General Discussion of Religious and Spiritual Viewpoints
I am one of the Evangelicals that believe Jerusalem, being Israels capital, is a part of Biblical Prophesy. We are recognizing it as such today. This event is the second big event in my life time. The first being, in 1947 with the Jews back in the home land. These events are things that are to happen, before, He comes again. IMO. What are your thoughts ?
Oh my goodness Old Gent, thank you for starting this thread. I think there are so many here who would like to have a discussion about all things religious and spiritual, but there was really no "place" for that on HL, because I don't think anyone -- ever -- started a dedicated thread.
Many posters (including you) were saying some fascinating things about Christianity and the Bible on the free speech thread. I am praying ;-) that that discussion will continue here.
Spring Fever on the other thread had me dust off my Bible and read some passages, and I don't think I've opened that book in about two and a half decades (as I previously mentioned, I now subscribe to other religions- Buddhism/Jain- which aren't Christian). Forgot how great a book it is!
Two questions for you: can an Evangelical be from any denomination of the Christian church, or is Evangelical a group unto itself? I know this might sound like a really basic question, but again, I've been completely out of the Christian loop for a quarter century. It is my understanding than an Evangelical is simply someone who "spreads the good news." Is this correct, and how you would also define it? And if that is the case, can there be Catholic, Protestant, and Restorationist Evangelicals, for example? People from all denominations who simply take it upon themselves to bring non-believers into the fold?
Also- could you or anyone else provide a few verses/passages with the prophesies you mention? In other words: where in the Bible does it state specific things that happen before Jesus comes again? I'm sorry but I wouldn't even know where to start looking, and it's a really big book! Maybe Spring Fever can help me out with some more homework! :-)
I'd also love to know: does anyone else in these parts believe in reincarnation? (Personally I do not believe in heaven and hell.)
Evangelism is alive and well in the catholic church, it also can and does happen in all other churches.
In Matthew, when Jesus instructs his followers to 'Be fruitful and multiply' he is telling them to be evangelists for the word. To spread the 'good news'.
That's a very good thing.
When the bible teaches that we are renewed with the spirit, that in itself is a form of reincarnation. Our souls are renewed when they are bathed in the holy spirit. So let your love flow . . .
Got it, thank you, that clears that up.
Evangelicals all practice proselytization then, to one degree or another, correct?
Proselytizing is something I can barely wrap my head around. I don't understand why anyone would try to convince anyone else about things that simply cannot be proven. One religion can't prove it is better than another religion, so why try to convince anyone else of your beliefs? Most Buddhists feel this way, too. Here is an article on the exact topic.
Also, why do Jews not proselytize, either? Is it mostly Christians, and maybe Muslims (?), who do so?
I've never understood why Jehovah's Witnesses proselytize since they believe that only 144,000 people will be saved. The guy you recruit today could take your spot in Heaven tomorrow, lol.
Evangelicals all practice proselytization then, to one degree or another, correct?
Thats the main charge given to believers. Spread His promise to every corner of the earth. Grey Hawk is right. It is the duty of ALL believers in Jesus, to spread the good News.
You can spend a lifetime learning about the most important city in the world to three faiths."Jerusalem" It will be the capital of the world when He returns.
You cant wrap your head around it because, It is called Faith. Just as you stating,
BELIVE in reincarnation
I don't subscribe to any religion. I believe all religions to be cult like and created by man. To me, believing in God, Jesus, Allah etc. is akin to believing in Santa Claus, the Easter Bunny or the Tooth Fairy etc.
However, I respect other people's choice to believe in and practice whatever religion they so choose.
P.S. Please don't waste your time trying to save my soul. ;-)
From my point of view there is no "GOD" and I really do not see any need for any religion in the world !!! Simply a waste of time ...
And I agree with Cailco696 on the line below ....
P.S. Please don't waste your time trying to save my soul. ;-)
As a " Christian", personally, I don't go door to door nor do I stand on a street corner or just bring up the topic of religion up randomly.
if someone asks about my personal beliefs I will usually discuss it with them unless I sense an ulterior motive for asking, such as just wanting to pick a fight on the topic. I consider the subject of where one places their faith as a critical issue in the times in which we now live.
I place my faith completely in Jesus and what He accomplished over 2000 years ago, not in a specific religion or a denomination. It is all explained in one single Book. That sums up
What I have to say on this topic.
Why did I *know* that Calico would inject some fabulous humor into this discussion?! I must have some serious ESP. Something tells me Skippy may be swinging by here to enlighten us all at some point, too.
Here's a question I've been wondering for a long time:
Why do all of the atheists I've ever met fall into the category of the kindest and most humane people there could be?
And... think of all the wars that have been carried out, and people who have died, in the name of religion!
Atheism doesn't seem like such a bad thing to me. One might argue than it's better than *any* religion. I've never met any militant, radical atheists, personally.
@ Old Gent - I'll reply to you later when I have adequate time. :-) And again, thank you so much for creating this important thread!
As an atheist, l must concur with Rebecka. Those who share my lack of belief are usually truly fine people. Personally, l have always wondered if those who believe in religion are sometimes pious only out of a desire for divine reward in an afterlife. As an atheist, l don't believe in an afterlife, so this being the only world l'll ever know makes life more precious and important. Life is hard enough for most of us, so l try to just treat those around me with the respect and dignity l would hope to receive.
I do not believe in organized religion....I do believe in the spiritual aspect of God (or whatever you chose to call it) For want of another word I will stick to God, although I don't care what you call the power.... I respect other people's belief and do not want to change anyone, I have enough trouble taking care of my own spiritual beliefs...
I once heard this said "Religion is for people who are afraid of going to hell, Spirituality is for people who have been there."
I agree that almost all wars have been started in the name of religion. Also it seems everyone seems to want people to believe as they do, I often ask why? It's like wanting everyone to paint their houses blue..Very Very Boring...
Matthew 24:6–14 Christians are being killed every day in the world because of there faith in Jesus as, for told in the Bible. Just look at all the unrest in the Holy land today. That city has been destroyed any number of times and it still stands.
Citychick - I'm pretty sure you are wrong about most wars are started in the name of religion.
The 20th century was the bloodiest in history. More people were murdered for their faith then at any other time - in the name of ATHEISM.
Look into Hitler and Stalin and other totalitarian and communistic leaders of the 20th century, their views on religion, and let me know what you find out.
Ianimal that isn’t accurate. JW’s believe 144,000 rule with Christ in Heaven and everyone else will live on Earth under the rule of God’s Kingdom on Earth.
Where would you rather be, Metsman? And how does what you said contradict what I said?
It contradicts what you said because you only said 144,000 will be saved. Adam and Eve were meant to populate the Earth and live under God's rule. That purpose never changed, just got delayed.
scottso, Hitler killed Jews, Jehovah Witnesses. etc, Stalin tried to destroy all remnants of Christianity and the Jewish faith... You also could not join the Communist party if you had any religious affiliations.
Metsman, The bible is a beautiful book but it is not the end all and be all of beliefs. The book was written nearly 300 years after the fact. Translation and perception are tricky things, therefore I look at bible as a guide, definitely not the last word on how I should live.....
I was brought up with very strict religious beliefs. I began to question these beliefs as a child. So I have spend many years studying all different religions and came up with two facts.....Almost all religions have a form of Love they neighbor as thyself, And we where given a free will to make our own decisions
thanks for clarifying my point citychick. the people responsible for the murder of all those millions of people in the 20th century were atheists, it was not the 'fault' of religion.
A fire has just been lit in Jerusalem over religious/political issues.
That whole area is a powder keg just waiting to blow.
Regarding JW's belief everyone else would live on earth, the everyone they believe is only JWs. They believe God is going to kill everyone who is not a JW, therefore, the need to go door to door to convert.
Has anyone else visited the absolutely magical city of Jerusalem? The streets and markets of the old city... I can almost not describe the feeling. You are at every moment acutely aware that your feet are stepping on the same street where others have tred for thousands of years. The market vendors along the narrow covered streets have been in the same exact place for... I don't even know how long. But it feels like a millennium.
Today I celebrate the opening of the US Embassy in Jerusalem with the Israeli people, and all Jews of the diaspora.
scotto...Hitler was a Christian born and raised.....Check it out. Also Stalin's mother was Russian Orthodox and he went to a Christian School he also went to seminary school to become a priest, but dropped out.......Check that out... .
Well, there you go, kaci... that is indeed an important distinction. God is going to kill all the NON-JayDubs.... interesting.
My question then is: how can Hell possibly be any worse than an earth populated with nothing but Jehovah's Witnesses? That, and whose doors do they start knocking on then?
The bible is a very nice story book. Can someone tell me how Noah got polar bears, buffalo, kanga roo's and other animals from the other continents into his ark or how some humans lived to be hundred's of years old? The bible is a very nice story book handed down by the leadership to trusting easily lead minions who could not read or write let alone understand why things are the way they are.
Extremism whether it is political, economic, social and even religious is always an evil. In the long run sincere mutual respect, moderation and tolerance always prevails.
Moving the US embassy is a major mistake. Anyone who understands history, geopolitics and the big picture knows this. Only Iran, Russia and China gain by our action. Our allies, friends and key trading partners are pissed. Proof of this is only Guatamala and a few small South American countries support this move due to the large number of evangelicals in their country. Israel is less safe today and the world is a more dangerous place for everyone.
Citychik - Stalin may have went to Christian school but he forsook Christianity entirely and wanted to purge it from Russia. Atheism has been responsible for much more death and destruction than religion in the 20th century. It's not even close.
But people are so brainwashed against religion they believe the exact opposite.
"Atheism has been responsible for much more death and destruction than religion in the 20th century. It's not even close."
So.. you're saying that the fundamental cause of the World Wars in the 20th century was to force the world into not believing in God? That's completely asinine. Plus, you would have to calculate every casualty inflicted by the US as a "religious death" because none of our Presidents were atheists. The deaths of all those Japanese civilians in Hiroshima and Nagasaki? Christian murder. And Hitler wasn't an atheist... he was raised Christian, used Christianity to justify his anti-Semitism and eventually morphed his religious view into some conglomeration of German-Norse mythological pantheism.
Israel is less safe today and the world is a more dangerous place for everyone. I will buy that, Jono There are a lot more Prophesy's the Bible.
I was responding to the statement - "I agree that almost all wars have been started in the name of religion." Which is total bullshit. Tens of millions of religious people were martyred at the hands of the tyrannical regimes of the 20th century.
To infer that Hitler did what he did in the name of Christianity is asinine. Are you a holocaust denier as well?
"My feeling as a Christian points me to my Lord and Savior as a fighter. It points me to the man who once in loneliness, surrounded only by a few followers, recognized these Jews for what they were and summoned men to fight against them and who, God's truth! was greatest not as a sufferer but as a fighter. In boundless love as a Christian and as a man I read through the passage which tells us how the Lord at last rose in His might and seized the scourge to drive out of the Temple the brood of vipers and adders. How terrific was his fight against the Jewish poison. Today, after two thousand years, with deepest emotion I recognize more profoundly than ever before the fact that it was for this that He had to shed his blood upon the Cross. As a Christian I have no duty to allow myself to be cheated, but I have the duty to be a fighter for truth and justice. And as a man I have the duty to see to it that human society does not suffer the same catastrophic collapse as did the civilization of the ancient world some two thousand years ago—a civilization which was driven to its ruin through this same Jewish people.
Then indeed when Rome collapsed there were endless streams of new German bands flowing into the Empire from the North; but, if Germany collapses today, who is there to come after us? German blood upon this earth is on the way to gradual exhaustion unless we pull ourselves together and make ourselves free!
And if there is anything which could demonstrate that we are acting rightly, it is the distress that daily grows. For as a Christian I have also a duty to my own people. And when I look on my people I see them work and work and toil and labor, and at the end of the week they have only for their wages wretchedness and misery. When I go out in the morning and see these men standing in their queues and look into their pinched faces, then I believe I would be no Christian, but a very devil, if I felt no pity for them, if I did not, as did our Lord two thousand years ago, turn against those by whom today this poor people are plundered and exploited." - Adolf Hitler, 1922
Many wars were started in the name of religion and sadly continue on to this day. Where do you want to begin from in the timeline of history to review this?
Old Gent again I say the bible is a very nice story book and not to be taken literally. Anyone who believes in "all" the bible says is a fool. Have I got a bridge for those misguided people.
One billion people out of close to seven billion people who believe in all or conveniently chosen selective parts of the bible does not make it true.
jono It worked for me all these years through thick and thin and I had many more thin years. I had many more fiscal problems then most people and here I am at 88 expounding His word till I am called to leave this world from my Apt. This social Media is Amazing.
Hitler may have been brought up/taught Christianity; however, obviously, he did not practice it. For those of you aligning Hitler and other 'humans' like him to Christianity . . . Where did Christ teach such atrocious behavior? Therefore, these 'men' are not truly Christians. As thete are 'bad' so-called faith followers there are also 'bad' atheists, agnostics. Let us be kind, fair and humane to each other. Peace be with us all. Thank you. Maureen
Exactly Maureen, there are many self-righteous people out there who claim to be Christians. These are the very people who turn people off from Christianity.
Another thing that turns me off from religion, aside from the fact that I think it's fallacy, is when people get real pushy about it and try to force their beliefs on me. Anyone know why people do this?
A couple of years ago someone I know, but not that well, said something religious to me and then said something about me going home to pray on it. I respectfully told him that I am not a Christian, nor have any other religious belief. He was visibly appalled and went on to berate me in front of several other people. Telling me that I better get to a church as soon as possible and accept Christ into my heart or myself and my loved ones would be damned for all eternity.
Needless to say I ignored his warning of doom and gloom and so far, so good.
Exactly right. The church can be the perfect place for evil to hide.
It would be interesting to know what percentage of people in a church have committed adultery, yet sing like a sweet songbird on Sunday. It becomes the height of hypocrisy in a church.
I'm sure those parishioners then justify their actions in some sort of way to God, hey, God helps those that help themselves....
Nobody believes Greek mythology anymore correct? IMHO, all Western religions are equally story-like. Some Eastern religions are more in tune to nature; still probably made up but they sync with the natural world.
Maureen, while I dont disagree with you as a matter of logic and while your argument also holds true when it comes to lunatics like ISIS not being representative of true Islam...
Christians (including several Popes) have a history of anti-Semitism that is pretty much as long as the history of Christianity itself. From outlawing circumcision to forced conversion to seizure of private property and murder by torture..., that type of thing was instituted innumerable times over the past two millennia. So, even if Hitler had identified as Christian, his pogrom wouldn't have been all that unique, except in its brutal efficiency.
It’s tough being a Christian in today’s climate.
I attend church regularly and I’ve had times in my life where I’ve been less than close in my walk with God. I can’t say those times were great. While I was raised Catholic growing up, I definitely now consider myself more of an evangelical Christian. So, while I grew up knowing Jesus, I’m relatively new to studying the Bible and other religions. Sounds strange, but I do believe that I “know” more now than I ever did as a kid that went to mass DAILY and survived a lengthy stint in Catholic school.
There is a fantastic film on Netflix at the moment called The Case for Christ. It’s based on Lee Strobel’s journey from hardcore atheism to Christianity. What he learned along the way was fascinating and is incredibly thought provoking.
Additionally, I’d like to point out that the New Testament was most certainly NOT penned 300+ years after the death of Christ. There are very solid timelines that exist and have been accounted for.
There’s so much I’d love to say on this subject as it is one that I’m very interested in, but I’m not much for typing back and forth about all this. I’m on my tiny little iPhone keyboard, so it’s exhausting. I’d happily discuss these things over coffee though. I enjoy thought provoking discussion without an agenda and it nice to see this thread hasn’t yet taken a turn for the worse.
Calico696 I never use that approach. I just tell my story of what God has done for me, and leave any decisions to them. I try to leave as friends, since we really are created by God and there is nothing superior about me.
Scottso is correct.
Those who promoted Socialism were atheists. Religion was banned.
They replaced all religious holidays with state holidays. Baptisms were banned, and replaced by Name Day celebrations.
Penalties for those caught practicing religion were very stiff.
Why ban Religion? It's easier to control the masses when they believe their "omnipotent god " is their government.
America was founded on Christian religions and morals. (Their original concept of ensuring Freedom to practice religion basically meant you could choose Catholic or Protestant, and not be persecuted, as had been happening in England and Ireland.)
It is interesting to see how many athiests become religious again when faced with dire health issues, or when a disaster strikes, or when a loved one is suddenly hovering between life and death.
I was taught and truly believe that Jesus accepts everyone. All sinners (as we all are). Including all Non-Christians, such as; Atheists, Muslims, Buddhists, Hindus, etc.
My Christian belief that I try to live by, is that we are all brothers and sisters and judgement, hatred and division is the very thing that Jesus doesn't want.
I also, feel that religious sects divide Christians from each other and get in the way of having a true relationship with Jesus. This is why I do not belong to a specific denomination. I'm just a Christian, that's all.
Positive and Ianimal - you both are correct that self-righteous Christians, 'evil' Christians turn people off from Christianity but the point I am trying to make is that these people were not true Christians - Such is the not the tao of Jesus Christ. During history, wolves in sheep clothing prowl . . . Sadly, hiding behind religion, but the sad fact is these wolves also reside within atheism. Peace to one and all ⚘
It's funny, Older Mom... what you describe are pretty much exactly the methods that Christanity took to purge paganism. History does in fact repeat itself.
As for the founding fathers, it's been well documented that most of them were Deists, not Christian. They had every opportunity to designate Christianity as the national religion and chose not to. There also weren't any Catholics in this country to speak of at that time.
Scottso, like skippy, I suppose you could refer to me as an ethnic Christian... or a Secular Presbyterian. Either is fine. Atheist isnt exactly correct, because I dont discount the possibility that one or several gods exist or have existed.
However, I find the concept of a personal God, one who physically created everything in the visible universe and beyond and then sat back and spent the rest of recorded time watching humanity like a bunch of sorority girls binge watching Jersey Shore... well, some things are just too ridiculous to take seriously.
I'm with you on this one...
I also, feel that religious sects divide Christians from each other and get in the way of having a true relationship with Jesus. This is why I do not belong to a specific denomination. I'm just a Christian, that's all.
Ianimal, so your an an ethnic Christian, but Hitler a man who viewed Jesus as an Aryan fighter, a man, not son of god, and whose life he deemed a failure was a Christian? A man who disavowed the old testament, and wanted Jews wiped off the face of the earth was a Christian. He confided in all his close personal allies he viewed religion as a superstition. The fact that he would lie about he personal convictions on his rise to power, in a country that was Christian should be no shock.
I didn't say Hitler was a Christian. I said he used Christianity to justify his anti-Semitism. He used the story of Jesus chasing the moneychangers out of the Temple as proof that Jesus hated the Jews as well. Ridiculous, I know.
Even today, the vast majority of right-wing white power groups use the Bible as justification for their hate. Hell, even Trump is now claiming to be a Christian. He isn't any more of a true Christian than Hitler was.
"having a true relationship with Jesus"
How can you have a "relationship" with someone who supposedly died 2,000 years ago?
Too much condescension in this thread already to bother posting much. Everyone already has their chips placed squarely on their shoulders. The religious conversation in the other thread seemed less contentious to me. I don't understand why both sides feel the need to "convert" the other. My salvation is none of your concern, and your salvation (or absence of) is none of mine. I'll leave you alone in your atheism (or whatever) an you leave me alone in my Christianity, mmm-kay?
2 comments that caught me eye:
"Another thing that turns me off from religion, aside from the fact that I think it's fallacy, is when people get real pushy about it and try to force their beliefs on me."
That's exactly how I feel about pushy atheists. So I guess we're "even." (even tho you are not a pushy atheist and I am not a pushy Christian.)
"As for the founding fathers, it's been well documented that most of them were Deists, not Christian. They had every opportunity to designate Christianity as the national religion and chose not to. "
I know that you know that reason the Founders did not make Christianity (or ANY religion) the "national religion" has nothing to do with the fact that many of them were deists... and if that's what you actually think, you've missed the point entirely.
If you want a relationship with god, then choose Hinduism where you can pick one. A religion where there are many gods, one god, no god, etc.
Physical death does not change true relationships. I still have a relationship with my mother who died 30 years ago; perhaps, an even more intimate one. Love is stronger thsn people realize.
Our church recently had an entire series on common arguments against Christianity. The preacher played us a very short clip of Penn Jillette discussing his views on proselytizing. I found it very interesting given that Penn is a famously outspoken atheist. It’s about a minute long.
JR - I said pushy religious people, not just Christians. I should have said people pushy about anything regarding religion or the lack of it. ;-)
Maureen - At least you actually physically knew your mother. Did you walk the earth when Jesus supposedly did?
To be honest, I'm not really sure what type of "relationship" anyone can have with someone who is no longer living. I'm sure that loved ones that have passed may appear in your dreams and you might actually speak out loud to them at times. However, I'm quite certain they are not answering back.
Interesting comparison/contrast about being pushy. Who are fans of comics? Ever read both BC and Peanuts. Two artists both of which are very religious. One already had a number of strips during holidays but began to increase the religious content and often has direct quotes and sermons by characters. The other you would never even know by the statements but it just seems like something you would have known if you thought about it. The few indications seem more of history lessons than anything else.
Calico, good morning. Some relationships are physical, some 'more' than just surface. Difficult to define in limiting words; however, when one knows, one knows. Peace on this new day to our Hackettstown Life 'family'.
Calico, I agree with you there, ( last sentence), however, with God all things are possible , even communicating with someone who doesn't believe in Him. I gently recommend sometime when / if you feel led, to tell God you don't believe in Him, but you just wanted to make sure you were right. You can phrase that however you see fit and add whatever you want...then go about your normal life and see what happens. God has all different ways of communicating with believers and non believers alike. He even knows what in your past caused your present beliefs. i believe if anyone sincerely seeks the truth about God, He will answer your doubts in ways very personal to you so you will know it could only be God. Just a suggestion to any interested in trying it.. By the way, Calico asked a question above.... I am just replying not prostelyzing. Hope I spelled that right.
Here I am, not posting again....lol
I think alot of this stuff, regarding the metaphysical, also becomes contentious due to semantics. The term "relationship" is a good example. "A relationship" with Jesus, or who/whatever.... means different things to different people, and is not the same "relationship" you have with your own parent or any human, imo. Personally, I don't even use the term with regards to my faith, and that's ok.... this subject is so HIGHLY personal, meaning INDIVIDUAL, it's very difficult to to have a "manifesto" that fits ALL those who claim to believe in a certain religion, regardless of what it is.
Even I, as a Christian, have a very hard time with any denomination (Christian) who think ONLY THEY know the "truth" and only they have all the correct answers. Actually, I used to have a problem with it, now I just laugh at the arrogance of it all.
If a woman you know, happened to get pregnant today, and told you no sperm was involved, would you believe her? It's all about interpretation. Like the world being created in seven days. A day could be a billion years, in the mind of the author. Religious people are usually happier. It would feel great to know "I have God or Jesus on my side." That reminds me...got a couple of questions. From the ten commandments, " thou shall have no other God before me." What about Jesus. People pray to Jesus, instead of God are committing a sin? What about worshipping statues or symbols (the crosses with a tortured Jesus, for example). Sin? If Adam and Eve had two boys, who are their wives? Their sisters? Wouldn't that be considered blasphemous? ...but just to be on the safe side, I talk to our controlling leader. No, not Trump. The other "big guy"". God,religion can get complicated. Think I'll let the mystery be.....
Calico696 + The one thing Christians believe is. God is a living God unlike all other Gods. I believe His spirit is with me as I am writing this note. I believe He lead me to start this thread. The main part of this thread is, I BELIEVE.. Where do others put there faith.
To " guilty"... I'm "cleaning " so this will be short.
Jesus and God are one, when you pray to one, you are also praying to the other as I interpret it from Jesus words in Scrioture.
Worship of statues... Not good
Yes, they were their sisters.
"Worship of statues"....
Apologies, I haven't read the whole thread, I've had a bad weekend (funeral)... really makes you not care about crap that doesn't matter LOL
Are we talking about the Catholic's veneration of Mary? Isn't there a difference between and "admiration for" and a "worship of"? And as for praying to Mary, she's a saint, right? And praying to saints has always been ok, and not considered "worship"... altho I am not an expert on Catholic doctrine...
Each religion believes its lies are more accurate than the other religions lies. Every religion uses God to defend the evil it does on others as the will of God. This includes those who do not believe in God inflicting harm on those that do, in whatever flavor it arises in.
Buddhism claims to be peaceful, unless it justifies killing the Muslim Rohingas. Christians evangelicals claim to be peacefu but demand that Muslims be punished for their beliefs. Muslims preach peace but still kill Christians and Jews and Muslims who believe a slightly different flavor. Catholics kill Protestants who also kill Catholics.
The Jews in Gaza instruct snipers to shoot women and children, because they want to celebrate the building of an Embassy in a City that every disparate faction of monotheism says supports its flavor of faith.
Sorry I'm afraid there is more evil in faith than there is good, if not in words certainly in action.
I would edit this to say:
Certain individuals in every religion use God to defend the evil they do on others as the will of God.
This can include your neighbors, relatives, spouses, co-workers, forum posters, etc- and it does. It's a form of self-righteousness.
Some will send their "flying monkeys" to do their bidding as well, with a church being a perfect breeding ground for monkeys. If you don't know what they are, Google it.
"Every religion uses God to defend the evil it does on others as the will of God. "
Calico, Jesus is very much alive. He died and rose from the dead.
I can't see him, but I feel him..I feel his spirit. The holy spirit.
It's not easy to explain and it's not easy to understand.
Oh, this is in response to your question about my relationship with Jesus.
Not pushing my beliefs on you. Lol
Catholics pray to Mary and the other Saints to petition God on their behalf. They do not worship Mary or any other Saint. I believe the rationale is that since Mary and the Communion of Saints are closer to God than we are (they are already in heaven with Him as we are here with all the evil influences that come with it) that they are used as intercessors. Yes I know it sounds like splitting hairs, but there is a difference between that and worship. The tradition, as I understand it, is that Mary is the ultimate intercessor for us with her son Jesus Christ as in the story of The Wedding at Cana.
Disagree. More charity has been done through the Christian religion than any non-religious entity. And no I don’t consider the redistribution of wealth (basically at threat of prosecution) the same thing as freely-given charity.
-I can’t speak to the charity done by other religions, as I am not familiar with them-
And while you may see them as “lies”, which is your right, others see your opinion as foolish, misguided, and frankly condescending. Which is their right.
And I have to check my facts, I can’t at the moment because I’m out and about, but I believe communism has killed more people than all religions .
Somebody please correct me if I’m wrong on that .
Communism- ATHEIST by design. Interesting...
Absolutely correct. The bible is a book. For example, book vs movie- book says woman with blonde hair- one person creates vision of blond woman that looks like neighbor, other person creates vision of blond woman that looks like Marilyn Monroe. Watch the movie and the blond woman is Michelle Pfeiffer.
With a movie your mind does not create the image, it's there for you already.
With a book, the image is self generated and individual.
Same thing with a sermon in church. You listen to it, then see how it applies to something in your life, many can usually find a match-even from the past. This again makes it individual to your life.
The exception would be a technical type book/manual.
"It's all about interpretation."
"Calico, Jesus is very much alive. He died and rose from the dead.
I can't see him, but I feel him..I feel his spirit. The holy spirit.
It's not easy to explain and it's not easy to understand."
You can say that again. No offense, but that statement just sounds completely irrational to me. Like saying you see pink elephants. I feel the same when people say they have seen ghosts. I don't believe in that either.
Not that anyone has stated this:
Being an Atheist does not make you a communist or a socialist.
Being a communist or socialist does not make you an Atheist.
Someone can be one, the other, both, or neither.
Being a capitalist does not make you religious/god accepting.
Being very religious does not make you a capitalist.
Someone can be one, the other, both, or neither.
One can be a mix and match, blend of different things.
One can believe in part of one religion and part of the other.
Humans are complex individuals that, through experiences, change all throughout life.
I believe we were all placed in this world by God and so we are brothers and sisters. We were given many talents. Some are leaders, and some are servants at different levels. You are free to use them as you see you’re calling. I choose this path.
1 Peter 4:10
As each has received a gift, use it to serve one another, as good stewards of God's varied grace:
I have served on most of the leadership roles and committees of my church. It is a 1,400 member Church. I was a Sunday school teacher for years so, I got to know many members children, and the parents knew me. I did not care for the top jobs. I did serve as a Deacon for many, many, years. I did a lot of visiting in the hospitals, nursing homes and home bound.
Where ever I worked, they knew about the lord I worshiped eventually. We had a Bible lesson every Wednesday noon, in one job.
This little old me, gained the respect, from, Judges, Politicians, Teachers, Professors, Doctors, neighbors, and co workers. and I am still short of my responsibly to God. In another word. A SINNER.
You're right, it does sound irrational and I knew it would come across that way. Just being completely honest about how I feel.
"You can say that again. No offense, but that statement just sounds completely irrational to me."
I am a person who strives for empirical evidence for most things. From a rational standpoint what you believe makes all of the sense in the world.
However, (this is my take) this is a subject where such evidence can never be proven. It's never going to happen like in the movie Oh,God, he is going to pop up in a courtroom. I cannot discount nor can I prove that God exists. So if someone tells me they believe, and I believe they are trustworthy, who am I to argue otherwise?
I have lots of questions for him should he ever appear in front of me like George Burns...
Dodgeball, there's no time like the present. He's right there in front of you now. I triple dare you to talk to him!!!...
Jesus and God are one if you are Christian - but not if you are another religion...............
August, I read your fiset paragraph and substituted “government” and “President” accordingly and it was incredibly accurate!
You are correct 4catmom, They were the chosen people till Jesus came and spilled His blood to include all people with His New Covenant for all
Actually 4cat, that reality would have nothing to do with what religion you are.
Or, Satan conned you all into believing the word of a Man over the pretty clear and unambiguous declarations of Jehovah in the Old Testament. Did you really think that the tormentor of Job was just going to turn over a new leaf and become kind and loving? Better bring some sunscreen, Scottso... you're going to need it where you're headed. Muhahahahaha (-;
This is very interesting. I was watching a YouTube video on property for sale in Great Meadows, well, I unintentionally came across this video:
Don't let the beginning discourage you. It gets much more meaningful throughout the clip.
Raëlism - believe that an extraterrestrial species is responsible for the genesis of humans.
now this I find interesting
4catmom, I believe what scottso is saying is that Jesus and God ARE one "in reality", regardless of what YOU think. The fact that you don't believe it doesn't make it any less of a "reality".
It’s beyond me how anyone can believe in an unrealistic scenario where God and Jesus are the same person. Might as well believe in Thor and Loki and the eternal realm of Asgard…. LOL…
Who's to say I'm right or Scotto is right or anyone else. No one really knows, but how about we try to respect each other's differences.... maybe we can learn something from one another.
whether or not God or any other deity is 'real' has nothing to do with what religion you are. God is either real or he's not, irrespective of what anyone believes.
So, if you don't mind my asking Metsman, what was it like growing up as a JW? Did you catch a lot of crap in school for not standing for the pledge? Did you resent not celebrating birthdays and Christmas? Was there anything special about the fellowship at a Kingdom Hall that might be different from other Protestant denominations?
If you don't want to answer, that's cool and I don't mean to put you on the spot, but the non-Trinitarian attitude combined with yesterday's posts seems like you have some unique experiences and outlooks that maybe you wouldn't mind sharing with the rest of "the class".
Have yourself an Ancient Aliens marathon.
You'll be converting next week.
@Agust, Muslims preach peace? Somebody forgot to tell them. You have daily examples of Christians being killed by Muslims in the name of Islam. This Muslim family in Indonesia just strapped a suicide vests on themselves and their children all pictured here, and blew themselves at a church killing innocent Christians because they were Christians. You have any examples of Christians doing likewise. Sorry not all the same.
Good guess ianimal. I stood for the pledge, just kept my hands at my sides. JW’s are taught to be politically neutral, because they await God’s Kingdom to take over on Earth. Didn’t really bother me with birthdays or holidays, because my parents always bought us stuff. I have no experience with Protestant churches, but usually people are very warm at the KH. Nothing is perfect. I haven’t been a part of anything religiously for the past 8-9 years.
"No one really knows, but how about we try to respect each other's differences.... maybe we can learn something from one another."
No kidding. Why does disagreement ALWAYS seem to turn to disrespect and ridicule/disdain/etc. Ridiculing someone only shows the lack of confidence of YOUR OWN beliefs, whatever they may be. Or that you're just a jerk. Or both.
But just to balance out the ridicule in this thread, which from what I've seen has gone all one direction...
Thought so... My apologies for the lame jokes yesterday. My best friend in elementary school was a Witness; he was also the only black kid in the class. I got in a lot of fights defending him from ignorant d-bags who didn't like him for one, the other or both of those characteristics. So, I should know better than to make ignorant comments of my own.
Possibly Skippy, Calico and I now need to form our own separatist group. ("The Ultraweirdo Club?")
And OMG sorry I'll be contributing something serious when I have some actual time.
Is THAT where that crazy-haired meme guy is from??? I always wondered, having seen his face so often LOL
We now know why you don't understand that the illuminati are controlling everything. It's because you've never watched the best show on Earth. This explains everything.
Ok back to serious discussion now.
Doesn’t bother me ianimal. I haven’t been a JW for years. I’m at a point in life where I don’t feel the need to embrace anything. One thing the JW’s do right is they don’t get involved in armed conflicts. How many catholics and protestants killed each other in the world wars? What kind of brotherhood is that?
Started watching it last night, Rebecka. Utterly fascinating..so much to process. I'm going to try to finish watching it tonight..started taking notes.
The Ultraweirdo Club - fnord all heil eris!
Denis, there are lots of example of peaceful Muslims, just as there are lots of example of peaceful Christians, Jews and Atheists. If nothing else the Red Crescent, Red Cross and Doctors without Borders.
My point is not to praise any religion as peaceful, simply to show they all claim to be peaceful, but all have demons in their midst that use the one true "whatever" to commit evil acts. As exemplified this week in Gaza.
@Spring - I believe positive is referring to the movie/documentary which was posted by Calico on another thread.
Here, you go, Spring Fever. Calico posted it on another thread. A must watch!
Thanks Rebecca! I'll try to squeeze this in tonight and that other To do List item. ; )
@Denis as to Christians performing evil acts, really? How about the burning of Black Churches, the killing of Amish Kids in PA, the lynching of over 90,000 blacks across the south, the kid in Oklahoma dragged behind a truck for being gay, the shooters in Parkland, Columbine, Las Vegas, Charleston. That's just off the top of my head between conference calls, and not using google.
No religion is exempt form evil people using it as an excuse to do Gods work..
Positive, I watched your you tube suggestion from earlier while waiting for my grandkids at school. Wow! Thank you! ... And wasn't that a coincidence your finding that while looking for property in great Meadows...; )
@Agust Total BS examples. Was the Vegas shooting inspired by Christianity? You have some inside info? The only group that claimed credit for it was ISIS, Muslim. Where the Amish children shot in the name of Christianity?? Parkland, Columbine, all total BS, nothing to do with Christianity. I can point to incidents on a weekly, if not daily basis done in the name of Islam. Try again, off the top of your head was a failure. To top it off you use Charleston where Christians were the victims slaughtered while in church. Get real.
Are we really comparing Christian on Christian crime to:
Ramadan 2017: 174 Attacks with 1,595 killed.
Ramadan 2016: 238 Attacks with 1,850 killed.
Ramadan 2015: 314 attacks and 2,988 killed.
Ramadan 2014: 272 attacks and 2,329 killed.
Ramadan 2013: 310 attacks and 1,651 killed.
Ramadan 2012: 260 attacks and 1,206 killed.
I’m sure these numbers are just coincidental and have nothing to do with Ramadan itself though.
Then we have three families acting as suicide bombers for ISIS in Indonesia.
One family split up to attack two churches, another brought their 8 year old daughter and blew themselves up at a police checkpoint, and the third suffered a premature detonation that killed the mother and eldest daughter before police killed the father.Fortunately, the 8 year old girl miraculously survived.
This year is special in that not only is it the start of Ramadan, but America’s Embassy to Israel just moved to Jerusalem and Muqtada al-Sadr’s party appears to be winning in the Iraqi elections.
Yep, the same Muqtada al-Sadr who killed dozens of American troops during his war against the Coalition may possibly end up as Prime Minister of Iraq.
I'm glad some of you are enjoying the movie from Icelandic Watchman. I watched again myself the other day, since I hadn't seen it in a few years. Food for thought for sure regarding how things are run in this world.
Calico696 I watched it when you first posted it. ALL of it I sent it to my family. Doubt that they watched or I would have heard about it. My father was a Master Mason. Neither of his sons joined. We were too committed to Jesus',s work. Some Reverends were Masons. I never understood that I was glad you posted it. I have been saying it for s long time.
Spring Fever, that's the thing, I don't think it was a coincidence.
As you well know, God does works in mysterious ways.....
Top 10 Biblical Tales
My Christianity did not try to purge paganism. Perhaps you are referring to the zealous Catholic Spaniards?
My Christianity follows Christ's teachings. Not Catholicism (They have extra books in their Bible, and overemphasize Mary, and they also added Purgatory.)
I have met nice Catholics, but our beliefs differ.
Trying to follow Christ's teachings is what I try to do. Its not easy!
America pushes gluttony (food and material acquisitions ) and I don't know a lot of humble people. I feel surrounded by Lots of entitled pompous people, and lots of people who think of rules as being mere suggestions.
I have raised my 6 children to be Christians. Only 1 seems to be straying.
I strayed a bit in my youth too
But there is a reason people return to God .
We must admit there is a higher power.
And this God will guide us through the turmoil we face on earth, and guide us when our souls leave their mortal confines.
Heaven or Hell may be just regurgitating all that we have done, or all that we have failed to do as earthlings.
So we Christian people try and make our lives count, by being kind and good and obedient to God's laws. Most important:
Do unto others as you would have them do unto you.
And be kind whenever you can.
That will make you feel good at the end of the day, as well as at the end of all your days on planet earth.
Here is another, Spring Fever and for anyone else that is interested.
Have you watched Passion of Christ?
I saw it with my mom in the theater...I still get goose bumps just thinking about it.
It is a masterpiece.
"Do you want fear to rule your life?"
The ones strong in their faith have no fear. But you wouldn't understand that, having only the outside viewpoint. There is no fear in my heart with my faith. We don't "be good" because "we are afraid we might to go hell", that's a child's view of faith. But you'd have to dig alot deeper than I think you have to get a deeper understanding, which you clearly are not interested in.
In my personal experiences, the atheists are the ones who seem to be "worried" about something.... or scared... and pushy.
And on that last point, pushy, religious people might try to get you to be a part of their faith, but atheists just spend their time trying to prove you wrong. It's not even that they want to join them, they just want to be right (my suspicion is, to grow their own confidence that THEY are not wrong.)
And of course it goes without saying, as we reply in this thread, and make our generalizations, we are not talking about "ALL" -insert demographic here-. But I've never met someone who wanted to prove me wrong so badly as an atheist.
And I have nothing against atheism (except the superiority complex it displays), your salvation is none of my concern. That's your responsibility. And my salvation is none of yours. You do your thing, I'll do mine. And please, stop being offended every time someone wants to put up a Nativity at Christmas Time.
"... because media and the government just promote stories as the truth..."
Fixed it for ya. ;)
I agree with the media and government statement. And sometime its stories are used to promote religious stories.
Faith in a power greater than myself is what motivates me every day...It is not in a building or a book or a name, it is in the breath of my life. It is so simple yet can be so hard to find...As for the atheist I feel sorry, what a lonely existence...Thank you Older Mom I like your simplicity....Faith is not hard but we sure seem to complicate the heck out of it, with explanations, rituals, books etc....It is so powerful and so peaceful just have a little faith....
JR, tell us all about the time when you were standing around minding your own business and an atheist came up out of the blue and started accosting you with his beliefs about there not being a God. I'm going to assume that your experience is similar to mine and that it has NEVER happened. Do you want to hear about the dozens of encounters I've had with overzealous Christians?
The situation is similar in a scientific respect in that you don't hear people of science standing on street corners screaming that the world is round or that there's NOT a giant alien mothership hiding behind Mars. In fact if there weren't people going around trying to convince people otherwise, you'd never hear from them at all. But when the situation arises, it's necessary for people of reason to shine a light on the perceived ignorance in the form of scientific debate. However, the debate kind of comes to a screeching halt when the best the other side can come up with is "it's God's will" or some such. That's just the way it is and will likely remain, so there's no point in getting worked up over it.
And atheists will probably stop being offended about religious displays on government property when you stop being offended by people trying to enact gun control laws (-;
"JR, tell us all about the time when you were standing around minding your own business and an atheist came up out of the blue and started accosting you with his beliefs about there not being a God. "
This has happened to you dozens of times? BS. With the exception of the door-knockers (whichever religion they are), I have serious doubts you were "standing around minding your own business" and were then "accosted" with someone's beliefs...DOZENS of times. You can keep saying it, but I won't believe it. Confrontations like these happen in discussions like this. A discussion is not "being accosted" unless you offend quite easily. Which I know you don't.
As to your 2nd point, I'll make you (the gun grabbers) a deal: I'll agree with ZERO tolerance for religious displays on PUBLIC (WE own it, the government doesn't) property, if the 2A can be my carry permit, as originally intended. ;)
[I'm not saying you're a gun grabber, Ian... it kinda' looks that way, just couldn't figure out a different way to say it]
I'm a gun grabber? LOL, hardly. But, I understand the difficulty in arguing with someone who doesn't actually disagree with you (-;
As for it not happening to me dozens of times (in person), it certainly has... at the Supermarket, at parties, on my college campus, on my front porch, etc. It's probably happened to you dozens of times as well and just seems to be part of the natural course of things and therefore doesn't register as anything remarkable.
But, since you brought up the online discussion aspect, how many threads have been started entitled "There is no God" or something similar? I don't recall any.
The man that discovered the drug used for Parkinson disease, taught an adult Bible class in my church. I guess he was stupid.
Was he able to develop the drug based on his knowledge of the Bible or his knowledge of science?
I would say his knowledge of science, but he knew Jesus so he gave all credit to God.
Did he fill out the patent paperwork under the name Jehovah or did he actually keep some of the credit for himself?
(Just kidding with you... please don't take offense)
"I would say his knowledge of science, but he knew Jesus so he gave all credit to God."
The Jesus I know makes fantastic tacos and guacamole. ;-)
Holy cow, this is such a great discussion. It's moving so quickly, and all that free time I had is quickly evaporating... that all I can do is just be a thread wallflower and read all your great/ interesting comments! And there are so many of them! Wowza.
The person who came up with The Big Bang theory was a Catholic priest. There is a long history of science and education in Catholicism.
He did what Caesar required,
through his employer/ for it to released for mankind.
scottso, how are the Jesuits perceived by the more conservative members of the Catholic Church? Pope Francis was the first Jesuit ever elected Pope and it doesn't appear that you care for him or his policies all that much.
Older mom, you wrote, "America pushes gluttony", . . . "I don't know a lot of humble people", "Catholics overemphasize Mary", . . ."I feel surrounded by a lot of pompous people", . . We associate with people of similar mind, Older Mom, you don't sound like a real Christian.
Hey ianimal, I'm not sure how Jesuits are perceived by conservative members of the church. Didn't know Pope Francis was the first Jesuit so you taught me something today - thanks.
One of the things I found is that the Catholic church is roomy - it is filled with lots of different people with all sorts of opinions. Safe to say that we all agree on the propositions in the Nicene Creed though.
I'm also pretty sure that I don't have to agree with everything the Pope says and I still get to be Catholic! The Pope's specifically have to state that what they are saying is infallible or something along those lines. Everything a Pope says is NOT dogma. TBH I don't follow what Pope Francis says too closely so I could not comment on it.
So, you guys don't tell liberal Jesuit jokes down at the Knights of Columbus then? That's good to know... (-;
"There is a long history of science and education in Catholicism." And a long condemnation history as well.
"More than 350 years after the Roman Catholic Church condemned Galileo, Pope John Paul II is poised to rectify one of the Church's most infamous wrongs -- the persecution of the Italian astronomer and physicist for proving the Earth moves around the Sun."
Dodgebaal the Catholic church is filled with people. And ALL people are sinners and people make mistakes you will get no argument from me on that.
But I don't think you can say the Catholic church today is anti-science. In fact, it's just the opposite. Here's a quote attributed to ianimal's favorite Pope :)
"The Big Bang, which today we hold to be the origin of the world, does not contradict the intervention of the divine creator but, rather, requires it."
I wonder how the atheists will react once science proves the existence of a soul!
Ever hear of this scottso
There’s definitely something quantifiable that leaves our body after death
@scottso, I haven't heard that quote before, but it is a great one and I would think make anyone ponder the possibility Science today has no answer for that.
It's not like Pope Francis's theory isn't without opposition (-;
"Because there is a law such as gravity, the universe can and will create itself from nothing. Spontaneous creation is the reason there is something rather than nothing, why the universe exists, why we exist. It is not necessary to invoke God to light the blue touch paper and set the universe going." - Stephen Hawking
Spontaneous creation has as much "explanation" behind it as religion does lol.
Something from nothing. Sounds incredibly like anti-science to me. Or perhaps.... faith.
I'm not saying that it was created by God, but with all due respect to Stephen Hawking at the very best that statement is a speculative theory that in now way can be demonstrated by science. When it comes to understanding how the universe works, I'm sure there is a vast amount more that we don't know and understand, then we do. I'm also sure as much as we like to think of ourselves as intelligent creatures, there are things in operation that are beyond our senses, and brains ability to understand or see.
Exactly Denis and you can't have gravity without atoms. So where did atoms originate from? What about matter? We can go on and on about this, but it all comes down to who got the ball rolling?
The highest power is responsible. He is Science.....
"Spontaneous creation?" Well, if my hot flashes don't cease, I'm going to fall victim to spontaneous combustion...
Quantum mechanics can certainly be counterintuitive on many levels. Here is a better explanation by Dr. Kaku (the grey haired Japanese physicist who is almost as ubiquitous as Neil deGrasse Tyson on the Science Channel and elsewhere in popular science) of Hawking's theory although he ultimately disagrees with the whole God angle.
Hinduism supports this. Not that Hinduism is the "true" religion, rather much of it is derived from advanced observation and insight into Cosmos long ago. Hinduism is a religion of many Gods, with the "true" God unknowable which could mean that he/it does not exist, he/it is more of an orchestrator.
The "truth" is yet to be fully understood and may not be for hundreds or thousands of years; maybe never as we are players in a game in which our observations cannot see the true reality. Only through inferences may we get lucky to get a hint of true understanding.
Since I was bashed on the school bus thread, I guess I will come over here.
So Christians, please explain to me what kind of "loving" God allows for children to be killed and injured in school bus accidents? Or any other worthless tragedies?
You will say He doesn't, right? That's not his plan? Ok, so that mean man is left to his own devices. This suits me fine as I am all for the YOYO (you're on your own) plan.
I see people saying that they are praying. What are they praying for? Can prayer turn back time and make the accident not happen. Can it bring back the dead? Faith an hope at this point should be in the first responders, doctors and nurses tending to the victims who are injured. They are the ones with the power and knowledge to save and heal the wounded.
If there is a God, and prayer works, why doesn't it always work. Are some people's prayers more deserving of answer than others.
My Catholic friend died of cancer last week. I know she and her Catholic family prayed really hard for 5 years in the hopes that she would be cured and be able to see her two young daughters grow up. Didn't happen, she's dead anyway. So what was the point of prayers?
Of course I didn't pray for her to be cured, since I have no religion, but I did "hope" that she might be cured through the miracle of modern medicine. She did receive all of the possible medical treatment she could, but it wasn't enough.
So IMO prayer, even if you do believe, seems like a full blown waste of time.
Calico696 I agree with your points. You’ll have people saying God needed an angel, so he had little Johnny turned into a pancake by a truck. That’s something the gods of Olympus in Greek Mythology would do. Everything set in motion is mans plan. When people get murdered or killed in accidents that has nothing to do with a god. It has to do with decisions people make.
You were bashed because several children were killed, and your first thought was here come the law suits, and your second thought was let me bash the people who are praying for the victims.
As if there won't be lawsuits. Which I will never understand. They don't bring people back any more than prayers do. I did express my hope that all would be ok. But you don't bother to mention that.
Denis where do you see several were killed? Calico696 now you know how I feel when people take stuff I say out of context. People like the spin cycle...
I agree with Denis, but I understand all of your questions and I can only imagine your pain Calico.
I've had the same questions throughout the years. I wish I had the answers, but I don't.
We don't live in a God loving world so things happen as Metsman said by mans actions. God worshiping people have no fear because we have a loving God and know where we are going. I watched my daughter die. The medical profession kept her alive for a year. I gave Him thanks for that. In this case, some one made a mistake or broke the law causing people to be injured or die. I pray for the survivors and there family's, that God gives them the strength to see them through these trying times.
Of course there will be lawsuits, but that's not the first thing that comes to mind when there is an accident involving children. Maybe they are praying for the injured, or for strength for the families who lost children, either way it doesn't affect you, and it does bring comfort to those who have faith.
Why be anal about it? One death, two, five? That wasn't the point Denis was trying to make.
Sorry Denis, didn't mean to speak for you. I know you're a big boy...
One site says multiple fatalities but that could mean the 2 that were already confirmed.
You people are sick!!! A child is dead, and the only thing you can do is argue about why God did this or does he exist. Really?? Ask that to that child's mother. I am sure tonight she is asking God "why" her child. You people are to sick for me when you take a tragedy and turn it into a talking point.
@ianimal, so I finally had a chance to read that answer from Dr. Kaku, a couple of times. To me it doesn't show any evidence to support the universe arising from nothing. The bubble analogy doesn't fit, because the bubbles were actually created from the presence of other bubbles. As far as the Earth analogy you can place earth in the vacuum of space far away from any objects so there is no gravitational effect taking place, but that doesn't mean the earth ceases to exist, just there is an absence of any gravitational effect. I love to listen to all these theories, and I'm a fan of Dr. Kaku, but I really think when it comes to the true origin of things, it's beyond any quantifiable scientific explanation. At least at this point. Did you ever see Fr. Robert Spitzer on TV. Usually very late at night, but I haven't seen it on for years. Very interesting take on the origins of the universe, parallel universe ect. Hard to follow though, he throws so much information out so quickly.
I'm sorry you feel that way Auntiel, I am also very disturbed about what happened today. However, Calico took her thoughts, concerns and questions to the appropriate thread and I'm glad that she did.
When tragedy occurs, it's only human nature to place blame, usually God is the one who gets most of the heat, but these things should and need to be discussed.
Unfortunately, you will always have certain people that will use a tragedy to satisfy their own agenda. I'm sure you can figure out for yourself who they are.
I think you are taking it a bit out of context, far too literally.
Maybe your are questioning your faith, why your God allows such a thing?
No, certainly not questioning my faith. I wish I had the answer, but I do not.
Maybe you should ask him? Seriously, not being a wise guy.
Denis, it's difficult to boil a 200 page book down into a sound bite or a two paragraph blog posting, especially when dealing with such alien concepts as quantum theory. The book is called The Grand Design and it includes plenty of mathematical backup for its conclusions. Check it out. It's an interesting read even if you disagree with it.
Just as an aside... I think it's funny that you read Kaku's blog post and say "meh, nothing to see here", but when the Pope says that the Big Bang Theory confirms the existence of God without so much as a whisper of logic to defend it.. that particular nothingburger impresses you so much that you think it will baffle modern science. No judgments, just an observation.
Sorry, but your God is just a story to me.
Scientific approach to God via Hinduism:
If you are willing to put the 1:30 in and pay attention you will understand. Please post comments about what you have learned.
Calico asked the question, so I googled it and found this. Obviously this will not change someone who doesn't believe into someone who does, but it's an answer nonetheless:
When wondering why God would allow bad things to happen to good people, it’s also good to consider these four things about the bad things that happen:
1) Bad things may happen to good people in this world, but this world is not the end. Christians have an eternal perspective: “We do not lose heart. Though outwardly we are wasting away, yet inwardly we are being renewed day by day. For our light and momentary troubles are achieving for us an eternal glory that far outweighs them all. So we fix our eyes not on what is seen, but on what is unseen, since what is seen is temporary, but what is unseen is eternal” (2 Corinthians 4:16–18). We will have a reward some day, and it will be glorious.
2) Bad things happen to good people, but God uses those bad things for an ultimate, lasting good. “We know that in all things God works for the good of those who love him, who have been called according to his purpose” (Romans 8:28). When Joseph, innocent of wrongdoing, finally came through his horrific sufferings, he was able to see God’s good plan in it all (see Genesis 50:19–21).
3) Bad things happen to good people, but those bad things equip believers for deeper ministry. “Praise be to . . . the Father of compassion and the God of all comfort, who comforts us in all our troubles, so that we can comfort those in any trouble with the comfort we ourselves receive from God. For just as we share abundantly in the sufferings of Christ, so also our comfort abounds through Christ” (2 Corinthians 1:3–5). Those with battle scars can better help those going through the battles.
4) Bad things happen to good people, and the worst things happened to the best Person. Jesus was the only truly Righteous One, yet He suffered more than we can imagine. We follow in His footsteps: “If you suffer for doing good and you endure it, this is commendable before God. To this you were called, because Christ suffered for you, leaving you an example, that you should follow in his steps. ‘He committed no sin, and no deceit was found in his mouth.’ When they hurled their insults at him, he did not retaliate; when he suffered, he made no threats. Instead, he entrusted himself to him who judges justly” (1 Peter 2:20–23). Jesus is no stranger to our pain.
Romans 5:8 declares, “But God demonstrates his own love for us in this: While we were still sinners, Christ died for us.” Despite the sinful nature of the people of this world, God still loves us. Jesus loved us enough to die to take the penalty for our sins (Romans 6:23). If we receive Jesus Christ as Savior (John 3:16; Romans 10:9), we will be forgiven and promised an eternal home in heaven (Romans 8:1).
God allows things to happen for a reason. Whether or not we understand His reasons, we must remember that God is good, just, loving, and merciful (Psalm 135:3). Often, bad things happen to us that we simply cannot understand. Instead of doubting God’s goodness, our reaction should be to trust Him. “Trust in the LORD with all your heart and lean not on your own understanding; in all your ways acknowledge Him, and He will make your paths straight” (Proverbs 3:5–6). We walk by faith, not by sight.
Rich, the last two verses is exactly how I feel about Christ. Thank you for posting that.
iJay, please do not tell me what to post, as I never tell you what you can or can not post.
Also, I've never questioned your belief or non-belief, but you keep questioning mine. Why is that?
I don't believe in your religion. If you have strong faith, someone posting on a forum should not shake this right?
I am a Deist, meaning (to me) that god exists due to everything I have observed in my life.
There are incredible intricacies in all natural systems. Breaking down the nature of matter (think quantum and string theory, for example) only leads to more mysteries.
Throw in synchronicity, paranormal experiences and all the rest and you end up with something that is far greater than the stories some accept as articles of faith.
The gods of organized religion are insultingly small. From the pissed-off for eating forbidden fruit, animal and child sacrifice, pissed-off and flooding the world stories of the old testament to the Jesus stories, you really gotta be kidding.
Most people worship a construct. God is a "he," limited by all sorts of attributed masculine attributes. God gets pissed off and chooses sides in football games and wars because some praise "him" more than others.
Oh, and don't eat meat on Fridays or miss worship....god'll get pissed.
....and this god is so small, that "he" demands weekly praising and glorification to appease "his" massive ego.
Looking at this construct, I find many humans to be better people than this "god."
I don't know the true nature of god, but I'm a hell of a lot more comfortable after fully rejecting the constructs of revealed religion. Their constructs of a vain, emotionally unstable guy who likes to wear a crown and sit on a cloud surrounded by androgynous badasses with wings are pretty demeaning if you spend the time tothink them out.
The moral and life lesson wisdom that threads through the better parts of those stories are, like any universal perceived truths, fine with me, however.
Check my last video jjmonth4, just to appreciate the scientific and logic-based assumptions about God. I think you would get the idea based upon your last post.
Thank you Rich for attempting to answer my questions. Unfortunately, what you posted seems like a lot more nonsense to me.
Just to be clear. I have read the Bible more than once. Just trying to understand it. I am someone who has a quest for knowledge and I wanted to try to understand what most other people who I know believe as "gospel". Either fortunately, or unfortunately, depending on how you view it, I don't see it any different than reading Gone with the Wind or The Scarlet Letter. Just a story. Or a bunch of stories.
Please don't misunderstand me, as I think many of you may, I have no issue with people of faith. Everyone needs to feel comfortable with what they believe. If your faith in religion helps you through life, far be it from me to discourage you from that. My faith in life comes from within my own heart and mind.
Just because I don't subscribe to any religion doesn't make me a bad person. I am always at the ready, as some here that I have met know, to help anyone when the need is there.
positive - Thank you for your concern. I'm broken hearted over the death of my friend.
I can see that Calico, I'm so so sorry. Please do not hesitate to PM me, whenever you feel the need. I'm a pretty good listener...seriously.
Sorry iJay, re-read your post... my misunderstanding.
How about we make a deal? I will watch your video if you watch mine (posted a few days ago, some scrolling is necessary). What do you say?
@Denis. Fr. Spitzer is still very active and has many videos posted on EWTNs Youtube channel.
Much the same as I wrote off the top of my head. Rich I just didn't back it up with scripture. I am a bit busy, Thank You for your posting.
@ianimal, I find the Pope's statement an interesting idea to ponder, which I have for some time. It doesn't mean I agree with it, but my inclination is there is some grand design to the universe beyond our earthly understanding, but I don't have full faith in any particular religion and would consider myself agnostic. I do believe that modern science is truly baffled by the question of where did everything come from, not by the Pope's statement.
iJay, I watched most of your video, not all, since it's getting late. I really like Swami, a very interesting and intelligent man. Even though I have a different faith, I completely understood and related to Swami's philosophy.
If I'm understanding it correctly, it seems very similar to my belief. Brahman=reality=knowledge=infinity. Brahman is everywhere. No limitation in time, limitless, always present and eternal.
Sounds very much like my god.
Ok, well I hope you live up to your part of the deal?
Science and faith are NOT incompatible as many atheists would have you believe. Many scientists believe in God (gasp!)
So please kids, know that you can be a good Catholic, Protestant, Jew, Muslim,, Hindu etc. etc AND a scientist at the same time!
We are talking about the spiritual vs. physical planes. Science only deals with the physical. There is no empirical data for love, mercy and justice. They can't be seen under a microscope, but everyone of us knows what they are.
Not my religion but part of my philosophy. II think a lot of the high-level concepts make sense from a scientific and logic perspective. Hinduism is more of a philosophy than a religion BTW. There are no hard and fast rules you need to follow, in general. This is how it is tolerant of Agnostics (actually embraces some aspects of this) and Atheists.
Many people get caught up in all the Hindu gods, they are all just a manifestation of the true God which is unknowable.
God is limitless in time, space, and object.
Therefore, God is everything but everything is not God. (<--- THIS IS THE KEY)
You just have to invert your normal daily default thought pattern.
Time - God is limitless, no beginning and no end (We are limited in our current form, a birth and death)
Space - God is limitless, it is everywhere (We are limited, existing in one point in Space at any given moment; maybe a Quark is in two)
Object - God is limitless, he is all objects (We are limited to one object at a time)
"Highest gods" which are all manifestations of God, but not God:
Brahma - Creator
Vishnu - Preserver
Shiva - Destroyer
The above is what most people think Hinduism is, together they fulfill the circle of life of this universe. In the Vedas there are many universes and ours is considered to be on the small side. Just remember, they are the highest Gods other than the true God, which has the traits elaborated near the top.
Hinduism is a religion of absorption. Since God is manifested into everything, Jesus and Allah are gods.
Below this are all the other manifestations of God and since God is everywhere he is everything. An example of the wave and water was given. Water manifests itself as a wave but a wave doesn't manifest itself as water. In this example, water is the analogy to God and the wave is the manifestation of God.
I will leave this post with a link most know, Oppenheimer's famous quote after the first nuclear test explosion from ancient Hindu scripture:
Calico said, "Just because I don't subscribe to any religion doesn't make me a bad person. I am always at the ready, as some here that I have met know, to help anyone when the need is there."
Thank you Calico, and I can attest that you helped a person move into their house some years ago, even though you never even met the person. And all you wanted in return was some Rolling Rock, if I recall.
That person was me, by the way, if anyone didn't pick that up. :o)
I think we should all worship Thanos since he has all of the infinity stones now. ;oP
Do you really have to give "god" a name, an image, a pattern of behavior, emotions and a gender?
These are all projected human constructs,and they all limit the construct they worship.
Never figured out the "worship" thing, since most great "is's" worth their salt might find it eminently tiresome, not to mention annoying.
But, my construct probably....I don't know.
So I observe, and act, in the context of inherent human morality....and it is something we know intuitively as sentient beings, not something dictated to us from a pulpit.
Doesn't much matter what I say, though.....
Senseless wars, obsessions with baby-bumps and royal weddings, hating your family members during Thanksgiving because they voted for the "opposite" (I won't get going about the utter stupidity of the dichotomous mind) political party.....and let's not forget "internet firestorms" that the common gnat probably remembers better than those who cared for a split-second.....
...matter more, in the mass-mind.
Revealed religion is a similar human phenomenon.
Please get going about the stupidity of the dichotomous mind. No idea where you are headed. Thx!
God created man in His own image, in the image of God He created him; male and female He created them.
"Therefore you are to be perfect, as your heavenly Father is perfect.
But we all come short of that Glory
And He is the radiance of His glory and the exact representation of His nature, and upholds all things by the word of His power When He had made purification of sins, He sat down at the right hand of the Majesty on high,
To judge all people
I just pointed out how we were ALL created. As you all know I don't get to excited about things in Caesars world since, most of the things man dose are of his own making. Seeking power,and Money.They never have enough of either.Things that are in the Bible, are things that are foretold to us before He returns, It just shows he is infallible, IMO
Luke 12:7 Indeed, the very hairs of your head are all numbered. Don't be afraid; you are worth more than many sparrows.
I love reading your posts Old Gent..always uplifting.
Bible class 101 right here on HL. Please keep it up.
My Pastor , Sunday, Dr. Stanley had a great message about , being born again. In one line he said the closer you are, the more important it is. Thats where I am.
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