Video on pension funds Frontline
This will give you the clear image of where we are headed. Rough water ahead..
https://www.pbs.org/wgbh/frontline/film/the-pension-gamble/
Dodgebaal Retirement benefits are too generous period. Join the rest of society dealing with an unpredictable stock market and healthcare costs...
iJay Pensions aren’t generous enough!!! Here in New Jersey we once had a very robust well funded pension system.. Then politicians decided to steal from and neglect funding these pension funds!!!Personally the state should pay the billions of dollars they have neglected to pay in.That way all the IDIOTS who think that pensions are to generous would have one less thing to bitch about...Personally I think they should cut their welfare and food stamp benefits and apply themtowards the pension payments!!!!!!
Mr. Tone Entitlements must end. Freeloaders should have to save money like the suckers that work in the private sector..401k etc...no more freebies
Itiswhatitis"Personally the state should pay the billions of dollars they have neglected to pay in."
The "state" as you call them, are you, the taxpayer, and ironically, the state employees as well. The money to pay was neglected because you, the taxpayer, wanted a break every year, while wanting the benefits of a first rate school system. You just added police to the buildings, adding even more to the cost. Good luck decreasing that cost-you just keep adding to it like fools.
The winners will be the old goats that sell and leave the state, leaving the debt that they charged to the younger fools that are going to see sharply increased tax bills, decreased salaries, increased costs for benefits for themselves and their families, yet still pay inflated prices for houses in NJ that are not worth what they are listed at- it's almost like buying a toxic waste dump because when you purchase the property, you buy the debt of the government along with it.
There is only one correct way to fix this, and that is to cut all of the benefits equally between current employees AND ALL retirees, and to NEVER GRANDFATHER employees.
Sit back, grab some popcorn and enjoy the show. The party is just getting started. The greed is going to come back amplified many times- and as desperation increases, the entertainment will as well. Every day you are seeing the breakdown of the American way of living, this process is well under way. It will only increase in intensity.
The die is cast...
Dodgeball, did you pay into a pension system? I did, my whole career and also paid toward my benefits. People who went into teaching 40 or so years ago did it for little money knowing that they would get a pension, and benefits in retirement. Now, you are saying to cut these things to people who counted on them. It is understandable for those who now are making more money that they should contribute toward these in retirement.
Dodgeball- one of the few times I pretty much agree with you.
However, the quality of education in NJ ( by and large) is superior to that of most other parts of the country.
Also , being adjacent to the Greatest city in the world also adds a premium.
Be that as it may- these benefit commitments are IMPOSSIBLE to pay out.
It WILL NOT HAPPEN.
It is impossible under any theory or mathematical formula to make good on them.
Period.
Stymie "It is understandable for those who now are making more money that they should contribute toward these in retirement."
Not that I don't have sympathy- but really, those making more should contribute towards your pension- they may make more, but they now have to save more as they will not be given the same things-plus don't forget about inflation,especially in housing where seniors have had the most benefits, and college costs, which have greatly inflated over the last 40 years. Let's not forget that Social Security is going bankrupt and the youth is paying into that, along with Medicare which they will not receive as well.
Your pensions should have been balanced all along, but the greed of the pensioners, the cheapness of the taxpayers, and the spineless greedy politicians that did not control all of this caused the problems. You could have balanced it all along- now you ask the youth to pay for you.
Why do public workers have generous benefits on the "back-end"? Because your union negotiators knew that was the way to the highest total compensation. Politicians are about this year, this term; not 20,30,40 years into the future.
The bottom line, your union "negotiated" benefits that are excessive and not sustainable. I know you might not like the truth, but that is the truth. The truth is also that those already retired will probably continue to do quite well although their retiree medical may disappear (but they are on medicare already for the most part) and maybe their pensions are cut a minor amount. It is the teachers who start today, no more of the excessive compensation on the back-end...
"The bottom line, your union "negotiated" benefits that are excessive and not sustainable. I know you might not like the truth, but that is the truth."
I respectfully disagree- each year projected future costs could have been adjusted and additional funds allocated- but it is really hard for all that money to not be touched when those in power want to raid the cookie jar. A balanced budget each year could have made this work- taxes would have gone up substantially each year-this would have put a stop to this a long time ago- also,with taxes going up, home prices would not have risen at the alarming pace they did- it would have self regulated.
Negotiations are a give and take.. Unions employees, teachers, etc.. have given a lot for a guaranteed pension... Why should they or anyone vested in a pension system have to give more?In the private sector if a company failed to pay their portion of a benifits package heads would roll!!!! Would the employees stand for decreased benifits do to negligent neglect??? No!! Why should public employees???? Mabey instead of worrying more about illegal immigrants and free college for some the state should meet there obligation and properly fund the pension...The money is there no matter how much these lying crook politicians say!!!!
Also Dodgebaal do some research.. The pension was more than robust until Gov. Whitman declares a holiday and stopped funding the pension properly..That is where this started and with every other terd after it got worse..Also who is to decide what is excessive??? I think what Amazon and the mega corporations pay their executives compared to what they pay the rank and file is excessive!!!!!!! Public employees trying to retire and being able to pay their bills doesn’t sound excessive to me!!!!
"Mabey instead of worrying more about illegal immigrants and free college for some the state should meet there obligation and properly fund the pension...The money is there no matter how much these lying crook politicians say!" Your first part, sure, this is non related issue and should absolutely be addressed. You do need to cut spending. 2nd part-the money is there- no, it is not. The debt is there. Multiple financial statements done that prove that- I wish it was wrong.
Also, I do not need to do research about Whitman, the Republican who diverted the money and gambled in the stock market- then later gambled with first responders' lives at the World Trade Center. You can question her judgement yourself, I already have mine. Next, it was not me who used the word "excessive", I quoted someone else on the forum
Bottom line is the money is gone,and the debt is left in place, and as much as taxpayers and employees whine, those who took it, misappropriated it, gambled it, etc are not going to be required to pay it back. And retirees have no right to hold the youth ( who were not even born yet) to pay for the mistakes of those in the past. Not only that, it is becoming clearer every day that they will never be able to anyway, as much as you would like them to. Not to mention it is ethically and morally wrong. If retirees want to tar and feather those really responsible, I will buy a ticket to the show.
And Mr. Tone.
Please watch the video. Unless it will cause you physical distress, it is very informative.
It's a real eye opener....
Touchy topic. Promises made should be kept, even though those promises were unrealistic in the long run. Moving forward though, changes need to be made but IMO the pension system is just a symptom of the bigger problem.
No matter how one looks at it, government participation on the economy has been steadily increasing since the inception of the Federal Reserve which allowed for steady increases in our money supply, and indirectly made the system of inflation and borrowing from the future (aka unending debt) the useful tool it has been for the government to make promises that it happily thrusts upon future generations.
Well, the future is here and the conditions we see should not be unexpected. This is, after all, by design. It’s not any one politicians fault. It’s the fault of the system, and every Republicrat plays their part by taking what they can today with little concern for those in the future because the assumptions is always that inflation will save the day.
But does the trend hold true if the government itself has been slowly taking over more and more of the nations productivity for itself?
We’ve all seen the ever-increasing federal debt over the past 40 years or so, but what about the govt’s participation rate in our economy? How come that’s rarely discussed?
For example:
http://blog.jparsons.net/2009/03/us-government-spending-as-percentage-of.html?m=1
The economic trends have pretty much been unidirectional, and seeing them metastasize in various areas of the economy shouldn’t surprise anyone at this point...
justintime Dodgebaal, the pensions give much more than, say, a 6% 401k match. At my company, where we transitioned from pensions, the cost of a pension was calculated at 28%. Then there is retiree medical which is pegged to around 10% of salary.
We should not be funding excessive benefits anymore, understand the basic math?
"and every Republicrat plays their part by taking what they can today with little concern for those in the future because the assumptions is always that inflation will save the day." Nope, they have little concern because they have soooooooo much money and connections that nothing will EVER touch them or their families. They could probably burn hundred dollar bills for heat and not ever run out.
iJay,
I don't know, you may be right. Watch the video. It's good. So was College, Inc, where they talked about how these online schools rip off our children, and get them into debt with no chance of a real career. Or the one called healthcare around the world-where other countries get it right,but we enjoy our paying radical amounts of money for prescription meds (The price of Humira, an anti-inflammatory drug dispensed in an injectable pen, has risen from about $19,000 a year in 2012, to more than $38,000 today, per patient, after rebates) while our president does nothing. In his defense, neither did the one before him, or the one before that, or the one before that. Mostly because they are all eating from the same trough.
You can't save the amount of money to pay cash for a major visit at a hospital today. Some insurances cap at 1 million lifetime. One pre-mature baby can rack up a million dollar bill before it reaches 1 year old. Better have health insurance or have nothing in your name that a lawyer can sink his proboscis into. And the idiotic idea of choosing health insurance across state lines--really?? You will get something that is so worthless you won't find out until you are discharged from the hospital and there is the sheriff department selling your house. Just look at the rules between Pennsylvania and NJ on guns, fireworks, etc. 50 states with 50 different healthcare laws? You have to standardize something...
Did watch the video, Frontline always puts together nice content.
What does this you try stand for? How come Canada has a nationalized healthcare and pension system but the greatest country in the world doesn't?
This country has to stand for Americans.
iJay
Americans dont' stand for Americans, unless someone starts dropping bombs somewhere. Then there is a giant rally with flags waving. Until kickoff, when they go back to chips, salsa the game room, the beer for the men and the wine for the ladies.
It's a country based on individualism. Which is a good thing for many reasons-but like everything else is a double edged sword. Corporations are particularly good at exploiting this type of system, and it works well for them.
All it takes is one illness for you or a family member to go from middle class to poor in America. I personally know one guy who has a 7 year old son with a brain tumor- they had insurance- total bills- over 3 million dollars. Even if insurance pays 80 percent, you do the math. Not to forget being out of work, visits, copays.
So work hard, save, do all the right things- and still it's a crapshoot. Your kid gets sick, you lose your job, your wife is with the coach, you get a downgrade in your health insurance, you get cancer, it becomes a cascade like a 3 legged stool.
I forgot the kicker- you are now a loser with an old car, your house is no longer up to the standards your whiny neighbors would like because you have to choose between paying alimony and child support vs new siding on the house, your son does not have Nike sneakers anymore and is ridiculed in school, you get pulled over for bald tires when your ex has a brand new car that you are paying for, you end up divorced because now since your child is sick and you are broke she wants a new man with more money, you try to sell a few things at a yard sale and your neighbors call you a junk man-the same neighbors who did not have the same experience, and who go to church every Sunday like they are the most self-righteous people on earth.
America is a place where you have to win at all costs. Lest you be pictured on the website "The people of Walmart."
"I personally know one guy who has a 7 year old son with a brain tumor- they had insurance- total bills- over 3 million dollars. Even if insurance pays 80 percent, you do the math. Not to forget being out of work, visits, copays."
My maximum out of pocket is $4,000 for an individual and $8,000 total for the family in any given calendar year... so I would never be on the hook for 20% of some crazy sum like that, fortunately. I hope your friend is in the same situation.
ianimal Itiswhatitis & many others - i get it. you're jealous. you see some of these numbers and think you want that and deserve it as much as anyone else. and you feel you pay for them to get it. first, it's not an entitlement if you pay into it. do you feel your social security is an entitlement? you shouldn't, you funded it. it's the same thing, their pension was funded by a reduction to their paycheck. second, everyone's salary is what drives up prices i pay. sure, i get that you don't like taxes. but whatever you do, the price of your good or service is higher because i have to pay for your compensation. i'm sure everyone wishes your prices were lower. third, as I've said on this forum before, if it was such a great compensation, more people would be flocking to it. how much do you think people who have master's degrees in math and science could command in another job? the answer is much more than they make teaching.
“the answer is much more than they make teaching”
That should be re-evaluated regularly. It used to be a large disparity; today not so much. It’s an old argument that is just about out of steam and can be easily verified through published compensation data.
www.datauniverse.com.
Look up all of the local salaries that you want. Anyway, who needs a master's degree to teach kindergarten? It's a way to pad the pensions. OTOH, for high level sciences in high school it may be necessary. Also, if as you state, you pay so much into it, then why is it 80 billion in debt? Because you only pay part. And you were made promises. And then the state (the most famous was Christie Whitman) raided your kitty. It was wrong. The taxpayers at that time never put that money back, that was wrong, they wanted a tax break, that was wrong. Now you want to hold the feet of the younger generation to fire to give you what the boomers' stole. Sorry, that is wrong as well.
And on the outside, no, you would be competing from companies that do outsourcing-and H-1B visa holders.
Last of all, lets not forget that the pension fund is 80+ BILLION dollars in debt. This is an astronomical number, it is a fact, and it is a huge problem. It's been kicked down the road for years, public employees want more and more, taxpayers want to pay less and less. Politicians wanting to win so giving them both what they want, and leave in a few years. Bottom line is we know who the players are that got us here, but how do we get out-no easy answer. You are approaching the coffin corner, where there is little room for errors in judgement. Watch the video, it's very disturbing to watch.
The politicians are trying to cool this down like a malfunctioning nuclear reactor. Ain't gonna happen in NJ, we are too far gone. As stated in the video, one downturn in the economy and the dam is going to collapse. It's going to be ugly. Blame the politicians, but you won't collect a dime from them. Like scoundrels in the night they have pocketed their winnings and are off to the next scam.
Of course, pension on the last 3 years so get that salary up. Another is out-of-pocket maximums are only for covered benefits, perhaps they sought experimental treatment not covered?
iJay,
Sure this happens at times. Also, I understand that employees had an agreement. I agree that they should be paid, as agreed. However, the money is gone and the only thing left is the debt. Politicians played both sides of the fence, gave everyone what they wanted (poignant on election day) which was unsustainable. You can't provide a benefit on one end, then not put a payment for it on the other end (sure you can, it's called a bond like the one up for vote today) and not have it turn out poorly.
Leverage is the key. Banks do the same thing when they lend more than they have.
Problem is today's youth is facing a huge upwind compared to their predecessors. Much higher college debt, home prices, healthcare costs, competition from visa holders and outsourcing, robotics and technology (most dramatic now, that's even eliminating cheap labor.
Your president talks about employment, but when one states they created jobs, you need to know what types of jobs and how much they pay, and do they have benefits. We all know what types of jobs are being created. Not good ones. Retail is dying all around us- the Rt 57 thread comes to mind. Sears filing, Lowes cutting stores, empty storefronts- Christmas this year will be the nail in the coffin for more retail. Amazon creates jobs, but since they are so efficient, they eliminate 80 percent of the workers. It is what it is. The pressure will increase, the stress will increase, and the result will be seen on tv.
You can't get blood from a stone, and there are more rocks not visible under the surface that will soon appear. You are headed into the coffin corner.
My main issue is that the original promise was unsustainable; a deal made between unions and politicians. I am not morally bound by such corruption...
Trenton raided the fund. Why are people on here divided as to that fact? The money should be there and it isn't. Let's be neighborly and stop doing exactly what we say we hate about politicians.
OK, the raid actually starts with Florio and continues to this day. How much each raided, I am still looking, but mostly they just let what Whitman started roll forward. Meanwhile, Whitman also took more securities risk which was great until the dot.com failure from which it never rebounded.
Still looking for how much each raided, but on the flip side, there must be a list of how much each gov deposited too.
Meanwhile, the fund, under Byrne, is doing well today as far as investments go. That's a plus.
Anyone have those numbers for how much each stole, and how much each put in? Just might be interesting, although clear that everyone from Whitman forward is very, very, guilty of fiscal malfeasance.
strangerdanger iJay, I agree with you. The collusion between politicians and unions is what got the state in such fiscal dire straits. Union members vote for democrats and they get what you want in return. We saw a recent example of this when gov Murphy gave the unions not only a hefty raise this year but a retroactive increase, which Christie had not approved. Collusion at its best.
BC iJay & BC - there was no collusion between the individual teachers and the state government. they paid into their pension fund. the only way out should be for the state to declare bankruptcy and then the courts can decide who gets what on the dollar. but to suggest they don't deserve it because it was exorbitant is reprehensible. and it's only such a large number now because funds were removed. had it always self funded in a walled off account, it should be fully funded.
Your union not individual teachers. Doesn't matter in the end, that is loose logic to justify it today. How come you didn't take 401Ks? Because it would be less money, think 6% employee and 6% state = 12% salary. Pensions cost 2.5 times this amount.
If you chose pensions it would be in your name in full today, just that it would be 2.5 times less. Touche...
Root causes...here’s a clue:
https://www.weeklystandard.com/james-grant/congress-is-plenty-bipartisan-when-it-comes-to-ignoring-the-national-debt
21 Trillion dollars! And we have "money" for foreign non-humanitarian aid and loan forgiveness of other nations while we pay interest on it? In reality, the majority of the global currencies are in debt but as the world leader we should be in the middle of the pack at most regarding debt to GDP. Kick the can down the road by all. Just because Japan is at 224% is not justification for us to be ok with 104%...
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_public_debt
Good piece hopefully opening folks eyes as to the problem. It is IMO our largest problem, and it’s not Congress, it’s us. We just don’t care. Like our soldiers overseas, it’s back page news in today’s world. Both should be the shame of the nation.
Ijay: I think when you look for budgetary low hanging fruit, while foreign aid and loan forgiveness are worthy of examining, they are not even in the ball park with discretionary budgets for defense. More like second tier with Education, Government, Veteran, Housing, and Medicare. Defense is like $600B versus $70B for each of the second tier.
But, to remove our debt we will need to prune budgets, balance budgets, kill waste, and raise taxes. Additionally, we will need to raised SS and Medicare taxes while re-engineering ALL mandatory spending programs. Optionally, fix Medicare funding to not rely on General Fund budgeting and restructure to be more like SS funding. IMO. Back to JITs link.
We actually might have one of the aspects the author mentions, limited sovereign borrowing tied to the gold supply, in that, given our debt, IF we needed extra cash to help out in a recession (like the Obama Stimulus), we may or may not be able to come up with investors to fund it. If not, it will be like being on the gold standard’s fixed bottom line. And it’s not pleasant. IMO, the debt is that high.
I know that doesn’t scare folks, so think Sandy, remember those two or three days of trying to buy things. Now go to years…… Barter may be chief manner of spending. Hoarders may become Kings.
As to the solution, Grant was there before he saw the debt, but that’s OK. I agree with the need to attack the debt, but Grant’s solution does not do that, at least not enough, and not without some unmentioned regulatory help. The problem with the Gold Standard is that while it limits debt accumulation and interest spikes, it does not eradicate them. And it makes their negative effects much more painful. It plays heck with inflation and leaves us much more vulnerable to foreign manipulations.
I remember what Nikita Khrushchev said.
"We Don't Worry about destroying America. America will never be destroyed from the outside; they are destroying themselves, from the inside!" ............Just as President Lincoln feared!
Think about it! .....
Embryodad The Fractional Reserve banking system is the root of all evil in our economic system as it exists today. It allows the unlimited creation of debt and crooked politicians the power to decide who are the winners and losers by dispensing government largess as they see fit. Wall street is equally complicit in this scheme as they can buy all the favors they want from the government they control (Amazon choosing Long Island City ,NY and the tax breaks that Cuomo gave away, as a current example).For those of you that want to know the whole story of the formation of the Federal Reserve (hint it is a private entity controlled by banks for banks and is in essence a cartel where the profits are privatized and the losses are socialized.)read The Creature from Jekyll Island by G.Edward Griffin. It is an internet classic and a Ron Paul must read. "The people will be crushed under the burden of taxes. Loan after loan will be floated-and after having drained the present,the state will devour the future." Frederic Bastiat
hammer New Jersey in a number 1, but not for a good reason, again. Just mentioning a data point on pensions I ran across. Our tax dollars at work, or should I say not at work, but wasted.
Every-states-pension-crisis-ranked.
1. New Jersey
> Funded ratio: 30.9%
> Total pension shortfall: $168.2 billion (the largest)
> Gov't workers as share of total workforce: 13.7% (22nd lowest)
> Avg. annual payout per public retiree: $31,474 (10th highest)
https://www.msn.com/en-us/money/markets/every-states-pension-crisis-ranked/ss-BBPKBDZ?ocid=spartandhp#image=51
not surprised Average NJ pension is $31,474--- way lower than I and IJay thought.
Sorry about being so misinformed. The pensions must be funded now. It's a disgrace.
Frontine is PBS, and PBS is liberal, so FAKE NEWS.
Just kidding, Frontline is one of the most consistent and in depth news sources we have. Support them. Donate.
Eperot Have a buddy of mine who’s mother passed away recently she was 87. She was a teacher for years and retired around 60 years old with a nice pension. She ended up getting divorced after she retired and made my friend the beneficiary of her pension years ago. He now will receive 75% of her pension for the rest of his life he’s only 59. This one pension could pay out for nearly 60 years. Great for him but that’s whacked out.
Great Meadows I believe this has been phased out already, and yes it makes zero sense when the taxpayers of NJ need to fund these fantasies...
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