Flu shot
Just curious - How many folks get the flu shot. Im late 50's, active, non-smoker, non-drinker, no health issues. Last 5 years I have gotten the flu shot but toying with the idea of skipping it this year. Knock on wood have not had the flu in 20 years - every time I get the shot I walk around with a sore arm for 5 days. Just re-thinking it this year. What is everyone else doing?
Treetops 
plc I always get a flu shot.
Never got sick- until about 10 years ago.
Got the flu.
Felt like jungle fever. Sweats. Real bad scene.
Lost maybe 20 pounds in 5 days.
Couldn’t keep anything down- not even water.
Didn’t ever want to go through that again.
And hey, it’s free with any kind of coverage.
Better safe than sorry is my motto.
But that’s just me.
Stymie I am a firm believer in getting the flu shot and so is my husband mostly by trial and error. It seems the years in our lives we did not get it...we got the flu...so a no brainer to just get the flu shot as soon as it is available..
joyful I am in my early 50s and have never gotten the flu shot. I have never gotten the flu.
Walking Girl 
Calico696 I get the shot every year. No side effects, no sore arm, no fever. No flu. Can't see any reason not to just go get it. I go to Rite Aid pharmacy and they are great.
Lonesome Dove 
DCP 
3wbdwnj Never have voluntarily got the shot, and never will. (who knows what the gov stabbed me with decades ago).
Also have never got the flu.
What a gamble- lets put mild forms of bad things in our bodies- hope our body 'gets stronger' because of it- but no promise whatever strand of whatever bad thing is 'this years' version of bad things.... see you again next year!
No thank you!!
Josh 
Flustinks I think the stats can really guide you and the rest is anecdotal, experiential, conspiratorial, or poppycock. For example, I mean the whole I don’t get the shot and I never got the flu is as stupid, or as smart, as I always get the shot and never got the flu. Both can be true and yet tell you absolutely nothing.
Heavy, huh?
Strangerdanger Copied this from Facebook. Best response to the flu shot question that I’ve ever seen...
Welp, I went and did it. I read the comments on someone’s flu vaccine post and in the process lost 5,642 brain cells that I can never have back. I’m going to say this real clear so that hopefully someone hears my voice louder than Lindsey the bartender who identifies as a ‘health wellness coach’ because she was “certified” by DoTerra essential oils company. At least I can sleep at night knowing that my friends list (and whomever they share this with) heard the voice of an ACTUAL certified medical professional.
1. You cannot get the flu from the flu vaccine. Ever. No matter what anyone’s told you. You CAN get an immune response such as low grade fever, mild inflammation, or local redness and swelling. This is GOOD. It means your body is fighting the inactivated virus it’s been exposed to and it will build immune cells specific to fighting that virus if it ever sees it again..... hence the entire premise behind getting vaccinated. It takes your body about two weeks to build fighter cells and for the vaccine to reach its maximum protectiveness. If you get sick within a week or two of receiving the vaccine, then you were exposed to influenza and hadn’t yet received protection from your vaccine. Crappy timing.
Period.
2. The vaccine does NOT cause strokes, auto-immune diseases, or severe allergic reactions. There is a very small percentage of people who’s bodies do not react normally and therefore those people should not receive the vaccine. Let me put it this way; I swell up like Violet in the Willy Wonka factory if I eat avocado. I think we can all agree that avocados aren’t dangerous, my body is the problem, not the food. Likewise, the vaccine is safe but like all things (even avocados) it can be dangerous for certain people. I cannot stress enough how rare this is, even though literally every online guru with a degree in alternative wellness claims to know someone it’s happened to.
3. If you’re healthy, good for you. No, seriously, good for you. You have the luxury of deciding whether or not you want to get poked. If you get the flu, you’ll miss a couple days of school, maybe a week off of work and then you’ll return to your life. That’s not the case for many people in our community. When healthy people vaccinate, we protect the newborns and the grandparents and the chemo patients and the ones who truly cannot receive the vaccine. It’s called herd immunity, and it’s the cornerstone of a healthy society.
4. You did not get the “stomach flu” from the influenza vaccine. The stomach virus commonly called the “stomach flu” is not a flu at all. Stomach viruses are commonly caused by novovirus or norovirus , not influenza. If you have symptoms such as vomiting and diarrhea with a fever right after receiving the flu vaccine you are the unfortunate recipient of a sad coincidence. This sad coincidence is not uncommon since peak seasons of these virus’ activity overlap. I know you don’t want that to be true, but, science. In that same vein, if you get “the stomach flu” on a year you’ve received the influenza vaccine, your vaccine did not fail. The vaccine you received does not protect against stomach virus. Stay tuned though, vaccines for these viruses are all but guaranteed to be common in the coming years!
5. The drug companies and the CDC and all doctors and all nurses and everyone ever who advocated for vaccination are all paid by and/or brainwashed by big pharma to sell these vaccines by convincing others. Yeah... just no. I’ve never received a check or any other compensation from anyone to advocate for vaccinations of any kind. I don’t know a single person in the medical field (and I know a lot) who has ever received a bribe. I’m just about the most cynical, skeptical human out there and I require a lot of research & data to formulate my opinions, again, most of my colleagues are no different. If I really wanted to look out for number 1 (me) wouldn’t I try to drum up business at my ER by convincing others NOT to get the flu shots? Wouldn’t I WANT people to become sick so that I had job security?? $$ think about it people. This rationale is just ass backwards. I advocate for vaccines because I’ve held a newborn with fever while the doctor does a lumbar puncture. Because I’ve put a grandfather on a ventilator who couldn’t breathe and because I’ve put the final drape over a mother of 3’s face after she beat breast cancer but died of the flu. I did all of this knowing full well that it was preventable. We had the ability to save those people as a society and we failed because of the Lindseys in this world that prey on people’s poor understanding and fear.
So, who are you going to trust on this one, me or Lindsey?
XOXO- save each other- vaccinate!!
*these views are mine, not my employers
Res2 Josh, an ex-military friend of mine learned the hard way. He never really got sick his whole life but at about 45 he got the flu and then it turned into pneumonia. He was out for a whole week, and for the guy that never gets sick it was bad. I have been getting it every year for decades.
iJay Got the flu every year for at least 20 years probably longer. I had the Flu only once when I was a Much younger person. I was about 30 years old. I was deathly sick, flat on my back, sweats and more, couldn't lift my head off the pillow. But, it was not quite as bad as Stymie experienced posted above. My Daughter was 3 1/2 years old and had Pneumonia and was admitted to the hospital - St. Clares. She was there for 5 days. I could not get out of the bed to see her and I'm sure they would not have let me go into the hospital. Heck I couldn't stand up anyway. My poor husband had his hands full. My Flu injection site did swell a bit a few years ago with some soreness, but that was all. I will always get the Flu shot.
Mrs. Pipes```` When I was young, Polio was not that uncommon.
Several people in my neighborhood were afflicted.
Took the Salk vaccine on the sugar cube.
Saw chicken pox eradicated (until now).
Also had coworkers with shingles (recent).
I choose to be vaccinated.
Whatever your view, it’s probably best to be informed about the specific vaccine you’ll be getting. For reference, here’s a vaccine insert that I think is representative (I’ve only read one other one which was pretty much the same):
http://www.fffenterprises.com/assets/downloads/pi-Flu_2018-19_AFLURIA_QUADRIVALENT_Seqirus.pdf
For an overview of flu vaccine effectiveness one might start here:
https://www.cdc.gov/flu/vaccines-work/vaccineeffect.htm
justintime I'm on meds that make the fly shot mandatory. I have had it for the last 10 years. I am also requiter to get the pneumonia shot which is once every 5 years.
GC "What a gamble- lets put mild forms of bad things in our bodies- hope our body 'gets stronger' because of it- but no promise whatever strand of whatever bad thing is 'this years' version of bad things.... see you again next year!
No thank you!!"
+1
JeffersonRepub Treetops - I’m in the same boat as you are (50s and healthy) debating the same question. I have come to the conclusion to get the flu shot. My friends and family, and the folks here on the forum have made a
Point . They all describe a terrible, debilitating Flu -and ever since then - they swear by their flu.vaccine.
At this time in my life, I’m not going to take an unnecessary risk. I will get my first flu shot in my 50’s.
Htown newbie “I’m not going to take an unnecessary risk. I will get my first flu shot in my 50’s.”
So which is it?
Australia had a very bad flu season and fears are we are next:
https://www.wsj.com/articles/doctors-urge-americans-to-get-flu-shots-amid-fears-over-deadly-flu-strain-11571234256
OnTheEdge I got the Flu shot years ago and got very very sick from it. Years later I found out I'm allergic to it, so I can't get the shot. I know a number of people who swear by it and others who will not or cannot get the shot. Best advise is, you need to make the decision and do what's best for you.
Mr 4paws 
USAfirst “I’m not going to take an unnecessary risk. I will get my first flu shot in my 50’s.”
"So which is it?"
HAHAHA
Assuming my previous post was allowed to go through, the data supporting the Facebook post is in the link(s) I provided above (although more difficult to read because of its technical nature). Overall the Facebook poster is correct, however they left out one important detail: Flu vaccines are only 40%-60% effective “in the real world”.
I mention it only to counter the mildly denigrating tone that the Facebook poster has toward folks who question vaccination because even if you get the shot you can still get the flu.
Sure, you’re up to 60% less likely to get the flu but it’s that 40% chance that everyone still needs to be aware of. Fact is, the flu shot will NOT prevent you from getting the flu, but it should significantly reduce the chances...
My husband got the flu shot yesterday and is urging me to get one too, so this thread is very helpful. I'm a senior citizen and provide daycare for my very young grandchildren. I'll get the flu shot!
Chickadee Thank you all for helping me make my decision. Thinking about it I was 20 years younger the last time I got the flu. If I got the flu again I would probably not recover as quickly as I did back then. I will be getting my flu shot this coming week. Thanks again!
No guarantees it will stop the next pandemic but a good idea if you are exposed to a lot of people. If you are hermit then maybe you can skip it :)
Just wait for the flu to start causing deaths and become widespread. They’ll be lines out the door for flu shots
Iamrite Flu shot every year, pneumonia shot when suggested, just had first shingrix vaccine- one more to go - not planning on catching any of those things..................
4catmom Flu shot double date with wifey, pnu, shingles, why not. Next year it’s the double down, double strength, and viva la medicare. Either fix medicare or thanks for the fish! I was a maker, soon I will be a taker!
Grateful for the vaccine. I get it yearly. I had the flu once and will do everything possible to never have it again.
4of4Those of us who have had the true Flu know how devastating it can be, and deathly if you are Extremely unlucky.
The problem is, there are many different strains of the flu. The flu vaccine does not cover all the strains, some more deadly than others.
Vaccines can be beneficial and not so beneficial. Sort of like over doing it with the use of antibacterial and antimicrobial hygiene products. Most germs/bacteria are good and fight off the bad bacteria.
Our immune system will actually be stronger in fighting off the bad bacteria and spores by not compromising it.
An educated immune system.
I respect everyone’s choice to get the vaccine..it’s just not my choice.
Positive Oye....each to his own but when your decision affects others, that’s really not true, is it? Really hard to respect that.
Not all flu strains are covered so don’t take it. Anyone else see the lunacy in that rationale, or lack thereof?
Can vaccines be overdone like antibiotics or opioids? No. And since the unvaccinated might wrongly take antibiotics to get well, the opposite may be true.
My immune system is stronger, fights better without a vaccine. Just not true.
Are you taking the same lame risk for polio? Shingles? Pneumonia? Or is the one that you think you’ll survive that you opt to roll the dice?
It must be true though. Ever notice how no one says; I chose not to vaccinate and I caught the flu. Sort of like never losing at gambling. Yet the casinos keep getting rich.
If it was just you being affected by your poor choice, so be it. But it isn’t. I vote you skip the shingles vaccine. That won’t affect others and it’s more fun to watch that teachable, but not redo-able choice like the flu vaccine.
Weedwacker The flu will continue to be spread around regardless if everyone had the flu shot...it is more important that people wash their hands and cover their mouth and nose when they cough and sneeze
I never got my flu shot until I was a healthy 20 year old. Got the flu for a week and it knocked me on my butt. Worst aches, fever, sneezing I’ve ever experienced. Just get it. Why risk it?
Get it I got one this year. Second one in my whole life-im 37. I got the flu last year and it was awful, also I have a job in retail so I felt it was the right thing to do.
icicle How about, just an if, they had a common cold vaccine and it worked exactly as the flu shot. Then would anyone not wanting a flu shot also decline getting a common cold vaccine?
Jules I didn’t. But I do understand the concept fending off some is better than fending off none. And I trust the experts trying their darnedest to pick the best ones to fend off are better for my health than your judgement to just do nothing and magically, you will be stronger. Still waiting for proof, maybe a source, a link, for that conclusion. Feel free to use microbiology journal citations to respond.
Wouldn’t even care, freedom of choice and all, but your decision affects others, especially the older and younger amongst us. And I feel good that many more HLers seem to approve of the flu vaccine than in past years. Tis a good trend IMO.
Not sure what the avg price for the shot is but for those without coverage I see Costco is offering the shots for $19.99 this year.
Lenny Rock Positive, is your real name Lindsey? Your post contradicts itself and doesn’t mske sense.
Res2, please elaborate about being contradictory, I don’t understand what you mean.
SD, being a responsible person, if I were sick I’d stay home. I understand not everyone would do the same. Does that still make me irresponsible and selfish?
Studying Microbiology was a real wake up call for me. I learned a lot about the immune system, spores, endospores and infectious diseases.
I gave my factual information without argument, but of course one who disagrees feels the need to sarcastically belittle. Ignorance is not listening and not considering other’s thoughts, only your own thoughts matter.
Denis Staying home?
A)-you can “pay forward” the flu before you even know you have it
B)-unfortunately, some people feel the need to “suck it up” in order to pay their bills.
Pos, I apologize if my sarcasm rubs you wrong, figured after the Microbiology dig, you could take it. But it is my way, it does offend some, you are not alone, and I am sorry. Grew up in a bad environment :>)
First, I am open to your ideas, and appreciate your depth of knowledge: I was just hoping you could back it up with a citation or source. Unless it's original thought. Otherwise, how could you expect me to be open to unsourced, unsupported, opinions from a self-described expert that fly in the face of conventional medical concepts offered by leading experts?
The flu vaccine works as described; it is not perfect, but that is the nature of the ailment too. The disease morphs quickly. To quick for even super antibodies like yours to keep up. The flu vaccine is not dangerous. Going without the vaccine does not make you stronger, an evolutionary marvel or any other benefit. It is just pure dumb luck that you don't get sick and luckier yet, for the rest of us that you don't. Your good luck may be totally the result that the rest of us get the vaccine. See CDC and other sources above. Res2 has summarized.
Second, yeah, Stymie beat me to the punch. Hate to say it, but with all your microbiology background, how could you miss: "About a week. Typically, you’re contagious from 1 day before you have any symptoms. You stay that way for 5 to 7 days after you start feeling sick. Kids and people may be able to spread the virus for even longer, until all of their symptoms fade." from Web MD or the CDC, your choice.
IOW ---- you are fully contagious for at least 24 hours before you start feeling any sickness whatsoever, much less before you decide to stay home. At then a minimum of 5 to 7 days, longer for kids and the elderly before it's safe for others to have you emerge from your bunker.
Further, from the same source, it ain't just doorknobs and handshakes, washing hands is only a partial protection --- a good one -- but not 100%: "Most of the time, it’s through droplets in the air. Sick people sneeze or cough out beads of moisture that contain the flu virus. They can travel up to 6 feet. You’re exposed to the flu virus when you breathe the droplets in, or if they land in your mouth, nose, or eyes. You can also get it if you touch a place those droplets land -- like a desk, counter, or doorknob -- and then touch your face. The virus can live on hard surfaces for up to 48 hours."
"To avoid spreading, stay home a full 24-hours after the fever subsides." Yeah, sure, try that in the American workplace...... The point is: the damage is already done well before you decide to call it quits and stay home. And how often do you have a mild case and decide to muscle though while dosing how many others who may or may not develop harsher symptoms.
Again, there is no proof as to any benefit of flu vaccine abstinence. There is plenty of proof of harm, especially to those you infect.
I’m not a germiphobe, but I think a HUGE exposure for us ALL is the the trip between grabbing a shopping cart at the supermarket and rolling it to the sanitizer/wet towel dispenser inside the store.
Gotta be major contamination transfer point.
ianimal You are right, Stymie..The carts are outside at the supermarkets so you have to get your cart and then head to the sanitizer/wet towel machines, but at Walmart I head for the sanitizer machine before getting my cart as the carts are inside. I also carry hand sanitizer in the car and my purse at all times for whenever I feel it is needed...
Sanitizer/wet towel for shopping carts? And you say you're not a germiphobe? LOL
I've never used sanitizer for shopping carts or anything else. Never had the flu ever. Very rarely even get a cold. IMO too much sanitizer is not good. People need to expose themselves to some germs and bacteria in order to build up resistance.
Never said I was not a germiphobe, Calico...I probably am....You sound like my best friend who has never had so much as a bad cold that she can recall let alone the flu. You are the lucky ones and good for you...Keep up the good work!!
From what I read, you are correct and previous flu infections will inoculate you against this strain in the future. That's probably good for a year or two..... While you do build a resistance up to the virus in question, there's hundreds of cold viruses, one version alone has 54 types... And they are changing all the time. So, sure, once you catch it, you be immune to that strain, but there's a lot of strains out there you have not seen....yet and a lot of new ones yet to be created that your immunity will do didley (microbiology term :>). Same with bacterial infections.
Along with specific antibodies, there's a whole litany of things helping and hurting the ole immune system: stress, sleep, exercise, eating your fruits n veges, hydration, smoking, and frequent sex. At least that's what I tell the wife :>)
And you get an early inheritance. Maybe your mother was widely exposed and from the womb she gave you the gift of immunity from whatever she was safe from. So if you don't catch colds, I guess your Momma is a sickee…. (just kidding, really).
Even with that, and it's all good, flu vaccines introduces specific flu's, hopefully this year's strains, aiding the body in creating antibodies via a "memory" of the infection. Because the virus morphs into new strains, we need a new shot every year. Something tells me your concept of previous infections making you strong is true, to a point, but does not keep track with the changes. Chances are the other things affecting your immune system and in pretty darned good shape to and that it is all of this combined, plus your Mother's gift, that's protecting you.
It is no reason NOT to get the flu shot.
PS: so young Moms --- put those pacifiers in thy mouth while changing jr; it's not gross, it will make him stronger and more immune to what sickened you over the years. You can take all those colds and pay them forward!
http://theconversation.com/a-strong-immune-system-helps-ward-off-colds-and-flus-but-its-not-the-only-factor-99512
"Are the say no to flu shots anti-vaccine people?"
At least to this degree, they are.
Monty A friend of mine used antimicrobial and antibacterial wipes on everything. Her kids were sick very often.
I never used that stuff and my kid rarely got sick. Don’t kill the good bacteria that fights off the bad.
Between every Tom, Dick and Harriet ( being fair) pushing those shopping carts around and baby’s soiled diaper in the seat- I would surmise that touching a shopping cart in a supermarket is at least the equivalent of grabbing a NYC subway turnstile.
But, hey, do what works for you.
Do I ever catch s bug?
Yes.
Do I try to minimize it?
Again, yes.
I used to joke with my Doctor that any ding that came my way could be fought with more steamed broccoli and veggies.
No longer the case.
An adult not wanting a flu vacine for themselves has nothing to do with anyone believing in measle vaccines.
maja2 You are putting people you don't know in to one bucket. I would guess mist people on here who won't get a flu shot believe in vaccines in general. Don't believe me, ask them, don't assume.
Positive, you confused me with a couple of things you said combined with your anti-flu vaccine position.
You said that there are many different strains of the flu. You are correct. Scientists make the best prediction they can. They have to make the flu vaccine long before the flu season begins. It’s an educated estimate, but still much better than nothing.
You say that vaccines can be beneficial and not beneficial. That is simply not true. They have been proven over and over and over again to reduce the spread of influenza illness, and reduce the level of sickness for those that get it. Flu vaccines are not, I repeat not, ”sorta like the overuse of antimocrobials”. Vaccines simply do not work that way. I do agree with you that the overuse of antibiotics have resulted in the outbreak of antibiotic resistant bacteria. That is a problem, but it has nothing to do with the flu vaccine.
You said that our immune system‘s will be stronger in fighting off bad bacteria and spores by not compromising it. Vaccines do not compromise your immune system. Vaccines introduce a non-reproducing form of the virus. Your body responds with a healthy immune system response and prepares antibodies to kill the virus. Again vaccines have nothing to do with good or bad bacteria at all.
You then said something about an educated immune system, I think, implying that an exercised immune system is good. I agree. Again, that’s exactly what a vaccine does.
I responded to you in particular, because the ignorance and myths about vaccines is a serious problem. The science is out there, it’s time we embraced it.
Actually what they do have in common is the underlying body of knowledge and expert study and conclusions as to their efficacy and safety.
As I started, those not wanting to use them have personal experiences, anecdotal urban legends, and out n out conspiracy theories.
I am heartened that more people on HL are not only pro, but are “Bwhaaaat, of course yes,” and that there are less or no conspiracists this year. Small steps Allie, small steps.....
I admit I do some things that are scientifically unsound, one pretty bad, but I feel I might die if I do otherwise so I shouldn’t point fingers accusingly. But I readily admit I am being crazy and my choice does not put others at risk. That I could buy.
Ok flu fans or fluffans, answer me this; when we catch the flu, we are immune to that strain for life. At least that’s my read. If we are being injected with flu memories which make us immune to that flu strain without getting sick;
1. are we immune to that strain for life?
2. If that dose makes us immune why do 65-yr olds need a double dose?
Strangerdanger, each year the flu vaccine contains the strains of flu that are likely to be circulating. Flu viruses change over time so as you gain immunity to one strain, a new strain is developing.
Same reason there is no common cold vaccine. Viruses modulate their shield frequencies so fast that phasers and photon torpedoes cannot penetrate them consistently. :)
I remember a few years ago the CDC even said that that years' flu vaccine wasn't even the strain that was going around, because they hadn't had time to formulate a new one for the most current strain. The whole idea sounds like chasing your tail, to me.
It's like tick products for dogs: none of them guarantee that your dog will not get a tick on them, or that your dog will not bring that tick into the house, and here's the biggie- none of them guarantee that your dog will not get lyme disease (or other tick-borned virus). So tell me again why do people put pesticides on their dogs? For no actual reasons other than clever marketing and a false sense of security.
The flu "vaccine" is NOT like the polio vaccine and many others. Because, for whatever reason, the flu virus (and the cold virus) are also, apparently, not like the polio virus. Vaccines certainly work, no one is arguing that. But the FLU vaccine has dubious evidence at best supporting it. Call me crazy, but I'd rather not put something into my body based on dubious evidence. It probably does help some people not get the flu. It also DOESN'T help some people not get the flu. It's not a "vaccine" in the same league as the MMR et al, they can't be compared.
If the flu vaccine ever reaches the success level (near 100%) of the real vaccines (MMR, etc), I would consider getting one. I'm not interested in trying experimental treatments (which this vaccine IS, still) unless my life is in danger.... and for some people of advanced age and/or compromised immune systems, perhaps the flu vaccine is a swell idea. But not for everyone. And stop with the "if I get sick it's your fault!" mantra, it's called LIFE. Not everything can be traced back to BLAME someone- that's unfortunately the new political zeitgeist these days. Sometimes, crap actually DOES just "happen."
I don't ridicule people for getting something I believe to be dubious. People who decide to get it shouldn't ridicule others for not getting it because they don't believe it to be necessary. The constant confirmation bias and self-congratulations (on being "smarter than everyone else) needs to stop. But it won't.
And yes, I take all this stuff seriously- I have chronic lyme disease, and one of my good friend's uncle just passed away from powassan virus. (only 113 cases reported since it was discovered- it's a new one). There is no known treatment, let alone cure. You either live or your die. And if you live, you may have suffered enough brain damage that you wish you hadn't.
The flu kills (some) people. It sucks. Alot of things kill (some) people. It always sucks. A flu cure would be great. WHEN they actually develop one. Now if we could just find a cure for drunk driving, mental illness, texting while driving, cancer, etc etc etc..... that'd be great.
Not smoking doesn’t insure that you won’t get cancer- but it’s a smart move.
Getting vaccinated doesn’t insure that you won’t get the flu- but it’s also a smart move.
( and it may also protect those around you)
Why is the ever mounting evidence dubious? There is nothing experimental about the flu vaccine. And there are very few 100%’s in this world. And yes, your choice increases the risk for others. That’s just the reality of math. But why is the evidence of the flu vaccine’s efficacy dubious? Just because it’s not perfect and you feel put upon by those who conclude it’s better to take than not? Like the vast majority of medical experts? What does your Doctor think?
As far as crazy, stupid, put upon, etc. No, it’s not you. But, in this case, without a shred of hard evidence in support if your idead, and decades of research countermanding your ideas, your actions are dubious, at best.
Its obvious the virus morphs and the strains we use are an educated guess taken with enough time to produce product. That’s a difference tween this vaccine and others; the short morph interval. That’s not dubious, that’s science. And that’s one reason no cold vaccine; even faster morph more time that you cannot guess, get in front of, and produce enough product fast enough to stay in front off. Plus, it’s not as dangerous
Res2: I understand what you said but my questions is does the flu vaccine protect against those strains for life? Because if you catch the flu and build an immunity; that IS for life. Just wonder if the vaccine works the same way.
Plus, if it does work like that, why a double dose fir seniors?
SD - In scientific terms "morph" is "mutate". That's exactly the nature of a virus. One thing you asked was about life time immunity which is essential true if you've actually had a particular strain. It's because enough anti-bodies have built up because of the direct exposure. But as you're indicating the viruses are always mutating and you get a new strain quite often. All of the old built up anti-bodies will no longer be effective if the virus mutates enough. Immunologists have found it mutates like that quite often.
The build up of antibodies also answers your question about the double dose. Because seniors have a lower immune response, there needs to be more so your body will produce enough antibodies by the time we're in flu season and the risk of exposure is the greatest. It's also the reason why people like me with certain medications need to get the shot earlier than others. My body takes longer to build up the antibodies, so I need more time to become immune.
I am a strong advocate for the flu immunization. If you're not concerned for
yourself think of others you might infect, unknowingly There are the elderly , young and people you come in contact with who have autoimmune deficiency, those who are on chemo, undergoing radiation. My aunt is 88 and has COPD, and Stage 4 kidney disease, she would not do well if she was ill with the flu. I had worked with many seriously compromised children who are at higher risk of getting seriously ill if they had the flu. My aunt gets a higher dose of the flu vaccine due to her age and other health concerns. Think of others not just yourself.
SusanC "Why is the ever mounting evidence dubious? There is nothing experimental about the flu vaccine."
It doesn't work ALL the time. It's a "maybe". I'd call that experimental. At the very least "not ready for prime time". Dubious. Does the MMR work all the time? Polio vaccine?
Get it. Don't ridicule those who don't. If I wanted to be able to make people do things to protect ME, I'd have to ban all socialists/communists/progressives from voting, since their actions directly affect me.
No vaccine is 100% effective. That's a impossibility.
https://www.who.int/vaccine_safety/initiative/detection/immunization_misconceptions/en/index2.html
Well I know one thing that is 100% certain. You can’t argue with ignorance. If someone doesn’t want to understand something, they’re not going to.
Ignorant might be a bit strong.
According to the statistics, according to the science, considering the low cost, minimal effort, when you look at how long we’ve been doing it, how many people have been safely inoculated.....I would not say it’s a smart decision to pass on the inoculation But the real troubling part is not the risk these folks take for themselves but the risk they add to others. Think about how many people you encounter in 24-hours. And it goes exponentially from there. It seems a selfish choice.
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"But the real troubling part is not the risk these folks take for themselves but the risk they add to others. Think about how many people you encounter in 24-hours. And it goes exponentially from there. It seems a selfish choice. "
Once again, comparing the flu shot to real vaccines at this point is a non-sequitor; the flu does not kill most people...
"Numbers of flu-related deaths are controversial because they are simply estimates. These numbers do not necessarily match up with what’s reported on death certificates or by official agencies responsible for collecting vital statistics.
For instance, the National Vital Statistics System reported fewer than 500 flu-related deaths in 2010—that’s a lot less than the thousands of deaths estimated by the CDC. Meanwhile Wikipedia reports an even larger number of flu-related deaths “about 250,000 to 500,000.”
Wikipedia’s numbers can cause you to panic at the first sign of the flu. In reality, the flu is not a major killer. Reputable publications such as the American Journal of Public Health and the British Medical Journal report much lower numbers than Wikipedia and even the CDC.
So how do discrepancies occur? For one, without lab tests it’s impossible to differentiate the real flu from more serious germs with flu-like symptoms. In 2001, 257 American death certificates listed the flu as cause of death. Albeit, only 18 of these 257 people were positively confirmed as having a true flu, while the remaining 239 were simply assumed to have died from the flu. While a good percentage of these people did likely have the flu, there’s no way to know for sure how many."
So, "forgive" some of us who would rather let our immune systems do what they were designed to do, instead of getting a marginal vaccine that MIGHT keep us from getting the flu IF we were even going to get it in the first place. If I were very old or had a compromised immune system, perhaps I would consider the risk worth it. I am not and do not.
Don't want to get the flu this winter? Don't go to shoprite. Don't want to accidentally shoot yourself? Don't own a gun. Don't want to see Trump be re-elected? Don't turn the TV on Nov. 3, 2020.
How about this: YOU do YOU, and WE will do US, mmm-kay? The arrogance of those who think they "know better" FOR OTHERS never ceases to piss me off. GET OFF MY LAWN.
This article is from 2016, using data back to 2006. Interesting read for those who are actually interested in looking at the whole/real picture, and not simply succumbing to the "better safe than sorry" fear mentality:
https://vaccineimpact.com/2016/cdc-admits-flu-shots-fail-half-the-time/
"But the real troubling part is not the risk these folks take for themselves but the risk they add to others. Think about how many people you encounter in 24-hours. And it goes exponentially from there. It seems a selfish choice. "
Practically all people I know who get flu shot because (1) they are required to get it or (2) get medical insurance premium discount get sick with flu during the season and they pass it to other people because they continue to come to work or school/child care while sick. I remember when my physicians old office had an area for sick people, now everyone waits in the same waiting room with no divider.
Lena I am not required to get it. Just feel it’s better to have it on board than not.
Lena, I have no idea what you mean about the 2nd point in your post.
Took a second to see that you are serious… Bottom line is do what you will, there is no mandate. Your arguments are specious, it boils down to what you feel, what you believe. The facts are not on your side. IMO, the only issue here is potential effect to others and, as you note, that is a minimal risk.
….comparing the flu shot to real vaccines at this point is a non-sequitur (sic); the flu does not kill most people..” Are you concluding that the flu shot is not a real vaccine because it does not have 100% efficacy? That most people must die for it to be real? That’s ridiculous as shown above by a number of folks. The flu vaccine is a real vaccine.
"Numbers of flu-related deaths are controversial because they are simply estimates.” Using a single year, as you have, is misleading. Flu varies widely by year. Agreed, there are many estimates, variables, definitions, flu, flu-related, w/wo pneumonia, you name it. Very confusing. It will be a low number in the scheme of things yet a top ten killer in the US, but not in the top 5. But for $40 or less, I pay $0, what is the downside?
What is your downside? Why is the bad effect of using?
“These numbers do not necessarily match up with what’s reported on death certificates or by official agencies responsible for collecting vital statistics.” Actually they do. CDC is linked to NCVS to official agencies and vice-versa. it's all the variables, etc. as noted that cause differences. Your source, NCVS, claims flu is the 8th top cause of death in 2017. Better than Diabetes, worse than liver disease.
NCVS states 55,000 flu and pneumonia deaths in 2017, a 6% rise over 2016. https://www.cdc.gov/nchs/data/nvsr/nvsr68/nvsr68_09-508.pdf Here’s a backgrounder explaining. I can’t find a NCVS stat for 500 dead,” would love to see the source.
Your only citation is from the National Vaccine Information Center, is a slicker sounding name than the original moniker, Dissatisfied Parents Together. DPT/NVIC is thoroughly debunked for misleading information and fearmongering. How they keep getting money all these years is really the amazing part.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/National_Vaccine_Information_Center
Looking at hundreds of media outlets, I have never seen one like this:
https://mediabiasfactcheck.com/national-vaccine-information-center-nvic/
It’s “quackery” according to these sources, and I can get more……
“Interesting read for those who are actually interested in looking at the whole/real picture, and not simply succumbing to the "better safe than sorry" fear mentality.” In your real picture, the whole enchilada, you missed looking up the authors and their less than stellar reputation….
Then, I think, you get to your real reason: "forgive" some of us who would rather let our immune systems do what they were designed to do, instead of getting a marginal vaccine that MIGHT keep us from getting the flu IF we were even going to get it in the first place.” There is NOTHING in the flu shot that STOPS your immune system from working as designed. Does not change your immune system. Does not weaken your immune system. This argument seems bogus. The fact it is not 100% is a fact of life, of the disease, and your response to it.
I agree, chances are nothing will happen based on your inaction. You are not benefitting your bodies immune system one iota. Quite the opposite, you are avoiding adding immunities. Your inaction puts the rest of us at higher risk, albeit minor, but higher. That's just math. You are more susceptible, if you get hit you will infect others, and there is NO DOWNSIDE in getting the vaccine unless you can’t stomach the <$40 and 15 minutes of your time.
I think we are done, others have pretty much spelled out the advantages and the lack of risk or downside in using this less-than-perfect, but better than without REAL vaccine.
Cute analogy, but this seems to be a very serious outbreak.
I don’t know the exact numbers by my impression by reading about this daily is that the number of cases is scaling exponentially. Scary stuff.
Iamrite
That was funny as anything, even while I guzzle electrolyte solution because the flu strain my brother carried up from SC and that a friend's grandson was hospitalized for in Nevada is apparently not in the broad spectrum flu shot I received in Oct. It's a crapshoot as far as what the predominant strains will be. 36-48 hours seems to be the incubation time. This one starts with coughing and gas, fever, joint pain chills, the whole nine yards. Then the diarrhea starts, just when your fever has broken and THAT is the dangerous part.
Dehydration and electrolyte loss can be life threatening. I was already feeling not too bad this am (my symptoms started suddenly Tuesday morning) so I went into work, but stayed away from everyone. Only made it 3 hours before I thought I'd collapse. I picked up electrolyte solution on the way home, which is only 5 min. from work, thank goodness. I feel like I got run over by the two box trucks that were dragracing past the East Ave. light around 10:35. They were side by side haulin' it and were apparently having some kind of road rage thing going on or a pi$$ing contest. Not funny there folks!
Phil D. Phil, the efficacy rates of vaccines seem to vary wildly; I’ve seen some as low as 40% and some as high as 80%.
Sounds like you fell on the wrong side of the curve this year...
You can see the methodology as to strain selections. It is seriously NOT a crapshoot but how could they tell you would meet with an out-of-state alien and protect against the billions of unique SC strains. Who would ever think you would risk that encounter with the diseased.
Seriously, the selection methodology is sound, but not perfect by design. Want perfection? Roll up those sleeves and we’ll pump you with 10 times the strains for 2% greater coverage at ten times the cost.
Usually you get a muted case when outside the strain-selection. Yours was an unfortunate outlier, but do you think you took it full bore or got at least a bit of a break?
Feel better, electrolytes are the best.
justintime
Indeed I did. The good news for me is that I got past that earlier stage fairly quickly. My younger brother, who I don't think ever gets a flu shot, is still in relative agony and he's had it 2 or so days longer than I.
Strangerdanger
I realize they use the best methodology they have available, but in the end it's still a crapshoot as to how close they'll be. Strains mutate all the time. That said, I've been getting flu shots for the last 10+ years, since I was already in more than one risk group.
As I mentioned above, I think it definitely lessened the severity of what I've had to deal with. Only two days of agonizing bedrest. Nothing like being so knackered (as my Canadian friend used to say) that after pouring some juice in a mug I picked it up only to spill some on the counter, on the floor...cleanup in the Phil D. kitchen. I was thinking "where the heck's a sippy cup when you most need one";-)
I almost feel normal, but it took an Immodium to stop liquids from running out the wrong way. They're going out the correct way now, but puzzlingly enough, the Electrolyte almost pours right through. Could be a symptom of this particular strain. All in all, I'm glad I got the shot this year and my 1 1/2 year old heart valve is probably thanking me too.
Yeah, how dare those former New Jersey relatives come back to haunt us! Actually, it's always good to see family, even though they mostly relocated down there, and are happier for it. I just try not to let a political discussion start.
Phil; maybe some ginger ale, shaken not stirred, to get rid of bubbles as an alternative. Real ginger, no sugar. English not so dumb. Plus, power aid, sugar free, can give a boost. Used to have magic powder for overseas travel; stuff was incredible but can’t find it.
No, I think it’s better than a crapshoot although I can understand your vantage point right now. As I said, the methodologies are there, I believe they compute effectiveness, and to get a few points more effective; I don’t think any of us was say it’s worth the cost. Except maybe you, right now, like a puking drunk giving up the previous evening’s alcohol choice.
Best luck, get some rest.
Phil D- always healthy and escaped flu scot free UNTIL about 10 years ago .
Got pulled through the grinder just like you’re going through now.
Became a “convert” and now get my shots when indicated.
Feel bad for you - was the sickest I ever was that time.
When I could finally keep something down ( after 4 days?) tea with honey-then graduated to cup-of-soups.
Lost about 12 lbs though- the hard way.
Hang in.
Unless you have a valid medical reason not to get a flu shot. Get one!!! Look into a pneumonia shot as well.
Jono And don't forget the Shingles. Never forget those Shingles...….
And quit tracking mud across my clean kitchen floor.
I'm wondering if all of those who resist the flu vaccine are giving their animals proper medical care - e.g., vaccines?
rleaf Here’s a weird concept: freedom of choice.
Every day all of us take calculated risks in life. Want to drive to work? Doing so exposes you to a 1:6700 chance of dying. Like to canoe? 1:10,000.
If you get the flu the chances are much higher of course, but the same logic applies. Know the odds, make a choice. Freedom. What a completely novel concept in this modern age.
friendly mcface But did you question your freedom of choice in making that selection.
Because that's the important part.
Google:
The Highwire with Del Bigtree and go to his facebook. Watch the video about corona and vaccines.
It's long but you can start at the 50.00 time mark.
It will be an eye opener for some of you.
well well well..... here's a compelling reason NOT to get the flu shot....
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/31607599/
"Receipt of influenza vaccination was not associated with virus interference among our population. " This means that it is not statistically significant. Sounds like you will be skipping the COVID-19 vaccine later this year (if we are lucky) too?
Excellent article JR. Vaccines can compromise vital antibodies and leukocytes needed in fighting future viruses. Kind of like chemo n radiation. Which kills the cancer cells, but Kill the good cells as well..
We need exercise to become stronger, the immune system needs the same.
Good thing I’m not in DOD, no worries.
Interesting yes. Compelling? Only if you were leaning that way anyway. And you were, weren’t you.... It’s one study.
funny iJay.... let's continue the quote, shall we?
'Vaccine derived virus interference was significantly associated with coronavirus and human metapneumovirus'
I hope this thread doesn’t get shut down like so many others.
There’s nothing wrong with having an intellectual discussion, whether some people may get offended or not.
By suppressing people’s concerns and anxiety...trying to shut them up will only make it much worse.
Everything needs to be in balance. You might be ok not ever getting the flu shot you might not. Strong immune systems are good but not too good as that is what killed the primarily 18-25 year olds during the Spanish Flu when their immune systems turned on them and often killed in 12 hours. Like previously mentioned, the Native American Indians were wiped out, 90% plus died due to diseases from Europe. Yes some survived but most didn't. These were quite strong and healthy people. Just take a walk around places like Walmart, many won't stand a chance...
Think coronavirus covers the waterfront of all of them and who knows on convid-19. Probably.
But one study does not a consensus make. Whereas the flu shot has a consensus.....for now.
Let's go with the full quote:
"CONCLUSIONS:
Receipt of influenza vaccination was not associated with virus interference among our population. Examining virus interference by specific respiratory viruses showed mixed results. Vaccine derived virus interference was significantly associated with coronavirus and human metapneumovirus; however, significant protection with vaccination was associated not only with most influenza viruses, but also parainfluenza, RSV, and non-influenza virus coinfections."
Here's the link to the actual study itself and their conclusions that it's better in general to have the flu shot. They state in their conclusions at the end that Further research is needed:
https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S0264410X19313647?via%3Dihub
"The overall results of the study showed little to no evidence supporting the association of virus interference and influenza vaccination. Individual respiratory virus results were mixed, and some rebutted virus interference. Additionally those receiving the influenza vaccine were more likely to have no pathogen detected and reduced risk of influenza when compared to unvaccinated individuals. Further research is necessary to help character virus interference and validate or refute the validity of the test-negative design for influenza vaccine effectiveness."
While it's a VERY unfortunate coincidence that "Vaccine derived virus interference was significantly associated with coronavirus and human metapneumovirus", BUT, as you can see above the study showed that in general the flu vaccine actually can help protect against a number of other viruses as well.
Wow Phil, ty, I can finally understand :-). Also ty for the hang time thingee which, to me, said “ possible but not probable.” Good sleuthing and plain speak.
These threads get shut down for one reason. They become political. Just keep politics out of it.
Metsman "While it's a VERY unfortunate coincidence that "Vaccine derived virus interference was significantly associated with coronavirus and human metapneumovirus", BUT, as you can see above the study showed that in general the flu vaccine actually can help protect against a number of other viruses as well."
Very unfortunate, yes. Coincidence isn't the right word tho... sounds more like cause and effect to me. If I were in the "danger" group for corona, I'd be worried MORE if I had gotten the flu shot.
I never get the flu shot, the subject of why has been clearly discussed in this thread, lol.
"Cause and effect"
Did I read this correctly? The study says they took a whole population of people with viral infections and one without, and then looked at whether they had a flu shot or not. I went into the full report, not just that summary to make sure. It actually goes into depth about just how many exclusions of the total population of infected people they used.
I am no epidemiologist but do have a math science degree. Isn't that inference of the converse? If you want to prove cause and effect (ie a logical interence) it requires the contrapositive, not the converse. You would need to start with two populations of flu shot and not flu shot first. Then look at whether they had multiple viral infections or not.
In other words, when they asked the virus infected people whether they had a flu shot or not, they could just as well have asked them whether they smoked or not, if they had COPD, or if they drink milk. Yes, after checking if they drink milk and 90% said yes, is this then a cause and effect between viral infections and milk??? That's the Fallacy of Inferring the Converse.
Besides the exclusion method, the other surprise in the full report is there were six other similar studies referenced. They didn't find a correlation either. Even this study said some evidence actually "rebutted virus interference".
The fact of the matter is unless you’re in DoD, not relevant. We all know they are “special.”
Kiddin of course.....or am I?
You need to be very clear on this. Without vaccines mankind will probably survive but many more will die. Don't keep thinking you will be on the surviving side all the time. Vaccines don't guarantee anything, but greatly improve the odds. How many of us had the measles vaccine? After 1965 it was quite effective. You don't want to get the measles, it makes COVID-19 look like the common cold.
Have had the flu shot for - hmmm - at least 40 years - haven't had the flu for at least 40 years..............then there's the shingrix and pneumonia vaccines - so far so good - hoping, as an"elderly" -to avoid the coronavirus -- out walking a few miles every nice day - though we will miss Riverfront Park -
"Cal- did you get the Polio vaccine?"
My parents got me whatever vaccines were recommended when I was a kid. I would imagine that included Polio.
Know what?
I’m a very good driver.
But every time I get in my car, I fasten my seat belt;
because I never know whose driving around me or what may happen.
May never suffer a ding.
May someday save my life.
I’m wondering how may of the anti vac cohort will pass on the coronavirus vaccine- if/when available.
Good to imagine, cough, cough, nudge, nudge...… Smallpox vaccine left the famous mark. Actually claimed this as "extinct" at some point only re-administering to health workers after a terrorist scare.
JR's point is not that he is anti-vaccine, but that he is anti-less-than-100%-cure vaccines. As to his rationale, not gonna get me to repeat that tin foil hat stuff. Yeah, check the science, just because not 100% effective does not mean you're better off without it. Science says NO.
And the points about "building antibodies 12 ways....." is bogus too in that any immunity you build up by catching the flu has a limited shelf life so maybe you get the next year......but not much more. It's urban legend.
And, and the flu shot does exactly what JR is claiming can be done the hard way. Instead of catching the flu, the flu shot basically gives you the immunity without the pain of catching the flu. That's why the effective rate is low: it catches some, misses others, the games moves too fast to catch them all.
What it does say is that effectiveness, because it's not 100% BY DEFINITION, varies by year and this year: 40-45%. That's pretty good by flu vaccine metrics. Here's it is, by year, along with some more fodder for JR and company.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Influenza_vaccine
Hey...….if this stuff was easy, none of us would ever catch a cold...….
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