Celiac Disease & Gluten Free Thread

Since I didn't want to hijack the 30 Burgers thread with a response about Celiac Disease and Gluten issues and I couldn't find any newer threads on it, I thought I'd start one now. Firstly is my response to Metsman and JR about their posts on that thread, but I think many of us could use the thread to discuss which prepackaged foods we've found tasty, our sources for GF products, what kinds of issues we've had, as well as how you found out you have issues with gluten.


The Celiac Foundation was started in 1990 and it had already been recognized as an important enough issue by then for the Foundation to be created:

https://celiac.org/

It's estimated that 1 in 100 people worldwide have celiac issues (as per the website). Years ago it was thought to be a genetic issue affecting mostly Northern European populations and those of the British Isles, however as years went by, the issue has been found in many ethnic groups. One theory is that some genetic populations weren't able to adapt to the widespread cultivation of wheat which has been noted as the rise of agriculturalism, possibly because the earliest large gatherings of people around a religious center necessitated a need for feeding that population without having to range far and wide for resources.

It's not only an important issue for your stomach's well-being, but in many cases actually dangerous and life threatening. There are several layers of issues, the first is being gluten-sensitive, the lowest level of issues, so to speak. That's the level I'm on. Eating gluten products from a number of sources such as wheat or rye can cause bloating as well as IBS-type symptoms, such as going from constipation to diarrhea and back again as well as a host of other things. The normal way to find out whether you have this is by the Gliadin antibody blood test, which of course isn't perfect, but it's a start.

The Gliadin antibody blood test is also a good place to start if the next level, true "Gluten Intolerance" is suspected. If you test positive, then you should see a Gastroenterologist in order to discuss the issue with them. The next step in testing, indeed the "Golden Standard" is to do an "Upper GI endoscopy" where they lightly sedate you, and put the flexible camera down your throat to examine your Upper Gastrointestinal Tract. They observe and may also take samples of your intestinal villi to send to the lab in order to look for damage to them. What normally happens with Gluten Intolerance is that the villi are damaged by the gluten and do not stand straight up in order to properly absorb nutrients in your food, etc. They appear to be flattened or bent over and aren't able to do their job properly.

If the villi aren't functioning properly due to damage from gluten, then "malabsorption" normally occurs: https://www.medicalnewstoday.com/articles/322467.php Not getting the proper amount of nutrients can lead to medications not being absorbed correctly and doing their proper job. As I found, it can also mask a medication allergy. When I was eating gluten before I knew of any issues for sure, I had no problems with a particular antibiotic. After I started going gluten-free I was given the same antibiotic and started getting a rash on my ankles that progressed to my knees before we figured out what it was. A change of antibiotic fixed the issue and we believe it was due to earlier lack of full absorption of the meds.

This can also lead to malnutrition and even death should it not be caught early enough, which leads to the third level of gluten issues, an actual allergy to gluten, which would require immediate assistance, similar to peanut allergies. If I remember correctly, the reaction isn't usually as quick or severe as in peanut allergies though, but since I don't have that level of issue, I couldn't say for sure. To diagnose an actual gluten allergy, you'd need to see an Allergist, rather than a Gastroenterologist and have the related testing done.

End part one

Phil D. Phil D.
Dec '19

Part two

Gluten itself is important in cooking and especially baking, as it's the "glue" that holds the product together for doughs, etc. It's also what makes pasta able to be extruded into all kinds of shapes without falling apart. Flours have a gluten level based on what they're designed for. A flour for baking cake has much less gluten in it than a flour meant for a bagel or pretty much at the highest level is pizza dough. I'm sure you can see why. That of course doesn't mean that cake is safe for someone with gluten issues to eat, but if you're at only the "sensitive" level, a small piece of nirthday cake would likely not elicit as much reaction or response from your system as eating a slice or two of pizza.

There are now products on the market (3 different brands at CVS) which are supposed to help if you suspect a food contains gluten. I tried all three and like the "MeMy" brand the best, but everyone's system is different. I suspect that it may help more if you are only sensitive and not truly intolerant, but may help to prevent the pain involved if you normally stay gluten free and you accidentally ingest a food you're unsure of that does contain gluten. If truly allergic, obviously DON'T use it! The formulations consist of enzymes which supposedly break down the gluten into a non-destructive form, somewhat like Bean-O does to help break down the complex carbohydrates in beans so they don't give you the later gaseous emissions due to inability to digest them fully.

Many gluten-free products use the gluten in corn or rice, which doesn't provoke the same reaction in people. There are also a number of "Ancient grains" as they usually call them which don't provoke the same reactions either. The celiac site lists a lot of useful info for anyone interested.

Of course it's only been in recent years with the publication of various books that gluten-free dieting has now become both popularized AND trivialized I believe due to that popularity. While it's true that GMO may have caused an uptick in the amount of people with the various gluten diseases, modification has been going on both naturally and by biologists for ages. Cross-pollination, etc. was already a form of speeding up what nature does by itself and GMO speeds things up even further. Whether or not that has led t it outpacing more people's ability to digest it properly is unsure, though adding disease and drought resistance, etc. allows more to be grown per acre of land.

That said, it's very likely that celiac diseases have existed through the ages, but have remained unrecognized as the malabsorption, etc. caused from it led it to be called one of the "great pretenders". You would show symptoms of numerous other diseases that would seem unrelated to celiac disease, unless you knew to look for it already and most doctors weren't that versed in its affects. When I told earlier doctors that having 2 bagels in a day seemed to provoke bloating and/or diarrhea or other issues, they'd just say, "well then don't eat bagels", rather than making any connection to celiac issues.

Of course one shouldn't "go gluten free" just for the fad of it, but rather because you've noticed issues that may be related. The best thing to do is to go to your GP/PCP and tell them if you've been having issues and request the Gliadin antibody blood test. You have to be eating gluten as normally to take the test though, as the antibodies may not show up as well. The same goes for the Upper GI endoscopy. If you've been off gluten for a while, you have to be eating it again because the damage normally does actually heal over time, so the endoscopy would show little to no damage and be either inconclusive or show no damage, leading to a negative result when you could actually be positive for the disease. The point is, if you suspect it to be an issue, it's usually easier to keep eating it and get the tests first than to do the whole "elimination diet" route.

Phil D. Phil D.
Dec '19

Wow, great info Phil! I'm sure a lot of people will appreciate this thread.

JeffersonRepub JeffersonRepub
Dec '19

Awesome...I appreciate your effort to inform the masses...I was diagnosed with celiac 20 years ago before gluten free was cool. People still dont get that it is a terrifying disease when you dont know what's wrong or if you struggle with refractory sprue when you are exposed or ingest hidden gluten. It can quickly become life threatened. Great to see quity info here. Celiac.org saved my life in the early days. It is a complete lifestyle change to be sure.


Flour is gluten free.... .until you add water to it

Bug3
Dec '19

Bug3

Your statement is essentially pointless and valueless in this discussion.

While nobody eats flour, except if when baking something "Gluten-free" someone coats a pan or the baking surface with regular flour in order to make it slide easier, that will still cause a reaction in the Gluten-affected individual. That's called "cross-contamination" and why different cooking areas or utensils and pans are normally used. It's true that "Gluten" as a term actually refers to the proteins in the flour activated by water, BUT it is the proteins themselves that are the underlying cause of the issue. From this article:

https://modernistcuisine.com/2018/04/gluten-how-does-it-work/

"Gluten is formed when two of wheat’s native proteins, glutenin and gliadin, come into contact with water. That’s why it’s more accurate to talk about the gluten potential of a particular flour, rather than its gluten content. Either way you phrase it, the more gluten a flour can produce, the more able the dough is to hold gas bubbles, and those gas bubbles are what gives bread an open crumb."

People can read about the technical details about how the "gluten" is activated in the flour by water, mixing and "proofing" if they wish and under "other factors" the point I made about higher/lower percentage of "gluten" in flours for various purposes should they want more info about baking itself and why it's been so important to baked goods.

So while what you say is true, as I say, it's not germane to the discussion.and while you may not be doing it on purpose, you're only being a provocateur. I was hoping to keep this thread useful for those actually affected by celiac issues.
Are you perhaps a Jimmy Kimmel fan? The article refers to this clip which I actually saw when it first aired. It's also partly why I stopped watching him, re: his comment trivializing the issue at 0:19 "Now some people don't eat gluten because of medical reasons, which that I get, it annoys me, but I get it." In trying to be funny he actually doesn't get it and should have educated himself enough to state that it is a serious medical issue for some. Instead he goes on to have someone "interview" people who look to be out running or exercising and happen to be taking part of the fad of going gluten-free without knowing the details.

I'm sure that in usual tv sensationalism fashion they cut any interviews they may have done with anyone actually gluten-affected who would almost definitely have known much more about it.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AdJFE1sp4Fw

As I mentioned before, if someone feels they may have an issue, do the testing to tell for sure. The "fad" of going gluten-free was likely mostly started based on the book "Wheat Belly", by cardiologist William Davis and spread by word of mouth, rather than by facts. I don't know if "Wheat Belly" did more good than harm. Here's what WebMD has to say about it:

https://www.webmd.com/diet/a-z/wheat-belly-diet-review

So Bug3 my question to you is, why are you seemingly being a provocateur in this discussion and on the 30 burgers one? Those of us that should stay gluten-free for actual medical reasons (which I discussed in my first two posts) need to deal with the fact that they don't have particularly good substitutes for wheat. Those that don't have to don't need to bother, that is, unless they have to eat gluten-free due to a family member's medical issues and are resentful of that fact. What's your story? Do you actually have medical issues or a family member with them and resent having to eat gluten-free? Are you just annoyed by people who ask for gluten-free products because you think this is JUST the "fad of the decade" or something as Jimmy Kimmel is, despite him claiming "he gets it"? Or what?

Whatever your reasoning, I'm requesting that you stop, unless you have something of actual value to add. While many of us use humor to break the tension of a thread and we all have freedom of speech (as regulated by the moderators, of course), you're essentially trivializing the very real medical issue that a number of people on this thread and in the HL life community have. That wasn't why I started this thread, but rather to help people that do have this issue and allow them to share without people causing non-productiveness.

While perhaps I shouldn't have even responded to you, I do so because you may actually have something of value to share to help others who have medical problems due to gluten proteins.

Phil D. Phil D.
Dec '19

How hard is it to remain gluten free in a gluten filled world? Like, take 30 Burgers....please.... Sorry, tension reliever... But, say you go to 30 Burgers. They don’t offer gluten free on the menu. Do you just say, wrap it in lettuce? Or do you have to leave re cross-contamination? Same for all sufferers, or can the ones with the milder versions “muscle” through?

Strangerdanger Strangerdanger
Dec '19

I think it comes in degrees.... the whole "cross-contamination" thing... from what I understand, DOES make a difference to some people, but not to others.

Which makes me thing the entire celiac thing revolves around an auto-immune reaction of some kind... so many "ailments" in today's world seem to, when you get all the way down to the core, the body either attacking itself, OR the body NOT attacking things it should be (like cancer).

JeffersonRepub JeffersonRepub
Dec '19

I was diagnosed with celiac disease 13 years ago. At that time gluten free food was almost nonexistent. What little there was available was tasteless, dry and expensive. I used to travel to Stroudsburg to a specialty health food store that had half an aisle of gluten tree foods. Then Donaldson Farms started carrying quite a few GF items which made life easier. Today my entire household is GF so there are no cross contamination issues. I am extremely sensitive and the tiniest crumb of gluten will make me sick for several days. I only eat out at Mama's. Other restaurants claim to have GF items, but those GF items are prepared on the same surfaces with the same cooking utensils that are used for their gluten filled items. I have tried several times but always get sick. One of the worst things is people's attitude when you tell them you are gluten free. You get the eye rolling and the " oh, you are one of those" comment. They do not understand that we are not doing this to be fashionable but that gluten not only makes us sick for several days but does damage to our guts that can eventually lead to severe weight loss and malnutrition. After all these years, thanks to a strict GF diet, my gut is finally beginning to heal somewhat and I'm gaining some weight. I was unable to pass the 90 pound mark for years and years. Everyone needs to be made aware that Celiac disease can
be life threatening.

Pamela Pamela
Dec '19

https://www.prnewswire.com/news-releases/aldi-exclusive-livegfree-product-line-becomes-permanent-addition-in-stores-278362351.html

Rockaway or Stroudsburg are the closest. People really like this line. I am not g-free, free but sometimes I do eat some g-free products due to FMS. Hope this link helps someone find affordable g-free options!

Weebiekins Weebiekins
Dec '19

I cannot tell you how much I appreciate this post. My 6 year old daughter was diagnosed T1 diabetic in June and we just found out in October that she is also celiac. Mealtimes have definitely been a challenge because we try to find something diabetes friendly and gluten free, as well as kid friendly. =-/

We enjoy mama's pizza while ordering/dining out but feel limited to where we (family of 5.....4 non celiac) can go. If anyone has a restuarant and/or bakery you enjoy, as well as GF products, please feel free to share. As a newbie to this way of life, it is greatly appreciated.

EG_1982 EG_1982
Dec '19

Country Corner Store & Cafe in Mansfield has a lot of allergy friendly options. They are always posting GF specials etc. on their FB page.

https://countrycornerstoreandcafe.com

Calico696 Calico696
Dec '19

There is a wonderful dedicated gluten free bakery in Stirling NJ, Morris county that I frequent. It is called Gluten Free Gloriously. It's about 35 minutes from Hackettstown but sooo worth the ride for anyone with celiac disease. They also carry dairy free products .
They have every baked good imaginable
From bread and rolls to cannolis and cookies to pizza and made to order cakes. They are open seven days a week. In my opinion they are a God send! You can find them on the web and on Facebook.

Pamela Pamela
Dec '19

My Son age eight, was six when he was diagnosed. He has had an endoscope and has blood work done every six months to check his levels. It was a struggle And a sense of defeat not knowing why he was getting sick! The endoscope showed three ulcers, damage to stomach lining. He had lactose intolerance and vitamin D deficiency. Due to celiac. Now two years strictly gluten free, he is healthier happier and thriving. It is NOT an allergy it is an auto immune disease.

Healthier son Healthier son
Dec '19

Pamela and EG_1982

That's why I started this thread and apparently Bug3 just doesn't "get" how serious it is for some people. On the other (30 burgers) thread he mentions you can tell by the first bite whether or not the bun is gluten free. As you know, by that time it's too late, that "first bite" and the remaining cross contamination will cause harm in some people. I'm glad you both and others find this thread helpful.

Healthier son

Yes, in your son's case it is (and in the majority of others) indeed an autoimmune reaction, which "Gluten Sensitivity" and "Gluten Intolerance" both are. That's why in my first two posts I differentiated between that and a true Gluten allergy, which isn't the same, as it is technically an allergy to wheat itself (actually many of the proteins in wheat, not just the "gluten proteins", and is diagnosed via an Allergist, rather than a Gastroenterologist. A true Wheat allergy is rarer and the results would need to be countered via Epi-pen or the like, as a person truly allergic can go into anaphylaxis with swelling of the tongue and throat, as well as closure of their airway. Again, that's the rarest type of Gluten/Wheat issue, but it does also occur.

Here's a well-written article on the differences, however the problem is that many of the symptoms overlap (except for anaphylaxis, the most severe symptom of an allergic reaction):

https://www.healthline.com/health/allergies/gluten-allergy-symptoms

Here's an article on the American College of Allergy, Asthma & Immunology which gives details on true wheat allergy, wheat being one of the top 8 allergic triggers. Unfortunately, those most affected by it are children, though fortunately, a good percentage of them grow out of it by age 12. Yay for puberty and body changes, eh;-)

https://acaai.org/allergies/types/food-allergies/types-food-allergy/wheat-gluten-allergy

Unfortunately the acaai website states that there is no accurate test for gluten intolerance, which I'm not sure of what their idea of accuracy, but some of the tests shown here are at 95% with fairly rare false positives or negatives, though they do occur. Apparently, they don't communicate or coordinate well with the Gastroenterology community? In any case the antibody blood test has been around for maybe 10+ years now.

I was happy when the blood test came out as a regular diagnostic tool to prescreen before heading to the "gold standard" of endoscopy to look and sample for damaged villi, because my first endoscopy came back inconclusive, there looked to be damage, but not heavy damage and they needed another larger sample to tell. I wasn't happy that the Doc had only grabbed a minimal sample, but of course his opinion was that he could just go in again and take more - yeah, sure Doc. The blood test came back as a strong positive in my case. The next endoscopy, either I wasn't back on gluten long enough or I have another gluten issue I think was mentioned in the healthline article, as it came back that I had minimal villi damage.

Phil D. Phil D.
Dec '19

How does “leaky gut” syndrome fit into all this? Or does it?

Strangerdanger Strangerdanger
Dec '19

Phil D

Thank you for the articles. I will take the time to read through them! My son’s villi was severely damaged. Hence the ulcers, lactose intollarent and vitamin deficiency. He is doing so much better now

Surprisingly my older son, carries both the genetic gene DQ and DQ8. His igg and iga numbers were below the mark. So far he’s happy to eat all the gluten he can. Ha ha

Healthier son Healthier son
Dec '19

Phil D
You can fry with flour..no gluten...the gluten is created when flour is mixed with water. .a protein forms..its a chemical reaction....gluten is NOT the worlds problem...the person who is alergic to it needs to recognize and avoid it...a peanut allergy is a different animal...its not obvious

Bug3
Dec '19

Calico and Pamela

Thanks for your input! Calico, I love the people and products at the Anderson! They are wonderful there and when I found they had gluten free pierogies that you could order for Christmas I ordered 2 packs! I usually have my burger there sans bun though anyway, but they have various Gluten Free baked goods available for sale there, including pumpkin pie the last time I was there! They also often have GF brownies and other goodies and take the Gluten issue seriously. It's not just a sideline for them, it's a decent portion of their main offerings. The only drawback is that they're closed on Sundays and they normally close at 5:30 on other days.

As I write this, I just finished a Freschetta 4 cheese Gluten Free Pizza from Target, who I've found has a good selection of the prepackaged GF meals, especially pizzas. They have pizzas that also have either Sweet Potato or Cauliflower crust too. I'm addicted to Amy's "Broccoli & Cheddar Bake". I get the family size meal which leaves leftovers for next days lunch and it can be prepared in the oven or microwave. It's in the family-sized meal area though, not in the regular GF frozen section. Perdue GF chicken strips are also very good, the Tyson ones are usually more expensive, even when on sale, btw.

Strangerdanger

In response to your question, yes, it is possible for someone with "just" Gluten Sensitivity to "muscle through it", so to speak, but even with the Gluten aid pills, there are normally repercussions, from abdominal pain and bloating to an overall feeling of malaise and sluggishness. So yeah, if you're willing to deal with that for the taste of a "real" pizza or burger bun once in a while, that's up to the person.

Any restaurant that advertises that they offer Gluten Free items have to be aware of cross contamination and use separate cooking areas and utensils for GF preparation and cooking. Most pizzerias solve this by buying pre-prepared and sealed pizzas that have a cooking plate in the packaging. That way, they can cook it in their regular pizza oven which often has remnants of flour on the cooking surface and the wooden "shovel" (sorry, can't remember its official name - spatula?). They also should use a different cutter as well. Frank's in Hopatcong gives out plastic cutters with their GF pies.

Here in town besides Mama's you can get GF pies at Pronto Pizza by Shop Rite and Davila's on Main St.. I'm sure there are more, but those are two others I'm aware of. Enzo's Pasta Grill also has a variety of Gluten-free pasta offerings.

Phil D. Phil D.
Dec '19

Bug3

Really, still? You obviously haven't read ANY of the articles I posted links to or what I wrote summarizing the issues about the differences between sensitivity, intolerance and actual wheat allergies. The proteins that become gluten when mixed with water are what the autoimmune reaction is actually to, presenting as sensitivity or intolerance, which is why the testing is for the Gliadin protein antibody, not an actual wheat gluten antibody. Wheat allergy itself is a whole nother ball of wax and needs to be tested for and diagnosed by an allergist. YOU are misunderstanding the facts, I imagine partly because of the use of the term "Gluten", rather than Gliadin or the other protein involved. Even celiac.org actually refers to it as gluten-containing foods, rather than by the two proteins involved. In a high humidity region, wheat flour doesn't really store well as the proteins combine with water in the atmosphere starting the reaction before mixing actually occurs purposefully. Not only that, but as soon as flour hits your mouth it mixes with the water in your saliva forming gluten - duh.

If you can link scientific papers or actual medical site info stating what you're claiming then fine, otherwise you just continue to look like a fool.

Strangerdanger

"Leaky gut syndrome" is a controversial topic. Some such as the Canadian Society for Gastrointestinal Research say it's essentially a myth, though some do have excessive intestinal permeability as a symptom of other diseases, but that it's likely not the cause of other diseases, etc.:

https://badgut.org/information-centre/a-z-digestive-topics/leaky-gut-syndrome/

However. this scientific paper examines the issue much more thoroughly and while I haven't read the whole thing completely yet, it does put forth the "Mechanisms of Leaky Gut" from about 1/3 way down the article, which include but aren't limited to Genetics, Autoimmune disorders (such as gluten intolerance), Vitamin D deficiency, Diabetes, stress, alcoholism, etc. They believe that probiotics, to increase and protect the gut flora may result in repairing the issue thereby helping heal some autoimmune disorders, inflammation and various intestinal issues.

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC5440529/

The main known issue in so-called gluten intolerance is the damaging of the intestinal villi which are responsible for transferring the nutrients, including vitamins and minerals into your system, similar to the alveoli in your lungs which absorb the oxygen you breath in to transfer it to your blood. Whatever you take "into" your body by these means aren't truly "in" your body until they pass through the villi, alveoli or through an ulcer into your bloodstream directly. To be indelicate, what you poop is water, the remnants of undigested food and insoluble fiber, modified soluble fiber, dead cells, intestinal mucus and living and dead bacteria. If you have an intestinal ulcer or other disorder you may have occult or visible blood in the stool too, but that's mostly the only thing that's part of your actual body internals that normally can make its way out of the body.

Phil D. Phil D.
Dec '19

An allergy is still an auto-immune reaction. It's the immune system reacting to something it does not need to.

In fact, even seasonal allergies are auto-immune reactions, releasing histamines for no needed reason.

JeffersonRepub JeffersonRepub
Dec '19

JR

True that, but a different type of reaction and allergists will normally tell you that, as they've told me. That's why I spoke of (and the articles mention an autoimmune disease, as opposed to a true allergic response). Allergists don't treat gluten intolerance, nor do they normally test for it. There's no "magic pill" to take that suppresses your immune system in order for there not to be a response to gluten, nor can you take an antihistamine nor use an Epi-pen to not have a reaction or damage from the proteins. The only treatment is complete removal of proto-gluten proteins/gluten from the diet. It has been found in some cases that if one stays gluten-free long enough, sometimes gluten may slowly be introduced back into the diet and the body won't respond to it in the same way. I haven't seen anyone come up with a reason for that either.

The capsules I spoke of before are only enzyme extractions which have been seen to be beneficial in breaking down the proteins while still in your stomach before they reach the intestinal tract to do their damage. The 3 I tried do not work that well for me and I'm only at the G-sensitive level, although the newer recognized NCGD or whatever the abbreviation is may better describe my own issues since I actually tested strongly positive for the antibodies, but didn't show the usual amount of damage via endoscopic exam.

While autoimmune diseases and allergies are similar in many ways, the reactions provoked in the body are different because different parts of the immune system are triggered. They are doing interesting research on the idea that autoimmune disorders may be either triggered, enabled and/or enhanced by allergies.

Here's a good link that explains both the similarities and the differences of both:

https://www.benaroyaresearch.org/blog/post/connecting-dots-between-allergies-and-autoimmune-disease

Phil D. Phil D.
Dec '19

I've read and heard that if one is Gluten intolerant (or Celiac), that one is also Milk intolerant or Lactose/Whey/Casein reactive.

Hackresident Hackresident
Dec '19

Some good points that make me think, even if just theories or comments at whim. Maybe years ago people didn't eat so much processed food. Maybe there weren't so many chemicals all over. Who knows? I do know that I grew up around chocolate, peanuts, and gluten, but now it's like you can't throw a ball without someone saying they're allergic. Why were peanuts and chocolate okay in schools years ago,but now it's like you're bringing in uranium? Baffling. I'm not saying it's in people's heads. I have an intolerance to some food items. I wouldn't say allergic. I know someone that tells restaurants she's allergic to tomatoes. She's not. She doesn't like seeds. Why make people tip toe around your 'allergy' when it's not true? I like to listen to everyone's theories, though. Monsanto and Bayer - so true. Just don't write off people if it comforts them. To each their own.

DogDayAfternoon
Dec '19

In the Iron Age, when we had no modern diseases, you might live an average of 26 years. IOW --- none of us would be penning these tomes.

In the 1600's, in America, when we had no modern allergies, you would make 35 years.

In 1945, even with Bayer, you would make about 65 years.

Today, with all these terrible, awful, diseases, and the according terrible, unproven, and potentially risky, medicines, remedies, and lifestyle choices, you get 79 years.

Mic drop.

strangerdanger strangerdanger
Dec '19

"mic drop" HAHAHAHA

No one is arguing that modern (western) medicine hasn't made great strides.... of course it has. We are talking about apples, you bring up oranges. (and, it can easily be shown, western medicine has also had it pitfalls.... even today, 250,000 people per year die due to medical malpractice/infections gotten in hospitals).... "they giveth, and they taketh away..."

https://www.cnbc.com/2018/02/22/medical-errors-third-leading-cause-of-death-in-america.html

JeffersonRepub JeffersonRepub
Dec '19

DogDayAfternoon - Well either that or the base idea that none of this happened years ago is just wrong. I grew up knowing a neighbor that went through a horrible time and was diagnosed with celiac. It's way before the time period today's kids are saying it never existed. Celiac was known in Roman times.

StrangerDanger - Phil D has given you a good share of information, but I'll add this. To some extent "leaky gut" is the universal answer in search of lots of people's snake oil cures. From experience in on line forums dealing with Chrohn's/Colitis dozen of people say they have a 100% cure. Most of them all blame "leaky gut" as a cause and they have the cure for it. Same people on forums have proposed the same "cures" for celiac, IBS, diabetes, GERD, cancer, polyps, and more.


Isn't a lot of the average lifespan data skewed by infant mortality rates. Not saying your wrong about how important modern meds are just that if you could make it as a baby you were most likely living longer than those statistics. Also my only comment so Phil d doesn't have to make another new thread.

Yesimpc Yesimpc
Dec '19

"Isn't a lot of the average lifespan data skewed by infant mortality rates."

Excellent point!!!

JeffersonRepub JeffersonRepub
Dec '19

Wow, heavy editing....They left me in and now I look even crazier than usual. Really baying at the moon...

Everything has issues, JR. Medicine, engineering, religion, even you, even I. You just can’t throw the baby out with the bathwater because you have an example. I grow weary of the vaccines are unnecessary and hurt you, diseases are made up and didn’t used to exist, etc. opinions in search of a fact.

Just because we weren’t aware of Celiac Disease doesn’t mean it wasn’t more or less prevalent, or did not exist. You have to research.

Likewise, while you are right re: life expectancy starting post birth, say 5 yrs old, will return different results; you fail to mention that the trend will be very similar. You have to research.

Gut diseases have been with us forever. They may be getting worse, maybe not. Medicines help. Diet helps. And perhaps everything seems trending up just for the mere fact we stay alive longer. The fact mistakes are made in medicine or statistics does not change that.

Thanks GC, that’s my read too. Yet I think it is a real disease, just not yet in the medical world. May be a couple of things going on. I also agree, but can not prove, that many modern agriculture and food processing techniques are screwing us up. Wish we would fund folks to investigate. Expensive but worth it.

Strangerdanger Strangerdanger
Dec '19

SD,

You're not talking to ME... I DO believe in all of it: celiac exists, vaccines CAN hurt people, and the medical industry heals AND kills people. I'm not throwing anything out LOL

Remember... I have chronic lyme, another disease many people believe is "made up"...

JeffersonRepub JeffersonRepub
Dec '19

Jefferson Republic: Read about Mycoplasma and 'lyme'. did you try the antibiotic doxycycline?

Hackresident Hackresident
Dec '19

https://www.bing.com/search?q=mycoplasma+lyme+disease&form=IE11TR&src=IE11TR&pc=EUPP_DCJB

mycoplasma and lyme disease.

do a Google search, too.

Hackresident Hackresident
Dec '19

HR: I did 2 courses of doxy. Along with a chinese herbal protocol. It worked, but... nothing kills lyme spirochetes, they "hide", and are with you forever. It's similar to how you get mono but then keep it forever, and in later life comes out as epstein-barre syndrome. Or chicken pox as a kid, then shingles as an adult.

The link you provided is about one of the co-infections (there are 8 known co-infections with lyme), of which I luckily had none.

JeffersonRepub JeffersonRepub
Dec '19

Of course I was talking to you; didn't you see your name JR? I was talking crazy to you since the other fellows taking the lead that I lumped you in with magically dropped off in a fit a editing and erasure making me look even crazier than usual. Baying at the moon actually. I hath been gaslighted :>)

Sorry, and sorry for the lyme. Remember a good friend with half a frozen face for years, maybe forever. It was real.

Yet, you got tossed in for "vaccines CAN hurt people, and the medical industry heals AND kills people. I'm not throwing anything out LOL." I agree that skepticism is healthy, that errors happen, that there is risk in everything. However, when skepticism turns into disbelief where one stops taking vaccines or avoiding the medical industry, and thereby putting others at higher risks, that's the lunacy I am talking to.

As to your statistics; big bold faced large numbers like that always demand scrutiny to be put into context. What, no decimal points, how could that be real :>) When the same stats plastered across the media-sphere, it should give you pause to consider. Your stats come from a pretty weak John Hopkins study in 2016, reported in the BMJ and picked up by the world. If you looked a bit further, you would see much contradiction about said study:

https://sciencebasedmedicine.org/are-medical-errors-really-the-third-most-common-cause-of-death-in-the-u-s-2019-edition/

https://sciencebasedmedicine.org/are-medical-errors-really-the-third-most-common-cause-of-death-in-the-u-s/

In fact, the real issue about malpractice ISN'T how big it is, it's that we really don't know how big it is or what the components are. That was at the root of all these "studies," "reports," etc. but that was not picked up in the media-sphere regurgitations as the problem, the mind boggling "malpractice is the third biggest cause of death" was.

To close, like I said, mr.-fact-based here believes that therer is something to "leaky gut," that modern science disputes this basically because they have not looked. It's not that the symptoms don't exist, it's that the disease has not been discovered. Until someone proves that the symptoms have a "disease home,", I have that "leaky gut" tin foil hat pulled down tight and firm. Although not tight enough to try the home-baked, half-baked remedies. That's why celiac, Chrohn's, and colitis are important for me to understand, especially the differences.

strangerdanger strangerdanger
Dec '19

"However, when skepticism turns into disbelief where one stops taking vaccines or avoiding the medical industry"


I never said either. Watch your assumptions.

JeffersonRepub JeffersonRepub
Dec '19

It was a general statement. I don’t know how many times I can say it’s not all about you. Sorry.

Strangerdanger Strangerdanger
Dec '19

Maybe its the wheat...they enhanced the seeds for more production...just like corn, tomatoes, peanuts....

Bug3
Dec '19

Re: Celiac Disease & Gluten Free Thread

Dinner tonight...an Udi's Barbecue Chicken Gluten-Free Pizza with sweet potato crust. Not bad, though I do like the Cauliflower crust and Freschetta's crust a bit better. On a side note, the front only looks burnt, due to the backlighting from the oven's light. It was browned and lightly crunchy on the edge, just the way I like them.

Phil D. Phil D.
Jan '20

Phil D. Aldi has take and bake (not frozen) cauliflower crust pizzas people rave about just an FYI. Also, if you're ever looking to give up that tasty little Pyrex casserole I spy there.... Loooool! Jk... No but seriously... :)

Weebiekins Weebiekins
Jan '20

Weebiekins

I started collecting "Butterfly Gold" Corningware when I worked at Rickel in the early 80's with the intent of having it ready for getting married. That fell through, but I kept and added to my collection. Maybe a set of salt & pepper shakers or butter dish with top that I have a second of, but unlikely I'll part with them, til, you know the cold dead hands time, LOL!

Thanks for the tip on Aldi's should I ever go there!

Phil D. Phil D.
Jan '20

Lol... I feel you on that Phil D. I do not part with mine either :)

Weebiekins Weebiekins
Jan '20

I summered on Lake Seneca, visited Corning yearly, and started my corn pattern Corning Ware in the 70’s. Weird thing for a guy, might be a disease, but I love a well architected kitchen tool or dish so I invested in factory store stock. Over the years, I tried aluminum-cladded, air-pocketed griddles, glass frying pans, anything that had a corn pattern emblem. Even though none of their experiments worked, I was to be rich on my invested collection.

Added to it starting 30 years ago from Flemington.

Then they opened up their exclusive distribution to the Wall-marts of the world, the price dropped, everyone had them, and then they sold the division to the Japanese.

So I moved to Calphalon collecting when they really sold real restaurant gear. Same story but I got smarter and stopped buying when they went mainstream. Have some huge 18 inchers with restaurant strength aluminum.

It’s weird, but I do love a good kitchen tool, dish, whatever. My dual racks of calphalon are a thing of beauty.

Now, if want to talk China........

Strangerdanger Strangerdanger
Jan '20

I hesitated to respond to this thread, but I suppose I can’t help myself.

Having a leaky gut is an actual real diagnosis. These aren’t theories anymore. There is enough research and scientific data to back it up now. Certain foods (gluten and actually other grains and foods as well being major contributors) trigger zonulin, which in turn causes the tight junctions in the intestinal wall to become permeable. This will trigger an autoimmune response and inflammation in the body. I can nerd out a whole bunch and get into the geeky science of it all, but I will spare everyone the details.

You do NOT have to have celiac disease to be affected by this. Please keep in mind the grains we are consuming now are no longer the same grains we were consuming thousands of years ago. We have polluted our food supply terribly. I can go on an on with statistics and the drastic increase our western society is seeing In PCOS, type II diabetes, cancer and autoimmune disorders over the course of even just the last 30 years. Obesity is an epidemic, and MANY of our illness is stemming from terrible diets (think SAD - standard American diet. Thanks, HHS and the U.S. Department of Agriculture). They are pushing grains and soy. These foods are TERRIBLE on the body. Estrogen is an enormous contributor to cancer as well has hormonal disfunction. You want to get sick, diabetes, man boobs, and fat? Eat what our government is recommending. It’s done so well for us all these years, hasn’t it? Our society is full of diseased, obese people. Our medical care system has become a sick care system. Sadly, most people don’t want to do the work though. They want a pill or a cream to fix their ailment. I won’t even get into the side effects of all the drugs people are willing to take, and once you go that route you are looking at needing more drugs down the road to counteract the negative affects of the ones you started with. It’s a tragedy to me knowing that so much of what we are popping pills and having surgeries for can actually be corrected with dietary Changes.

Our bodies were not designed to consume copious amounts of sugar or plants. If you have digestive issues or inflammation look there first.

I’m going to take a lot of flack for saying this, but we have been lied to for a LONG time. Tell me to put my tin foil hat on, but I have done TONS of research on this subject. All you have to do is go back to 70-80 years ago and look into the history of our dietary recommendations and the organizations created to push that agenda. These ideas weren’t created for our well being. There have been vested interests along the way throughout history.

I highly recommend the books “Estrogeneration” and “The Case Against Sugar” if you’re interested in learning more about our over-exposure to estrogen and it’s terrible and dangerous affect on us and the history of sugar and why our government began pushing it on us over 70 years ago as a “health food.” Please take the time to look into these things if you are dealing with chronic health problems, inflammation, or hormonal issues.

Also, I thought a lot of this was “nut job” stuff years ago. I have my own story of illness and recovery. Several years straight of antibiotics for Lyme disease in my teen years was the beginning of my journey, eating lots of plants and not knowing the affects of oxalates, lectins, saponins, glucosinolates, etc., then one autoimmune diagnosis after another. I was handed one diagnosis and prescription after another. I was 36 and felt like I was barely living. I thought I was being healthy with my diet, but I was only creating more inflammation... it took some work, but I received that blessed news a few months ago - remission. I did it without the drugs. I changed my diet instead. It had been so long since I’d felt well (20 years) I had actually forgotten what that was like. I will never go back to that life. I’m sharing because if this helps even one person out of their cycle of living in misery it will be worth it.

God bless.

Megan Megan
Jan '20

Megan,
I agree with everything you say. After becoming aware of lectins, I got an Instant Pot because I learned that pressure cooking destroys lectins, and since I am a vegetarian I consume a lot of beans. The pressure cooking removes/destroys the lectins. I also ate soy products but when became educated of the dangers of too much soy I now only eat it sparingly. I love rice but try to eat more of quinoa, kasha (buckwheat) and barley. I am very interested in what kind of diet you follow if you are willing to share.

happiest girl
Jan '20

Standing ovation Megan!!!

Diet is everything: we are what we eat. And yes, pills treat symptoms, not causes. They are never a solution as they merely mask the underlying problem.

justintime justintime
Jan '20

I agree 100% with you Megan!

Hackresident Hackresident
Jan '20

+1 Meghan even though I don’t understand much. Is there a place, a book, I can find your diet? Are there supplements?

Strangerdanger Strangerdanger
Jan '20

Happiest girl - I am glad to hear you say that as a vegetarian you are aware of these things. I have met MANY recovering vegans who lost their menstrual cycle (this is a signal to the body that something is wrong) or have become severely deficient in nutrients (losing their teeth, hair falling out, major digestive distress). It is extremely difficult to consume a vegan/vegetarian (without proper supplementation) diet long term without doing sometimes irreparable harm to the body. That being said, I was VERY plant based for a long time, unknowingly causing more and more harm to myself, thinking that plants would give me the “best bang for my buck” when it came to micronutrient values. I couldn’t understand why I was getting sicker and sicker...I know this will upset some people, but I had a friend who had a seizure disorder and put it in remission using the Carnivore diet. As a nutritionist, this went against everything I was taught. I did my own research, and discovered it isn’t actually fat making us fat or clogging our arteries and causing CVD. I didn’t know that cholesterol actually serves a protective function in our bodies. Our cells are MADE of cholesterol! It’s inflammation and grains as well as sugar (even an over abundance of sugars from fruit). I had no idea that micronutrients are in the most bioavailable form in animal products and that the chemical makeup of plants will actually inhibit the absorption of the minerals they contain... I took the plunge and cut out the plants. My life changed within 3 days. It was like a miracle. I haven’t looked back since.

Megan Megan
Jan '20

The one thing I have learned in all my years of researching diet and health: there are no rules, because everyone is different.

Some people can smoke for 75 years, and die of old age. Some people can never smoke, and die of lung cancer.

Some people can be overweight alcoholics, and die of old age. Others can be vegetarian exercisers and die of heart disease.

The whole thing can be very tricky. Megan gave a good example above, with the carnivore diet. I also know 2 people who have gotten rid of a myriad of health issues with the carnivore diet. Makes no "sense", according to the "general knowledge" of today, but the results can't be argued.

Finding what works FOR YOU seems to be the key; because everyone is different. And even if the thing works for you because of a placebo affect, it still WORKS, and that's all that matters. A placebo may be a "fake" cure, but if it works, it is not a "fake" effect.

Wait, there's 2 things... here's #2:
DON'T BLINDY TRUST "FACTS" BECAUSE "A STUDY FINDS". Studies have been shown over and over again to be riddled with manufacture funding/bias, as well as confirmation bias and data manipulation. "A study finds" means almost nothing these days, unfortunately.

JeffersonRepub JeffersonRepub
Jan '20

JR - I agree completely. Epidemiological studies will ALWAYS be flawed. It’s impossible for that not to be the case. Too many variables. However, we can combine those with anecdotal stories and also blood markers as well as symptoms. My point is you must have a combined approach and look at different angles.

Also, the reason the carnivore diet works is truly not a mystery. We are genetically different. Our DNA is our own blueprint. That being said, a strict carnivore diet is about the lowest inflammatory approach one can take (you may also have to account for histamine issues too and factor that in). Meat does not have the toxins that plants do. I’m not saying you can’t be healthy on a plant based diet. You certainly can if you do it the right way. It needs to be executed very carefully. If you are not sensitive to the toxins plants contain (it is their defense mechanism - they don’t want to be eaten. Animals have claws and teeth. Plants have their own methods of defense) and you do not have high inflammatory markers or an overly permeable gut you could be just fine.

However, most people in this country do not have restful sleep, manage stress properly, have some history of disease (Lyme disease, cancer, etc.), don’t eat to nourish their bodies and also can suffer from possible environmental exposures (mold, heavy metals, etc.) they may not even be aware of. All of these factors are enough to create “the perfect storm” in one’s body. The carnivore diet is a drastic approach for most, but when you hit rock bottom and have tried EVERYTHING else sometimes it’s worth trying the drastic approach.

Megan Megan
Jan '20

I forgot to include nutrient deficiencies in that list.

Megan Megan
Jan '20

"Meat does not have the toxins that plants do."


Well, that's a pretty broad statement.... depends on the meat and plants of course. We are in pretty much total agreement.... I was just trying to point out that, while one "doctor" will say vegan is the way to go, another will tout the carnivore diet. They can't both be right... or can they? Perhaps both are right AND wrong.... partially.... and depending on the individual.

This doctor says this, that doctor says that, the other doctor says the other....

There is no "one right way". Only for each individual. I am highly suspicious of any theory touting one right way. Which is what they all do, of course... that's how you sell diet and health books LOL. Me, personally, I put a lot of weight in moderation in all things.... I don't tee-total anything, except known dangers such as chemicals and food additives. And meds, whenever possible. And even then, it's virtually impossible to eliminate them 100%.

JeffersonRepub JeffersonRepub
Jan '20

The other items you mention.... sleep, stress, etc.... that's a whole 'nuther thread!

JeffersonRepub JeffersonRepub
Jan '20

Thanks JR for the fully complete non-answer answer.... Now I got it: don't trust anything and everyone is different. Check.

Meghan: so you are not exactly on a "leaky gut" diet but instead, a carnivore non-plant diet?

Here's one view for leaky gut (spoiler alert: I see broccoli): https://www.healthline.com/nutrition/leaky-gut-diet

strangerdanger strangerdanger
Jan '20

“The other items you mention.... sleep, stress, etc.... that's a whole 'nuther thread!”

Perhaps, but our body functions as a whole unit, running most efficiently only when all of these factors are being considered.

And to clarify, by the way, “meat” is not all the same. Conventionally raised and farmed animal products are SIGNIFICANTLY different than those that are raised responsibly. That isn’t even debatable when you look at the micronutrient structure comparing the two.

Megan Megan
Jan '20

I don’t love Wikipedia for several reasons, but I know some people do:

Please scroll down to glucosinolates. https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Antinutrient#Examples

You can even click on goitrogens. Vegetables are NOT all they’re cracked up to be. Broccoli is no exception.

Megan Megan
Jan '20

Broccoli is filled with lots of wonderful vitamins and minerals. You can google that all day.

But combine that information with this:
https://www.kevinstock.io/health/vitamins-and-minerals-plants-vs-animals/

Megan Megan
Jan '20

Well I guess to each his/her own. I've done well for 45 years as a vegetarian. Both the cooking process and fermentation increase the bio-availability of nutrients in plant foods. I would be more concerned about an animal-based diet. It's no secret that meats,fish & poultry are filled with hormones, mercury, dioxins, antibiotics, PAHs, clembuterol, elbenzopirene, etc.
It is also well known that the foods which eliminate toxins in the body are plant foods like lemons, apples, onions, spices, olive oil, grapes, etc.

happiest girl
Jan '20

+100 Megan. I am in the middle of the autoimmune battle and have absolutely found that diet is the key. I have been to so many doctors who definitely mean well but are not trained on how critical diet is.

It saddens me to think of how many years I wasted having medical issues and ended up figuring the diet thing solely by doing research on my own.

Would you mind if I sent you a PM?

Jules Jules
Jan '20

Jules - Feel free to PM. I love being able to help people.

happiest girl - I agree entirely with what you’re saying about conventionally raised animals but not when the animals are raised and cared for properly.

There can be benefits when consuming certain plants foods, but sadly this isn’t the case for people who are sensitive to them, have a leaky gut, autoimmune disorders, thyroid dysfunction, low testosterone, insulin resistance, estrogen issues, etc. which unfortunately is an exponentially growing number of people in our population.

To each his own. I only mean to share because there are SO many people out there who are dealing with these serious issues and many more and just aren’t educated on an alternative that could change their life for the better.

Megan Megan
Jan '20

Fun fact - PCOS, which is drastically affecting the female population in the last 30 years, is essentially an insulin resistance syndrome. If you or someone you know is struggling with this or trying to become pregnant you can easily correct it without drugs. Look into this. Women are reversing this disease by leaps and bounds with dietary changes. I’ve met MANY of them; I’ll take the anecdotal evidence here any day.

Megan Megan
Jan '20

"Perhaps, but our body functions as a whole unit, running most efficiently only when all of these factors are being considered.

And to clarify, by the way, “meat” is not all the same. Conventionally raised and farmed animal products are SIGNIFICANTLY different than those that are raised responsibly. That isn’t even debatable when you look at the micronutrient structure comparing the two."



Hmm... I feel like you think I am disagreeing with you; I am not.

I never said sleep et al didn't matter, I said it was a whole other discussion, since this thread is about DIET, Celiac and gluten sensitivity specifically.

And yes- all meat is not the same... nor are all vegetables; that's why I said "it depends" on the meat and vegetables. ;)

JeffersonRepub JeffersonRepub
Jan '20

JR - things get lost in translation here. I do not feel like you’re disagreeing with me. In fact, I’ve seen your posts in this forum for years now, and my sentiments are very frequently right in line with yours. I added that actually to clarify for others, not you.

Megan Megan
Jan '20

All good. Maybe someday we can start a "whole body health" thread, lol.... because you are of course correct: it is a system, with every part of it heavily relying on the other parts. It can be very challenging and confusing at times, trying to figure out what-is-causing-what, or what-is-helping-what. It's a lifelong journey; never ending.

JeffersonRepub JeffersonRepub
Jan '20

Megan,

Your information is amazing and so scarily accurate. I would love to see you speak somewhere, like one of the local libraries. Have you ever done that, or maybe put together a blog or website? Sounds like you have so much to offer so many.

Thank you for what you have written so far, really interesting.


Suze - very kind of you to say. No, I haven’t considered it. I assumed most people are still in the mindset of “eating low fat oatmeal for breakfast with skim milk and fruit” being a healthy meal.

(That concept to me is horrific, by the way. It’s a bow full of glorified sugar.

Megan Megan
Jan '20

Wow, this thread has really been hijacked. I was hoping to learn about some gluten free places to eat, new gluten free foods, and medical information about celiac disease. Too bad.

Pamela Pamela
Jan '20

Pamela - my apologies. I only meant to let people know because I myself am sensitive to gluten, and when I went down this path I discovered there was more to it than that. Others engaged, so I thought it was ok to respond. (And sometimes when I try to start a new thread I’m told by the moderator not to and to stick to the original one).

So my contribution is this: meat is gluten free. Liver is a complete nutritional powerhouse. Enjoy!

Megan Megan
Jan '20

Pamela,
I know. What is more disturbing is that Megan is throwing out some blanket statements that are not true.
Saying people who have thyroid dysfunctions, and people who have leaky gut, should not eat plant foods is a downright falsehood. I'm sure people with these conditions know that, but it's not right to give false information.
She also provided a link written by someone named Kevin Stock -- I didn't get far into it when I stopped reading as he falsely said the vitamins B12, D3, K2 are not found in plant food. His name has "Dr." before it, he should know better.
K2 is in fermented foods like sauerkraut and natto. B12 is actually produced by bacteria and micro-organisms in soil. So it is present on the surface of lightly washed vegetables as well as in foods like nutritional yeast, mushrooms, tempeh, natto, and nori. D3 is found in several mushrooms including portobella, maitake and chanterelle.

Pamela, if you are ever in or near Newton, stop in at the Sussex Food Co-op on Moran Street. They have gluten free foods --- give them a call to see what they have: 973-579-1882.

happiest girl
Jan '20

Happiest girl - I did NOT say people with thyroid disfunction should not eat ANY plant foods, and I do not believe that. I also did not say that people with leaky gut should not eat ANY plant foods.

The should not consume gluten at the very least and in some cases any type of grains.

Please do not put words in my mouth.

Also, mushrooms are fungi, not plants, and I have nothing against them.

This is not a one size fits all approach for people. There are so many factors, and we are all different.

I don’t have time at the moment to address everything you said, but there is quite a bit more nuance here that I cannot get into, especially related to the nutrients you just mentioned.

Megan Megan
Jan '20

Would like to add that I’ve been vegetarian for 40 years but suffer thyroid and reproductive issues, my children who were raised vegetarian are suffering digestive issues. My reason for being vegetarian is that I abhor animal cruelty, so I am not happy to consider a carnivorous diet. However, I can’t dismiss what Megan is saying when there is so much accuracy. I still want to maintain a vegetarian diet, however do not want to consume the soy products which I think have contained pesticides and estrogen,etc. I am far from an expert, this is why I am so interested in what Megan has to say.


Is Prozac vegan friendly?

callitlikeIseeit callitlikeIseeit
Jan '20

I don’t want to hijack this thread any longer and for that I apologize. I am happy to engage in this discussion on another thread if anyone would like to do so.

Suze, I know so many recovering vegans/vegetarians. Their stories are very similar to yours. I can get you in touch with these people. I know they’re very happy to share their stories of recovery and regaining their health. Feel free to PM me.

I know this is very hard for some people to hear. Please believe me. I’ve been there.

Megan Megan
Jan '20

Consider reading Dirty Genes. The author makes a case that some foods help certain people, and harm others.

https://www.amazon.com/Dirty-Genes-Breakthrough-Program-Optimize/dp/0062698141

maja2 maja2
Jan '20

Suze, perhaps you and your children's health issues are diet related, or maybe they are not diet related. It just seems that after Megan's initial post, she is heavily pushing meat consumption and avoiding plant food. Look at her answer to Pamela, who asked for new places to eat, and NEW gluten free foods. Megan told her to eat meat and liver.

happiest girl
Jan '20

There is absolutely not a one-size-fits-all solution. As mentioned previously in this thread by others, everyone is different and everyone needs to find the right fit. Vegetables, while full of nutrients, can cause major problems if you are sensitive to them or have certain autoimmune or thyroid issues. Especially with nightshade vegetables and lectins.

And soy can cause a terrible downward spiral in some people. It’s worth taking the time to research and read and educate yourself for whatever ailment you have. Only you know your body best and it might take several tries to find the right solution.

Sending positive vibes to all of us that are trying to find that solution!

Jules Jules
Jan '20

I think everyone is right....kind of.

Celiac, Chrohn’s, etc. are real.

Gluten-free helps many people.

Our food supply, diet, lifespan, and environment are always changing.

We are fat, eat too much, exercise too little.

Leaky gut is acknowledged by many, but not by science/medicine so if the disease does not exist, neither does a cure.

I posted one diet for leaky gut from healthline. It includes vegetables; lots of them. Not sure what healthlines business model is here and how they profit.

I think, not 100% sure, Meghan leans towards meat; uses Dr Strock’s recommendations and seems to work. Would live to hear more in that it’s a little foggy what you are eating/doing. Think Strock may be a dentist and certainly is making a buck here.

Bottom line here is IMHO there is something going on that is similar on many regards to Celiac, etc. but it is not. There is no test, no diagnosis, no magic pill and many find relief in diet changes. Like Chrohn’s, different for different folks. And, who knows, may be a mix of these diseases, different strengths, variations, whatever.

But sharing and experimenting may help others get better. Because this stuff can suck the joy out of living ruining many lives.

Strangerdanger Strangerdanger
Jan '20

I don’t think you have hijacked this thread, Megan. What you have shared may relate to those suffering from Celiacs or similar. It’s important to hear all information even if it isn’t what one might like to hear.


Suze - this is exactly how I feel. I don’t want to get sucked into the confirmation bias trap. I think it’s important to be open. It’s the only way we can truly learn (even if we don’t like the answers we may find). People who are truly wise are willing to listen and also do their own research. We should never follow someone or an ideology blindly. It’s weak minded, and in the long run, you’re only hurting yourself.

I think everyone can agree that it’s important what kind of “gas” we are putting in our tank. Some of us could thrive off of Twinkies (probably not many of us though. Lol). For others, we have more serious issues we need to correct, some of them being due to just a genetic predisposition unfortunately. There is no one size fits all approach. I simply wanted to offer this. As I said before there is so much nuance here. I could write a book. I can’t type out a list of 10 things that will fix all people. It’s important to combine a very detailed history, lab work and also symptoms. It’s very uniquely individual.

However, there are certain facts when it comes to nutrition. You cannot argue with nutrient content in combination with bioavailablity (or lack thereof). Sugar is poison. I don’t know anyone who would still argue otherwise in this day and age...

I’m rabbit trailing. Anyway, like I said, I love helping people. I’m happy to do so. That is my own agenda. I can’t help but share what I’ve learned and experienced. It’s very difficult to watch people suffering knowing they could be enjoying life if they were only willing to try and challenge their own view points a little.

Megan Megan
Jan '20

Maja... that is very interesting! Thanks for the tip on the book!

JeffersonRepub JeffersonRepub
Jan '20

"Sugar is poison."


You know..... hmm... I can't disagree.... much.... with that. BUT: I have seen some people take it to the EXTREME that even fruit sugar (as in, eating an orange) is bad. That's poppycock. But processed sugar, being put into virtually everything we eat? Yes: VERY BAD. the amount of sugar we ingest is astonishing, and a HUGE cause of many health issues...

I eat oranges. I drink OJ very rarely. I eat apples. I drink apple juice never. Just because sugar, in excess, is very bad (and it IS), doesn't mean we throw the baby out with the bathwater and ban all fruit from out diets (and to be clear, I am not saying YOU are saying that; but some people "out there" are...)

JeffersonRepub JeffersonRepub
Jan '20

OJ is about as much natural sugar as you can get. Certainly moderation called for.

Apple juice: forget the sugar. Look for the source. Most US aj from concentrate is from China. You got bigger things than sugar to worry about on that one. Kosher brands are US, but being Kosher are basically par boiled, more concentrated because of that, more sugar I think. There are only a couple of US brands, one from NYS. Usually not from concentrate. Little more expensive, but better than facing China’s pollution in your Aj. Grape juice - Welches all US I think. And the Kosher stuff is like double-strength.

Strangerdanger Strangerdanger
Jan '20

I believe eating the whole fruit is the way to go. Drink clean water.
Apples are amazing -- but only buy the organic ones. Remember the saying "an apple a day keeps the doctor away" or "an apple before bed keeps the doctor from earning his bread"
Here is an informative 3 minute video:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BTIAdBhJ8wc

happiest girl
Jan '20

great video. i was told to eat a large granny smith a day....need to go back to that.

Hackresident Hackresident
Jan '20

Hackresident -- Why specifically Granny Smiths?

Megan -- Well, your link from Kevin Stock says the vitamins are not in plant food -- only in animals. Mushrooms are not animals. Mushrooms are closer to plants than animals if you ask me!!!!!!
You can find them in the produce section of your supermarket, not the meat section.
lol

happiest girl
Jan '20

lowest sugar content, I remember . maybe because it's a bit tart?

Hackresident Hackresident
Jan '20

hackresident -- looked it up and research says the granny smith phytonutrient properties suggest they might have particularly potent antimutation properties. Also the high polyphenol content of granny smith apples changed the proportions of good bacteria in the colon. For those counting carbs, they are lower in carbs than other apples, and yes, lower in sugar.
Did a doctor tell you to eat granny smiths? If so I would be interested to know what doctor that is as most doctors are not knowledgeable about such nutritional nuances.

happiest girl
Jan '20

It was many moons ago. I don't recall.

Watch all the supermarkets have a shortage of granny smith apples now - LOL.

Hackresident Hackresident
Jan '20

happiest girl -

Mushrooms are fungi. If you’d like to begin a debate over what I’ve said I’m happy to continue this on another thread. I’m well aware of where it is kept in the grocery store.

As far as this subject matter goes, I’m very well informed and have my own experience as well as that of others who suffer from autoimmunity, food sensitivities, gluten sensitivity, rheumatoid arthritis, hormonal disorders and a host of other medical issues. This is my bread and butter (no pun intended).

I’m sorry it angers you that meat is more nutrients dense and less inflammatory than plants. If you feel good eating the way you do, that’s wonderful! However, there is a quickly growing percentage of the population who are being sold a bill of goods about how they should be eating and all the while getting sicker and sicker and depending more and more on drugs when if they just knew how to heal themselves nutritionally speaking their lives could change drastically for the better.

If you are sensitive to foods, it isn’t always just the artificial stuff like dyes and processed foods. Plants have lectins, Oxalates and other toxins that are actually inflammatory and damaging to the body for some people. I put this information out there because I’ve been able to heal issues I’ve had for 16 years firsthand just by changing my diet. I didn’t need to use any drugs to do it. All they do is treat symptoms the majority of the time. Who wants to be on a steroid this test of their life? Not me! Im not saying this is the best and only diet for everyone, but I’ve met and helped many, many people put countless diseases in remission with this approach. It won’t be long before more and more people discover this. The movement is growing by leaps and bounds. People are getting Perfect CAC (coronary artery calcification score) scores With this diet. It isn’t cholesterol clogging our arteries. It’s inflammatory foods, and whether people like to hear this or not the culprit is most frequently grains and sugar.

Animal products are far more nutrient dense than plants. Please don’t be upset. Instead, do some digging and look into this yourself. You can’t change reality. Nutrients are far more bioavailable in animal products than in plants.

Please scroll down to the chart in this link comparing carrots and apples vs beef and liver. Look at the nutrient values.

https://chriskresser.com/natures-most-potent-superfood/

After you do that, please consider the fact that plants aren’t even a complete protein source. Animals products are superior in that they are a compete source and contain all the essential amino acids.

https://www.healthline.com/nutrition/animal-vs-plant-protein#section7

Then, keep in mind that all those lovely nutrients in plant sources are not even as bioavailable as those in meat. Do you realize how much of that plant matter is running right through your system without those nutrients even being properly absorbed into your bloodstream?

I am glad you’re feeling well I’m your diet, but that isn’t the case for everyone. For some people the grains, the plants, and all the carbohydrates (anyone here with insulin resistance?) are poison. It’s just a fact. I’ll take the anecdotal evidence of the women I help and meet any day over all the government funded studies you want to throw at me. They have a vested interest, and anyone who doesn’t see that is either blind or doesn’t care to know the truth.

Do some digging. Research. Get the facts. Look Back at the history of food in this country and remember what we’ve been told to eat for the last 30 years, and then tell me why the people who have been following that Healthy diet keep getting sicker, fatter, diabetic, arthritic, and dying of heart disease?

Megan Megan
Jan '20

Happiest girl- Also, before you discredit Stock’s link I posted, he mentioned those nutrients not being available in plants because they are an extremely inefficient source if at all. Do you know how many dirty, unwashed vegetables grown in human fecal matter you’d have to eat in a day to get an adequate amount of vitamin B12? Unless you want to eat unwashed vegetables that have been grown in human manure (study done in Iran in 1988 showing a significant amount of B12 in the soil where produce was grown and fertilized with human manure), you’re not getting enough B12 that way. This nutrient is found most abundantly in animal products.

Also, vitamin D3 is NOT in mushrooms. He was correct. D2 is in mushrooms. There is a difference. D3 is actually more effective at raising vitamin D levels in the body than D2, and the liver metabolizes them both differently.

Megan Megan
Jan '20

Being passionate about good health is helpful, promoting consuming more animal products that demand heavy resource use is just really not helpful to the world.

kepa
Jan '20

Kepa - There is a lot of false information out there about this sadly:

https://meatrx.com/library/meat-and-the-environment/

Megan Megan
Jan '20

There are many plant foods that have superior nutritional profiles compared to animal foods. To say otherwise is foolish.
Research the most nutrient dense foods and you will see a list full of plant foods.
But I think you know that, and just have an agenda.

Kepa is correct about the huge resources needed to supply animals as food.
You would best be served reading websites containing scientific research ---- rather than the one you posted -- " Meat Rx "--- really??!!
The fact that you keep on coming here after saying you don't want to hijack the thread --- and saying you will start another thread but you don't -- says it all.

I'm not saying some people don't need to avoid certain foods because of health problems -- but you seem to be promoting a false idea that plant foods are at the bottom of the totem pole when the opposite is true.

happiest girl
Jan '20

Happiest girl- I had no intention of hijackjng the thread, but I did want to respond to the things you said to me, and I think that’s fair. You tried to discredit my source as well as me. I struggle when I see false information like what you posted about D3 and B12 and then accusing me of pushing meat as an agenda. I’m pushing meat because it heals!

I have researched these subjects for years and continue to. I don’t think you looked at some of the links I posted based on what you said regarding the comparison between plants and animals and nutrient density and nutrient values. I’m not against plants. I’m for seeing people heal and knowing there are alternatives out there that are not being promoted. I had no intention of responding, but again, I wanted to correct information that was shared.

And also, for the people who were interested in this information, www.meatrx.com is a wonderfully informative FACTUAL website. I can’t say enough about it. You will find hundreds of stories from people who have changed their lives. I’m mentioning this on the celiac thread because many of these people happen to have celiac and gluten sensitivity which will often go hand in hand with other autoimmune conditions.

Megan Megan
Jan '20

Isn’t Stock a Dentist, by training?

Wasn’t his first gig dental sleep apnea devices? Didhe give that up?

Isn’t he also a expert in block chain?

I can see where he gets his nutritional expertise. At the cash register.

Strangerdanger Strangerdanger
Jan '20

LOL, strangerdanger!


Megan - You obviously didn't research. There is nothing false about the information about D3 or B12 that I gave.

D2, D3 & D4 are found in mushrooms, as reported by:

1) the American Society for Biochemistry and Microbiology
2) NCBI (National Center for Biotechnology Information)
3) Dermato-Endocrinology

I'm sure if one looked further into this, one would find additional reports by other established scientific research, but these 3 are certainly good enough for me.

In addition, the foods I mentioned that have B12 are also reported by similar scientific research. Look it up.

Since you claim this information is false, I'm kind of done with you.

happiest girl
Jan '20

More dentists?

I forgot that Dr. Kevin Stock is also, in his words, "a national level physique competitor, and self-experimental researcher and scientist." Hope that doesn't mean he's going blind..... :>)

I think if you follow the money, you will find how he makes his living convincing you what medical science can not.

Not that there's anything wrong with that; if it works for you, God be with you. And this stuff is so spooky, so unclaimed by the scientific and medical communities, I appreciate Megan and Kevin pushing the envelope. The only question is how right or wrong you are, on average, for the rest of us. And it's a given that with Stocks' expertise, training, and research ------- he will ultimately be found to be more wrong than right even if it works perfectly for you.

For example, I believe that if I take 1000Mu's of Vitamin C at the cold's onset, I can either kill it or drastically lessen the effect/time. I know this is impossible, but it works almost every time for me. And OJ won't cut it: I need straight V-c, and a lot of it.

strangerdanger strangerdanger
Jan '20

Happiest girl - I’m happy you have found something that works for you. I’ve done years of research, and I’m happy with what I’ve found in many, many trusted resources and agree to disagree with you. Best wishes in your journey!

:-)

Oh, and by the way, I love learning new things, but I checked your resources and see nothing to corroborate what you’re saying about vitamin D3. Perhaps post a link next time?

Megan Megan
Jan '20

https://www.healthline.com/nutrition/how-to-increase-vitamin-d

As a vegetarian for decades, my D3 levels aren’t consistently low if I don’t take supplements which I am lazy about, unfortunately.

I attached one link which shows that Megan is correct - D2 is in mushrooms not D3. And believe me when I say, I don’t wish to promote a carnivorous diet, but facts are facts.


Here you go, Suze.
And there are other scientific websites containing the same conclusions.

https://www.fasebj.org/doi/abs/10.1096/fasebj.27.1_supplement.794.6

https://www.ncbi.nim.nih.gov/pubmed/24494050

https://www.greenmedinfo.com/blog/decomposing-myth-mushrooms-cant-produce-vitamin-d3

happiest girl
Jan '20

Of course grassfed pastured beef can be helpful to high prarie and sustainably managed land. Can the current meat eating population (plus more, be sustained off of the current amount of land available that would be needed to range these cattle, chickens, or pigs? Unfortunately it doesn't seem possible.
Unless you are unequivocally doing away with factory farming/high carbon demand/extreme high stress animal agriculture, it's a pretty unbalanced need.

kepa
Jan '20

Kepa - I appreciate your perspective, and I think it is interesting to explore indeed.

Joel Salatin is an amazing resource for this. If you’re interested I recommend reading some of his work or watching him in many of the numerous documentaries he’s been in. He is not a carnivore (so don’t worry about that bias) but a sustainable farmer. It’s really beautiful how he treats his animals and his land and the methods he uses to maintain the health of his soil. He’s pretty famous now so you may have already heard of him. A brilliant man who cares deeply for The animals and land.

Megan Megan
Jan '20

Polyface farm is great! Their managed foraging is certainly the opposite of high yield feedlots. The number of farms and type of agriculture would need to change drastically in the US and abroad to return to sustainable and ecologically managed farming. A worthy battle, but if it's at the current rate of "clean energy" promotion - a long one

kepa
Jan '20

Kepa - agreed. What we are doing to our animals and our land is sickening. It’s about $$$ and power. It is so cheap to go conventional, but the lasting effects are massive. I think that’s why it is helpful to frequent our locals farms, and conventional food (whether animal or plant) is so so lacking in quality and nutritional value. It was never meant to be this way. There are ways to stop depleting our resources.

Megan Megan
Jan '20

The fact of the matter is that if Megan is right, humanity would be on a different path altogether. Adam n Eve really didn’t need the garden :-) except to feed the herd The snake wouldn’t finish it’s sin beckoning come hither before being bopped and turned into lunch!

Seriously, this diet is resource intensive including land. Clearly there wouldn’t be enough land. Luckily, it will never catch on in India....

It has the potential to create yet another class distinction where the healthy wealthy get grass fed steaks and the middle class get feedlot biologic special ground round. The only way to accomplish: Soylent Green!

NTW - I don’t expect widespread acceptance.

Strangerdanger Strangerdanger
Jan '20

That's why all the big companies --- Tyson, Perdue, Hormel, Smithfield, Nestle, are all producing plant based foods ....... burgers, meatballs, chicken nuggets, etc. Meat production as we know it is not sustainable.
Not to mention more and more people WANT these plant based foods for many reasons.
Burger King, Red Robin & White Castle run out of the "Impossible Burger" because demand is so high.
Look what has happened to milk -- America's largest producers of milk, Dean Foods and Bordon Dairy, filed for bankruptcy. More and more people are choosing non-dairy milk.

happiest girl
Jan '20

There are probably a half-dozen grains that you can eat when you havae celiac disease or gluten intolerance. You can buy it online and in some supermarkets. There is a lot out there, maybe even Shop Rite. go on vitacost.com , they may sell breads, pasta and cereals. Go to Target; Walmart may have some things. Weis has some but t hey are more expensive.

It's no big deal to avoid gluten. just read labels. find the alternative names for gluten (wheat, rye, oats, barley).

and they say if you are enzyme-deficient for breaking down gluten, you are most likely lactose/whey/casein sensitive too.

Hackresident Hackresident
Jan '20

HG; yes, consumers are interested in vegan, although BK doesn’t promise that given everything cooked on the same grill. BK just copied the Purdue model on getting Americans to pretend they are eating healthier.

Many years ago Purdue found the secret to sell chicken to beef eating Americans. Look n feel. So they pumped those chicks with keratin and fat making them yellow and juicy.

Likewise, BK puts heme in them so they “bleed” red and put in the fat content to the point the Unwhopper fat is in the margin of error of the original Whopper. Look n feel.

And the most fat of any vegan burger. Pass the oil

Pretty soon PROCESSED vegetarian will make us fatter than not eating beef or chicken if we buy it prepared or processed.

Strangerdanger Strangerdanger
Jan '20

Strangerdanger-

Hit the nail right on the head. If you’re going to go vegan you better make sure it’s EXTREMELY clean and be sure to use quality supplements to make up for what you may be deficient in.

You can thrive on numerous ways of eating, but they all require an intelligent approach. Processed ANYTHING is out.

These are the Impossible Burger ingredients: Water, Soy Protein Concentrate, Coconut Oil, Sunflower Oil, Natural Flavors, 2% or less of: Potato Protein, Methylcellulose, Yeast Extract, Cultured Dextrose, Food Starch Modified, Soy Leghemoglobin, Salt, Soy Protein Isolate, Mixed Tocopherols (Vitamin E), Zinc Gluconate, Thiamine Hydrochloride (Vitamin B1), Sodium Ascorbate (Vitamin C), Niacin, Pyridoxine Hydrochloride (Vitamin B6), Riboflavin (Vitamin B2), Vitamin B12

I wouldn’t touch that with a 10 foot pole. The first ingredient is one of the dirtiest crops we have growing in this country. The negative effects of soy consumption are too long a laundry list to go on about. The exposure we have to estrogen (even outside of our food consumption) is staggering. The testosterone levels in men have dropped drastically over the course of the last 30 years alone. Processed garbage.

People hear the word “natural” and automatically assume it’s good for them. Couldn’t be further from the truth. That word is used so loosely when it comes to food packaging. We need to be more informed of what we are putting in and on our bodies.

Garbage in...garbage out.

Megan Megan
Jan '20

there's 3+ different forms of that monosodium glutamate in it: HeadacheCity.

Hackresident Hackresident
Jan '20

some people do fine with soy, whether it be fermented tempeh and natto or even isolated soy protein. Fact.
Some folks are healthy with a fairly processed diet, while of course many are not!
I’d rather eat food that I can have a decent conscience about for my belief system, as long as it doesn’t affect my health in a noticeably negative way, than have my food purchases place a heavy demand on the planet. I’d rather eat venison and locally pastured animals than impossible burgers, sure, but you act like processed chicken nuggets are healthier than a processed plant burger. Not at all.

kepa
Jan '20

I can understand and agree with so much of what you’re saying but when it comes to soy:

If you want to have kids and you’re a man you’d be best backing off of it:

https://academic.oup.com/humrep/article/23/11/2584/2913898

It’s also high in phytates that prevent the absorption of iron, calcium and other nutrients.

It’s also been known to stimulate the growth of estrogen-dependent tumors in breast cancer patients:

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/m/pubmed/11431339/

It’s also high in phytates that prevent the absorption of iron, calcium and other nutrients.

To me, the worst thing about it is the phytoestrogen it contains. It can block normal estrogen, lead to serious hormonal imbalances and breast cancer.

I won’t go into the processing aspect of soy protein isolate. You can google that easily.

Megan Megan
Jan '20

Earth’s Best Gluten Free and Applegate Naturals are pretty good nuggets.

Or make your own.

Strangerdanger Strangerdanger
Jan '20

Yes! Super easy, gluten free, kid friendly nugget recipe:

https://www.paleorunningmomma.com/crispy-paleo-chicken-nuggets/

Megan Megan
Jan '20

How much soy do you have to eat before you turn into a ball-less Dolly Parten that just wants to dance?

Strangerdanger Strangerdanger
Jan '20

The Okinawan diet consists of 80% carbohydrates (sweet potato), plus soy, seaweed and pork. Like all people the Okinawans longevity and general good health is a combination of many factors.
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/m/pubmed/11710358/
My point is that human health is such a complex and individual concern that vilifying a single food can be shortsighted, every study and personal anecdote can be refuted with another, and it really doesn't make sense to say the ingredients of the soy burger you posted are like a health hazard or something. If you ate fast food burgers for every meal, maybe!

kepa
Jan '20

Meat, dairy and poultry are full of hormones and estrogen. Eaten on a daily basis what do you think that does to your health?
Eating clean gmo-free soy products like tempeh, miso, tofu etc. in moderation is not unhealthy.
There is processed genetically engineered soy in the majority of foods Americans eat every day -- hidden in most packages foods including your daily bread.
The typical American diet includes regular heavy consumption of hormone-filled meats, dairy and poultry.
A vegetarian or vegan diet is far healthier.

happiest girl
Jan '20

Conventionally raised Animals in feedlots, pumped full of antibiotics and hormones are extremely unhealthy. I won’t argue against that.

I’m not going to bash a vegan or vegetarian diet as I said from the very beginning some people can thrive On if done properly. You can not deny that if you don’t do this carefully you will be deficient in nutrients. I’m not interested in arguing about this at all.

The Facebook group of over 40,000 people World Carnivore Tribe (many, many of them coming from years on a vegan/vegetarian diet) are thriving on animal products. I know too many women with Hashimoto’s, diabetes, rheumatoid arthritis, chronic Lyme disease and other ailments who are thriving as well. I’m part of that group. Many of these women were infertile or in so much pain they couldn’t work any longer and lost their jobs. The plant based diet (even done very carefully and with consideration of making sure I had the proper nutrients intake) made me sicker and sicker. Oxalates and lectins three me into the worst flares I’d ever experienced. It got to the point that as I eliminated foods I ended up on a purely neat based diet. This is just another perspective I wanted to share because I KNOW others have been able to heal eating this way. These women, many of them, were so ill, they were suicidal at points. When you are in so much pain you can’t even sleep at night it will do things to you.

My kids don’t need to eat the way that I do. They don’t suffer from the issues I have.

As I said before, different people can thrive on different diets. I am only sharing what I know and thousands of other people also know have helped them in ways no other diet could.

I mean no offense. I love watching people heal and thrive. It is my passion.

Megan Megan
Jan '20

The SAD (standard American diet) does NOT include grassfed, pastured animals or sustainably farmed produce.

It includes a ton of grains (which are also used to fatten animals so figure that one out), tons of sugar, processed foods and greasy conventionally raised beef hamburgers, Fruit snacks, Goldfish crackers, Gerber Puffs...filler and trash.

Thyroid function improves on a carnivore diet. Autoimmune related issues generally improve, including Hashimoto’s. Reproductive hormones normalize. Tons of women resolve their PCOS and become fertile finally. Women who have lost their periods (happens very frequently in women who do not include animal products in their diet) will start to get a normal cycle again. How could I ignore all of this? I’m not talking about a handful of people. I’m talking about thousands and thousands.

Megan Megan
Jan '20

“Meat, dairy and poultry are full of hormones and estrogen. Eaten on a daily basis what do you think that does to your health?”

This couldn’t be further from the truth. People with terrible inflammatory markers, clogged arteries, high triglycerides, diabetes and even cancer are posting their current medical tests after several months eating meat, Salt and water and their arteries are clean and bloodwork looks beautiful. They have excellent thyroid function, CAC scores are perfect...I’m trying to understand why you are so against this and why it makes you so angry. I really am. They’re healing themselves without using drugs or supplements. Why not be happy that they’ve found a solution?I’ve seen diabetics drastically reduce their insulin this way and people with debilitating arthritis who could barely walk get up and play with their grandchildren without being in pain. i think it’s a wonderful thing. If being vegetarian or vegan has the same effect that’s wonderful too! I’m just not seeing that the majority of the time unfortunately.

Megan Megan
Jan '20

Sharing what works for you is great! X amount of people in a Facebook group thriving on a self-reported diet is not backing up any basis for concrete health statements, it is anecdotal. There are that many thriving on a group for Mediterranean diet that includes many grains with potentially harmful phytonutrients and vegan diets and juicing-centered diets and so on.
Stating that soy makes you infertile or that many vegans don't get their period is. Not. True.

kepa
Jan '20

"World Carnivore Tribe" has all the hallmarks of a cult.

Facebook founded by Shawn Baker, who had his medical license revoked.

He believes - promotes - a 100% meat diet with only water & salt . NO vegetables, fruit, carbohydrates, grains.
OYE

https://www.sciencealert.com/something-you-should-know-about-100-meat-pure-carnivore-diet-palaeo-keto-health-cancer-vitamins-nutrients

happiest girl
Jan '20

Happiest girl- you are too quick at the keyboard. Do your research. He’s been exonerated and his license restored. Read up on what actually happened. It was completely unjustified what was done to him and had nothing to do with eating meat. It’s all out there in the open. I’m not even going to get into that. You can easily read up on what actually transpired. If you don’t like him, that’s fine. Not sure what that has to do with everyone else in the Facebook group. He actually doesn’t even post in the group?

Why are you so angry about this? It’s helping people. It isn’t a cult. It’s a bunch of people who eat meat instead of plants. That’s all. There’s nothing cult like about it.... I really don’t understand the frustration.

Also, Sean Baker has said many many times via podcasts he’s been on, his book, his social media, etc. that this diet isn’t for everyone, and he doesn’t have anything against people eating plants. His approach is more live and let live. He thrives on the diet like many others, but he also supports everyone’s right to choose whatever diet they want, as do I.

I think this is me signing off (which I'm sure will be a great relief to some people).  If anything I've shared has made even one person rethink things or consider trying something new and on the "fringe" it will have been worth it. If you’re as sick as some of the people I’ve met...what do you have to lose?   

Blessings to all of you.

Megan Megan
Jan '20

I think an issue is not the carnivore diet but the thought that the carnivore diet as well as other diets are wrong. Megan has really highlighted how bad processed food can be, and usually are.

The other day i noticed my fav Campbell's tomato soup is loaded with high fructose syrup. Couldn’t believe it in this day n age. I complained; their answer was to send a coupon. Meanwhile this same company makes many a tomato soup without the fructose. Apparently it’s easy if you give the soup a fancy label. Same with ketchup, bbq sauce, whatever, but it’s relatively easy to avoid without breaking the bank; just read!

Personally, I think following a hunky dental sleep apnea block chain expert on what to eat — not my first call. But if it works for Megan, I don’t see where beating her over the head about it will move the ball forward. If I went full carnivore, no amount of drugs could save my arteries from blockage. Got an answer for that?

And still wondering how much soy to go full woman? I read the report, seems only obese people at the highest soy intake measured were at risk, but hard for me fo convert grams to soy burgers.....

Thanks for illuminating us that this alternative is out there and reminding us about the horrors of processed food.

Strangerdanger Strangerdanger
Jan '20

Megan, You are absolutely correct in your knowledge about what can work for autoimmune and Hashimoto’s issues. I was a vegan for ethical reasons and I was never sicker in my life. I was eating no gluten, no dairy, no meat. Once I was diagnosed with an autoimmune condition, I started to do research and learned about the AIP diet. As soon as I began cutting out soy, corn, nightshade vegetables, lectins and eating grass fed meat along with lots of vegetables and apples/berries (other fruits were too high in sugar at first for my system), my symptoms began to subside.

The SAD is absolutely terrible. The way that foods are grown in conventional methods are horrendous. There are so many terrible ingredients in processed food that people eat every day but most people are so busy and don’t take the time to read the labels or do the research. Too much sugar is absolutely poison to your system. And eating whole foods over processed crap is now a no brainer to me.

It seems that happiest girl is just pretty angry with anyone that might believe anything different from what she believes. The beauty of life is that we can learn from other people if we are open. I come to this forum to learn and some of you share my same views and some do not. I learn the most from those that do not.

No one should judge anyone on finding the right formula for what works for them to feel well. We are all different shapes and sizes and there is no right or wrong. It’s just what is right for you.

Wishing all of you that are struggling that you find your right solution.

Jules Jules
Jan '20

Jules, I am not angry at all!
What you should be pondering is why Megan dismisses FACTS ... she said my statement about vitamins (I spoke about B12, D3 and K2) is *false information*.
I listed various foods that contain these vitamins.
What I said is factual and backed by scientific research.
I also gave the very helpful information for people with digestive disorders that pressure cooking (like using the Instant Pot) destroys lectins in beans and some other foods.
This I feel is wonderful information for those who have digestive problems from lectins, but it seems Megan's only solution is to cut those foods out of your diet.

Actually sufficient boiling also destroys lectins in beans, but pressure cooking is quicker.

happiest girl
Jan '20

Well, I wanted to sign off, but if someone is going to continue to call me out by name then it’s hard for me to sit and say nothing.

Happiest girl - you posted 3 reputable reliable sources initially to back up your claim that mushrooms have D3. I asked you to include links. I’d like to see those honestly. When I looked at all 3 of those (doing my own search because you didn’t provide links) I found nothing that corroborates your claim. Then you posted 2 or 3 links that said if you take your mushrooms and put them in sunlight for a certain amount of time and rotate them you can get them to maybe synthesize vitamin D3. (One of these 3 links didn’t work for me at all). Wow. That’s great info! I appreciate that and find the possibility interesting. Like I said I like to learn new things. Let me ask you something: do you think it’s fair to say mushrooms have D3 because of that? They MAY if you’re going to take them, put them in sunlight and then rotate them. Let’s be fair about the facts. Who is going to do that? Mushrooms as they are NORMALLY foraged for, harvested and sold in the grocery store DO NOT have D3. See links:

https://www.berkeleywellness.com/healthy-eating/nutrition/article/mushrooms-and-vitamin-d

https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.cookinglight.com/news/depression-fighting-vitamin-d-uv-mushroom-technique%3famp=true (This link even quotes a respected vegan doctor/researcher)

D3 is abundant in animal products. You can’t argue against that. That is just a fact, and you don’t have to DO something to the animal to get it to produce D3. Also, how much D3 are we talking in one serving of mushrooms that have been put under UV light and rotated? I’d love to see more research on this. It’s interesting for sure, but there isn’t a lot out there to back this claim up. Yes, they will produce a decent amount of D2 in sunlight, but the studies claiming you’ll get any abundant amount of D3 this way - there just aren’t enough of them.

Megan Megan
Jan '20

I’m not going to argue about B12 either. Once again, ABUNDANT in animal products. Sure. You can eat some really dirty, barely washed produce to get SOME. Are you going to meet your daily requirements of B12? Not happening. And if you have pernicious anemia it is DEFINITELY not happening as they don’t have the intrinsic factor protein.

https://ods.od.nih.gov/factsheets/VitaminB12-HealthProfessional/

K2 - Can you get it in fermented foods? Yep. Can you get it in vegetables or fruit without fermentation? NO. Again, how much are we talking? Can you get enough if you eat fermented foods everyday? It may be possible! Do you know that eating a significant quantity of fermented foods causes many people extreme gastrointestinal upset?

When you consider the quantity of some of these foods you would need to consume to get even CLOSE to the recommended daily value, you also need to account for the negative effects of that. Here’s an example: broccoli is considered to be a superfood. Did you know that more and more studies are coming out with info that when it comes to broccoli consumption and other cruciferous or goitrogenic vegetables those with thyroid conditions must be very cautious? (Not going to bother posting links to support this. It’s everywhere). They are disruptive to thyroid function for people in that camp. Did you know that the fiber content Alone can produce extreme intestinal discomfort for some people? What about all those amazing nutrients in broccoli? They’re great! But if you are someone who is sensitive to goitrogens or fiber or the other host of anti nutrient properties this type of produce contains the negative effect may outweigh the positive.

Can vegetables give you D3, K2 and B12 on their own, without us having to manipulate them with special methods of preparation and giving them UV light? No. And if they can, the amount is so trivial it isn’t even worth mentioning.

Lectins - You cannot destroy every single lectin by pressure cooking it, soaking it or using any other method. Some people are sensitive to lectins. Not everyone but some. I’m in that camp. doesn’t matter what you try to do with them. You cannot completely remove every single lectin. If you’re a healthy normal person, with a smooth running digestive system by all means, eat beans! If not, consider this may be an issue for you.

“ I listed various foods that contain these vitamins.” - No. You listed ways to manipulate those foods (or to just plain not wash them) In order to get SOME amount of that nutrient. The point of what most sources say about not being able to get these nutrients from plants was that the plants do not contain those nutrients without manipulation (or uncleanliness in some way).

If I’m going to get called out by name and told that I’m sharing “falsehoods” it will be difficult for me to stay silent.

Happiest girl - my solution is to “cut those foods out of one’s diet” because some of those people cannot consume them without experiencing deleterious effects from them. It’s called an elimination diet, and it’s pretty common practice in western medicine as well as functional.

Megan Megan
Jan '20

lectins: what is that? would "Beano" help with the problem?

Hackresident Hackresident
Jan '20

Now you're broccoli bashing? Goiter and broccoli?? Who was talking about goiter?

Wow. Talk about an angry person...... very selective in thought too.
Sounds like you're having a heart attack about how mushrooms contain D3. I didn't give a symposium on how much D3, I merely said they contain it.

You selectively fail to admit all the foods I mentioned:

B12 -- is in plant foods such as nutritional yeast, tempeh, natto, mushrooms, nori (seaweed)
K2 -- is in plant foods such as sauerkraut, natto, fermented foods.

Sounds like you have a problem with fermenting. Do you believe food should only be eaten in it's natural state? if so, that means you would eat all your meat raw.

Give it up already.

happiest girl
Jan '20

Pamela,
Have you ever been to The Clean Plate in Clinton? Everything is gluten free.

happiest girl
Jan '20

Megan, thanks for all the great info, appreciate your thoughts here!

justintime justintime
Jan '20

Yes, I agree with JIT. Thanks, Megan for sharing your wealth of information..while maintaining your composure. You seem to be very well educated, guessing you are in the healthcare field?

Also, I’d like to thank you Phil for starting this thread. Sharing your abundance of knowledge and experience.

Positive Positive
Jan '20

Lectins are in BEEF, CHICKEN, TURKEY and FISH.
Don't believe false claims that you should eat meat to avoid lectins.

Lectins are not just in plant foods.
In fact, meats have the same types of lectins as plant food, and also others as well!

"Not only do meats (vertebrate animals) have the same broad types / categories as plants, but they also have OTHERS in addition."

"The animal forms (lectins) may actually have a greater biological effect in the human body than those which are plant-derived."

https://www.superfoodly.com/foods-high-in-lectins

"The following foods should be completely avoided as they have THE HIGHEST LECTIN - LEVELS: corn, corn-fed meats & animal products .....(etc)"
Meat already has the same, plus additional, lectins occuring naturally in the animal.
When the animal eats grain and corn, it just increases the amount even higher.
Most meats sold in grocery stores are grain & corn-fed meats.

http://www.mosesnutrition.com/lectins

There are proven ways to reduce or eliminate lectins in plant foods, but I have found no scientific study that indicates any way to remove lectins from meat, poultry and fish.

https://articles.mercola.com/sites/articles/archive/2017/08/14/reduce-lectins-in-your-diet.aspx

Foods with the Highest Lectin Content -- corn, corn-fed meats.

"Research demonstrates that sprouting, fermenting, soaking overnight and cooking high lectin foods does dramatically reduce the lectin content."
"Many beans, seeds and grains can be sprouted to deactivate lectins."
"Cook (beans) for at least 15 minutes on High heat. Plant lectins are most effectively neutralized when cooked under pressure relatively quickly." (like with the InstaPot for example)

https://woodlandswellnessmd.com/nutrition-nugget-what-foods-contain-lectins.html

happiest girl
Jan '20

Did any of you ever read a book called, "Eating Right for Your Blood Type"....... a must for this thread. talks gluten, lectins, milk, etc. in it. Great book!

Hackresident Hackresident
Jan '20

Re: Celiac Disease & Gluten Free Thread

Some of the Gluten Free line from Aldi

Weebiekins Weebiekins
Feb '20

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