$1.9 Million over paid by GMR to Hackettstown BOE
According to the March 13,2017 G.M.R. Board meeting, over the past four years G.M.R. has over paid the Hackettstown B.O.E. $1.9 Million dollars. No details of how/when or why this major financial mistake were given. Their solution (with some Hackettstown B.O.E. in attendance) was to have Hackettstown pay back this balance in equal payments over 8 years. Effectively giving Hackettstown a 12 year interest free loan.Some of the questions that come to mind is how could two financial (both,G.M.R. and Hackettstown) professionals make such an huge financial mistake? What did Mr. Mango (Superintendent of both school districts) know and when did he know it? Because of this inherent conflict of interest did he recuse himself from all deliberations in this matter? How was this mistake found out about? How much is G.M.R. over budgeted and why are Independence residents presently in line for a tax increase? When Mr.Mango met with Liberty and Independence Township officials,why did he tell them that the budget would be flat(no increase)? How does a G.M.R. taxpayer get the money he overpaid back if he leaves the district? Why is G.M.R. waiting for 8 years to receive this over payment with no interest and not charging interest for the 4 years prior? Why is G.M.R. not requesting The full amount all at once and refunding this back to the taxpayer? These are just some of the questions that come to mind. The next G.M.R. B.O.E. meeting is Tuesday 3/28/17 7:00 P.M. at the middle school.
Hammer What's gmr? Great meadows regional school district? Probably for sending 07838 students to hackettstown schools? Are they a sending district ?
skippy 
Metsman 
lorie Independence taxpayers will also have to absorb a 4.8% increase in their school taxes. IMO, our school board doesn't even try to keep out taxes from spiraling out of control.
Indy2 Mango has nothing to do with this issue, believe it or not.
To make a long story short... the Business Administrators in both districts are responsible for creating the tuition schedules and checking that the numbers are right. Clearly one or both of them missed something or didn't check.
Sure, GMMS overpaid, but Hackettstown will be paying it back. The brokered deal, while not ideal for MC Hammer up there, allows both districts to right the situation without destroying either budget.
There was a similar situation recently with Newton and their sending districts and Newton upping the tuition considerably. Be happy you're not being handled like that!
btownguy Don't bother Hammer, too many total compensation excessively compensated public workers on this forum.
iJay Thanks for the heads up IJAY. The GMR board was trying to keep this under wraps for obvious reasons. This was no honest mistake. GMR was using this as a slush fund to prevent from cutting the budget and to justify their increasing the 2% cap every year.
So this is what Mango's district goals were all about, he had to milk GM $$ and get the money. He is really dedicated to these students, right? Should have hired Sarcone or Pittenger... At least they cared about the district. We will never get rid of this little man.
dsl1121 Is there a link to the minutes? I went to GMR website and the minutes are not up to date for March.
I can't believe this happened. It went on for 4 years and neither BA caught it? I hope action is taken against those responsible. This is a lot of money and Hackettstown residents are going to suffer the payback.
Hopeful 
Greg GIjay, as an excessively compensated public worker I say thank you!!!! Keep paying those taxes.. I gots da bills to pay!!!!!!! This also sounds like incompetence at its finest!!!!!
Mr. Tone Oh iJay, figured we'd see you add nothing to this thread.
Hammer, cite your source for your tinfoil hat theory. You say "trying to keep it under wraps", but perhaps they were investigating, analyzing the situation and obtaining facts? You know, those things your "slush fund" theory lacks?
dsl1121, acquaint yourself with a budgeting process. Mango is not the one that determines tuition between districts. That's on the BAs, the financial people of a district.
Btownguy,Oh how deliberately naive we can be when one wants to deny the facts. Mango is integrally involved in the budget process as any Superintendent would be. How convenient for the taxpayers of Hackettstown to be subsidized by the GMR taxpayers to the tune of $1.9 million dollars. By doing so it makes Mango look like a a fiscal genius and on the flip side GMR tax payers are unaware of this charade because they are just getting hit with the normal(?) 2% increases. It is impossible for two professional B.A. to not account for $1.9 .million dollars. This was not a case of incompetence it is a case of collusion!
Hammer, cite your source. All you've demonstrated is a clear lack of knowledge regarding individual roles in the budget process. You've put the target in Mango and ignored the other players.
Why are you not talking about the GMMS BOE's Budget committee which had to approve the budget?
Why are you not talking about the GMMS BOE which also had to approve the budget?
Why are you not talking about the GMMS BA that clearly said "this calculation made sense" when we now know it to be erroneous?
Why are you not talking about the Htown BOE's Budget committee which had to approve the budget?
Why are you not talking about the Htown BOE which also had to approve the budget?
Why are you not talking about the Htown BA that clearly said "this calculation made sense" when we now know it to be erroneous?
Why are you not talking about the budget which was approved by other education officials beyond our districts?
While Mango is involved in the process, he is not sitting there with a calculator double checking the math of the BA. Sure, you can blame him, but you're only using him as a scapegoat and ignoring the ones that really should be at fault.
But then again, that requires some thought...
Ok, who is the bottom line responsible? Forgive my ignorance, whose signature is on the budget?
btownguy, sorry but I don't see it any other way. Excessive property taxes in NJ has a cause, and your union is a contributor to the problem. Sorry, but think about it -- your union is a big part of the problem.
Btownguy, you are talking in circles. When you can respond in a more coherent manor I will respond to your comments if at all.
iJay, making more assumptions I see. I'm just an individual that's actually done my homework and knows how the process works, but go ahead and assume - we all know what happens when you assume. There's no reason to bring the teachers or teachers union into this because they have ZERO control over the budget. I get that you hate educators, but now you're just stretching to try and be a hater.
Hammer, I've clearly laid out plenty of information regarding the budget process and the many elected people that contribute to and oversee the process. I'm sorry if you can't wrap your brain around this simple idea. But I get it, clearly Mango said something at some point that upset you and now you're just being angry person by blaming the Superintendent and ignoring the many other people in the process that serve as checks and balances.
I've discussed part of the budget process and those that would approve the budget. You've brought no evidence forth. If someone's talking in circle it sure isn't me! But go ahead and use that logic to continue to not respond to any conversation on the topix if it makes you feel better.
The nexus of deceit lies with the two B.A.'s and Mango. It could very well include high level members of both boards but any investigation would start with those three.
I dislike those who are excessively compensated when it affects my pockets via forced non-optional tax levies, who wouldn't (unless you or a loved one are part of this "system").
Fyi-every budget gets sent to the county for approval before it is put in place.
Justsayin2 Why don't all you Einstein's go to the board meetings and get your answers instead of hiding behind computer screens and speculating on things you know nothing about. Why don't run for board positions if this is such a crisis for you ? Mistakes happen and it is being corrected.
Hammer, what proof do you have of willful deceit? You're continually talking in circles about deception and this back door dealing and yet you have no proof. Or is the County in on this as well? Does Mango have the County in his pocket along with both BAs and all members of both BOEs?! That's incredible reach for a single Superintendent
See? I responded even if you do talk in circles.
iJay, there's no excessive compensation for educators and, more importantly, that comment has nothing to do with the thread, the topic at hand or previous statements. I get that you have you "I hate teachers" sound bytes, but at least use them in topic appropriate threads.
If I criticize overcompensation of teachers then I am a teacher-hater. No sir! If the overcompensation did not hit my pocket it would n to be of my concern, way below my daily radar.
If you are saying that I (or others) that are critical of public sector total compensation will be "labeled" as haters of XYZ then you have a logic problem. You do not impress me with your two dimensional argument. Join me in three dimensions when you are ready.
When it's the budget, they can go even further EMCSquared - even people like iJay who aren't allowed to vote in areas they're not local to can participate in the budget workshops. Don't need to be elected yet you can actually be part of creating that budget.
This is a targeted witch hunt first, looking for a reason. FUD about who controls that or caused it. It may be a sum of money that seems high over four years worth, and no one wants to see that unaccounted for. But when you total school budget is $30,000,000 then $475,000 is a blip sized single line item type amount.
The simple explanation is there were fewer students coming from the sending district than expected. That's what budgets are, estimates which are trued up later. Four years is admittedly longer than a reconciliation should have taken. But go to the right to ask the questions. How you can think Mango would either be behind sending fewer students or be some kind of hero even if he could have done it is silly. Just from the original post, would you have done it knowing someone would ridicule you to that extent? Obviously not.
GC iJay, you're the one living in a two dimensional world, sir. My argument is based on your posting history which is full of comments that deride teachers and their worth. It's not just limited to this thread, as you're tying to imply. You are fully aware of the past comments you've made, but yet you again make assumptions (further proving what happens when you assume) based on a single comment.
So, please, join me in the fourth dimension where time is relevant and we actually think through our posts.
GC, please stop using intelligence and logic and thought. iJay and Hammer don't believe in such things and it may scare them.
;)
iJay - You've said so many things in the past about this being your personal dumping ground, and "unions and zionists are behind all the worlds troubles", and teachers can't make it in the real world, and on and on. In addition to the other things, you're wrong about the number of public workers on the forum too. And remind us which one of these local BOE's is yours that you complain about getting hit in your personal wallet?
A 1.9 million dollar mistake is inexcusable. HE SHOULD FIRED!!!!!!
The idiot business administrator at GMRSD is Tim Havlusch
His email is thavlusch@GMRSD.com.
Please email him with your feelings and ask for an explanation as I have.
I would also include emails or letters to Ed O'Melia - President and Joe Mailloux Vice President on how this happened, how much oversight the board has on treasury and what actions will be taken to ensure it never happens again.
It is time to vote these incompetent politicians off the board.
I stand by my belief that most public employees are overcompensated with the overcompensation generally surrounding retirement benefits, medical benefits (being addressed but work still needed), and medical benefits during retirement.
I stand by the statement immediately above and believe it is a matter of fact (or as close to a fact as any argument can be). Don't believe I am the rogue basher, I am sure there are many others on this forum that agree with me.
And back to this direct topic, I don't understand how credits/adjustments over 2 years old can exist; this would be 1 year (average up) for the school year and 1 year to adjust with projections/budget?
Approximately 10 years ago under another board the exact same thing occured at GMR. Then councilman John Cummins also called it a "Slush Fund" except the dollar amount was much smaller ($250K). The scheme has just been repeated on a grander scale.
How does an autonomous board such as a BOE not have accounting oversight ergo how does something as large as a school budget get out with a mathematical error that's not caught by an accountant? That's why organizations have accountants - transference of risk - even if someone made an error such as that if the accounting firm certified it they are responsible through errors and omissions insurance.
If H overcharged Ind. 1.9 mil in 4 years then H should be able to pay it back in 2 years.
H has way more taxpayers than li' ole' Ind.
I believe that the 1.9 million should be paid back with a bond from Hackettstown, so Independence residents finally get a break!
Lucy Lucy - bonds are in the 10 year type range, absolutely 5 years at a minimum. No reason to do that when at least if they wanted the cash back, that it could be paid back the same time it was accumulated - 4 years. Even if not there's no way Htown needs to bond an amount they have in cash. Not needed.
beagiver - If they want it back in two years, fair enough. That's between you and your board. But as far as "over charging" that's FUD. All the parties, all the boards, all the accountants, all the residents at their meetings agreed to the $. It's just after that was done the actual vs budget shows there's more to the GMR side. The Invoice amount was agreed to by all parties. When you find out the Bill is actually less than expected, it's a simple AP matter of having a credit with the Vendor. What you do from there, get a refund, apply it to future Invoices, etc. is all up to you. But "overcharge" is completely inaccurate.
Skippy,
If you knew the ways that they manipulate the budget to increase the bottom line, you would be amazed. They send the budget to the county, where it is rubber stamped as long as it seems reasonable. The audit at the end of the year only looks to see if the numbers in and out add up and somewhat if the amounts in the budget are used in their category or transferred somewhere else. Years ago, GMRSD BOE would have workshop meetings on the budget which the public could attend and all board members could have input. It doesn't work like that anymore. Inflating the amount for tuition has happened before. A number of years ago they routinely artificially increased the amount of students being sent to the high school in the budget by 20 to 30 students. This would increase the budget by 200,000 or more and in a few years they would get it back. Meanwhile the budget could be increased and higher taxes could be justified. Since they eliminated the public's right to vote on the budget there has been very little oversight on what they are doing. Some of the questions for the board might be: why is Independence facing a 4.8% increase when we have overpaid by 1.9 million dollars? Why is the special education budget increasing by 457,000 when the amount of special education students is not increasing? Why is there an increase in taxes of 438,079 when the tuition is decreasing by 517,168?
People need to attend the meeting on March 28th at the middle school.
If you want to see the budget it is on the website.
www.gmrsd.com
Indy2 - And the reason why you and Brother Dog haven't been elected to the BOE is what? If you have all the answers, why can't you get elected? Get beyond attending meetings and control what you think is best. Or maybe reality is a bit different.
GC
I guess I should have said : if h owes ind. 1.9 mil then they should transfer the $ back to lil' ind in 2 years?
would that be acceptable?
I would tend to agree with the comments from GC if the overage was minor. However, $1.9m, even when spread over four years is not a minor amount. Some posters have suggested the situation resulted from deliberate collusion by the involved Parties. Others have stated that there were multiple individuals/ groups that reviewed and approved the budgets thereby questioning collusion by the Parties. In my view, what appears to have occurred is that a select core group colluded to amass overages, for whatever reason, during the budgets years. The remaining members involved simply went along with the budget amounts without checking or questioning the figures quite possibly because they trusted the core group’s integrity. Ongoing, due to the current serious overage there should be enhanced oversight of budgets. Audits should be performed more frequently to catch problems while they are minor thereby mitigating large errors from occurring similar the situation we are now facing.
BC Almost 2 decades ago I worked for a school- I won't say where- but it was literally said "use it or loose it". They would blow through MAJOR money on purpose that they did not need- so they would get it again in next years budget.
I guess the fear is if they show they can get by 'this' year on less- they will get less next year when they might need more. The problem is- this happens *everywhere*- not just schools- and is why everything everywhere continues to skyrocket in cost. And yes- individuals also will take any raise in pay, benefit, retirement, etc that they can- again not just schools. Widespread condition effecting most all of humanity.
I also have been in an office while the dean of the school instructed a teacher to pass a failing, often absent, student to just get him out of there because they 'needed the seat' (meaning new tuition/money basically)
Josh beagiver - Maybe you should have said that but you didn't. FUD. Whether it's acceptable or not is all up to the BOE's. Why ask me instead of them? I'm not responsible but they are. That was my point of who to go to instead of posting it here. Their emails are on line, go for it.
FUD FUD
GC call it what you want. If there is 1.9 m involved and it belongs to ind. then it comes back. Fast.
I'm not worried about how it got messed up. I'll leave that to the authorities.
Ind. is a small town 1.9 is a lot of bread. That's all.
That 4.8% increase is going to cost me an additional $470.00 on my tax bill for the year putting me well over $10k. Remember when the new Middle School was built, the air conditioning system did not work which cost the District (taxpayers) around $500k to get fixed. If I recall they decided not to go after the Company responsible because the legal costs would have made it cost prohibitive.
kb2755 What's fud? Fear uncertainty and doubt is what google is telling me but that sounds out of context.
Why wouldn't Indy simply withhold payment until the money was satisfied then resume - maybe you folks that own their own business and have a better understanding of GAP rules can fill me in on how that works but I would think there has to be some better accountability for the funds.
kb2755 - The increase for you might be $470, I have no idea what your taxes are. However, the taxes you pay pay per year, not the property value, must be over $90,000 for that to happen. That means you have a property assessed at over $2 million. Which particular property is that? Even if the tax increases by that amount, it's not because of this overpayment. That's part of the overall issue. The original post tries to make it seem like the $ disappeared when instead it's a credit that's due GMRSD.
skippy - You've got FUD defined perfectly. If it seems out of context then you don't understand that's what the posters want to believe. GAAP has nothing to do with it. If it did then it would be a discussion of the positive balance and what to do with it. Instead it becomes "slush fund" and political problems and taxes that are the expenditure, not the already approved budget. For a guy in North Carolina, you're even more removed than iJay.
beagiver - Again, completely fair enough that it belongs to Independence. If you don't support several years payback instead of immediate, also completely fair. Take that up with the Independence people that agreed to 4 years instead of immediate. Personally that means for one year it might make status quo to keep the payments equal. But don't be under any misconception that next year and subsequent years it does nothing. Only better expenditure will do that. And given mandatory spending from Chris Christie there's no possibility of it. The eventual blame is not on the Indy BOE dispute the FUD. Hackettstown has the same problem. So does Washington (and Mansfield) for Warren Hills. So do loads of districts because its the State, not the local BOE.
GC, my taxes are currently 9,780 a year. A 4.8% increase is $470. While I know this is only on the school tax portion of my taxes it is still a considerable increase. The taxes in Independence have been over the so called 2% cap for many years in a row now.
Thanks GC for the definition - I concede I'm far removed - just trying to understand the context and offer relevant statements - thanks for the GAAP (duly corrected) alignment
kb2755 - That's exactly the point about FUD. This over payment won't get you more than a handful of dollars towards that $470 and yet all that screaming and yelling. Look into doing that budget exercise and learn the BOE isn't to blame either when 90% of the budget is mandated. There are a good dozen mandated programs more expensive than that $475,000/year so where is all of the righteous indignation about those?
iJay - incorrect.
If indeed the over payment is correct, the payback to the GMRSD should benefit residents both in Independence and Liberty. Correct? The benefit wishfully would be a lowering of the school tax portion on our property taxes. But if the repayment is over a 8 year period the savings would be small annually having little impact. Let's hope, now that this in the open, the business admins and BOE step up, concede the error, and make it right. Then again if they follow the so called leaders in Washington this too will get sucked into the Swamp.
Mike L To the taxpayer of Independence and Liberty. The following is so you fully know how you are being financially abused by this school board. GMR enrollment over the last 11 years has dropped off by at least 300 students, this is over a 30% decline. For those students who graduate and choose to attend H.H.S. a cost is involved. This per student cost I would say averaged approximately $12,000 over these 11 years. Multiply 300 X $12,000=$3,600,000. If we divide this number by 2 to arrive at an average DECLINE in student enrollment fees, it comes to $1,800,000 per year for 11 years which equals to $19,800,000 in lower costs. Over this same 11 year period I would conservatively estimate that 60 senior teachers have retired or left the district with an average salary of $80,000 and we will say that they were all replaced at an average salary of $50,000. for the sake of this example we will average down the amount of newer teachers to 30X$30,000 = $900,000 X11 years=$9,900,000 lower salary costs for this 11 year period.Keep in mind this number does not include lower pension costs,payroll taxes, health Insurance costs or the distinct possibility that we might not have replaced all of these retiring teachers due to our huge drop in enrollment. The total amount of lower costs, over 11 years, based on these simple calculations is $29,700,000. How, with these kind of lower costs, can our budget be increased every single one of these 11 years???. Now let us jump to the present and let me explain Mr. Mango and our boards scheme. First and foremost this board firmly believes that this is not your money it is theirs. Since the state eliminated the voting on school budgets. All boards are allowed to increase their spending by 2% every year without voter approval. Anything above that they have to go to the voters. Every single year this law has been in place our school Board has raised our taxes by the full 2%. Well as we can see, having enough cash is not a problem but having to much of it is. So Mr. Mango and the two B.A.'s figure out a way to overpay the Hackettstown B.O.E. student enrollment fees to the amount of $1,900,000. Mr.Mango is looking like a financial wizard down in Hackettstown and the poor taxpayers at GMR are totally clueless because they have been conditioned to accept ever higher school taxes. Yes GMR taxpayers, I wish I could say this is the end of the story but it only gets worse. Our Board has so much money that they do not want to give back to you they came up with a even better scheme. At last years budget they decided that they were going to start educating learning disabled children in district.The reason given was to save $60,000 in transportation costs, which I do not dispute. What they did not tell you (go check the minutes of the meeting) is that they set aside $750,000 to fund this program and another $250,000 in the prior years budget and as Indy2 mentions above, another $457,000 in this years budget. Lets see $750,000+$250,000+$457,000=$1,457,000 in expenditures -$120,000 in savings =$!,337,000 in spending increases to our school budget. This piece of financial brilliance was imposed upon you with not one word about these increased costs ever made public by our board,Mr. Mango or Mr. Havalush. Had this board just kept things as they were, without implementing this program, instead of receiving a $400,000 tax increase in the 2016 budget we would have received a $115,000 tax cut which would have been a first in I can't remember when.Just remember its not your money but theirs.
Mango cut the child study program in Great Meadows Regional. He brought in the county which is a huge disaster they can't keep staff. The woman iat liberty twp is a joke and knows nothing about the students. How can anyone respect Mango who is only at our district like 2 half days a week. I am sure he knew about the extra funds and I'm sure he used it in Hackettstown. This guy needs to go same as the 2 business administrators.
Htown brown Hammer, your math is laughable and fuzzy. Your numbers are also wrong. Are you drinking the iJay Kook-Aid?
You state enrollment has dropped over 300 students in a period of 11 years. Your calculations then show an enrollment drop of 300 students in a single year and then multiple that number by 11. Must have been one hell of an 8th grade class that year!
You state multiple teachers retired over an 11 year period. Again your math shows all of the teachers retired in a single year, which is. Or correct.
Nice attempt at using propaganda numbers though. Blatantly wrong, yet still convinced. Trump would be proud!
What date is the BOE meeting with your fuzzy special education numbers?
btownguy, those numbers are facts! It is clear you are drinking the union Kool Aid. You completely and deliberately distort what I wrote for your own agenda. I leave it up to the fair minded readers to judge my calculations. I stand behind them 100%.
Hammer, making assumptions again are we? I see you're taking a leg out of the iJay strategy book. We all know what happens when you assume!
I'm just using your own words to display your own skewed view and horribly incorrect math. I really hope you weren't a product of the local schools!
Please cite where your numbers came from. Furthermore, since HHS is a four year school, please inform us as to why GMMS is paying for students 7 years after they graduate, according to your math. And please let us know where the extra 1,650 students in your math problems came from.
2% increase per year is barely a cola adjustment. Not really a budget jnvrease.
Strangerdanger Once again GMRSD pays, literally, for having a shared superintendent. Funding another district, just like with Allamuchy. Too much goes on behind closed doors in public education. The sadness continues.
Htownforlife@gmail.c GC, incorrect? Pension and retiree medical are top costs that rise above inflation. Only medical benefits while employed are being tackled but still have a long way to go. It's just a few pennies for this huh?
About the 2%. Towns should have no increase for at least a decade (preferable two decades) to reduce taxes to a fair level before all of this excessive spending.
To throw additional coals onto the fire, at the last Hackettstown BOE meeting on March 8, there was reference about closing a school in the GMRSD (31 minute mark) and potentially merging GMRSD and Hackettstown SD; see attached video at the 36 minute mark. Where there's smoke there's fire. To the residents of Indy and Liberty, mark April 10 is the next GMRSD BOE meeting.
http://www.hackettstown.org/site/Default.aspx?PageID=5493
Then it wouldn't be an overpayment anymore....turns into misplaced petty cash :>)
bac Mr mango gets a $10k a year clothing expense fund from the hackettstown BOE and when took over the gmr district applied for a second 10k from gmr! Luckily they denied his request. Who needs a 10k wardrobe!!
Concerned in gmrsd 
Bob Trinneer "2% increase per year is barely a cola adjustment. Not really a budget jnvrease."
Maybe I'm missing something. Have I been getting a 2% cola in my SS each year and didn't know it?
The Man Over the last 7 years while we have had a 2% cap, my school taxes have increased an average of 4.16% per year in Independence. We now have 343 less students than we had 7 years ago. We paid higher than needed taxes to pay for tuition. Now we find out that they made a mistake but instead of returning the money to the people who overpaid, they decide to keep it and on top of that give us a 4.8% increase. There should be no tax increase this year to compensate the taxpayers that have overpaid for the last few years.
I can't speak to what you don't know (even I can't run that long :>) but yes, apparently getting cola-level $$$ increases is a nothing number to you but paying cola-level tax $$$ increase really blows those knickers skyward, frosts those muffins, takes your cake.
For SS, the cola differs from year to year. Some years is it quite a bit over 2%. I will let you look it up, could help with your budgeting :>) The difference is that for SS, cola is pegged to the CPI, CPI-W to be exct. For your Property Tax (which is the actual number in question I think) 2% is the max via our Constistupid and it is not pegged to anything else except this number which sounded very, very good to somebody. Of course, they often take the entire 2% every year. Crap, it's only 2%, wouldn't you take it? Heck, you wouldn't even notice it :>)
I think there is some give-back later if you don't take it, so you can take it the following year. Plus, there's many a project/funding that falls outside the 2% but sure looks like additional taxes for schools to you and I. Capital assets (like buying big things) might be an example outside the 2%.
But at a 3% average inflation factor (been even lower lately), 2% looks like pretty good deal. A stupid deal, like why 2%, but a pretty good one nonetheless.
Hope that helps.
Oh iJay, clearly not reading the conversations are we? It's been pointed out many times which individuals are responsible.
iJay, if you actually looked at school budgets you would see two big factors driving up costs - healthcare and special education. I'm sure this is where you'll rant about benefits and blah blah blah. However, ranting about that is only a band aid on the nationwide problem of healthcare costs. Why not direct that energy towards that instead of a school district?
Secondly, special education is a fixed cost. If a district cannot provide a student the services they need, then the student must be sent to where they can get it on the district's dime. I'm aware of a single student in a Hunterdon Country district that was cost the district almost $1,00,000 per year due to the extreme need for this individual. Actually, bringing those facilities and people into Htown could be a good revenue generator. I wonder if that's also a part of Mango's plan.
The gmrsd also collects money for BD students. Behavioral issue students and the district gets money from the state. My sources are family member teachers and boe friends.
btownguy
1,000,000 a year for educating a special needs child.
Logic would say just set up a $13 million trust for this child and they would be set for life.
How could a public education cost over 1, 000, 000 a year? Time to call bullsh#t on this one.
Greg, that's my fat fingers getting in the way on a tiny phone. That number should be $100,000 but I can't edit it. Either way, that's one district that has to pay around $100,000 (and possible perhaps a little more) per year to educate a single child. I don't want to name districts but it's a tiny town that's named after a language people of France speak.
As for the other point... Concerned, what you're saying is that there's no proof of it anywhere except from "teachers" and "boe friends"? Any benefit such as that would have to be noted in a contract and/or BOE minutes. Any expenditure has to be approved. Show me the proof. Otherwise, it's just hogwash.
Check the most recent agenda for Hackettstown. It looks like they are spending $97,000+ in tuition and services for a child they send out of district. And this wouldn't even include transportation.
Healthcare, how come all state workers are not on the same plan plus cut retiree medical to save money and join the benefit-level of the private sector?
Most current school employees will not receive full medical benefits in retirement. This was changed 5+years ago ( I don't remember exactly when, the years start to blend together after a while!). Only employees with 20+ (don't remember exact number) years in at the time were grandfathered.
Technically, I don't think school employees are considered state workers, they are employees of the school district.
To make rational decisions it is important have all the facts. To understand this situation you should attend the next board meeting and present your concerns and questions. Until that time,it would be advisable to hold conclusions until all the facts have been presented.
Kentuckymom Correct, by "state" I meant all public workers within this state (at any level). I stand corrected but you know what I mean. There should be a common benefits program for all public workers state and below; of course we can't get the federal workers involved.
We need cost containment.
just wondering...
did the 1.9m enable hboe to go over the cap without going over the cap??
Good question. I would also think that it allowed GM a much higher cap - as the 2% annual increase (accrued every year for 4 years) is based on artificially inflated expenses.
You all really need to go to a meeting and get some facts and answers to your questions. Spinning your wheels in cyber-space and postulating on the unknown is a waste of time.
By the way, each and every one of you has the ability to enact the changes that have been stated here in "pretend land". Every year there is a thing called an election for the BOE and guess what, you could run and possibly win. Now that would mean interacting with real people and possibly becoming "Hackettstown Life" famous, but your intellect and problem-solving abilities would be welcomed by all. Best of luck.
Have a nice day
crazyjane again I ask: did the 1.9 m allow hboe to spend over the cap without going over the cap. The meeting that will be attended will be with the commissioner of education.
how about that in your intellectual and problem solving mind?
sorry, I didn't realize that was you crazy jane.
I really don't think hboe budget was right up to the cap and that the 500,000 would have put it over. (:
My questions are, who on the GMBOE knows anything about finances? If this has been going on for 4 years, how come the audits never caught it, it's not like it's just a $100,000 where that could be overlooked and if Mango has been the superintendent these past four years then it just shows that he is not competent enough for this job,nor is Omelia and Mailloux, plus doesn't Mailloux own Global waste and his dumpsters are at all the Htown schools, why isn't that a conflict of interest?
Stop "thinking" and go find out. Be a giver, of what, your unfounded questions and opinions? Get answers and give your attention and time to the questions/problems.
Have a nice day
Tracker - I would think that the amount of dumpsters that Mailloux has at the schools would not produce enough revenue in comparison to his entire business to be considered a conflict of interest. If his revenue from the schools was say 50% or more for example then there would be a conflict of interest. My guess is that it is a very small percentage of his overall business that it should not create a conflict of interest.
townie Here's your opportunity to put up or shut up. GM BOE meeting tonight, here's the agenda:
http://www.gmrsd.com/cms/lib03/NJ01001526/Centricity/Shared/currentagenda.pdf
How many excuses can you make not to make the meeting, but continue to haphazardly guess about things here?
Have a nice day and get informed.
Perhaps everyone should take a break and enjoy some Friendly's ice cream cake ice cream. That stuff is addictive and puts a smile on your face. LOL...
gm mom, any business relationship you have with a BOE you are affiliated with can be considered a conflict of interest. There is no monetary thresh hold ,$1 qualifies. No Regrets and Beagiver are spot on with their comments/questions about both districts exceeding their respective the 2% spending caps. GMR definitely exceeded the cap all four years as they spend all they can. The Hackettstown BOE remains to be seen,but with this kind of money I would say it would be a fair bet that they exceeded the cap at least two of the four years. Which brings up my next point, that at least one district broke the law(GMR) and most likely, Hackettstown BOE as well. Do the Liberty and Independence township councils (I hope your reading this Mayors Giordano and Inscho) have legal grounds to sue the the GMR BOE to return this over payment Immediately to the taxpayers. I certainly think they do. To all concerned, I hope you all show up tonight at 7:00 P.M. Independence middle school.
if gmr overpaid, then they were limited in the amount they could have otherwise spent with the cap. if you're allowed $10, should pay out $1 and pay out $2, you're only left to spend $8 instead of $9. this overpaying would hurt gmr in its available spend. why are you thinking differently?
now, it does help hackytown, because they are allowed to collect $10 from their constituents and should collect $1 from gmr but collect $2, so they end up with more to spend.
Crazyjane, Thanks for posting tonight's school board agenda. My question, is policy 0167- public comments, limited to 5 minutes for the entire session or 5 minutes per speaker?
CJ
I'll be there. This forum reaches more people though... including me in Mercer County.
augh ... why did you make me read the agenda ... this is a school board ... the mission statement isn't proper English ... I don't care if you're a company trying to make something stand out, then it's fine, but a school, a board of education?!? ... sigh
Hammer,
I am a Television News Reporter covering the School Board Meeting tonight. Is there anyway you would be willing to contact me to give me more info prior to the meeting?
Please email me if so: kmoriarty@fios1news.com.
Thank you!
Best wishes,
Katie Moriarty
Fios 1 News
NJ Dayside Reporter
Katie News Reporter crazyjane,If you knew our( N.E.A full card carrying member) school board president (O'Melia) You would know why I brought up the question. Thanks for the reply.
Good lord, I truly hope a news reporter isn't using Hammer's slanted and incorrect views for a story.
Btownguy,
Would you consider emailing me and telling me your side of things? I am an unbiased reporter looking for local reaction to this situation.
*I am open to all opinions. Any area resident willing to voice their concerns, please contact me.
kmoriarty@fios1news.com.
Thank you.
The GMBOE spin doctors will downplay the overpayment citing the problem was made in error and repayment will be made. I am unable to attend the meeting so please ask about the BOE about the GMRSD school consolidation that is in the works. Thank you.
Sam I was surprised how much more information is released with the Hackettstown agenda and minutes than those of the GMRSD. None of the attachments seem to be included in GM. I thought with so many shared administrators, they would be very similar.
Too many administrator positions. If GMR sends all HS students to Hackettstown why is a Superintendent even needed even if it is part time? All of this costs taxpayer money and for what?
iJay, describe for us the duties of a Superintendent of schools. I'm curious if you're aware of what they do.
Katie, I will email.
It is a fact that there are too many. Look at the numbers in other states, look at the numbers, school districts in PA. You keep defending a broken system that most benefits its employees, not its students and definitely not the taxpayers.
iJay, you completely avoided the question. Is that because you don't know what the job responsibilities of a Superintendent are? Or did you just want to further recite your anti-education rhetoric? You state that there's too many, yet you don't know what their job is. If you don't know what they do, how can you say there's too many?
This is a fact. Home rule is the only reason. There are school districts that don't even have any schools, send every student k-12 to other districts. These districts have a superintendent. Don't make me list links where this issue is squashed.
"Is that because you don't know what the job responsibilities of a Superintendent are?"
I don't know either, but would it be wrong to guess that the bulk of the job deals with the proverbial "red tape", i.e. ensuring adherence to outside (non-district) mandates?
justintime A few observations from last nights meeting. The exact amount over paid is $1,989,657. Isn't it amazing how numbers like this get rounded down and not up. The accounting for this was plausible and held up under public scrutiny. With that being said,I would like the respective town councils to hire an independent auditor/accountant to give a unbiased opinion on this matter. I am sure there are assumptions being made in projecting these numbers. I would like to know what if any they are and how they affect the bottom line. As far as Mr.Mango is concerned,he is very taxpayer unfriendly. My prior post about retiring teachers and declining enrollment is spot on. The proof is his implementing the district's learning disabled children's program. This does nothing for the 700 students presently matriculating at GMR. What it does do is prop up the budget and keep Mango from giving this money back to the taxpayer. It also allows him to keep increasing spending at the maximum 2%cap level. Even if this does bring increased revenue to the district, the tax payer will never see it under this board or Mr.Mango. There will always be some needed program that has to be paid for or some teachers raise that must be given. For the tax payer there are only two solutions I can offer,electing a conservative slate of board members or putting up a For Sale sign. It seems the overwhelming choice of the people of New Jersey is the For Sale sign.
Always in any school discussion of costs, the first thing to look at is results. NJ ranks 1 or 2 in most major ranking estimates for public schools. One might just stop there under the mantra: if it ain't broke, don't fix it.
From the NEA 2015 state ranking report:
"States with the lowest student-teacher ratios were:
Vermont (10.0);
New Jersey (11.8);
New Hampshire (11.9);
North Dakota (12.1);
Maine (12.1).
(average US is 15.8)
The U.S. average per student expenditure for public elementary and secondary schools in 2013-14 fall enrollment was $11,355. States with the highest per student expenditures:
Vermont ($21,263);
New York ($20,428);
New Jersey ($20,117);
Alaska ($19,244)
Rhode Island ($18,627)."
Our price per student has been going down but we are still more expensive than most due to salaries, teacher/student ratios and student-support services. Think we have 590 school districts, average per state = 303. Enrollment is 1.35M, average per state = 970K, our enrollment is falling but only by .5% a year. So we pay a lot, we have low teacher/student ratios, provide most student support services, and we get results.
We also have a lot of districts in a world a less school districts and, for some strange reason, the NEA does not rank administrative costs. Weird..... I can find administrative costs, we cost more than average but not the most.
I think the fastest, easiest, and least disruptive cost savings that risks less in the "ain't broke, don't fix it" would be district consolidation to streamline and reduce administrative costs.
Probably same is true for our governing system relying on township, not county management.
Run HAMMER run. I would love to see you solve all of the problems and save the day.
Are you up for the challenge? Prob not. cluck, cluck
Have a nice day
"I would like the respective town councils to hire an independent auditor/accountant to give a unbiased opinion on this matter." how is this not required to begin with? I am sure they have an attorney on retainer - they clearly need an external auditor.
Be careful what you wish for crazyjane. If I was the third candidate that could wrest power from this board in this upcoming election I would be all in!. There is no way I could sit on this present board and tolerate the decisions that they have made and will make with out being in the majority. It is much easier and less stressful to put up the For Sale sign.
merge gmr with hackytown? on most things, independence and liberty don't even agree. why merge with a third town? beyond that, house and property values in nj have a direct correlation mostly to 2 things - access to the best school systems and easy commute to nyc and Philadelphia. we don't have the second. the only way to maintain or increase our properties' values is to maintain or increase the school's standings.
Hey Hammer, The 7 BOE members that vote intelligently have children in the district . the 2 that don't . do not have children in the district . quit being a dumb ass and move
EMCsquared,it is exactly that attitude why people do not want to step up and run for the board. You either tow the union line or deal with people like yourself who believe the N.E.A. has the right to extort money from the tax payer. Fear not EMC, the union fiefdom you so ardently support is here to stay. The entire system was designed and meant to eat up people like me. I am just some lonely blogger exercising my right to free speech and bringing to light what our BOE does not want you to know.
Another non answer from iJay. Go ahead. Post your list.
Hammer, prove your math for retired teachers. I dare you. Please include proper years and salary information.
General question. Why should town,state and federal employees get a pension. They technically work for non-profits. Private companies pay their pensions on profits not on town tax dollars.
Mr Happy I personally would like to see Hammer run. Somebody needs to stand up to the existing ignorance and not be afraid to dig beyond the surface. We need individuals on the BOE who are willing to ask the unpopular questions and not be there to serve themselves or their hidden agenda. Mango canned the GM CST a few years ago, saying he was saving money. Meanwhile it was to strike a deal with WC special services and to be able to take credit for what the director was already doing. CST hasn't been the same. At least the BOE didn't can the speech people as Mango wanted to. But who knows what went on behind the scenes there.
Bring the hammer down, run for the BOE.
Hammer, I believe you mean you're a lonely blogger creating alternate facts, false information and bad math to present to others. But then again, you've never presented proof and dodged questions about your math calculations. Keep talking in circles!
I do appreciate your short sighted approach. You acknowledge that some of Mango's plans could create revenue in the future, but completely disregard the potential long term plan for the sake of the "I want mine now, mommy!" petulant child approach.
So which do you want there Hammie? A long term plan that builds to down the road and could solve the issue or a band aid that we have to fix later? Personally, I prefer politicians with vision and you clearly lack it. And a calculator, too.
The GMRSD website now has an explanation of the tuition calculation.
http://www.gmrsd.com/site/default.aspx?PageType=3&DomainID=71&ModuleInstanceID=274&ViewID=047E6BE3-6D87-4130-8424-D8E4E9ED6C2A&RenderLoc=0&FlexDataID=1953&PageID=246
You have only won the argument in your mind, and the minds of other NJEA zombies and their "friends and family."
iJay - In other words you win when you have no skin in the game of anywhere near Hackettstown, you know everything about locations no where near you, you dump on the forum because it's your revenge on your employers, and it has to be right because in your own words they're "Zionists and unions" which is at 100% of the world's problems? And a racial basis is what you think is related to yard sale problems? "NJEA Zombies" is a straw man with a bit of another twist in the light of past posts.
I said before, you're wrong.
Somewhat true, I live about 10 miles away as the draw flies but a different county, different school district, etc. Revenge on my employer? How could I bite the hands that have fed me well even though my pension started it conversion over a decade ago? Zionists and Unions are not 100% the cause of the world's problems, I did say a big part as mentioned so they are a big percentage -- definitely a large part of the middle east's problems. Trillions in the Middle East (1970's oil crisis continued through wars, billions and billions in aid, thousands of americans killed, tens of thousands injured, over 100,000 killed in middle east/africa). Yard sale haggling, it is what it is from personal experience in NJ. NJEA Zombies not much different than the selfish mentality of Zionists.
I don't like my country hijacked. Am I the only one thinking this way? Am I delusional, are you delusional, are we both delusional? You may be civil GC but you are not always technically correct, you are most often "civilly correct."
iJay, I'm still waiting for you to explain what you believe the responsibilities of a Superintendent to be. And for your list of districts.
"NJEA Zombies not much different than the selfish mentality of Zionists." Yes, you are one of only a few that think this way. Can you explain how these "zombies" consistently, year after year, deliver one of the best public school education systems in the United States? Being selfish? Acting like Zionists?
I honestly lost track of the issues here behind the personal attacks, attacks of generality, and basic dithering. District-wise, we have more than average in a district-merging world. Probably the easiest and least risk way to cut costs, which NJ.
http://www.nj.gov/education/guide/
GMRS District:
2010-11 Costs Amount per Pupil: $15,236
2011-12 Costs Amount per Pupil: $15,915
2012-13 Costs Amount per Pupil: $16,385
2013-14 Costs Amount per Pupil: $17,004
2014-15 Costs Amount per Pupil: $18,959
Total Administration
Per Pupil Amount (2010-11 actual costs): $1,235
Per Pupil Amount (2011-12 actual costs): $1,332
Per Pupil Amount (2012-13 actual costs): $1,380
Per Pupil Amount (2013-14 actual costs): $1,584
Per Pupil Amount (2014-15 actual costs): $1,717
Our enrollment has declined by over 30% in the last 7 years. There is 900,000 coming back to our district this year from the 1.9 million over payment. Despite these facts, our district is raising the taxes for the two towns by over 3%. In Independence that means a 4.8 % increase. The board could subtract the 438,079 tax increase from the 900,000 and still have 461,921 left over. We could have a year where there is no tax increase. If they won't do it now, they never will.
Only talking about the enrollment decline is very narrow minded. If you ran a business do you think you could keep quality employees without raising their salary for 7 years? Are you living under a rock? Has your Electric, Gas, Water, Food, Transportation costs remained flat for the last 7 years? Should the children suffer because you want a few dollars back in your taxes? This is a BEDROOM COMMUNITY. Don't you get what that means? There is no Manufacturing, retail , etc to ease the tax pain. The school is the biggest employer. You should be talking to the town councils as to why they have done nothing in 10 years to open up the corridor that was shut down with the highlands act.. There is things that can be done... but they don't want to act .. read the letter clearly from the county if you may.. The GMRSD administration and Board did nothing wrong. As articulated this is normal process... So what's next INDY2 that you are going to falsely accuse the district of doing? Maybe you can open up a go fund me site if your short of cash living here.
Mr. Happy - you asked "Why should town,state and federal employees get a pension?"
The answers are simple - first, because the contract they signed to work for each year included a salary, health benefits and a promise of a pension. That's all tied into the total compensation package each employee accepted in exchange for their work. Second, because those same employees then paid into the pension system, expecting to be able to retrieve their money.
"The problem with socialism is that you eventually run out of other peoples' money."
Margaret Thatcher
ken e you're exactly right
hammer Ms. Thatcher was exactly right .
Free public education (as we define it) regardless of one's roots, has always been society's greatest way to subsidize the path to success. We spend, according to numbers I read above, over $250,000 per child to provide the opportunity to learn.
What a great investment! The key is that "learning is something you do, it's not done to you" I'm concerned about whether people really understand what is often wasted when/if there is a limited focus on learning. Parents and students should understand that $250,000 represents the idea that society really does care about every person. Then it's up to YOU to embrace the opportunity. Learn.
Beagiver, there is nothing "FREE" about public education. This entire post is about the exorbitant costs associated with that "free" education.
This post was created by Jeff Cullen, a resident of Independence (AKA “Hammer”) after he attended a public board meeting on March 13. At that meeting, he heard a brief explanation of the $1.9 million tuition adjustment or reconciliation and a discussion of the board. He had an opportunity to ask any questions about the $1.9 million or make any comments. He declined to do either. Instead, he went home and wrote a letter to the County Superintendent imploring them to make the district reduce our budget by $1.9 million and posted here on the forum under a code name. The original post is filled with lies and false accusations in the form of questions. This is typical of Mr. Cullen as he has been attacking and slandering the board, the staff, board members and the district as a whole for many years. In all the years he has been doing this, he and his wife have hid behind the name Indy2 on this forum. During this time, he and his wife have been throwing out lies and accusations, none of which have ever been substantiated or proven true. Even the letter from the County Superintendent which was read at the board meeting on Tuesday pointed out that Mr. Cullen used incorrect numbers in his original letter. Most parents, when raising children, do not tolerate lies. In fact, most parents punish their children if they lie to them. Mr. Cullen and his wife have been lying to residents about the school district for years without any consequences or punishment.
The questions we should all be asking are: Why would Mr. Cullen post something on this forum that wasn’t true? This would include statements about me personally and other members of our board and district. Why would he intentionally try and suggest the district did something illegal when he is fully aware of how a reconciliation works? Why does his wife, who is a board member, post here under the name Indy2 and criticize her own board? If Mr. Cullen is so concerned about the way the district is run, why hasn’t he ever run for the school board? Many of the residents were mad at the district after reading Mr. Cullen's original post. Maybe those same residents should be upset with Mr. Cullen because they were intentionally lied to?
I encourage all residents who have questions or comments about the school district to attend the board meetings and participate in the education of our most important residents, THE CHILDREN. www.gmrsd.com
Ed O'Melia Hammer, do you have any evidence to provide the public of any of your claims? Or are you just stirring the pot for nothing? So far, your claims have been proven incorrect with real data and you've failed to address them. Is it your hope that by making more wild and random accusations, people will listen?
Some people want proof. You've provided zero!
Hammer, did you flunk history? I wrote "as we define it" Do you really not know what that means? Really? How narrow could one be to not celebrate the fact that All kids get the opportunity for education-- REGARDLESS of their ability to pay?
We are a generous species. Leave it alone if you're not on board...... please
I thought for sure you'd at least acknowledge that I wrote that people should use their educational opportunity and not waste it. That's really expensive!
Get off the backs of gmboe and hboe!
"The more society drifts from the truth,the more it will hate those who speak it"
George Orwell
"Hammer doesn't know what he's talking about. He's making stuff up".
-iJay
See? I can write quotes too AND make up things like Hammer!
NJEA "Zombies" follow whatever the union leadership says. And the fools at the top making around 400k is yet another joke. As far as what a superintendent does I could care less, I am sure it is an overpaid job. Isn't it the one with 40 work from home days every Summer so they don't have to work like the rest of them.
How do you like these 2 billion?
http://www.nj.com/politics/index.ssf/2017/03/tab_for_public_workers_unused_sick_days_tops_2_bil.html#incart_river_home_pop
Anyone want to justify?
So iJay, you say there should be less Superintendents because there's so many by yet you can't talk about the job description. How can you say we need less when you don't know or care what they do?
Thanks for admitting that you don't know what they do. If you're uneducated about that matter of education, how many other matters that you spout about are also out of your wheelhouse?
To those who are unaware,Mr. Ed O'Melia (Whose comments are just above this post) is President of the GMR BOE. Mr. O'Melia you have no idea how much you just embarrassed yourself and the board you represent. You have a bad temper and you just blew it, you have no clue as to why. I think you ought to consider stepping down as president of the board.
iJay
Did you hear about the life insurance company that collected premiums every year and then when a family tries to collect, the company said "what?, you want us to pay you $200,000 for your dead relative? you pay into a pension you get $ from it.... plain and simple even for you, right? or maybe no? .. same with unused days.... you don't use them you get paid.... that's the contract..... just like that life insurance contract I mentioned earlier.......
Apply, get hired, do your job..... it's up to you. Good luck.
Actually, James "Hammie" Cullen, he presented more facts to disprove your lies. Game. Set. Match.
Ed
You presented no facts on the 1.9 million overpayment nor why we will be above the cap in taxes this year.
Unfortunately I work away during the week and cannot make the board meetings.
All you stated was Hammer lied...Lied about what?
And why do we have to wait 8 years to recover our overpayment?
You know, for someone that complains about his taxes, Geoff "Hammer" Cullen sure makes a lot on the public dollar at CCM and SCCC. I believe the Mrs also works for the County, too.
https://homeroom5.doe.state.nj.us/ethics/discforms.php?c=41;d=1785;s=87362;dl=20140201
Greg, GMRSD has provided an explanation on their website.
As for Hammer, he has used grossly in prescribed numbers and math, has states multiple falsehoods about the budgetary process, made multiple claims without proof and not responded to requests when called on these things.
Just because people earn a living working for the government, doesn't mean they can't question taxes. I don't see why that would make anyone so angry.
maja2 btownguy
I looked on http://www.gmrsd.com/ and saw no info on the overpayment.
I saw lots of dated info from December and the new meeting schedule.
Where on the website is it hidden?
beagiver you make ZERO sense. Insurance policies are contracts which explain what is covered and what is excluded. Just because you don't understand the contract don't blame the insurance company. This, for lack of a better word, is ignorance.
btownguy, you tell me. Tell me, for example, why a superintendent is needed for a school district with ZERO physical schools. This happens in our glorious state. Pure fraud.
I'm sorry iJay, I can't do that. I don't know which district you're referencing. You said you would provide a list and I'm still waiting. Show me the list and then we'll talk about why they may or may not be needed. You've already admitted that you don't k ow what a Superintendent does, so how do we even know if you're correctly identifying the individual as a Superintendent?
Greg, it's the first link on the website. So, it's hidden very well as the first thing on the page.
It's a bold strategy Cotton, let's see if it'll pay off.
http://blog.nj.com/njv_editorial_page/2009/07/phasing_out_njs_noschool_schoo.html
Simple Google search, not sure of the current status if all 26 no school districts have been phased out. Irregardless, 26 existed 10 years ago.
Can you justify this?
iJay, which is it? Earlier yo said these districts all had Superintendents and no kids. Now you're saying they might not exist. Which is it? Perhaps a simple Google search will help.
I worked for a private university. We got sick days, but when you retired, they had a set number that was the max they would pay. I must have lost 1,000 hours of pay. When I had open heart, I appreciated it. My brothers company said if you don,t use it, you loose it. He seldom used it. My daughter when she started working, she said to me. Everybody is picking on her for not taking them. I said are you sick. She said no. I said well they are sick days. She moved up it that company quite well. It's noticed. I will say this, we all liked our jobs.
Old Gent Once you read over the presentation this whole picture sure does change. No one missed anything, there already was a full audit which is the reason for the reconciliation, and the change in $ is not based on a large drop in number of students. The money is a result of Trenton lowering the tuition rate. And that happens two years after the fact. Even the "past four years" is wrong because it's really 2 1/2 years prior and 1 1/2 years including this year as well as half of next.
FUD doesn't even begin to describe this one. A pure hatchet job right from the start.
iJay - Bringing up stuff that happened 10 years ago?
GC, you obviously did not attend the presentation. The change in $ IS based on a large drop in the number of students at GMR as well as a large increase in enrollment from Hackettstown. The $2 million dollars owed is cumulative from the prior 4 years with the 2017-18 budget being one of those years.
Hammer - When you went to the presentation did you only hear "number of students affects the rate"? Let's go through the math. The amount due to Htown is # of students times tuition rate. Correct?
The number of students affects the bottom line by approx $12,000 each. The tuition rate affects the bottom line by approx 380 students.
So which matters more that amounts to $400k? A drop in 5 students for $60k or a drop of the tuition rate of $1000 for $380,000? Yes, the student population dropped but the tuition rate is what caused the vast majority of the discrepancy. When that fact becomes clear, all the rest of the questions get answered and there isn't the kind of mismanagement going on you're claiming.
GC, The only person in that room who truly knows what he is talking about,when it comes to accounting, is Mr.Havlusch. As rank amateurs we are incapable of fully understanding exactly what he was presenting. If you look at my prior post(s) you will see that I never accused Havlusch or the Hackettstown BA of incompetence. I did accuse them and Mango of collusion.One of the key metrics in this calculation is the projected cost to GMR ($13,500 for 15-16 budget year) for each student they send to H.H.S.. The eventual audited amount from the state came in at $12,930. This is a $570 lower than budgeted cost.My assertion is that this number was deliberately inflated knowing that it would lead to over taxation. With an 11 year track record of declining enrollment (A drop of over 300 students),fully acknowledged by Mr. Mango, why would they want to over state this number vs. understate it? simply put, because they can and it is in their best interests to do so. One last thing that I find damning,why were the amounts owed ($2M) allowed to accumulate over a four year period and not credited each year as they should have been?. This money is now in a lock box, free for Mr. Mango and this board to tax and spend to the educational nirvana they all dream about.
You can't cure stupid or argue with crazy. Hammer (AKA Mr. Cullen) you are on an island with no one to vote you off. Enjoy the solitude of your theory on this thread.
Have a nice day.
Ijay
DO NOT throw mud. Be civil.
Research your own answers.
Maybe get certified, get a state job, and save the planet. I know you can do it.
Why are posters calling others out by their real names on this thread ?? I didn't think that was allowed ! Just because you don't agree with them, doesn't mean you can break the rules !!
Mariann Because they are lying about others and making false claims from the truth. The Hammer and Indy2 have no concerns for the welfare of our children. They are only thinking about themselves and have no children in the district. This is not anything new. Its been going on for years with them. They don't care about you and your children. They only care about lowering their property taxes. They cant face the fact we are a bedroom community which makes our taxes higher to cover the overall regional school taxes. The 1.9 million claim and the process the school board and administration followed was a normal process. read the letter from the county... what a total waste of everyone's time. but guess what? they will look for something else now to stir up the community.
Mr. and Mrs. "Hammer" sounds like you need to build a compound and home school already! Stew in your own hate and, racist ignorance.
iJay-irregardless is not a word. The word regardless already means "without regard", which means the -ir prefix is redundant.
I attended the meeting, admittedly because of what I read here. The presentation about how tuition is calculated, and how every year we pay estimated tuition AND receive an adjustment on past tuition, made sense to me. I think what upsets people is, why are the estimates high? If you know our enrollment and tuition costs are going down, why not look at the history of what the actual (after final audit) tuition has been, and use a more realistic estimate? Be estimating higher, it appears GMR is giving Htown a free loan, when that money could be using for other purposes, like saving the Child Study Team.
It's like budgeting $100 every week for food, knowing that you are only going to spend $80, then socking away the extra $20. It's a nice idea - but what if your family really that $20 for other things?
Tuition goes up not down under normal circumstances. The tuition to Hackettstown is part of there overall budget. If they did what you were saying it would be the opposite and we would owe Hackettstown the money. so great for Great meadows and then it would have been a room full of Hackettstown residents. They try and balance the best they can. Your statement "knowing your only going to spend" is an unknown here are take two plus years to surface.
Hey Mr & Mrs Hammer .. news flash. Did you hear the new proposed federal budget is cutting education funds ? Are you going to blame GMR administration and the BOE when we stop getting that State and Federal aid that is covering 35% of the school Budget? to the tune of 7 million or so? Who do you think will need to pay the difference if that number goes down? Start thinking of ways you can twist this one around
Filo, Not sure what you mean. The actual tuition expenses after final audit (yes, which takes 2 years to complete) has been lower than the estimated tuition paid for at least 10 years running. At what point do they realize that perhaps they could estimate (and pay) a lesser amount, and use the difference for other items the district needs?
You could also present facts, iJay. That might make a happy ending. Or you know, the requested back up material.
If their student numbers are declining, maybe Great Meadows should hire some staff and keep their grade 9-12 IN Great Meadows.
And Hackettstown should repay GM Immediately.
If your bank made such an error, you would expect an immediate refund, Plus Interest.
Lili With my kids just beginning in GMRSD I would be in favor of the 9-12 in Great Meadows. Is that something that could be put forth to the board?
Kids First I would like to know if the GMRSD BOE is considering filing an ethics violation? In my opinion, it is obvious Mrs. Cullen is sharing confidential information with her husband, which is not ethical and action should be taken.
Justamom There is zero information regarding public schools that should not be public, except certain personnel issues. School districts are funded by taxpayers. I applaud the sharing of anything done by a public employee. So be glad if there are people who question, instead of bend over and take it. Whether they are right or wrong. What do you want, a field of sheep in the meadow?
If anyone wants their money back, they can't sell their house for a few years. Doesn't seem fair. Taxes rarely are. But the students can't suffer for any miscalculation.
Justamom, that may be an excellent question for an upcoming board meeting and/or an email to the BOE members
Just curious, but what confidential info was shared? A public boe should have limited confidential info to begin with so I'd think "confidential" would relate to student info and not necessarily employee or budgetary info.
I agree with Jit; most of the info being talked about should be in the public domain to begin with.
I understand the mechanics of why this happened and the time frames for true-up. That's not the complete money trail though, is it? I think that's the question still needing to be answered. Follow the money.....
It appears to me that the school was highballing the budget estimate for 3 years running high at about 10% of that part of the budget every year. OK, one year is a mulligan; two years is a potential trend. Three years sure seems like incompetence to me.... I mean on this part of the budget, you are about 10% off, you collect taxes to cover that 10% which was not needed, and then two years later, the school district gets that money returned ---- the school district, not the folks who overpaid the actual bill ---- the taxpayers. So who, if anyone, profited by that.
I mean a 7-year in-your-face declining student trend was right in front of you. But that's at a 5% or less decline per year. The cost drop was about 10% of the total budget per year so something beyond student count seems to be happening. The resource room for example. But after three years, one would expect the estimators to be able to do better than a 10% gap for the same reasons.
I think we need to know a little more about the money mechanics here. You budget 10% higher than needed. You collect the taxes to cover that. Two years later this 10% over-the-top comes back to you. How is that accounted for? Does it lower the tax bill two years previous and we all get a rebate check for the outage? Is it applied to the current budget inside or outside the budget's constant 2% yearly increase and the future taxpayer gets a "bonus" based on the overestimation of the past?
I mean who all "profits" from this "blue bird" kick-back that arrives two years after the tax payers were overcharged on their school taxes. How is the kick-back accounted for?
I emailed Ginny. Instead of the gofundme process, maybe we could just do a local fund drive. Gofundme takes too much of a percentage IMHO. Especially when it is a wholly local cause....
Rebecka Rebecka, did you mean for your post to go to the "structure fire" discussion? Or, were you wanting to gofundme for the BOE? ;)
pmnsk sd
well put! I asked this days ago and I believe it fits your query....... Did the $500,000 per year allow GMBOE to go over the 2% cap without "appearing" to go over the 2% cap?
Appears to be a good question given we don't understand the "accounting" for the money once it "reappears" on the GMR side of the equation.
Without more information, the term "slush fund" might be bandied about as a possibility. Especially since none of us saw any tax relief upon NOT SPENDING $1.9M of the taxpayer's payments........
Beyond that, nice charts though :>)
Stragerdanger, it is nice to see someone else who is actually thinking about this scam. The declining enrollment is an 11 YEAR DECLINE and I believe this year will make it 12 years in a row!. The key number is Mr. Havlusch's $13,500 figure. By overstating this number he can deliberately inflate the taxes that are required to fund the budget. The next thing that is even more damning is why were the prior 3 years of over paid taxes never applied to that corresponding years budget in the year they were incurred? Why were they aloud to accumulate?It is a slush fund. The money lowers Hacettstown taxes for 4 years and then this money comes back to GMR as a credit to increase their spending. The tax payer never gets his money back. The schools keep the money in house with Mr. Mango looking like a hero on both ends.
Not really sure it's a scam Hammer, just that the potential exists. Let's face it, it's human nature to estimate to cushion your budget. We would be more upset if they were short. I am not concluding anything nefarious happened at this point, could just be a 10% estimation error. Could be one of those things, could be simple incompetence, or might be something nefarious --- but unlike you, I doubt that. Whether said error profits anyone beyond making budgeting easier is unknown at this point.
What I was saying is that the multi-year error MIGHT SEEM more than a simple estimation error and we just don't know the accounting on the returned money. I don't think you really can say the overpayment lowered H-town's taxes, for example, without really knowing how it was accounted for. And since the money is being reconciled, I would gather the H-town taxes have compensated for the pluses/minuses by now given the multi-year event. I think it's more the GMR taxes that can be questioned as to how did the accounting work at that end. As to the why's on the error and the accounting, I just don't know. You seem to have arrived at some opinionated conclusions sans facts not presented. I would just like to know more before jumping to the "hang em high" conclusion.
Strangedanger, I am working very diligently on coming up with more facts. Some very interesting information came my way the past 24 hours. I will be working on nailing it down. If it is as good as I think it is, I will be starting another post.
Will you post have the same (lacking) quality of information as your first one, Jeff? Or should we invest in more tin foil hats to pick up your signals?
Hackettstown should be made to pay it back right away. It should be applied to GM taxpayers' budget base, so MAYBE the property tax increase this year could be avoided.
That would be the Ethical thing to do.
The GM board members should insist on immediate repayment.
If they don't, we need to vote them out.
(They are supposed to work for us.)
Parental Unit You can't vote out the current boe if nobody runs against them. If I remember correctly, during this past election not one candidate had an opponent.
How do we Impeach or fire our GM Board Members?
They were SUPPOSED to read the documents before voting to approve them.
Lili, what documents did they not read? What proof do you have that they sent read them?
Lili, wouldn't firing or impeaching the boe require some proof of wrong doing??? The only thing I have seen proof of is a bad accounting estimate. I have yet to see any proof of fraudulent activity. Innocent until proven guilty. And also please advise who will be replacing the current boe after you impeach them. Good luck getting volunteers for that role/ headache.
"Lili, yours is the best idea so far!!!" Except for the part that it is not legal according to the rules agreed upon by both parties..... But you could try....
BOE member are volunteers. Lili why don't you run and make great changes... we are counting on you :)
Lili, please share your platform. What makes you more qualified than anyone else to run?
We agree btownguy. But, any faith or construct (i.e. Unions) that is not strong enough to take scrutiny is inherently faulty.
What do we agree upon? That it's like a religion for you to attack education? By your own definition, you're inherently faulty given your inability to take any scrutiny. Same goes for Geoff the Hammer. Your logic, not mine.
iJay, your lack of actions speak louder than your words. You've been asked for information multiple times in this thread and didn't respond to any of them.
"The problem lies less with layers of government and excessive numbers of government workers providing services than with the generous salaries and benefits of those who are on the public payroll. Average state worker salaries: highest in the nation. Average teacher salaries: third highest. Public employee health benefit costs: second highest in the nation."
http://time.com/money/3824157/property-taxes-why-so-high/
Any comments btownguy?
Yeah, don't selectively quote, dummy. I can do it too...
"The community has good schools."
Sounds like a good reason to me!
"Defenders of high educator salaries always note that they're necessary given the high cost of living in the area, and it's a valid point."
Even the author agrees with me!
"The above-referenced editorial also points out that 48% of state and local revenues collected in N.J. come from property taxes, which is off-the-charts high: "No other state derives more than 41 percent of its revenue from that source; the U.S. average is 33.1 percent."
Hmm, sounds like that's a problem of the state. Perhaps hey should get revenues up and stop leaning on taxpayers so much.
"Little or no tourism"
That would probably help with the over reliance on property taxes. And be good for the states. But it's not the teachers fault.
"Little or no industry. The more that industrial and commercial businesses pay in taxes in a state or town, the less it's necessary for homeowners to cover the government's tab. "
That would Also probably help with the over reliance on property taxes. And be good for the state. But it's not the teachers fault.
"Your property is worth a bundle. Your property tax bill is based on multiplying the local tax rate times the assessed value of your home. So, generally speaking, the owners of more valuable homes pay more in property taxes."
A valuable home is a good thing to have! But could lead to high taxes. But it's not the teachers fault if you upgraded or purchased a fancy home.
"The National Taxpayers Union estimates that somewhere between 30% and 60% of properties are over-assessed."
Sounds like a problem that needs to be addressed. But it's not the teachers fault.
Yawn. Any more brain busters?
I never said it was the fault of the teachers. It is the fault of the unions in collaboration with liberal politicians most specifically in Trenton. Now, teachers that are stupid enough to question the excessive total compensation, rather than keep their mouths shut as they are recipients of the "scam," are a target as well. You (btownguy) might be one of these teachers or a friend/parent of such.
My argument resolves around "Excessive Total Compensation." It really is as simple as that.
iJay, you selected a single point from that article that supports your stance. I picked multiple that support mine. The article lays out multiple reasons for high taxes and you focus on a single point while ignoring the other ones, which are much bigger problems. Once again, focusing on a tiny little dot rather than the big picture.
Actually iJay, you are discussing nothing that has to do with the thread. And your conclusions are actually drawn, without data sources, to the Asbury Park Op-Ed of 2014 based on 2013 data while we are still in recession, unemployment rampant, etc.
Over the years, we have discussed this before and my conclusion, and one that the article makes as well is: "Your state relies heavily on property taxes." I think most of the rest of the article's conclusions are debatable, at least.
To me, there are two issues here: the first, and most important, is the NJ State total tax is high-ish, but we are in 7th place in 2014. Given who we are and what we offer, what do you expect? We can squeeze this total tax but, given the debt, ain't going to get much. Still worth pushing on.
Second, the percentage of taxes from property is the highest in the land, our property taxes are the highest in the land. The WAY we charge for taxes targets those without incomes like seniors who retire, drop income dramatically, and then discover they did not drop their state tax burden much. https://wallethub.com/edu/states-with-highest-lowest-tax-burden/20494/. Worse, for NJ that is, they discover they can save thousands per year on taxes just by moving out of state. This is fixable, literally overnight, but still might not affect your total tax unless you are a Senior or unemployed.
My point is NJ is a great place for a career, but no country for old men. These tax "targets" are affected negatively by the manner that we charge for taxes which every other state in the land has spurned making NJ non-competitive for citizens not attached to the job location. Seniors are actually somewhat more mobile than the young with no jobs to hold them down. Chances are, they might be looking to downsize anyway. Fact is, for Seniors, NJ is not competitive with any other state in the land ---- tax-wise speaking. And, for Seniors, it's not so much for what we are charged but more on how we are charged for it.
In other words, living here on these wages, I had little issue with NJ taxes. In fact, I could forget the rest and just focus on the property tax for my greatest total tax burden relief (which I have gotten twice in 30 years), and the pay was good. And yes, I am that guy who lived in the same NJ home for decades and twice has paid less in property taxes than previous years. But as soon as I retire, I can save literally thousands of dollars per year just by moving my house across state lines. I really don't want to yet hard to pass that one up.
Back to teachers: first, my stats say NJ is in fourth place in State salaries, not first. Oh, and that's with a 12% smaller average than private sector. And what the heck do you expect, we are in a wage happy state. Here are some more fun facts showing the mixed bag that is NJ education: https://wallethub.com/edu/best-and-worst-states-for-teachers/7159/
Not sure if I could find your sources on this stuff, especially the benefits part.
And as far as this being a liberal/union thing --- yeah sure. It was the liberals that did it. And, of course, your massive conservative that could do little to make it better. Matter of fact, does he even work for us now or is he doing drugs with the President? I mean does he have time even for a part-time volunteer drug czar job? Does he give us part of his salary back for time lost? Sorry, I digress.
Yes, according to this survey, NJ is the place to teach. Guess that helps draw some talent. And whatever we are doing, most studies rank NJ Public Education first or second in the nation. So whenever you start talking cuts, salary, benefits, whatever, please tell us how your plan retains our best-ever public education ranking? Because we are NUMBER 1 or 2 in most rankings of public education; we are tops when it comes to teaching as a career, a fact that you seem to not bother with in any of your assaults on the state.
Does anyone know of any group protesting NJ property taxes? Figure I have a few years to change it before it changes.......where I live.....
Less than 2 years! As I am saddened to say...again as I did in 2015: "Mark my words, this will be a disaster!" If interested, original thread as well as others:
Impending disaster for Hackettstown schools!
Mr. Mango, you should be ashamed! Nice fake tan and foundation....Great job with our money...
In case a poster is interested, my source is first-hand experience. I'm disgusted!
SD:
1) Every entity needs a budget.
2) Don't talk salaries, talk total compensation. Most teachers salaries are not excessive bit when benefits are added in they are.
3) Most people on both sides agree that Property Taxes are unfairly targeted in NJ to fund education. I believe it would be more fair elsewhere but that would raise other taxes. I am all for a VAT as the lesser of all evils.
Forcedtohomeschool, cite your facts. You never did in 2015. I'm also still looking for the line his contract that has his "fire staff members bonus". Also, please do some research as this issue is not Mango's fault.
Classic iJay avoidance. Dodging questions asked of him by posters. There's no conversation there, only "ramble on my point"
Are you still researching that list of school districts you said you would provide?
No tit for tat with you btownguy. I have my opinion and you have yours.
iJay - NJ public educators have excessive total compensation
btownguy - Pay is just right
Have a nice day
btownguy, is this not a forum? As I believe it is, I am not required to engage in a debate with you or any other party to this forum. I respect your opinion. Perhaps I'm in error, is yours more close to the truth than mine? The culture in the administration is an ugly one...just my own observation...relax, big guy
Opinions without facts float like leaves in the wind. You are right. No law that you have to support your points. Just makes discussion a little boring though.
Homeschoolio, you made a claim about someone that was proven false due to your inability to present proof. You can elect not to engage me, as iJay does, but that's only a sign of a lack of facts.
iJay, I guess you were making up that fact about school districts. Just another false line from iJay.
Strangerdanger and btownguy, points well taken. I concede. Sorry if I offended.
No fake news from me. You ask me for details that are just not that easy to come by. Just take the intent of this thread. An obvious overpayment that will be rectified over 8 years? Where else but the public sector can such a thing happen?
Details that aren't easy to come by?
If it's too difficult to come by an explanation of a Superintendent's responsibilities, then how can you claim GMRSD doesn't need one?
If it's too difficult to come by a list of those districts, why did you say "don't make me provide lists"?
Still waiting on answers to those and other questions.
A superintendent gets 40+ work from home days over the Summer. Seems like a no work deal. There are things in their "contracts" that are not pasted over the internet.
I am remembering last year's agenda at Hackettstown High School...there was discussion about the decline in sending school district's students to Hackettstown High School and the need to raise Hackettstown taxes to fill the gap. Were we using money that would not have been provided for otherwise hence killing two birds with one stone? You now have a bank of money in a town that is very good at fighting school budget increases, GM, and a "loan" for a town that doesn't have enough money to maintain their budget.
bpc Forcedtohomeschool?, not a problem, thanks, and happens to me all the time. (I just pretend it doesn't :>)
In 2009-2010 our local tax levy without debt, was 11,664,104. We had 1427 students. That averages out to 8173.86 per student. In 2016-2017 the tax was 13,689,655 with only 1070 students. If you add 2% per year to 8173.86 the per pupil amount for 2016-2017 would be 9389.20.
1070 students times 9389.20=10,046,444
13,689,655-10,046,444=3,643,211
This is the reason why they can overpay 1.9 million in tuition and not even miss it. There is no reason to increase the taxes again this year except that they can.
Not surprising that something like this would happen. When you share schools you are in bed with the other town(s) like it or not. My issue is the apparent nonchalant disregard for the taxpayers.
http://www.nj.com/education/2017/04/69_nj_schools_claim_no_teachers_took_sick_days_las.html#incart_2box_nj-homepage-featured
Widespread corruption and doing whatever they want to do...
Lili,
There is no petition to fix this. People need to run for the board. For the last number of years there have been only 2 board members that are both fiscally responsible and trying to do the best for the children.
The taxpayers need to pay attention to what the board is doing with their money. For example: In the budget they usually over estimate the amount needed for employee benefits by about 160,000 to 170,000. By inflating this number they can then get extra tax dollars above the cap added to the tax levy. In the last 3 years they have gotten an extra 193,465 from the taxpayers.
Indy, what were the actual costs of benefits versus the anticipated? Please share your research so we may all review the information.
iJay posting only half-truths again. Please read the entire article, as the zero sick day statement is explained clearly in the article. Nice try, tho!
btownguy,
Employee Benefits:
2013-14 Anticipated 2,436,928 Actual 2,275,114 over est. 161,814
2014-15 Anticipated 2,519,255 Actual 2,348,499 over est. 170,756
All of this is available in the budgets on the GMRSD web site and in N.J. DOE website.
Just a thought about "merit pay:" it is earned for meeting goals delineated in their contract? Isn't that the same standard used to evaluate just about every other employee outside k12? Give the "merit" to our teachers! These paper pushers don't deserve it!
Why isn't the proposed budget on the GMRSD web site? In 2 weeks the board will vote on the budget without the public being able to see it. I guess that's what they're counting on.
Why don't they post what was submitted? What's the big secret? Why can't the public review the budget before it gets voted on?
Here's a great comment from that video about the fantasy world Christie lives in:
Questioner: "You cut education spending."
Christie: "No. we spend more today."
I guess those budget cuts in his early terms never happened eh? I guess the lack of aid to districts is all imaginary?
Christie spells it out. That teacher starting out at 12k doesn't make that after 30 years and her pension amount is based upon an average of the final years I believe. Like he said, teachers were underpaid significantly in the 1980s. Now, teachers are overpaid significantly. Just the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth...
I have no problem with teachers getting paid well. Teachers have a tremendous impact on our society and future. or police officers or fire fighters or first responders.
iJay, using Christie to defend your argument? LOL that's rich. You do realize that the state literally stole from pension funds right? Christie is deplorable.
Scottso That video was from 2 years ago. Christie did raise the amount sent to the schools. It just wasn't our schools. He also took the money that was in school surpluses to plug his budget deficit. That was our tax money and I don't believe it was ever returned. He said that having the teachers pay towards their benefits would lower our property taxes. The board and the superintendent say that shared services and outsourcing the child study team would save the taxpayers money, and yet they have gone for the maximum tax increase every year for the last 7 years. While the student enrollment has decreased by 30% our tax levy has increased by over 17%.
Imagine what the taxes would be without those concessions. Free medical for life (as it was) on the backs of taxpayers who don't have it themselves was just pure corruption, pure...
How OUTRAGEOUS that Hackettstown would even Consider spending such a gross amount of money on vestibules, when they OWE GM $1.9 million!!!
Indy2, cite your source for your statement that Christie took money from local surpluses and applied it to a state budget gap.
That's also Christie's modus operandi. He ignores the income projections from advisors (that have been consistently correct) and builds a budget on his fantasy numbers. When the income is lower than he expected, he blames the teachers and cuts more. It's not the fault of the teachers that he knowingly used wrong numbers for almost all of his budgets.
iJay, those were the negotiated benefits. No corruption there. Nice try though.
LOL, LOL! "Negotiated"? This is why we will NEVER agree.
I say corruption, the unions and liberal Trenton politicians colluded.
You need your brain checked if you think the excessive total compensation was a fair negotiation?
GMRSD and Hackettstown SD to regionalize. Rumors are flying. Let's see how the BoE handles a larger, complex budget. If the BoE is seeking to merge the two school districts, will it require a public referendum? Or does the BoE have the authority to vote? What happens to the overpayment?
Merging is good but it seems like the lazy way to do it with details such as overpayments spread over 8 years...
Hey btwatguy - cite your own source that says it didn't happen, the surplus was taken by the state and never returned to us, and our tax levy didn't go down, as it was promised by the state to lower our taxes. It was in all the papers, look it up yourself. Do your own homework.
Cite your own source for once. You challenge everyone on here to do it, but never provide anything of substance to back up your own statements.
The valid sources used here have been quoted for you, If by wearing your tin foil hat you choose to not believe them, then prove them wrong yourself. Why are you so paranoid about public education? What kind of tin foil is your preferred brand for your hat?
bewildered-guy - Cite your sources -
To make a long story short... the Business Administrators in both districts are responsible for creating the tuition schedules and checking that the numbers are right. Clearly one or both of them missed something or didn't check.
Sure, GMMS overpaid, but Hackettstown will be paying it back
There was a similar situation recently with Newton and their sending districts and Newton upping the tuition considerably. Be happy you're not being handled like that!
btownguy
iJay you just sound jealous, being a good teacher is hard and is a calling people should be rewarded for coming to. did you want to be a teacher at one time and couldn't hack it? Is that why you are so bitter? I find this bashing of people that people think 'have it good' reprehensible. And I am not a teacher or public servant - I was laid off a few years back and work as a 1099'er, trying to raise a family, put kids through school, pay a mortgage etc. I have no health benefits, no 401k etc.
Do I care that people were able to negotiate good deals? Hell no! Do I care about NYC cops who worked 20 years and got a full pension for life? Hell no! Good for them. Would I want to be a teacher or a cop or a fireman and put up with the inherent stresses in each of those jobs? Absolutely not, but I'm grateful there are people that do and if they get benefits that I don't, more power to them.
Btownguy,
Here's one article from that time.
The surplus money came from extra money the taxpayers paid towards their schools. The attitude seems to be the same no matter which entity is involved. Once they have your money it belongs to them and they can do anything they want with it. 400 less students over the last 8 years but no cost saving for the taxpayers. If the enrollment had increased by that amount they would be going for extra taxes for the increase in students. It only flows in one direction.
https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&rct=j&q=&esrc=s&source=web&cd=5&cad=rja&uact=8&ved=0ahUKEwjf2IDT26bTAhWKwiYKHTkbCnEQFgg5MAQ&url= http%3A%2F%2Fwww.trentonian.com%2Farticle%2FTT%2F20100614%2FNEWS%2F306149997&usg=AFQjCNGIZ4e_m3mFbKKjUeqvmvc_0zN9KA&sig2=CAd96AyKhemmPa2tY_bdAg&bvm=bv.152479541,d.eWE
TEA
How does an Independence resident who paid into the 1.9 mil and just sold their house get their money back? Htown is repaying or whatever it's called, but I would think the former resident just gets a handshake and a thank you card.
This is a sticky one. I wonder if it's been thought about.
http://www.trentonian.com/article/TT/20100614/NEWS/306149997
Let's try this again. Hopefully this one will work.
beagiver,
They have no intention of returning the money to the taxpayers. They will incorporate it into the budget along with the tax increase. This year they will get 900,000. back from Hackettstown. This is the equivalent of approximately 3 years of tax increases and yet they won't even consider keeping the increase flat this year.
That's a 2010 story. I believe this is 2017 and these "surpluses" are starting in 2013. Just not sure Christies 2010 edict holds nor if it is effect, whether this overpayment represents a valid "surplus" according to said edict.
Besides that, I think you are spot on :>(
I do agree that knowing the accounting behind all this is important; especially against the proposed tax increases, etc.
Have not seen that data yet and have to say ----- this is one messed up thread when it comes to links and support data for allegations made.
Indy that article states that Christie ordered schools to use their surplus to make up for their reduced aid. He did not take from the districts to fill state budget coffers.
Indy2
Thanks. That's what I thought. If GMR didn't over pay couldn't the residents have paid at least a little less taxes the last few years?
Taxedmynuts,
#1 - look at the job description for any business administrator. You can google that yourself. Also, I have this knowledge through discussions with local officials and those in the education field. It's called investigation!
#2 - www.hackettstown.org. There's a presentation that shows and explains what happens and details repayment.
#3 - http://www.njherald.com/story/24782859/andover-green-school-boards-face-budget-hit-to-pay-for-newton-field
Sources cited. How about you tell iJay or Geoff the Hammer to cite some stuff now?
MikeL, regionalization is a complicated process. Studies must be done. All BOEs must approve. The state must approve. Taxpayers must also approve via referendum, and it must pass in ALL communities/districts or it won't go forward.
B,
The glass is half full or half empty. It's the same thing. Schools that had no surplus received the full amount of state aid. Schools that had surplus did not receive the full amount of state aid.
In February, the Republican governor ordered the freeze of $475 million in school aid payments in 2010 by requiring districts to use their excess surplus instead of state aid. The cuts were made at the time to help plug a deficit in this year's budget.
The surplus was like a savings account funded by the taxpayers of our district.
Stranger,
Btown wanted me to "cite my source" for saying this in a previous post:
That video was from 2 years ago. Christie did raise the amount sent to the schools. It just wasn't our schools. He also took the money that was in school surpluses to plug his budget deficit.
It was done in his first year in office to plug his budget deficit and I don't think it was done in subsequent years.
The funny thing about surplus is that the school is only allowed to have a certain amount. Anything over that amount needs to be returned to the taxpayers. That's why paying extra to the high school and getting it back 2-3 years later works so well. The money never has to be returned to the taxpayers, it can just be absorbed into the budget.
Scottso, I am not jealous. Want to be a teacher, never! My undergraduate degree in Civil Engineering was more difficult than any doctorate of education.
I am a Libertarian and when taxes are excessive it messes with my liberty. This applies to all waste at the State and Federal level.
From: https://www.lp.org/about/
"We seek to substantially reduce the size and intrusiveness of government and cut and eliminate taxes at every opportunity.
...
We believe that government’s only responsibility, if any, should be protecting people from force and fraud."
iJay, since you're comparing degrees you must obviously have experience with a doctorate in education. Where did you study? Or are you just once again attempting to devalue what educators do?
iJay makes some blanket assumptions about the difficulty of a degree and, once again, dodges a question and refuses to answer. Please explain how your undergraduate degree was more difficult than an advanced degree.
4catmom 
Minu No explanation should be needed. Undergraduate degree in Civil Engineering is more difficult, period.
Troll, 4catmom? How about speaking the truth? Some don't like the truth...
Oh, the "because I said so" explanation. I was unaware that engineers required a thesis for undergrad.
I didn't realize that the 'more difficult' degree automatically meant more difficult or challenging job. Or a job that required more effort or time.
I agree engineers need to be very knowledgable and well educated. However, math and science are very reliable. When teaching children, every child is different and requires different methods and time. Teachers are required to be 'on' every minute they are with children. Monitoring and adjusting to 25+ children's behaviors all while trying to teach and adjust your lesson on the fly in response to said 25+ children. Not as easy as on may think, even if you think the degree was easier to earn.
Some of the hardest working people I know actually don't even have a degree. I think just evaluating ones' worth by the difficulty or level of their degree is very short sighted.
I go by the career. I am in IT (Masters) and degrees don't necessarily mean anything. I can't say my Masters is all that special. In fact, my undergrad was more difficult. Some of the best programmers I have met don't have degrees but they are always learning and know their stuff, and they may not be that polished but they know their domain. We have also fired PhDs as they just couldn't learn new stuff.
Every career can be challenging. My point is that there is a pecking order. A neurosurgeon is more difficult than either a gym teacher or a Principal with a PhD in education. I would argue the Biology teacher with an undergrad degree is likely more difficult (from a studying and difficulty in the material) than the doctorate holding Principal.
To the point, I would argue that unions marginalize those who would question their compensation demands. They know it is true which is why they go after total compensation not base salary.
Finally, nothing will be solved via this forum. Both sides are entrenched. This topic boils down to compensation and we all want as much as we can get but have to settle at some point. A touchy and personal topic. Again, my assault is due to my non-negotiable requirement to fund via taxation.
This thread is not about where you went to college or whether teachers are compensated appropriately. It's about the taxpayers of Independence and Liberty and if we are being over taxed by our school district. An over payment of 1.9 million, 900,000 being returned this year and yet no reduction in taxes. 357 less students in 7 years and yet no reduction in taxes. In fact, they raise the taxes the maximum amount each year and then go for extra taxpayer dollars that they are not entitled to. They try to intimidate the people to keep them from asking questions. Look at what our board president did. He attacked two innocent people on this forum, one of whom is a fellow board member. The other is a citizen who regularly goes to the board meetings and asks questions. They say they want the public to come and express their issues, but watch out if you do.
Years ago the budget was available weeks before the board voted. People could look it over and ask informed questions. Now they present it and vote on it the same evening. The people of our district need to know what we are paying for and why there are no tax savings when we have 357 less students.
Indy2, do you have any proof that the individual claiming to be the BOE president is actually the president? I could change my name to Mango and people would believe I'm the Superintendent.
Also, I do notice that Geoff the Hammer has disappeared.
btg,
He goes on here under his own name. This isn't the first time he's done this.You seem to only believe what you want to and you continue to smear someone on only his word.
Hey EMCSquared- We are all a little BUSY WORKING(so we can pay our outrageously high taxes)- so it's hard to get to a meeting!!!
We get to some.
Meanwhile, Hackettstown is like a Shopoholic with a Credit Card-you OWE!
No more NEW stuff for YOU until you pay back Great Meadows!!!!!
You OWE them $1.9 Million!!!!!
PAY IT !
Indy2, take a look - Donald Trump has posted here. Must be the real thing since he used his own name!
I am beginning to look forward to the supposed upcoming elimination of the status quo.
The honest working taxpayer keeps getting F#%!#ed .
So what we now have sucks.
When we TAXPAYING Citizens ask for Accountability and Fairness, we are dismissed.
Feeling much more Pro Betsy DeVos.
Lili, you sound like a petulant child. "I don't like how things are, so go Betsy"
Are you aware of her stance and lack of experience on many issues?
You're in favor of removing the student loan protections like she just did?
You're in favor of dismantling top ranked schools to create mediocre or bottom ranked schools like in Michigan?
Are you aware of her views on special education?
I get that you don't like top ranked schools, but saying you support Devos and look forward to her change is like saying "I don't like the ring on my finger, so I'm going to chop off all of my apendages so I can get a new one"
Tell me which of her policies you support.
"You're in favor of removing the student loan protections like she just did?"
What protections are you referring to?
Student loans are taken *voluntarily* (unlike taxes which are forcibly applied) with responsibilities clearly defined when signing on the bottom line. It takes mere minutes to anticipate what those future responsibilities mean financially, correct? Likewise, entering into a loan means you've entered into a contract, making future promises for getting money today. That's quite common and there's nothing unusual about it.
But I think the concerns about student loans are more about the government-sanctioned predatory nature of the student loan industry. When you see high-level politicians creating laws that encourage crazy levels of student debt doesn't that concern you, especially since, being educated yourself, you know that statistically the odds of not everyone being able to pay back their loans are well known by those making the loans?
Besides too many people taking on loans they shouldn't, the real issue is the special nature of student loans being legally excluded from bankruptcy protection. Fix that particular oddity and I think the banks would evaluate their risks better and the "student loan crisis" would fix itself.
The bigger issue IMO is that we've created a society where the Jones' have a college degree, therefore everyone must have one. Completely ridiculous given human nature.
It's about the taxpayers of Independence and Liberty and if we are being over taxed by our school district. An over payment of 1.9 million, 900,000 being returned this year and yet no reduction in taxes. 357 less students in 7 years and yet no reduction in taxes. In fact, they raise the taxes the maximum amount each year and then go for extra taxpayer dollars that they are not entitled to
If people don't pay attention to this they may find that their taxes have doubled by the time their children graduate from high school. A week from today the board votes to increase the taxes. They will do this even though they will get back 900,000 this year of our tax money from the high school. That's the equivalent of 3 years of tax increases. Our enrollment is decreasing by approximately 50 students per year. That means that we have 400 less students than 8 years ago. Even at a cost of 10,000 per student that would be 4,000,000 that they don't have to spend. Why are there no cost savings from this? You would think that with 400 less students there would be.
For Ed O'Melia:
I appreciate your prior post. Knowing who is making statements and what agenda they may have does allow all who read this thread the ability to put things in perspective.
That said, assumptions are being made here that the repayment to GM will not have an impact on the future budget and the need to tax Liberty and Independence residents. Would you kindly explain how this $1.9M cash flow back to GM will impact the budget during the repayment years and what impact this will have on the tax dollars needed to maintain the GM budget during this time frame.
I'm sure all (or most) will appreciate your reply.
Thanks
For those who are interested the GMR BOE budget meeting is Tuesday 4/25/17 7:00 P.M. at the middle school. Do not miss this opportunity to see spin meister Mango extol the virtues of ever higher school taxes protecting his and this boards fiefdom.Some of the questions that one might want to ask our brilliant superintendent. How many thousand of dollars was and is being spent for implementing our learning disabled program in district? If this program was never implemented how many teachers would have been let go and would a school have to closed due to lack of enrollment? How much money would have been saved for the taxpayer if this never had been implemented? With a YEARLY review of our sending district costs, why was the error of overpaying $2million tax dollars discovered after 4 years? How was this discovered and who discovered it? Why is Mr. Havlusch sticking to the same per student cost of $13,500 per per GMR High School student that has led to our overpaying $2Million tax dollars for next years budget? especially with GMR still being owed $1.1 million dollars! Who cares if we underestimate this number we are owed this money anyway. With our budget over inflated by the $600,000 we overpaid in last years budget why are we still getting hit with a 1%-2% increase on our budget cap for this years budget? Did Mr. Mango recuse himself from all deliberations on this matter? If not why not? If he did not, whose side was he representing? How did they arrive at the 4 year pay back schedule? why not 3 or 2? These are just some of the questions that come to mind. I urge all of you to come to this meeting and ask some of your own unanswered questions.
I think a Great Meadows Tea Party revolt is appropriate and would be interesting! I hope everyone goes to the meeting!
Glad to see Geoff the Hammer back from the computer business in order to pose questions that were already answered here. Way to contribute buddy!
Step 1 is to have all public budgets available online. Preferably at the state or federal level so they can be compared against each other for various metrics. Sometimes excessive spending in an area can be justified but many times not.
What is for sure is that the money will be spent, but how?
County budgets: http://www.co.warren.nj.us/budget.html
Independence budgets: http://independencenj.com/municipal-budget-and-finances/
GMRS budgets: http://www.gmrsd.com/domain/8
Not that hard if you look iJay.....Or did you mean something different?
2016-2017 school budget not posted ----- should be.
NYRGUY's questions dovetail mine and I think that's what needs to come out at the meeting. Hammer --- what can I say ---- needs to improve his reading comprehension.
And whoever was happy about outing the Hammer seems to miss the point of having an anonymous board. Maybe we should seek total transparency but that would be a different experience I am sure.
ijay,
That's exactly what they don't want. The less information the public has the easier it is for them to do what ever they want to do. How many people in our district were aware that they had overpaid Hackettstown by 1.9 million until it was posted on the forum? Was it common knowledge that we had 357 less students over the last 7 years? Having the budget online before they vote would give the public too much information and make it harder for them to to justify it. This way they can do their public presentation, spin it the way they always do and vote on it before people can figure out what's going on.
They aren't honest with the public. Ed O'Melia posted that I lied. He is the one who has lied. He has accused people that he dislikes of being Indy2. I am not them and they are not me. He can't believe that anyone with the knowledge I have about the school could have that information without being a board member. The information that I put on the forum comes from the public information available to anyone online. People can also request data from the BOE office.
Look at the numbers. Come to your own conclusions and don't let a bully stop you from expressing your opinions.
Enrollment numbers are part of the user friendly public budget information. So, anyone who knows how to read could see.
Try again?
1) Implement California's Prop 13 in NJ this year
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/California_Proposition_13_(1978)
2) Cut public retiree medical immediately (Jan. 1, 2018)
3) Transition public pension plans to defined contribution plans with some grandfathering this year
4) Enact at the state level legislation prohibiting cashing in sick days
5) Enjoy a 1% property tax truly capped at inflation every year!
For example, your house has a current value of 250k, you pay just $2,500 per year in property taxes with subsequent annual increase capped at inflation. This is a true victory for the taxpayer!
Only the evil who support overcompensation of public employees would be against.
Hopefully, GMRSD BOE reviews the ethics code and determines if there are any ethics violations in relation to Indy2. It is quite interesting that her husband has more information than others, which is suggestive she shares confidential information.
"I will hold confidential all matters pertaining to the schools which, if disclosed, would needlessly injure individuals or the schools. In all other matters, I will provide accurate information and, in concert with my fellow board members, interpret to the staff the aspirations of the community for its school."
Additionally, this whole thread leaves me to question if she has violated the code by compromising the integrity of the board.
"I will recognize that authority rests with the board of education and will make no personal promises nor take any private action that may compromise the board."
Indy2 - Do you care at all about the children or just the money?
"I will make decisions in terms of the educational welfare of children and will seek to develop and maintain public schools that meet the individual needs of all children regardless of their ability, race, creed, sex, or social standing."
GMRSD residents,
Please consider coming out to tomorrow evening's Board Meeting at 7pm at the GMRSD Middle School. Among other things, they will be discussing the budget, student enrollment, and regionalization with the Hackettstown School District. As far as I've heard, Mr. Mango is pushing hard for regionalization and has possibly mentioned closing Liberty School. He danced around it at the last meeting giving a non-answer when he was directly asked. If you are available, please consider attending this meeting.
The agenda is vague, but here it is.
http://www.gmrsd.com/cms/lib03/NJ01001526/Centricity/Shared/currentagenda.pdf
Orange justamom - You are on the wrong track and you don't even know it. Eddy-boy is a bully and he attacked a sitting board member personally and without any proof and he needs to answer for that. thanks you for the exact quotes that will will hang him with an ethics violation. Good job on that one.
My guess is that he will dance around the Liberty closing until a decision is made in Hackettstown about their buildings. Heard he spoke of the possibility of sending some Hackettstown grades to GM and realigning the grade levels. Has he mentioned that in GM yet?
Orange, the agenda is from March 28. Tomorrow's agenda is not yet posted. Convenient isn't?
So H'town BoE has a fiscal problem, overcrowding in their schools, and in need of capital improvements. The superintendent (Mango) who oversees both districts is pushing a merger or sending H'town students to GMRSD. The H'town problem was under Mango's watch and conveniently has control over GMRSD. Wake up Independence and Liberty Twp residents. If you are concerned about your tax bill, and watering down of education, attend tomorrow's meeting and bring your questions with you.
night owl We like our quiet Great Meadows.
And we pay a LOT in taxes to live here.
Hackettstown should take care of its own issues.
The high school is horrible.
We hope to move before our kids reach grade 9.
Hackettstown usurped our tax dollars.
Are we a "doner township" now?
We got robbed by Hackettstown BOE!!
We need to separate from them 100 %.
Lili, why is the HS horrible? By my research, it offers more opportunities, classes and experiences than almost every other HS in the County
Lili - a little bitter? What do you know about the HS if you've never sent a kid there?
Hackettstown would be nuts to regionalize. It wouldn't save a dime, they would loose control of their schools and add bussing. Same amount of teachers, same amount of admin, same overhead.
Actually, it may incur even more costs. You'd have to normalize and balance out the salary guide. That would have to be negotiated and I can guarantee that no one would take a paycut.
Justamom,btownguy and all the rest of you who are oh so willing to put names on people anonymously blogging on this post. I strongly urge you to scroll back and reread my two immediate posts after Mr. O'Melia's comments above.
Geoffrey, my Hammer man, you have no proof that poster is O'Melia. Sure he used the name. I could post here as Chris Christie but that doesn't mean it's really Krispy Kreme himself.
Heck, since we know you're in the computers business, how do we know you didn't do it yourself?
Perhaps you could go back, read the questions posted to you and actually reply?
"You'd have to normalize and balance out the salary guide. That would have to be negotiated and I can guarantee that no one would take a paycut."
Sounds like a Mafia assaulting the taxpayers to me btownguy...
iJay is right. You could reduce some salaries and lose excellent staff. Market economics.
btownguy just shot himself in the foot by admitting what the extortionists do...
In this case he candidly states they will equalize UP the compensation.
I rest my case, guilty as charged, sentence???
Aquarius No, but they are paid by the taxpayers not a corporation. Taxpayers have zero choice but to take it. That is the point...
Bring in the NEWLY graduated excellent staff (from Centenary) and maybe we could actually hire people who want to teach because they LOVE to Teach! (Not teach to get benefits/retirement packages) .
Golden handcuffs are a big part of it. Many teachers are great for 5-10 years and then the last years just riding out for the ol' pension and benefits. Definitely not everyone, but too many IMHO...
iJay, you make me giggle. Your attempts are cute. Is it not common sense? If your division at work was merged with another division and you took a $5k pay cut because the other division was paid less, would you go along with it?
Anyway, with regionalization a new contract will need to be negotiated. It's simple regionalization 101. Didn't you do your homework?
Has any one read the agenda for tomorrow's BOE Meeting? Hidden under pages and pages of old books, it would appear that they are laying off staff in Hackettstown!
French teacher, Chemistry teacher, Agriculture teacher, English Language teacher, BSI teacher, secretaries, Kindergarten aides and a SAC (I think that's a counselor?).
But in the same pages they are approving updating the HHS Library with our tax money. Screw the furniture. What about the people who should be teaching our kids?
Only in the public sector does the concept of consolidation cutting expenses not work...
Seenit, I saw the same thing. Cutting staff, but spending over $600,000 on furniture! As it is happening in Hackettstown, I wonder if it warrants a new thread.
There's no hiding Of anything here. If you read the presentations posted on the district website, particularly the budget one, it indicates that staff would be impacted and cuts were made. If anything, the fact that the positions are listed in the agenda is typically MORE information than most other districts. Typically other districts won't indicate staff cuts until after the meetings.
"Seenit, I saw the same thing. Cutting staff, but spending over $600,000 on furniture!"
You know you have to have deckchairs if you want to re-arrange them.....:>) I don't know about you, but I'm going below to get some ice for my Collins.
Actually that's mean and not true. It's really a major investment in HHS's new morale improvement program. Now when they play musical chairs, everyone gets one. Ahhhhh. Goooood.
Wait, wait, I forget ---- no music teacher due to previous turns at musical chairs.
btownguy,
You were asked a very simple question. Yes or no. Do you live in our district? That is either Independence or Liberty. Local could be any of the surrounding towns. How about a straight answer to the question?
Indy, I answered your question. Perhaps you need a reading comprehension refresher?
You asked if I lived in one or the other.
I responded yes.
Do you understand what that means?
Btown guy.... I agree with you. The bashers don't get the fact that salaries/ benefits are negotiated. Back in the day when inflation was 10 % teachers got less and/or put their efforts into keeping their benefits at the expense of salary increases.
It's called prioritizing. You give something up to keep something else. You'll never get the ijs to understand the history of contracts.
Vote for Governor, Vote Democrat!
If the pitiful whiners would like to change jobs... do it. Didn't your college offer degrees?
GMRSD just posted a proposal to send Hackettstown 7-8 grade to GMRSD Middle School starting 2018-2019 school year. There is a corresponding survey as well.
http://www.gmrsd.com/site/default.aspx?PageType=3&DomainID=1&ModuleInstanceID=281&ViewID=047E6BE3-6D87-4130-8424-D8E4E9ED6C2A&RenderLoc=0&FlexDataID=1974&PageID=1
"Btown guy.... I agree with you. The bashers don't get the fact that salaries/ benefits are negotiated" More like extorted. I don't recognize any claim to ill gotten gains by unions...
Where, no "contracts" in my quote from nodope? Negotiated looks good? Do you mean "Collective Bargaining", the ultimate in taxpayer extortion?
Now that they have voted to raise our taxes, the budget is finally available to the public on the Great Meadows website.
http://www.gmrsd.com/
Wow- Liberty Taxes are actually going down $200 for an average home while Independence is going up by about $200. Is that true??
interested resident Yes it's true. Liberty's enrollment is decreasing faster than Independence's. More and more Independence will be paying the entire tax increase. That's why Independence residents can expect 4% and higher (much higher) increases every year.
Public employee contracts aren't negotiated. You have to have an adversarial relationship to negotiate terms of a public employee contract. This never happens in NJ public employee contracts. Never. People go to meetings and express their opinions, only to be shut down, ignored or belittled by their elected politicians or special interest spokes idiots always lurking around the open meetings.
As for the money, Independence and Liberty residents shouldn't have to pay schools taxes. Let H'town pay them with the correct interest of course. Give them a year to pay it, they have it.
One-Eyed Poacher Lili,
They are getting 900,000 dollars back this year and they increased our taxes anyway. Even if they got the whole 1.9 million in one year they would still say they needed more money. The superintendent and board members couldn't care less about the taxpayers or whether this township is affordable.
I will second the above statement from Indy2. Mango and this board will be spending all they can while they can. You either move or vote them out. There are no other choices to relieve you from this ever increasing tax burden.
So we (Hackettstown) owe GMR for a 1.9 million dollar over payment, we (Hackettstown) are adding 450 units (Bilby Rd + Bergen St) to our already over crowded schools....we (Hackettstown) are cutting staff left and right....
I know that for my .2 acres (yes, there is a "point" before the #2)...I Pay 13.5k per year. My taxes keep going up, I still drive my kids to school (no buses) and the services are rapidly disappearing.
But I WILL HAVE A NEW MEDIA CENTER AT THE HIGH SCHOOL!!! woohoo! Thank the lucky stars.
Truth is the H.S. is ranked over 200, the town is growing at a WAY too fast rate and people have always entered a new project with a build now, solve later mindset.
We need to streamline the process for firing these corrupt people.
It is UNBELIEVABLE that these people approved such extravagant spending when they OWE!
Lili, the overpayments have been explained. Why aren't you placing blame on the County for not checking and correcting it sooner?
Show us your proof of corruption.
County? Why should the county be responsible? Note, that some school districts cross counties. Wrong again btownguy...
Because every budget before it goes for final boe vote has to be approved by the county superintendent and county business administrator.
iJay, that's for another willing display of ignorance! Sometimes you make it too easy.
Anyway, as Justsayin2 said... all budgets are reviewed by the County Superintendent and their office. If you had read any of the material discussing how the overpayment was found, you'll know that the County level is part of the process.
Nice try tho, iJay! It's cute to watch you try and act like you know what you're talking about! ;)
WTF, there is a county superintendent position! How many layers of useless management can there be?
Btownguy, you are so deep in public inefficiency that you don't see it. You are truly a blind man...
ij........ you're kidding right? you didn't know there are county supts????
I think your concerns should be addressed at the state level. Get off the backs of your neighbors who volunteer to serve and direct your anger at Politicians.
Most mandates re: education come down from State/ National level at Great Cost and no funding....... ie NCLB, ESL, special education, building design, curriculum.
REPEAT--- mandates are force-fed.
iJay, what are the job responsibilities of the County superintendent? How do you know they're useless? You've already demonstrated that you don't know what a district superintendent does by refusing to answer that question, so are we in the same situation here?
I love watching you grasp at straws. It's cute.
It is a fact there is too much management in NJ education. Many reports document this corruption. Do you dare counter this. If so swear on your life and your loved ones.
iJay, swear on my life and loves ones? I will but only if you cross your fingers and hope to die, stick a needle in your eye! Dont forget to circle circle dot dot get your cootie shot!
How about you tell us what a Superintendent does? Then we can talk about if it's too much management.
You're adorable when you try to be a big internet tough guy!
No thank you, a waste of my time. One last comment on this thread. I recommend that you take your view on things to some local taxpayers at a local watering hole. Like I recommended to another teacher long ago, start discussing your views on public workers in the school system. I am pretty sure you will leave with a couple or so less teeth :)
Sharing information is a waste of time? Wow. Good thing our teachers don't have your attitude!
So, again, you don't know what a Superintendent does. Thanks for confirming Mr tough guy!
This isn't about what a superintendent does. It's about the tax levy increasing 19% in 8 years while at the same time enrollment has decreased by 400 students. It doesn't matter to me who made the mistake and overpaid 1.9 million to the high school. It matters to me that they have no intention of lowering our tax bill or even keeping it flat to compensate the people who paid the taxes in the first place. They make a mistake and get 900,000 this year. Independence gets a 4.3% tax increase.
Yes it does matter. You're making claims that it's this persons fault or that person yet you don't know what their jobs are. You claim you don't need a Superintendent yet you don't k ow what the job is.
Keep flailing iJay. Keep flailing.
You are delusional btownguy. You actually believe there is NOTHING wrong with the education system. You are living in your own little bubble, which will burst at some point. Hopefully you will not needs meds and therapy...
Says the one that doesn't answer any questions. I'd call that living in a bubble. I've never said the system is perfect, but thanks for trying to put words in my mouth! Love watching you in your throes of defeat.
http://www.co.warren.nj.us/edu.html
To reach the Warren County Department of Education, dial 908-689-0497.
The Warren County Department of Education is mandated by NJAC 18A:7. The office is a middleman between the New Jersey Department of Education and the local school districts within Warren County. Some of the services and programs the office provides are:
NJQSAC – Quality Single Accountability Continuum – State staff from our office monitor each district, on a three-year cycle, for Instruction & Program, Personnel, Fiscal Management, Operations, and Governance.
Promote administrative and operational efficiencies and cost savings within the school districts in the county while ensuring that the districts provide a thorough and efficient system of education.
Review and approve all employment contracts for superintendents of schools, assistant superintendents of schools, and school business administrators in school districts within the county.
Review, assist and approve reports for public school districts in the county
What do I win? They are like an OIG for municipalities
"I've never said the system is perfect" Now we are getting somewhere. Looking for perfection is futile but it does need a lot of improvement in controlling costs for the taxpayers.
What I have never understood is why New Jersey has never taken advantage of the economies of scale in regionalization across the board. Some districts have but there are still way too many fiefdoms and reduncies that are detrimental to both the taxpayers and the quality of education. It's much cheaper to buy books from a publisher for 30 schools than for one for example.
skippy,
Shared services can save taxpayers money, but only if it is passed on to them. We are supposedly saving money by sharing the superintendent but our taxes have been raised the maximum amount every year with extra money added on for benefits above the cap.
How are they saving the taxpayers money if we are taxed the maximum every year?
Having 400 less students than 8 years ago is an important issue. 80 less high school students should mean approximately 1 million less in tuition than 8 years ago.
320 less students in the grade school means approximately 16 less teachers needed while still maintaining 19 children per class. That's about 1.3 million less needed in salaries and benefits. How about transportation. We are spending about 170,000 more now than we spent 8 years ago and we have 400 less riding the buses. At 50 children per bus, I estimate we need 8 less buses transporting children morning and afternoon. Why is there no savings on these issues?
Just know enough to be dangerous here, yet some points.
Ijay --- before all your kvetching, you do realize that this is primarily about educating our kids not only to be competitive across the world, but also to perhaps be exceptional by way of education, right?
And you do believe that all of us should pony up to fund said education right?
And you are not just looking to see how cheap you can bring it in, right?
That said, I know you realize that the NJ Public Education System is in the top five of almost any ranking and usually number 1 or 2? One might ask why would any sane person want to mess with that success much less treat it as the bane of their existence. Sure, "no system is perfect," but the ranking seems to belie your rankling.
Like when indy says "It's about the tax levy increasing 19% in 8 years while at the same time enrollment has decreased by 400 students." Hmmm. With 2% - 3% average CPI inflation, one would expect 16% - 24% tax levy increase given all other things remain the same. If enrollment has decreased by 400 students, many costs like buildings, heat, busing, etc. are fixed and do not decrease. Likewise, why it makes common sense that a 400 unit decrease should be reflected in price, there is no guarantee that ANY variable cost (like teachers) will drop. It's a probably at best.
So the increase makes sense against the price of things over time, the loss of students does not guarantee a corresponding drop in costs (matter of fact no way would it ever be corresponding), and really all you have presented is a possibility.
Just saying....
That said, I am all for consolidation and believe, IMO, that it can be done to save some costs while improving the consistency of results in NJ across the entire state. The NJQSAC at first blush sounds like bureaucratic overhead. Except that we are number 1, so need to tread softly. Frankly I would ask --- do you guys work for other states too (create a profit center)? I mean if we are this good, we should sell our talent....
As I have said before, when you look at NJ tax load, we pay a lot. Too much. And too much debt on top. When you look at how we pay it, too much tax is generated by property which unfairly targets seniors and the unemployed. Not to mention being uncompetitive with every other state in our Union. For seniors, this is a major item to force them out of state at retirement --- it's the fiscally prudent thing for seniors to do unless something else is a higher priority over saving tax dollars. That's the issue --- the property tax needs to be competitive with other states, move closer to those making money and quit focusing so much on those who don't. Not that the bottom line revenue will be different, just the targets from whence it comes from.
For education, we have the best in the land and we don't pay that much more than others at the top of the heap. At best you will shave some dollars of this budget and I suggest that district consolidation is the way to go. We have over 600 school districts, 586 active. There are 21 counties in NJ. Imagine if that mapped to school districts.....
Maryland has 24 counties. They have 25 school districts. They are number 16 in public school rankings. They spend $14,000 per student, we spend $18,000 (2014). I am guessing we can keep our ranking level and cut some costs (~10%) through consolidation. We might save up to 20% but I believe we would lose our ranking spot if we did that.
Just saying.
So all of the extra money goes to employee benefits or student benefits ? As far as bus savings it makes sense that a vehicle costs x amount per mile to operate regardless of how many seats are filled - if the students live in geographically divergent areas the cost is the same - more busses for less miles per day or less busses more mileage and more operator salary per hour operated. As far as teachers it would depend on wether the students are in the same grade or is the distribution over all of the grades - I'm no expert on education but it seems like some of the stuff you mentioned may be sunk costs. I am not sure how to do that efficiently
sd,
There's a reason why they could overpay by almost 2 million without cutting any services. They didn't get to the end of the year, in the last 4 years, and find that they had a deficit. It's because they have much more money coming in than they actually needed to educate the children. The schools shouldn't be funded through property taxes and the budgets should be standardized through the state. If the state was paying for the school budget they would scrutinize it much more than the taxpayers in our district do.
iJay, one way to improve costs for ALL Americans is to look at how outlandish or healthcare costs are and how the industry gets away with overcharging. Bring those into line and you'll help all Americans by putting more money in their pocket and reducing rising costs in schools as well. But it's easier for you to say "teachers bad, pay them minimum wage!"
skippy,
I would agree if we were talking about 20-30 students. That would be difficult to spread over 7 grades. 320 students over 7 grades is approximately 45-46 students per grade.
Look at this long term. Right now we have about 1000 students in total. For the last 8 years the enrollment has decreased by an average of 50 per year. In 7 years the tax levy increased by 2 million. 7 years from now, if nothing changes, we will have 650 students and the tax levy will be 2 million more. Another 7 years and we will have 300 students and the tax levy will be between 18 -19 million. At what point does this make a difference?
Oh, the old minimum wage argument. Keep the salaries the same but:
1) Cancel retiree medical
2) Convert pensions to 401Ks
How is this minimum wage? The two points above resolves the excessive total compensation paid-by-the-taxpayers issue...
Ijay - dont look now but a zionist NJEA member just ran outside!
I agree with you that inefficiencies need to be leveraged and another source of funding needs to be sought other than property taxes, however, to take the current trend and extrapolate it out 14 years is not statistically accurate - I am pretty sure there are peaks and valleys in enrollment
http://statchatva.org/2014/01/27/a-quick-glance-at-school-enrollment-projections/
http://www.upg-bulletin-se.ro/archive/2015-2/5.Lazar_Lazar.pdf
there is a whole branch of economics that studies just that.
look at the second link for the algorithm - it's actually pretty interesting. If you run the numbers you can go back to board with a data driven strategy.
here is an excel worksheet with the formulas embedded and a PDF with instructions on the arrays should you be interested
http://www.imir.iupui.edu/enrollmentTargets/worksheet_template.xls
http://www.imir.iupui.edu/enrollmenttargets/workshop_instructions.pdf
regarding consolidation - more often than not, residents of independence and liberty do not view (vote) issues the same way. I don't see how adding additional opinions will make things smoother or better.
regarding teacher salaries - I think the only people who can say teachers are paid too much are the ones who have applied to become teachers and who would take less. if you have no interest in becoming a teacher, what you're saying through your actions, more clearly than any words, is the profession doesn't pay enough.
iJay, if you're removing retirement benefits then increase salaries. Teachers take their salaries with the understanding that they'll be compensated via benefits. If you're removing retirement medical, then increase salaries.
http://www.njspotlight.com/tables/16tsals/
database that includes salary and other data for almost 9,200 public school administrators and nearly 135,000 teachers and other professional nonadministrative staff who worked in the state last year
folks are doing between 55 - 95 K in Hackettstown
now extrapolate that out for the work year attributable to each class of employee. Teachers are typically ten-month employees - so they work 83.3 % of a year (their health coverage is for the entire year ). so to see a total comp you have to factor that in and another 10% for post retirement benefits. NJ better be #1 in education.
"if you have no interest in becoming a teacher, what you're saying through your actions, more clearly than any words, is the profession doesn't pay enough."
That's a bit of a leap. It probably means a person just has no interest in teaching. I have no interest in teaching. Just as I have no interest in running a multi-national company or being a surgeon, and that's certainly not because those professions don't pay enough.
ok I don't disagree - just did a quick calculation of 20 years of work and 20 years of retirement - could indeed be more. Many districts also have a 403B which is the government 401K as well as a pension. Educators do ok
skippy, those 403B plans are employee paid for. No districts are contributing to a 403B and a pension.
The other problem with the pension is that the calculation is based upon a calculation that in generally averages the last 3 years of salary plus years of service. This method makes it desirable for to move around in search of a higher salary to get a higher pension in those last years.
Inaccurate in reality, as it becomes nearly impossible for a teacher at the top end of a career to be hired by a new district due to financial issues. Administrators are more likely to jump around in the way described.
ijay teachers do not move around in their final years, districts do not hire teachers at the top of the guide. If the education profession is so great I don't understand why more of the nay sayers are not applying for jobs. There is a severe teacher shortage in the Math, Science and Technology areas.
waldo Btown - not disagreeing but it's still a tax deferred retirement plan akin to a 401K.
SD I agree with you that public employees started out with comparable benefits to private sector employees and companies gutted benefits because that's what the market would bear to keep and retain employees. Pulic employee contracts need to reflect what's available in the private sector. More taxes and government oversight is not the answer.
Waldo, yes in the sciences and they should make more than a "gym" teacher. Don't tell me there is a shortage of "gym" teachers...
If you read my post I stated there is a shortage of Math, Science and Technology(shop) teachers. There is and over abundance of Gym, History and English teachers.
Skip: I agree at this point it is best to align public and private total compensation packages. But if you believe it's "because that's what the market would bear to keep and retain employees" you've bought the bridge....
Soon...
"You load sixteen tons, what do you get?
Another day older and deeper in debt
Saint Peter don't you call me 'cause I can't go
I owe my soul to the company store"
But it's a free market I tell you, free, free, free at last to live in poverty in the middle class.
Let's bring back coal :>)
But you all don't worry your little pretty heads about the over payment of $1.9 Million
The High school is going to put some of that money good use and do a State of the art Media Center..... So just had to put that out there and then there will be a shortage of teachers for your children, I'm in Hackettstown and my taxes are killing me and for what.
justmy2cents The bottom line is this. How can you justify total public worker compensation beyond what there private sector pays to the taxpayers? (hint, you can't)
Lol - what's more realistic SD? The rest of society going back to collectively bargained levels of benefits or the converse. Ask hostess how unions helped their business
Which taxpayers? I know tax payers that make low mid and upper six figures. Even into seven figures. No teacher makes that much. By your logic, teachers are being paid appropriately then!
Teachers work 20% less days than most. Hourly pay for most is quite high. Summers off are priceless. That is not to say that it is a job for everyone. It surely is not. I have 4 working teachers in my family. God bless them for doing it.
It is unfortunate that people shout about the tax burden, only to face the brickwall of government, administration and unions. Just try listening. A solution can't be found if you stand your ground and defend the current system until your death. And you will die alone. I too will leave NJ. Tick tock, tick tock, where have all the taxpayers gone??
beagiver, not really understanding your comment. Don't really bother explaining, as my comment had nothing to do with salary, in case that was not clear.
Btownguy, the salaries that are easily searched online are accurate for base compensation. What it doesn't include is:
1) An equalization factor for being less than full time employment
2) Cost for healthcare in retirement (nothing paid by employee)
3) Cost for pension not paid by employee
Even if we never get much traction on #1, #2 and #3 are valid. This is how your union "hides" the true compensation. Many teachers make 7 figures when total compensation is considered. Where I work I get an annual statement to the dollar for all of my compensation and a grand total.
When you have free retiree medical and pensions it is difficult to calculate but it can be done. Over time the stated benefits are usually lowballed and then the good ol' taxpayer is on the hook, to at least that is what the legislation that your evil union lawyers did -- the taxpayers are responsible for any underfunding of the pensions; which great men like Christie have fought. Your retiree medical could be stopped this year for all if you didn't corrupt Trenton, legally nothing is stopping its termination. In fact, it is a bargaining point for your unions to negotiate or else...
maja, 20% less? Where do you get your number from? And you're including all of the work done outside of the normal school day hours? Let's see your numbers.
You on a 10 month contract i? Sure hope you don't teach math - and nobody compensates any exempt employee for hours outside of work - I get you are entitled but that's not how the world works
iJay, thanks for thinking I'm a teacher. I'm honored you would think I could be a part of such a wonderful group, but I'm not. Thanks for the compliment.
And thanks for the laughs. Once again, your comprehension skills are lacking. You stated "How can you justify compensation beyond what the private sector pays" and I said that there are people that make much more than teachers in the private sector and therefore according to your logic, teachers are paid appropriately. I can't search private sector salaries online. Nice job trying to change the subject.
And what part time work are you referring to? Teaching is a full time job.
Regarding pension, it's not the teachers fault that past politicians have raided the pension or not held up their side of the bargain.
Please cite proof of your alleged phony accounting.
You make no sense. 10 weeks off in the Summer, that's a 20% discount on a full time job.
Look at this nightmare situation, makes this 1.9 million look small:
https://www.yahoo.com/news/m/de3ffc47-8a42-3460-b114-d97b306d3c9f/ss_h.b.-city-hall%2C-not-calpers%2C.html
Bottom line is that the taxpayers have the right to know what they are on the hook for. When you create pensions and retiree medical the future costs to the taxpayer are unknown and known to be high.
Solution, transition to 401Ks where we can truly balance the books EACH year at a REASONABLE MARKET RATE and cut retiree medical which is a perk we can NO LONGER AFFORD. This is just the truth, you (btownguy) are just a peddler of baloney, trying to defend something which cannot be defended with logic (only emotions which doesn't count)...
Budgets are insanely higher than necessary.
One child sitting at a desk, in a room does NOT cost $30+ per day.
20 children in one classroom =$600+ per day.
1 Teacher makes approximately $45,000 per year.
Do the Math .
WHO is getting screwed over here?!!
Their base is ~50 for a new teacher but you have to factor in the fully burdened rate of benefits payroll taxes etc- there's also infrastructure sunk costs and building maintenance as well as insurance. Support personnel salaries and payroll taxes etc. you can't take one teacher at the low end and divide by the number of students to arrive and anywhere near the cost to run the operation.
Both BA's should be released from their roles immediately as the basis of their jobs is monitoring receipts and expense. They failed and should be held accountable.
Meats Ok, so their solution is to repay. Big question is, where did the $$ go???? The BA's are to be held accountable. More to come.
That question was never answered. I agree that both BOE should be held accountable.
Grandma If you read any information on this, you'd know that the budgets are reviewed by the county education offices before approved. Additionally, the figures for tuition are checked every two or so years. Don't forget to place some blame there.
Instead of trying to blame another layer off excessive public personnel, have fewer layers and more accountability. Man, you are disgusting. You staunchly defend any and all public workers. Do they ever do anything wrong?
iJay, your juvenile and pointless attacks are hilarious. I love watching you grasp at straws. At no point in my comment did I ever defend anyone. I simply stated the parties involved with the process. I guess providing accurate information is "staunchly defending"?
You're cute.
Hackettstown residents were ask to take a survey regarding Hackettstown middle school kids being bus to Great Meadows. Great Meadows residents were ask to take the same survey. It is my understanding both towns chose not to proceed with that option. Mr. Mango ask the BOE in Hackettstown and Great Meadows to ignore the result of the survey and proceed with an independent company to see what it would take to implement his plan. Both towns will have to pay 6,000 for this company to do a fezibility study. How can the BOE be allowed to not listen to what the residents want regarding there children? How are we, the Hackettstown residents, going to pay for this study? How are we, the Hackettstown residents, going to pay for tuition and busing to send our kids to Great Meadows? How are we, the Hackettstown residents going to pay back the 1.9 million we already owe Great Meadows? I am retired and out of the loop but I would like to know if anyone has any answers to these questions? Our taxes are hight enough, should I prepare for a bigger tax bill?
"should I prepare for a bigger tax bill?"
Let me check my magic 8-ball. Answer: most certainly yes. About 4% to be exact.
How can we get Mango OUT?! he obviously does not give a crap about the interests of the parties involved on both sides.
Good question, Lili, but seeing as both Boards of Ed recently extended his contract, it would be difficult.
4%? Anything over 2% exceeds inflation and just takes more and more annually from hard-working taxpayers. We all have a budget, but the schools struggle to work within it because it will lower their ranks and benefits. And if they miss it, "well just have to charge the taxpayers more."
My bad; the legal limit is 2% although can be higher if you add budget for certain items like capital expense I think.
Here's your fun map of increases: http://www.njspotlight.com/stories/17/01/26/interactive-map-where-nj-s-high-property-taxes-are-highest-and-lowest/
Grandma -
Please research and read the background. Tuition and busing the 7th and 8th graders to GMR is CHEAPER than keeping them here and building on to the schools.
Absolutely no one favored the option of adding more space when that option was presented a few years back.
Anyone with a question should attend the next BOE meeting in their district and speak their piece.
I would start checking the pockets of Bordi and Mango and the rest of the board clowns. By the way, isn't Mango the magician moving? Such a bunch of jackass clowns that voted this time sharing garbage in.
Mickey I would suggest to all concerned to attend the GMR B.O.E. meeting on Tuesday, July 20 at 7:00 P.M. These summer meetings are used by the board to discuss/vote on controversial material due to lack of public attendance.Also,why has the board and Mr. Mango not revealed to the public the results of the survey they took that ended at the end of May by posting them on the web site??? Could they possibly have received results that they did not agree with? If you read Grandmas post above, it would seem that is highly likely.
Correction, The GMR B.O.E.Meeting is Tuesday July18 at 7:00P.M. at the middle school.
In other research into school budgets I came across fascinating information how "adequate budgets" are calculated for the purpose of state equalization aid. Regarding the 1.9m overpayments, was there ever a detailed accounting of how this came about released? Also, is there any way of finding out how they are calculating the cross-district tuition costs? I'd be very interested in how they are accounting for differences in equalization aid between the districts based on the demographics.
brendan Brendan,the $1,987,000 over payment was never explained. What was explained was how they arrive at the payment that is suppose to be made each year,which ,by the way,is suppose to be released in February. What was not explained was how this payment (aprox. $500,000 each year) was conveniently not made,nor why it took nearly 2 years after the last over payment to figure this out,nor whom, why and how this was found out. Tonight's meeting (1/23/18 7:00 P.M. GMR middle school) they will be moving some /all of the first $500,000 payment that Hackettstown paid.to some project(s)?. The tax payer will be seeing none of this payment. You will also want to read Mr. Hespe's report on the GMR web site which does get into the financial aspects of the merger. I urge you to read Page 51 carefully and to read some of the comments listed above and to read the the other post about this (GMR Regionalazation).
Great news for those of you that have not heard. Hackettstown B.O.E. has postponed consideration of this merger to the indefinite future. What a relief. This was a disaster in the making. Thank the heavens it is over!
"Brendan,the $1,987,000 over payment was never explained."
I don't know Hammer; sure seems like they explained it pretty well. May not like the process, but complain to Trenton......I believe, as I am sure you very well know, it is their process for tuition payments between school systems.
From a 3/28/17 meeting that I am sure you were at. If you haven't gotten your additional questions answered over the following 10 months......not sure the BOE is to blame... https://www.gmrsd.com/site/default.aspx?PageType=3&DomainID=1&ModuleInstanceID=281&ViewID=6446EE88-D30C-497E-9316-3F8874B3E108&RenderLoc=0&FlexDataID=1952&PageID=1
Hackettstown will be getting an additional $1 million dollars in state aid. Great Meadows gets a decrease. Maybe now Hackettstown can reimburse you.
https://www.nj.com/education/2018/07/nj_school_funding_final_state_aid_2018-19.html#incart_river_mobile_index
i'll admit it, i lost track of this. did independence get it's $2m back? was it eventually a refund? did the school fees go down for the next 5 years? how were independence tax payers reimbursed?
Call the Hackettstown Board Office (908-852-2800),ask for the Business Administrator and get the "real" answer. Do me a favor, after you get the "real" information please post it here on this thread.
Thanks,
Mike Herbst
Mike Herbst Slime balls, the way they treat the employees is worse.. and after all this he still gets his big bonus,
I could think of another swamp that needs to be drained.
tiger parent This is why I moved the hell out of Hackettstown to VA.Just reading this is so funny like you can change it.Well you cant.
Mathew 2121 Mathew,that is all you can do, is move out of this state. The entire system is geared to extracting ever more taxes to feed the educational establishment. For those of you that care,GMR had their budget meeting last night (on line only) I believe we got whacked again for the full 2% increase despite another drop in enrollment. To disgusted to care, the only solution is to move out like you did.
Are we still required to pay our property taxes on time because of all this? Also like some insurance companies, will we be reimbursed for unused taxes, I'm pretty sure the budget for the schools wasn't met as they were closed for almost half the year. No word on these issues.
The Gov’ mention property taxes are delayed a month, I’m sure you can find details on line.
Roywhite So going back to the original subject of this thread, what ever happened to the $1.9 million?
D-ManPV The 1.9 million was absorbed back into the budgets and into surplus, and then they raised the taxes to the maximum. No thought for the taxpayers.
The sending district formula for paying for our out of district students is a perfectly constructed slush fund for the education system to hide money when you do not need it and take it back when you do need it. Rosie's explanation is simple but spot on but the details are oh so infuriating (as a tax payer). An example is,all of our tax bills were over paid for those years and each and every one of those years to the present(8years and growing) we have been hit with a 2% increase(compounded) on money we never should have paid in the first place.
Of course one might say that schools fought so hard to cut costs, saving a little money each year for a rainy day and now it’s pouring ;-).
In reality, I think there’s more to the story than simple theft. And as I remind you always, education comes with a price and the NJ public education system is one of the best in America. I never hear foljs say they can cut costs while improving quality. Matter of fact, same folks don’t mention quality at all.
SD, there are no blanket open checkbooks or all of the "requests" will cancel each other out. Only true imminent life and death situations, such as COVID-19, can avoid such scrutiny. Again, budgets are needed by all or chaos ensues...
Hard to disagree with that.
Likewise, artificial arbitrary mandatory budget caps sort of preclude the need for a yearly budget. Especially a 2% cap in a 3% inflation world.
Tell you what; here’s the yearly budget for the next 10 years. 2% increase across the board in every line item, every year. And in 10 years; I promise a 10% average cost cut over the ten years, about 1% per year.
Ain’t math grand.
Property taxes are the wrong place to tax. Many folks don't own property although you could argue that it is passed on but to a smaller extent in clustered housing.
It is very legacy to tax property. A VAT tax, raise current taxes to 15% and cut property taxes to the bone (maybe 4x lower), is more fair.
Fairness is a point of view but unions and special interest groups should not be dictating anything. Again, look mat what Canada is doing and implement here.
You mean the Canadian System of funding via property taxes at the provincial level; that’s your recommendation?
Again, got my vote.
But it’s still property taxes.
And every renter or homeowner pays property taxes. Even illegals.
But you see VAT and income taxes as fairer? What’s the V stand for? On this one I have to disagree. Being old, I neither have V purchases or income although I make a fair amount of money and have a nice property. Can’t imagine you want to leave me out, certainly not more fair.
Over the last 22 years our enrollment has decreased by 501 students. That is a 45% drop and yet we have approximately the same amount of teachers and aids now as we had then. As long as people have no say in the budget the BOE will continue to raise taxes and continue on as if nothing has changed.
A few years ago they hired a consultant to assess our options. He said they could save about 800,000 by mothballing Liberty school. A year or two ago they did close Liberty but they didn't save 800,000. They saved only about 300,000. That's because they simply transferred all employees from there to Great Meadows. Our BOE needs to start adjusting to what the real needs of our district are and find ways to reduce the tax burden.
OnTheEdge The middle school certainly has less teachers than in 2012. It ranks in the top third to top quarter of NJ schools. NJ schools rank number 1 or 2 in America which puts this school pretty high up in rank against American schools. Many of the better NJ schools pay higher property taxes. I think better educated kids do better in life. Maybe we need to pay higher property taxes and get better results than we have today. I think it would be nice to have the top schools in the top education system in America. Sure beats being last.
"Maybe we need to pay higher property taxes and get better results than we have today."
Bwahhaaaaa. How about you pay the 200 BILLION you owe to the retirees right now. You have 4 in your family, you need to cough up 400k just to pay your share before you kick off or bolt out of state.
We take checks or cash!
dodgebaaall SD,
It's easy to say we should pay higher taxes when you don't live in our district. You pay less than half of what we pay.
Wow, dball knows my demographics although he doesn’t know finance, budgeting and math.... Rosie knows where I live; that’s just creepy. And I didn’t say should, I said maybe.
I mean you sometimes get what you pay for. NJ does not pay the highest price per pupil for education but our return is a consistent first or second rated education system in the land. But hey, it does not sound like quality matters to some; they just want to spend as little as possible no matter what the cost to our kids future might be.
And sure, refund the retirement fund; but that’s going to be another tax I believe, not property. Not a problem giving my fair share. Especially since I partook in the stealing for 30+ years. Better be quick though, dball calling for me to kick. Nice guy :-(
If you make more money, the taxes won’t look as bad. That’s how I swing :-)
For the last time the money retirees are "owed" is due to crafty unions who negotiated with politicians whose de facto behavior regrading budgets is to "Kick the can down the road". Well, that was nearly 40 years ago and you know what it is going to get kicked further...
Hey SD, Your inflation math is a wee bit off,we have not had 3% inflation for over 15 years.
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