Proposed Abattoir at Stiger Livestock Auction

I am curious as to what folks thoughts are on the proposal? I'm guessing if people did not attend the Land Use Board meeting last month, you may not be aware of the proposal.Also, I guess the 200 foot notice requirement may not include many other properties. They are looking to add a slaughterhouse component on the existing site.

The next discussion looks to be at the Sept 22nd meeting according to the LUB agenda for the next meeting.

a. Livestock Auction Market, App #20-08, Block 41, Lot 24 - Preliminary Major Site Plan/Final Major Site Plan (Applicant requested notice to be carried to the September 22, 2020 Meeting)


Jobs to be created.
Everyone likes more jobs.

callitlikeIseeit callitlikeIseeit
Aug '20

Agreed jobs jobs jobs and fresh meat!


Can't be any worse than Ceitner farms.


With a slaughterhouse in Hackettstown, you're also going to get more horrible smells and stink, more smelly manure, more noise from the animals, and bad energy from fearful animals soon to be killed. Not as nice as it seems.


Horrible! If half the people who are meat saw what the truth is regarding slaughterhouses and the abuse the animals go through you would become a vegetarian.

Mrs803 Mrs803
Aug '20

Agreed!!

Martha Martha
Aug '20

Bad energy to be nearby!


It’s a good thing!! Jobs fresh meat and more taxes paid to the town.. We need this!!


I looked on the town website for some details and don't see anything. I recall from the last LUB meeting only some of the details. I don't think this will be a very large processing facility if I recall correctly.


Disgusting. Create jobs in another way.
Nobody wants this in this middle of town.

rhubarab333 rhubarab333
Aug '20

Completely agree with you @rhubarab333! We don't need that right here.

Somechick1 Somechick1
Aug '20

PETA will be all over this place in a NY minute. Hackettstown will be getting bad press if this happens! Where will the blood and waste run off too? Residents backyards? Another stream in a Hackettstown? Absolutely disgusting they are proposing a health hazard.

pampurr1 pampurr1
Aug '20

Someone needs to research this thoroughly. There are more important impacts on a town that need to be taken into consideration. Wouldn’t want it in my town!

Spring fever Spring fever
Aug '20

Who would that be...? They closed the last horse slaughter plant in the US in 2007. They are illegal. What kind of animal slaughterhouse are they proposing in a Hackettstown? Did anyone do the any research? Doubt it.

pampurr1 pampurr1
Aug '20

Aren’t there a number of these in the area to serve the different farmers markets selling meats? Just wonder if there’s a nearby example. .

Strangerdanger Strangerdanger
Aug '20

Completely revolting. People in the know - please keep us posted.


The Auction House is looking to turn one of their buildings into an animal processing facility. Animal processing facility is not a permitted us in the Town's LM district so they are seeking a use variance. Their application was deemed incomplete at the July meeting and have asked to postpone until the Sept meeting to come back and have their application deemed complete. Once it is deemed complete they will have public meetings. I, as always, encourage anyone from the public that has concerns regarding an application to attend the LUB meetings to voice those concerns.

Not sure if our Sept meeting will be in person or via zoom or a combination yet.

Jim L Jim L
Aug '20

Seems to me that if zoning allows for this use, should be approved.
Not a pleasant prospect having to drive by it all the time, will probably change my route if it becomes a reality.
Now, all of the units behind the Pharmacy-that’s another story.
Way, way to many units.
Any board members that approved that variance should be removed.

Stymie Stymie
Aug '20

More jobs ? How many jobs will this create? 10 ?20 ?
The idea of putting it here is pure BS.....
This is a nice college town and it should be kept that way.


If you eat meat, you cannot complain. Most of your great grandparents and beyond were farmers. What did you think they did with their animals?

LibertarianismRules LibertarianismRules
Aug '20

If you are in favor of this proposal, I urge you to talk to residents in towns where this already exists. The stench of death, the blood literally running in the streets, dumpsters overloaded with discarded pieces of bodies. No one wants to see this. Certainly no one wants to live near this.

Ahimsa269 Ahimsa269
Aug '20

Jim L thanks for providing more info.


Some back ground information on the topic from the internet

Environmentalintegrity.org
‘Environmental Integrity Project re: Water Pollution From Slaughterhouses

Another Article: Downside of Slaughterhouses ( E-Colli contamination, pollution from animal wastes) Warning...This was very graphic. Not for weak stomachs

Do an on line search for more info.

Spring fever Spring fever
Aug '20

There is sanitary sewer in West Stiger Street that they can connect their process waste to; why would the blood need to be flowing in the street?

This isn't some massive hog farm in rural Arkansas; let's not get overly dramatic about it, lol.

ianimal ianimal
Aug '20

Exactly ianimal.

This doesn’t look like a large scale facility. This proposal seems to be so that the livestock auction can dispatch and butcher the animals sold threw the auction on their property.


Uh....think these things are all around us. Hope, Tranquility (not sure they slaughter, but has to be fairly close at least), Sussex, Newton, Washington, to name a few......

Really depends on the size and the regulations as to any potential dangers. Most of these are really "specialty" shops versus mass consumer operations.

Still a NIMBY for sure, but you got the train tracks, station parking lot and Valentine Street before you get to maybe four or five houses. Pretty sure no one gets the 200 foot notification on this one.

strangerdanger strangerdanger
Aug '20

Only vegetarians have the right to complain.

The rest are complicit.

callitlikeIseeit callitlikeIseeit
Aug '20

Judging by the way the livestock auction maintains their buildings now I would not trust them to run a clean facility or care about the residents around them. that place should be shuttered already. It’s an eyesore to the town. People saying it will create jobs I don’t it will be enough it will be enough to offset the negative impact to the towns image.


I could not disagree more,Tpat. The Livestock Auction site is always neat and clean. Sure the buildings are older but not an eyesore by any stretch. I feel Hackettstown is fortunate to still have a business like this located here. It represents and benefits the heartbeat of our country- the American Farmer. Sure many people prefer to not know or see how foods are brought from the farm or ranch to the table. That is simply their loss and in my opinion ignorance on a certain level. As far as I have seen living here only 30 years, the Livestock Auction has always been a good neighbor and unique asset to our town.

I will add if the proposal is approved, I don't see how a relatively small amount of processing done there will have much if any detrimental impact on the town's image


Britten Road - Green Village NJ (which is technically I believe part of Chatham Township and part of Harding Township) Slaughter house mixed in among average homes to multi-million dollar homes.

JrzyGirl88 JrzyGirl88
Aug '20

Some of you folks are really uneducated when it comes to slaughter. The health implications are enormous. Where is the retention base of blood going to go?The storm drains perhaps? This is a Hackettstown jobs initiative? What a joke? Haha Hackettstown great job and the college kids subjected to this too?

pampurr1 pampurr1
Aug '20

Pampurr, do you really think they throw out anything that can be used or sold? It’s collected, packaged, and sold. Just about everything is used.

Strangerdanger Strangerdanger
Aug '20

Meat lover here.
This is not the right location. Allamuchy, Independence, Liberty, or White Township are more reasonable. Not by restaurants, retail, and breweries.


Strangerdanger, read about the Dallas Crown plant and the Mayor who closed it down. Lots of good info on slaughter houses.

pampurr1 pampurr1
Aug '20

Yes. And there are foul churches too. Does that mean all slaughterhouses are like Dallas? Is the farm in Hope evil? Butchers in Newton, Washington, and Sussex too?

Dallas Crown was a 2007 large volume meat packing plant for horse meat owned by a Belgium Corporation that broke the law. Hardly the same size, scope, or target market of what’s being proposed here. I do not think the plan is to be illegal.

Volume, target market, and regulation can help. I expect low volume, pray for specialty target market and trust in NJ regulations to keep us safe.

Frankly, I would love a nearby outlet for some great steaks. And it’s NIMBY or anyones either, really.

Strangerdanger Strangerdanger
Aug '20

You can’t drain blood into our sewers, was that a serious suggestion? Sigh...


I hope everyone will go and protest this. I can remember a town called Harrison NJ they had a company called Teoball division of swift it smelled the entire town up with rotting like dead meat. That smell after 60 years still sticks with me . Hackettstown will smell.
Maybe you will eat horse meat too. Its sad that the animals are auctioned off in hopes for a better life just to find out its there last ride. There is so much wasted food in markets already Don't let this happen. The value of your property will go down !
animal rights, be their elbow.

tangerine tangerine
Aug '20

Hello, I am interested in those who oppose this to email me with your concerns. IF you are interested in signing a petition please note. IF you live within 200 feet of the proposed land use, please note.
Thank you.
Spetri01
Slaughter Free Hackettstown

Spetri01 Spetri01
Aug '20

Horse Slaughter in the US is illegal by the FEDS. Please sign the petition above. Show up at the meeting! Many many facts about slaughter on the internet. Please post the petition. Thank u. Contact the media. Advocates!

pampurr1 pampurr1
Aug '20

How can anyone sign a petition or even "protest" this proposal without even knowing exactly what the proposal is?? I would think understanding and knowing all of the facts as they are presented in the actual proposal would allow folks to formulate an education opinion on it. Otherwise it all seems like putting the cart before the horse. I asked what folks opinions are however I did state I had little info. I suggest attending the meeting on the 22nd to learn more.


Slaughter Free Hackettstown members will attend meeting on the 22nd to understand and details on the specifics. We will be prepared to take next steps contingent on the outcome of the meeting September 22. Thank you. Spetri01

Spetri01 Spetri01
Aug '20

"How can anyone sign a petition or even "protest" this proposal without even knowing exactly what the proposal is??"

Well Greg, who are you that you can have a solid opinion on this?? Without even knowing exactly what the proposal is, right??

Certainly gives anyone else the right to have an opinion. I certainly can protest this right from the start, and I see many others feel the same way.

happiest girl
Aug '20

Just call it what it is, a slaughterhouse.


It would not impact storm drains and would need and follow NPDES permit conditions for storm runoff.

HMUA could handle the effluent, which would be contained inside and sent through sanitary sewer. They may have to watch their BOD and COD limits, but should be no problem for HMUA.

Odor would only be an issue if the were going to put in rendering operations or an outside clarifier which would not happen based on the scale of facility which could be placed on that property.

Pretty much no impact to that part of town.

Timmy
Aug '20

I have not stated a "solid" opinion on this proposal. I simply point out that protesting something without even remotely knowing the scope of the proposal seems premature and based solely on an emotional response.

I prefer to get the facts from the actual proposal then formulate my opinion on the project. Just as each LUB member has a fiduciary responsibility to do the same. They're required to look at the totality of the proposal and its impact on the town both positive and negative before making any sort of informed decision. As judge Judy would say. " feelings are irrelevant" .


Greg, you certainly have given your opinion here on this thread.
You also, in your opening post on this topic, wrote:

"I am curious as to what folks thoughts are on the proposal."

Seems you don't like the answers you are getting.

happiest girl
Aug '20

The storm drains are a mess every deluge of rain. Who are u kidding. Just look at the Bergen Tool property. The flooding at that place occurred at Rt 46. And my friends business under water. The drains cannot handle even a rain storm.

pampurr1 pampurr1
Aug '20

The auction house does not own any animals they just help facilitate the sale of livestock from 1 farmer to another. That farmer buys the livestock at the auction house and then takes it to a animal processing plant and then takes the meat back to their farm to sell it. So with this proposal they would slaughter the animal here and then still take the meat to their farm to sell. So those that think this will be a place to buy fresh meat are Incorrect as the auction house is just killing the animals that someone else owns. They wouldn’t be selling the meat.

Come to the Sept LUB meeting to get correct information

Jim L Jim L
Aug '20

"The storm drains are a mess every deluge of rain. Who are u kidding. Just look at the Bergen Tool property. The flooding at that place occurred at Rt 46. And my friends business under water. The drains cannot handle even a rain storm."


As Timmy stated above "It would not impact storm drains and would need and follow NPDES permit conditions for storm runoff.

HMUA could handle the effluent, which would be contained inside and sent through sanitary sewer. They may have to watch their BOD and COD limits, but should be no problem for HMUA."

They can't just allow it to run into the streets and pollute the storm drain system. Any fluids or at least most of them would go into the sanitary sewer system. You know, the place where people's solids and liquids go. They are two different systems, though it seems as though a lot of folks may not be aware of that.

I'm not trying to state support or opposition to the project, only to make sure that people are debating on the basis of the facts, rather than the supposition that the storm drains and sanitary sewer system are one in the same. Of course if there is several feet of water flooding the area, water may be forced into the sanitary sewer system and make it back up and flow into the streets, but that's highly unlikely here.

Phil D. Phil D.
Aug '20

Too bad about the availability of steaks. Guess you need some aging anyway. Oh well.

Strangerdanger Strangerdanger
Aug '20

Phil D., chances are that if we were having such a deluge necessary to cause flooding to such a scale, there wouldn't be an auction that resulted in having any animals needing to be processed. But as you also mentioned, I would be far more concerned, in that unlikely event, of all the human feces flooding the streets, rather than animal blood...

ianimal ianimal
Aug '20

Ian

"I would be far more concerned, in that unlikely event, of all the human feces flooding the streets, rather than animal blood..." Me too, for sure!

Of course you're correct about that much flooding putting a stop to such things as animal auctions as well! Just trying to illustrate that people's fears regarding blood in the streets, storm drains and thereby, the rivers and other waterways are unfounded.

Phil D. Phil D.
Aug '20

Small site. Curious if it intends to be a halal slaughterhouse. That would be even more horrible.
Frankly, I am very disturbed by any kind of slaughterhouse nearby.

Bunny Bunny
Aug '20

It will bring our home values down.

pampurr1 pampurr1
Aug '20

"Small site. Curious if it intends to be a halal slaughterhouse. That would be even more horrible"

Why Bunny? Because it would be a small operation, or because it's "Halal"?

"Frankly, I am very disturbed by any kind of slaughterhouse nearby." - now that, I understand, but I don't see why you'd mention a Halal one. If it isn't "done correctly", yes, it could be an issue, especially with a small operation. Both Halal and Kosher slaughter, while seemingly barbaric due to the throat cutting involved can be a humane way to do it, at least according to Dr. Temple Grandin, who has been the one to push for a cleanup and overhaul of the way things have been done before in order to be more humane in the way we treat the animals that are going to end up on our plate.

https://www.vice.com/en_us/article/d75mea/halal-slaughter-is-more-complicated-than-you-realize

Phil D. Phil D.
Aug '20

Right. I am opposed to any slaughterhouse in Hackettstown.

Stunning an animal before being slaughtered is more humane.

Slitting the jugular and cutting through the windpipe of a fully conscious animal so it bleeds out is horribly cruel.

At least that's how I feel.

Bunny Bunny
Aug '20

Bunny

Some do stun the animal before slitting its throat, but as the article states, done correctly with a sharp knife, the animal is unaware of the cutting and it losses consciousness within about 2 seconds. It's actually a relatively humane way of doing it. It's not like wringing a chicken's neck.

Phil D. Phil D.
Aug '20

Bunny, are you opposed to kosher slaughter, too, or just halal? They are essentially the same, you know.

LibertarianismRules LibertarianismRules
Aug '20

My Mother always said that the only thing wasted when they butchered a pig was the curl of its tail. At any garden retailer we can find bags of bone and blood meal which comes from slaughtering animals. I am sure that the proposed facility will be modern and any waste managed. Our hospital flushes all of their blood down the drain and being a former employee I can tell you that it is quite a lot. If we are to continue to be a meat eating nation then we must understand where that meat comes from. It is not all happy meals and smiling clowns.

Robert J Rowe Robert J Rowe
Aug '20

Such ignorance is a surprise, I would have thought folks would have done at least some minimal research before some of the comment made.

When are you going to protest the supermarkets for purchasing slaughtered food ??

steven steven
Aug '20

https://www.nj.gov/njhighlands/njhighlands/warren_county/hackettstown/2108_SM04_091208.pdf

According to this document, no slaughterhouse operations are allowed in our district (Page 400-19, #13.) This is something we need to strongly push back against and unless this document has been changed since its latest revision in 2007, they are not allowed to do this horrible act

Michael R Michael R
Aug '20

It would be extremely short sighted to do this if the rational is to create around 10 jobs, not worth all the other negative effects

Michael R Michael R
Aug '20

So when is the town meeting on this subject matter?

Bernie Bernie
Aug '20

Question for all the people against this. Are you all vegetarians or is it ok to eat meat as long as it’s not killed in my backyard?

CraftBeerBob CraftBeerBob
Aug '20

Thats kinda like telling the people who opposed the quickchek gas station on mountain ave...they could only oppose it if you rode mass transit or ride a bike or take an electric car to work..because they used gas...kinda of a silly argument

Bug3
Aug '20

According to what Michael R, posted; they will need a variance so you should have a chance to stop. Bring facts, not emotions.

Strangerdanger Strangerdanger
Aug '20

A post from a few days ago:

The Auction House is looking to turn one of their buildings into an animal processing facility. Animal processing facility is not a permitted us in the Town's LM district so they are seeking a use variance. Their application was deemed incomplete at the July meeting and have asked to postpone until the Sept meeting to come back and have their application deemed complete. Once it is deemed complete they will have public meetings. I, as always, encourage anyone from the public that has concerns regarding an application to attend the LUB meetings to voice those concerns.

Not sure if our Sept meeting will be in person or via zoom or a combination yet.
Jim L.


So close to the college, train station, residential Grand Avenue. Our home values will plummet. Imagine sitting at the brewery with the stench of death wafting in the air. How awful.

pampurr1 pampurr1
Aug '20

Bug - it was half sarcasm. But the reality is myself included are a society of “not in my backyard people”

CraftBeerBob CraftBeerBob
Aug '20

Why wouldn’t a sane person be NIMBY about this? How about WIFM? Absolutely nothing. A few jobs, probably not even much of a ratable.

While I have no issue, I can easily understand those that do and find NIMBY to be completely acceptable in this case. This is truly just a slaughterhouse; we don’t even get a meat market. They have been getting along without one for decades.

Not sure I can see a compelling reason for a variance and plenty of reasons, like the ones Hackettstown used to write the zoning statute against slaughterhouses, to stick to the ordinance, as written. Beyond the unsavory PR aspects, there will always be the possibility of smells, effluents, animal maltreatments, etc. Not saying it will happen, just saying why take the risk given the reward. Follow the statute. No variance.

Strangerdanger Strangerdanger
Aug '20

Chances are that Hackettstown didn't write an ordinance strictly prohibiting slaughterhouses (although they may have), but zoning district ordinances list uses that are expressly permitted and sometimes allow specific "conditional uses" that must meet certain enhanced standards that permitted uses don't need to meet.

Any other proposed uses within that district require a d(1) use variance in accordance with the Municipal Land Use Law (MLUL).

ianimal ianimal
Aug '20

actually ianimal we did:

408 “LM” LIMITED MANUFACTURING....
13. Livestock Auctions, provided that no slaughterhouse operations are included
and provided that animals are not kept on site for in excess of seven (7) days.

https://www.hackettstown.net/sites/g/files/vyhlif646/f/uploads/2019_land_development_ordinance_updated.pdf

Jim L Jim L
Aug '20

Well, then it will definitely be that much more difficult to get them to convince 5 out of 7 Board members to vote in favor of it...

ianimal ianimal
Aug '20

It should be Iman, it should be. Given the town ordinance specifically links slaughter/auction activities together, it really looks like the town fathers who wrote this clause were thinking of this exact site. I am guessing this is not the first time this subject has been brought to the town. I am sure the town fathers had a good reason to specify this in the manner that they did when they did it. While a number of NJ towns n town ships restrict slaughterhouses in commercial or even agricultural areas, at first glance, this does not seem to be boilerplate. And it is linked specifically to auction house activities.

Since this seems written with one site in mind, at minimum, today's town fathers should be able to explain why they would ever go against a precedent that seems to be specifically written to the auction house.

strangerdanger strangerdanger
Aug '20

The Town's Land Development Ordinance was adopted by the town on 8/9/1999 and has been udated/modified since. However its not like it was written by the town's "fathers" 150 years ago. Clearly in 1999 this particular site was the reason for this specific language.

Jim L Jim L
Aug '20

However.....I used the term, town father, correctly. Both times. Also earlier I noted decades, not centuries. I believe you are thinking founding father, which, in our case, probably included a number of Slaughterers.

But hey, thanks and think we agree, looks special and specified to this site.

Strangerdanger Strangerdanger
Aug '20

I don't believe Hackettstown Life website existed until 2007.


my point is we don't need to speculate with "it really looks like the town fathers who wrote this clause were thinking of this exact site.:"

they clearly wrote it into the 1999 LDO with this specific site in mind. no need to speculate or guess.

Jim L Jim L
Aug '20

Great point! Sure makes a variance seem difficult unless something major had changed.

Strangerdanger Strangerdanger
Aug '20

Oh duh- I was thinking website not the Auction site. Short trip I'm back.... LOL


Blood in the streets and death stench in the air are reality, not “overly dramatic”. There are small killing operations in Trenton and Newark; go spend one morning outside and you will see and smell reality. These are not Big Ag facilities. If you want recent photos instead, message me.

Ahimsa269 Ahimsa269
Aug '20

I take it we can expect you at the meeting then? With pictures?

strangerdanger strangerdanger
Aug '20

Trenton and Newark, probably not coincidentally, are two of the 21 municipalities around the State that have "combined sewer systems", which means that their sanitary sewage and storm drains are connected and all flow to their respective wastewater treatment plants.

What is permitted there has no bearing on how an operation will be required to behave in Hackettstown, which has a municipal separate storm sewer system (MS4) and a discrete sanitary sewer system operated by HMUA.

ianimal ianimal
Aug '20

Ahimsa269,

It's obvious from the name you picked that you don't eat meat and are deeply committed to the precept of "causing no harm". However, this is a personal choice and in no way gives you permission to attempt to force your belief and choices on other people. Modern abattoirs are not anything like what you read about in high school when they made you read Upton Sinclair's "The Jungle".

Before you make inflammatory statements like "blood running down the streets" and "death stench in the air", you should dismiss your preconceptions and actually visit a modern facility.

Bemused Bemused
Aug '20

Well, there is this

Drone plane spots a river of blood flowing from the back of a Dallas meat packing plant.

https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2091159/A-drone-plane-spots-river-blood-flowing-Dallas-meat-packing-plant.html

dodgebaal dodgebaal
Aug '20

Call it what it is, not some fancy French name. It’s a slaughterhouse. Educate yourself. Read about Dallas Crown Slaughterhouse. Have you been to a modern slaughterhouse? Let’s’ hear your facts.

pampurr1 pampurr1
Aug '20

Whoever is not in favor of this should contact EACH LUB member and voice your concerns and also attend the meeting.

Richie
Aug '20

Pampurr1,

I'm a farm boy, I have no misconceptions or delusions about where my food comes from. Never allow yourself to believe that heat comes from the furnace and breakfast from the refrigerator.

And yes, I've been to a modern slaughterhouse, even worked in one 40 years ago. It's not glamorous, it's hard work, it's messy, but its also necessary to feed the country. I'm sorry it doesn't fit into your protected little world, but it's reality.

Bemused Bemused
Aug '20

We just moved to Hackettstown and absolutely love the area, we can walk around, people are so nice and we'd love to start a family here. However, having just heard that a slaughterhouse is being proposed is absurd. Take into consideration two things: the smell (noise as well) and the towns population.

If you can smell the chocolate being made from M&M's , what do you think the smell will be like if this slaughterhouse happens?

Hackettstown would start to dwindle down into a ghost town. People will move out and then that will affect all these stores/cafes/restaurants in this area. It's bad enough COVID has affected many businesses but to add this, there will be nothing. Not to mention this beautiful college that is here- you think students will even consider going to this school after finding out there's a slaughterhouse? My guess would be no.

I understand people need to eat in this country, and some people are mentioning modern slaughterhouses, clearly they have not seen this building. It's already falling apart, and i'll tell you what, definitely not "modern", not to mention it's a HUGE eye sore. No matter how you look at it, a slaughterhouse is a slaughterhouse, modern or not.

This is a small beautiful town, lets keep it that way. People want to breath fresh air and walk around and eat outside and not have to smell dead animals.

Keep Hackettstown the way it is, why fix something that isn't broken?


Eva, have you emailed the LUB members and are you planning on attending the meeting?

Richie
Aug '20

I agree. Given the law, given the precedent, I would think if you bring facts to the table, leave the emotions at home, citizens should be able to prevail on this one. It’s not like these guys will have WaWa, CVS, or QuickChek lawyers......

While it doesn’t bother me, nimby, there’s a stigma to this endeavor and having our town gem of Centenary in close proximity should give them pause to consider.

But citizens have to attend the meeting.

Strangerdanger Strangerdanger
Aug '20

If said slaughterhouse had an attached retail butcher open to public for purchase of fresh meat would the opinion change?

CraftBeerBob CraftBeerBob
Aug '20

Re: Proposed Abattoir at Stiger Livestock Auction

Let's make one thing very clear and there is science and data to back this up:

Meat and dairy are NOT necessary to feed our people. Meat and dairy from a health/nutritional perspective is not nutritionally necessary and in consumption of is strongly linked to a multitude of health issues: prostate cancer, colorectal cancer, diabetes, cardiovascular diseases, etc. The AMA has just released a press statement to the USDA Food and Nutrition Services, Center for Nutrition and Food Policy stating that meat and dairy should be OPTIONAL on the proposed 2020-2025 USDA nutrition guidelines. They state meat and dairy are NOT nutritionally necessary and are strongly linked to cancers, cardiovascular diseases, etc.

So the statements made by some people on this forum that we need to feed our people with meat and dairy is grossly misinformed. Our health, our planet and many lives would be saved if people would practice eating a plant based diet. Science does not lie.

Spetri01 Spetri01
Aug '20

I'll give up my steaks when you pry my cold dead fingers off my fork.

Bemused Bemused
Aug '20

Perhaps your best defense in all of this would be to stop using references to a Horse Slaughter Facility that closed in 2007 (13 years ago) and start getting more up to date facts and data.

Dallas Crown, while having a multitude of violations against them, was ultimately forced to close because the USDA Inspection funding was pulled for human consumption of equines. Consumption of horse meat, is not illegal in the US, there is currently a ban on it, a bill that has been introduced several times is currently in front of Livestock and Foreign Agriculture Commission.

Dallas Crown is not a similar type facility in any way, shape or form and is just a bad example to use.

If this were my fight, I would start by filing a FOIA/OPRA request with the USDA for all compliance records including plant sanitation records, and animal mishandling records for all plants in New Jersey, when doing your research be sure to include Poultry facilities as well as Meat these fall under two different inspections.

I would be most interested in plants that operate in residential areas, and would file FOIA/OPRA request with the towns and counties to see if any complaints have been filed there.

Go talk to neighbors of similar facilities in towns, get their opinions on what problems they have or haven't had.

SD is 100% right, take your emotions out of it. Get your neighbors on board, get the FACTS together that you need, present a strong unified front at the LUB meeting.

JrzyGirl88 JrzyGirl88
Aug '20

Please keep in mind the animals that are sold at the auction house will still be slaughtered for their meat. This is just a debate on whether the town residents want that slughter to take place here in town or elsewhere. Debating the need to slaughter/ eat meat should not really be the focus of the LUB meeting.

Jim L Jim L
Aug '20

You bring up a good point Jim. For decades, this company has opted to send animals elsewhere for slaughter. Why now, why the change, wifm? Additionally, the town has specifically written a law for this specific site for bidding animal slaughter. Why issue a variance for such a unique, specific, targeted ordinance?

Citizens should bring up potential negatives to such an operation including just the bad vibe such a business has. Especially next to our town gem of Centenary. A bad smell could ruin them in a semester. I also think bringing up the ill health aspects of red meat, combined with the declining American market is not out of bounds. Like investing in a cigarette factory, not exactly a growth industry, even if still large. And where might it lead; cows today, poultry tomorrow? Perhaps not a great toe to stick in the water since in for a peck, in for a pound.

Sure, keep the emotions out of it. But should be no issue stating AMA and CDC medical and scientific facts re red meat. The fact that I like a good steak does not mean the steak is good for me. Legal yes. But the slaughter house is not legal under our law and there is no compelling reason to change a law they have lived with for decades.

Strangerdanger Strangerdanger
Aug '20

For anyone interested in signing a petition that was started by a Hackettstown resident here you go...

http://chng.it/n2nc6LFjqg

In other news--
"Slaughter Free Hackettstown" is a chapter in the making, that is organizing to fight this slaughterhouse from opening. We know the auction house is losing money and needs another way to stay operating. Our goal is to knock out the slaughterhouse proposal ,then the auction house should just fall to the wayside.

Eating animals is slowly but surely becoming a thing of the past. Plant based farming and eating is here and is the future.

There will petition released shortly by our chapter. Going vegan will save lives, save the planet.

For more information on what Slaughter Free Cities are about, check out
https://slaughterfreechicago.com/

This will be coming to Hackettstown very soon. We are working with the lead organizer of the organization and have contact with their attorney. We are prepared and ready to fight this to the end. Strap yourselves in Hackettstown, get ready for a ride.

Spetri01 Spetri01
Aug '20

How much money did they lose and how do you know? Always seems well attended. Not exactly a fact in your favor fyi...

Where can we find those videos, sounds compelling.

Strangerdanger Strangerdanger
Aug '20

Spetri01 -

What a noble cause - knocking out a local business and good neighbor that's been here for decades just because you personally don't approve of meat. What next - Chase out McDonald's, Churrascaria Rodizio, All the deli's (Piggy's name is offensive!)?

That's an industrial section of town buffered on all sides by the Railroad, Open Space and other businesses. Diversifying their operation is a smart move.

No one is going to allow an operation unless it can be proven to be properly run and maintained. Look at the hoops Mars had to jump through just to build a trailer parking lot.

This town needs to do more to help businesses, and if they present a reasonable request, it should be considered.

Barnacle Bill
Aug '20

BBill; now, now, diversity of thought is what makes America great. Plus, it is a variance. The law, as written, says NO.

Hoewever, from a one time poster, starting a petition where anyone from anywhere can sign up from anywhere is probably not going to mean much. The scare info without sources is not to persuasive either. Will wait until you provide that.

Probably need Htown names and addresses to be meaningful.

Strangerdanger Strangerdanger
Aug '20

Actually, the media need to be contacted as well.

pampurr1 pampurr1
Aug '20

Slaughter Free Hackettstown will be peacefully assembling tomorrow 1115am at Stiger and Main Streets. Anyone in opposition to the slaughterhouse is welcome to come and join us. There will be two media outlets coming to report our demonstration they will interview and report on this issue.
***Residents of Hackettstown****, this is an opportunity for you to have your voices heard against the proposed slaughterhouse in your town.

Sergeat Tynan of Hackettstown PD is aware and we are all good to go.

Spetri01 Spetri01
Aug '20

Spetri01 -- can you add this to the Hackettstown Life Calendar.

happiest girl
Aug '20

Isn't it very convenient that the peaceful assembly (just call it a protest) is happening on a Tuesday at 11:15 in the morning when most of the people that would like to support new businesses actually have to go to work. I can not afford to just sit home and protest every little thing that makes me upset. God forbid that we add something to our town that one or two people don't agree with and they have the time to sit outside and protest while the rest of us go to work.

I am sorry that these sort of things bother you but you might want to take a good hard look at where your food will come from when you chase out all the farmers. It will be made in a lab somewhere and good luck putting all those chemicals into your body.


I'm sure all of the farmers and such attending the weekly Tuesday auction will appreciate the protest. I assume that's why it was set up for that time. I agree most folks will be hard at work at that hour.


Farmers deserve our respect. It would be good for the peaceful assemblers to realize that many of the farmer's who attend the livestock market on Tuesday have not requested this change. They simply need somewhere nearby to sell animals they don't need. Otherwise they need to pay for or invest gas and time to truck the animals to a market in PA.

Some may even be there to buy or sell eggs or hay, not meat animals.

Farmers who sell livestock realize the animals will probably be slaughtered but as the sellers, they don't have input as to where this will happen.

hktownie hktownie
Aug '20

"Eating animals is slowly but surely becoming a thing of the past. Plant based farming and eating is here and is the future."

If you could stop assuming you speak for everyone and not protest on my behalf, that'd be great.

You don't want to eat meat? Great! That's your choice and you are free to make it.

As for my choice, I like my steaks rare.

The_Bishop The_Bishop
Aug '20

I agree htownie.

I maintain it's not clear to me how a protest can be organized opposing something if the entire scope of the proposal has not been discussed and circulated among the protesters and other people. It appears as if someone heard the word slaughter house and that was it. Without the actual facts it seems a bit premature to shoot from the hip based entirely on an emotional response or simply because one may be a vegetarian.

Even though I attended the Zoom LUB meeting when it was discussed, I am not entirely sure what the proposal consists of. I have not gone to the municipal building to view the plans. I'm not sure it is open yet to do so. Therefore I can't make an informed decision on the pros and cons of the proposal until all the facts are ascertained. No one can.,


The FAO (Food and Agricultural Organization of The United States) says slaughterhouses should not be in residential areas.
It's really a no brainer.

http://fao.org/3/x6557e/X6557E02.htm

happiest girl
Aug '20

This has nothing to do with whether you eat meat or not. It has to do with the health concerns of those of us who are in close proximity to the Livestock Auction. For the past 25 years I have lived in close proximity to this nightmare of a filthy smelly mess. They can barely take care of what they have there and they are talking about taking on a slaughterhouse! Let’s not forget to mention their neglect in the amount of animals that constantly escape. On a good summertime Tuesday it’s hard to sit on my deck and listen to the farmers beat those animals smell the manure!!!! I’m sure if this was approved they would use the most hygienic methods of disposing of the blood, guts and remains. Call it not in my backyard but there are better more rural areas to build a slaughterhouse. Oh yes, I do love meat, pork , and other meats. Hackettstown has fought hard in the past years to have a great image, the breweries, restaurants and a beautiful College. Please don’t let this happen to our town.


"The FAO (Food and Agricultural Organization of The United States)"

That is NOT what the "FAO" is. The Food and Agriculture Organization (FAO) is a specialized agency of the United Nations that leads international efforts to defeat hunger.

It is NOT affiliated with any portion of the United states government. The United States is simply a member of the organization. It's suggested guidelines do not apply as law in this country.


http://www.fao.org/about/en/


"It's suggested guidelines do not apply as law in this country"

Law or not, the FAO is an exemplary agency that coordinates the efforts of governments in various programs.

On the other hand, lets talk about the Livestock Co-op.

The Livestock Co-op Auction is asking for a VARIANCE to run a slaughterhouse -- even thought it is NOT an allowed usage and they already do NOT meet the requirements.
They are also asking for a waiver to allow them NOT to provide an Environmental Impact Statement, a Highlands Consistency Determination, and to NOT release any information on the number of shifts to be worked, the maximum number of employees, and the hours of operation!!

This begs the question, WHY???

In addition, this application was quietly submitted without proper notification.
The classification of the facility would be a WET MARKET.
Property values will go down without a doubt.

Additionally, this property is already part of the WETLANDS and will require permission from the NJDEP.

So, I respect and put my trust in the FAO, not the cagey and elusive Livestock Co-op Auction.

happiest girl
Aug '20

"For the past 25 years I have lived in close proximity to this nightmare of a filthy smelly mess."
The Market was started in 1941. Why did you buy near this "smelly" mess? Kinda like buying a house at the end of a runway, then complaining about airplanes or buying a house next to train tracks and complaining about trains. I for one would rather see animals processed here in the US rather than ship them to China for processing. By the way, not much is left after they process the animals. Blood goes for Organic plant food as does the bones for Bone Meal used for crops, flowers and such. Hides for leather, Car seats, the other leather items.

That said, I will find out what they want to do first, then make my decision.

I also received a thing about a petition from Chang.org, I will NEVER sign anything they are associated with no matter how "good" it sounds. They will hound you for Money/Donations and try to tell you who to vote for. It took me a year and a half to get them off my back and out of my computer

Mr 4paws Mr 4paws
Aug '20

Sure, times change and laws need to be adjusted. However, a variance should be a very rare thing. A slaughterhouse in the middle of a quaint, residential town doesn't seem like the time to approve a variance. There are plenty of farms on the way out of town that might like to host the business if there is that much demand.

maja2 maja2
Aug '20

Apparently, if a farmer buys livestock for beef, these are the places they're currently given to take the animals (or have them taken) for slaughter (as per link on their website).:

http://nebula.wsimg.com/b93006bfac2f56303b15d12c5ec776a7?AccessKeyId=25B768E67B5A7A4BF5D6&disposition=0&alloworigin=1

I understand how they'd like to expand their services to be able to offer same site operations to make it easier for the people buying, but also realize that the Town Council must have had reasons behind their limitations on hosting this kind of operation on the site, insofar as how to make sure things didn't get "out of hand" so to speak and "process" animals not sold here, etc.

Phil D. Phil D.
Aug '20

Hey Mr 4paws you missed my point. 25+ years I’ve lived in my home the Livestock auction has been a lousy neighbor with just sales of animals. Now they want to be a slaughterhouse/wet market. How do you think that’s going to go? Anyway, where do you live? I don’t need anymore information as this is what the Livestock Auction Market is requesting from the town.


Since 1941, the livestock auction has existed without onsite slaughter.

There is a law written specifically to that site against on site slaughter.

If HG is right, there is a lot that is very disconcerting about the requested variance, even in the best light.

There are no residential advantages to this, only disadvantage.

The town has specifically written ordinance basically saying there is no commercial value of this to the town.

Even though I love meat, there is no wifm for me here, and I can understand how the closer you are, the worse this gets including the possible devaluing of real estate and even businesses like the university.

Beyond the emotional issues, I see every argument against the variance as valid and very little compelling counter-reasons for a variance. The business has run since 1941 without it; if struggling now, let it find another way to prosper. We have lots of prosperous agro businesses without slaughter. There are successful models everywhere.

Strangerdanger Strangerdanger
Aug '20

Isn't there enough open land in Great Meadows, Mansfield, Allamuchy, Independence to put a slaughter house there instead of the middle of town? Just seems silly putting a slaughter house front and center.

englishe30 englishe30
Aug '20

MAM -

Again, you bought that house knowing the Auction was there, so caveat emptor prevails.

A quick check of Google earth shows no homes within 300 ft of that building, and only 2 within 350ft, separated by the railroad, parking lot and trees. Where do you live?

Let them present their proposal before breaking out the torches and pitchforks.

Barnacle Bill
Aug '20

If I was running a business like Centenary College, the train station, anything on Stiger, I would be breaking out the nimby wands.

Would have to be lined in gold cause there ain’t no beautification justifications here.

And what possibly beyond gold could the town be getting for giving a variance? Not even a WAWA, chocolates, CVS or Qickchek even. Just blood n guts waiting for a spill.....or wet market worse.

Strangerdanger Strangerdanger
Aug '20

BB I guess you told me! LOL. Not. All you need to know is I’m close enough to hear it all on Tuesdays, smell it and ride by and see it. I can deal with the mess that exists there now but not the thought of a
Slaughterhouse/ Wet Market! Just as you a right to your opinion so do I. Where do you live?


Close enough to hear the train idling at the station.

Barnacle Bill
Aug '20

BB: As much as it’s the auction house’s right to ask for a variance; it is ANY Hackettstown citizen’s right to voice opinion against it. Facts are better, but opinion and citizenship is sufficient.

It’s on the Auction House to prove it’s case, not the LUB to bend-over and take it. And it better give more than it takes at minimum.

Strangerdanger Strangerdanger
Aug '20

Well BB I’m sure then that you will be close enough to hear the horror that will emanate from there should this go in. Add that to the idling train!


Vegetarian Democrats peacefully protesting at corner of Main and Stiger Street.

Signs were not against quality of life issues for neighbors, but rather diet and lifestyle beliefs. Weakens the argument against.

Timmy
Aug '20

Barnacle Bill -- you are wrong. There are homes within 200 ft.

happiest girl
Aug '20

happiest girl, you're without a clue.

Take a look on google maps, use the handy-dandy measurement tool. From the closest point of the auction buildings, it's 300' to the near house.

Bemused Bemused
Aug '20

Is the proposal for livestock slaughter or restricted to poultry?

Happiest Girl ~ right on! ;-)

Melissa A Nolan Melissa A Nolan
Aug '20

http://njparcels.com/property/notice/2108_41.02_27
http://njparcels.com/property/notice/2108_41_24

here are the 200ft notification lists for the Auction House side as well as the animal processing plant side. While not many, there are some residential units in the 200ft radius that should be noticed. This list is more accurate than using Google maps.

Jim L Jim L
Aug '20

Bemused - you are the one without a clue.

There are homes on W. Valley View that are within 200 feet.

NJ notification site gives exact addresses and names of owners.

happiest girl
Aug '20

MAM

I’m close enough to hear the sheep today.

Mr 4paws Mr 4paws
Aug '20

Timmy. Your comment is inaccurate. Whereas there were signs reflecting the lifestyle and moral beliefs of some of the protesters, there were plenty of signs that reflected regard for the quality of life of the citizens. A number of signs were just our group logo and a few of images of slaughtered cattle.

Spetri01 Spetri01
Aug '20

Bemused, the 200 feet isn't measured from building to building, but from property line to property line.

ianimal ianimal
Aug '20

Town is finally shaping up thanks to the breweries and fantastic restaurants especially James On Main. This is just ridiculous to put it in this location. I’m a meat lover, but it doesn’t belong in this location.


This is something that should not be right in the middle of town, in my opinion. There's plenty of property surrounding town. Also, this is not a plus for property values, which are going up up up, finally.


I dunno... all the hipsters with money to burn love "farm to table"... this is the necessary intermediate step, unless they want to kill their own.

All those who promote the concept of "sustainable communities" should understand that localized meat processing is an essential piece of that puzzle. The same people who decry "factory farming" are the first to jump on the NIMBY bandwagon if that desired "local" "family-farm" "free-range" "grass-fed" "organic" food is processed within 100 miles of them...

And there's an active train station acting as a buffer between this property and any residential property... it can hardly be described as being in a residential area. its in a non-residential zoning district and does not directly abut any residential district.

I dont have a dog in this fight and I'm sure that a meat processing operation would be just as warmly received anywhere else. Hypocrisy isn't unique to Hackettstown Life...

ianimal ianimal
Aug '20

I have lived here since 1955. I’ve seen many changes in the town of Hackettstown. I have been reading your remarks on the Stiger Street auction market request.

It was wisely said that we should all do her homework and find out all the information about the proposed slaughterhouse at the market has applied for through the proper channels. Many of us have none professional comments.

I feel all the information of the size of the building contents and how the process is going to take place from A-to-Z should be known before we make comments or protest .

Let’s all get our facts together and then voice our opinions. I’m sure everyone will be listening.
Charlie

Charlie Charlie
Aug '20

https://www.wfmz.com/news/area/western-newjersey/proposed-slaughterhouse-at-the-hackettstown-livestock-auction-drawing-criticism/article_f5189494-e718-11ea-851b-ef091f0e3c69.html

OnTheEdge OnTheEdge
Aug '20

To offer local meat but they will not sell meat?

Covid 19 is the cause?

I smell a fish.....thought they were processing, not selling?

Strangerdanger Strangerdanger
Aug '20

Strangerdanger

What normally happens is that you (maybe not you personally, but I think you get what I mean) and a buddy get together and bid on a steer, based on current prices with the idea of splitting the costs in half. Once you win the bid, you then contract a hauler to take it to a slaughterhouse who then takes care of (hopefully) humanely dispatching the animal and cutting it up into two sides worth of meat cuts, all wrapped in butcher paper and labelled. You put your half in a chest-type freezer, thus assuring you have a nice supply of beef for quite a while to come.

My Dad went in on a side of beef with a buddy way back in the 70's. If you can afford the money up front, then it works out well in the long run. What the Livestock Auction is hoping to do (from their statement) is to make it so you don't have to contract out a hauler to take it to slaughter, nor then have to go to pick it up once it's all in nice little packages. What you buy there, you can have processed there, then take it home, though obviously not immediately.

I just passed by there this afternoon, as I do once or more per week. My family's business was in the back of the building that's right next door to the auction. Yes, the one between the Police Station and the Auction and in the several years we were there it was never anything but a good neighbor. The only day there was any noticeable smell was on Auction Day and I've smelled much worse passing by the farm in Port Colden by the old Canal Bed. The odor from the HMUA facility is often much worse. The buildings don't look decaying and rotting away either and I just had an eye exam yesterday (yes, literally yesterday) so I don't see it as a huge eyesore either.

I don't know if the farmers still bring local honey and other products to sell from their trucks or tents by the street as I used to see. I work on the other side of town and can't get over there. Before, I would stroll over at lunchtime and my Dad used to buy eggs from there. I see that one of the comments on that article is by someone who states that they live right on Valentine and actually love the auction house. Obviously, it's all from each person's individual perspective.

Do I think it should be an allowed usage (small volume slaughterhouse only for processing animals sold on premises)? I'm still up in the air about it. I'd possibly be ok with it if there were strict conditions in place to make sure that it doesn't turn into a morass of continually having small extras push the boundaries until it grows into a major operation. If that couldn't be assured, then definitely a no go for me.

Phil D. Phil D.
Aug '20

First to Iman; your logic may be faulty to call out hypocrisy just because you like the product, not the production process. You use oil; are you a hypocrite for not asking Exxon to open up down the street? Of course not.

Second, Phil; thanks. Bought my first half, grass fed, in the 70’s. Did deer for decades. But still would not want it processed in my neighborhood.

If I understand, in the time of covid, farmers are asking to avoid risk by driving to one more location. So they’re making demands for a variance for this facility to be one stop shopping taking additional risk out of the process. Thus covid 19 and local meat needed as I think the proposal states. For those against this variance, look that up and pay real heed to the public health aspect of this argument. It’s not about money, it’s about risk to public health. Puts the unsavory aspects and even the current law under a new covid 19 light.

Therefore, it could diminish the nimby aspects of the variance as well as previous law, written before covid. You will need a cogent argument here.

Also note that proper processes and technologies can mitigate almost every fear IF deployed and IF used correctly. Smells, effluents, waste, all can be dealt with, technically. Protesters will need to focus on mistakes and errors to prove that mistakes and tragedies will be a when and not an if.

Good luck all

Strangerdanger Strangerdanger
Aug '20

Happiest girl, what required notification was not made properly?

musicgal musicgal
Aug '20

Their application has not been deemed complete yet so they have not had a public meeting yet and therefore haven’t had to notice yet. Anyone saying they did not properly notice are wrong. There is no notice requirements until there is a completed application.

If they get the missing items on their application in time to notice for the Sept meeting then they will notice and have the public meeting in Sept. if they don’t get in time then they will notice for the October meeting

Jim L Jim L
Aug '20

I would suggest people attend meeting to learn facts rather than relying on online petitions which may contain misleading and misinformation.

for example:
"and to NOT release any information on the number of shifts to be worked, the maximum number of employees, and the hours of operation!!"

this was a WC request which means Waiver for Completeness only (information to be provided at later date) as clearly stated on their application. This is not an uncommom waiver request as that information is going to be part of their testimony at the public meeting. For example, I believe WaWa made the same waiver request and all this information was presented as part fo their public testimony.

Also it is not uncommon for an application to be incomplete and ask for waivers, it is then up to the LUB, with the help of their engineer's opinion, to grant or deny all/some of their waiver requests. Which is what happened here. Not all their waiver requests were granted and they are now getting that information and is why they were not ready for the August meeting and asked for it to be pushed back to the Sept meeting.


"In addition, this application was quietly submitted without proper notification."
All applications are submitted the same way and do not need to notice until their application is deemed complete and ready for a public meeting. Which this application is not complete yet and therefore has not needed to notice yet.

The LUB takes pride in making sure every application is handled the same way and follows the proper procedures. I understand that for some that don't follow LUB meetings they may not understand the process and that is why i have always encouraged the public to attend meetings so they see how things are run.

Jim L Jim L
Aug '20

I'm glad you cleared up some of the misinformation that is being posted and used by folks who are opposed to the proposal, Jim.

I see in the link above that WRNJ ran a blip about this subject the other day. Many inaccurate statements were quoted unfortunately.

As an aside, the group Slaughter Free Hackettstown is simply a local cause of the larger group Slaughter Free Cities. Their mission is to eradicate all animal agriculture leaving a plant based food chain.That is totally fine- folks can protest the color of the moon if they like. It really has little to do with any local economics, or property values,etc. I feel it should be noted that even if this was proposed on a 500 acre desolate parcel of land in the middle of nowhere it would be opposed by that group. With that said I am sure some residents of this town- not nameless, faceless folks on some online petition, do have some thoughts and valid questions and concerns related to the proposal. As a town resident I am one of those folks with questions. As Jim stated attend the LUB meetings!

This is the mission of the Slaughter Free folks:
"Slaughter Free Cities is a movement that seeks to end the destructive role animal agriculture plays in society. Meat is a leading cause of human disease, climate change and animal suffering. Right now in NYC, Slaughter Free Cities and the Animal Save Movement are coming together with local New York organizers as a unity effort to help Slaughter Free Cities generate widespread impact throughout 2020 and beyond. The Save Movement is based on the moral imperative of bearing witness to suffering and not turning away. Currently, the Save Movement has more than 600 vigils at slaughterhouses around the world. The goal is a vigil at every slaughterhouse on the planet."

I will add I am not opposed to the group at all. I am sure in some situations their efforts accomplish great things.


unfortunately Greg there is a lot of misinformation flying around from both those for it and those against it. I am glad it is on the public's radar as the public should be aware of whats going on in their town. That being said, in order to get accurate information, it is always best to attend the meetings.

Jim L Jim L
Aug '20

ghe auction itself is a horror to watch. animals being sold and made to walk arond a ring where they are very uncomfrotable. and forced to keep walking. the abuse of it is disgusting. no slaughterhouse shoudl be lbuilt inside a city. i am against all slaughterhouses and vbelieve people will be far healthier with a plant based diet which is what mankind was made for. all heart physicians say to move to a plant based diet. dairy and meat are not good for you. look at he bad conditions so many americans are in so that they are dying of the virus. 2 plus morbidies. where do you think that comes from, incidentally 67% of piglets have c diff. plus they have many many other diseases as well. so think about what you are eating. it is not as safe as the corupt govt tells you it is


I guess the 0ther 33% of the pigs made their houses out of bricks.
My wife eats pickled pigs feet, at least twice a month. She never got sick. Yet!
Remember, it helps if one builds up a natural immunity by eating a little bit of disease
once in a while.

Embryodad Embryodad
Sep '20

Jean, I'm just curious, what version of tin foil hat is your favorite? The beanie, the fedora or maybe the classic bowler?

Bemused Bemused
Sep '20

I am guessing that Jean does not like the Sussex county fair either.

I do sympathize with these animals. I just hate being paraded out in front of my office workers or customers and made to perform. So demeaning ;-).

EDad; yech. Just yech.

Strangerdanger Strangerdanger
Sep '20

https://www.hackettstown.net/sites/g/files/vyhlif646/f/uploads/september_22_2020_lub_meeting_agenda.pdf

Please note the Auction House is NOT on the agenda for the Sept 22 Land Use Board Meeting.

Jim L Jim L
Sep '20

Have they abandoned this inappropriate venture?

Melissa A Nolan Melissa A Nolan
Sep '20

I don’t see what the beef is; there’s a lot at steak here, why can’t they meat in the middle, why does everyone want to roast them.

Strangerdanger Strangerdanger
Sep '20

LMAO! SD- You made me laugh out loud with that one!


Melissa All I know is they did not submit the required documents in time to get on the Sept meeting.

Jim L Jim L
Sep '20

So, I'll preface this with saying that I'm not familiar with the legal intricacies of this particular situation - when it comes to LUB meeting rules and whatnot it's beyond me.

But I am not from Hackettstown, I just live here now. I grew up in a city in the midwest that's a major producer of processed beef, lamb, goat, and cheese. I lived a few blocks from an abattoir most of my life.

There's something... I dunno... heavy about it? Waiting at the schoolbus stop hearing the sheep and goats bleating down the road, the cows mooing as you walk home from the store, etc.

I'm not a big believer in "vibes" or anything but I have to say, growing up hearing the sounds of impending death in the moos and baahs and squeals - I didn't like it one bit.

Obviously this would be a much smaller scale, not trains running hourly or anything, but still, it's a consideration given that it's right in town and not out in the sticks somewhere else along the line.

kingcoriander kingcoriander
Sep '20

Gives PETA more time.

pampurr1 pampurr1
Sep '20

Can you explain a bit more pampurr1? What do you think PETA will do? This type of action happens all over the US, no?

Richie
Sep '20

PETA is a joke. They are a morally incoherent organization. I can supply scores of articles and links exposing that group for what they are. A fraud.

They are about as credible as getting your news and facts from social media.


And the meat packing slaughterhouse industry tiptoes through the tulips. Can you say The Jungle? That ain’t no joke.

Strangerdanger Strangerdanger
Sep '20

I agree with you Greg, Years ago PETA was caught putting out poison Baits to kill Hunters dogs. If a dog will eat the bait, what else will??
Years ago PETA showed up at the hunt in the Great Swamp, while this woman was lecturing my friend who was a hunter and how terrible it is to kill animals, he shut her down with, "are those Leather seats in your car?" PETA will accost people and do physical harm to people and their dogs if the can. They have been labeled a terroristic organization because of their tactics. They will trespass, and are not beneath destroying others property.

Mr 4paws Mr 4paws
Sep '20

Strangerdanger

Thankfully, due to the input of modern science and people like Dr. Temple Grandin, the industry is much improved over what it used to be, at least here in the USA. She and her team have spearheaded the move to the humanist methods possible for that part of the food chain, as well as methods of auditing same:

https://www.grandin.com/

https://source.colostate.edu/temple-grandin/

https://www.facebook.com/drtemplegrandin/

Phil D. Phil D.
Sep '20

Thanks Phil, think I said the same before and have read. But if meat producers were angels, the CA chicken plant and others wouldn’t be closed for the deaths and infections occurring there. The TX debacle noted above couldn’t have happened.

So, as I said before, it’s possible to do and not have smells or blood in the street, but at the same time, it’s not if a problem will occur, it’s when and how bad.

While PETA or it’s followers have done awful things, I don’t think they are on the FBI terrorist list. And as long as they ate law abiding here, they have the same rights as us.

Bottom line has not changed; it can be done right, they seem to be claiming public safety and C19 as a reason NOT to do it off prem and there is a specific law written to that business that makes slaughter on those premises illegal. So, even if it can be done right, that’s one heck of a variance, yet C19 is one heck of a public risk. That’s a new twist for those lobbying against a variance that normally should be impossible to get.

Really think the PETA part is a red herring in all of that.

Strangerdanger Strangerdanger
Sep '20

Greg, they have mucho $$$$$$ and many advocates just sayin. You want to bring that attention to Hackettstown? How foolish are you?

pampurr1 pampurr1
Sep '20

You are right about PETA having money and advocates which makes me believe a small operation like this won't really be on their radar......just saying.

I don't know where I stand on this and would have to learn more but I only work in Hackettstown so I really don't have a say. I just don't think PETA will put much, if any, effort into this. Those against it shouldn't count on their help.

Mel81 Mel81
Sep '20

Remains to be seen.

pampurr123 pampurr123
Sep '20

I ask everyone to watch the film ‘Earthlings’ available on YouTube, to learn more about slaughterhouses.

Sally Sally
Sep '20

Thank you Jim L for answering my question.

As someone who farmed, and raised beef and pork, I'd like to add my two cents.

Meat and its byproducts are essential and not going away. There are humane and healthy ways to raise and slaughter animals. Most people in the industry strive for this. I appreciate and respect animal rights advocates. I took wonderful care of our animals, and fed my four children well. There are worse things than death. Nursing homes hold many examples.

The issue here is the appropriateness of this activity in a small town, that has been growing due in part to the attractiveness of ethnically diverse dining, breweries and festive events. The Auction Market was established in 1941 to provide fair market value to farmers for their livestock and farm related equipment. Town ordinances were implemented years ago when the last slaughterhouse in town perimeters closed, and I believe to prevent the market from doing exactly this.

Just a thought....the market has a professional kitchen that is utilized only one day a week. Instead of a slaughterhouse, how about collecting, preserving, freezing and processing otherwise wasted local produce to supply food pantries. There is grant money available for such a venture. The board was approached with this idea a couple years ago and rejected it.

Melissa A Nolan Melissa A Nolan
Sep '20

I think there are many types.

- those who like meat
- those that don’t
- those who like pets
- those that don’t

Don’t matter; there’s a very specific law that says no. They are no asking to bend, they are asking to overturn. That’s more than a simple variance.

I agree Melissa; for decades they have handled this in other ways. If they need more revenue, there are many agro-related paths open to them. I have often wanted to stop to buy local agro, but they are so busy with other things on Tuesday, not gonna face that hoard.

They just need to think outside the stable ;-)

Strangerdanger Strangerdanger
Sep '20

Melissa A Nolan and Strangerdanger

I third all those comments. Well said.

Phil D. Phil D.
Sep '20

Phil D’s shortest post; right back at ya, big guy. And keep the longish tomes coming, good stuff!

Strangerdanger Strangerdanger
Sep '20

Nope, not the shortest;-)

Phil D. Phil D.
Sep '20

I am not personally opposed to it, but someone I know who lives close to the vicinity that this is proposed asked me how it will affect residential values in the immediate area?

Being that this IS so close to residential, I wasn't really sure how to answer....

Does anyone have factual basis to answer this?

Darrin Darrin
Sep '20

Darrin

Good question. The Auction House itself is pretty much screened from Valentine by trees on that (Auction House) side of the railroad tracks and you have the parking lot of the train station with another buffer of smaller trees on that side of Valentine. You can check the satellite view on Google maps to verify that, especially from their address with respect to the Auction House.

There's nothing on the other side of Stiger besides businesses until the other side of that block on West Prospect Street and anything over that way has woods in the way too. Charles Street, which goes over the brook and connects with W. Prospect intersects with Stiger on the other side of the building next to the Auction that I used to work in.

All in all, there are almost no houses with a real direct view of the building itself, though perhaps when the leaves are off the trees, but still not too likely. I believe the RR track border is evergreens too. Line of sight, you almost wouldn't know it's there. smells, and more likely sounds, maybe. It could be worse though, as in by the HMUA water treatment plant;-) Obviously a Real Estate professional would be best to answer that one, and even then I'm sure it would depend on whether it becomes the neighborhood nuisance that some people are afraid it would become IF passed.

Phil D. Phil D.
Sep '20

After what the board recently approved with the Bergen tool project I wouldn't be surprised if they allowed plans for a street view peep-show on Main Street at this point...Unfortunate to say, but I don't have much faith in most of them (not all) anymore to be "looking out for the residents" as they are suppose to.

Not so much worried about the line of sight, as it sounds like they are converting a existing building? More concerned with the whole, well that building over there is a..... aspect, much as would a rehab center, etc. You know how people worry about outside influences on the sell ability of their homes.

Personally I wish they would sell direct, would be awesome to have another butcher option then the one I currently use.

Darrin Darrin
Sep '20

Our home values will plummet once people realize there is a slaughter plant in Hackettstown. You can bet on it.

And besides Covid is rampant in these slaughter houses across the country. This is what Hackettstown wants?!

pampurr1 pampurr1
Sep '20

The production facilities were Covid is "rampant" employ HUNDREDS of people, who are working in close proximity to each other. It had nothing to do with the actual product they were producing. Sorry but that is just a bad argument.

JrzyGirl88 JrzyGirl88
Sep '20

As long as the uncaring members of the Planning Board (for whom no qualifications in planning is required) continue to rubber stamp these crazy and detrimental projects in Hackettstown, the quality of life will continue to decline.
I believe they all are appointed by the Mayor.
If and when the Bergen Tool site Is completed (as approved), we are going to experience problems of epic proportions.
Gridlock on Main St (Rte 46) will cause traffic to syphon off to the interior streets as a bypass.
Right by Washington Street School- couldn’t the Board foresee this?
The unit density of this project is insane.
Granting variances should be done judicially, rarely and only when a real hardship is present.
Seems like the current Board is wearing blinders when it comes to the quality of life issues in Hackettstown.

Stymie Stymie
Sep '20

Stymie I take it that you would be interested in volunteering to be on the Land Use Board? 2 seats are up every year but it seems no one new ever volunteers. Glad to hear you are interested. Please send your contact information to

mayor@hackettstown.net to be considered for one of the open LUB positions this Jan. I look forward to seeing you on the LUB next year.

Jim L Jim L
Sep '20

^ *where (early morning typo)

JrzyGirl88 JrzyGirl88
Sep '20

Jim L, so in order to have a complaint about a town decision we all have to serve on various town boards? Then our opinions matter? Come on.


Come on what Kat, When someone calls members of the Board "uncaring" I would assume then they would want to help out since they care so much.

One might say doing nothing but complaining on a dopey online forum rather than getting involved is "uncaring" But I guess for the lazy, complaining on an online forum makes them feel like they put in the effort.

Jim L Jim L
Sep '20

Hello folks, newsflash! Most people in government positions are merely puppets and are either bribed, threatened or blackmailed into doing what a larger entity wants them to do. And it's probably true with this slaughterhouse and the Bergen Tool housing project.


Man, I guess I've been doing this all wrong. no one has ever tried to bribe, threatened, or blackmail me. Too bad, I would enjoy laughing at someone trying to do that.

Jim L Jim L
Sep '20

Kim,

Puppets? To whom are you referring? I have never heard such nonsense.

pampurr1 pampurr1
Sep '20

Stymie......I believe that you do need minimal qualifications to be on a LUB.....
Land Use for Board Members
In 2005 the New Jersey State Legislature enacted N.J.S.A. 40:55D-23.3 and 23.4, which require that members of municipal planning boards, zoning boards of adjustment, and combined boards successfully complete a basic training course within 18 months of their appointment.

Richie
Sep '20

Unfortunately that above comment about "puppets, etc." is an unfair insult to the many citizens who volunteer their time to serve their municipality/government agencies. Being on these boards requires a lot of time invested. In today's busy world, it's a wonder we can find anyone who is willing to do that, especially when they get subjected to these type of insults. There may be one or two "bad apples" occasionally, but the majority are fair & honest people doing their best. As are the employees who work in your towns. You can criticize the elected officials if you are unhappy with how things are being done, but you have the option of voting them out.

Lonesome Dove Lonesome Dove
Sep '20

Thank you Richie.
Just reviewed your land use board requirements as passed by the State.
Absolutely no penalty if a
Member has been found not to have completed the courses.
Lotta “bite” in that legislation.
No way on God’s Green Earth that so many residential units should have been packed on such a small lot in the middle of Hackettstown- fronting on one lane in each direction Rte 46.
Extremely poor planning is a charitable description.
Why the density variance?
What was the hardship?

Stymie Stymie
Sep '20

When your in politics expect the criticism. Looking forward to the slaughter house decision by the LUB. This should be interesting.

pampurr1 pampurr1
Sep '20

https://www.hackettstown.net/home/news/town-residents-interested-serving-municipal-board-commission-or-authority

Let's see how many HL'ers will volunteer. Pampurr? Stymie? Kim? Kat?

Jim L Jim L
Oct '20

FYI, the Auction house will be heard on the October 27th Land Use Board meeting for completeness ONLY.

Agenda, zoom log in, and Architecture drawings can be found on Land Use page of the Town's website

https://www.hackettstown.net/land-use-board/agenda/land-use-baord-meeting-agenda

If deemed complete, then it will be scheduled for public hearing for the Novemeber meeting. If still deemed incomplete than it will continue to be pushed back until there is a completed application.

Jim L Jim L
Oct '20

Assemble in an enclosed room for meetings?

pampurr1 pampurr1
Oct '20

?? what are you talking about Pam?

The LUB meetings have been held via Zoom since March. The Zoom log in info is on the agenda.

Jim L Jim L
Oct '20

Pam,

It's a nefarious plot to infect all attendees with Covid-19 to reduce the population and bring about the New World Order. The Hackettstown Land Use Board is the High Council of the Illuminati.

You're definitely right to question it.

Bemused Bemused
Oct '20

And then the Soylent Green Company comes in..........

strangerdanger strangerdanger
Oct '20

Pampurr1, Just out of curiosity, do you volunteer for any of these boards?

Richie
Oct '20

Richie, I think we all know the answer to that question.

Jim L Jim L
Oct '20

Out of curiosity do you volunteer Ritchie?

pampurr1 pampurr1
Oct '20

Anyhoo back on topic....

It appears to me from looking over the drawings submitted that this will be a fairly small operation. While the volume of business expected, hours of operation, capacities, etc. are questions for the Livestock folks, I can't imagine any quantifiable change in truck traffic, noise, smells, etc. with an operation of this diminutive scale. If anything the people calling the site an "eyesore" will enjoy a newly renovated building. I would gather that they may also dress up the rest of the site during the construction of this facility if approved. I feel this Auction market is an important facility for all of our local livestock and agricultural farmers. It seems that allowing them to add this component to their business palette will be a great benefit to all associated with the Livestock Auction Market. Anything to help our local farmers can only be a positive approach in my opinion.


Please note the Auction House application was again deemed incomplete at the October 27th LUB meeting. They will be on the November 24th Agenda. If deemed complete on the November 24th meeting then they will go right into Public Meeting for their application that night. Notice for the October 27th meeting was carried to the November 24th meeting so no new notice will be provided. You can get the Zoom login information for the Nov meeting on the town's website about a week before the meeting.


In the news: https://www.njherald.com/story/news/new-jersey/2020/10/30/hackettstown-nj-slaughterhouse-proposal-sparks-debate/6055256002/

OnTheEdge OnTheEdge
October 31st

I do like meat, and for thosee vegetarians pointing out the cruelty, no, not much issue with looking in the eye, tapping on the head, and claiming "here's Al, as we serve em." Probably going to Dante's third level of Heck, but at least I'm enjoying the ride.

But I do understand.

The news clipping adds some points that are somewhat different than earlier reported.

First that a main reason is: "We got the idea, ‘let’s put a processing plant in so they can buy local stuff, raised by our local farmers from surrounding areas and that's how we got here. We thought it was a good fit,” Now that does not sound like retail to retail because they basically do that now, they just send out so this would be just skipping a step thus reducing c19 risk. As I said in the beginning, I would love to be able to purchase specialty meats butchered locally, and that's what the story sounds like. And that creates a whole nuther set of issues.

Here's the rubs, that I see IMO.

The main rub is that the law is so specific on this point that the business should not expect a variation without one heck of a rationale. Just slamming a slaughterhouse with a meat counter in that old building does not sound good enough.

The first rationale, retail to retail safety because of c19 might be provable, IMO, but it's still should be a tough sell against the law and the fact that they have not needed it for decades of business. But at that point, using the existing building is no big deal, it's a business to business sort of venture.

The second rationale, to be able to backfill a meat shortage, as noted as a primary reason in the news article seems bogus. First, this place could only support a miniscule amount of H-town demand. Plus, we know if the meat packing industry goes down, chances are we will call in the Army before we let it go bust. Selling specialty, higher quality, meats to locals, IMO, has an attraction (especially WIFM), but is that enough to turn over that specific law? Plus, could it even have a scintilla of a chance of being successful, enough of a chance to overturn that specific law forbidding it.

IF so, then it's a meat market and, as such, one of it's main competitors, is Artic Foods, The Meat Shoppe on the H-town side of Washington. They are renovating the place to be ultra-modern, big bucks, looks really grand, they deliver, going national (delivery), and frankly ----- looks top of the line, looks like a very fancy shop, and the prices are already listed, looks competitive. Also, it's an expansion giving one the feeling they have made a good business already, looking to grow better. There are many others, most are really pretty spiffy looking like Hyek's Market in Newton. If the H-town version is low investment, it just won't make it as a meat market against these guys.

Somehow I just can't imagine, based on the current status of the business, the investment over the years, any new business attempts, that our Proposed Abattoir will have anywhere close to the investment of it's competitors, won't have the look n feel of these other alternatives, so if they are selling to consumers ---- chances are I'm going to Washington. I just think internally retrofitting that building will never be as alluring as the competition. So, I think, as a meat market ---- probably a bust.

As just a retail to retail concern, to increase safety by removing a step during c19, seems more viable against the current building and a lower investment, but then that very specific law and the decades of NOT doing it (successfully I would gather, cuz they are still here) should real make the scale tough to tip towards a variance. IMO.

Best luck, I hope it has a consumer component, and I hope they can match the type of consumer investments made by their all-to-close competition in the same endeavor.

strangerdanger strangerdanger
October 31st

Slaughter is a business. A very profitable, filthy, appalling.....business. Horrible, cruel and disgusting. We don’t need it in Hackettstown.

BTW this article fails to mention NJ’s dirty little secret slaughter house Bravo Meat Packing in South Jersey. Way to go NJ Herald.

pampurr1 pampurr1
October 31st

Just don't think you'll get too far with horror stories about other lands and other things, nor how awful a business in general it is. First, legal. Second, in demand. Third, and perhaps most important, they are all around us and not making a nuisance of themselves.

To me, and what I keep trying to say is:
1. there is a law on the books specifically against it and there should be a really darned good cause to overturn law.
2. the "reason" seems twisted tween c19 safety by doing on prem instead of shipping out (not that it comes back), c19 shortage backfill (not bloody likely for oh so many reasons), and either retail sales, consumer sales, or both.
3. IMO, a lot depends on the investment; retail-to-retail has a much lower investment, they are kinda in the market already, and it's basically hidden -- citizens will probably not even notice it's there. Consumer --- much higher investment, much local alternatives/competition --- and very little track record these folks are ready for that. I think a basic meat counter in that little building won't be a huge draw. Like I said, at that level, I'm going to The Meat Shoppe in Washington.

For those for or against this (and I would love to see consumer sales); I think the rationale to overturn the current law is the big thing unless it's a in-the-pocket job and the town just flips the law without a major precedent. Nasty business, other bad examples, I hate meat --- all seem like losing red herring arguments even if true. I just think if they overturn it for consumer sales while seeing a minimal investment plan ---- it's a bad overturn of a stated law with a very small chance of success. And to overturn it for retail-to-retail, while I think investment wise is safer, you are still talking about overturning a law that this business has been surviving or thriving with for decades. I just don't see the c19 argument working in either case. Or, at least, IMO, it shouldn't.

Good luck to all and if they open Consumer Sales with a Hayek Market or The Meat Shoppe look n fell and offer -----> can't wait! But I'm smelling a much lower scale.

strangerdanger strangerdanger
November 1st

I just came from Hayeks. They are top drawer when it comes to their meat section.

pampurr1 pampurr1
November 1st

Zoom Information on the Land Use Board Meeting for Tuesday November 24 7:00PM has been posted.

https://www.hackettstown.net/sites/g/files/vyhlif646/f/agendas/november_24_2020_lub_agenda_1.pdf


I sat on the zoom meeting last night for hours and they never got to the slaughter house hearing. Sounds like it's pushed to next month (possibly) but they didn't seem to agree on a set schedule. I did, however learn a lot about the proposed gas station addition on rt 57 and the types of plants they will have and that they are not indigenous to the area as per the botanist expert. I was actually surprised at the level of detail that goes into a proposed change like this.


"types of plants they will have and that they are not indigenous to the area as per the botanist expert."

Lol to be fair JB400 the "botanist expert" was a member of the public that called in to comment on the choice of landscaping the engineer picked. But yes, in general, the LUB does review each application with a high level of detail

And just to not confuse anyone or start a rumor, thinking a new gas station is coming into town, the BP on 57 was looking to make some minor changes to their existing site. So not a new gas station, just improvements on an existing one.


Application advances: https://www.njherald.com/story/news/2020/11/27/hackettstown-land-use-board-approves-site-plan-proposed-slaughterhouse/6422411002/

OnTheEdge OnTheEdge
November 27th

“ The public will get a chance to weigh in next month on a contentious project to open a slaughterhouse in town, after the municipal Land Use Board approved a site plan Wednesday night.”

Awful journalism. The LUB did not approve the site plan. All they did was deem the application complete so it can move forward to public hearing. No approval was granted


I agree, Jim. Lori Comstock was on that Zoom meeting too. I can't imagine how she interpreted what took place, then penned as "reported". It could not be a more biased article loaded with misinformation and sensationalism. One example is: "Critics have raised concerns about the impact on an adjacent fish-stocked stream, as well as the safety of employees and the animals". The attorney representing the applicant dispelled that statement immediately by stating that any "run off " will be captured and disposed of as per USDA standards. Nothing will impact local steams or waste water systems. That was from a prior meeting as a matter of fact. Yet just another example of much of today's media. Zero credibility in my book.


While you might say she should have mentioned the lawyers comments, her story is spot on. Everything said has been said, as reported. She did not say approval. She did not say granted.

strangerdanger strangerdanger
November 28th

Everything she said was spot on; she could have added greg’s comment after removing the “dispelled” replacing with perhaps something like “contradicted.” The fact that USDA has standards, the lawyer says they will follow, does not mean it’s necessarily so. Accidents and malfeasance do happen.

It’s interesting she went with the proposers grocery argument. One; if they could even support a scintilla of Htown grocery demand, they’re floating a whole different bag of bones. Two: vaccine coming, no need for that anymore. Three: they been handling it just fine for decades and there is a law on the books forbidding it.

This should not pass. On it’s own merits.

Strangerdanger Strangerdanger
November 28th

“ after the municipal Land Use Board approved a site plan Wednesday night.”

What are you talking about SD? In her first paragraph she says the LUB approved a site plan. The LUB did not approve any site plan at that meeting let alone the auction house’s site plan. All they did was deem 3 different applications as complete so they can move to public meetings. Saying a site plan has been approved is inaccurate and poor journalism


Re: “What are you talking about....”

Sorry, I don’t speak LUB. Deemed complete, approved site plan, approved application, deemed site plan complete. All seems the same.

Does the LUB post it’s process, including terminology for all of the gates in the process? Where on the LUB website would one find the correct terminology for these necessary steps?

But you are right, someone should have caught her LUB terminology mistake. And thank you for correcting mine. Appreciated.

Your savvy as a politician able to persuade people and draw them to your vision not withstanding.

Strangerdanger Strangerdanger
November 28th

I think Jim is stating that the journalist who reported incorrectly has a fiduciary responsibility to understand the relatively easy process and terminology of a LUB. Particularly in this case as she has been attending the LUB meetings on a regular basis and it was explained clearly during the meeting. Whether or not you or any reader of the article have a full understanding of the nuances or terminology is not at issue. The reporter should produce a clear and accurate account of the facts from a meeting leaving no doubt as to a projects current status. At least that's how I see it.

As far as LUB processes, Jim could speak to that better than I could but I gather it's all covered in the NJ Municipal Land Use Law.

https://www.state.nj.us/dep/hpo/3preserve/mlul_02_2017.pdf


Spot on my butt roast! That stream has not been stocked in years. This will be a very nice addition in our community.


Greg, fiduciary? What an arcane outdated definition of that term. Hats off madam, given our discussion of process and terms ;-).

Jim does try to describe the processes and terminologies, always appreciated, but, like many orgs. tends to get a tad short with those outside the “know.” As I noted , I can not find said processes and terms on the LUB website, nor has JL provided direction. I am sure this is one reason citizens don’t participate more, why those trying to take part get frustrated, although as I stated, the journalist and editor should know better. Although she was not that wildly off the mark on describing what occurred and what will occur. Except to the insiders who haven’t seemed to share their process or terms either.

Hey, my world is far worse although we tediously document all processes, gate functions, and gatekeepers. It’s not only the way of the world, but also how we protect our expertise. Gotta know latin to be a lawyer, gotta know what a zoning variance is to be a LUB-er.

Application deemed sufficient, application complete, variance approved, greek or latin to most citizens. What has LUB done to make understanding the process and terminology easier?

Your document covers Historic Districting which is also off topic to this discussion but a very good document. Thanks. Pretty funny though considering how badly the LUB screwed that up in the Htown Master Plan. Much less after paying someone to write it I would gather.

So still pretty spot on article except for the precise LUB terminology as Jim noted, I oopsed, got corrected, agreed above, yet pretty small change mistake.

NaFan’s push back on the stocking is not correct. The journalist was describing what critics said, not the status of the stocking program. Think NAF is correct on the stocking however that probably does not change the creeks status so the critics just need to rephrase. Other places they used to stock still retain the same waterway status with or without the stocking, at least the Pequest tributaries have been treated that way. But does not matter; she was reporting on what the critics said; they did say that, NaFan is wrong in that regard, but probably right on the stocking.

And I still like meat and can’t wait to try the updated Meat Shoppe in Washington. They even deliver

‘Htown’s version is still against Htown zoning law. Very specifically to this business. So, it’s one heck of a variance for something not needed for decades and certainly something that will not make a dent in a possible meat shortage, as the owners claim. Better they go with “less steps, less risk” during these times argument.

Best luck to all. And one heck of a variance in anybody’s book.

Strangerdanger Strangerdanger
November 29th

Attend a Land Use Meeting SD, they're pretty easy to follow along, and all the big terminology like "completed" and "approved" will be explained.


I have, they are not, and frankly, a layman speaking can be an uncomfortable time.

Can you tell me all jurisdictions have the same LUB process?

Are you telling citizens the only way to figure it out is to participate?

And you wonder why citizens get frustrated trying to get through the process?

Once, you had to have a lawyer to get through probate. Then, in many places, someone wrote up the process and self service was born. I bet there’s a lit of lawyers helping folks at LUB too.

You have processes. They have gates you have to pass to do things. Publish them., Start with the ones citizens use, follow up with ones more apt to be used by developers. Your words are understood; it’s the terms using multiple words that are oblique.

You participated in a long discussion on M&M’s request, lots of sound information, before announcing it was moot; the gate had been passed. Apparently no one could figure that out. Not that easy.

Or maybe the LUB is not capable of documenting or copy/paste its processes. It’s not a big job to “complete” for citizens’ “approval.” You can understand that? So, why do you often correct people, much less snarkily. I mean this journalist didn’t use your terms and you got all bent. Not that easy.

Strangerdanger Strangerdanger
December 1st

"Can you tell me all jurisdictions have the same LUB process?"
-yes every town follows the same LUB process as set by the State's LUB laws

"Are you telling citizens the only way to figure it out is to participate?"
- a simple Google search will work, but yea attending meetings is always an easy way to figure it out

"You have processes. They have gates you have to pass to do things. Publish them."
- it's right there on the town's website on the LUB page.

"You participated in a long discussion on M&M’s request, lots of sound information, before announcing it was moot; the gate had been passed. Apparently no one could figure that out. Not that easy."
- I have no f'ing clue what you are talking about here.


FYI the auction house application should be heard at the Tuesday 12/15 Land Use Board meeting. Agenda and meeting log in info is found on the town's website

https://www.hackettstown.net/land-use-board/agenda/land-use-board-agenda-9

The application will probably last a couple of meetings so be patient, but the good news is you can attend the meeting from the comfort of your home.


Thanks for Posting Jim, I will be there


The applicants for the co-op application stated that they are not prepared to proceed tonight and requested that they be moved to the January 26th meeting - the Board voted and approved this. There will be NO further notice of this applicant, it will be carried over.


If one of the rationales to do a zoning 180 and overturn longstanding ordinance was to respond to food shortages due to recent current events, these delays make one wonder if that will even be necessary given little shortages and the beginning of the end of the very thing that precipitated said rationale. Apparently, the petitioner doesn’t exactly feel the time-sensitive pressure of their own rationale.

Or is it something else instead?

Strangerdanger Strangerdanger
December 16th

I believe one of the justifications for the variance is that at the time the proposed use was prohibited, there was little if any federal/state regulation. That has certainly changed and could be worthy of the variance.


So, because big brother wrote up rules and regulations; the ordinance is not needed? Government intrusion as a good thing?

If true, I like it on so many levels. Very fact based argument for the ordinance 180. Nicely played, madam.

Strangerdanger Strangerdanger
December 16th

I am glad they moved the variance till Jan meeting. I tried to get in Dec 15 and for some reason it didn't work. I just have one question and whether or not you agree or but who puts a slaughterhouse in the middle of a residential neighborhood???? The idea that animals are being slaughtered with the smell that goes with it near my home and others homes is abhorrent to me! If you need a slaughter house put it where no one lives on a big plot of land.


Dianne, you raise a great point. Yet, with modern techniques there are no smells. Not that they will be deployed here, and I am not sure of ANY regulation, beyond normal business, is in place for NJ or US slaughterhouses in this regard.

I think what you are describing is the "increased risk" of smells, and perhaps a good deal of other things as I noted above.

The applicant, as I noted above, in their application, states their justification for the variance is increased public safety in Hackettstown. This is clearly not true since the status quo is ZERO animals are being slaughtered in Hackettstown and with this variance, they will be, as many as the design allows, potentially. 24x7 potentially. Even will all the regulations that ever could be passed, this would INCREASE public safety risks in Hackettstown. No way around that. No way to skirt that issue. Perhaps the world will be safer, but Hackettstown will not.

They are asking not for a variance but a complete overturn of a stated ordinance. Usually a variance is a deviance, an exception, and not the complete obliteration of a zoning law. Like allow my fence to be 40 feet from something instead of 50 feet as the law calls for. This is more like 0 feet.... There must be amble justification since it will create the precedent that ANY Hackettstown LUB ordinance can be completely and unilaterally overturned just as this one may be. The proper method to do this would be to re-write/delete the entire zoning ordinance via that process, not a variance.

Therefore, just the risk to Hackettstown public safety, like awful smells, should be enough to uphold the law and not overturn it via ordinance.

Again, I love to eat meat, would love a new business to Hackettstown. This one does not meet it's own justification, offers a small number of PTSD-prone jobs, does not offer Hackettstown citizens any new products/services, and calls for the obliteration of a stated zoning ordinance. As much as I like a good steak, it should not pass.

strangerdanger strangerdanger
2 weeks ago

The slaughterhouse plans call for a live animal receiving area, inspection office, slaughter area, carcass cooler, a retail room and shipping area. It would be for co-op members' use only. Where are these other buildings going? Are they planning to do all this in the building across from the auction house?


https://www.hackettstown.net/sites/g/files/vyhlif646/f/uploads/224_stiger_street_architectural_plans.pdf

All the things you posted pam will be housed in 1 building. Drawings of the building is available on the towns LUB website


One question as it's a little hard to tell from the plans

1. Are they extending West Prospect? It is shown in the plans as going past the lot in question, but it currently ends at Charles currently. Notation the plans is too blurry to read.


Re: Proposed Abattoir at Stiger Livestock Auction

@Dianne,

Not sure where you live, but the best I can tell the proposed location is just about 490 feet away from the closest house.


While all of these issues: location, smells, runoff, human design, lack of value to the vast majority of Hackettstown residents, are all worthy, and should be noted, IMO, the core issue that overarches ANY of these other concerns is:

1. this is not a variance, it is a total obliteration of the ordinance, the law.
2. the applicant's justification, public safety, is just not true.

I just don't see how the LUB can pass, much less continue to think about overturning the ordinance without justification. I just don't see how the LUB can pass, much less continue down the path of erasing ordinance via variance. If it passes, no LUB ordinance is sacred.

strangerdanger strangerdanger
1 week ago

@SD, we saw that with Quick Check on mountain ave. It's in the books that no variance shall be granted if it is proven to negatively affect surrounding resident's way of life (written in my words)

As we saw, numerous residents spoke of how this gas station would affect their way of life, and the project was still passed.

Point: don't be surprised, they have done it in the past.


I hear ya Darrin. I do think this one is even more blatant though. In the Quick Check example of OMG the neighborhood is ruined, the historic district encroached upon, traffic will be coming from heck variance, there was perception, opinion, and judgement. Also, the applicant's justification was valid. Might not agree, might not like it, but it was valid. On some of these judgements, one man's negative is another's "it's OK." On this one the law saws: "there shall not be slaughter associated with animal auctions" -----> it's black letter, not much room for any judgement call besides: "nah, we like these guys better than we like following the law."

If passed, IMO, this will be an egregious misuse of power. If it happens, we can all guess why, but it can't be because of the tax revenues, the jobs, the good to the community ------> especially the last one.

strangerdanger strangerdanger
1 week ago

you guys are also confusing 2 different boards. The board that handled the QC application was our Zoning Board which does not exist anymore.

Also, the wording you were looking Darrin is:

"No variance or other relief may be granted by the Board unless such variance or
other relief can be granted without substantial detriment to the public good and
will not substantially impair the intent and purpose of the zone plan and the
zoning provisions of this Ordinance"


^
|

Yup, that's it, thanks Jim!

Didn't the zoning board get merged into the planning board to create the land use board? Different people, yes....different board....well...that's debatable ;->

Guys, I say it all the time, show up (well in this case call in) and SPEAK! If people do not speak, the silent majority wins. Public time is allowed for this


Still seems that this variance is asking the LUB to substantially impair the intent and purpose of the zoning plan.

Let’s review; zoning plan says slaughter not allowed. Variance says it is. Sounds substantial. Sounds like impaired purpose and impaired intent.

Applicants justification for increased public safety not true. Today no slaughter. Variance says there will slaughter. That’s not a safer Hackettstown.

I can understand wanting to use the asset for greater revenue. That’s a good idea. Something from agriculture; that’s even better. This variance is a 180- degree variation from the written, specific, black letter ordinance.

Hate to see what happens to the poultry building next if this one passes.

Strangerdanger Strangerdanger
1 week ago

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