Oregon and the Shot Heard Round the World
What a lovely person Jeanette is and what tragic thing to happen on American soil! Thanks for keeping their story alive!
https://www.facebook.com/DMLdaily/videos/1123279741044815/?fref=nf
https://gianalytics.org/391-oregon-and-the-shot-heard-round-the-world
sha44ss 
4catmom Let's not forget Ruby Ridge and Waco. I'm sure there were others. This is going to start happening more often, as our govt gets more and more out of control.
JeffersonRepub Sorry but Finicum committed suicide by cop. The Feds and State Police seem to have done everything thing in their power to avoid bloodshed. Unfortunately, Finicum chose to die rather than be arrested for his crimes. No one should be surprised. He told the media multiple times that he would die before allowing himself to be arrested.
Gadfly We've been through this twice already. The Bundy's are squatters and thieves. They run their livestock through other people's land, take all the water, and refuse to pay for it. Common criminals. They've only latched on to the "Patriot" band wagon in the last couple of years. They're trying to say it's all about some boogeyman when they just don't want to pay for someone else's water they use. False Patriots.
GC 
EVV Hey, I am a long time protestor and IMHO this was not a peaceful protest; these are not martyrs.
These were armed felons and thugs or those who supported them with arms.
The Bundy's are thieves, plain and simple.
The Hammond's are arsonists, plain and simple who burned 139 acres to cover their illegal poaching of deer on government property. On a second illegal burn, they attempted to defend their ranch from a lightning strike fire while endangering real firefighters in the area.
OK, there's some weird sentencing actions taken giving them 5 years under a terrorism law but that's what appeals are for. If everyone who thought their sentence was too harsh took up arms, the inner cities would be war zones.
Tyranny? The armed protestors were asking for the sentence to be overturned and all government land ceded to local control. Simply stated, what the fed created and protects for all of us, they want to steal for their own local purposes because it is nearby to them and therefore they deserve to basically do with it what they want. And on top of that, let two guilty criminals off the hook for a solid conviction for the violent crime of arson where real innocents were at risk.
And to make their point, these thieves and felons armed themselves, got some notorious thieves and other buddies to join them in their armed protest against tyranny. Then they seized and holed up in an unimportant remote government building awaiting press coverage. When criminals are armed, the chance for imminent danger to law officers and citizens increases. When some of these participants are known criminals, the danger increases. Regardless of who pulled the gun first, that is the circumstance.
It is a tragedy that this man was armed in this situation. The result was easily foreseeable.
strangerdanger 
Bonv "shot heard round the world" ????????????????
LOL no one cares about this story once the last nut job David Fry finally surrendered. it was a story for 41 days. maybe once these trials start people will remember this but I doubt much will care.
http://www.slate.com/blogs/the_slatest/2016/02/11/oregon_occupier_david_fry_said_some_weird_stuff.html
then of course there is this true American Jon Ritzheimer.
https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/morning-mix/wp/2016/01/05/why-a-notorious-anti-islam-radical-turned-on-the-federal-government-in-oregon/
darwin At least one good thing has come out of this mess in Oregon. Cliven Bundy was arrested and is facing charges For his crimes on federal land in Nevada.
Darwin, I hear Trump is considering Ritzheimer to head the Department of Homeland Security if he gets elected (-;
ianimal What IS that America HAS become!?....Perfect example right here ....
Seperating the Wheat from the Chaff! ONE Patriot among the Thieves!
Few that believe in Civil Liberties and Constitutional Rights! The Mob ready to Lynch without even knowing the Facts or giving due process to their fellow Countrymen!
"The Moral principles and precepts contained in the Scriptures ought to form the basis of all our constitution and laws. All the miseries and evils that men suffer from vice, crime, ambition, injustice, oppression, slavery and war proceed from their despising the precepts contained in the Bible!! " Noah Webster
There were thieves among the American Patriot Ranchers also.
OldredDarwin,
Sha44ss believes that he/she is the patriot and the rest of us are the thieves.
Sha44ss, you should strongly consider the possibility that you are a person who has trouble separating fiction from reality and are therefore easily taken in by people who want to manipulate your feelings. Just think about that.
Wow gadfly thank you. I sometimes have trouble following the crazy
Ummm so im sorry I shook you sha44ss.
Don't worry Darwin, the shaking was just the UFO's from the lack of marijuana. Both in Oregon and Great Meadows.
It's gonna be great to hear all you "the federal govt is so great" people when you're choking on the words "President Trump", and then have the EAT your words when he starts with eminent domain (which he is a fan of, you lefties usually are not... unless it suits YOUR narrative, of course)... I'll bet THOSE protestors will be "patriots", right?
Eperot But the 99%-ers who were selling drugs and shitting on police cars were patriots just exercising their 1A rights.
Riiiiiiiight.............
Code Pink? No doubt brave, courageous patriots committing arson for a good cause.
Umm-hmm.
Oh and let's not forget Bill Ayers and the WEATHER UNDERGROUND. THANK GOD for those stalwart patriots standing up to a corrupt federal government!
What cause are you defending JR?
Which crime was OK?
Because personally I am not defending any of the criminal acts by any of the groups or persons you mention.
Listen to Kris Anne Hall on weekendvigilante.com live now or on archives if you want to know the truth.
http://www.weekendvigilante.com/
Karen Rogers Yea I don't get your point JR. Just because we think these guys were wrong doesn't mean we think the black lives matter protesters/rioters were right
It is actually possible to think BOTH were wrong!! Wow shocking isn't it to not agree with one group just because you disagree with another
I know it might be hard for you to understand free thought but it does exist.
But if you want to make a comparison the only one I will make is I bet if armed black men overtook a govt building it wouldn't have lasted 41.
I never said you praised Black Lives Matter protestors. Nice try at a "gotcha" tho.
JR, you really believe if the people who had taken the bird sanctuary were black (or Muslim, or perhaps members of the Earth Liberation Front) instead of white men of the good ol' boy variety, that more violence would not have been used?
Regardless of your opinion on the MOVE organization, the 1985 bombing that occurred on their compound in Philly with a lot of "collateral damage" was a million times harsher than the 41 day (!) standoff in Oregon.
And when did Code Pink commit arson? They're protesters, not direct action activists.
sha44ss, I think "the shot heard round the world" would've been a heck of a lot more significant if those folks were protesting BLM uranium mine leasing of public lands, rather than the right to overgraze cattle. You don't see Warren County farmers driving cows into our Wildlife Management Areas, nor do you hear them complaining. Times change. BLM's large scale land misuse for potentially physically and environmentally harmful activities is much more significant than the antiquated land use laws of the Old West.
I guess the issue is that the video showed the guy with his hands up. Can't tell if he was shot before or after he dropped them, which I think is the point of dispute. That makes all the difference in the world, does it not?
Just as in previous discussions of death by police, there's a fine line that shouldn't be crossed. From the posts here it sounds like all of you think that murdering this fellow was OK because he was an idiot, broke the law, talked the rebellious talk, and pissed off those in power. Maybe I'm too far out of the societal norm here because it seems to me that collectively (in this thread at least) most believe it's OK to just kill anyone with whom we disagree.
So, anyone have further details of whether he was shot when his hands were up or not? I'd be very interested to hear about that.
justintime JIT below is the link for the video - very grainy and up for interpretation but to me he didn't have his hands up at the time he was shot - earlier yes.
http://www.theguardian.com/us-news/video/2016/jan/28/fbi-police-shooting-oregon-militiaman-lavoy-finicum-video
Thanks Bonv, the video was in the first link too and I tend to agree with you. Crazy situation to put oneself in. But I have no idea if someone shot always drops right away or if they can keep standing for a bit (this isn't the movies after all). If it's assumed he fell immediately after being shot then no question at all.
Just playing devils advocate is all. It's not like this type of thing has never happened before and sometimes people tend to latch onto the negative.
Anyway, there's probably a dash cam or body camera involved somewhere that will tell the story better than a lot of assumptions here...
They could have just arrested this crew. The feds didn't need a roadblock or any guns. The people on the refuge ASKED to meet with the federal government!!! What was the point of a roadblock and guns? The first time they stopped the truck, the feds SHOT at the person who was in the passenger seat of the truck, so Finicum took off. Why didn’t they just use a stun gun on Finicum instead of killing him with NINE shots??? Maybe he wasn't reaching for a gun at all, but maybe he was SHOT IN THE STOMACH first! Where is the sound in the video? Why did they have to keep shooting up the truck? There was an innocent teenager riding in the back!!! Killing this man was totally unnecessary. Amazingly, the others weren’t killed with all the shots fired at the truck. The truth is, the feds were making an example of Lavoy so nobody else will question the feds and let them continue their lawless ways, steal the land, and kill any Americans they want without a trial. The feds already own 40% of the west…but they won’t be happy until they take it ALL!
This whole video is rather sketchy the Feds provided.
1st - at 0:59 they are driving through a road block and this cop jumps right in front of the vehicle - is that procedure?
lol - don't think so.
2nd - at 1:13 a cop strolls out of the woods from behind...what was he doing in the woods? He is standing at the treeline and the other cops are facing him and shooting in his direction???
Very sketchy.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mj1vN_Wf-MM
RU "But the 99%-ers who were selling drugs and shitting on police cars were patriots just exercising their 1A rights."
No, JR, those people were morons too. See? Even a little ole' liberal like me can admit that.
JerryG lol JerryG - maybe we'll do a gofundme...................can't call it non - profit because we would profit from the results but..............thinking about where to place the tinfoil can...........
If Finicum was an unarmed black teenager, rather than an armed anti-government zealot who was reaching into his jacket.... I don't think those opposed to the shooting would be singing the same tune.
I think anytime you are armed and join an armed protest were the leaders are convicted criminals who use arson as a tool or thieves who staged a previous armed standoff protest, one might expect a certain higher risk of violence ensuing.
Everyone of them deserved to be arrested and if one, with a gun, gets shot during an arrest, chances are the tie will go to the runner. As in chances are the police will be exonerated as being in imminent danger.
Exactly KAren>" The feds didn't need a roadblock or any guns. The people on the refuge ASKED to meet with the federal government!!! What was the point of a roadblock and guns?
I have friends that are Ranchers that know the Bundys and the Hammonds (who have been labeled Terrorists by our Gov't for setting 'legal backburns' on their own property! They have stepped up to take a stand after hundreds of Ranchers and Native Indians have lost the rights to their lands because our Corrupt Gov.t overreach to secure them for their own GREEDY ambitions! They want AMERICA to hear the TRUTH!
http://www.truthandaction.org/federal-judge-blm-engaged-decades-long-criminal-conspiracy-ranchers/
The Tactics they use to intimidate the Ranchers have burned 'cattle alive all while claiming they are there to protect endangered species! They could take no more!
Lavoy was a husband, a Father, A grandfather who was killed because he was Teaching the Constitution and spreading the HOPE that people could take a Stand to gain back their land and their Rights!
LAVOY FUNERAL
https://www.facebook.com/105477983124317/videos/vb.105477983124317/229457307393050/?type=2&theater
What makes me sick DARWIN is the Corrupt BLM (who are rumored to be/or have International Mercenaries) was able to infiltrate their peaceful protest with turncoats and other 'trigger happy' militia looking for notoriety eg Riedinger and scum like Pete Santili who undermined their whole cause.
https://www.metabunk.org/pete-santillis-malheur-burns-oregon-fbi-false-flag-conspiracy-theory.t7198/
What makes me sick is the Liberals all over this Country who rejoice at his Death and side with the Gov't that they are Domestic Terrorists and are EVIL eniugh to TAKE THEM OUT! ..while real Terrrorists that threaten us all are being protected and given legal rights and entitlements to our fruits of labor!
Even on here across the Country they spew their vitriol against someone like JR the ONE Patriot who always stands for what our Constitution has kept us Free for hundreds of years Individual Rights and Civil Liberties>!
It is people like JR, 5 cat & gc & jerryg that would stand for YOUR rights if they came for YOU! >Seperating the Wheat from the Chaff.
Liberals are always on the side of controlling our Free Speech and everything we do~!
You are WINNING Liberals! You are on the wrong side and are destroying us all!
Tribute to Lavoy
https://vimeo.com/154155858?ref=fb-share&1
He wasn't reaching for his gun ianimal.
https://www.facebook.com/DMLdaily
Sticks and Stones 5cat...Grow up.
They take over a federal wildlife refuge heavily armed after posting videos on YouTube about how they're willing to kill and/or die: but claim it's "non-violent civil disobedience". Nobody gives a s*it about their "demands" including the Hammonds who they claimed to represent but they claim it's the start of a populist uprising.
The FBI keeps its distance the whole time, and the terrorists say, "they're looking for a reason to kill us". What they're looking for at every step is a reason NOT to kill you, but you haven't helped them much. So when their attempt at confrontation goes on too long, one of the more notorious nuts decides to speed up the revolution.
With these groups up is down. Night is day. War is peace. Freedom is slavery. Ignorance is strength. And terrorism gets once again conflated with protest and patriotism.
Bull$3i% BONV! The Hammonds were threatened to NOT talk to Bundy's!!!
ttps://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Aeeclad8G3E
There really is no way to deal with these kinds of people with reason and debate, their entire self-identity is wrapped up in a particular, utterly simple-minded, and just plain wrong interpretation.
They're zealots. Zealots don't do reason, they don't do democracy, they only do their narrative.
You're talking about yourself Bonv..and it is liberal tactics to turn things around on opponents... did you even WATCH the video of the BLM Burning the Ranchers out?
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Aeeclad8G3E
NO you didn't .. ANYONE watching the Funeral or really listening to these people would feel 'empathy'..to the plight of others and see the Injustice!! You liberals are ALL narcissitic!
and THIS....IS LIBERALS ...NOT Listening to their plea for PEACEFUL Protests and INSTIGATING confrontation!!~
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WeEknN_y8lc
LOL Sha44ss the title of the youtube clip that oyu just posted says
"CBS Anchors Subtly Threaten To Kill Ammon Bundy During Live Interview! "
wow I need to clear the wax out of my ear because I dint hear any threats in that video. Silly things like that don't help your cause, only make it seem wackier.
Full of sha44ss's first article starts:
"U.S. District Court Judge Robert C. Jones states that for over 20 years the Bureau of Land Management engaged in a “literal, intentional conspiracy” against Nevada rancher E. Wayne Hage to force his family out of business."
OK, I am not a rocket scientist by any means but if you, the federal government, is waging a battle for 20 years, aren't you really bad at it?
Then the article states: "Basically, the BLM attempted to destroy the Hage family’s livelihood because he asserted his rights to the land which his family held since the late 19th century."
OK, I am not a rocket scientist but it sounds like this is about Hage's land, not land owned by all of the citizens of The United States of America to which Hage was granted permission to use. When you rent something, do you own it forever?
The truth is a little more nuanced with both Hage and the government seen as doing some wrong; the government more so.
http://elkodaily.com/news/local/judge-sides-with-ranch-family/article_3920d17a-c8d5-11e2-b69c-001a4bcf887a.html
Of course in the long run Judge Jones was seen as a biased bigot and his ruling was tossed, the Hages lost and now they have no permits.
Appears they have been convicted of illegal trespass and have given up the case.
http://www.reviewjournal.com/news/nevada/nevada-ranching-family-loses-federal-lands-court-case
And now you have the rest of the Sha44ss partial truth.
Next?
CASE IN POINT Darwin>>You LIBS just JUMPED on that one!
............they GOT the VIEWS they were seeking didn't they~? and they 'killed' Bundy with their WORDS...just like you ALL do here.....KILLING our Free Speech!
the Title IS grossly misleading...but the biased intent of the CBS anchors to cast Bundy in the wrong with their one sided questions, 'accusory' tones and mannerims....and talking to him like he IS a Domestic Terrorist is despicable!
Show me the CONTENT of Bundy's radicalism here libs? In every video Bundy is quiet and compassionate and unambiguous in his and their INTENT to defend their own RIGHTS... to PEACEFULLY LIVE AND PROSPER!!
"just like you ALL do here.....KILLING our Free Speech!"
killing it? I can't get enough of it!!! all of it, the ending rambling, the unnecessary random CAPS. the weird metaphors with words in " " to make is sound more crazy. the links to weird pointless videos. the funny way you censor swear words (Bull$3i%) All of it, please don't be silent, let it all out. Please keep it coming.
What pissed off the tin foil hats is Thay were looking for a armed show down with the FBI and didn't get it that's why they needed some snacks lol thay thought the GOVERNMENT would come rushing in for them and all the other tin foil hats would come out help them and the people would rise up against the government sorry maybe next time
You got that right 4 cat..(by the way what happened to 5 cat? >>if deceased sorry for your loss)
Political Correctness has cost this Country its soul! I have been called a Bigot and a Racist just for being a Christian and have been oppressed in the past by those word's! It suppresses a Individuals Freedom to their own Beliefs) eg(how everyone succumbed to not saying 'Merry Christmas') Intimidation IS harrassment!
There is zero tolerance for 'idealogical diversity' by the left and it will be our demise!
sha44ss,
Hate to be the one to break it to you, but your being called a bigot and a racist is not about you being a Christian. Your words here on HL are anything but Christian.
Being Christian is about believing in and living a life of tolerance for ALL...not only straight white English-speaking people. It's about being accepting of homosexuals as well as heterosexuals, Spanish-speaking AND English-speaking, immigrants and native-born Americans.
You preach a gospel of exclusion, which is the opposite of what Christianity is about.
Good friggin' grief. It's practically March and we're still hearing about the fictional War on Christmas? Can't you invent a War on Easter to complain about during the springtime to give us a little variety? Is that too much to ask?
Starbucks has just announced that in the spirit of inclusion of all the world's religions, they are not going to issue an Easter-themed cup this year, instead choosing to extol the spirit of Satanism. What do you think about that, sha44ss?
War on Christmas? as ianimal mentioned its almost March and I still have to drive by and see a Nativity Scene on Madison Ave.... when will the Christmas season end!!!!!! LMAO
There is zero tolerance for 'idealogical diversity' by the left and it will be our demise!
wait that doesn't even make any sense. 'ideological diversity' is EXACTLY what the left wants. That is the whole point of "happy holidays" to entertain and respect the fact that there are OTHER religious beliefs other then their own. They understand that in December there are more than just 1 holiday going on.
"killing it? I can't get enough of it!!! all of it, the ending rambling, the unnecessary random CAPS. the weird metaphors with words in " " to make is sound more crazy. the links to weird pointless videos. the funny way you censor swear words (Bull$3i%) All of it, please don't be silent, let it all out. Please keep it coming."
I'm a tolerant person of YOUR views Darwin...You don't see me harshly criticising your's or other's lack of grammatical/ punctuation or composition structure!( I worked in clerical all my life correcting documents)
I've put up with your rambling's , and stranger dangers ramblings and have not harshly critisized and I've seen stranger danger get brutally criticisd for his 'ramblings'> I felt sorry for him actually~ ! My caps and """"is my personal style and my passion for emphasis, and yes, my emotions get the best of me sometimes! and sometimes I AM YELLING! >Out of Frustration. {I would put it in Italics or underline for emphasis if this old PC would let me> SORRY it drives you crazy.}
My 'links' to ....'pointless'..... video's > I would hope people would see the Truth from the mouth's of the Ranchers themselves instead of listening to 'hearsay'...because it is literally people's lives and the lives of their children and granchildren that are being ruined forever by LIES and Trumped up charges and THIS administrations Powerful and corrupt aggression against it's OWN citizens! But I can see you people don't CARE enough about people in general to worry about other people's misfortunes!
This is NOT ''tinfoil' conspiracy! It is REAL and happening right here in our Country! I am hoping the American people will wake up from their 'blind faith' in their government!
We are in dangerous times. When neighbors will turn in their neighbors for 'profit' eg(in Harney County out there in Oregon> half the town WORKS for the BLM!
I don't know you Darwin....but you could count on ME sticking up for YOU~because it is my HEART for Freedom for ALL of US(Indivuals) ...but......Would you stick up for me??
know one here has a blind faith in the government Hell Thay gave me a all expenses paid trip to south Vietnam back in 67 the SOB'S never told me there was a war going on
Jerry G>>>don't start with your >I'm against non English speaking and homosexuals because I am NOT! >I am against ILLEGALS! We have laws. They don't belong here.
I am for same sex marriage because that is my views >>I am against homosexual ''marriage' because it is not condoned by God or the Church! God made Adam and Eve>not Adam & Steve !! Civil Marriage> Go for it~!to each his own!
NO you are wrong Darwin...you and your liberal friends do NOT accept different IDEAS!
DONE HERE> there is no HOPE for Ruthless and Intolerant people!
sha44ss - "I'm a tolerant person of YOUR views Darwin" If you look above you called the people here thieves, "chaff", The Mob, narcissitic [sic], despicable, and more. You are constantly SHOUTING DOWN everyone else. That's not frustration, that's intimidation = harassment for no other reason than people disagree with you. You're right this country has a problem with divisiveness, but unfortunately you've personally become exactly what you're accusing others of.
Not that it's the topic of discussion, however I would also like to say I am a *huge* defender of the Constitution. I personally would and have very much defended people with very different view points than my own.
Bessie GC>>>The first ten posts here were a direct hit on me/ or calling the Patriots out in Oregon Felons and Thugs and that they deserved to DIE for their Right to call for Redress of their Greivances GC......so don't tell me you believe in the Constitution!
So like Trump says....you hit me and I'll hit back...so I'll take the Criticism!
Old Red...the Hammond's had already served their term for the legal backfire's they 'supposedly 'set on purpose...the gov't came back and threw the book at them to make a example of them to throw FEAR into the People!.........
and LAVOY FINICUM who was MURDERED was a Constitutional Educator also who knew his RIGHTS and the laws that he did not break!
Here are the FACTS that I know you will IGNORE for your own narratives! But they are here for anyone that wants to hear the Truth!
GC >>Here is this from a Constitutional Educator and Radio Talk show host Kris Ann Hall if you want real perspective on whats really going on in Oregon!
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=T424sWq1SkE
There are lots of 'independant' Fact finding investigations going on!
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=A1JzuQf4DMU
This is not a Dead issue! This will never Die as long as their are God Loving People fighting for the the TRUTH and the survival of this Country!
lmao. you're a poser. if you actually gave a shit, you wouldn't be on an East coast messageboard a month too late.
Whip Oh yeah the facts who's yours your just a another tin foil hat who believes anything another tin foil hat puts on YouTube you live in a bubble and no amount of real facts can get in I feel sorry for you
Oldred has been gone for a while. Now all of a sudden "bam" he's back. Must have just gotten out.
auntiel Welcome back Oldred, I hope everything was Ok with you. I realize some of the discussion lately was not very informative.
Old Gent sha44ss,
You wrote:
"LAVOY FINICUM who was MURDERED was a Constitutional Educator..."
No, he wasn't. He was a lawbreaker and part of an illegal occupation of government land. He committed a criminal act.
Oh, and the lawbreakers in Oregon were not patriots, they were domestic terrorists, illegally occupying a federal facility through threat of violence.
"I am for same sex marriage because that is my views >>I am against homosexual ''marriage' because it is not condoned by God or the Church!"
Well, which is it, for same sex marriage or against? You do understand that same-sex marriage IS a marriage between homosexuals, right? Are you confusing yourself as much as you're confusing everyone else?
Please tell us which Church you belong to that condemns people who have different views from you?
I thought Jesus loved everyone even the people that persecuted him? That's what I was taught....
positive Well positve, I slept on it and ... You are so right..Jesus did love all that persecuted him, even when he was on the cross dying, He said.".Forgive them Father, for they know not what they do! ....".I remember this...
http://www.gotquestions.org/thief-on-the-cross.html
and then there were two thieves on the cross and they mocked and they blasphemied him. as did many of the spectators....
**It is remarkable that, while in the excruciating and mind-numbing torment of the cross, the Son of Man had the heart, mind, and will to pray for others. Yet it is a miracle that one thief, while in agony himself, heard the Spirit of God call him to repentance and acceptance of the forgiveness God was just about to provide through the death of Christ. While the disciples were abandoning the Lord, this man answered the call, and his sins were forgiven, including his blasphemy against the Son of God (Luke 5:31-32, 12:8–10).
So one thief " responed in Faith and was taken to Paradise with the Lord that very day. while the other man did not respond and is now suffering from a deadly and eternal mistake."
You are so very right positive...Jesus does call us to walk in the Spirit..and now I am a thief also because I have sinned as.. I am no different from you.
So today I repent my sin of hate Lord> Hate for these people who believe so differently than me ... I don't understand how I am to Love the very people that blashemy you and would condemn their brothers and sisters to suffer Injustices while they enjoy the Fruits and Labors of the same people....Lord...I just don't get it somedays Lord.
I ask your forgiveness today and I thank you for your sacrifice and the gift of your blood that dark day that promises our salvation. I pray for their salvation also Lord God, Heavenly Father.... and I pray the Lord's prayer, in the name of Jesus your earthly Son:
Our Father, Who art in Heaven, hallowed be Thy name; Thy Kingdom come, Thy will be done on earth as it is in Heaven. Give us this day our daily bread; and forgive us our trespasses as we forgive those who trespass against us; and lead us not into
temptation, but deliver us from 'evil' Lord...Yes... deliver us from evil
Amen.
Hot corner So if we don't subscribe to sha44ss' beliefs then we are evil sinners? Well, THAT'S a very "Christian" way to look at other people.
And please, what does this have to do with domestic terrorism in Oregon??
" domestic terrorism in Oregon"
Ahh, the programmed response is taking hold. How about just saying "criminals in Oregon", because that's what they are? Using the catchall "terrorism" phrase does NOTHING except give justification for using a more forceful response due to the emotional triggers elicited by the word terrorism that's been programmed into our psyche over the past couple decades. So is that what you're really saying JerryG, that these particular folks are more threatening and deserve to be eradicated because of their beliefs (that you happen to disagree with, of course)?
Sha44ss, while I don't believe the same as you on practically anything, what you wrote was written very well and beautiful in that you are a true believer. May peace be with you.
RAS JIT,
Looks like the pot is calling the kettle black JIT. A few posts back you stated that Lavoy Finicum was "murdered". Sounds like what you were just describing, no?
Also, I disagree with your premise.
" Using the catchall "terrorism" phrase does NOTHING except give justification for using a more forceful response due to the emotional triggers elicited"
I disagree. calling a group of Armed men that overtook a government building with a list of demands is by definition "terrorists"
Not sure how you got that Gadfly. Law enforcement personnel are NOT allowed to just kill people - are you implying they are allowed to on any whim they choose? I was merely pointing out earlier that many here seemed to be justifying the killing of Finicum because he was a known criminal and NOT because he presented an imminent threat to the officers. Certainly if he was shot with his hands up those celebrating his death would be 100% wrong, wouldn't you agree? That's all I was saying.
And which premise don't you agree with, the use of the word "terrorism" or "terrorist" continually being used to cause an emotional reaction in those hearing it (think of Pavlov's studies here)? Using the word to justify additional punishment that probably isn't warranted under existing law? That premise?
JIT,
Everyone is entitled to their beliefs; what I disagree with is their armed occupation and breaking of the law. There are other, peaceful ways, of making their point without initiating an action that resulted in someone's death. And make no mistake, had this group not broken the law in the first place, Lavoy Finicum would still be alive.
The Merriam-Webster dictionary defines terrorism as "the use of violent acts to frighten the people in an area as a way of trying to achieve a political goal." Are you denying that armed men forcefully occupying a federal facility and preventing the lawful occupants from entering is a violent act? Certainly the people in the area were vocal in their wishes that the lawbreakers leave. http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/terrorism
Whether or not I disagree with their beliefs is irrelevant; what I am opposed to is armed people breaking the law.
Darwin, historically they would be called criminals - which they are. The "terrorist" moniker is relatively new in the mainstream vernacular, probably the last couple of decades or so.
"Sha44ss, while I don't believe the same as you on practically anything, what you wrote was written very well and beautiful in that you are a true believer."
Until the next vitriolic racist rant. Time will tell
JerryG, I don't recall even once commenting about their guilt or innocence. They took illegal actions and should be held to task. But our legal system doesn't change because you happen to really dislike these guys. Law enforcement collects the bad guys so they can be tried in the judiciary - that's the way the system works, right? So why would you be surprised by my reminding everyone that's the way it's supposed to be?
JIT, I didn't see anyone justify Vinicum's death based on his beliefs. I think you're making a lot of false assumptions. The people referring to Lavoy's crimes and bizarre ideas were disputing the label "patriot", not justifying his death. Furthermore, I specifically called his death a "suicide by cop". In case you're not familiar with that term, it refers to a person intentionally behaving in a threatening manner toward police to elicit one's a violent response, often resulting in death.
Your use of the word "murder" is particularly egregious because that term is distinct from "killing" in that must involve premeditation and it must be illegal. You can argue about whether the shooting was premeditated and illegal, but that's an enormous assumption and you've presented no evidence for either. It seems that you choose the word "murder" largely to elicit an emotional reaction.
Sorry Gadfly, I reread the thread and realize I took much of what I've read on this subject outside of HL and attributed it here. The bulk of posters above have not outwardly celebrated his death.
And "death by cop" has come up more than once. It's pretty self-explanatory, and necessarily requires a life-threatening situation for it to occur.
"It seems that you choose the word "murder" largely to elicit an emotional reaction."
I chose the word to punctuate the difference between "self-defense under threat of harm" and "trial-by-police to get their man". The word is true and factual depending on the actual circumstance, no? All I'm saying above is to not discount the emotional component on the part of law enforcement who've, for months now, have had their hands tied to not enforce the law against these people. Your feelings are mirrored probably 100x over by those officers close to the situation, and I'm assuming that they are professional enough to keep their cool. But emotions do tend to the get the upper hand in tense situations.
Anyway, since I conflated my response in that post with others I've read on different forums I apologize for directing it at people here. Information overload.
...and since MOVIES is where we get our "reality", that would makes sense for people like you, Darwin.
JIT said (spot on)
"Using the catchall "terrorism" phrase does NOTHING except give justification for using a more forceful response due to the emotional triggers elicited by the word terrorism that's been programmed into our psyche over the past couple decades. So is that what you're really saying JerryG, that these particular folks are more threatening and deserve to be eradicated because of their beliefs (that you happen to disagree with, of course)?"
If anything, the rioters in Ferguson were more "terrorizing" than any of the people in Oregon. But I never heard THEM called "terrorists"... looting, burning, stealing..... sounds like "terror" to me. By comparison the oregon people were having a PEACEFUL (albeit armed) protest. Like in Utah- PEACEFUL but armed.
...and since MOVIES is where we get our "reality", that would makes sense for people like you, Darwin.
well might be a better place to find "reality" then the numerous fake news stories you fall for. :)
"but it was really a tongue and cheek comment... and the word terrorists has been used in reality since the 1960/1970s. Probably the 1972 Olympics was the first mainstream use of the term.
So is that what you're really saying JerryG, that these particular folks are more threatening and deserve to be eradicated because of their beliefs (that you happen to disagree with, of course)?""
more force? What force? they let them play "Patriots" for 41days while staying far away from them. They finally tried to conduct a traffic stop and 1 reached for his gun and got shot. No where near the level of force that would have been used if the weren't white American men.
Darrin, the word has taken on a life of its own during my lifetime, especially since 911. It's used for all manner of crimes now vs the traditional holy crap events in the past. But the real change is in legal circles in which traditional legal protections (read freedoms) can be suspended more easily with the classification. Definitely a change going on whenever that word is used.
"Darrin". now that hurts... rather you call me a terrorist..
j/k Darrin you know I luv ya :)
"more force? What force?"
I agree that LE exhibited far too much restraint early on. But that wasn't the point of my comment, it was about using the "T" word for the situation, a classification that immediately invokes thoughts of immediate and excessive action.
The bottom line is that the authorities did everything they could to arrest these people in a the manner most likely to avoid bloodshed. They were quite successful in about 16 of 17 cases. Unfortunately, one man decided that he would rather die than be arrested.
Overall, I think that the FBI and Oregon State Police deserve high praise for how they handled the situation.
Of course, none of that matters to the extremists that will invent stories to suit their ideology no matter what the facts may be. Nor will it matter to the armchair extremists, who will believe whatever story suits their ideology, no matter how incredible.
Nor does it matter to the armchair statists who think there must never be any reason ever to stand up to the federal govt, because the federal govt can do no wrong (so long as "their guy" is in the White House, anyway)
It was a PEACEFUL protest. With the exception of the guy who lead the feds on a car chase. I can't wait for some other peaceful protestors to get arrested next time- maybe it'll be 99%-ers who occupy a public property? (I doubt it)
"Overall, I think that the FBI and Oregon State Police deserve high praise for how they handled the situation."
I agree.
"nor will it matter to the armchair extremists, who will believe whatever story suits their ideology, no matter how incredible"
I disagree. You're taking personal offense because you don't think people should ever question LE actions. You also seem to take offense of the view that even slime buckets have a right to life, and that only the judiciary has the power in our society to lawfully take life. Relax. In the vast majority of cases your beliefs coincide with reality (thankfully). Don't get so uptight when others take the "trust but verify" view. If no one ever took that view we'd really be in trouble!
It was far from a peaceful protest. It was sedition by men armed with guns and explosives, who threatened to use those weapons against the authorities if they tried to enforce the law.
"Nor does it matter to the armchair statists who think there must never be any reason ever to stand up to the federal govt, because the federal govt can do no wrong (so long as "their guy" is in the White House, anyway)"
Many on the left and the right for that matter have been protesting many things including "their guy" or "that other guy" in the White House. Just not too many take over buildings at the point of a gun.
JIT. From my history of posting on this site I don't know how you could possibly say that I "don't think people should ever question LE actions."
I also don't see how you could possibly claim that sha44ss has adopted a "trust but verify" view.
It was far more peaceful than all the thugs in Ferguson, and all the protestors in the "occupy" movement.
The difference is that I don't recall any nimrods referring to the Ferguson criminals as "patriots". I believe they were called "animals" and "thugs". I think those terms apply equally well to welfare ranchers who burglarize and occupy government buildings by force.
I was merely comparing different "protests" with regards to how "peaceful" they were.
For the record, the Occupiers took public areas by force (by sheer numbers, which is force), and the thugs in Ferguson used quite a bit of "force", I think you'll remember.
You act as if the Oregon protestors "shot their way in", which of course they did not.
I can't speak for sha44ss Gadfly, only myself.
My take on sha44sss views is that he/she sees current trends and extrapolates them to a definitive outcome that is extremely hard to digest. In all honesty, if nothing changed regarding the current trend of passing laws to enforce all manner of limits on our freedoms (limits imposed simply due to the "possibility" that bad things may happen, which is what most laws are today - don't do A because B "might" happen) then I could also envision similar outcomes. IOW, the incessant control that has/is being placed upon the citizenry is certain to cause blowback. It's really not that hard to see if you just look around objectively at the anger in this country and step back to see why it's there.
The problem with his/her view is that things *will* change before it gets to the point of revolution (my sincere hope anyway). So while I read some of sha44ss' posts and shake my head I do understand why the sentiment is there. IMO ignoring it is just as crazy as extrapolating the dire views.
As more of these intrusive and controlling laws are passed, you will see more episodes like Utah and Oregon. I've been saying it for years- it's just a matter of time. Actions have consequences- on BOTH sides.
I find it interesting so many on HL want people to "look at WHY the terrorists are doing what they're doing" (i.e., it's the American government's fault, at least in part), yet when America's own citizens act out against their government, WHY they are doing it is irrelevant, and they are just "domestic terrorists".
It's called hypocrisy.
I got an interesting email this morning, of a bill that passed the house that attempts moves things in the RIGHT ("right"as in CORRECT) direction, for a change... maybe more publicized events like Utah and Oregon will, in the future, turn some heads in DC to the fact that some overstepping of bounds is going on by the govt.....
http://www.washingtonexaminer.com/house-passes-bill-to-open-federal-lands-for-gun-lovers/article/2584373?custom_click=rss
Thanks JR
I'm praying for all of U.S,
NO NO KESHAGESH
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XKmAb1gNN74
In this case it was a criminal act to protest criminal acts, a double down if you will.
Amazingly you are questioning how criminals with guns end up being shot.
Much of this is about overgrazing, protecting water supplies and protecting public federal lands that locals want returned to the state so they can lower those protections.
In many of the legal cases, the protestors have sided with those who just feel they shouldn't pay for the land they use but don't own.
Overregulation? Perhaps, but not in the Bundy case nor the Oregon case.
Overreach. WAY too much "federal land" out there....
Overreach = pushback.
And you seem to imply that a criminal act by the govt does not warrant a criminal act by the people who OWN the govt? There's your problem.... actions have consequences.
JR,
Are you saying that two wrongs make a right? There is a definite cause and effect here. Lavoy Finicum would not be dead if Ammon Bundy and the rest of his gang of lawbreakers had not illegally occupied a govenrnment compound.
Action = illegal occupation by armed criminals
Consequence = dead criminal
What I'm saying is, if you poke the bull, don't be surprised when you get the horns- and that goes for BOTH sides. Eventually, the bull wins- and again, that goes for BOTH sides.
You get enough incidents like this racking up, and the groups that show up to "protest" are going to be bigger than LE wants to "handle". It would be better for the govt to BACK OFF, because if some kind of revolution happens, the blood will be on the GOVT's hands. The people will merely be reacting to what they perceive as tyranny, and THIER perception is what it's all about.
A lot of you people like the nanny state, the role of govt as parent. A lot of us don't, and that is not the way the govt was designed to be. It has gotten too big for it's britches in many instances. The people will only listen to the "because we said so" for so long.... actions have consequences. The govt is not our parent or our keeper, with the exception of national defense against FOREIGN invaders.
I suggest a lot of you need to go back and do some in-depth study on the founding and the revolution. But then, I suspect most of you would have been loyalists, so..... it would probably be for naught.
What nonsense! JR, you're aligning yourself with people who essentially don't recognize the authority of the federal government- not even to own land. They pretend to be students of the constitution, but what they really believe in is a twisted mythology of their own invention.
JR,
So the government should allow people to break the law?
Sorry, but I disagree. If an incident occurs, the blood will be on the hands of the lawbreakers.
We are a nation of laws, and I think most would rather live in that nation, than in one that was lawless.
Nanny state? You know that’s exactly what this is about and you are on the wrong side of the playground fence.
The protestors have been living off the nanny state their entire lives and they want to further control those good times by stealing even more. They are looking for something for nothing and because, JR, you hold yourself as some sort of constitutional warrior, you condone armed protest, even think its justified due to illegal governmental intrusion.
Bunk.
First, this land is my land, this land is your land. We bought it, we paid for it. It is America’s land, not Utah’s or the Bundy’s. They had their chance to buy it when we turned around and made settlers one heck of a deal to purchase and settle it. And they did. We only stopped selling it when they stopped buying. Today, Bundy level ranchers could never afford to buy the amount of land needed for their cows, if we put it up for sale only huge corporations could invest that kind of cash. Instead they are looking for something for nothing.
The federal land you showed is not really a single unit. Try my map. There is park land and fish and wildlife preserves, should we settle that or give it to the Bundys of the West? There are BLM lands, almost 2/3 of the total. Much of this is available for ranching and mining. The rental rates are extremely low. All we ask is that they follow our rental rules. You and I subsidize these low prices and if we turned it over to the states, the first thing that would happen is rental prices would go up or the states would go broke without your and my money supporting them. You and I spend $1.2B for just the BLM to manage this every year. Utah alone would lose $275M a year if they took over. The next biggest portion is forestry lands available for replenish able forestry by private concerns at favorable rates that you and I subsidize. Much of the total land is too mountainous to ranch so should also be subtracted. We call that the Rockies.
So these “patriots” that you align with have been picking our pockets for years and now they want to dig deeper even though they can’t afford to own it to begin with. Even with rent controlled prices, they don’t want to follow our rental rules but instead want to steal our land and ruin it. No doubt they want us to keep subsidizing them to do that to.
We have a process to change the rules; they are 100% free to take part in changing the rules. They are not locked out of the process like they would be with a private landlord. But if they take guns and storm our property, they should go to jail or worse.
http://www.nytimes.com/2016/01/06/upshot/why-the-government-owns-so-much-land-in-the-west.html?_r=0
Perhaps you should do more research yourself.
This is why the inevitable WILL happen. You people refuse to see anything but ONE side of the action/reaction paradigm. You act as if the "law" is only for the "subjects"- as if it's not possible for the govt to break the law- or more important, that the government who WRITES the laws can't possibly break them- I'm sure you can see (actually I'm not sure) the "conflict of interest" in that system... no?
If a republican administration passed a law that allowed the government to screen all your communications without a warrant of any kind- or search your house without a warrant of any kind (because the constitution has become meaningless with all the "interpretations"), would you people set back and say "oh well- that's the law, and the law is the law". I doubt it. Or passed a law that made it illegal to have gatherings on public lands? (no more protests, no more occupiers, no more anti-bush anti-war demonstrations on main street)? I doubt it. Because you value those freedoms.
You lefties have freedoms and liberties that you enjoy and want to keep. So do us righties. Your freedoms and liberties are no more important than ours. Yours are "right" and ours "wrong" (according to you). Your side needs to wake up and see that when ANY SIDE looses a liberty, WE ALL lose it.
Thank God for the civil rights movement- without that pushback, we would still have segregation. (thank God for republicans back in the civil war, or we would still have slavery). Voting for representatives is but one way we try to tell the govt what we the people want; but when a govt gets corrupt and arrogant enough as to ignore what the people are trying to tell them, we have a problem. Hence Trumps steamrolling popularity. Pushback. The founders knew this would happen, and it is the MAJOR reason 2A was written- you can keep denying it all you want, but that don't make true.
SD- you wanna throw down on the founding and revolution? Anytime, baby. Anytime. Name the place and time.
I've been saying it for years. Action = reaction. Mark my words, it's coming. The only question is, will something like a Trump win delay it from happening, because the people will perceive his victory in their still having some amount of control over what happens? Because that's what Trump is ALL about, I know it terrifies you. It inspires some of us.
Action = reaction. ENOUGH action = revolutionary reaction. It's mankind + time. It's always happened, it will always happen. Because humankind doesn't change. And humans are apparently too stupid or arrogant to learn from their mistakes- from history.
If the government wants less pushback, then need to step back. And start LISTENING. Period. This is OUR country- not theirs.
they WORK FOR US.
"f a republican administration passed a law that allowed the government to screen all your communications without a warrant of any kind"
Who do you think came up with the Patriot Act?
JR, your posts are all bluster and no substance. Please tell us how exactly the criminals in Oregon were oppressed.
They were motivated by absurd misinterpretations of the constitution. They've consistently lost their arguments in the courts, and so they conspired to seize federal land by force. They wanted to provoke a fight with the federal government. Well, they got it, and now they'll all be occupying federal institutions for a long time.
+ 1 JR, "All your property now belongs to Neegan", just because . . . . . .
the libs are off base as usual in their 'safe' world of big government thinking the feds own all that land anyways, they don't. it's not their land, and it's certainly not SD's property. maybe the feds should go over to his property and 'enforce' some land use edicts. he's sure to have a turtle around there somewhere, i bet there are several violations of bureaucratic regulations that he is guilty of not following. the feds should be notified and come down hard with a swat team or two. lock the place down tight and lock up anyone they find :)
BrotherDog The laws in question were both right and left passed. You're off base.
The transgressions the westeners complain about have raged for decades covering Republican and Democratic administrations.
Are you actually picking a physical fight with me? Have you gone Trump?
When territory is initially acquired (think Louisiana Purchase or Alaska), of course all the land is under the ownership of the federal government; they're the entity that purchased it. So, any lands not specifically sold or otherwise transferred to private interests remain under their ownership. This isn't rocket science.
You people are all missing the big picture. It's not about the specifics of oregon; it's about the people's perception (perception is reality) of government overreach. It's only going to get worse, until "something happens". Because government will never step back.
I'm not aligning with anyone- I'm just telling you what's going to happen. It WILL happen. It's already happened several times in our history, the 2 biggest ones of course being the revolutionary war and the civil war. And, of course, the WINNERS wrote the history on those....
It's just a matter of time. The only thing that changes is the length of time before it happens, based entirely upon the government's willing ness to realize it, and step back (or not, and step forward.) Mark my words: there will be more Utahs and Oregons in the near future. Unless someone like Cruz gets elected and tries to pull govt back, and frankly, as corrupt as our govt it at this point, I'm not sure it's even possible to slow it down. May have to just drive off the cliff and try to pick up the pieces at the bottom. We'll see... or our children will, at least.
Wow. You believe the civil war was about government overreach against the will of the people. Guess you weren't including the will of most of the people living in the south. Or maybe you just don't count them as people.
Not sure in any rational world you can lump those causes together.
Oh I see, the criminals in Oregon didn't need a specific reason to be justified in their crimes. A general dissatisfaction with government is enough to warrant seizing a federal facility by force.
Please answer me one specific question. Why do you keep referring to an incident in Utah?
SD,
Ask the people in the SOUTH and yes- they will tell you it WAS about govt overreach. But as I said- the WINNERS write the history, so...
They don't still call it "the war of northern aggression" down there for nothing.
And I'm not picking sides- I'm just telling you the civil war WAS MOST DEFINITELY about govt overreach and usurpation of states rights- to the people in the south. Perception is reality. The people in the south REACTED to what they perceived as govt overreach.
JR, a more appropriate analogy would be the leftist "revolutionaries" of the '60s and '70s.
That's probably a lot closer to the eventual scale than all-out Civil War.
I never said what "scale" we were talking about... but larger than Utah and Oregon, for sure. I doubt there will be another civil war, but if we end up in an all-out economic collapse, with all the metro areas resembling Ferguson, we're gonna' end up with something more resembling the walking dead than the civil war. More of a societal breakdown. Federal govt couldn't handle or control that, even breaking the constitution (yet again) and using the US military as a domestic police force. They simply don't have the firepower and numbers.
Are you talking about the polygamists running the welfare scam? You're defending them now too?
Ron Paul Warned about an Armed BLM in 1997
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MDYavVAZRLw
It's the MEDIA stupid.
http://21stcenturywire.com/2016/01/07/activists-or-terrorists-how-media-control-and-dictate-the-narrative-in-burns-oregon/
Patriots do not arm themselves, wear body armor, and take over government buildings. Neither do "public advocates," which is what the article sha44ss shared the above link to, calls Mr. Bundy.
However, criminals (and domestic terrorists) do.
Yeah, JR never picks sides and or advocates violence. Even when you invite me to throw down any time, any place :>)
OK, I think I kinda get what you are saying although your explanation and examples are very, very bad.
I think you are saying there is public unrest and therefore, at some point, perhaps, trouble will ensure. If that's your point, I agree.
But if you say there will be a revolution, well, you know, it just won't happen in this world. If you tell me that it's natural evolution, well, you know, a few thugs won't change the world.
And therein lies the difference. Scope and size. People are frustrated with the results of our economy and the status quo's handling of the whole affair. Both on the right and left but for different and drastically different reasons. And trouble may ensue especially if protestors storm buildings and are armed. These two groups will not join forces given the current causes. Their scopes are different.
The second difference is size. This is not even a huge regional affair, yet, like the entire South for the Civil War. It's a few farmers and their fans and doubtful it will grow much beyond that. Especially since the core activists are known criminals acting in a further criminal action.
They are not constitutionalists; they are criminals. They can talk about government overreach, but they are getting subsidized land at rock bottom prices and just want more. They want to steal.
For similar reasons I don't think Occupy Wall Street ever had a chance. Decentralized control and messages, unruly protests will criminal acts, not a beckoning group to join forces with. And who knows what they want. It's a message mish-mosh.
The Tea Party was the most recent best hope for a large scale revolution but again, decentralized control and messages, lack of or too many leaders, and while they have not imploded, they are a much weaker force today. Especially given their results in office. The were the best hope because they were more inclusive, even with their crazies seems to control their protests, and sort of had a core message.
I also agree that if the economy fails, or the debt collapses, that all bets are off. But that's a different protest altogether.
We hear your conclusions as to the causes for The Civil War but most certainly it was not Northern aggression against Southern Culture. That's just feel-good branding. It was more like Northern aggression against the expansion of the Southern Culture to the West. And by Southern Culture, we mean slavery. Stopping the expansion of slavery in the West is only an attack on the power brokers in the South, not of the entire South.
Frankly the only thing attacking slavery in the South at the time of the Civil War was time. Given the advances in agriculture technology, slavery would have ended naturally as machine power became cheaper than slave power. That day was on the horizon. But the power elite kept pushing to advance slavery to the new states. And that's what caused the South to initially secede.
"Patriots do not arm themselves, wear body armor,
However, criminals (and domestic terrorists) do."
As well as jack-booted government thugs.
BTW, the founders would disagree with your statement.
SD,
"throw down" is a debate, stupid... not a fight. Let me know when you're willing.
Think you already lost name-caller :>)
Start a thread.
Actually throw down was invented by rappers to instigate a "rap off" or a throw down. It then morphed to mean fight, as in physical confrontation. You just gotta keep up with the street homey. But I hear ya, sista :>) Start a thread.
"throw down" is a debate"
OMG even the Food Network is promoting violence!!! They have Throw Downs AND Knife Fights...
http://www.foodnetwork.com/shows/throwdown-with-bobby-flay.html
http://www.foodnetwork.ca/shows/knife-fight/episode-guide/
Mark Mc. SD>"The Tea Party was the most recent best hope for a large scale revolution but again, decentralized control and messages, lack of or too many leaders, and while they have not imploded, they are a much weaker force today.
I Beg to differ with you> we are bigger than ever!
http://www.breitbart.com/video/2016/01/21/limbaugh-trump-coalition-an-offshoot-of-the-tea-party-movement/
Number of Republicans claiming affiliation is done. Success in winning seats is down.
They are still a powerful movement but only bigger and better in your mind.
Is Trump affilated with them? I did not think you favored universal health care.
JR,
If you're going to qoute me for your own purposes, please quote the ENTIRE comment. What I said was:
"Patriots do not arm themselves, wear body armor, and take over government buildings. Neither do "public advocates," which is what the article sha44ss shared the above link to, calls Mr. Bundy.
However, criminals (and domestic terrorists) do."
So federal agents and police, performing their jobs by attempting to apprehend armed lawbreakers, are "jack-booted government thugs?"
Perhaps if you are ever in need of assistance from the police, perhaps you can request they not send you any "jack-booted thugs."
I''ll throw down with you strangerdummy with one arm tied behind my back ! By universal healthcare you mean healthcare for people that don't have an alarm clock. Democrats - Everything you've ever wanted for free just vote for me .... Hillary for Prison !
Jerry G> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vQ_1etw31HQ
http://21stcenturywire.com/2016/01/28/21wire-reporter-federal-government-escalated-violence-in-oregon-standoff
http://farmwars.info/?p=14481
http://www.nytimes.com/2015/04/24/us/cash-flowed-to-clinton-foundation-as-russians-pressed-for-control-of-uranium-company.html
http://www.wnd.com/2016/01/oregon-shootout-rooted-in-clinton-uranium-trade/
Hmm not sure what happened..I will just say it on here.
Being the minority requires strength and courage, even if I don't agree with you on some of the issues I do respect you for standing up and not faltering on your beliefs.
All righty then. Let's throw down, anywhere, anytime. Come on JR, Mark and Truth. Truth, be sure to tie that arm. Mark, wear your apron. Throw away..... You start. Throw.
Lol SD, you certainly lash out when you are proven wrong in the slightest.
Perhaps thats why you think the rest of us are so violence prone... projection.
I guess a food network guy would see that as lashing out :-)
Lash, lash, sigh...
"Perhaps if you are ever in need of assistance from the police, perhaps you can request they not send you any "jack-booted thugs."
Thanks to 2A right, police will not be necessary. My muzzle velocity exceeds police response time.
"Thanks to 2A right, police will not be necessary. My muzzle velocity exceeds police response time."
There are a lot of instances where police assistance can be required where you would not be legally able to handle it yourself with a gun.
"There are a lot of instances where police assistance can be required where you would not be legally able to handle it yourself with a gun." Hmmm. Sounds more like an anti-gun argument. After all, if we can't really rely on our guns, why have them, eh? Again, hmmmm.
Flapjack And if it's a situation that *I* can't handle with a gun, then it's a situation *they* can't handle with a gun, so they don't need their body armor and fully automatic weapons anyway.
What? The gun is not the panacea for all problems? Go figure.
"throw down" is a debate, stupid... not a fight." Well, calling someone stupid is not the smart way to engage in discussion.
Throwdown is actually derived from "throw down the gauntlet" meaning an invitation to a fight. As a verb, it generally means to fight.
As a noun, in the current street slang vernacular, throw down was first co-opted by rappers to describe a competition. Then everyone co-opted that to mean any kind of fight or competition. As a noun, it can also mean a planted gun at a crime scene.
So, when you say “SD- you wanna throw down on the founding and revolution? Anytime, baby. Anytime. Name the place and time” you seem to be asking for some kind of fight. And when you ask for your target to name the place and time, you confirm you are not asking for a HL debate.
Words have meanings. You have often proffered violence while shielding your true intent with ambiguous words and double meanings. Weasel words are what I call them. You do this when talking armed revolution and now you are getting personal with your threats. When pushed on it re revolution, you say you never meant to advocate or desire violence, you meant it might happen. This time you said fight, you asked me to pick a location, and then you said you meant debate.
Either learn the language or own up to the fact that you’re misstating your true intent. In this case, you said fight, you meant debate. Did you still want to meet somewhere for said debate or would HL be sufficient. If the latter, like I said, open the thread. “Anytime baby.”
"There are a lot of instances where police assistance can be required where you would not be legally able to handle it yourself with a gun."
Actually, it sounds like more of a reason to change the "law".
Self defense should never be illegal. Is your life worth less when you're in a post office?
So now you're an "original meaning and intent" kinda guy, huh SD?
Interesting how you've supported an "evolution" of 27 other very simple words in a quite well known phrase...
here you go sha44ss, Mr. handout Ammon Bundy and the rest of the land users are begging for money for their defense. Since you believe in his cause so much and you are the only Patriot here, I'm sure you have no problem donating some of your hard earned money to him, right?
https://www.fundedjustice.com/en/projects/28054-Ammon-Bundy---Legal-Defense-Fund
http://bundyranch.blogspot.com/p/contact-list-attorney-general-state-on.html
also here is a nice article showing the timeline and the local ranchers opinion of the standoff. Amazingly non of them agreed with it. I guess they just aint Patriots!'
http://www.rawstory.com/2016/02/what-it-was-like-to-spend-five-weeks-embedded-with-the-bundy-militants-in-oregon/
The unfortunate reality of the ranchers in the area is that their way of life is creeping to an end. To ranch in the desert takes A LOT of land and scale to make it work. Another reality is that land prices are at a historical high and buying more land is not a reality. Using land owned by the American tax payer to make money without compensating America for that use is simply stealing. People with non-commercial interests use the land freely for recreation purposes free of charge or for a small day permit fee in some instances. Fairly low impact stuff.
What the ranchers object to is paying a use fee or protecting lands from the damage that herds of cattle cause. This refuge is a spot of green in a sea of brown. Prime grazing land. But it does not belong only to the ranchers, it belongs to all Americans.
If the ranchers can't make it on their own land, they need to sell to the neighbor and move on or buy out their neighbor's operation so they have the grazing land they need to keep going.
Positive & RAS Sorry I didn't get back to you right away >Life's got a way of getting complicated sometimes especially with kids and grandkids but Thankyou for your kind comments!
Guess I am getting old and things have 'progressed' to where I Am in the minority!Sign of the Times I guess. But I DO have Faith!
Darwin...I already have all of those posts on my FB page from months ago. I didn't just pick this topic out of the blue...
... I have friends out there who are friends with the Bundy's . My very good friend knows Lisa Bundy, Ammons wife; and I donated many weeks ago for Ammons defense and I have had posts on my FB page since December helping them to keep this in the spotlight so people all across the Country will know what is really going on. Of course there are LOTS of stories out there like the one you posted with different narratives because the FBI and BLM have help from the lefties to cover their indiscretions. Until THIS administration and this DOJ is gone the BIG FISH like Hillary Clinton will get away with murder!
so Sharon when none of your facebook friends comment or even "likes" you posts about this subject doesn't that tell you something.
Yeah. It says that the left is intercepting messages. They do the same thing when the ranchers post the truth on the web. All you see is lies written by the left. Rhe ranchers didnt have guns. Those were pasted into pictures before posting on the web. Only i know the truth because i have friends who dont use the internet to communicate. We have a soecial way to do it. I tell the truth.
JR,
So you'll handle a medical emergency in your home, or a smell of smoke, or being involved in an automobile accident, or a myriad of other situations where rational people depend on the police (aka "jack-booted government thugs") for help by pulling your gun?
Not everything you need the police for is related to violence...too bad your opinion of the police is so low.
JR why do you seems to be for the lack of a better word dieing to use your gun on someone
These wack jobs, live off of government assistance, suckling at the teat of federal subsidies on BLM land getting government loans only to default on them. Take over a federal preserve, that essential you and I own, point guns at and threaten anyone that disagrees with them. Claim that God is on their side so the government should give them even more money. Make a major show of the weapons they have and their willingness to use them on camera, internet and to anyone that listens. And you are surprised when while running from the police, waving guns and spouting threats they get shot.
Sorry I have no sympathy. If anything I admire the restraint the officer displayed not shooting more of them in the haze of war these terrorists displayed. I for one hope they are jailed, they are prevented from any access to BLM land or federal resources other than those provided to all persons in a prison. Might stop this crap from happening again.
There are real issues facing ranchers in the West, there are real problems with how the feds manage our lands. these guys did not address them and quite simply set back decades of efforts to try and reconcile the rifts.
Agust "Rather than manage and control his cattle, he lets them run wild on the public lands with little, if any, human interaction until such time when he traps them and hauls them off to be sold or slaughtered," said court documents filed by federal prosecutors last month. "He does not vaccinate or treat his cattle for disease; does not employ cowboys to control and herd them; does not manage or control breeding; has no knowledge of where all the cattle are located at any given time; rarely brands them."
http://www.foxnews.com/us/2016/03/02/bundys-million-dollar-herd-ornery-cattle-giving-feds-meaty-problem.html?intcmp=hpbt2
It's BS Darwin...why don't you read some of the comments on the live feed....of course you can cut and paste the libtard version next!!
loveitorleave1776 1 minute ago
The cows are less of burden than those on welfare. The grass grows for free. Welfare recipients need tax dollars to feed their herds.
reasonableone 5 minutes ago
Oh no Mr Bill.... He lets his cattle roam free, and he doesn't give them drugs! Anywhere else in liberal America, that would be called, "organic, free range, and sustainable", but when you run afoul of the Feds, it's called bizarre! Funny how old Bundy made a living for decades using his bizarre methods, but only a few weeks in, the Feds are way over their heads!
uanjgonz 4 minutes ago
Over reach of the government is why TRUMP is so popular! Washington DS is corrupt and we need change now!
BloodyMary just now
@Blaino15
That's how socialism works, they destroy your existence and your life in the blink of an eye
hriscampbaker 2 minutes ago
@rebbel
I challenge you to take on the government. You must live on the east coast.
Oneandundivided1788 1 minute ago
@Airbornallday @Oneandundivided1788 I read lots of articles from many different news sources. I read, analyze and make well informed decisions on my own. I generally dont accuse others of being "sheep" without a good reason.
Airbornallday 7 minutes ago
OWS was proven to spread diseases and the government did nothing but treat them using OUR tax dollars.
bugsy7562 7 minutes ago
Maybe Hilldebeest can capitalize on this and use insider trading info to make half a million dollars on cattle futures again.
beobachter 10 minutes ago
Scary words in your country. We're here from the government to help you.
This is only the Beginning!.. He is a Martyr now and his words will live on and he will continue to TEACH!..
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=18JKL7C-Gz4&feature=youtu.be
That is what he was killed for>>Teaching people their RIGHTS under our Constitution!
LOL we are reading the comment sections of news article to get our "facts"? jesus. don't you know the comments section is where all the nuts are. LOL
and the article was on Foxnews.com I figured that would at least have some credibility with you. :)
BLM land is available to everyone, the grass may be free but if you allow overgrazing by cows guess what the elk, deer, wild sheep and everything that depends on it starves. Which means that those folks who hunt the land are forced to subsidize beef. Sorry that is not right. If rancher wants to graze cattle, buy his own land or pay fair market to the public for access BLM land and obey the rules. The sanctuary they "occupied" is open to hunting, but not this year because they were occupying it.
Martyr? Isn't that the new word used to describe idiot, seems like it is popular with all terrorists both foreign and abroad.
sha44ss,
Your "martyr" was nothing more than an armed lawbreaking criminal, who through threats of violence, illegally occupied a federal facility.
You can cut and paste all the internet crap from anonymous bloggers and posters you like, and that doesn't change the fact that what the Bundys and Finicum did was illegal. Finicum is dead as a direct result of an illegal act. There is absolutely nothing he did to warrant the title of "martyr."
Stop getting your "news" from Youtube, any idiot can post something there and other idiots will take it as gospel truth.
At least we can be grateful that he didn't strap a suicide belt around his waist, and take a dozen other people with him in his "martyrdom."
We are a Constitutional REPUBLIC!
Kris Anne Hall CONSTITUTIONAL Lawyer/Educator/Pastors Wife/Radio Talk Show Host
Friend & Supporter of Bundys & Hammonds!
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=T424sWq1SkE&feature=share
Good news! They've started arresting the criminals that brandished weapons against the federal employees back in April of 2014, in the original Bundy "standoff". Failure to arrest these people was probably one of the reasons they felt safe in taking over the refuge in Oregon.
http://www.bostonherald.com/news/local_coverage/2016/03/new_hampshire_man_arrested_for_role_in_cliven_bundy_standoff
Wow, 14 arrested today for the 2014 incident. Included was the man you may remember from a widely circulated photo, dressed in body armor and aiming a rifle at federal employees from a highway overpass.
http://www.infowars.com/live-now-roundup-of-gun-activist-begins/
oh boy...conspiracy time? I guess we'll find out!
sha44ss,
You might as well be posting links to Grimm's fairy tales. It would be more relevant.
The link below is an article in the Atlantic. The cover photo shows Eric Parker pointing a rifle at federal employees from a concealed position on an overpass. For two years, I've been scratching my head wondering why he's not locked up. This is one of the "patriots" that was arrested yesterday.
http://www.theatlantic.com/politics/archive/2014/04/the-irony-of-cliven-bundys-unconstitutional-stand/360587/
PLEASE EVERYONE LISTEN TO AMMON BUNDY FROM JAIL!
Please listen to the WHOLE VIDEO's PART 1 and PART 2~!
http://www.kgw.com/news/local/watch-ammon-bundy-interview-from-jail/66722905
Also relevant...
“Serenity now! Serenity now!”
“What is that?”
“The doctor gave me a relaxation cassette. When my blood pressure gets too high, the man on the tape tells me to say ‘serenity now!'”
“Are you supposed to yell it?”
“The man on the tape wasn’t specific.”
- Seinfield
I have friends who know someone who knows them and their friends said their crazy.
Give it up 44 he is not telling the truth If it was so peaceful why did thay need guns and explosives
Just like everyone else in jail it's always not his fault, he is innocent, or the government was out to get him, or being framed by unnamed government agents. I suspect anyone who calls this criminal a hero has an odd moral compass that does not true north like the rest of us.
MK MK - Just like they were ambushed and the only weapons they had were chalk boards and a projector. Never mind they brought riffles and invited an outside militia group to their "educational presentation". What ever you do, ignore the kangaroo "citizen's court" they created to try people in absentia.
PRAISE GOD >>The Truth Will Prevail!
"Anytime the FBI is not completely honest in something like a shooting it harms the entire agency.'' Michael German, 16-year FBI veteran, now fellow at Brennan Center for Justice
http://www.oregonlive.com/oregon-standoff/2016/03/oregon_standoff_fbi_lie_uncove.html#incart_maj-story-1
It sounds like at least one FBI officer will be in hot water for failing to report that he or she fired their weapon. However, the video that was released completely supports the conclusion that shooting Finnicum was justified, and also demonstrates that the accounts provided by the people in the vehicle were severely flawed. I wouldn't say that they intentionally lied. Maybe they did, but their erroneous accounts of the events could also just be the result of their reaction to an extremely stressful situation. Its ironic that the one witness's account is completely undercut by the cell phone video that she herself recorded.
The most disturbing thing about this is that someone from the "elite" HRT team fired and MISSED... not once, but twice...
I don't know Ianimal. Without having all of the details, its difficult to know the conditions under which those two shots were fired. I think the disturbing and disappointing thing is that at least one FBI lied about it, presumably to distance the FBI from the events. However, I think its a very good sign that the independent investigation (conducted by a neighboring county that was not involved) is examining all of the evidence and revealing all of its findings.
Why would an agent in the field make a political decision to "distance the FBI from the events"? To me, that would be a decision made further up the chain of command.
The Hostage Rescue Team is supposedly the best of the best, basically the Fibbers SEAL Team Six, if you will. If they take a shot, it's supposed to kill someone.
You're right Sharon the truth has prevailed and ironically the latest evidence that the kill was justified came from the passengers cell phone.
https://www.rawstory.com/2016/03/watch-passenger-video-shows-lavoy-finicums-last-moments-and-demolishes-bundy-conspiracies/
But of course we all know that you conspiracy peeps never accept the truth so carry on with your 3%ers and your irrational thoughts. There probably is a better way to enjoy retirement but to each his own.
ianimal, I see your point, but I think that's dangerous speculation at this point. It could be for, for arguments sake, that the fbi agents had orders to stay out of the fracas, and agent didn't want to reprimanded for not following orders. But of course, that's just speculation too.
What is speculation? That they fired shots, that they missed or that they aren't supposed to miss? I think all three are fairly well-settled factually.
I was referring to:
"To me, that would be a decision made further up the chain of command."
Oh... no, that's not what I was implying. My implication was that political motivation was likely NOT the rationale for the lies told by the agents. I definitely wasn't implying that their decision to lie was made for them by their superiors.
methinks someone was trying to distance their keyster from the affair. Especially since they missed. One thing is certain, you'll never really know. Maybe they just wanted to clean their guns so the squeezed off a couple of misses during the fracas. Maybe they just wanted a little practice. Maybe they misfired. Maybe they took careful aim and missed.
Elite or not, let's face it, these were not the sharpest knives in the drawer. I mean, shoot, lie and not know the bullets would turn you in? Or maybe you not only missed but figured you missed so bad they would never find the bullet.
Or maybe these bullets did indeed kill Finicum, passed through his body, bounced off a tree, then turned, went through the open windows of the truck on both sides turned upward only to loose momentum and fall to earth in the roof of the truck. We've heard a story like that before.
What's sad is that this guy seems to have raised a lot of troubled kids and while got money for it, he still did it and can't find any bad in how he did it. Nice ranch life for troubled kids. Too bad that's over.
Wife got upset when they took the kids. Like, "excuse me, what part of crazy dad with a gun under a tarp on a lawn chair holding a building hostage crazy did you not get?" Even Catholics have a red line on that kind of crazy (don't yell at my anti-Catholicism, I'm just kidding, I love Catholics, some of my best friends.....)
well 44 I guess the myth of them being unarmed is gone in the video from in side truck Ammon Bundy can be heard saying where's the guns https://youtu.be/lQrDCu-px-M?t=3m16s
"You're gonna have to shoot me. You're gonna have to shoot me." Over and over. Typical nut job death by Cop suicide. Nothing else. But at least he got what he wants and will be remembered as a fake patriot by people like sha44ss.
That YouTube video from the cell phone showed everyone what a death wish nut he was. Thanks for posting it
Oldred, You are correct, except for one detail. That was Ryan Bundy asking where the guns were, not Ammon. Ammon was in the other truck. The trunk in which everyone complied with law enforcement and were arrested without incident.
the keyboard playtriots are still crying about some jackass getting himself shot? on an east coast messageboard no less? lmao!
Finicum was shot in the back- all three wounds. You would have thought trained HRT people would have at least waited for him to be HOLDING his weapon, or raising to to fire.
If this was an armed black man on the street who was resisting arrest, shot in the back 3 times, all you libs would be screaming "excessive use of force" and cities would be BURNING... just like Ferguson (which we all found out... "hands up don't shoot" was a LIE)
Autopsy report:
http://www.scribd.com/doc/303826626/Finicum-Autopsy-Report
"the keyboard playtriots are still crying about some jackass getting himself shot? on an east coast messageboard no less? lmao!"
Were you saying the same thing for Michael Brown?
Oh you just like this guy because he had a gun.
If I remember, Michael Brown was unarmed.....
If I remember, most of HL, myself included, agreed with the verdict to exonerate Wilson.
So yes oh forgetful one.
I think JR is implying NOT to exonerate the FBI at the moment...
Like you said though, "most" of HL thought the way you did at the time. Not all. I saw no reason why he shouldn't have been brought for trial. If it were as cut an dry as you had claimed at the time there would be no difference in outcome, but instead you just pushed for dismissal and the bypassing of due process because you *thought* you knew what happened even though you weren't there.
Same in this case. Finicum's hands came down right around the time the shots were fired. Too quick on the pistol or not? Personally, based on the publicly distributed video I think it's pretty cut and dry he was a threat and the reaction was appropriate, but that doesn't mean no judicial review mr armchair quarterback...
What bypass? A grand jury acquittal?
Where does your due procees stop? Supreme Court? When you get what you want?
"If I remember, Michael Brown was unarmed....."
Not for lack of trying (he tried to take the officer's sidearm = death by cop. And by YOUR standards you have discussed here, totally justified.)
Once again you are totally befuddled by the facts. So prove it, whatever you are trying to say.
You do forget, apparently. Read the original thread in chronological order if you can't understand the comment.
http://www.reuters.com/article/us-nevada-bundy-decision-idUSKCN0WJ2R3
Cliven Bundy's pretrial release was, of course, denied. He'll be lucky to ever see the light of day again.
Breaking News: Trump calls out BLM for Stealing Rancher's Land
http://www.thecommonsenseshow.com/2016/03/10/19189/
Clinton Is Selling Uranium From Bundy and Hammond Ranches to Russians to Fund Presidential Campaign:
http://www.thecommonsenseshow.com/2016/01/05/clinton-is-selling-uranium-from-bundy-and-hammond-ranches-to-russians-to-fund-presidential-campaign/
Bean The NY Times article dated April 23, 2015 regarding Clinton Foundation Amid Russian Uranium deal: by Joe Becker and Mike McIntire.
http://www.nytimes.com/2015/04/24/us/cash-flowed-to-clinton-foundation-as-russians-pressed-for-control-of-uranium-company.html?_r=0
Old news and no quid pro quo. No smoking gun. Cinton could't even pull the necessary strings even if Bill told her too. The money flowed to the Bill Clinton foundation, not to Bill and certainly not to Hillary.
Not even remotely associated with BLM or this thread
Red herring.
" Certainly not to Hillary " ... If anyone did point the finger at her they would end up dead. How far are you gonna back the frickin criminal that Hillary is, Strangerdummy ? My guess is right up until the facts make their way out .... Then you will disappear just like before. How about her getting of the plane in Bosnia and coming under fire ?
Not a Red Herring.
Sounds more like you are experiencing cognitive dissidence. Good luck with that.
Bean,
Really??? "The Common Sense Show, dedicated to freeing one enslaved mind at a time."
Ah yes, more reputable journalism.
God bless the internet. If it's on the internet, it HAS to be true.
""WHEN I AM ELECTED PRESIDENT, I WILL BRING THE EXECUTIVE BRANCH BACK INSIDE THE CONSTITUTION AND WILL WORK WITH CONGRESS TO PUT AMERICA FIRST!!
I will lead the effort to gain meaningful tax reform, trade reform and education reform. I will lead the effort to protect your right to worship as you see fit and your right to protect your family and property with the right to keep and bear arms. Together, we will make America great again!
http://dennismichaellynch.com/must-see-donald-trumps-position-on-the-blm/
Trump WILL Pardon the Bundys and the Hammonds like Obama should have done!
http://thefederalist.com/2016/01/06/how-obama-can-solve-the-oregon-mess-with-his-pen-and-phone/
Bean - How much of the details of those items did you read? It's a blogger claiming his mention of Trump has broken some story open. His mention is actually a link to some other blogger's link. That link goes to "InfoWars" which reads some statement quoted from a newspaper. It's like your hairdresser's cousin's wife's best friend's roommate from college. The quote from Trump doesn't even mention Bundy, and it doesn't accuse anyone of stealing anything. Trump talked about "access to public land" which says the opposite - he believes it's government land. Trump's comments were about how it's affecting people's ability to earn a living. The blogger even commented how disappointed he was Trump *didn't* go further and talk about land rights and mention Bundy by name. The "Breaking News" part is manufactured news and the "BLM Stealing" is a headline to draw in sheep.
The other headline is the same - it connects "Clinton" with uranium "From Bundy and Hammond" and "Campaign". As SD said, it's the wrong Clinton to begin with, the funds aren't from the sale of uranium but a donation apart from the deal, then the uranium is from other places, not those ranches, and the money as SD said isn't going into the campaign. It's another bait and switch headline aimed at not reading the stories.
The NYT headline you got correct. That's about Bill Clinton and what appears to be a Russian donation to their foundation in order to help close the uranium deal. That's relevant to the campaign thread instead of here.
"It's like your hairdresser's cousin's wife's best friend's roommate from college."
And articles in the MSM are sourced by the author who was "there" and has intimate knowledge of the situation? Hardly, it's just that MSM has (had!) a reputation for getting it right while bloggers don't. Both use the same link to the college roommate, but you just happen to trust one over the other.
""BLM Stealing" is a headline to draw in sheep."
et tu Brutus? Or should I say "Sheepus" lol. I guess you think there's never been a manipulative headline in the MSM? Uh huh, right.
BTW, I agree that the sources you are referring to aren't what one would call stellar, but your logic in trashing one and not the other is a bit sheep-inspired itself.
And I say this while agreeing with your analysis. Just disagree with your closed-minded disdain.
yankeefan lmbo and thank you GC - another fine piece of debunking - glad we can count on you here...........that gives a little hope
"Trump WILL Pardon the Bundys and the Hammonds like Obama should have done!"
Sharon where did you hear that or are you just giving you bias opinion on the matter? of course you are giving you opinion as none of your links ever contain facts. Just like this link, it is an opinion piece, not fact. So to say Trump will pardon them is ludicrous. Pardon an armed group that overtook a gov't building? Yea not bloody likely.
Cognitive dissonance? Try reading the facts. And to all you truth-telling name callers, personal attack low blows do not add credibility to your very ugly truth. Truth should be a beacon on the hill, truth should not be sewage in a gutter of gossip.
Yes, it was the NYT basically quoting a tell-all expose with numerous corrections added already. Not their finest day but yes Sha44ss, it did catch my eye.
The guy claimed as the major donator sold the company three years before the sale.
The government people making the decision included 8, count em, 8 other departments with equal decision-makers at Clinton's level in the administration.
There is also a multitude of non voting members and observers to the process none of whom raised the red flag on this red herring.
Clinton's crime seems to be agreeing with 8+ other government organizations.
"Furthermore, the official who was the State Department's representative on CFIUS at the time, Jose Hernandez, told Time magazine that Clinton did not participate in the evaluation of this deal: "Secretary Clinton never intervened with me on any CFIUS matter," he said."
Yes the deal includes a good portion of U.S. uranium output. But the Russian's could have severed that part of the deal since their production-level interest was in the Asian assets held by the company.
Did Bill Clinton act like he could have helped the Russians in the deal. Might have winked and nodded in that direction, no one will know. They would have been fools to believe him that Hillary could con 8 voting and numerous non voting agencies into selling American security to line her pocket and not theirs. Plus the major donor had been giving for years and sold his stake in the company THREE YEARS before the sale to the Russians. Probably saw a company going down the tubes.
The most important part: no quid pro quo, no smoking gun.
http://www.businessinsider.com/everything-we-know-about-the-hillary-clinton-russia-uranium-scandal-2015-4
"And to all you truth-telling name callers, personal attack low blows do not add credibility to your very ugly truth. Truth should be a beacon on the hill, truth should not be sewage in a gutter of gossip."
Sounds great. Not stooping would be a great start.
But if history is any indicator, and if what passes for "news" in our society is considered normal, stooping is the only thing that matters when communicating in our society. So while it sounds great in theory, it's much harder in practice. Let's see how it goes....
sha44ss,
I'm assuming that the statement you quoted is from Trump: ""WHEN I AM ELECTED PRESIDENT, I WILL BRING THE EXECUTIVE BRANCH BACK INSIDE THE CONSTITUTION AND WILL WORK WITH CONGRESS TO PUT AMERICA FIRST!!
I will lead the effort to gain meaningful tax reform, trade reform and education reform. I will lead the effort to protect your right to worship as you see fit and your right to protect your family and property with the right to keep and bear arms. Together, we will make America great again!"
First of all, as I've asked over and over, where are any of Trump's concrete plans on how he is going to accomplish "meaningful tax reform, trade reform and education reform?" Just saying it should be done without telling us HOW you're going to do it is useless. He most likely hasn't got a plan, and is just telling his acolytes what they want to hear.
As far as protecting my right to worship as I see fit...I wasn't aware that anyone in America has been prevented from worshiping as they see fit. Don't confuse freedom to practice your religion (which has not been infringed upon) from my freedom to not have YOUR religious beliefs forced down my throat. (Kim Davis was wrong wrong wrong -- no one stopped her from practicing her religion, but she had NO RIGHT to impose her religion on others.) Right now, the only threat to freedom of religion would be from haters like Trump who want to ban members of one religion from entering the country.
Open your eyes, unless you're English-speaking and a Christian and agree with Trump's brand of rhetoric, you're a second class human in Trump's world and only worthy of baring the brunt of his followers' violence.
I think I have covered, from my vantage point, many of Trump's positions on the other thread.
His tax plan is an economic disaster costing billions in revenue, netting the Trump family a minimum of $2.5B in inheritance savings, and dependent on trickle down to save the country from recession, deficit and greater debt. Most economists rate this poorly.
His mandatory deportations will cost over $600B and will result in widespread job vacancies that can not be backfilled with the remaining labor force. End result will be companies going out of business, rising consumer prices, and crops rotting on the vine.
Gosh only knows the monetary and human costs of his wars with boots on the ground or the cultural effect of his plan to steal Syrian and Iraqi oil resources as reparation for the evil deeds, not of the Syrian or Iraqi peoples, but of ISIS.
We don't know the economic effects of banning all Muslims from entering the U.S. for either business or pleasure. Can't imagine a religious ban against 1.8B people will result in an economic boom.
On Education he has not said much. He will end Common Core, he will end fraud and waste. He will cut Education funding "way, way, way down" without cutting services. He has no Education positions or plans on his website. Trump alluded to Ben Carson being paid off for support with an Education job, a job for which he has absolutely zero experience beyond going to school and being a DR.
Of course, like education Trump has no positions on many important topics to non-Trump supporters and apparently not important at all to Trump supporters who continue to support the man sans plans in many, many, areas.
Trade reform is more complex but basically he is a free trader that is against free trade. It's a messy policy plan fraught with gaps and unanticipated consequences. Will cover at some point on the Trump thread but the bottom line will be increased consumer prices for Americans in return for lower wage jobs and corporate business failures.
Gadfly, what did you think I meant? I just meant that this is what happens to all threads. There's always tangents.
Hey, I noted the other thread, indicated that any new research, if that's what I call it, would be place there, whattya want from life, I mean HackettstownLife?
continued from above:
What is needed in Washington is a president who will rein in the executive branch and work with Congress to make sure the legislative branch does its job. What is needed in Washington is a president who has the will, strength and courage to lead. What is needed in Washington is a president who is not beholden to special interests and who is only interested in putting America and Americans first.
When I am elected president, I will bring the executive branch back inside the Constitution and will work with Congress to put America first. I will lead the effort to gain meaningful tax reform, trade reform and education reform. I will lead the effort to protect your right to worship as you see fit and your right to protect your family and property with the right to keep and bear arms. Together, we will make America great again.
"WHEN I AM ELECTED PRESIDENT, I WILL BRING THE EXECUTIVE BRANCH BACK INSIDE THE CONSTITUTION AND WILL WORK WITH CONGRESS TO PUT AMERICA FIRST!!"
What is happening our West effects us ALL! It is the beginning of the End of AMERICA> OUR CORRUPT POLITICIANS are selling U.S. > ALL OUT!
DONALD TRUMP IS AMERICA'S LAST CHANCE TO TAKE BACK OUR COUNTRY FROM THE MULTI-NATIONALS THAT WANT OPEN BORDERS TO REPLACE THE AMERICAN PEOPLE WITH ***NEW VOTERS!! WAKE UP AMERICANS!
And if I'm a Racist and a Bigot Jerry G for wanting to Save our Country SO BE IT!
Gadfly >Because I posted this article on TRUMPS Position on the Bureau of Land Managements Unlawful Overreach
http://dennismichaellynch.com/must-see-donald-trumps-position-on-the-blm/
But noone **Reads or COMPREHENDS the Magnitude of OUR 'NATIONS' IMMINENT FALL...due to Obama and his minions LAWLESS & ILLEGAL use of Executive power OUTSIDE of our Constitution!
I'll post the WHOLE article from NEWSMAX for you to READ~!
Would LaVoy Finicum still be alive if Trump had been President?
A letter Donald Trump wrote to the Reno Gazette in January has recently come to light, in which he outlined his views on the Bureau of Land Management. This letter is a MUST-READ!
Questions worth considering: Based on his views expressed in this letter, if Donald Trump had been President, would the Bundy Ranch standoff have ever occurred? Would the Hammond family or the Bundy family have ever been imprisoned? Would LaVoy Finicum have been killed?
From the RENO GAZETTE-JOURNAL | by Donald J. Trump | 12:31 p.m. PST January 28, 2016
The United States of America is a land of laws, and Americans value the rule of law above all. Why, then, has our Congress allowed the president and the executive branch to take on near-dictatorial power? How is it that we have a president who will not enforce some laws and who encourages faceless, nameless bureaucrats to manage public lands as if the millions of acres were owned by agencies such as the Bureau of Land Management and the Department of Energy? In Nevada, the lack of enforcement of immigration laws and the draconian rule of the BLM are damaging the economy, lowering the standard of living and inhibiting natural economic growth. The only way to change these circumstances is to bring to Washington a president who will rein in the federal government and get Congress to do its job. It’s not that we don’t have talented people in D.C. It’s that we have no leadership there.
The BLM controls over 85 percent of the land in Nevada. In the rural areas, those who for decades have had access to public lands for ranching, mining, logging and energy development are forced to deal with arbitrary and capricious rules that are influenced by special interests that profit from the D.C. rule-making and who fill the campaign coffers of Washington politicians. Far removed from the beautiful wide open spaces of Nevada, bureaucrats bend to the influence that is closest to them. Honest, hardworking citizens who seek freedom and economic independence must beg for deference from a federal government that is more intent on power and control than it is in serving the citizens of the nation. In and around Clark County, the situation is even worse.
Because the BLM is so reluctant to release land to local disposition in Nevada, the cost of land has skyrocketed and the cost of living has become an impediment to growth. Where are the city and county to get the land for schools, roads, parks and other public use areas if they have to beg Washington for the land and then pay a premium price for it? How are people who see a future in Nevada to find housing and employment if the federal government is inhibiting economic development? How are businesses to find the employees to fill the jobs that could be created if there were better leadership in Washington? Unfortunately, many of the jobs are filled by those who came to this country illegally.
Illegal immigration costs the people of Nevada over $1.2 billion a year. That is nearly $6,000 for every man, woman and child in the state. Those are tax dollars that could go to build those schools, roads, sewers, water treatment plants and all the other services needed for a growing economy. Illegal immigrants absorb tax dollars from public schools, public health and public safety. Illegal immigration suppresses wages and undermines the ability of workers to organize and seek better working conditions. Illegal immigration is an affront to the very rule of law valued by all Americans and most assuredly by all Nevadans.
(Continued next post)
What is needed in Washington is a president who will rein in the executive branch and work with Congress to make sure the legislative branch does its job. What is needed in Washington is a president who has the will, strength and courage to lead. What is needed in Washington is a president who is not beholden to special interests and who is only interested in putting America and Americans first.
When I am elected president, I will bring the executive branch back inside the Constitution and will work with Congress to put America first. I will lead the effort to gain meaningful tax reform, trade reform and education reform. I will lead the effort to protect your right to worship as you see fit and your right to protect your family and property with the right to keep and bear arms. Together, we will make America great again.
"WHEN I AM ELECTED PRESIDENT, I WILL BRING THE EXECUTIVE BRANCH BACK INSIDE THE CONSTITUTION AND WILL WORK WITH CONGRESS TO PUT AMERICA FIRST!!"
What is happening out West effects us ALL! It is the beginning of the End of AMERICA> OUR CORRUPT POLITICIANS are selling U.S. > ALL OUT!
DONALD TRUMP IS AMERICA'S LAST CHANCE TO TAKE BACK OUR COUNTRY FROM THE MULTI-NATIONALS THAT WANT OPEN BORDERS TO REPLACE THE AMERICAN PEOPLE WITH ***NEW VOTERS!! WAKE UP AMERICANS!
Gadfly --- poor sha44ss is in such a FRENZY over trump .......... any wonder she totally missed the Panther Valley crime scene post?
LOL
sha44ss:
I went back and read my last post trying to see where I called you a racist and/or a bigot. I did not. However, if you think you are, well then, that certainly says something.
"DONALD TRUMP IS AMERICA'S LAST CHANCE TO TAKE BACK OUR COUNTRY FROM THE MULTI-NATIONALS THAT WANT OPEN BORDERS TO REPLACE THE AMERICAN PEOPLE WITH ***NEW VOTERS!! WAKE UP AMERICANS!"
Last time I looked only American citizens were permitted to vote. What the heck are you rambling about now?????
I'm with Gadfly...you're delusional. You need help.
Shaking my head and trying ever so hard to sit on my hands..................perhaps he/she will qualify for that treatment program they want to open in Allamuchy --oops forgot to sit on my hands
You tell me how they are NOT voting! This is Obamas's America now...your heads are in the sand!..
How the Somalis gave Rubio Minnesota!
http://national.suntimes.com/national-world-news/7/72/2685959/ann-coulter-somalis-carried-little-rubio-minnesota-win/
http://www.wnd.com/2016/03/minneapolis-caucus-all-somalian-little-american/
Dear God, what don't you get sha??
If they're Somali, they can't vote. If they are naturalized or native-born US citizens, they can vote.
What's next? "The Irish-Catholics gave JFK the presidency?" or "The Mormons gave Romney the nomination?" How about "Illegal Mexican immigrants are rapists?"
American citizens of any background can vote. Stop criticizing people because of their ancestry. Now you're just proving what you yourself admitted.
BIG TIME NEWS!
The two-month standoff between Oregon militia members and police came to a violent end in January, with the shooting of militia leader Robert “LaVoy” Finicum by Oregon state troopers.
But now the Washington Post reports “new details have emerged” about the controversial conduct of FBI Hostage Rescue Team snipers.
The Post article portrays the current state of the investigation as considerably messier than readers casually following the story might have suspected.
The FBI team has been accused of firing at Finicum’s truck, failing to report their shots as required, and actually taking steps to cover their tracks by collecting their spent shell casings:
http://www.breitbart.com/big-government/2016/03/17/fbi-sniper-actions-in-oregon-standoff-questioned/
Well, if Ann Coulter says it or if it's on Breitbart.com it must be true , LOL
I submit that sha44ss is either a total conspiracy theory wingnut
OR
The best internet troll ever?
I'm starting to think it's #2
All 6 acquitted of all charges. Jury nullification, baby!
http://www.oregonlive.com/oregon-standoff/2016/10/oregon_standoff_verdicts_annou.html
Nice how the marshals roughed up their lawyer afterwards (against the instructions of the judge who told them to back off).
You'd think the feds would learn not to mess with crazy dudes out west... A jury of their peers is in fact a jury of their peers.
brendan "Nice how the marshals roughed up their lawyer afterwards (against the instructions of the judge who told them to back off)."
Just letting everyone know "who's boss", even though they LOST.
I'm telling you, unless this country and it's govt get turned around SOON, alot more of this will be happening. People can yell "tin foil hat" all they want, but we're creeping into tyrannical territory.
Currently, the BLM is proposing to destroy 44,000 wild horses in holding. The senseless, taxpayer-funded roundups are only conducted to clear the land for welfare ranchers (livestock owners that don't want to pay to feed their own animaIs, so instead waste millions of tax dollars capturing, killing and holding mustangs prisoner). I think it is time for everyone to step back and look at the real cause of the issue and how to prevent this in the future. Wild horses are not the problem. Human greed and its abuse of the natural world is responsible for this. Nature has an incredible way of balancing everything. Humans are interfering with this by killing off natural predators, rounding up thousands of horses and flooding the range with invasive species (cattle and sheep). Taxpayers do not even benefit from the cattle being on our land- just a few rich ranchers that have the funds to pressure the government to suit their own interests.
Natari Staggering to see the difference in support/treatment between Bundy and those protesting the Dakota pipeline.
Interesting jury nullification. What message do you think they were sending?
Bonv- I actually agree with you on that one. Thanks to the JOKE of these 2 presidential candidates, that story is getting zero coverage, and it's damn shame.
Agreed JR - pretty outrageous/disgusting situation and I'm sure the presidential race can survive with only 23 hours of daily coverage.
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