Huge warehouse project in White township
A large section of farms and wooded areas in Warren County may be developed into warehouses and manufacturing plants. David Jaindl, representing Jaindl Land Co., presented informal plans Tuesday for the 585 acres to the White Township Planning Com...
Waste let’s fill all these empty office parks on bibly and in the trade zone first we don’t need more empty buildings wasting away look at the base building it’s going on 16 years of being empty!
I wish they'd stop building new stuff, paving over our green stuff, tearing down trees, until ALL the empty stuff is being used again. I know we need places for people to work, but as Drew pointed out, there are warehouses and office complexes sitting empty all over this area. Doesn't make any sense to me to keep building more places.
Just saw a sign for this on a backroad in independence. It was on someone’s front lawn and simply read “NO WAREHOUSES.” I was intrigued so I googled it and found this thread. I, for one, am against this with so many empty commercial properties around and the fact that when they DO build, they leave acres of dirt and unfinished landscape. Bilby road in from of Hackettstown Medical Arts is a good example as well as behind CVS. Are the planning boards so impotent that they can’t force site clean-up after a project?
If anyone is interested in following along, there is a very active Facebook group dedicated to this particular issue. It's called Citizens for Sustainable Development.
Planning Board met last night. They are revisiting the Master plan for the entire township. One of the proposals is to rezone the area where the warehouses are proposed from Industrial to Residential. The applicants lawyer was there and was as expected adversarial, hanging on the ability to OPRA draft documents (not actually legal) and averring that the public should not be allowed to comment unless the documents were public., But the board listened to the public and in general the comments were in favor of the rezone. No vote was taken, as this was just a preliminary discussion, but looks like there is pretty solid grass roots support to stop the 6-8 Million square foot warehouse construction. (The possible 15-20,000 trucks a day on 512 and 517 was a pretty big factor, with busy hour traffic of between 48-149 trucks a minute on the little one lane road making folks actually gasp in the audience.)
48-149 trucks a minute , I am not sure you can unload trucks that fast but it would sure employ a lot of people to pull off such a monumental task good for the local economy ?
"One of the proposals is to rezone the area where the warehouses are proposed from Industrial to Residential. "
Probably the whole idea after all. Scare the residents with the "149 trucks a minute," then turn it residential which was the whole plan from the beginning.
"149 trucks a minute"
Let’s do some math…
Average 18-wheeler length is ~75 feet.
At 35MPH, trucks move 3,080 feet/minute or 51 feet/second.
It takes a 75-foot-long truck 1.5 seconds to pass any fixed point.
Even if trucks were literally hitched *nose to tail*, the theoretical max amount that could be driving down a single road is 40 trucks per minute (in each direction). If we assume both directions are packed solid, that’s 80 trucks per minute as an absolute physical max.
If the road is 45 MPH the max change to 53 trucks per minute in each direction (106 trucks total in both directions).
On the flip side, as trucks slow down to pull into a lot and park (or the speed limit is lower) there is likely no reasonable way to handle that volume of traffic.
Maybe they meant 149 trucks per hour?
It's kind of silly to say use the empty office buildings before building new buildings. I mean in theory, it's nice pie in the sky dreaming but in practicality you can't force people or companies to use existing buildings because it's the green thing to do or you want them to. Maybe those buildings would charge too much rent or aren't in good shape any more. Maybe they want something modern in look or utility. So many possibilities and if that group wants something new, I would expect that their solution would be to find somewhere else to build rather than rent in buildings that they don't want. More builders and afterwards more employees working would add to property tax and purchases from local stores and restaurants.
I have no horse in this race, this is the first I have seen of this, something to think about
In response to Mark, the traffic study had peak hour traffic up to 9000 per hour range. (Don't have my notes but did the math at the meeting.) For one of the specific uses (Cross warehousing maybe) the other uses had lower ranges but they all were in excess of 3000 per hour (Peak traffic). Keep in mind that using a daily number benefits the applicant, but truck traffic is not laminar, peak hour is where the proverbial rubber hits the road.
That being said they also said that 512 and 519 would need to be made into a 4 lane road to handle the traffic, and traffic lights would be needed at all the intersections. Which means they would provide more capacity than either route 46 or 57 or 78. In other words the size of the development is way larger than the existing infrastructure, which makes the proposal even more inappropriate.
Actually..they could build a bridge across the river and link up with 33
Also I'm sure those against this development(including myself) have thought about any endangered species that may potentially nest on the proposed land or any potential unrecognized wetland areas on the property? It is close to the Delaware River after all. This will usually stop a proposed development in it's tracks.
Up in Sussex County a new Wawa was slated to go in on the site of the old Chatterbox drive in restaurant. Apparently some wetlands issue was discovered and now the new Wawa is a no go at that location.
And I love this talk about NEW jobs for the local White Twp economy if the new warehouses go in. BULL!
Automation is taking over (Right Amazon?). Within 10 years from now humans won't be needed, a machine will do it just fine for practically free in this sector.
Humans still are needed to purchase products....
There is a Norfolk Southern railroad line near Belvidere NJ that will see some use to handle freight from this new development.
Given the distance and the highway infrastructure, or lack thereof, this seems to be a foolhardy business development.
Given it's the second largest building in the entire Lehigh Valley, the largest houses QVC and HSN, what's to attract companies like that to come to White? Seems foolhardy unless you have Amazon in the bag.....
There is little infrastructure to support the project: roads, restaurants, housing accommodations, there's very little there to support the comings and goings of a development of that size and scope. But they will follow.
Given the business plan, and the opportunity, it seems IMO that Jaindl is bargaining for something less so that White will feel victory if this behemoth of a warehouse distribution center is smaller. Just my guess that he will magically come up with a smaller plan to assuage the emotions stirring now. His is a family business, he can afford to plan decades out in the future given that Sonny Joe or Cousin It will be there to see the dream come true.
Unfortunately, Jaindl has zoning in his favor yet White has a Master Plan review in process and timewise, needed. Should be a fun time. Hopefully the State can support a reasonable outcome given their Master Plan. For citizens desiring to participate in the Master Plan revisions, the State Planners can be found here: https://nj.gov/state/planning/state-plan.shtml
Jaindl seems like the real deal in a weird way. He develops all sorts of stuff from turkey farms to spas to residential to..... warehouses. He just bought Nazareth Speedway. I smell lawyers, guns, and money. He seems to develop many different things in many different places. He also seems to care. Much of his stuff seems good. Here's his stuff: https://jaindl.com/ and https://jaindl.com/about/
Not that he is without conflict, but even that seems to be about "the good fight." Most of his battles seem to be about access --- storm water runoff, highway infrastructure improvement avoidance, and the like. In other words, he has a crack team with much experience at overcoming infrastructure improvements like roads, water, and the like. Not necessarily that he is in the wrong on this, but it's the major foul rift (sorry for the bad pun) in a number of his developments including this one --- big time. Sure seems better than many a developer that H-town and surrounds garner. At least he's a real person with a fixed address :>( Here's a few developments and conflicts (there was much more but HL URL constraints):
Good luck on this one folks. Beyond the law being the law, this guy certainly knows what he is doing, has done a lot, and if he lowers his ambition here, bear in mind that was the plan, IMO. And then the larger plan will come to fruition in the future. If you get the camel's head into the tent, the body will follow.
What railroad did Warren Buffett buy?
Burlington Northern Santa Fe
Warren Buffett's Berkshire Hathaway (NYSE: BRK-B) bought Burlington Northern Santa Fe for $26.5 billion back in 2010. It was his biggest acquisition ever. Since then, Buffett's railroad stock investment is paying off nicely.
Buffett does not own NS.
If this warehouse is part of Murphy's big Medical Dispensary plan, who's really complaining?...after a couple of tokes? (lol...but possible)
@Lonesome Dove re: "I wish they'd stop building new stuff, paving over our green stuff" --- Don't worry, the Cannabis is 'good green' being paved over the 'bad green'
Let's Give It a Chance -- Peace & Out ;>}
hmmm, he is a farmer.....
the property is protected on one side by the river.....
there's a lot of indoor agro out there.....
the Mackey's are a little spacey already.... (just kidding)
it's as remote as you get in NJ....
I think you may be onto something.
pops in hello meeting the public now I just bought a very large track of land 1800 acers some nice farm land going to raise chickens lots of them pigs beef cows milk cows corn so I can feed them hay some horses for fun going to have to build storage buildings lots of traffic for the out going meat products wow egg layers where can I dig some big pits to put all the dung these two fields will be great for solar electric checks the weather and wind pattern for area going to stink up the area down wind
whats this signs no mega farms action group but it
s my land I bought it u don't care thanks
my question is no matter what the land is used for there will be a bunch of people up in arms over it
may be people should look at it that it is done right and not half ass and that in ten years they do not become empty wear housing
the land was owned by the power compay may be some more white towers would go good just see that it is done right
have fun fight nicely
The new Wawa at the Chatterbox is being held up by NJ DOT review. Has nothing to do with wetlands. Just typical NJ bureaucracy.
Please consider donating to Citizens for Sustainable Development. It is money that will go toward hiring a legal representation to defend against building the monstrous warehouses/structures that are going to pollute and contribute to the degradation of the Delaware, Huge increases in truck and car traffic all along Rt 519, 46, 57, and cause unpredictable safety issues for families, schools, and churches in Warren County. Go to www.savewarrencounty.org and find the DONATE button at the top. Follow the link to donate online and instructions closely, if paying by check, put CFSD in the memo of any check. THANK-YOU FOR YOUR GENEROSITY!
This is a WARREN COUNTY problem and will affect county taxes.
Keep rural Warren County rural!!!
For more and the most up to date information about this please visit the "Citizens For Sustainable Development" Facebook page
The latest on the warehouse project.
Nothing like the developer and his scum bag attorney to threaten the township
Such a disgrace if this goes through either way......a giant warehouse was built in Lopatcong recently at around 1 million square ft...this warehouse in Lopatcong is just one of 6 they have planned to be built in that area off Rt.22.......is it really necessary to build another massive warehouse within 10 or so miles in White township?! Going to be a nightmare of tractor trailers ripping through, traffic, noise, accidents and so on.....kiss that peaceful quiet country life good bye.
There is about 4 million sq ft total on the old Ingersoll Rand property in P'burg and Lopatcong and an additional 500,000 square feet on Strykers Road between US 22 and NJ 57 that was recently approved by Lopatcong as well.
So why is there a need for 6 million, even 3 million sq ft of warehouses to be built in White township? On top of all the newly built, as well as the approved other warehouses going up in Lopatcong?!...This is going to affect all of Warren county. People live out here because they enjoy the peacefulness and that country life......gonna be a headache like the roads in Bergen county soon enough with all the building going on out here.....
What about the poor farmer who just wants to sell his land?
How are those other warehouses going? Eyesores? Traffic nightmares? Criminal element?
I agree, the traffic for this will change the rural into urban overnight. It’s too far in.
As far as I can tell, this developer looks like a stand up guy/company. Just saying fir all you blind mudslingers. Could be wrong, but seems like local guy developing the downtrodden. Not that that makes this right. NIMBY.
Seems like the entire river from Easton on up is warehouse, solar plant, or other commercial. Wonder if floods made land cheap, taxes disappear. Let him go up or down stream.
Bottom line: freakin zoning matters. Government matters. Smart government. With smart lawyers. Towns can strike a blow against developers. You can own the zone! That’s how Chatham looks like Chatham
The bright side is the fact that it becomes a HUGE commercial/industrial rateable and will generate a very small amount of additional children/STUDENTS that consume the majority of our property tax dollars.
Residential development= huge school cost
Commercial development= surplus tax dollars to municipal/county budgets.
What’ll it be?
Can’t have it both ways.
Actually Stymie, if it remains farmland, you can have it both ways.
Everyone loves ratables but no one likes the look and feel of what they get, how it changes the community, and the costs that it does incur. I am guessing they might be able to berm this out of eyesight, but you can’t berm a semi on the road, anticipate the costs for road repair, traffic control, and cleaning up the accidents.
But the worst effect can be on the community’s biggest asset and the main priority of local government to protect and enhance; housing values. It’s bad enough having the power smokestacks from PA looming over you, the high wire act overhead, but when your neighborhood gets filled with trucks and warehouses, you can kiss you biggest asset goodbye.
And most of these local governments just don’t having the skills for that type of planning. Otherwise this developer would have already been zoned out of business.
Even if it remains farmland those teachers benefits and salaries continue to increase. As taxes go up..fewer people can afford to live...so the smaller population that can still exist gets hammered harder and harder
Wholeheartedly agree that area planning boards are often ill prepared to make sound decisions.
I believe that most planning board members are appointed by the Mayor and serve at their pleasure.
If more qualified people refuse to step up and make a contribution, this is what will result. JMHO.
It’s like the weather “everyone complains about it, but no one does anything”.
That being said, the area will benefit from the construction project as well as area businesses providing supportive services ( landscape, luncheonettes, gas stations, tires, etc.)
Staffing the facility may also provide a small bump to the area real estate market
You can't force a property to remain farmland through zoning alone. There needs to be a potential development component, be it residential, commercial or industrial.
I suspect that the Board decided to zone it for warehouses thinking that no one in their right mind would pick that area to actually BUILD warehouses and they were afraid of residential development putting a strain on the schools and increased school taxes. Unfortunately for them, someone called their bluff...
Bug3 -- not necessarily true. In a "perfect world," property values, incomes, all remain within the inflation rates of the tax expenditure inflation rates. Just saying. Truth is the numbers probably squirrel around all over the place due to developments, enrollments, etc. Point is Stymie has a point, commercial adds more to the coffers, spends less, than residential. Tis a fact from what I read.
However, that does not mean commercial is king. Remember, the prime directive, or should be, for local government is retention of property values or, better yet, developing in a manner that increase property values. Show me the money or get out of office. Anyone can cut, it's takes an expert to grow property values, gain revenue. Ask Oxford. All they know how to do is cut. Same with Hackettstown for the most part and I am sure a few others. However, I do give credit to H-town for BID. They seem to add value, cost-effectively. And as Main Street prospers, so does Grand Ave. and the rest of our community. But when they booger up Bergen Tool, the area suffers, property value wise.
Not sure Iman -- why can't it just be farmland assessed, and stay farmland assessed? Who says there has to be a development concept? Don't matter though, White has this zoned as low-density industrial district which I think Jain's plans comply with. Additionally he has offered scaled back plans, still huge though, but he has added farmland and possibly a public land offset.
I am no expert in zoning, but if his original plans met the zoning laws, good luck with an amendment at this point. And given Jain has offered scale-backs, set-backs, and public offsets ----- personally, I think the board should sit down and hammer out the deal. I think he wins so good to get as much as you can. Like I said, I think he may be one of the good guys ---- if any developer is good. Look to his other sites -- seems good to me. So far, can't find the bad. So my recommendation is sit down hammer it out. Berms can hide buildings, you can negotiate to add farmland, public space, and perhaps ---- just perhaps --- devise a plan to reduce the pain of the traffic. You never know. Even light pollution, of which this could be dramatic, can be managed --- ask Disney --- you can barely see their parks after dark. It's truly magical, a design which I am trying to recreate at my own home theme park.. :>)
That said, Stymie is right-on IMO. And that's the problem. The zoners screwed up. They always figure, got to have some residential, some commercial, some industrial, oh a few high density, some low income and, and, and then they put a picture together and voila --- the dye is cast and you get this mess. If they didn't want a warehouse, why the zoning? The problem Symie is that in White, and places like it, you can't find a capable person to step up. Not that they are stupid, it's just that Iman does not live there..... There is no talent pool. And how can the mayor help --- they usually don't have the talent for this either.
Or you can say "life in the country, get used to it." You know, where a few guys own a lot of land, want to prosper, and everyone else wants unchanging, unwavering, bucolic beauty without paying for it. Makes me want to install a 40 foot high wall around my acres...….
Not much of an update; you had to figure they would be compliant.
Really is probably best for the town to negotiate for best terms; looks like they screwed up and this guy has a lot of cash invested already. If he doesn't get his warehouse, he gonna have a huge loss. They should be talking about all the olive branches he offered like the set-backs, smaller profiles, and public land offering. Hopefully some great building blocking berms. It's time to smell the coffee.
Meanwhile, they still can create traffic laws...….no engine breaking......lower speeds...…max vehicle weights..... might be some traction there to limit the damage to the rural environment. Although foul rift is, IMO, not exactly the prettiest part of the Delaware...…. Wonder why it's called foul rift?
Foul rift is named for the hidden rock and strong currents there that could wreck boats and ferrys, from what I have heard.
Don't concede yet, the Delaware Riverkeeper's lawyer has been retained.
Olive branches- set backs that have no bearing on truck traffic, public land on an open field next to a warehouse? Duh. No thanks.
You are probably right re: legal environmental concerns that there might be some traction there, but probably talking pavement run-off, snd there’s plenty of room, no one to complain about run-off containment. Iman probably knows more.
Re zoning: shoulda thought about that before setting the zoning. Duh! Coulda changed that after the last couple decades of giant warehouse facilities opening up everywhere shoulda opened their eyes. No duh!
Any lawyer getting paid will take the case. Ultimately, if White persists, White will pay. Right now the developer seems amenable. They should negotiate for best terms before it gets too nasty and the developer takes them to task.
Re; traffic. I believe they can pass some restrictive laws here. That’s why the dumpers use 46 and avoid Hope. That’s about the only poison pill I can see.
Unlike other warehouse projects, this one isn't adjacent to a major highway. There's 8 or 11 miles of narrow 2 lane county road before a truck would reach 57/22 or route 80 via 46. So while the lack of zoning constraints is still poor planning, it's also not a realistic or expected site for this type of development. Hence the major uproar.
The Delaware Riverkeeper's lawyer picked apart the application and found several flaws that the engineer could not answer under oath. The latest article only spoke of one side of the application. Of course the engineer is going to state the application is "100% complete and compliant" and the is the quote that the paper takes!
If approved we as Warren County residents will ultimately pay in the form of higher county taxes, increases truck traffic on county roads and a degraded quality of life.
Folks, I agree this is a travesty and there are so, so many other things I would like to see, starting with a farm. Darned straight the truck traffic will be a tragedy, however degrading quality of life, not sure to what degree, but OK. And yes, the traffic situation is unimaginable, I think there might be traction in traffic laws, at least it might help mitigate the issue. And if the place does not work, not sure if that wouldn't be worse, all those empty bare buildings.. And agreed, the article was a flack piece from the developer. I hope that the environmental lawyer can take issue, I really do.
But what were the issues getting picked apart without response?
Why with Warren County pay higher county taxes?
Pretty smart to take it to a county level though, that could help White. Even a probable state issue. After all, the state will ultimately foot the bill to put in a new 4- lane Route 31-like highway...… :>((( Thanks for that link, sounds interesting for anyone who wants to get involved. Kind of complicated list though.
Why a new four lane highway needed?
Rte 57 is basically two lanes all the way to Hackettstown.
Same with Rte 46 -through Dover and Rockaway.
Much ado over traffic.
M&M sends tons of truck traffic to and from Rte 80.
Theres 8 or 11 miles of 2 lane 519 for trucks to travel BEFORE they reach a highway from where this warehouse project is proposed, Stymie.
If progress is a big hulking box on an impervious surface with no manufacturing jobs or decent work built over prime farmland is your idea of progress in a community that has been historically rural and enjoyed for that exact reason, than good luck with your future, kids!
Also, M&M manufactures and is not solely fulfillment. Very different scenario proposed for White Township.
According to the website, the ITE engineers estimate between 8 and 80 vehicles a day the upper limit being parcel hub businesses. That is, if that estimate was a yearly traffic; can't tell, and other links don't seem to include.
My point is if traffic gets heavier, at some point the roads need expansion. I have really no idea when, how much, or how much trucking Mars has given that's a completely different business.
M&M-materials trucked in ( corn syrup, etc) product shopped out- candy.
No commercial, industrial- no property tax (school bill) relief.
Kepa— why don’t you bulldoze your house down?
Start a movement to the “way we were”?
Didn’t think so...
What are you saying, Styman? Thanks for the MM's logistics model; if you really wanted to put the hyphen in AR, you might have added MM's has much more worker cars than any warehouse district. But since it's still apples and oranges, so what? But thanks for the description.
Aren't commercial property taxes used for school funding? Does not commercial generally pay more than residential.....which pays more than farmland.....
As to the traffic effect, given the range in the estimates, the effect goes from nothing to "oh God, oh God, we're all gonna die....." Methinks truth is somewhere's in between and that we still don't know.
Nah I'd rather see manufacturing built there. M&M, Borealis, Thomas&Betts, all provide PRODUCTION rather than a WAREHOUSE SHIPPING Hub. All with a much smaller foortprint. Have you looked at Janidl's proposal? All fulfillment clients.
Low jobs per square foot, low pay per job, low opportunity for advancement, low return on agricultural land ruined.
What on earth does bulldozing a house that already exists have to do with smart future planning for land that exists on the very edge of the Highlands planning area, obviouslt of great ecological and human value? Why are you making childish arguments? Too naturey out here for you?
No Quick Check.
NO PROPERTY TAX RELIEF.
Then you’ll b*tch about that...
Property taxes in white twp are fantastic. So no. And we have a quick chek!
You are immature, sir.
Mr 4 paws ….read the following , Buffet owns several rail / trains.
Nov 4, 2009 - SIOUX FALLS, S.D. (AP) - South Dakota's largest freight rail carrier, Burlington Northern Santa Fe, soon will be part of Warren Buffett's marquee holding company, Berkshire ... Berkshire already had a 22 percent interest in BNSF and has ... CSX and Norfolk Southern - three of which Berkshire Hathaway is ...
Kepa-“To naturey” for me?
Strongly suggest, for the quiet confines, you consider Minnesota or at least central/western Pennsy.
75 miles outside of the the NYC/Philadelphia/DC corridor was poor planning on your part.
Sure i would love fracking contaminating my groundwater in central/western PA, and the lack of hills in MN would be a bummer. See ya~
NIMBY. What an interesting concept.
Yet we all still want next day delivery for all the junk we buy...
Stymie can barely reply to a point to further an online discussion, not sure if they are capable of appreciating the quality of life that causes people to enjoy living here, unfortunately.
You want to keep it green?
You buy it.
You refer to me as if I don’t live in this area.
Change is inevitable.
NJ is the most densely populated state in the country.
Maybe a little more research on your part was warranted?
Much of the Central/Western PA groundwater contains runoff from coal mines, just so you know. There's so much iron and/or sulphur in some ares that you'd swear you could stand a spoon in a glass of the stuff.
Degrading agricultural land into low return fulfillment centers is not smart growth, it is not progress, and it is definitely not inevitable. Did you see me say that other uses such as light manufacturing and greenhouse or ag use would be more appropriate?
How would I do this research on where you live, google "stymie warren county resident"?
You seem to be a pretty dense part of the population, and if you don't value the character of our area I could really care less if you live in it.
Township master plans and zoning maps are subject to regular review and adjustment.
Present are the Mayor, the planning Board, the Township Engineer and the Township Attorney. The general public, residents as well as non residents are able to participate.
The meetings are open and are advertised in local periodicals as well as the Township’s website.
Guess you should have freed up some time to make your voice heard.
Can’t understand NIMBY and getting packages fast; interesting, but.....
Can’t understand not wanting to turn farmland into something else, interesting....
Can’t understand folks wanting to develop assets....interesting.
Certainly the people in White don’t understand zoning. Hopefully, the environmental lawyers understand their craft.
Down with the warehouses!! Again, 6 large ones are being constructed in Lopatcong!!! Why in the F do we need another 6 million square foot monstrosity within miles away?!
Kepa, think dreaming of light mfg or even greenhouse use might not win you friends. There’s some greenhousing already coming up, up the road and I am hard pressed to see a huge difference; looks like warehouses almost......
Stymie finally makes a good point and that’s one of the problems. Our system of governance. Local government seems totally inadequate, bamboozled and flummoxed on this one. Apparently, they were not equipped to handle what they wrought. Freakin should do this stuff at a county level so we can, at minimum, get the best of the county to do the planning. Not the best of the neighborhood, they seem not up to the task: again.
The flaws that the Delaware Riverkeeper attorney found were related to the depth of the test pits and the retention basin. I had to leave the meeting early so I did not hear this first hand but was told by other community members. Clearly the application was NOT 100% complete and compliant.
In November it was reported by the White twp. engineer that CR519 was near capacity, and any warehouse style of development would put the roadway over capacity and would then require improvements. Surely Jandel will offer to make some of those improvements, but once he does the maintenance and upkeep will fall on the citizens on Warren County. If you follow Jandel's other projects in the Lehigh Valley he will typically be looking for tax breaks after improvements are made. His play book is very visible in other Lehigh Valley towns that he has screwed and destroyed with massive developments.
2cents: good info. At the beginning of this I looked at Jaindl's developments and could not find screwed and destroyed....you got your list? Thanks. I looked again, and beyond finding issues like the one White is facing, couldn't seem rampant destruction and ruination. I found your source and they basically reiterated the general statements that you alluded to. They honestly seem to be as good a developer, as developers go. And yeah, farms and turkeys seem like a good thing to do, although people downwind and downstream might disagree.
That said, they are a savvy developer and White should bear notice that these folks will take them to task, and have done so many times in the past as a course of doing business.
Is the current proposals the 800,000 sq ft expanding to 3M....or is he still going for the full 6M?
Do you have the White twp engineer's report, didn't see it might have missed it on the website and thinking 519 at or even near capacity seems almost laughable. Of course, I don't travel at rush hour. There appears to be little relevant traffic estimates for the current proposal.
Can't imagine he will look for tax breaks unless the town government is on the take.
Those engineering issues seem readily solvable, hope they have more, and really, did anyone expect them to pass on this pass?
Definitely true stymie, again in this case the setting and local infrastructure was not a likely spot for this proposition. The spot right off of 22 in Lopatcong, or Amazon acquiring the old Sam's club in ITC shopping center certainly make sense from a logistical standpoint.
Stranger danger, greenhouses are an agricultural and appropriate setting for rural White Twp. The argument against the warehouse is largely the traffic volume (just check the accident reports from warehouse heavy Macungie Twp/Lehigh Valley for the small roads that lead trucks out to the highways), HUGE facility size, and plan submitted for so much impervious area. Just to store some crap in extremely low staffed buildings. A light manufacturing facility proposition could be a welcome use of the site with a much smaller building footprint and the proposition of decent jobs - especially with the closure of Graham packaging in Belvidere recently.
Residents aren't NIMBYS arguing against any type of building. I personally wouldn't want to see residential either (more runoff and we don't need a ton more population of low density housing in WC - good riddance Toll Brothers).
The arguments against this project may be 11th hour, but they are sound in their reasoning and a little hindsight might go a long way towards strengtheing future planning and community involvement.
Kepa, again, I have no issue with having issue with any development, although, IMO, I will take quiet buildings, building blocking berms, soa low pollution lighting, sound abetment, over anything more active. I also have no issue with NIMBY -- I think the phrase is appropriate and self-explanatory. However, to my way of thinking, lite industrial would not be welcomed. Especially since you are beeming in your concept of size.
Fact is, White made it's bet and was called. $11M for 600 acres sounds like a steal to me for the zoning. He bought a light industrial zone for the price of agro land. Why not blame the owner? Just saying. For $12M, I bet Jaindl would give up the fight. That's about $2,500 for every White resident or about $115 per Warren County resident. That's the real cost of avoidance for either White or Warren.
With that water under the bridge, I am just trying to put some facts on the table, hopefully offering some level of support. Folks are looking for a poison pill that will make Jaindl want to go away. Generally, people getting emotional, offering unsubstantiated arguments, and fight, fight, fight will not rule the day. Probably makes the day by wasting time and effort as the development just keeps grinding ahead.
This developer has offered to work together, he has lowered the size (might have been the real plan all along), have offering greater set-backs, green-space and even a public land offering, --- really, he has no reason to do this except to smooth the path and move forward with less friction from his neighbors. Personally, I would be:
- working for as much win-win with Jaindl as they can get
- trying to use traffic rules and regulations, possibly new law to either minimize or thwart the pending traffic increase; I doubt there's a poison pill there though.
- hoping this environmental lawyer can find a real poison pill.
If it has to go in, IMO, with a good partnering, proper berms, light pollution reduction technologies, sound abetment, along with appropriate environmental protections, may be where this ends up ----- unless White really pisses this guy off and he reneges on his offers. That leaves traffic, for which we really don't have an accurate estimate yet, but gather it has to be worse than current and this it's totally out of place for this region. Semi's on 519 are not the norm and I believe Hope has already limited their end via there engine breaking laws. At least that's why folks tell me the dumpers keep rolling on 46 through Independence. Beyond engine breaking laws, speed limits, etc. ---- not sure what can be done there, but that's one major place to attack, IMO.
But "just check the accident reports from warehouse heavy Macungie Twp/Lehigh Valley for the small roads that lead trucks out to the highways" does not jump out at me as anything more than baying at the moon and seems a problem in search of a source. Likewise, the "White twp. engineer that CR519 was near capacity, and any warehouse style of development would put the roadway over capacity" is as bogus as the Jaindl engineer saying "we be 100% compliant."
If folks want to really push back, then facts are our friends, and I have yet to see too much of real value in that regard. I would like to say it's early yet, but really, it is not. I really wish all luck here; I would not like this, I would not like light industrial worse, and I am not in love with greenhouse factories either --- although I love the idea of 12 months of local tomato's. I think our salads and fresh spices can be local now, for example.
Greenhouse Factories? Huh. Profitable agriculture could look like a "factory." All of the living herbs at local Shoprites come from the greenhouse "factory" further north on 519. It's a viable business.
My statement about increased traffic concerns and accidents is certainly based on fact - such as this Morning Call article https://www.mcall.com/business/transportation/mc-biz-crash-intersections-lehigh-valley-municipality-20191028-fbwnfzajhrdgpnxcql72v3q5nm-story.html
Not sure why you accuse people of making things up and then say silly things like light manufacturing (WHICH ALREADY EXISTS ON SIMILAR LOCAL SITES) is preferable to a static warehouse where nothing is made, no one is paid much to not make anything and pick product. Deroche Canvas exists on 519, so do multiple quarries and recycling facilities, steel fabrication exists right on Foul Rift Rd next to a solar feed. All fairly passive use and contributing jobs and product to the area. BASF ships NOTHING CLOSE out of their facility than the projections made by Jaindl's outfit for logistics center warehouses.
Not sure why you think a warehouse distribution center tucked away behind some non-native trees on a mowed berm is any less obtrusive, or preferable for that site.
4 weeks ago
And what about all the poor folks who have houses along 519; they are very concerned-rightfully so-about their home values dropping and possibly losing part of their yards to road expansion. The traffic is already horrible and this proposition would make it ten times worse!!
meant to say "isn't preferable to a static warehouse"
And here's some more info on Edible Gardens on 519 in White Twp https://ediblegarden.com/ "We believe in sustainable, local produce, grown in Zero-Waste Inspired ™ greenhouses. It’s why we work with local, eco-friendly greenhouses who know how important it is to grow hydroponic herbs and produce responsibly."
4 weeks ago
Weis too, I think. Thanks for the link. I had been out there last year and they were still building the expansion; There's a store too so again, thanks, want to buy fresh.
Re: NIMBY, what do you think Mackay's are screaming, "yeah man, give me more of that greenhouse look on my horizon." Use googlemaps, street view to see the wall..... OR, googlemaps, satellite view to see all the truck trailers and farm trash…. Probably all good, probably very organic, but that's a steel rail, not a green field. Thanks though, love the product, want to try the store. Viable business, probably. It's a really cool collective so good chance, real farmers, and a really good idea. I hate the fact that we get our winter tomatoes from Canada. WTF we can't tomato compete with Canada?? That's just lame. But if that's a 15 acre small business, what does the 600 acer one look like?
Did I accuse you of making things up? I keep trying to say: get your ducks in a row.
Feelings are one thing, opinions the same. But facts are what you need. Because on the traffic, I think I pretty much agreed it's gonna get worse. But to ask anyone just to check such n such intersection is not going to persuade anyone really. No one will check for you. And to back it up with a report on the worst intersections really isn't going to help. At least not well. Matter of fact, one might conclude that, while trucks cause more, and bigger accidents, that most LV accidents are at intersections having absolutely nothing to do with warehouses.
Just for you, I read that tome and searched on your intersection, here's what I found.
"Lower Macungie Township Route 222 and North Krocks Road: This intersection feeds into the Hamilton Crossings shopping center. This summer, PennDOT raised the speed limit to 55 mph after years of complaints, but this data reflects a time when most drivers routinely ignored the posted 45 mph speed limit. The corner saw 61 crashes, resulting in 1 serious injury and 65 other injuries." Lots of accidents so they raised the speed limit. Don't see warehouse causation, perhaps it's there and not mentioned.
The next one is better: "Macungie Route 100 and Chestnut Street: Big rigs are barred from driving on Route 100 through the south end of the borough, so a lot of traffic is diverted onto Chestnut Street. The corner had the most crashes in the borough, with six, which resulted in two injuries." Six accidents per year so probably not the one.
And the last one: "Upper Macungie Township: The township’s worst intersection is the Tilghman Street and Route 22 interchange, which had 57 crashes and 37 injuries. Aside from being the meeting point of two busy roads, the interchange is next to the Route 22 and Northeast Extension interchange, which funnels plenty of traffic into the area as well." Could be warehouses or could be R22/NE Extensions etc. Can't tell.
And that's my point: everyone knows the traffic will get worse, but you haven't proven that is does, much less that it's due to warehouses. I think you are right, but if you go against these guys, you need ammo.
My feelings on light mfg vs. greenhouses, versus warehouses and just that: my opinions. Neither mine or yours are silly and I am sorry if that's my meaning you derived. You and I have different ideas about light mfg which you see as small affair and I see as a 600-freakin acre Jaindl version. Or greenhouse factories of which you note a 15 acre version --- what's that googlemap satellite view look like at 600 acres? It says: 15 acre version has 10 cars and 6 semi-trailers. Try 400 cars and 260 semi trailers at 600 acres IF it's a linear function which I am sure it is not.
Again, that's just my feelings about what I would like better, which, for the record, is a farm or a park. So White, put up the $12M.....or deal with Jaindl for a best result.....or if you fight ---- facts are your friends and pray for those environmental lawyers. Or ask the county to buy it: I will put in my $300/person price.
Here is an opinion article from Freeholder Kern regarding warehouses in Warren Co.
Well, at least he knows there is a problem. And now all it takes is creating a distributed network of local home rulers combined with concerned citizens to come up with solutions.
Good luck herding those cats.
Maybe home rule is just yesterday’s governance model and that’s a problem too. One that basically precludes the author’s solution. But they did identify the problems!
I would be curious as to the effort Mayor Kern made when in office to combine Municipal services to better constrain costs and more effectively focus REGIONAL development control.
Me thinks-not much.
He was way too busy counting his red light camera proceeds and fighting to not have to share any of it with Greenwich Township for that trivial stuff, Stymie.
Turkey Man Sucks!
We are witnessing the downfall of north west NJ and the Lehigh Valley right now. It is happening.
Warehouses (soon to be automated) are the greatest threat to NJ, and anyone who tells you otherwise is lying to you.
Years of incompetent planning, greed, disconnected politicians, and out of control school costs (small districts) will leave everything paved and without even any real career opportunity.
Only wealthier townships and highlands sensitive areas may survive.
Goodbye, NJ, you need a lawyer!
Honestly, why do you think Turkey Man sucks? As developers goes, he seems like one of the better ones. Everyone keeps calling names, but not a lot of facts supporting them..... That said:
Because I had to quest for the world's best Kielbasi, I found unleashing the Krakus in P-burg and decided to take Belvidere Road back up North. From the 519 intersection, the first thing I noticed is a #$#$ of a lot of traffic. I mean we were at 11:30 am and it was a solid car train, Unfreakinbelieveable for nowhere NJ. Felt like being on 206 almost. Much more than 57. And at a pretty good speed, think there maybe a lot a 50 mph there; don't know since no need when your bumper drafting anyways because on the volume. Second, counted over 15 semi, or semi equivalents on my journey, again seemed like a boat load for that road. Where did they come from , where are they going, and why the heck use this road --- could it be the speed limit? Only one was a quarry truck. I know it's more traffic than you would find on 46 West of H-town, at least until 519. Lastly, I noticed the 15-acre Edible Plants greenhouses and yeah ----- you tell me the difference tween these plastic warehouses and the tin ones Jaindl will put up. Not picking a winner, but just saying ---- a huge wall is a huge wall. Not to mention like a 7 bay trucking distribution center right on and facing the freakin road...… So you already got the walls, you got the trucks, you got a distribution center, and you got troubles ---- right here along the river.
Good luck, don't think you have a chance thanks to your terrible Home Rule zoning choices, but it's already really bad traffic and bad buildings with the new stuff always being worse than the existing. Even the greenhouses are a visual nightmare.
Again, hopefully between traffic regulations and your environmental lawyer, you can find that poison pill. I just could not believe how much traffic for 11:30am on a Thursday.
Build the warehouse and add/modify the nearby roads to accommodate the traffic.. The town involved needs the ratables. It will also help Warren County. The existing businesses will benefit from the people coming and going and working there. New jobs will benefit our residents. Amazon and the other online retailers will deliver our merchandise faster. In ten years no one will remember what the fuss was about.
Might as well have built that airport in the Great Swamp too, Jono
3 weeks ago
I like the huge progress being made at the Dunkin’ Donuts/ old crossroads diner.
The White Township Planning Board will hold their February 11, 2020 meeting at the White Township Elementary School, 565 County Route 519, White Township, Warren County, New Jersey. This meeting will commence at 7:00 P.M. in the School Cafeteria.
Citizens For Sustainable Development Facebook page.
5 days ago
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