Oxford Referendum Vote/Township Issues
As usual, I will be voting no. The Oxford School Board is seeking $2.3 million for improvements.
What would you have them do build / buy a completely brand facility or maintain the one they have. These improvements are normal and reasonable in order to maintain a building. There are also state mandates to comply with regarding security and ADA issues. The bottom line is vote in favor of this referendum. If you cannot afford the tax increase consider moving rather than stopping necessary improvements and progress that enable our children to be educated in a safe environment. As a reminder years ago other residents likely not here now paid for the education of your children and possibly grandchildren.
"As usual, I will be voting no. The Oxford School Board is seeking $2.3 million for improvements." As usual.....
But I have learned much from our conservative friends on how to view this....
It's $2.3M, money better well spent to provide legal assistance to illegals :>)
No, no, it's $915 per Oxford resident.....
No, no, let the people responsible pay: it's $8,185 per Oxford student.....
But wait, there's more....
The state will pick up 43% of the cost. Hold on, Bubbala, does that mean it's MY tax dollars? From an Oxford standpoint, if someone came to you and said: "you can have it for 43% off," would you jump at that deal?
Because at that rate, it's not $2.3M Oxford is picking up, it's only $1.2M and the rest of us around NJ pick up the $1.1M. So, Oxford only pays $485 per person, $4,300 per student. And we pay the other $3.200 per Oxford resident for them to cover.....
VOTE NO FOR YOUR STUDENTS: I don't want to chip in :>)
"Because she has no children"
Uh, no. That's not why. I will not vote "yes" for anything that will raise taxes, whether it be in my town or elsewhere in this State. The only thing I would vote "yes" to, is closing the school. Oxford needs to give serious consideration to sending their kids to White Twp. or Belvidere.
Oxford has close to zero ratables. Covanta is scheduled to close in April, and that will have a very serious impact on taxes. The simple answer is WE CAN"T AFFORD THIS!
Vote no because they don't manage their school budget efficiently, that's why, they have plenty of money to keep the schools running
In fact with the declining enrollments they should be lowering the property tax rates instead of increasing them They are literally dripping in ready-hand cash. They actually owe money back to the taxpayers. (and they know it)
Why should the town continue to pay for students who are no longer there? Even the state of New Jersey has figured out that they won't pay for students who are no longer there which is why the state aid numbers keep dropping. It's because of declining enrollments.
If you think this is 'all about the kids', I have a bridge to sell you. It's *NOT* about the kids, it's about BOEs and School Administrators being lazy and not doing their jobs correctly.
Townships all over NJ need to start consolidating and cutting expenses in other areas. When will the majority of people wake the hell up and say enough is enough? A few more dollars here, a few more dollars there.....
Point of sale card system? Who lets a young child in elementary school have a credit card?..maybe in middle or high school
Taxing is complicated, too complicated. It hides what the true costs are, like the lifetime total overcompensation of educators. Cancel retiree medical and 1.5 billion is freed up every year, but oh no you can't touch that; and if you do the "children" will be affected LOL...
Calico, your answer was in the article;
“If the referendum is approved, the school district said the state will cover 47 percent of the cost.”
Which aligns with “There are also state mandates to comply with regarding security and ADA issues.”
ADA stuff is usually ok as if at least makes sense. Security issues, on the other hand, are predominately wasted dollars because the limited though process used to justify main entrance security completely ignores every other means of entry (that includes forced entry, something that a would-be attacker wouldn't hesitate to exploit). But what main entry security does, far too well imo, is further program our kids that they are always and forever a suspected criminal and should remember, always, that they are to be treated as such.
Hello, welcome to HACKETTSTOWN life. We could care less about Oxford school system. We have our own problems with our own broken school system.
Oh man Iman, u b on fire today :>)
Hawk --- I though Oxford was growing.... sure looked like it last time I passed through.
"Oxford needs to give serious consideration to sending their kids to White Twp. or Belvidere."
Oxford kids attend Warren Hills HS, not Belvidere HS, so it wouldn't make any sense to merge them with either Belvidere or White Township school districts. Maybe they could join the WH Regional Middle School for grades 7-8, but Oxford would still need to handle K-6 internally, just like Franklin, Mansfield and the Washingtons do.
And if you look at enrollment in all the sending districts you could make a case for merging and consolidation to happen there as well. Mansfield alone is down 192 students in the last 4 years and the taxes are the same...so send Oxford to Mansfield and call it a day.
With a little over 100k residents, Warren County towns should consolidate. Rather than repair these aging structures merge with an adjacent town such as Belvidere.
And do the same with Police departments....why does every neighboring town need their "very own" police chief !!! ???
Whatever happened to the practice of budgeting for future infrastructure maintenance/upgrades
like err, the rest of us???
Another arcane approach:
No more debt.
Several towns voted down referendums yesterday regarding school improvement funding. It's about time!
Unfortunately, some approved them. So we are all on the hook for that.
Even the liberal upscale and well to do Cherry Hill district voted no to a 210 million dollar school board referendum. Even they know when to say enough is enough. Do they not care about thier kids in Cherry Hill? Really?
Looks like even the good progressive folks in Cherry Hill realize we shouldn't be paying for students who are no longer there :
CHERRY HILL, NJ —All three questions in the $210 million Cherry Hill Schools Bond Referendum failed during Tuesday's vote, according to unofficial results provided for the school district.
School district officials weren't available to comment on the results Tuesday night.
The first question proposed $49,734,143, including $18,757,043 in state funds, for a district-wide upgrade, renovation and expansion of schools including security upgrades and improvements; roof replacement and HVAC improvements and the addition of security vestibule entrances to Harte, Kingston, and Stockton elementary schools, and the Carusi and Rosa middle schools. It would also have included a conversion of the all-purpose room to a cafeteria and the construction of a new multi-purpose room at Johnson Elementary School.
The problem with New Jersey is that it is divided into so many smaller municipalities and townships, and they ALL have their own school. Which in turn raises taxes to pay for administrators, and teachers salaries.
I see some of you saying "the state will cover 40(ish)%, so we are getting a deal" I AM STILL A NJ RESIDENT, so either way the money comes out of my pocket!! I attended OCS, and I can tell you there isn't a need for this type of security, the crime rate in town doesn't call for it. Hire an officer to guard the main entrance, and cameras (which to my knowledge have been in place for years). I will be voting no.
Personally, I will vote against the assumption of ANY additional debt put forward in referendums for which I am eligible to vote.
Well said, Sarah. The 40% from the State still comes from us.
Eperot - April is the scheduled closing date. Their reason for closing is that they feel that location is not profitable enough for them. Their closing will have a huge effect on Oxford regarding taxes. The landfill, contrary to popular belief, is not located in Oxford. It's located in White Twp. Covanta closing will not cause the landfill to close.
"Well said, Sarah. The 40% from the State still comes from us."
Yeah, a small part of it. Like 1/565th of it, the majority comes from the other 564 municipalities.
If you want to protect the investment that you have made into your home, you should vote to support the schools. Oxford, NJ is not a retirement destination, no one comes here to die. So that leaves younger people to buy your abode (house) which probably has a yard and more than one bedroom. Sounds like a great place for a family, but wait, your schools suck and are falling apart. Too bad that family just bought a house in a different town with better schools, oh well I guess you will just have to keep lowering the price of your house until it sells.
I'll save a dime today by voting NO and lose ten grand or more down the road. Very smart.
Have a nice day.
"If you want to protect the investment that you have made into your home, you should vote to support the schools."
strawman argument. they haven't gone down since property values went down in '08. and since when is overspending on anything good for house value?
Property values are going to decrease anyway, and that decrease is going to get larger with higher interest rates-unless in urban, high paying job areas. This is not one of them.
It's the death spiral. Increased taxes, increased cost of living, increased amount of older workers not on the workforce, decreased income on the other side. The children are not going to be able to support the seniors at the standard of living they would like to have.
See the link below as a representative example of school spending vs results. Admittedly I pulled the first link I googled (not for NJ) so this is apples and oranges, but my recollection is that the trend is the same almost everywhere:
The first graph is the point of interest...
Raising taxes will cost you down the road. High taxes is why many buyers don't buy in New Jersey.
"High taxes is why many buyers don't buy in New Jersey."
And why so many are leaving as well.
Consider new companies relocating to NJ, and don't count companies that shuffle back and forth from NYC to the NJ "Gold Coast." Can you name any? Wonder why, well... you know the answers...
Some states are starting to realize they are losing the very people who are paying the bulk of the taxes and making some adjustments:
Tax Competition: So Powerful that even Politicians in Left-Wing States Feel Compelled to Cut Taxes for Rich People
" . . . . there’s plenty of evidence that income taxes cause migration from high-tax states to zero-income-tax states . . . "
"Why are governors and state legislators finally doing something sensible? Why are they lowering tax burdens on “rich” taxpayers instead of playing their usual game of class warfare?
I’d like to claim that they’re reading Cato Institute research, or perhaps studies from other market-oriented organizations and scholars.
But it appears that tax competition deserves most of the credit.
This tax-cutting trend has been fueled by competition between the states for affluent and wealthy taxpayers. Such residents owe income taxes every year, but some are willing to move out of state to avoid death duties that come only once. Since the federal estate-and-gift tax exemption jumped to $5 million in 2011, adjusted for inflation, state death duties have stood out.
I don’t fully agree with the above excerpt because there’s plenty of evidence that income taxes cause migration from high-tax states to zero-income-tax states."
They need to recount 380 votes? Why couldn't they just recount when they came up with a tie? It would take like five minutes, lol.
Wow! What are the chances of that? I really want to kick the 3 or 4 people I know that wanted to vote "no" and didn't make it to the polls. People have so many lame excuses. Grrrrrr!
Until NJ changes how we pay for public schools citizens will turn on one another basically the young vs. the old. Frankly funding education is as important as making Social Security and Medicare financially sound. My comment will start a good exchange. To bad most kids whose future is being debated here do not comment on this forum.
"Too bad most kids whose future is being debated here do not comment on this forum."
Between their homework and working at Shoprite they don't have enough time.
Then out of there measly paycheck they pay into Medicare and Social Security, both of which are insolvent and headed into bankruptcy, so essentially their money is taken from them and given to the older generation, who live longer and because of this, the amount they use exceeds what they have paid in.
Not to forget that all of the jobs the older generation suckled on are now being eliminated with technology and robots...
From the referendum description, the only thing that affects the students' future would be whether or not someone crazy breaks through the current front door security.
calico - we need to drive around and pick them up and bring them to the polls to help turn the tide.
If it truly is a tie vote the resolution does not pass and that means the spending referendum cannot be implemented
100% correct maja.
I'm keeping my fingers crossed that an extra "yes" vote is not suddenly found.
Anyone that votes YES for higher taxes to pay for school simply greatly overestimates the impact of the majority of people both young AND old on society in general.
Most people will end up pretty much the same as if they were taught with the same school building, teachers, administration, and textbooks from 30-40-50 years ago.
And this isn't even getting into the whole college debate/debacle that became a normalized and expected shackle in the last 40 years.
Yea, sure- money well spent for most people... oh wait, no- a large portion of people end up working jobs outside of their major. And most peoples jobs simply fill a task in one way or another, but are just that. When they move on or age out someone else will fill the slot. Wasted time, classes, books, money, pointless filler.
The kids that are capable and inclined to succeed will do so regardless of all this spending. The rest will float along same as always no matter what you spend on them.
"Most people will end up pretty much the same as if they were taught with the same school building, teachers, administration, and textbooks from 30-40-50 years ago."
Possibly true, within the same school district in the same socioeconomic environment.
Not if those students are sent to schools like Delbarton- you do get what you pay for with many of the elite private schools.
Then out of there measly paycheck they pay into Medicare and Social Security, both of which are insolvent and headed into bankruptcy, so essentially their money is taken from them and given to the older generation, who live longer and because of this, the amount they use exceeds what they have paid in.
The SS monies were "taken by our government", most have no idea......That's where the monies went !!!
They put Bernie Madoff in jail for doing what they did to us !!
Whats going to happen to the legions of people with no savings or pension who have to live off of the meager Social Security amounts? Are we the most advanced country, surely not for the old...
A very good question. I guess it's going to depend on the amount of empathy we have for our fellow Americans.
Time will tell.
Empathy from whom, to tax greater to cover it, to tax the workers for the"retired"?
Let's be honest, this country would just like them to work until 70-75 and die shortly after; we are no longer a country with Golden Years for at least 1/2 of Americans...
There are cheaper places to live outside of NJ...where retirees flock to
Someone mentioned earlier today that recounts are not allowed for tied referendum ballots, only on ballots between two candidates. Anyone know if this is true? Tried Googling and am only coming up with info on candidates, nothing on referendums.
There will be a time when the only people who can afford to stay in NJ will be the well off or those with publicly provided defined pensions, social security and defined health care benefits. In the private sector those defined benefits do not exist for the majority of us anymore. Social Security alone will not work without sizable personal savings.
social security was never designed to be a stand alone pension
Calico696, I heard that on wrnj yesterday. A tie vote on a question vote defers to a no result. No recount will be done!
thank the good lord for a little bit of sanity out there in Oxford, resolution is *NOT* passed. Good!
A small victory for the hard pressed taxpayers, i'm lovin' it.
Property taxes are killing NJ and forcing many people to leave. What also needs to be done is to rein in public pensions and healthcare benefits. Real reforms in these two areas alone will help restore fiscal sanity to our state.
Yep, and NOTHING is done. Just verbalizing that "Promises" made decades ago must be supported. Is NJ for the public workers or for everyone???
"There will be a time when the only people who can afford to stay in NJ will be the well off or those with publicly provided defined pensions, social security and defined health care benefits."
In other words only the Senior citizens and the Baby Boomers.
Everyone else has 401k's, 2 part time jobs without health insurance, and a 60 year old house they paid 375k for that smells like Chesterfields and cabbage, has a pink toilet, comes complete with a 8k dollar tax bill (capped at 2%) while the debt owed to the retirees has topped 100 billion dollars, or approximately 20+ Trump border walls.
Jono, no matter what state you live in, if you are planning to retire on Social Security.....really bad plan.
Fortunately I do not need Social Security but I will take it because like everyone else I paid into it.
Sadly, it's all some people have, which is one of the reasons why the referendum vote in Oxford didn't pass.
I'm so glad it failed, score one for the beleaguered taxpayers.
Oxford is not a high income area, the typical taxpayer cannot afford the current taxes much less an increase.
Many township (Oxford) people are whining on social media about wanting a re-vote. Sound familiar? The lack of ability to accept failure is astounding these days. In one sentence they say there needs to be a re-vote and then in another about how they, their spouse, their neighbor etc. just couldn't get to the polls.
Elections have consequences for sure.
It is just their selfish POV, if you have kids in school in Oxford you need every little bit of help, whether true or perceived to be true, so that your child doesn't end up at Walmart, Target, or Home Depot...
I agree. The people that missed the boat shouldn’t be forced to pay for those that didn’t.
Funny.. never saw any of you "Vote no" people at a regular meeting or a referendum informational meeting. You have no idea of what is going on or why things happen..Many of you are showing your ignorance. Shame on you and anyone who voted no.
How would you know who you saw and who you didn't? I am at the Township committee meeting every single month, are you? Probably not, since there is usually less than 10 people there. I went to the informational meeting, at the school, on January 8th. I also spoke to Mr. Magnuson privately and read the informational flyer that came in my mailbox. And yes, I still voted no. So please don't say that I don't know what is going on. I know more about what is going on in this town than 3/4 of the people that live here.
Shame on you for telling anyone else how they should vote. Although I disagree with your "yes" vote, you are entitled to it and I certainly wouldn't call you ignorant for voting for your personal choice. To personally attack people, by calling them ignorant for voting differently than you, is pretty ignorant.
I never told anyone how to vote.. never. I attend both township and many school meetings so if you ever attended one (school meeting) you will understand what I am talking about when I say I know who attends and who doesn't.
It's great that you know more than 3/4 of the people in this town. Perhaps you should use some of your "knowledge" and get involved and run for the school board and or the committee so everyone can share in your vast knowledge.
I meant I know more about what goes on because I seek the information. I never said I was "smarter" than anyone else. If you attend meetings then you probably know who I am. Feel free to approach me and my husband who both voted no. We would be happy to discuss with you in more detail why we voted no and our thoughts on the Township in general. Much better to speak face to face than on a forum board.
I wish more people would get involved on some level in this town, in any way they can. So few people show up for anything that goes on. The same 5 or 6 people volunteer for everything. Where is everyone else? There was a meeting last week regarding pedestrian and bicycle traffic in town. The NJDOT was there along with an engineering firm. Besides the three town council members, a police officer and the township engineer, it was myself and three other business owners and/or residents. That's where the real shame is.
Uh oh... bicycle lanes and "pedestrian-friendly" transportation modes are how the Illuminati plan to enslave Americans. Everybody knows that (-;
Huh - The township meetings are the third Wednesday of every month at 7 pm. The website is http://www.oxfordtwpnj.org
"Uh oh... bicycle lanes and "pedestrian-friendly" transportation modes are how the Illuminati plan to enslave Americans.Uh oh... bicycle lanes and "pedestrian-friendly" transportation modes are how the Illuminati plan to enslave Americans."
Well, not sure about that, but it could help with the obesity epidemic.
I don't think I've ever seen a pedestrian in Oxford :)
And Mr. Johnson, you didn't tell anyone how to vote. You just insulted everyone who doesn't vote the way you want them to. Or tried to insult. I'm sure nobody spent a second caring.
just a heads up, this is coming to Hackettstown this November:
February 5, 2019 in HHS Media Center at 7 pm
Discussion regarding Debt Service November 2019 Ballot Question
BOE will be looking to get a referendum on the Nov Ballot. There is a public meeting scheduled for next Tuesday to discuss what they are looking to do. Funny with all the robo calls I've been getting from the schools this week I haven't gotten one announcing this special meeting. Agenda just went up on the BOE's website today.
Lions do not bother themselves with the opinions of sheep
Since the January referendum failed to pass, the Oxford BOE is coming up with another one to be voted on in November.
There is a meeting at 7:00 on Thursday 4/11, in the school library, to discuss the details.
man oh man Calico, they just don't get it do they, Time to get all the good citizens to the polls to send them a stronger message that the BOE is out of touch with the community that elected them.
WOW! how stupidly stubborn are these wonks anyways
The same could be said for Hackettstown and Great Meadows. Spending is out of control. There is no accountability in where the money goes.
Many people on this post are either not residents of Oxford, or have shown severe bias towards children who graduate from the school. As someone who graduated from Oxford, I have to disagree with you all. Many of the students who have gone to this school have gone on to graduate high school, occasionally choosing Blair over WHRHS. These students have gone to Ivy League schools, and have become your children's educators, doctor's, accountant's, and more. I actually feel as though I received a better education from Oxford than I would have throughout schooling in the surround towns, especially the middle school. Yes, tax increases are never ideal. But, in order to restore Oxford, these students need to be safe and taken care of. It is unfortunate that the vote went the way it did, and I accept that that is the case. I just don't think that this is a place where people's bias on a town should be shown. This is about a school, not your opinions on the people in the town.
"But, in order to restore Oxford, these students need to be safe and taken care of."
I invite you to re-read what I wrote above, at least these 2 mains points-
Most people will end up pretty much the same as if they were taught with the same school building, teachers, administration, and textbooks from 30-40-50 years ago.
The kids that are capable and inclined to succeed will do so regardless of all this spending. The rest will float along same as always no matter what you spend on them
My apologies if you think I am against spending money on education because I am not. I want the superintendent and BOE to be spend our tax dollars on things that matter to education. I would ask that they spend the money that the taxpayers give them wisely. Often times that is not the case and then they ask for more tax dollars. I live on a fix income so I do not spend money that I do not have. I do not ask my kids for money. Why do they continue to ask for more from the taxpayer?
"Why do they continue to ask for more from the taxpayer?"
Because they don't ask, and they don't care if you said no anyway. They will do what they want- and put you in jail if you don't comply.
They will literally spend the money you work for, with no care in the world about whether it is wasted or needless...will line their own pockets and retirement...and if you don't pay- men with guns will come and take you away.
The men making the rules to take your money are paid by that same money.
The men enforcing the rules are paid by the same money.
The 'judge' enforcing those rules is paid by not only stolen (tax) money but also benefits by finding people guilty. Same for any other infractions, car or otherwise...
Oxford is trotting out the school referendum again in November. Time to vote it down, again.
I am with you calico. Vote no on November 6th!
This makes me so angry!!! These brats have the nerve to ask taxpayers for heat! Not in this lifetime. State will pay for almost half of it? I don’t care. Heat breaks in the future? Rub two sticks together. Learn real skills like outdoor survival. Can’t they do better than a 3% interest rate? This is Trump’s economy money is practically free. I’m voting no!
They say "Oh, it's only $106 more dollars per year". Down from $130, or whatever, per year on the last referendum. While $106 is not an exorbitant amount of money, it's still MORE money. People need to pull out their tax bills and remind themselves how much money in school tax was already paid this year. It's another $106 here, another $57 there, oh and another $85 over there. Gas tax, rain tax, next will be a breathing tax. Trenton needs to be held accountable for what they are doing with all of our tax dollars they already collected. I personally won't be voting yes for any tax increase, for anything, even if it's $1. This "think of the children", agenda has to stop. Wasteful spending needs to be cut. Consolidation needs to happen. Administrative salaries need to be cut. No, no and more no from me.
Ok, rant over. ;-)
You get em calico. We don’t need more money for the school. Oxford is already paying for a new ambulance and since the town is filled mostly with us elderly folks, we are going to need It! I don’t want young families moving in! The town is fine the way it is! Vote no November 6th
VOTE FOR DANA!!!!
I'll be your chump in charge on your days off!!
F these guys, and all the other guys !!
God help you all if I ran the world- it certainly would be shaken up.
But for the better!!
Since I started this with God help you- how about making churches pay tax?
Land, donations (theft of ignorants), salary, you name it- EVERYTHING.
Then how about something simple- ROADS!
Make it required by the contracted builders to last a LONG time period, and be required to the builder to either last or be repaired out of THEIR pocket for that period. and if failure, they not only fix for duration, but do NOT get a 2nd contract for the next duration.
Other countries have great roads, at nowhere near the cost or time spent (again robbed)
Just those 2 things- church & road cost a LOT. Time to drop the hammer.
and that is not even getting to schools- which I would clean house!! Think about the kids indeed!!!
Here is what I think about the kids- nothing has changed in a kids brain for many hundreds if not thousands of years. Throwing everyone else's livelihoods and security at it changes NOTHING!! Anyone that thinks otherwise is a dumbass.
If anything- money saved by not raping homeowners for vapid screen addicted ignoramuses will allow more people to have more money to spend on goods (taxed), dinners (taxed), vehicles (taxed), and not leave the state!!!
Uggh. Wake up people!!
Yes josh. That is the way to think! I only graduated 8 grade and my life was great! Worked at the ox wall cite for 32 years. There are plenty of jobs like these today. Kids are just too lazy and filled with dreams of pencil pushing. People these days have to stop coddling there kids with comfort and fancy educations. School gets you nothing but libral ideas. When people start to realize that there is no moving up in this world they will be happier. You are who you are. Live with it and stop making me pay for your dreams. Why don’t Dana run for office? She has so many good ideas that are wasted online.
Well if those are not two good explanations and examples to get an education I don’t know what would be.
"School gets you nothing but libral ideas." It also gets you the ability to spell words like liberal.
Well this got ugly real fast,
Vote no on the referendum. They have plenty of money to fix the school. Let them make better use of the money they already have.
"Vote no on the referendum. They have plenty of money to fix the school. Let them make better use of the money they already have."
"I will not vote "yes" for anything that will raise taxes, whether it be in my town or elsewhere in this State. The only thing I would vote "yes" to, is closing the school. Oxford needs to give serious consideration to sending their kids to White Twp. or Belvidere." Well, at least Calico has an alternative. And I thank you in advance for your approx. $1M in State Funds that now will be used outside of Oxford. Hopefully we can get some new common picnic tables at HTown Pool, bilingual of course. Personally, I think the entire town of Oxford should be merged with a decent town, there's nothing of value in Oxford for families anyway.
"This "think of the children", agenda has to stop. Wasteful spending needs to be cut. Consolidation needs to happen. Administrative salaries need to be cut" No joke to that sentiment Calico. I say abandon the town municipal offices, close the library, get rid of the open spaces, just close it all down and merge with another township. I mean you're paying for a Youth Association -- who needs it, and the Young at Heart Club -- come on, no one is young at heart there, Oxford hates kids. There's a couple of million taxpayer dollars that can be pruned in administrative costs for this crap if they just merge with some other town, hopefully one that cares about costs, taxes, and citizens. For example, if you don't have open spaces, you don't need to pay thousands for upkeep of docks, playgrounds and the like. Just sell the land, sell the lake, make some money. And speed bumps....you paid for speed bumps --- how stupid is that? Better yet for the lake, just dump the sewage in the lake and save another million bucks. $200,00 for a fire truck, who needs it, there are plenty of fire companies around in other towns.
Calico says: "I am at the Township committee meeting every single month, are you?.... I know more about what is going on in this town than 3/4 of the people that live here." How is that going for you? Made much progress with your year of involvement? Seems that no one listens to you at all.
Perhaps there is hope. Yeah, that's the ticket --- merge with Hope --- they have a nice town! JUST SAY NO to ALL TAXES.
SD -You really should save your breath, or your fingers. It probably took you over a 1/2 hour to type all that nonsense of twisting someone else's words.
BTW - You apparently listened, or read, what I had to say, because you replied.
A spot on assessment, SD! I would have to think that calico would agree to a small tax to improve the bar at the firehouse though.
LOL, Fred. Nope, not even $1 for that tax. A donation, of course, would be a different story. :-)
5 minutes, tops. these fingers fly, no wonder the tomes they are a longer.... :>) And how did I twist your exact words? What was the twist --- looked pretty spot on to me, and at least one dude named Fred.
Sorry for the sarcasm, just wondered how you could spend that much time and not get anything done. And what would Oxford be like if we farmed it all out to another township.... Fact is, I am all for regionalizing schools at the county level. This local crap just creates problems like this for no advantage. It's not like Oxford is a seedbed of innovation that would ever be copied by anyone else. So what's the point of local micromanagement. Consolidated we could hire less, more experienced, competent, and even dare I say, more expensive talent to provide for our future.
Fred, thank you and funny, but perhaps not to all..... If Calico or anyone thought about it, the questions might be:
1. do the repairs need to be made (after two years, sure looks probable)
2. is the price fair, what's the warranty (see HHS roof....)
3. are there any conflicts like hiring the mayor's cousin for the job
I don't think, IMO, much else comes into play including "they already have the money, they just need to quit wasting it," which demands the author to prove the waste, not just charge it willy-nilly. Or, we already pay to much in taxes. Perhaps, but in school taxes, we don't ----- comparatively speaking ---- especially given the returns. Or the famed "if we give them this, they will just ask for more." Considering, at best over the past two years, they batted 500, this is a 50/50 chance at best. And if it fails, they are batting zero so NTW.
It's $100 and, like I said, Oxford folks are pretty good about not repeating or escalating these taxes.
"the first free taxpayer-supported public school in North America, the Mather School, was opened in Dorchester, Massachusetts, in 1639" source: WIKI. And they had heat.
Well at least we know how Josh and RC feel about children. Vapid screen addicted ignoramuses? Damn that's harsh..
Realistically, the State of Confusion(my name for NJ under Gov. Overbite), should eliminate the Education contribution part of property tax for any tax payer over 65 years old.
A $250 current credit for that segment of the taxpaying population is just not enough. I would prefer a system where if you don't have children in school you don't have to pay school taxes, but that is never going to happen.
I can totally understand why many people in retirement age or close are looking to leave this State of Confusion(NJ). Between property taxes and services declining, why stay? (I hope to stay, it is a great state)
I am inching my way toward that thinking each year I creep towards the inevitable retirement age.
TRA - Can you imagine a world where people only paid for what they needed and/or used? I wonder how many "yes" votes there would be if the cost burden fell only on the people who voted "yes".
Never going to happen, and not saying it should, but it would be pretty awesome.
You guys are looking at it wrong... people don't pay for their kid(s) public school education, they pay for their own, which was fronted to them by previous taxpayers.
Take, for example, a child starting school today... with an average annual expenditure of $20k per year, that child will owe $240k to the taxpayers upon graduating high school. (Overly simplified, since that 20,000 will likely be 25,000 twelve years from now.)
If he pays $6k per year in school taxes at some point after that, it will take him 40 years to pay it off. And each child will have the same responsibility, whether he comes from a family of 1 or a family of 8.
If we are paying for our own education then the argument that we are being “ripped off” is even more true, isn’t it?
I mean, if you listen to anyone today you’ll hear that our generation is inferior because we didn’t spend all the money then that we *must* spend now, because money=a better education. Our teachers were paupers (paid next to nothing, abused, few benefits, walked on, etc), our classrooms were overcrowded, we segregated learners by where they were on the learning scale, etc.
That being the case, we should be paying significantly less today for our education because we were provided - fronted - such an incredibly inferior education... ;-)
Yeah, but interest rates were much higher back then, so the "vig" is a lot higher as well. You should have refinanced (-;
Let them make better use of the money they already have. Vote No. They have all the money they need. Vote no.
How do you know, caringmom? I’m trying to decide for myself with facts. If you can’t prove it, I might have to vote yes.
I still don't agree with ianimal's logic. Levying taxes just goes against the property owners based upon their assessment plus a general levy at the state level (state taxes) for retirement medical and pensions. Who here stays in the same town they grew up in for 40 years and is single -- remember if there is a wife then 40 years turns into 80 years to pay it back LOL...
IMHO basically all government expenses are borrowed one way our the other. How this is paid back depends on the taxes an individual pays, some pay more, some pay less, some pay none...
I am a vote for yes.
Ask yourself this question: Is Oxford a retirement community?
Chances are your answer is no. So, if the next person to buy your house isn't going to use it as God's waiting room, then who is moving in? If you have a multiple bedroom house; chances are a family, who will want a good school for their kids. If your school is falling apart, then it is less attractive which equates to less value in the biggest investment you have*. Invest in yourself and vote yes.
Have a nice day.
*in most cases
I can't believe how many people are still missing the point here. We (NJ homeowners) pay so much already. What is the state doing with all of the school tax money we have already sent them? Why hasn't that money been used over the years to keep up on things the schools needs. This is not just an Oxford issue, it's a NJ issue. Trenton needs to be held accountable.
Actually you are voting against fixing the school buildings and other capital assets; this is your rationale is that lets you make it though the night :>) Except for your venom over taxes, it has nothing to do with operating costs --- frankly, this expenditure will probably lower those..... But hey...
While a bond might be considered a tax, it is not the property tax. Property tax is used for operating costs; bonds are used for capital improvements.
So, let's be clear: you are against any capital improvements for your schools. Cool. By definition, if your neighbors agree with you, your schools will crumble. It's called physics.
Twist, twist twist. Always trying to make people look like the "bad guy". SMH
I'm not against improvements. I want the money that every tax payer has already paid to the state, in the way of school taxes, to pay for it. NO NEW TAXES PERIOD! GET IT? NO NEW TAXES!!!!!
Our elected officials need to be sent a message. Gross mismanagement of funds is the greatest downfall in this state. Vote out every incumbent running in November.
Yeah, them facts are spin....
You can’t use property taxes for capital improvements in the process I believe.
You want less taxes and zero capital improvements. The physics of that mantra is the decaying capital assets which adds maintenance costs to operating budget, ie property taxes, and ultimately higher capital expense and the asset crumbles away.
As I said, the real question is: does the HVAC system need improvement. Is the price fair Your vote says no. Just say no to all expenditures might be short-sighted without those answers. But you don’t care, you just don’t want to spend.
“By definition, if your neighbors agree with you, your schools will crumble. It's called physics”
Holy hell no.
Everyone can say no and the schools won’t crumble. What an ignorant statement. Be careful or people will believe you.
Saying no just stops more money being stolen- it doesn’t magically stop the current level of theft nor give back to the people.
Just like the gas tax- and robbed transportation fund= they already take our money, they don’t need more. They need to do a better job with what they have (which is already too much).
What utter nonsense, school bonds are paid for with property taxes. Oxford has paid enough money in taxes already for the school to be fixed. They don't need any extra money. What they need is to be smarter with the money they already have.
Vote no on the referendum. It has ready been rejected by the tax paying public. They keep coming back with hat in hand saying "What about the children"
Give me a break already, vote no.
I am loving this! This is what we need a tax rebellion. Let the school crumble on top of the little brats. Make the staff take pay cuts if they want heat. Its about time the brats started to learn a trade and sell there wears. Schools need to operate like a business. Why can’t they make a profit. No more free rides! Get a job kid I’m on a fixed income.
Caringmom, yes, you are right, in a way. Bonds are not the tax, Bond servicing is the tax. Mix/nox, I’ll give this one to you.
Hey, if you don’t want to fix the hvac, vote no.
But sure as heck you will not pay that freight at 100% out of your operating budget and can you still get the 40% state funds that way.
And yes, Josh, at some point all things crumble. It’s the nature of the universe. Will the HVAC fail? Who knows. No one can even address what’s needed and is the price fair for that. We got moon to be baying at. No new taxes, whatever is is, I’m against it. Baaaaay
Wonder what they even want the money for?
"But sure as heck you will not pay that freight at 100% out of your operating budget and can you still get the 40% state funds that way."
40% of the "state" funds? Where do you think "state" funds come from? That's 100% our money.
I think State funds come from the State, of which Oxford is a part. Hope that helps ;-)
My point was the bond version gets 40% from State funds which are clearly beyond Oxfords yearly contribution. And I just don’t know if you can get the 40% otherwise. Perhaps you know.
But I do agree that pass ir flunk, either way you’re sunk. Cuz it’s Oxford and that ain’t no place for kids. At least in ruralconservativea unneighborhood.
Education has not benefitted greatly from the automation in many sectors over the last 20+ years. As such, it is heavily labor intensive and costs rise every year.
Why is reform off the table? The NJEA makes sure reform is off the table. In the words of the great Chris Christie, it makes no sense for the have nots paying for the haves. The average taxpayer does not have a pension nor do they have retiree medical. And the current medical system has so many different plans, consolidating to one would save money.
By voting your right, and to vote "NO" to any tax increase you express your wishes, that the public sector make the cuts, improvements, innovation to work within current budgets. Without such a "push" you think anything will ever change?
If it passes, just make sure you don’t hire the firm that installed the HVAC system when they built the new Great Meadows Middle School. It was less than a year old it and it cost around $750,000 to fix it. They decided it would cost more in legal fees and time to go after the Contractor. That’s what happens when in most cases you have to go with the lowest bid.
If we want to save money cut Social Security, medicare and the other safety net programs. Cut back on the military while you are at it. Don't forget to cut back on the veterans along with the widows and orphans. Cut back on the all the programs except mine and the ones that will benefit me in the future. Oh we won't have them anyway because the kids without an education will not be able to compete in the global market and it will not matter anyway. If our society turns on everyone except those who can vote today we are doomed. Hey I got mine to hell with everyone else.
Is their even a law saying we have two teech kids. Can’t we say no and they will have to moove out of town if they want to bee teeched
Carrot on a stick spending:
Read all of Ruralconservative‘s posts JimL; he’s just playing with everyone to see which nerve he/she can hit.
It’s amost like watching MSM news ;-)
A education that I payed for. How do I benefit from that. I’m so angry the world isn’t the same as it was when I was younger. I’m going to vote to make sure the next generation pays for my anger.
There are many words to describe Ruralconservative but politeness prevents me from providing any examples. All I will say is short sighted selfish people like him is one of the reasons why the USA is in trouble.
"Read all of Ruralconservative‘s posts JimL; he’s just playing with everyone to see which nerve he/she can hit."
Which is the reason posts like that should be ignored. :-)
With all this verbiage, all this emotion, does anyone know why they are requesting the money?
Does the HVAC and driveway need fixing?
Is the price fair?
I mean I understand taxes are too high, just say no, we pay enough, I am old and don't have kids...… but doesn't the fact remain that something is broken and needs fixing?
Or is this a boondoggle?
"40% of the "state" funds? Where do you think "state" funds come from? That's 100% our money."
All of it is our money, and they already have too much of it, vote no.
Jono are you on crack? Social Security and Medicare are paid for. If you look at the deductions from your paycheck and then compare it to what you will get in retirement it is not that generous when compared to the minimal funds deducted for public workers pensions. No medicaid is a safety net and should exist for the truly needy. The issue arises when, for lack of a better word, people are lazy and prefer not to work than work when the system allows for this behavior.
SD - I posted what it's for a week ago. Go back to my post with the pic from last week.
Well.....yes, I did read that and it's a great list.
Does not really answer:
1. Is the repair warranted
2. Is the price fair.
I mean I get all the reasons not to pay anything more, but let's be fair ---- "just say no" is a knee-jerk reaction based on emotion and a blind singular choice in a short-sighted binary world without any analytical calculation as to the request and the expected result, he said as if he never did that himself before :>). Of course, we all get our back up --- mine's for Federal deficit and debt and I am on fire this year.....most certainly in a just-say-no mood Federally.... But it's sort of like zero-based budgeting --- sure, sounds grand --- and may be just the thing for our moment, Federally speaking for example --- but as a Constitutional amendment is about as stupid as you get. I mean the States have it and then skirt it via capital asset exceptions as well as other exceptions basically defeating the balanced budget, if desired. So, they really don't have it, they kind-a have it. Can you imagine if you ran your house that way ---- oop's, I misspoke, you wouldn't have a house, you would rent for life... Government is the same way ---- sometimes there is a reason to take a loan, float a bond. Just say no does not cover that, matter of fact, it defeats it.
So, before you say no, shouldn't you ask ---
1 do we need the hvac, paving/sidewalk repairs, door hw, etc. etc.?
= is it really broken, inconvenience or dangerous
= is the timing right, can we wait
2. is the price fair?
Isn't that what one should really know BEFORE one just say's no, or yes? I mean I got no problem with people questioning $1M for HVAC alone much less another $1M for all the other potentially pork-barrel items. I do have an issue with "just say no" because you feel the rest is unfair, you are put-upon, and you have had enough. To me, that's a knee-jerk to the nth degree.
Good posts though. Except for that one Russian stirring the pot, after smoking it apparently.
“All I will say is short sighted selfish people like him is one of the reasons why the USA is in trouble”
Short-sightedness is everywhere today. Now if things like debt, deficits, SWIFT, petro-dollar, etc, and the general (predatory) nature of our economic system were discussed more often then I’d say that’s not true. But since those topics are never to be discussed...yes, I agree, short-sightedness abounds...
ijay don't you get it that everything will be on the table including those sacred cows. There is no money for education or anything else for that matter. If you want this country to survive everyone must share the pain and be part of the solution. Who do you think will pay for future benefits and other government expenses if the kids do not get a good balanced education so they can compete on the global stage. It is that simple guy. What do you not understand..................
Jono - You sound like just one more person who is asleep at the switch. Violins please.....
Calico you are one angry person. All you do is insult or attack anyone you disagree with. Your never offer workable solutions and pay no attention to the facts going on around you. Hey you got yours. To hell with everybody else.
"40% of the "state" funds? Where do you think "state" funds come from? That's 100% our money."
While yes this is an accurate statement, one thing that is missed with this agrument is the state is going to spend this money regardless. So residents need to ask do we want our state tax money to go back into our town or have it go to another school district. Go look at Phillipsburg's High School and see how much of our state tax money went there. The state is not going to stop spending money its just a question of where that state money goes. If residents here don't want state money, there will always be towns that do.
Jono - I'm not angry at all, just sick of people acting like sheep. If the government says it's in our best interest, it must be true. Right? Other people say, "Oh, I don't pay attention to that stuff" when you bring up these types of issues. Some figure their vote doesn't matter, therefore allowing others to choose for them.
There are roughly 2,600 people who live in Oxford. Granted some of them are not of voting age, but only 380 votes were cast in the last referendum attempt. Why is that? See paragraph above.
I've given my idea of a solution several times in this thread. Trenton needs to be held accountable for how tax dollars are spent. Wasteful spending needs to be cut. People keep electing the same crooks over and over and over. It's maddening.
Hot dang, I do declare that Dana is on fire today boy. Dropping truth on the echo chamber, the people with the power to make the changes we need. I agree, make those Oxford brats pay for the Trenton politician’s mistakes. How dare those sheeeple want an education for their children. There should only be private, vocational schools. Vote no November 6th!
The issue is not only where our tax dollars really go, another is *how* schools are funded.
I wish I had the answer but I’ve heard solutions that are worth looking at. Not sure anything will change in my lifetime.
2 thoughts come to mind-
#1- throwing money at a school will NOT make smarter or more successful children.
The kids with the aptitude, willingness, tenacity even- will succeed with the same schooling, both in building, textbooks and teachers from 50 years ago or more.
The ones that want to blow off studying, cut class, mack on chicks, smoke, whatever..are going to do it regardless.
You can't force success despite all the will in the world. Stop lying to yourself or believing the media and politicians with their own agenda.
#2- How schools are funded. Easy- a tiny tax on anything directly related to children. So those that have kids are paying for the kids.
I can't remember where I heard it- but I recall a supposed study that said so much was spent on kids that a single penny tax on anything related to them purchased would pay for all the schooling above and beyond what is already happening.
I can't vouch for that- but I think that ALL taxes (that can be compartmentalized) should be paid for 100% (and not pilfered) by whatever the users of said product and tax go to. So yea- gas tax should only be for roads (and roads should be built both better and at less cost). Schools should be paid by parents buying kid stuff, etc.
Yes Josh, the tax on childrens items was one that I had heard about. Not sure what the long term implications would be, if any.
Jono, US education is at the middle in comparison to education around the world. Rather than throw money at it, reinvent it. The current approach needs an overhaul.
The people relying on school to babysit their children after hours with programs "outside of education"....need to pony up and pay for these activities.
Wow.....and I thought the HvAC needed repair, the driveway and doors too.
You have presented some great reasons why they shouldn’t be and some fantastic solutions.
I think parents with kids or wanting kids would be wise to your advise and just avoid Oxford. Probably better for everyone that way.
Ok Jono I get you. My point with more clarification. Some areas of public spending are MORE excessive than others. An across the board cut (which might in fact be ok in the initial round as there is fat everywhere) would not to be followed up by strategic cuts. For example, why should the NJ taxpayers be paying for public worker pensions and retiree medical when the norm is 401Ks and no retiree medical. As a side note, I am for medical for everyone but not this way where the non-public worker taxpayers do not have the same high level of benefit.
"Uh public workers pay for their medical benefits"
He's talking about retirees. The majority of which, do not pay for their lifetime medical benefits.
We certainly need to get that solved before we fix the HVAC, driveways, and doors. Just say no to school repairs; fix the pension and benefit system first!
Oxford forever...…….just don't bring the kids!!!
I believe the retiree medical is costing the taxpayers at the state level 3 billion per year or about 10% of the state budget, workers don't prepay a dime. Project this coverage for all NJ residents or none is the fair way to go.
I believe he is referring to how our tax dollars are foolishly distributed. If they weren't, our pockets wouldn't be constantly raided for an HVAC unit here and a new gym floor there.
Which is what I have been trying to say. If the people who work for us, spending our money, in Trenton were held more accountable NJ would be a much happier place to be for many. Maybe less people wouldn't be retiring elsewhere as well.
EXACTLY Calico. Excessive numbers of public workers and excessive compensation for them apparently COMES FIRST! Then every little expense needs begging top cover when in fact routine maintenance and improvements should already be budgeted...
Ah, so vote down HVAC, fixing driveways, doors and such until we solve World Hunger. Convenient rationale; I am pretty sure taxes will never be low enough to change your minds.
Who cares if it’s needed, fairly priced, and may even reduce operating costs. You don’t know. You don’t even want to know. Fix everything else first or else.
If you win, you can continue to do absolutely nothing about the rest and Oxford can remain a great place to not have kids. Your taxes will continue to be too high until the day you die; that will never change.
Middle aged women without kids can be so bitter.
Doesn't everyone have a budget for your family? Governments need the same albeit they are more complicated. Government budgets should represent ALL. Unions have pushed their interests to the front of the line for many decades.
Doesn't your family take any loans in order to immediately get things they don't have the cash for that have a longer life span than it takes to repay the loan?
What does a Union have to do with the sidewalks at Oxford elementary?
This is a false equivalency. Unions have absolutely nothing to do with the Oxford HVAC needing to be repair. Take your bully to another pulpit.
Now if you can tell us the HVAC repair is warranted or not, or that the price is fair or not -------> then you got something to add. Otherwise --- hot air.
Yes, SD. But, it is all about the AMOUNT of loans, the AMOUNT of outstanding loans, the percentage of income to pay debt service (going up every year). Do you get my point? At some point there is so much in debt that it can't be paid back realistically, like with the pensions. Benefits promised but never funded, hoping that magic or just "you have to pay" to cover in the future. Understand?
"Doesn't your family take any loans in order to immediately get things they don't have the cash for that have a longer life span than it takes to repay the loan?"
No, not really. Unless you count my house.
And if and when my family- or any other family does- we don't expect everyone else to pay for our choices. Much less *force* them to pay.
"No, not really. Unless you count my house."
Same here, and that's almost paid off.
Just wondering, how many people on this thread actually live in Oxford?
iJay, does Oxford school district carry a high burden or debt or are you denying the children based on the State debt?
Of course Josh, I would include the house although I am surprised you don't run an auto loan too. Congrats, I have always paid cash myself, but sure takes some budgeting… Force is a funny word for a Democratic Republic that you are a citizen of that follows the rule of law conducted through your duly elected, by the people, representative and, in this case, two ratified Constitutions which specify that citizens can expect taxation. So it is taxation with representation according to the Constitution. If you see force it that, there are a number of remedies to relieve your angst.
But you miss the point: the point is that homeowners take loans just like the State or Local governments. Debt can be OK, too much debt is really bad. Matter of fact, I often take an accidental loan from the government. The interest charged on missing taxes is currently .5% per month for unpaid taxes IF you file on time. That's better than a bank rate! In over a dozen cases, have yet to be charged a penalty!
I do not live in Oxford, but my input has been basically to point out you are making your decision without bothering to know whether you 1) need the repairs, 2) that the price is fair. Neither of which you seem to know or care to address. Actually, most people do not live in Oxford.
Do you live in Hackettstown, oh poster who questions those not living where you do?
I really hope you all do make the right choice for your local school decision and that the choice is based on truly needed repairs with fair prices versus what the state has done to you historically, whether you have kids, or some other rationale that has little to do with the question. I mean do you really expect the State to rise up and change because Oxford voted down fixing the sidewalks..... NBLikely. It is a meaningless gesture that only makes you feel better. Has no effect except to continue having broken stuff in need of repair.
My opinion is that property taxes would need to not go up a dime for 10 years to get it reasonably high compared to other states. I know this is highly unlikely, but just pointing out the problem. Solution? Well, the status quo will not get us anywhere except for annual property tax increases...
Yea, Rutgers moving to the Big 10 was a major mistake. The football team has been out scored 135-7 over the last 4 games. I also think Maryland should have stayed in the ACC.
Asking how many people actually lived in Oxford was a question out of curiosity, it wasn't meant to say that people can't have an opinion if they don't live here. Of course they can have an opinion on it. I asked because I wanted to know how many people were being reached that are actually going to vote on this. That's all.
Those in office must realize that these capital improvements/maintenance issues will arise and should plan accordingly.
Can’t do that?
Shouldn’t be in office.
Stymie brings up a good point, however, given the nature of balanced budgeting, it's impossible to have a zero-based budget WITH all capital improvements covered. You can't be zero-based and bank money for a rainy day.
7.5 people and a donkey Calico; and 10% will vote, plus the donkey.... :>)
Ijay, as soon as you can steal all the pension money back, I will have my 1,000 votes :>)
Fun facts, especially given Ijay's ten-year plan.....
1. NJ has the highest property tax in the nation. IMO, this is bad, not only because of the money, but more so in that it unfairly targets those whose income has ended, is fixed, or has a income that could be mobile. Point is, for those targeted sets, moving anywhere out of state will profit them, and moving to NC will make them rich :>) (Moving to SC will just make them stupid :>)
Our property tax makes NJ less competitive amongst the states as a place to live, work, and raise your kids.
2. It could be worse, Warren is 13th out of 21 NJ counties for average property tax payments (we pay $6,900, number 1 pays $12,000, number 21 pays $4,100. Oxford pays a 2017 rate of 3.927, average Warren rate is 3.276. Could be worse, Belvidere is 5.633, Washington Boro - 4.974, but could be better: H-town - 2.965, Indy - 3.324. Think Calico has a point about being gigged but it may have more to do with schools being fixed budgets against Oxford's low property values. Don't know, I guess the increases by year might tell us more.
3. NJ has the second best school system in the nation. Oxford schools, while part of the best overall system, are mediocre at best, perhaps even poor. I agree with Calico that consolidation and merger can only help Oxford's poor rating and may help with the budgeting too.
4. NJ has the third highest median income in America. It's a great place for work. Oxford's median income is only 2/3rds of the state median income.
5. NJ's total tax burden is number 7 amongst the states. Even with the highest property tax rates in the country, 6 states have a higher tax burden.
6. For cost-of-living, including housing, NJ rates 4th in the nation, not a good place, but could be worse.
7. Bottom line: NJ has the 5th highest disposable income in the US. Chances are, if you live and work here, even after taxes, you have more money to spend. After you pay off cost-of-living, NJ falls to 10th highest disposable income in the nation, still pretty good for most.
Number 7's data. is based on 2012 data, by 2018, NJ climbed to 4th highest disposable income.
Not sure what the conclusion of this is, but NJ clearly pays more property tax than any other state yielding a total tax burden that's 7th in the nation, not the highest. With the 3rd highest median income in the nation, most of us have more disposable income than the rest of the nation as 10th highest disposable income in the nation. No country for old men, but great place to work and raise your kids...…….Oxford excluded.
"Those in office must realize that these capital improvements/maintenance issues will arise and should plan accordingly.
Can’t do that?
Shouldn’t be in office."
Stop making so much sense, you might get banned. ;-)
Wouldn’t be the first time Calico.
Prudence “should” mandate a budget line item for future repairs as projected by an engineering firm.
Roofs expire and we can project when they will.
HVAC has a life expectancy.
Needing new tires doesn’t SHOCK me - I anticipate needing them and plan accordingly.- same with my roof and windows.
No discipline + poor planning = ineptitude
Money train has to stop.
“Can SD just vote 1,000 times and be done with it...”
Nah, he will just stand at the polling location and browbeat everyone until they vote the way he wants. I mean, it certainly works that way here, so... ;-)
One would think that with such strong feelings on the topic, Dana would run for BOE or town committee but then she’d have to do something. She’s better at whining.
Why can’t school districts live within their budget? I would really like an explanation to help me understand this. They get a 2% increase every year. I am retired and do not. I need to plan ahead and spend wisely. I would ask the school districts do the same. Am I wrong?
SD, even if NJ is the second best in the nation, the US is dead middle in the world. Overall, not impressive.
The only way to improve things is to test kids and place them on career paths that match their ability...America doesn't do that...we let people chose their own paths...its called freedom
Excuse me....the average US school is mediocre against the number 2 in the nation. I am pretty sure being queen of the pigs will rank higher than the average pig.
Just like Oxford’s low NJ rating is probably well above the US average.
Tell us how NJ ranks against the world and then you got something.
Speaking of average pigs...
The only international comparison I could find is from the OECD, the following from their 2015 report:
US Mathmatics performance among 15 year olds:
“Statistically significantly below the OECD average”
US Reading performance among 15‐year‐olds:
“Not statistically significantly different from the OECD average”
US Science performance among 15–year–olds
“Not statistically significantly different from the OECD average”
In fact, the US in 2015 did NOT score in a single category meeting the OECD’s definition for an above average test score,
“Countries/economies with a mean performance/share of top performers above the OECD average; Countries/economies with a share of low achievers below the OECD average”
What’s that got to go with Oxford? Not a blessed thing!
What’s that got to do with the age-old “gotta throw more money at it” argument? Given that the US is well *above* average for per-pupil spending, lots imo.
Here’s a fun site that tries to assess nationally, with some interesting results too:
Throwing money at a problem doesn't correlate to a better education system. You tell me how pensions and retiree medical on the backs of NJ Taxpayers makes education better for anyone other than the teachers?
Ijay: Happy teachers teach better? I know bonuses make me work harder. JIT: what does the average US school have to do with NJ's international ranking? Can we just exclude SC, MS, WV, NV, AL, AK, LA, NM and the other loser states? Then you may have something. Given we hold the number 2 ranking, this is fairly meaningless except on average for the country. NJ, being number 2, is not average. Not even close. Even Oxford.
Retired asks: “Why can’t school districts live within their budget?” Good question, others have noted as well. Please don’t take away that I am picking on Calico the person, she has been very respectful, it’s been a good discussion. I am just attempting to look at ideas and she is a useful foil. Thanks to all for being nice, mostly, and to the mods for letting this one go a bit. Good discussion, interesting topic. School funding is a major fiscal element for all of us, and it is really complex and screwed up. capital/operating, local/state/federal, special programs, outside funding (like PTAs and companies), and more manner of funding. Gotta feel for those responsible who have to walk through this minefield of hidden treasures while trying to explain and rationalize to the angry hoard. .
First, historically we have funded current operating costs from budget and we borrow for long-term things costing a lot, one time. Support programs, taxation, all geared for that, whether personal, business or public sectors. Then, we use/amortize capital expense over time getting all sorts of taxation benefits while paying for the debt/interest from our operating budget. Or, simply stated, this is how we pay for things we can’t afford. We borrow. The State assumes this, has built a co-invest program at up to 40% from our State income taxes to support this; taxation has been geared to support this. I think that might have to change to support savings sinking funds.
With the current manner of funding, townships that have the cash, are proactive in passing referendums, get extra taxes back. Townships that defeat spending proposals basically leave money on the table. Worse --- they give that money away to other districts. Use it or lose it. I guess those programs would have to change.
Sure, we could budget a bit extra, save for a rainy day, saving over time for the future, creating the $1M sinking fund needed to support this, and perhaps even more to support bigger things coming. Ask yourself this: would there be a difference if I came to Calico as said “we need to charge you $100 a year for unknown future costs,” versus “I need $100 a year going forward to pay for what’s currently broken that I can show you,” would her response be expected to be different? If it was $90 for the sinking fund, $100 for the bond because of debt service ---- would you expect her answer to change?
Let’s go back in time and use the Fed as an example. FDR said save and The Greatest Generation said “shoot yeah,” and for 35 years until Reagan --- we did. He also said: let’s all save for our own rainy day with Social Security. That was basically the end of altruism at the Federal Level. Reagan changed all that bad-to-run-a-tab thinking and suddenly we’re advocates of debt and debt management by GDP/debt ratios. Bush I pushed back once saying: “unread my lips, we’re going in debt, we need higher taxes” and he lost big time. Bill Clinton followed and taxed the rich to lower the debt, even ran a budget surplus for two years, lowered our debt/GDP ratio for the first time since Reagan, and got impeached. Saving for a rainy day has not been a voter plus since The Greatest Generation. That’s the crux of the biscuit, the apostrophe, in all this.
Bottom line is we could save for a rainy day but the request is the same --- give me $100 per year so I can fix what’s broken. The focus of the question should be 1) is it broken, 2) is the price fair 3) are there alternative manners of financing vs. a bond. Oxford it self has provided an answer to 3. -----> more later, too long....
Speaking of broken records ---- has anybody figured out if this stuff needs to be fixed and are the prices fair?
The reason I ask is because Calico is right --- these guys don't always pitch the best answer first. For example, based on Calico's summary, Oxford has found other revenue to fix things: about $250K --- so Calico has a point that they can, and proved it themselves, do better and they do ask for money they don’t need.
Also, Calico appears to be right that Oxford is gigging the voters over time. First, note Oxford pays more per $ of property than Independence or Hackettstown --- why? Second, note that Oxford taxes did GO DOWN in 2017, after the previous year’s 27% increase, however the trend is always up. In 2016, they jumped 27%, but most years 1-3%. So, pikers, but pikers who pay more to begin with. Independence went up 40% one year, 2014, and most years 2-5%. Hackettstown never took a spike, most years 2-4% ---- wanna guess who left money on the table and has the least improvements……probably the one without the spike.... Or, maybe they have the answer. Sorry about the table....
Year/rate Oxford Indy Hacktown
2012 2.802 2.097 2.533
13 2.838 2.167 2.611
14 2.911 3.027 2.703
15 3.105 3.168 2.794
16 3.95 3.215 2.916
17 3.927 3.324 2.965
2018 4.016 3.315 3.024
Except for the large expenditure years, most often these guys are playing around the approximate inflation level. Not sure how this reckons with the 2% rule since the years lower than 2% don’t cover the years over 2% ---- but again, I think capital expense may be outside of that rule.
So, there you have it. I think based on Oxford’s own example of finding money other places --- perhaps that can be done again for some of these items. I think it looks like for some reason, Oxford charges a higher tax rate than a number of neighbors. Not the only one that does that, but they do. And why the drop in 2017 --- is it rational or did they make a fiscal mistake in the 27% increase the year before, if so, are they doing it again?
Yeah, I do it all for you Calico ---- :>)
Have you ever hear of Golden Handcuffs? Believe me strangerdanger I have seen it in our schools and it is frustrating as a parent.
StrangerD-you are not taking into account a Township’s “equalization value”—% of fair market value versus properties accessed value.
Cleo: please keep your personal peccadillos to yourself ;-). I really am not taking a side here. Just not sure how teacher/administrator benefits will fix the HVAC. Perhaps you can clarify.
No I didn’t Stymie since I don’t know what you are saying. Not a clue. Probably my fault for covering a lot of ground.
Equalization value is the % of full market property value that the tax rate is applied to.
For instance- if a property’s full, fair market value is $100,000 and the Twp equalization value is 84.5%-
The Twp tax rate per $100 assessed value is applied to $84,500.
I’m sure there is a table available somewhere on the net. ( maybe county/state tax site, I’ll dig)
Assessment per $100 dollars is only part of the equation.
It’s like trying to determine if someone is overweight by knowing only their weight and not their height.
Obscure, illogical method of determining a property tax bill, but leave it to the Govt.
That one made grey stuff drip out my ears. Think you may have some terms mixed up.
The real property value is a percentage of true value (tax assessment). All of NJ is at 100%.
Equalization is a manner that the county divides up county costs and yes, it's a apportionment of county costs, shared school costs, etc. Gosh only knows how this affects any districts property tax but it certainly provides a cost that must be factored into the rate. One would think Oxford would benefit from this, but gosh only knows.
However, independent of this, the rates are what they are, the trends are what they are and Oxford pays more per $1 of real estate than Indy or H-town. That fact don't change. And they need a new HVAC system, supposedly, sometime soon, and a lot of other stuff piled on.. But they don't need new lunch tables; they got used conference tables instead. Sweet. Multi-purpose. Now they can hold conventions!
For example, Washington has 80% ER, high tax rate; Belvidere has 67%, high tax rate. Hackettstown has 102% and low ER. Drip, drip, drip....more grey stuff leaving :>)
What is your point SD? You ramble on and on. Can you make your point in a sentence or two?
Says the man who believes voting down a local school district’s HVAC system can fix the State’s benefits package.....No, I don’t think I can dumb it down enough for that one-trick pony. Just ignore, you’ll sleep better.
Obfuscation - I’ve always admired how that word so succinctly describes much of what constitutes our society today.
It troubles me that people who spend the time and money to have their own property taxes lowered, which unfairly raises the property tax of others, are so eager to disparage those who don't want to increase their taxes for any reason.
Within a 2% cap of the tax levy, not the overall budget, a school district can only put away so much. However, just like the average homeowner they budget what they can for future repairs and try to get as much life out of their current systems. Just like a homeowner, when things break or are passed their efficiency they start to cost more in repairs. When faced with needed home repairs, a roof, heating system, windows, a homeowner takes out a loan. Schools do the same thing. They are only allowed by law to set aside set amounts of money for repairs. When they get to the point where they cost more to maintain, it is time for new, more efficient systems that will save the budget in the long run. It is not due to "want" is is due to NEED!
“When faced with needed home repairs, a roof, heating system, windows, a homeowner takes out a loan.”
I think the point was that this isn’t the case for everyone - some folks do save for big items - and the question was if the school’s plan was to save or to borrow?
That said, having a plan doesn’t always mean it can be executed because there always seems to be something else that consumes whatever resources have been saved.
"When faced with needed home repairs, a roof, heating system, windows, a homeowner takes out a loan."
Not every homeowner. I have never done this.
You are forgetting something. They should be able to work with the 2% cap, shuffle this shuffle that. Problem is employee benefits are eating much of the 2% leaving very little for anything else. Knee-jerk behavior like SD to just add it to the taxpayers is short sighted. Work within budgets...
An informational session was held at Oxford Central School tonight regarding the referendum. Six residents attended.
Think you are misinterpreting me iJay. Much less the charged use of “knee-jerk” to elicit reaction. Bad form.
Well, Calico, I guess $100 per year isn’t worthy of knowing more.... Did you find out if repairs ate necessary? Prices fair? Or why the boys sit on one side, the girls on the other?
For folks desiring a rainy day sinking fund, again I ask: how do you think the voters would react if Oxford asked for $100/year, in advance, for future projects, vs, this referendum for the present, would voters react differently. Of course not.
The bottom line is some just feel it, and perhaps everything, should be handled within the current budget and 2% increase cap. That seems to be the issue, not whether the fixes are needed or the prices ate fair.
Which one in the picture is Dana?
I’m not the one complaining about the lack of involvement.
6 people attend a meeting. 5 are in the picture. How many people are taking the picture?
Do we calculate the answer using new math or real math? Which do selfies fall under? Will more money help kids calculate the correct answer faster? Will it get us teachers with cajones who will fight against the ridiculous math "tricks" they are forced to teach kids? Will those kids be able to make change if I give them the extra pennies?
LOL maja. 6 is a lot, I guess, considering they held several of these meetings earlier in the year when they had the first failed vote. Those were better attended.
Well, you know, take $250K out of the referendum, give the kids some crummy used conference tables for eating lunch, and everyone loses interest :>)
No one took the picture, it's an automated motion activated security cam; just like the one that caught the Great Meadows Elementary Marauders. Or not.
Wanna bet everyone in that room was against the referendum?
"Wanna bet everyone in that room was against the referendum?"
I don't recognize any of those people, so wouldn't know how they stand. I can speak regarding the sessions earlier this year. Opinions of those who attended were mixed. I'm not sure why you are assuming that only people who are against it would be seeking information. Most of the people I spoke to after the earlier sessions commented that they attended to find out exactly what the money was to be used for so they could make their decision based on facts. Sounds like the smart thing to do, especially if undecided.
Hey, that’s great. I’m just used to only the negatives turn up. Then again, probably just the meetings I am at ;-)
Sorry you took it that way SD... Budgets are needed by everyone in this world. Breaking budgets should only be for extreme reasons:
Governments going to war (should always be the last resort)
Major natural disaster
I just don't see a HVAC system or a roof being something that cannot be planned and budgeted for...
Ah.....now I get it. I have tried to ask: 1) does Oxford need a new HVAC and 2) is the price fair. Hopefully not too many tangents, but hopefully everything I wrote has danced around those questions.
Calico, and sorry if I mess this up, has said NO, because they just seem to keep adding more and more and never seem to get ahead or stay on budget. And they should figure that out before Oxford spends more to just spend more.
Ijay is looking at a different question, he asks why anyone would EVER break a budget, why would anyone ever try to finance something outside of the budget, why would anyone ever run any debt. At least I think that’s what you are saying. Since our budgets are balanced by law, with a 2% increase cap, that pretty much fixes everything to what's balanced. Within said balanced budget, you suggest we carve out a rainy-day fund for expected/unexpected future expenses, including capital projects.
IMO, financially, you should live within your means, including debt as a legitimate financial tool as long as you live within your means, including debt. That still can include zero-based balanced budget. IOW, as long as debt service is..sorry, serviceable, and acceptable according to general accounting practices, comparative values, etc. ----- a modicum of debt, and debt servicing can be part of your financial package. I don’t like debt, hate too much debt, but do see debt, properly used, as a great financial tool to handle issues with long-term benefits that you don’t have cash for today.
That leads to another question, perhaps the one we should have begun with. Where does Oxford stand re: debt and Calico’s thought that they just keep gigging taxpayers over and over and... Here’s what I found, think folks will love this link…
NJ debt per student is $5,100 per student versus the nation’s average of $8,900. But there are wide variances and the State debt burden for Schools is about 25% of our debt burden. Our total debt is down from 2011’s high of over $8.9B to 2016’s over $7B. There’s lots of stuff re referendum passage and other things in this great article --- should really help iJay, Calico and other in your efforts.
In some cases like Oxford, you have a point. In others, like Hackettstown, they should really review whether a modicum of future debt service could provide current benefits to their students. I mean thrifty is one thing, cheap though is cheap.
Here’s the punchline: Oxford debt service looks to be over $15K per student vs. NJ $5.1, the nation $8.9. Calico appears correct --- they are borrowing a lot, probably too much. Hope they have lots of new stuff.
Or is it regional?
Great Meadows is under $8K (and they have a relatively new school)
Hackettstown is around $1k per student, either they have found the answer OR their facilities are hurting.
Belvidere: $2K, Washington Boro $4.5K, Warren Hills >10K, Washington Township $0, Allamuchy >$20k (no wonder they don’t need prices on menus….)
Apparently, it is not regional, it is local, and Oxford owes more than most, not as much as some. Hackettstown basically does not owe and those Allamuchy solar panels better pay off…..
Enjoy the article, hope it helps: https://whyy.org/articles/some-n-j-districts-pile-up-debt-building-schools-others-are-debt-free/ The tool to find your district’s debt is embedded at the article’s end. Hope you can use this tool to provide whatever armament you need to put facts behind your passions.
The unofficial tally:
306 - Yes
302 - No
There are still some provisional votes to be counted. I sure hope they find 5 no ones. ;-)
Let's hope for the sake of the children the Yes vote stands and Oxford can continue moving forward.
"Let's hope for the sake of the children the Yes vote stands"
The children will be just fine. Throwing money at them will not make them more attentive, smarter, and more successful.
According to the stats, unless Oxford has a emergency reason to incur above average debt; they have a debt issue. Calico is right, according to the numbers.
So yes, it would be nice for the sake of the children, but these folks seem to be mismanaging Oxford school finances. Both can be true.
"Let's hope for the sake of the children"
It's statements like these that cause financial hemorrhaging. Statements like these are just what the over spenders rely on.
SD - Say again? ;-)
Why is it that the children always get screwed. Lets have some balance. Begin with the defense budget. Then look at Social Security and Medicare and oh yes look at veterans benefits as well. Everyone should chip in so we can all afford to live here. And lest we forget the matter of health care.
You can reduce and go after every other person's benefit or whatever but leave mine alone. To bad kids do not vote. Let the sniping begin...…………………..
"Why is it that the children always get screwed."
What a ridiculous statement. The children are getting 65% of our astronomical property taxes.
"Begin with the defense budget...... and oh yes look at veterans benefits as well."
Don't fool yourself into thinking the defense is wasted money.
The only reason some other country hasn't come along and taken our land and resources is because of our military force.
Our president may be a clown- but our military force is 100% why we can live in the comfort and relative calm that we have.
Anyone who doesn't respect the military- both active and veteran is quite simply uninformed and unaware.
Take away all the teachers and guess what- society will go on...I suspect little would change in fact.
Take away the military and we would pretty much all be killed, imprisoned, enslaved, etc.
Children ARE being screwed by a voting population that refuses to look at the numbers and continues to send pandering, spineless representatives to Washington ( and Trenton) that run our budgets into never never land and cut taxes to placate their thumb sucking, unable to consider sacrificing electorate.
Please cut my taxes so I can qualify for a $600 a month car lease ( for a car I have no business driving), my $300 cable bill, my $250 family cell bill ( IPhones all around), and my home that is far larger than I justifiably require, but “makes” me look successful.
Oh, just put it on our tab...
Josh- America’s defense budget is more than the next 15 largest country’s defense budgets COMBINED.
And some of them are our allies ( maybe not for much longer)
Eisenhower warned of this 75 years ago.
To think there is not an incredible level of waste and fraud tucked in is beyond delusional.
There are huge economic benefits of being #1. If we weaken and don't become the world's policeman our standard of living falls.
The current education system is just into preserving itself and making extremely minor improvements which they believe is much more. US K-12 is straight down the middle in the World. This is a failing grade for the world leader. This is also why we import top talent from around the world.
We spend as much on defense as the next ten countries or so combined; many of which are our friends. We spend 2 1/2 times what China spends; 10 times what Russia spends; we spend 1/2 of Russia’s entire GDP.
Apparently we are not very efficient. There’s plenty to cut on defense.
Oxford has more debt than the NJ average, they are not very efficient. That’s still no reason IMO to not fix the HVAC if it’s breaking. But there seems to be a debt problem unless there was a recent needed large expenditure like a new building.
US education is mediocre in the world. NJ is not. It is number 2 in US education. HHS and Oxford are mediocre in NJ. NJ is second best in America. They are probably still better than mediocre in the world. Heat and AC are still good no matter what your rank is.
The debt problem is the lack of rateables and the fact that Covanta closed. The significance of Covanta closing was discussed way back in the beginning of this thread.
At the town committee meeting tonight, the rescue squad said they need two new stretchers at $45k each. Since the rescue squad covers both Oxford and White, the squad requested that each town purchase one. The committee explained that things will be in an even worse way next year due to the Covanta situation and they couldn't promise any money for it.
The bottom line is, the town is basically broke. All of the tax revenue that would be gained by businesses building on vacant properties and land that are currently so far in arrears, due to owners not ponying up back taxes, pushes the burden onto the residential taxpayer. A large part of the residents in Oxford are not on the wealthy end of the spectrum. $300-$400 worth of extra property taxes and or sewer increases every year have caused more and more families into foreclosure.
As for the school, I was told tonight that consolidation is getting closer and closer. We will see what happens.
"We spend 2 1/2 times what China spends; 10 times what Russia spends"
Yes- and if we didn't have our military both China and Russia would happily overtake us.
You’re right; I know enough to be dangerous, not the whole story. The debt factor is debt-per-student so more students, less debt (as long as you don’t need a new room). So, if you have fixed debt, falling enrollment, the factor, not the total debt, rises.
Bottom line though sounds like you can’t afford a school. Especially if a lot of homes w/o kids. Sure not gonna move there for the school. Might need to consolidate, pay tuition to use another school, something since it appears you can’t afford your own campus. So sad, it’s a homey little hamlet. You would think you could fund an elementary school.
So much monies are wasted supporting teachers that have no accountability …..look at children pushed thru that cannot do simple math !!!
Is that a correct figure above Calico?
$45 K each for two stretchers?
Well, that’s an easy no.
Yes, $45k each. The $45k includes the specially designed stretcher and the device for the rig that allows the stretcher to be mechanically loaded so the EMTs do not have to lift it.
As I said let the sniping and negativity begin. Yes schools get 65% of local taxes but that is the way our system was set up years ago by Trenton. Go ahead and try to change that system. Many schools already co-share services and administrators but further consolidation and regionalization is many years away. No one wants to lose local control and for other reasons.
Is anyone interested in listing what they think are the positives and negatives of school consolidation so we could have a good conversation.
"Yes schools get 65% of local taxes but that is the way our system was set up years ago by Trenton."
As previously stated, the problem begins and ends in Trenton. It's time to start electing people who will figure out how to properly spend our tax dollars. This goes for everything, not just schools.
What does Trenton have to do with your school? Isn’t your property tax rate your community’s deal?
1. Pooling of interests, funds, costs, talent on county-wide basis
2. Less, more capable, administrators as in hire less in number, pay more, attract better talent
The days of neighborhood oversight is over. There are no real neighborhoods any more. Many of us are dual income, don’t have the hours to help manage local schools, and local oversight creates vast differences between local schools. Better to lift it up a notch and manage county-wide. Works well in other states, has for years. This experiment is over, time to move forward.
Very simple equation.
Hackettstown- 4 bedroom home- prop taxes what,
3 students in the school system
$21,000 State Average expenditure per pupil in a public school in NJ.
$63,000 in school expenditures.
Need to up charge families that create the bulk of our school age population.
I kind of understand paying for preschool breakfasts for hungry students.
I kind of understand paying for lunches also.
I don’t believe those whose children occupy all of those classroom seats are paying their fair share.
They sing the blues every year at budget time.
Never ever spend enough.
Throw in LIFETIME health care and retirement income for the school employees.
Somethings gotta give.
"What does Trenton have to do with your school?"
Trenton is taking my school tax money, your school tax money and the school tax money of every other homeowner in the state. Schools should be fairly funded with that money for daily operating expenses as well as improvements.
You’re right, simple equation
In my America, we believe education is both our future success and our best national defense and we agree, as citizens, that it is our sacred responsibility to support that, each and every one of us. The key word is OUR. We have chosen to make it progressive based on property. We have chosen not to restrict how many kids a family might have.
That is who we are and what we believe. And we have no facts to say we are misguided, many facts showing it is the right course.
IMO, in a heightened competitive world, we need to invest to become number one in the world and we need to extend public education to include AA degrees or two more years.
How about that!!
Calico our rescue squad requested those stretcher lifts as well.
With some of the calls they go on it can take up to 4 men to lift the patient into the ambulance due to the size of the patient. I applied for the FEMA firemans grant last year but we weren't awarded the grant. I would suggest Oxford look at that grant as well as they may be able to benefit from it. And yes they are costly, that why we tried for the grant first.
From same family-
1st student pays full tuition.
2nd from same immediate family- 5% discount.
Families pumping out the students (and consuming larger share of planet’s waning resources) should have to ante up more.
Have as many children as you’d like but be prepared to pay their freight.
How about that?
email i recieved from FEMA:
"As you are aware, the AFG Program is among the Department of Homeland Security's (DHS) and FEMA's most competitive grant programs. In FY 2018, FEMA received 8,439 AFG applications, requesting more than $1.8 billion in federal assistance. The large number of applications received, and the finite amount of available funding, resulted in many commendable applicants not being funded and accentuates the highly competitive nature of this program. FEMA encourages your organization to apply for the FY 2019 AFG funding opportunities.....Given the high number of applications received, the AFG Program is unable to provide your organization with an individualized comprehensive review of your application at this time. "
Sending 4 guys on every call sounds impossible. There are probably calls where even 4 isn't enough. I wouldn't want to have to wait until two or more other guys show up on a medical call. When you look at how many calls on the Warren web site are "lift assist" I don't blame them at all for wanting those stretchers.
We need to constantly re-think education. Technology can greatly assist in learning. I don't know the actual answers but innovation is the key, plus the education must be aligned to jobs after graduation. Young people need to know that a good paying job can be had.
Well, that was less than not satisfying except to boldly admit the one thing you want to know: the reason....politically correct though :-(. We call that a gf. Better they said, you lost, big competition, cya.
One would think resubmitting to be the definition of insanity. Or, having our objective rendered invisible, we doubled our effort to redo what failed before.....
Is there a human, a telephone number? I would call, be nice, tell stories, and say, “come on, tell me why I lost” and IF they can’t satisfy, flip it and ask “why did they win?” Maybe you can snake something that will up your chances.
"I don't blame them at all for wanting those stretchers."
Wanting them and being able to afford them are two totally different things. Oxford's fire department is in dire need of a new tanker truck and have been asking the town for years for help buying one. The rescue squad has gotten two new ambulances in the last 3-4 years. I know the cost is not comparable, but the tanker truck will not be able to be used much longer. When you are in a town that only has fire hydrants in the immediate downtown area, a tanker truck is essential.
There’s no reason those stretchers should cost $45k. The only reason I can think of is that they have a captive audience. Think about it, should they cost as much as a fully loaded mid size SUV?
IDK, that's what the head of the squad said. I did not research them myself. That's above my pay grade of $0. ;-)
Geez, at $45K each that's $90K which is about 1/2 the price of a number of new Tankers or used Pumper-Tankers:
I thought they would be made of Titanium tubing at that price, rather than Aluminum. While I didn't search too hard, I would hope that at that price they'd be made in the USA. Most places would put that right up front if they were, that is unless I just somehow missed the obvious.
When in doubt go right to the source and ask the squad folks for the details. I know there's also a regular reader here that would know all about them if he wants to contribute. But might not know something about Oxford schools is talking about ambulance equipment.
When you folks went looking at the stretchers, did you price out the hydrolic lifter that goes with it? When I put together the price of both I see on line it looks to be about $40k.
Given the school system, not to worry about the stretcher, they won’t know what numbers to push to call 911. ;-)
"When you folks went looking at the stretchers, did you price out the hydrolic lifter that goes with it? When I put together the price of both I see on line it looks to be about $40k."
You are correct. The $45k is including the apparatus to lift the stretcher into the ambulance.
It's a "NO" after all. Apparently after all of the votes were counted and verified, we get the following message from the Superintendent's FB page.
Dear OCS Community,
The Warren County Board of Elections has opened all the mail-in ballots and reviewed any provisional ballots and sadly, the results of the referendum are:
The NO votes have decided the election and the path this school takes for many years to come. The Board of Education will be discussing this result at the meeting on November 21 at 7:00pm here in the OCS Library.
Congratulations to Mr. John Brus, Mrs. Suzanne Taranto and Mr. Ryan Cruts, who all won seats on the Board of Education.
I have said this many times before "All programs "beyond " basic education ie; primarily sports programs , are NOT what taxpayers signed up to fund.
If parents want their children in a sports program, they should pay "all" associated costs to support, maintain ( fields, lights, upkeep, etc.).
As a taxpayer, I believe in educating our future generations, however I object to having to subsidize someone else's yearnings to be a sports legend..
THIS IS NOT EDUCATION...there is a huge unlimited expenditure in these programs and they have been out of control for some time.
The system is broken, each town DOES NOT need their very own field either.
It’s an elementary school, Steven. I don’t think sports expenditures is their problem unless you are anti-gym as well.
" and sadly, the results of the referendum are....
The NO votes have decided the election and the path this school takes for many years to come. "
Who ever wrote this is an asshole. People in charge should at least *appear* to be impartial.
Well, clearly he is not a good sport proving once fir all tome, there are no sports in Oxford. It’s elementary, my dear Watson.
Can’t wait to see what they do next. Any existing board members, especially this sport, if on the board of ed, should resign.
Ah yea- the head person who would try to justify blowing money. Himself included. ;)
Josh, don’t pay any attention to Jim. I agree with you. In a sane world, the superintendent would be against funding the school. If he wants money, maybe he should metal detect for it like the cool kids do.
You are more amused at your joke than anyone else.
My metal detecting is quite simply a peaceful endeavor. Enjoying found things from the past while others watch mindless crap on tv or online while being manipulated to consume while being robbed at the same time from numerous angles. Have fun with that.
My comments regarding "saving monies" pertained to ALL schools .
The idea that there must be after school sports and paid for on the back of taxpayers is antiquated and needs to be addressed .
This only one obvious way to cut expenses.
Same thing with school bands?
Same thing with school plays?
It’s not a problem of too many frills.
It’s a problem with the allocation of the (massive) funds that they receive.
If a well rounded educational experience cannot be provided st $22K+ per student, then I’d say there’s something wrong here.
And calling the superintendent of schools an a-hole for doing his job is consistent with such a zen outlook.
There are no sports in Oxford Steven, that’s why your comment seems so silly. Still does even after your explanation.
The vote was so narrow that really, nobody won. The town is split. Existing board members clearly failed, they should resign, this guy is ready to move on. Oxford can’t properly maintain the school with the money they have. They have a large debt, higher than average. The school should shut down, it’s a waste of money, a sinkhole, they don’t have the money to fix it, they don’t know how to get by with the money they have. Just bus the kids to a well run school, sell it, and use the funds to help outsource the service.
Really can’t wait to see what happens next.
The Superintendent is a great guy who does a fantastic job. It is his job to do his best to get these referendums passed.
No doubt a great guy, but clearly a failure. Personally, I would take it as a teachable moment and move on to a fresh start. However, if he sticks it out, still can’t wait to see what they do next. Broken stuff, no money, deep in debt, can’t take a loan, mediocre results, pretty tough problem to solve. I mean which do you prioritize: mediocrity or heat? Personally, given the vote, punting the whole thing away to another well-run school district seems a viable choice. Has anyone floated that idea?
Oxford is broke...there is no money...the well has gone dry
Good luck selling or building a new home in Oxford to/for a family with children if the school is seen as bad for whatever reason. Does anyone know how many new residential building permits have been issued in Oxford during the last five years? That would be telling.
Oxford is in the Highlands building restriction.
New residential building permits are not a good measure.
The Land Use Board approved the development of Cambridge West last month. It will be a 55+ housing community.
Tim, most of Warren and Sussex is restrained by the highlands but building is still allowed as long as the guidelines are followed. If Oxford or any community is not seeing any new residential or commercial development for whatever reason that is a very bad sign for existing property owners who will have to absorb coming tax increases. Time to move out or change the highlands. Good luck with that. Do you know how many new building permits were issued? Perhaps it is to late for Oxford. Even school consolidation will not help much at this point as taxes usually go up almost 2% plus each year. The real problem is no new ratables.
Jono - There has not been any new residential or commercial development in Oxford in years. The only residential permits I know of have been to renovate existing homes. There is quite a bit of that going on BTW.
OTI and Oxwall have been albatrosses for years and Covanta is the nail in the coffin.
Let's see how the 55+ development fares.
The 55 plus community will certainly help a lot especially bringing in few if any young school age kids. However should there be a lot of high school kids that could be a problem for the send/receive district budget. Communities throughout warren county should seek new ratables whenever "good" development is possible.
Wait until they build those warehouses ....
Funny thing is the town has never looked better IMO. Main street falling down factory gone; a couple of new buildings post 1950 on 31. Yet seems to be circling the toilet bowl financially and having a mediocre school that's falling apart and not supported (at least this year) not conducive to bringing in families actually spend money ---- younger folks, family folks. Not sure what they are targeting for 55+ -- people who have to live in Northwest Jersey but can't afford anywhere close to anything? Too bad, town has a lot going for it IMO, primarily low density and unbelievably low crime.
Low density, average national family size, lower than NJ median income, really low real estate prices, extremely low crime rate, not well educated (but apparently still bringing in the doe ray me), and a mediocre elementary school, personally -- I would be looking at the Charter School if I lived there with elementary school kids.
In 2019, Patch rated Oxford as C, the township B-. In 2018, it was C-/B- so looking up, yet still mediocre. Nope, probably not a growth opportunity except per chance a large development, like 000's of acres that could change the town demographics just by itself. Or, a certain family buying the golf course (maybe give them Shippen Manor to sweeten the deal :>) Otherwise, I don't see much changing the rankings: https://www.areavibes.com/oxford-nj/livability/
Calico --- do you know how Oxford got into the school debt mess they are in? Higher than national average, higher than NJ average --- way higher... Any big expenditures like a new gym, wing, or something? I mean if this debt was due to routine wear n tear, you are really in big trouble. If it bought something new, an expansion, might be a different story.
New residential housing units suck out more municipal budget dollars than they produce.
Chances are the recently approved 55+ community will not be built for years, if ever.
One approved in Independence, maybe 6 years ago. No demand and no infrastructure to support it.
Hawk Pointe in Washington (Warren Cty) has values cratering.
New development in Mansfield (on Rte 57) stalled out and has drastically reduced pricing, screwing those first residents.
55+ housing is synonymous with high density development.
High density development requires water and sewer capacity.
Our water and sewer capacity is maxed out.
There’s high rise (3 story) apartment type 55+ in Rockaway Twp that seems to be retaining value ( elevators; underground parking) but again, water and sewer.
Throw in the fact that municipalities provide very little tax relief to the owners-Hawk Pointe- prop taxes $11K+ (and maintenance fees of around $350/mo) and I’d like to know what the draw is?
Why go that route?
Hard to support a school when property taxes are maxed out...but that doesn't seem to bother the educator crowd
What do "you ' believe it costs to maintain a football, baseball or soccer field ?
It is basic math.....add it up.
I am discussing saving HUGE amounts of monies....does it capture all things , not likely . But it certainly points to a huge expenditure that "parents" that wish little Johnny to experience sportsmanship (NOT Education ! ) , then they should contribute to a "sports program pool" completely separate from the education of the general public and have it's own set of books maintained to support such programs....pay for what you choose to use ….imagine that , accountability .
I do not believe that the taxpayers ( especially the seniors) should be held accountable for these things, times have changed and the level of accountability should .
This is a HUGE amount of monies county wide (imagine the expenditure state wide ! )
Again Steven, the issue here is elementary school.
I do agree with you on this as well as most extracurricular activities. Many states are doing this, NJ is behind the times. Even a number of NJ districts have adopted this.
Might need a federal law precluding the NFL and others from funding specific districts. They probably create gladiator schools in urban blight, coal country and the like.
Still wrong thread though.
I AM a senior.
Cut out sports, theater, music, marching band- cheerleaders- won’t need them with no marching band or sports teams- let’s kill orchestra also and the debate team?
These activities teach team building, goal setting, dedication, cooperation and so much more.
They are all part of what is considered a well rounded educational experience.
They are also what most colleges like to see on admission applications.
We can have junior sit his fat a$$ on the bus- get home at 3:30- sit his fat a$$ in front of the TV or game console , and develope diabetes.
FACT- nearly 20% of children between the ages of 12-19 are OBESE. Not just overweight but obese.
We should be supporting more activities for our youth not less.
The excess is in administration and benefits- not extracurricular activities.
“They are all part of what is considered a well rounded educational experience.
They are also what most colleges like to see on admission applications.”
I agree, but once they get to college, the indoctrination begins. It is scary to see what is going on in College Campuses these days. Free speech is out the window unless that speech agrees with the woke crowd that seems to have taken over these college campuses.
Sorry off topic.
"Sorry off topic."
LOL, that's never stopped anyone before. I agree with you 100%. I went to college part time nights and summers while working full time. For a time I thought that I missed out on something. The full college experience etc. The older I got the more I realized that going part time was the best thing I could have done. ;-)
You are completely missing my point....people that "use these programs" need to anty up and pay additional to use....they are NOT part of a basic education ( which is what children of taxpayers are supposed to be getting .
You get homeowners insurance...basic coverage for a basic cost
Auto insurance same
If you want "additional coverage , it cost "you" additional.
If little Johnny want to be in the band, or on football or basketball team, the cost of said programs should be amortized for a cost per child into the programs and they need to be self sufficient from these funds ( not from basic education fund ).
The system is broken and needs to be revamped .
As far as children being obese ...last I checked, there is no cost to "go for a walk" other than desire and motivation ( which should come from the parents , not the schools.
Taxes & Education are very much related .
I do agree with Steven on this; we are talking extracurricular activities.
I am also glad that Calico missed the college experience with their indoctrination, politically correct ways of those people who took over the campuses. You know, those funky educated types. You really missed nothing he said sarcastically.
And we know football teams are bastions of free speech, free thought, critical thinking; sports teams are a freakin shining light upon the hill. There’s no indoctrination going on there, no rout learning, nothing dangerous happening. .Of course, how many major athletes have stepped forward to say they would never let their kid play team football?
Yes, Stymie, football is the cure for obesity; will win the drug war too. They always pick the fat ones first for the teams; they are so caring and so inclusive. Again, many states are doing this, and even if NJ is behind the times, many extracurricular activities are not funded by tax dollars anyway. We mostly paid our way for non sporting activities. And that’s not to say kill gym class. That’s where your obesity can be dealt with; it will never be dealt with on a HS football team.
It they want to play ball, let them pay to play ball. I will still come to see a few games. I do like HS ball. I will provide some support. Just don’t think my tax dollars need to go to this treat for a privileged few for extracurricular stuff .
Hypothetical question based on your supposition:
Family “A”- one child, a daughter, would like to play volleyball in high school.
Parents should pay extra for that experience.
Family “B”- three children , all in the public school system. They participate in no extracurricular activities.
Should family “A” pay more for the educational experience of their only child occupying one desk- while family “B” consumes triple the educational cost of family “A”?
And BTW, apparently getting the children off of the couch or away from the game console is a bridge too far.
The statistical upward trend of youth obesity bares that out.
Stymie; yes. We, as a nation, decided that education is in our national self interest for national defense for one thing. Were it not for education, there would be no United States, no Constitution.
Extracurricular team sports were never part of that strategic vision.
"You never let a serious crisis go to waste. And what I mean by that it's an opportunity to do things you think you could not do before." Rahm Emanuel
Ok, so back on topic with Oxford issues.
There is a special township committee meeting this Friday 11/15 at 4:00 pm to discuss a shared services agreement with Washington Borough regarding the municipal clerk. It's a good thing that the committee is exploring all options in regard to saving money.
Unfortunately, I will not be able to attend this meeting since work gets in the way.
And back again...our strategic vision for education.
I did look it up and mandatory public education has been with us since biblical times and before. Many of the ancients recognized value there.
Mass. had it in the 1600's, and adopted it as a state law after the Revolution, probably 1840 or so.
The country adopted it actually in the early 1900's mostly due to assimilation advantages given the millions on immigrants entering the country.
From my family history, our Irish side entered in 1866; basically baby in hand and having more on arrival. Laborers. Irish need not apply. Lived on Whiskey Row or so it was called by the overly friendly and welcoming natives. One thing I was amazed at was in 1870, 1890 census, all kids were in school even though a number were of working age, for the time. Not one child played sports; they had the iron mill if they needed exercise..... :>( However, two generation later, they were on a High School team and ultimately took the GI Bill to break out and go on to college. I think the nation profited by this helping hand for services rendered.
In our family, education was seen as our best strategy to move up from poverty and assimilate into American Society. We think we are proof of that. And I think the nation profited from our education. I believe this is a case where we want to leave no child behind. IMO, an uneducated citizenry weakens our national security and makes us less stable as a nation.
So, one kid, five kids, education all. Who pays ---- everyone. We call it community. But do we need to pay for extracurricular activities. Not IMO. Do a carwash, builds character, team building experience, financial training ---- much better than being on the dole.
Interesting that you shrink your definition of community to a size that includes a limited spectrum of educational experiences.
Those “educational experiences” are only offered to a select small number of privileged few at a very expensive taxpayer price paid by the entire community. That’s not community, that’s niche. And I am not saying stop; I am saying stop using taxpayer money. We’ll still chip in the facilities.....for now.
As a nation, we pay approx. 1k a kid for extracurriculars; that’s about 10% of our property tax bill. Yeah, I’ll take that tax cut. Or buy Oxford a hvac that works.
I am fairly certain that provisions are made for all that care to participate.
But I guess that Chubb’s sitting on the couch playing “ Grand Theft Auto” has its redeeming qualities.
Maybe Chubbs will develope an interest in reapolistety.
Good trade, no?
From the Express Times:
Please take notice that on December 11, 2019 at a meeting of the governing body of the Township of Oxford beginning at 7:00 pm., there will be a public hearing at which time the public may discuss and ask questions concerning Shared Services Agreement between the Township of Oxford and the Borough of Washington for the positions of Public Administrator, Municipal Clerk and Registrar services.
You should go in and ask when they merging the schools, police, fire, and other municipal offices. Time for Oxford’s governance to go away. It’s over.
Word on the street is the school board is going to attempt this again in 2020. Sigh....
What…..they still want to fix the HVAC. Cocky ba$$$rds :>) Just let it burn. No one in Oxford wants this. Over and over. You should push for merger and just get rid of your school board altogether. Let someone else who knows what they are doing manage the issue.
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