How did those "middle class tax cuts" work out for you?

I'm hoping to find some time this weekend to bang out my return and figure out how deep up my ass Trump went... anybody taken the plunge already?

ianimal ianimal
1 week ago

Look at total taxes paid...not the size of your return


I paid less taxes than last year and so far my refund will be around the same as last year. Winning...

Metsman Metsman
1 week ago

Return? What's that? I'm not in the habit of giving the government interest-free loans. I'll be mailing in a check... just not sure how much it's going to be for.

And for me, I'll be comparing the percentages paid rather than total tax because I made quite a bit more last year than I did in 2017.

ianimal ianimal
1 week ago

I just did my this week. The new standard deduction of $24k was more then my itemized deductibles so I guess that was a good thing. Still went through the whole process on TurboTax but then when I was done it said I was better off using the standard deduction.


if you want an answer to that, meet with a CPA and have them analyze your tax returns and tell you if the changes helped or hurt you. tax law is complex and your scenarios change annually so the is many factors outside of the tax law change that have an impact on what you paid this year vs last year. simply looking at your return check from this year vs last year is probably not an accurate assessment. don't be confused by your "refund" compared to last year, especially if you used to itemize but now claim the doubled standard deduction. Since the withholding tables changed to reflect the doubled standard deduction less money is being withheld from your paycheck in the first place which means less refund because you were not overpaying throughout the year.

Here are just some reasons off the top of my head why someone's refund would be less than a prior year:

made more money
had a change in dependents or a child turned 17 years old in 2018
adjusted federal withholding intentionally (outside of the automatic adjustment per the IRS)
change in income type (i.e. ordinary income to self employment income)
change in pre-tax deductions like retirement contributions or insurance
repayment of healthcare subsidies or penalties for not having insurance
penalties from early withdrawal of a retirement account
elimination of education credits because one or both spouses (or kids) didn't attend school

Even with the SALT deduction elimination If your home is worth less than ~$1M you'll have a net cut.


"The new standard deduction of $24k was more then my itemized deductibles so I guess that was a good thing."

Not when you consider that you lost the $4,050 apiece in personal exemptions for you, your spouse and your children that you used to get ON TOP OF the itemized deductions. But now there's a flat per child tax credit that may balance at least some of that out. I'm really not sure which way it's going to go... I'm stopping for the BIG bottle of bourbon on my way home tonight, lol.

ianimal ianimal
1 week ago

"And for me, I'll be comparing the percentages paid rather than total tax because I made quite a bit more last year than I did in 2017."


Enough to put you in another tax bracket? Because that would be your doing, not Trump's :)

JeffersonRepub JeffersonRepub
1 week ago

I usually have a lot of deductions, child, mortgage, property tax, and my biggest deduction, car miles for work. That usually drops my AGI down way low that I pay low taxes and get a Nice refund no matter how much I change my holdings. This year after I did all that itemizing I was told to use the standard. So I guess that was better??


“My tax was less but my refund was the same.” That’s hard to do unless your withholding changed. Guess it must have.

I pay more, and that’s after prepaying a lot of my property tax last year. More important, and perhaps the guide you should use, my effective tax rate went up. Highest in a decade.

Supposedly, 1 out of 3 middle classers will pay more. Hardest hurt will be high property tax states, usually the ones with the better schools, and people in those states who could avail themselves of deductions. Basically we can no longer afford to work at home.

I am only part way in, still waiting on some 1099’s so this too could change but certainly I will not be on the plus side. Please enjoy the extra bazooka I put in the pot this year. Use it profitably :-)

Where’s that Trump promised special middle class tax break? You know, the promise he made right before the midterms?

FYI, not even close to $1M house, Skippy.

Strangerdanger Strangerdanger
1 week ago

my federal taxes are less this year, a lot less, so thank you President Trump

my state and local taxes? they are higher, so boo to that,

GreyHawk GreyHawk
1 week ago

Can't wait until Murphy's "RAIN TAX" is signed into law!!!

HAHAHAHAHA AOC should be our governor, we're virtually socialist already! She'd fit right in! (no wonder for the exodus...)

JeffersonRepub JeffersonRepub
1 week ago

Pretty tough to complain about the federal SALT cap when our very own state has been capping the property tax deduction for years.

What a suprise
1 week ago

SD I didn't change anything on my W4 form.

The middle class ranges a lot. A family making over $200K is still middle class but that's a lot different than a family earning $100K. I doubt the family earning $200K or more is hurting unless they've put themselves in debt by living beyond their means. The upper middle class and the rich that can afford more luxurious homes with higher taxes may take a hit, but the average person in our area should be fine. I personally don't want to buy a home in NJ and will probably be leaving before my youngest starts school in a few years.

Metsman Metsman
1 week ago

Just sayin if you’re waiting on a 1099int or div your not hurting lol

The median income in the US is $59,039. If you are making that in NJ you’re hurting - so In a national scale yes the middle class for tax cuts. In NJ the median income is 76k and property taxes are astronomical - that’s why you’re not seeing the gains you want.

https://www.businessinsider.com/middle-class-income-us-state-2017-9


Which is why the REAL middle class of NJ are leaving. The ones like SD banking off their investments have nothing to complain about.

Metsman Metsman
1 week ago

Plenty of chatter on twitter already about refunds being smaller, or owing more money, than in the past.

OnTheEdge OnTheEdge
1 week ago

"Enough to put you in another tax bracket? "

LOL, no... but for the sake of arithmetical simplicity, say I grossed $100k last year and wound up paying $12k in federal taxes after all of my deductions and what not. That would mean I had an effective tax rate of 12%

Now say that this year, I grossed $120k... if my taxes are $14,400, then I broke even at that 12% effective tax rate. If it's higher, then Trump raised my taxes; if less, then he lowered them.

ianimal ianimal
1 week ago

Just be glad you aren't self employed- do much more work, much more risk..than just going to a 'job' every day- yet get taxed substantially higher even if you gross the same amount.


Did mine and I paid less in taxes, a lot less, compared to 2017.

However the change in the withholding tables mean less return. That means more in pay check throughout the year and less of an interest fee loan to the government.

As others said you can't look at your return you need to look at your tax liability which was definitely less. Another win for Trump.

But did pay more in state taxes. Not surprised, can't wait for Mr Ed to start taxing breathing.

Parent of 2 Parent of 2
1 week ago

Josh,
Yes, you are "taxed" substantially higher", but that is because you are paying both the company and employee SS taxes (Ie. the self employment tax). Most of that money is already deducted out of people's paychecks. You just get to pay that in one lump sum. As for the employers 1/2 of the SS, you at least get to deduct that amount from your taxable income on top of the standard deduction so it's not as bad.


“If it's higher, then Trump raised my taxes; if less, then he lowered them.”

That’s false too... even if he did *nothing* your effective tax rate would be greater because everything additional in your top marginal bracket (say $77K if you’re married) is weighting your effective rate slightly higher towards that 22% or 24% bracket.

In 2018 (assuming no deductions to keep it simple) $100K would have had $14,260 in taxes (14.26% effective rate) and $120K would have had $18,660 in taxes (15.55% effective rate).

Mark Mc. Mark Mc.
1 week ago

Mets, must be IRS formula change so you got more on your paycheck.....would make sense then.

Again folds; the effective tax rate is what tells you whether you’re paying more per each $1 of income. Mine went up.

Very funny Skippy, and no, this is not about who’s hurting; it's whether you are paying more. I am paying more on the Fed. And the effective tax rate tells you plain and simple. Most tax packages will run out a few years for you.

And while you feel my pain; remember I took a big hunk off by prepaying property tax and in a weird manner, have a lot of 1099Rs which inflated my Federal but bypass the state because pensionable. I think, still early yet. So, My state actually covers my Fed and my total bottom line is OK. So it turns out OK, but won’t next year.

It was a weird year for me; usually don’t get many 1099s much less Rs but had some life changes.

Still, if my effective tax rate went up, the Trump tax plan did not benefit me and the answer is the $24k standard deduction was less advantageous than the previous set of deductions.

So I paid for an extra foot of highway. MAGA. It was a good ride.

Strangerdanger Strangerdanger
1 week ago

I still owed this year (for Federal taxes)... but compared to last year:

2017 Tax / 1040 Taxable Income = 19.03%
2018 Tax / 1040 Taxable Income = 16.70%

Yes, deductions and exemptions were different (both due to the tax code and starting an HSA account, etc.) but at the end of the day my taxable income went up and my effective tax rate (and actual tax dollars spent) went down.

Mark Mc. Mark Mc.
1 week ago

jnnjr - It's not a lump sum because if you did that you'd end up with a penalty for not paying enough up front. People in this situation have to make estimated payments so it's not quite an all at once hit.

I'm hitting the SALT cap. From the discussions about how the deductions are close to a wash I can see a lot of families here. Single filers aren't as lucky particularly if you have a lot of deductions. My total effective rate is up a bit over 3% if I compare the same numbers from this year and last.


Gc, did you prepay property tax last year. If not, and I did; I think I’m in to 1-2% higher. Would make some sense.

Strangerdanger Strangerdanger
1 week ago

"if I compare the same numbers from this year and last."

I think the problem is various people are using various numbers. Some probably look at Tax vs. W2 income, some probably look at Tax vs. Deductions, some people just look at the refund amount, etc.

I don't know if there's a "right" way, but I chose (a few posts above) to compare "Total Tax" vs "taxable income" on the 1040 for the past 2 years and at least with that calculation 2018 was better for me.

Mark Mc. Mark Mc.
1 week ago

SD - No prepayment, even if I had the cash, I'd just be kicking the can down the line for this year.

Mark - There is a right way because in the end what matters is how much you make vs how much you give up. How much you give up when is more a matter of choice than anything else so comparing against the refund is not very meaningful. (just change your withholding if that's what you want) Comparing against your income after the deductions isn't right either because the deductions are part of how the tax rates are figured. What matters to us in the end is comparing all income, whether taxable or not to see what we pay. "Taxable" to some may be things like ordinary income vs municipal bond interest/soc sec benefits/etc, and to others might be income before deductions and income after. Also "W2" income isn't everyone's situation, some people are employees, some business owners, some both. And some people have investments or rental income. My definition of income includes all of those things before any deductions or other adjustments. That's what I'm comparing to my total tax bill.


I agree with what you're saying re: refunds, etc. (that's why I brought it up... a lot of people are just saying they got more/less back this year as an indicator for whether the tax code was better/worse).

Using your suggested formula (total tax / total income) for me:

2017 = 15.15%
2018 = 14.06% (2018 total income was also 2.1% higher than 2017)

2018 still wins.

However, I think the *best* way to do it would be to back feed 2018's numbers into a 2017 tax calculation and then compare that to the 2018 actual. That would isolate how the "rules" themselves affected the outcome for the *exact same* financial scenario. (i.e. maybe my 2018 rate went down because I had more capital gains vs. last year but the loss of the personal exemption actually hurt me and that was "hidden" in the noise).

That sounds like a lot of hassle though... ;)

Mark Mc. Mark Mc.
1 week ago

You’re computing an effective tax rate which is the way to do it. So you gained a point; $1 on every $100; $10 on every $1,000.

However, as your taxes get more complex, you may see things like credits below the lines or those long term losses than I will carry for decades.

So, if your tax package runs it, use theirs. At least it’s consistent. But you’ve got the idea.

Ps: you’re paying too much :-)

Strangerdanger Strangerdanger
1 week ago

We’re also completely discounting the time value of money and missed opportunity cost in prepaying property tax - I’m not sure that the salt deduction pays off in that scenerio


“Ps: you’re paying too much :-)”

Some of that is probably the single vs married “penalty” (i.e. I jump up to 22% and 24% brackets sooner than a married filer would - it’s possible that taxes on the same total income is “cheaper” for joint filers).

Plus, investment strategy differs... taxable vs deferred (or tax free), taking losses now vs later, etc.

I don’t know if you work for yourself, but there are possible/partial deductions there that a salaried employee couldn’t duplicate (travel, equipment, utilities, etc.)

You may also be beyond the SS tax cap... keeping 6% more of each dollar above that limit (weighting your total effective rate down - in a good way).

Honestly, I really have a simple financial situation and beyond 401K and HSA contributions, mortgage interest, and property tax I don’t have many obscure deductions
to get that extra percent or two off my income.

Mark Mc. Mark Mc.
1 week ago

Simply put, I had to PAY fed.tax lasts. This year i'm getting BACK $1,800. IT's working out just fine. Now I'm looking to move out of state an save more.

Frank 1945 Frank 1945
1 week ago

Pretty easy Skippy; opportunity cost is your effective tax rate. Pretty sure aiming for low double digit profits is a riskier opportunity than saving that amount.

Of course, I could of put in a new kitchen floor, valued that like Trump values his brand and decided it was worth billions.

No Skip; a savings of 10% or higher usually means I don’t do too much thinking if I can afford the freight.

Strangerdanger Strangerdanger
1 week ago

I paid $16 less this year. I filled out the 1040, then just for fun did it again using the 2017 form and instructions, and compared the Total Tax figure. And for me, itemizing deductions worked out better than using the standard deduction.


Missed opportunity cost is the gain that would have been realized at the standard rate of return if invested not the effective tax rate and the time value of money is the delta between the value of money when you paid your tax till when it was due. It’s reasonable to believe that you could have done better doing it that way. It has nothing to do with your effective tax rate. If you don’t care about 10% in your scenario so be it.


for me it worked pretty well. We had over $10,000 more than what we would have had with previous tax law.

BrownEyesGuy BrownEyesGuy
1 week ago

Sorry Skippy. Like school, I should have shown my work given I tend the shorthand the whole affair. Pecuniariat Intuitivium.

OC’s are really just alternative values for an amount. Not sure what a “standard ror” is. Time, etc. would all be apples to apples.

My point was, using a 10% effective tax rate, one year planning period, let’s say $10k property tax, I will save $1,000. Although I will wait a year for the 1k.

Now, either that’s the standard return on the 10k as OC or I need to find an OC return value for the 10k that’s greater than $1k or 10%. Standard or not, finding 10% in this world means risk. $1k in my pocket is a sure thing. Obviously, same planning period.

Now, I could work the $10K for an entire year. That’s risk, that’s work, versus immediate gratification, no risk, no worry, no work. And I need 10% with $10k at risk; what’s the value of monitoring that?

3% is the current no-risk ror; and not for just one year period; you need to lock it aeay for more time.

I just shorthanded my effective tax rate and said NFW am I going to work that hard.... Frankly, if I could standardly do 10%, I would hire a CPA. Until then, on JIT’s coerced theft payments ;-) I will take a 10% bluebird all day long. (a bluebird is free money, no risk, like what taxpayers give banks for excess reserves they are too lazy to work. But that’s another story :-)

Hope that clarifies. Loved the definition.

Strangerdanger Strangerdanger
1 week ago

Bottom line look at your at total Federal Taxes withheld it is lower - your Tax return is on you or your Accountant.

The Feds took less for your labor...and that Social Security Trust Fund is in T Bills comment- not sure the color of the sky in your world = probably Red thats what the color Socialists like.

If US Dollar goes in the tank = so does your T-Bills and Social Security.
lol = clueless totally clueless


Got it - ROi = return on investment.
Understand the risk component for sure - I just don’t like giving any government money before I absolutely have to lol


Re: How did those

Hmm, so this is apparently part of the formula... some people aren't "paying more taxes", they just didn't have as much taken out in payroll, therefore their refund is smaller. They don't actually have less money, they just have less of a refund.....

It's offensive how the media takes stuff like this and turns it into "they lied, you aren't getting a tax cut"... it's NEVER as simple as it seems, and it's a damned part-time job searching for the WHOLE story...


"...the changes complicated payroll withholding, so that not enough money was withheld by employers in many cases, meaning that people now owe more taxes. The new law also capped IRS deductions for paid state and local taxes, including real estate taxes, resulting in a nasty surprise for many filers."

JeffersonRepub JeffersonRepub
1 week ago

For those willing to share, I’d be interested to know what your NJ property taxes are to see how that new rules capping that deduction amount is affecting us.

D-ManPV D-ManPV
1 week ago

Skippy, roi, ror, whatever :>) But I did "don’t like giving any government money before I absolutely have to" by giving them money a year in advance....to pay 10% less on that money, just had to wait 12 months for the payoff :>) To me, that's absolutely on time!

Wow... " If US Dollar goes in the tank = so does your T-Bills and Social Security." So, tell us, rude and snarky one, what's your solution when the dollar goes in the tank. The T-bills will fail well after than useless lettuce under your mattress.... :>) Or maybe you'd have us put it in gold; if the dollar fails, how you gonna get that, rob Fort Knox?

JR: read your own piece: "The new law also capped IRS deductions for paid state and local taxes, including real estate taxes, resulting in a nasty surprise for many filers" Hello, McFly, anyone in there?

But I think you are on a right track and that many people's taxes are being affected by withholding. Apparently, when the IRS adjusted their withholding recommendations, they went too deep so many happy people during the year will become unhappy at tax time..... Lots of rationalizing about this all over the place. The conspiracy types see government overreach to make you feel better during the year --- immediate gratification. Worked here :>) Others say its just one of those things and it was your fault for not overriding the recommendation. Yeah, right :>(

Many will pay just plain pay more Federal Income Tax. My example, using the Effective Tax Rate as the measure, is still correct. The rate is higher, I pay more, withholding included. Many people, especially in NJ, CA, NY, HI, OR, IO, VT and DC will be in my boat. We have high property taxes, or state taxes, or both, and high deductions under the old system.

We work from home and those massive deductions that disappeared were not compensated by the increased personal exemption. And we made more than previous years so at least that dulls the pain.

But my 1 out of 3 will pay more MAY have more to do with withholding. I don't know, can't find it again, and most are saying we are early in the cycle so these early returns may not categorize the entire field. I expect we will see a conclusion for this once more returns are filed. But whether they withheld more or less, made more or less, the Effective Tax Rate will tell the tale.

strangerdanger strangerdanger
1 week ago

As a consultant I lost a lot of stuff that was previously deductible - I feel that


Yeah, bad enough that I may seek an office. I actually feel the WAH payments for heat, electric, internet......but not phone (VoiP remote extension....). Oh well, not much longer for me....kinda….halfway there already. May see you in NC soon. But, of course, you will never know :>)

strangerdanger strangerdanger
1 week ago

Effective tax rate of 5.6%... got a little less than $500 back when I was expecting to owe at least $3k. Another $2k refund from the State. I feel a lot better than I did when I woke up in a cold sweat this morning, lol.

ianimal ianimal
1 week ago

"Effective tax rate of 5.6%"

How much money are you laundering (or losing in the stock market) to get that rate?

Mark Mc. Mark Mc.
1 week ago

Can someone tell me what I will pay in taxes please , social security income 23,796 and 7000. Capital gains , thank you , worried I will owe a lot but can’t do taxes until papers are in single filer

cowgirl1 cowgirl1
1 week ago

Effective fax rate...

2016: 12.6
2017: 13.1
2018: 11.9

Not bad.


https://turbotax.intuit.com/tax-tools/calculators/taxcaster/

Try that to calculate


I dump 10% into my 401k and max out my medical and childcare flexible spending accounts (7500 total b/w the two). There is also a $2.1k credit (not deduction) per kid these days. Then all of the exemptions for the $6k in health insurance premiums and dental premiums, etc.

I actually had it turn out that the standard deduction was better than itemized, which surprised me slightly, although the uncertainty definitely had an adverse affect on charitable contributions...

The total federal tax bill came out to $9k, of which 2,600 was SE tax on my wife's contract invoices. The total Fed income tax,exclusively, was only 6,500, which would work out to 5.6% of about 117k, which means that Turbotax doesnt even factor in the 401k contributions, because my gross plus the wife's "profits" exceed that by quite a bit.

ianimal ianimal
1 week ago

I tried the turbo tax can’t get it to work , doesn’t allow capital gain

cowgirl1 cowgirl1
1 week ago

Yeah that may need you to itemize not sure.

SD I’ll keep an ear out for the liberal that got dragged behind a pickup lol


Capital gains have nothing to do with itemizing (they aren't deductions). They are just taxed at different rates depending on whether they are short term or long term gains.

No idea why TurboTax won't work for you, as I've never used it. I do my taxes online (FreeTax USA) and it's always accepted everything I've entered with the appropriate tips and error checks.

Mark Mc. Mark Mc.
1 week ago

Don't know what the final tally will be, but we made A LOT more money last year with SS increase and the booming economy causing my stocks to skyrocket. I guess my name says it all...USAfirst.

USAfirst USAfirst
1 week ago

cowgirl1 if you are a senior, thru AARP people are available by appointment, no charge, at various libraries to help you through

4catmom 4catmom
1 week ago

good info - also I just saw credit karma is offering it for free


Thank you

cowgirl1 cowgirl1
1 week ago

"Yeah, bad enough that I may seek an office."


DEAR GOD HELP US ALL

...I may have to, in that case, run against you :)

JeffersonRepub JeffersonRepub
1 week ago

If you have the Deluxe TurboTax it doesn't walk you through the forms for investments, but you can open the forms and complete.


Yes, TT Deluxe can be a ROYAL PITA for things like capital gains, profit sharing, bonuses being paid with stock options.... every year we have to call the broker (Merrill-Lynch) to figure it all out ...

JeffersonRepub JeffersonRepub
1 week ago

Won't know until we go to our accountant. We wait until the last minute every year. With the raise on the AMT limits, that alone will probably put us into the black. For thef first time in years.

Media is already spinning things. Headlines of 'people receiving smaller tax refunds' have already started. They need basic math courses. Refunds are totally up to the individual. If you want a bigger return, withhold more.

MeisterNJ MeisterNJ
1 week ago

We made out great. More money in our pay checks and still a refund.

Calico696 Calico696
1 week ago

Early data can shift a lot, tax experts say, but there’s reason to believe frustrations could rise as more Americans complete their tax returns. The Government Accountability Office warned last summer that the number of tax filers who receive refunds was likely to drop for the 2018 tax year, while the number of filers who owe money would rise.

The GAO pointed to an IRS estimate that about 4.6 million fewer filers would receive refunds this tax filing season. Another 4.6 million filers were likely to owe money who had not had that experience in the past.

dodgebaal dodgebaal
1 week ago

"We made out great. More money in our pay checks and still a refund."


You're lying, just like Trump!

Or, you're RICH, because only the RICH got tax cuts, because Trump hates America!

;)

JeffersonRepub JeffersonRepub
1 week ago

I LOVED the tax cuts !!! More money in my pocket always make me happy.

MAKE AMERICA GREAT AGAIN !!!

Thank You Donald and 4 more years !!!!!!


Haven't done ours yet, it's on the list for next weekend. This is all interesting info.
My husband is self employed so I withhold enough to cover both of us.

I was nervous about the change last year and manually increased withholding on my W4. Hopefully we'll either be OK, or get a good refund. If the refund happens I'll 'unadjust' my W4 to get that back in the paycheck.

hktownie hktownie
1 week ago

I think we still need to wait to judge the effects as the early returns do not necessarily describe what is coming.

It is pretty certain that a number of folks will be surprised.

Some, like me, will just pay more. We will tend to like in high tax states like CA, HI, OR, MI, IO, NJ, VT and DC and have high deductions. The $24K increase did not cover the deductions that disappeared.

Others will have gotten money back during the year via reduced withholding. Some may get a surprise as it appears the IRA withholding number may have been a little deeper than probably intended. Whether on purpose to make you feel better, or an accident, it may surprise a some folks

Others will see a reduction both in payroll taxes and in what they file April 15th.

When Reagan did his cuts, he phased them in to avoid some of these surprises. Hopefully Trump's won't need it and the ones that occur won't be that bad. In my case, it was expected, although one always dreams for a better future :>)

strangerdanger strangerdanger
1 week ago

What's to worry about? If our tax returns are smaller that's good; it means Trump is taking our money to build that wall we want, right?!

Winning!

EuphoriaMourning EuphoriaMourning
1 week ago

More money in each paycheck, less 'refund', just as it was intended. No surprise at all.

thecoach thecoach
1 week ago

The money has to come out of somewhere. Do you honestly think the federal government was just more fiscally responsible this year?

Realdeal Realdeal
1 week ago

Are you suggesting Trump isn't fiscally responsible? Show me any evidence that this man was ever fiscally irresponsible.

Trump2020 Trump2020
1 week ago

" Show me any evidence that this man was ever fiscally irresponsible."

Atlantic City

NYC Banks

Bayrock

The Deficit

The Debt

The Tax Plan causing the Deficit, the Debt

His statements on reconciling the debt

strangerdanger strangerdanger
1 week ago

SD you really were asleep during the Obama years.... You're really gonna blame Trump for the debt.... Sure some more has piled on but it isn't because of the tax cuts. It's continual reckless spending that congress has done nothing about. Getting us out of continuous wars will help. There are probably countless programs that are complete garbage that could be cut to save money.

Metsman Metsman
1 week ago

“There are probably countless programs that are complete garbage that could be cut to save money.”...Mets

Like giving $1.5 trillion to corporations? Dump the “give more money to the ultra wealthy“ program ,for starters. It’s obvious tRUMP has criminals, all around him. They know how to STEAL!
What programs do you think should be cut? Trump’s “working vacations”? Extra staff for patrolling the shores of Mar a lago? Two floors, in tRUMP tower, for security (millions of dollars), so Melly can go to a fashion show? Security at camp David? A place too dumpy for rTRUMP. Paying for his overseas dictator school and condo sales visits to Asia? I could think of lots more waste, that needs tending to. What programs do you want cut?

Guilty-Remnant Guilty-Remnant
1 week ago

The debt is going up on Trump's watch … all that needs to be said right there.

Andy Loigu Andy Loigu
1 week ago

He is trying a Reaganomics move, doubtful the economy will burst and bust like it did before, more likely just Peter out...


Funny how the first year of the tax cuts, the debt didn't increase any more dramatically than under Obama.

https://www.statista.com/statistics/187867/public-debt-of-the-united-states-since-1990/

So what was Obama's problem every year when the government was still getting the ultra-high corporate taxes? These numbskulls couldn't balance a budget if there was a gun held to their heads.... Has nothing to do with taxes, because people end up spending more when they have more money in their pockets.

Metsman Metsman
1 week ago

When you have the ability to print money..you don't really need a budget


I’d bet some of those complaining about taxes going up (or not dropping a huge amount) for them are approaching or exceeding the top end of “middle class” which is $60K to $174K in NJ (for a family of four). When you have ~$30K+ just in deductions you’re pulling in a good amount of money to begin with.

Isn’t that what Democrats (that you voted for) want? The more you make the more you pay in taxes? Congrats! You’re in the upper class now!

Mark Mc. Mark Mc.
1 week ago

I need a definition of "ultra-high" when it comes to a discussion of corporate taxes. I seem to recall the one-percent doing quite well during the Obama administration.

Andy Loigu Andy Loigu
1 week ago

Andy corporate taxes are not the same thing as the rich personal income... Some corporations were being taxed close to 40%. So again, tell me where that money all went when Obama was in charge.

Metsman Metsman
1 week ago

Maybe the stupid or unlucky ones....METS

Average US Corporation Effective Tax Rate is under 30%....

strangerdanger strangerdanger
1 week ago

Here is a 2016 report on global corporate tax rates. https://taxfoundation.org/corporate-income-tax-rates-around-world-2016/

Exactly how is any entity entitled to 1/3 of what anybody earns? How do we justify that on moral grounds? How much is too much ? Why?

Electric Bear Electric Bear
1 week ago

https://tradingeconomics.com/united-states/corporate-tax-rate

Went from 35% to 21%.

Metsman Metsman
1 week ago

Ok.
Now what can we do to get our NJ property taxes down?


Made the same prior year. Less bonuses made this year, but literally same salary. I’m a Democrat living in Trump world. Federal deposited in my bank account 11 days later and $600 more of MY money back.

Just Lurking Just Lurking
7 days ago

Keri,
You need to pay the existing money you owe first before we can lower your bill.
Your current balance is 100,000,000,000, plus interest accruing daily.
You have only been paying the minimum amount due, plus a little more.
You are constitutionally held to paying this money as long as you continue to be a resident.

There is NO WAY your NJ property taxes are going down, unless you buy a smaller or older home. Or possibly a piece of land and pitch a tent on it. Or possibly start living like the Waltons and divide your cost of the taxes. Or start some sort of real or fake business and write off parts of your property as if they are your office, etc.

Get a better or 2nd job. It's raining now and we are planning to tax your runoff.

dodgebaal dodgebaal
7 days ago

Mets et al. You need to understand the difference between tax rate, marginal tax rate, and effective tax rate.

You’re talking apples n oranges mush here. E-bear—marginal tax rate for comparison— come on. Mets, highest tax rate are a measure. Of what? Everyone; I got more or less on my refund: don’t mean much with knowing a comparable factor....

I realize this ain’t quite balancing a check book simple, but try using the Effective Tax rate to do your comparisons. Chances ate that’s the number that will give you apples-to-apples.

Look it up as to what it means: it makes sense. Please folks, try effective rate for comparison. You’ll have a more harmonius outcome.

And Iman; think it’s the effect maybe a payroll tax that might throw your chainsaw math off; good enough for govt. work however. I’m just shocked you didn’t get tossed into the AMT. The only time I was in your effective rate neighborhood, I had two full college, huge losses, two surgeries, and a mortgage. And I got whacked with the AMT.

StrangerDanger StrangerDanger
7 days ago

A better way to describe this, except they are joking.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1z-AxgueBRk

dodgebaal dodgebaal
7 days ago

Just add those tax breaks to the govt credit card.

The national debt has passed a new milestone, topping $22trillion for the first time.

The Treasury Department's daily statement showed Tuesday that total outstanding public debt stands at $22.01trillion.

It stood at $19.95 trillion when President Donald Trump took office on January 20, 2017.

22,000,000,000,000 US Govt Debt
100,000,000,000 Debt to NJ Retirees.

That zero key gets a real workout.

dodgebaal dodgebaal
7 days ago

SD and other leftists, you know you can always send more to DC and trenton right ? Why pay the minimum? You vote for politicians who raise taxes. Why not just raise your own like the good citizen that you profess to be ? Why not send a nice big check? You could even use an Obama stamp and include a love note to bob mueller. Tax cuts shouldn’t matter for the leftist. If they want bigger government then fund it yourself.

Electric Bear Electric Bear
7 days ago

Re: How did those

And again. Despite your stale condescending attitude effective corporate rates were still too high in the USA before the cut. https://s3.amazonaws.com/brt.org/archive/Effective_Tax_Rate_Study.pdf

Electric Bear Electric Bear
7 days ago

dodgeball, if too many people start living in tents they are going to tax the hell out of it.

The economy is a piece of pie, yes it can grow, modestly, along with population growth and more so with technology that lowers costs, but it really is a static pie (and always is at any given moment). Let's just assume a moment is a year, then as a society the pie needs to be divided. Capitalism does the dividing and society says it is fair. Unions and the public sector strong-arm the taxpayers whop have no recourse but to move. Just understand these basic principles if you are so inclined...


"You vote for politicians who raise taxes. Why not just raise your own like the good citizen that you profess to be ? Why not send a nice big check? You could even use an Obama stamp and include a love note to bob mueller." - - - - Electric Bear


LOL!! almost spit my coffee all over the keyboard !!! +1 man, spot on correct, and you also right ont he money when you say - - -

"Tax cuts shouldn’t matter for the leftist. If they want bigger government then fund it yourself."

Another big wet and sloppy +1 to that. If the leftists want more government then they should be offering more of their own money to fund it. Couldn't have said it better myself. (now i'm gonna need a whole new cup of coffee)

GreyHawk GreyHawk
7 days ago

"SD and other leftists, you know you can always send more to DC and trenton right ?"

Why don't you just match my tax burden and pay the same share that I do? That seems fair to me :>)

Condescending attitude? You were using the wrong comparative factor. Just trying to avoid you looking stupid. Not sure how to sugar coat that, not my style.

Interesting chart, here's mine although not sure why the CBO would differ with the OECD. Don't matter; think either view indicates that corporate taxes needed some re-engineering, not an overhaul. https://www.npr.org/2017/08/07/541797699/fact-check-does-the-u-s-have-the-highest-corporate-tax-rate-in-the-world

You're chart shows about a 20% difference between US and OECD country effective corporate tax rates. Trump's corporate tax gift was a 40% reduction in tax rates (published, not effective) which seems a bit extreme for a 20% problem.....

Good chart, thanks. I did not expect that much of a difference. .

strangerdanger strangerdanger
7 days ago

Keri-

Now what can we do to get our NJ property taxes down?

I agree, what can we do ?


"Why not just raise your own like the good citizen that you profess to be ?" - - - Electric Bear

right on.

GreyHawk GreyHawk
7 days ago

The damage that a high corporate tax with multitudes of potential deductions is incalculable. How much capital gets diverted from productive activity simply to service arbitrary tax policy and in the pursuit of ‘compliance’? Whether it be marginal or effective rate, why should the US be so high ? To fund the ever expanding government leviathan? Fight the war on drugs? Fund the war on poverty ? And before you talk about the $22 trillion. Cut spending. Each line item. Cut it in half and watch that debt evaporate. We spend entirely too much money then intend to tax the piss out of our economy to pay for it. No. Not right. Do with less. But in your case, write a bigger check if you like. Nobody is stopping you.

Electric Bear Electric Bear
7 days ago

Bobbob


It's easy.

Move. There are plenty of other states to choose from with lower taxes.
Each individual in NJ, including children, owes over 90k to the retirees.
It's about time you pay up, it's accruing interest.

Stay or leave and pay, those are your 2 choices.

dodgebaal dodgebaal
7 days ago

1) @Keri&Bobob,

Property Taxes NEVER go down. Even IF property taxes in some area in America goes down, it's ONLY because the "Cost of Living" (whether you include or exclude the Inflation rate) in that area, you MAY see that slightly decreased -- Yet, most likely just remain flat/the same.

The worse, most contradictory situation I saw was during the Financial Crisis (when many people lost jobs, house prices fell, considered the "Great Recession") thinking Property Taxes would/must go down, INSTEAD, (since the township likewise starting losing money), the Property Taxes went up?!?, and why, because instead of getting the money difference from the Govt/Fed (or deal with the loss the same way we have to do), they (all the township heads who are personally selected, not part of the residents we can vote/impeach/fire for) find it better to put the town's own people in a deeper financial rut or duress (increasing/filling in their pocket with higher property taxes).

However, all aside that, I do agree we (not really us directly, but via our elected representatives {particularly Governor}), can follow/amend/refine [close some of the loop-holes or gaps on CChristie's] 2% CAP or decreases on the increases (by cutting the township's spending and/or SHARING CORE SERVICES) on property taxes.

So can only hope Gov.P.Murphy upholds one of his PropertyTax election promises.


#2) On the "middle class tax cuts" in this forum, which Bug3/ianimal and others brought up one should NOT expect get bigger paychecks or double personal/child exemptions, WHILE retain the same big Itemized deductions and/nor get Bigger Tax Returns.

Isn't the whole point of paying taxes is to do so while playing-on-an-even-field? (Well...as even we can get)

One way I believe this year's The Tax Cut and Jobs Act is doing so via CLOSING SOME GAPS on those who pass their earnings through many various Loop-Holes sitting in itemized deductions, PLUS the change in our Tax Bracket Rates, etc.

Nevertheless, reading a recent article on this: "The outrage over plunging tax refunds is premature", an interesting point says:

"Both the IRS and the Treasury Department said they used the same formula to set withholding rates that they had before, and designed the plan to minimize both underpayments and overpayments."

Which to me lends we may or should like having/getting a more consistent, accurate, stable tax returns or bills year after year.

How many of you like GUESSING (or how many have guessed closely right on) how much your Tax return or Tax bill is each year?

To me, it always comes to a difference of +$1,000 to -$2,000 - which unsettles me (hurry to reallocate funds to cover) each year.

ftcfda@aol.com ftcfda@aol.com
7 days ago

My property taxes went down twice in the past twenty years. I agree they never go down, but there it was. Think I was happy? Both times I figured I was paying too much for years and NOW they finally got it :-)

Fact is we have the highest property taxes in the US.

The result is anyone who is mobile (the retired, don’t have to work wealthy, job mobile, the unemployed) can leave and save money; often real money. NJ is literally uncompetitive for these citizens.

We need to do a little redistribution of the tax targeting profile to better keep NJ for NJians.

NJ is a best state for working folks; wages are quite good for the agile. NJ is a great state for NYC. BJ is a great state to spend all that money and nuy stuff. Redistribute away from property that drives the mobile away and push it towards our drawing cards; jobs, spending, and wages.

That does not necessarily mean entire tax burdens would change but we should avoid special targets on folks who can easily up and go. When we are the worst in the nation, that’s a bullseye right on the mobile backsides of those groups.

StrangerDanger StrangerDanger
7 days ago

Re: How did those

this pretty much sums up the NJ tax situation.

Calico696 Calico696
7 days ago

"this pretty much sums up the NJ tax situation."

You forgot to include the toll gate to leave...

Mark Mc. Mark Mc.
7 days ago

Biggest problems with taxes quite simply is a conflict of freedom.

Nobody should be forced to pay for things that they don't use, heck may not even believe in.

You want something? - pay for it.

You use something? -pay for it.

The whole - 'spread it all around equally' is stupid and ignorant.

Most of what I am robbed of taxes for, I have nothing whatsoever to do with and never will. Should not have anything to do with me.


Amen Josh!

Electric Bear Electric Bear
7 days ago

Jesus loves you man!

StrangerDanger StrangerDanger
7 days ago

Our Father

Who art in Washington

Hallowed be thy name–Uncle Sam.

Thy kingdom come,

Thy will be done,

On earth as it is in America.

Give us this day our daily benefits and entitlements,

And exterminate our enemies in Syria, Yemen, Iran and North Korea.

As you did in Vietnam, Hiroshima, Nagasaki, Tokyo and Dresden.

But lead us not into freedom,

And deliver us from our responsibilities,

For thine is the tuition grant,

And the housing voucher,

And the flood insurance

And Social Security,

Now and forever

Amen.

https://jesusontaxes.liberty.me/the-lords-prayer-revised/


A quick question: I have not yet received my 1099 form from the SS office for my earnings Social Security for 2018. Has any one got theirs thru the mail yet? I know I can get it online but just wondered if people on forum have received theirs thru mail already.? Thank you

maybebaby
7 days ago

Maybebaby - create on-line account (you will need to do so at some time any way) and you will have ALL your statements. My husband have received his SS statement by mail this year already, I didn't.


Lena thank you.I do have an on-line account and we just went on and printed it out thank you. I was just wondering if it comes thru the mail and if everyone got theirs already. I was worried that mine ended up in another persons mailbox by mistake. Thank you for telling me your husband got his but you didnt. So maybe mine is on its way still. But I did print it out from online a few minutes ago. Glad you answered my question. Have a nice night.

maybebaby
6 days ago

I got mine in the mail around three weeks ago.


Maybebaby - you're welcome!


https://itep.org/amazon-in-its-prime-doubles-profits-pays-0-in-federal-income-taxes/

Amazon, which doubled its profits and made more than $11 billion in 2018, won't pay any federal income taxes for the second year in a row - Based out of Washington state, which has no income tax, Amazon has also been free from state filings on income.

time to remove their USPS subsidies as well


kb2755- thank you for letting me know .

maybebaby
6 days ago

Thanks for pointing out that the Trump corporate tax cuts, "When Congress in 2017 enacted the Tax Cuts and Jobs Act and substantially cut the statutory corporate tax rate from 35 percent to 21 percent, proponents claimed the rate cut would incentivize better corporate citizenship. However, the tax law failed to broaden the tax base or close a slew of tax loopholes that allow profitable companies to routinely avoid paying federal and state income taxes on almost half of their profits."
https://itep.org/amazon-in-its-prime-doubles-profits-pays-0-in-federal-income-taxes/

OnTheEdge OnTheEdge
6 days ago

https://www.nytimes.com/2018/03/29/us/politics/trump-amazon-taxes.html

trump is all over amazon but you are correct that act is the reason.

"While the tax cuts generally took effect on Jan. 1, some companies, including Amazon, have managed to deter or postpone tax liability from prior years as part of a grandfather clause included in the law,"

https://www.politifact.com/truth-o-meter/statements/2018/may/03/bernie-sanders/amazon-paid-0-federal-income-taxes-2017/

“From 2011 to 2016 Amazon reported a total $8.2 billion of pre-tax income and $944 million in federal income taxes, which amounts to a tax rate of 11.4 percent in the last five years.”


Well, NYC - a decidedly Democrat/Liberal location if there ever was one - is also giving Amazon a $3B tax break to build one of their HQ's there. ($1.7B from the state, another $1.3B from the city).

Don't blame Trump for that one.

Mark Mc. Mark Mc.
6 days ago

https://www.fiscal.treasury.gov/reports-statements/mts/current.html

The federal government collected a record $1,665,484,000,000 in individual income taxes in calendar year 2018 due to full employment as well - you can blame Trump for that one.

https://www.postandcourier.com/business/amazon-abandons-plans-to-build-a-new-york-hq-after/article_3da630c1-b1af-57b3-bf41-354ddebc8ed0.html

and Amazon apparently pulled out of that.


Amazon just announced that they are canceling plans for the NYC Headquarters. Even with the incentives (Give-aways by libs to libs), it wasn't enough. High Tax, Lib, states make it impossible for anyone to conduct a successful business.

In other news, according to the latest survey, 53% of Californians want to leave the state. This could be bad news for states like Texas if the Californians move there. They will bring their lib attitude with them. Before they unpack, they will be demanding their free government cheese. You see, libs are like locusts, they build nothing, create nothing, they just consume and tear things down. Just go to any site of a lib rally after it's over, the place looks like a sh&thouse.

Quack, Quack
6 days ago

did you see the deck on that? bad times

https://www.edelman.com/sites/g/files/aatuss191/files/2019-02/2019_Edelman_Trust_Barometer_Special_Report_California.pdf

here is the article - nobody can afford a house and the homeless are everywhere

https://www.sfgate.com/expensive-san-francisco/article/move-out-of-bay-area-california-where-to-go-cost-13614119.php


"You see, libs are like locusts." Now see. That's deplorable!

Amazon just balked based on not agreeing with the Queens/NY govt. --- they will not be hqtrd there.

Yeah, Trump is all over Amazon over taxes. Sure, that's what's got him upset....not paying taxes.....yeah.....he really hates that......can you say: WAPO.....

OK, I am coming down the homestretch, and will have my final effective rates very soon. Right now I am on both sides of paying more or less. Using my SOP, I pay more, but not that much. But if I dump the full IRA amount for the wife, I pay less. Still got a little fine tuning to do, it's very confusing. Appears the new standard deduction is pretty much a push against the massive deductions I could take for WAH, Charity, Investment and other deductions. For me, it just means some change given I had structured my life around these deductions and now will probably move away from some.

I am all in for simpler, just takes a bit to get used to the change. Reagan's version was much simpler than this and seemed more fair all around.

strangerdanger strangerdanger
6 days ago

Kind of funny how everyone wants to get out of blue states like CA, NJ, NY, etc... I thought the Democrats had all the answers? LMAO... We'll probably be leaving in the next few years. With my background I could make my same salary in a cheaper state where housing isn't outrageous and we'd live much better.

Metsman Metsman
6 days ago

"The federal government collected a record $1,665,484,000,000 in individual income taxes in calendar year 2018 due to full employment as well - you can blame Trump for that one."

One would expect EVERY year (save ones with severe economic downturns) to collect a record amount of individual income tax, with our debt-based inflationary economy being what it is and population growth, etc.

I don't know if that is anything that necessarily deserves credit or blame... but I'm sure Trump will certainly take credit as it being some huge measure of his great accomplishments and his idiot followers who have no capacity for logical thought will simply believe it to be so. But, hey... at least he's not Hillary (-;

ianimal ianimal
6 days ago

You want to talk about economic downturns... If Kamala Harris gets elected next year slap another $32 trillion to the deficit in the next decade after that with her medicare for all nonsense that abolishes private insurance. See, there's your logical thought. Or if AOC gets her way and plane travel and any use of fossil fuels are gone by 2030, including cow farts, enjoy eating Ramen noodles for dinner when the economy completely implodes on itself. Oh and then we'll probably get conquered by China and Russia because they never stopped using those fuel sources. LOL... It wouldn't matter how much taxes we bring in. Congress would find a way to overspend and expect the President whoever that may be to sign it. It doesn't matter who the President is. As long as you keep idiots like Pelosi in office for 40 years at a time, nothing will change. Her district is just doing super....

Metsman Metsman
6 days ago

Still pissed Gary Johnson didn’t make it ?


I'll give Donald this … he can brag about how things are the greatest ever and still keep manufacturing crisis after crisis to drive the news cycle and keep the attention on himself … what a hoot!

Andy Loigu Andy Loigu
6 days ago

Still? I don't think I ever was. It's not like he was some awe-inspiring candidate or anything, lol.

Now, Ron Paul 2012? Yeah, that one still stings a little bit.

ianimal ianimal
6 days ago

You should stick to sports Andy. It's funny the Dems call the border a manufactured crisis and all the law enforcement down there sing a different tune. Gee who should we listen to....

Metsman Metsman
6 days ago

Yeah agreed there I worked on his campaign - sad

Andy I thing Trump has some help from the MSM in generating crisis


My situation is similar to a few on here. I lost the 5 personal exemptions so that's a big hit and that doesn't offset the difference between doubling of the std ded less what I would have itemized. Luckily my RE taxes are nowhere near 10k so i'm not losing anything that i would have been able to itemize. The child tax credit is huge to me, that's a 6k credit vs what used to be 3k for me. I'm think that will help me to come out a little ahead of last year but I'm thinking it won't be a huge difference. My effective tax rate is usually only around 2% probably mainly from the child tax credit. We'll see.

Bryan_NC Bryan_NC
5 days ago

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