Natural gas furnace
I know there have been similar topics but I was hoping to get some price info from anyone who has recently replaced a gas furnace. I have a 2500 sq foot home and was curious as to how much I should expect to spend.
Any input would be appreciated.
Jaysquad I have about the same size house. Depends on furnace you buy, how well the house is insulated, and how the duct work is placed. My highest bill last year was 280$ during the coldest month. The average was 180$
Forcefed4door Last November, I got a 3-ton 90%+ efficiency (it was higher but I can't remember exactly) Lennox gas furnace installed by TGM. ~$3500. It qualified for $400 in energy rebates from the gas company and NJ. So net cost was $3100. That included the permit.
TGM did a great job. One day install, clean work, and professional installers all the way. They also gave me a quote for a matched AC unit when it comes time to replace the old one.
emaxxman I had mine done last month, 2800 sq ft colonial, the A/C unit was totally shot and with the motor on the furnace going it was time to do the whole HVAC. There's a big difference in equipment based on how efficient. You have to compare apples to apples when you get quotes, for a furnace the number you want is the efficiency. An 80% unit vs a 95% unit makes a big difference and the price on 97% and 98% units goes up quickly. For A/C it's all about the SEER number. Units with 13 or 14 SEER are not nearly as costly as 16 SEER where the unit does cooling in two stages.
That said I got quotes from 3 companies and the combined furnace/AC ranged anywhere from almost $11,000 for 95% furnace and 16 SEER two stage A/C made by top of the line Carrier, down to $5800 for 95% furnace and 12 SEER A/C made by Lenox. I'm sure I could have gotten an even lower quote for the older 80% furnace but that doesn't pay in my opinion. You not only don't get the rebate but you no longer save on the gas bill which is what eventually pays you back.
I decided on TGM for the work & the Lenox equipment but going to 14 SEER was only a couple hundred more and paid $6200. The more efficient unit will save that in just two month's summer electric bill. Anything higher on the SEER would go to two stage and that's a good $1500-$2000 more. That I really didn't see justifying.
If it was just the furnace, I would expect the cost from TGM to be right about what emaxxman paid. One thing to remember is this was a straight replacement of the existing unit. I already have all the gas lines in, all the pipes, and all the duct work necessary. Anything that needs to be redone there will only increase the price.
emaxxman - It would be 95%, the same unit I got.
GC Nice info GC should help some folks.
Generally residential folks go with the higher/highest efficiency gas furnace (95-98%) as the extra cost is minimal for the fuel savings. AC units are different and spending beyond the middle grade won't pay back in savings in this area where you use AC for only part of the year. Then there are nice extras:
Humidifier - Be sure to get it, dry air cracks furniture/drywall/hardwood/cabinets over time and dries eyes and noses
Electronic Whole House Air Cleaner - Good choice, especially if folks have allergies
Brands? Carrier and Trane will cost a bit more but most brands are good. These days it is thought to justify the high end brands unless you are sure you will be in the home for a while and want to pay for a premium unit. Don't get me wrong, all the manufacturers generally make solid products. Most problems come from installer mistakes and oversights.The installer skills are very important as install specs are not simple and slight jerry-rigging at install may affect system reliability/longevity.
Don't go with the cheapest bid if the installer is not experienced and in business for a while.
I do like Honeywell electronic components. If you want to go with a smart thermostat, Honeywell is the only reliable manufacturer (except for the Lyric model); stay away from Nest...
iJay What's the concern with the Nest?
Honeywell makes thermostats that are wifi enabled so can be controlled remotely, but the only one that's "smart" meaning it's adaptive and does testing is the Evohome. Isn't the Evohome only 240V/15A for the UK market? The Lyric maybe crap, but that leaves only low end but wifi enabled Honeywell products. Do they do any graphing or motion detection?
PS - None of these products works if you choose the high efficiency two stage AC units. They have their own custom thermostats.
This is not a low end model and it is very reliable. Reliability comes first, I have had it for 1.5 years and no issues which is important when one travels:
http://amzn.com/B00V2RO1WS
I miss the motion detection for sure and the self-learning, but again reliability is #1 with me and until the Nest improves reliability it can wait. I have a coworker with 5 of the units listed for almost 2 years with no issues.
By the time I get my next HVAC system Honeywell's offering should be better. But remotely accessing the system with my iPhone is enough to justify it for me. You can even use it from the Wink app too...
I understand the Honeywell is not low end, but it's not smart. As far as reliability, I'm not even sure what unreliable would be. I've had one for over three years now and not anything I would ever describe as unreliable. How long did you try one for?
Did not try. Was going to as on paper it looks pretty damn good. But too many problematic reviews. You must have read a bunch of these, but your install seems to be good. A big part of the issue may have been trying to sell to people who don't have the C wire for 24v power...
I don't have a C wire. Nest runs a test sequence against your wiring and figures it all out even if you put the wrong wires in the wrong place. It knows both with and without common, at least starting with 2nd gen units. (they're in 3rd gen now)
That can be the problem with just googling reviews - sounds like they were old and didn't know what they were talking about. As a user of Nest I can say that it either works 100% reliably right away after putting the wires in, or it is not compatible and tells you so. I have no reliability concerns with Nest after 3 years of use.
As far as comparison, the Honeywell is practically a play toy when it comes to "smart". The Honeywell does a quite reasonable job of being remotely controlled and manual schedules. But it's really all manual, at least the non-Lyric models because that was a product not yet available when I was testing them. If you only want remote control as a feature then buying the $99 entry level wifi Honeywell is the way to go based on the price. If you really want smart that learns both your preferences as well as the capabilities of your equipment, and matches that with outside weather conditions, Nest is the only one that really delivers what it promises.
I have a Honeywell wifi stat:
http://www.amazon.com/Honeywell-Wi-Fi-Smart-Thermostat-RTH9580/dp/B00FLZEQH2/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1448290078&sr=8-1&keywords=honeywell+smart+stat
I love it, I don't want my thermostat learning my occupancy since my occupancy always changes. So what was most important to me was to be able to turn the system on and off anywhere via smart phone app, and be able to adjust my schedule anywhere. The Honeywell does learn your heating system and adjusts to how long it takes to heat or cool your system up or down by the time of scheduled occupancy.
GC, you are confusing the terms "smart" with "learning"
The term "smart" is commonly referred to units that are Wifi capable in the controls world.
"learning" is the ability to learn your schedule as well as your system
Honeywell is listed as a "smart" thermostat, where as Nest is listed as a "learning" thermostat, big difference, and depending on what you are looking for will make your decision. Honeywell is not low-end by any means, yes they do have lowER end models, but they offer great products as well
When I installed the "smart" Honeywell, I installed a larger 40va transformer for my doorbell, and tapped off of that 24v for my thermostat power since my boiler did not have 24v available. The 24v transformer in the Honeywell boiler controller is circuit board mounted with no auxiliary terminals.
Darrin I have a programmable Honeywell (14 years old now.) Would having one of these new ones provide any reduction in heating/cooling costs?
Cooling runs about $100 a month at the highest in summer.
Heating is about $220 a the highest...~$30-35 is just for hot water and cooking...so let's say $190 for heating.
My wife is home all day so we don't have an "away" period but we do lower the heat at 10pm and it starts up at 6am.
I'll say, the constant refunds we're getting from the gas company are nice. My last bill, that I just got for end of October to November, was a whopping $17.
I like the smart feature for those times you go out and forget to turn down the heat/cooling, or if you are coming home early and want the house warmed up/cooled down. It gives you the ability to adjust anywhere, if you have a smart phone or computer.
Really with someone home all day, and if the above does not apply, you would not see any saving unless you have multiple zones with seperate zone valves that are not occupied when she is home IMO
I've wanted that smart feature too. Coming home to a 90F house after a vacation is brutal. Not sure if its worth the cost to upgrade though. Thanks for the info.
Darrin - It's not so much confusing the terms as my idea of "smart" has nothing to do with the terms the thermostat makers use. It's my own completely personal idea of what's really smart and what isn't. ;-)
emaxxman - The $99 Honeywell is exactly what you want. It'll do the remote and keep a set schedule for you. No need to spend any more than that on features that won't help you.
I completely understand GC, just in the controls world that is the given names, so I didn't want anyone getting confused. We now live in a era that just about everything is Wifi compatible. To think they used to sell laptops that didn't have Wifi is a absolute outrage! LOL
GC, if there is no C wire (24 volt continuous power) then it only gets power when the furnace is running and storing enough on the lithium battery for the other times. I would bet that your HVAC is running quite often year round to not run low on the battery. Have you ever left for a month in the summer, come back and the unit might have exhausted the battery???
iJay - I can tell you for sure the HVAC is not running quite often just for the battery. It may well only get a charge during heat or AC cycles, but that seems to be enough to charge it just fine. I don't ever leave for a whole month, but have been on vacation this summer for over two weeks. No low battery condition, but when it's on auto-away there is very little for it to do. Nest says the life span of the batteries is like 7 years which means the number of charge cycles can't be very often. When it has 24V but only needs a couple of V (3.7) it must be fairly efficient both in the charging and the usage. I have never had a low battery message ever in 3 plus years, and I have never seen it run just the fan unless I specifically tell it I want the fan.
I did read about a software or hardware problem that was causing the wifi to connect very frequently running the battery down. Obviously not your issue.
On paper, the Honeywell is a smart thermostat (but not the smartest) since you program in your zip code and it pulls the temperature from the internet. When you set schedules, it will have the temperature or cooling reach that point by the set time. It has a simple algorithm to determine when to run the system before the set time.
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