Homes not Selling

It seems to me that many homes on the market in our area don't sell quickly. I see the for sale signs on the same houses for months and months. Has anyone noticed this? Why aren't homes selling?

Prices and taxes too high.

dodgebaal dodgebaal
March 19th

Recession is coming...

Cord cutter Cord cutter
March 19th

It’s nj people are moving out not in unless they are illegal.

Billy Mack
March 19th

And....the taxes will be going up again......How are the roads going to get fixed ???

Young and old alike can't keep paying these high taxes! Governor Murphy is now going to tax rain water! Buying a home is not an investment anymore in New Jersey!
When you can move to PA or NY and pay half why buy in NJ!

You have to be a teacher to afford to live here. That's where your tax $ goes..or a cop or other state job so you can get on the pension bandwagon

March 19th

It's not just home price and taxes. Nowadays people prefer to live not far from work and unfortunately there are less and less well-paying, stable companies in our area. If company moves out of our area, there is no point to buy house in Hackettstown. Even Centenary offers classes somewhere else.

It's time for me to look out of state.Let the socialist,communists and democrats tax themselves into the state of New Venezuela. have fun kiddies.

Frank 1945 Frank 1945
March 19th

We will not retire in this state, why retire here and deplete everything you worked for when you can retire in the south and have far more finacial freedom.

Jesse132 Jesse132
March 19th

Did anyone actually present any facts before posting here?

Are home sales actually slowing.

Or is it winter and not the home selling season?

StrangerDanger StrangerDanger
March 19th

So with only a question, the automatic assumption is it must be true?

I got two items in the mail yesterday with lists of homes that sold in the past six months. Just in my neighborhood alone seven sold within an average of 36 days. That's not bad for the winter months when it's slower. I know there were a bunch of sales in May and June last year. (5 in those two months if I recall correctly) The prices are all up about 10% as well with half getting full asking price.

Maybe it's more about the individual homes. There is one in the neighborhood that has been listed 4 times. But it's a builder's house with all sorts of upgrades and fancy touches with a very high asking price. It's not surprising given the price that 4 others have been sold instead including one right next to it listed for $40,000 less.

To answer the original question, I would suggest looking more at the individual home, and the comps. Chances are there is either something about the location, the condition, or the price of the home.

Maybe the home itself is not worth buying? There are a lot of junkers out there for which people still try to get top dollar. Can’t tell you how many homes I saw that were stuck in 1983, had structural issues, or musty basements when I was shopping. There was one home I wouldn’t enter because it had a pungent and pervasive odor I couldn’t even identify.

YeahRight YeahRight
March 19th

I'm new to the area, but I completely agree that it's not so much about the market, but about the property in question.

My wife and I just moved from Maplewood to Hackettstown this past October. We bought a very old home right in town. It's in perfectly livable condition, by which I mean everything works, but it is entirely outdated. It will be an ongoing project for, most likely, the entire time we live here (we're in our mid-50s). We absolutely love it, but by any objective assessment it is a fixer-upper. If I recall correctly, it had been on the market for roughly 6 months. I believe we were the only people who showed any serious interest in it.

By contrast, a block and a half down on our same street, there is a similarly old home (slightly larger) which, during the time we were looking, was completely renovated inside and out. It is arguably in a less desirable spot that ours, but it sold in a matter of weeks for roughly $140k more than we paid for ours.

Yes taxes are high because of the schools and if you have kids in the school system you want a good rating for the school your kid is going to.

Based on this website the schools in the zip code 07882 are average or below average. Nothing like paying $12k in property taxes and have average or below average schools.

We sold our home 4 years ago and moved out of NJ after living in the same home for 28 years. We were lucky our home sold in 21 days but we also kept up with the home over the years by installing a new kitchen, windows, roof, etc etc. We were the first owners for the home when constructed in a development in 1987.

NotIn NJ Anymore NotIn NJ Anymore
March 19th

The houses in diamond hill that have gone up this winter looked to have sold in weeks. Our homes zillow estimate after all those sales trended 19k higher. From what i see if the house is 175k to 375k they selll. Over that they seem to sit. The cheap ones that sit you usually find have issues like an oil tank removal or a bad septic the owner will not address.

People claiming that Hackettstown taxes are outrageously high should talk to Monty... Maplewood taxes are about double that.

My buddy's parents live there... 1/4-acre lot, 100-year old house of moderate size, detached 2-car garage... $23k for property taxes.

ianimal ianimal
March 19th

Nice list of assumed, mostly ugly guesses - Thank you GC for some facts.

4catmom 4catmom
March 19th

Some homes are on the market for less than a day in panther valley. I agree some homes have some problems take the home that’s been on the market next to donaldsons who wants to live next to a power tower. Might as well knock it down and farm it.

If you took a look at some of the house listings in the area you'd see how much people are trying to get for their crap houses. No one wants to pay top dollar for a piece of junk.

honestyseasy honestyseasy
March 19th

IDK, homes seem to be selling ok here in Diamond Hill. But there are 2 categories:

Homes that have been empty for years (foreclosures), finally getting sold at a bank sale or whatever, usually need alot of work.

Homes that have been taken care of... these seem to be selling fine.

Of course there are always the homes that have NOT been taken care of, but the seller is arrogant and wants more than it's worth, those for sale signs have been up for months or years. But you have a couple of those everywhere....

I don't see alot of house flipping going on in NJ, and that tells me the housing market hasn't really recovered... (in NJ; it HAS recovered elsewhere across the country)

JeffersonRepub JeffersonRepub
March 19th

Warren County sales are very different than other NJ counties. We enter housing recession earlier and bounce back later. When prices are low, people move closer in.

StrangerDanger StrangerDanger
March 19th

I drive from washington thru mansfield into hackettstown everyday via rockport road. There are numerous houses that have realtor signs for many months. It really concerns me about my own house when it comes time to sell. I have a friend who is a realtor and she says every house sells for the right price (low) but seeing the same homes not selling is depressing.

Yupper, I looked on Zillow and a number of 1yr or longers there. I think its price; either they have to have it or think it’s worth it. Just as many sold on Rockport in same period probably.

Price competition against newer homes with two story atriums, walk ins and the like is tough.

StrangerDanger StrangerDanger
March 19th

"Rockport Road" - Susan, most of what you are looking at are large farms, not houses. That explains why you're stilling seeing the same signs.

Ianimal don't talk about Maplewood :) A coworker retired 10 years ago and sold that tax pit in Maplewood and moved to just outside Asheville NC.

Solution, more high paying jobs in NW NJ, reduction of unnecessary education costs (too many Superintendents, too costly health insurance, retiree medical, and finally pensions). Police forces also need to be regionalized too to maximize value.

My friends house sold in Hackettstown in 6 days. Price and location sells. Period!

Lots of people are trying to sell it for more then they bought it before the bubble popped in 08.

2 cents 2 cents
March 19th

When you factor in the taxes, which, by the way, don't even scratch the surface of the 100 BILLION dollar debt owed to the retirees, the prices of housing here need to drop significantly. Younger workers cannot absorb that debt, overpay for a house that smells like Rheingold and cabbage, pay into Social Security and Medicare, yet be exempt from both when they will be bankrupt. Let alone having to pay more and more for their own healthcare, and not have a real pension, but gambling in the stock market. This is why the statistics are saying new buyers can only afford it if their parents or grandparents provide them with a large down payment. This has been all over the news lately.

dodgebaal dodgebaal
March 19th

Stranger danger- i was thinking the same about prices being too high maybe but a few have actually been abandoned. Why wouldn't people just keep lowering price until it sells? Isn't that better than foreclosure?

GC- not all are farms. There are many colonial type homes on regular size lots. Maybe they are competing with neighborhood homes and people prefer a neighborhood rather than a main road with few neighbors?

NJ reaps what it sows.

Susan - Besides the farms there are only three properties for sale on Rockport. One is owned by the VA, one is a house that was split in two for a rental property, and the other is the stone house. That was foreclosed on and bought cheap a couple of months ago, apparently for resale.

NJ is great! Its just no country for old men!

High taxes, best schools, great wages, better raises!

Most of those sitting houses are too much for the offer. The stone house at Allen ain’t worth that price IMO and I think he bought it from the bank.

SS and Medicare — we all need to pay more. Just do the math against the longer lifespans. True for the nation, NJ has nothing ro do woth that. Rant on.

StrangerDanger StrangerDanger
March 19th

Good afternoon all, Housing inventory is low. Nice, good condition, and priced right will sell within weeks. There are many depressed and/or outdated homes or properties that need extensive septic and well improvements. If anyone has a home to sell or is looking to purchase, please contact me and we can discuss further. Amy A. Bandel, EXIT Realty Connection (Hackettstown)

Amy Bandel Amy Bandel
March 19th

GC- where are you looking? Online? I haven't looked online but there are a lot more than that. If you get a chance, driving from hackettstown, there are at least 3 colonials on the left past Airport road with realtor signs.

If that stone house wasn’t 4 feet from the road, it’d be a cool house to own.

March 19th

SD a 6 out of 10 school rating for Hackettstown isn't good, it's mediocre. For what people pay in taxes they deserve better. And it really depends on what you do for work. I could have moved to Texas 10 years ago making a NJ salary and would have lived more comfortably there had I gone. Texas and other lower taxed states are looking better every day I'm here....

Metsman Metsman
March 19th

NJ is a decaying State. Hackettstown is run like crap across the board. From education to the BID. It's out of touch and out of date. For the taxes we pay we get sub standard education and other services. Warren county falls in the middle of all 21 counties. Bad in poverty amongst children and rampant with sexually transmitted disease according to reports. The later most likely due to lack of education. Morris county continues to rank #1 amongst all counties.

“If that stone house wasn’t 4 feet from the road, it’d be a cool house to own.”

If the owner or a friend of them sees this- I would LOVE to metal detect there.

Or pretty much anywhere else now that the weather is warming. :P

Well Don, maybe you should sell your house and either move back to Morris County or to another state.

I can’t even count all the threads you’ve commented on expressing your disdain for Hackettstown, Warren County, overall the state of NJ. Your redundancy is tiring.

Positive Positive
March 19th

Hey just telling it like it is. There are many threads and many posters with the same sentiment. My plan is to leave the State just like many here have and will do. Believe me I'd like nothing better than for Warren county and Hackettstown not to be in the disheveled state it's in. And as someone who pays nearly $11K in taxes to live here, I think I have a right to bitch. I assume you stay "positive" by ignoring what's right in front of you.

We listed our home last July and finally sold in early February. We live in pondview in great Meadows. We had lots of showings and open houses. Main issue was potential buyers felt home was too far from job. We had a few people who would look but would tell our agent " we are looking for a four bedroom'. It was clearly stated that this was a three bedroom. While I am happy we sold, I am sad to leave our friends and the area after 28 years here. We have no choice. My husband and I are both retired. The property taxes are too high and winter's too cold. It's more related to the taxes. We are heading to Port Orange, Florida. Much lower taxes. I looked at the breakdown of our property taxes, close to 50 percent goes towards school taxes and the rest is state/ local. I think when folks get to a certain age, the school taxes should be drastically reduced. With that said, I am going to miss this beautiful area. Just last night there were about ten deer going from my yard to the farm behind us.

Positive obviously you're complacent about the situation here. I'd bet half the population would like to leave. It isn't as simple as picking up and leaving.

Metsman Metsman
March 19th

I chose to move out here - bought here - sold in Wanaque - plan to stay until they carry me out - It's beautiful - mostly peaceful - lovely scenery - and the property taxes are no higher than they were in my last townhome - At my age I save the whining for important things - like health -

4catmom 4catmom
March 19th

No Metsman, not complacent, just tired of Don’s negativity towards the area. I too will most likely have to move out of state when I retire, but that doesn’t mean that I don’t love it here.

Positive Positive
March 19th

People don't want to sink all their savings into fixing up a over priced house! If the house a appraises for 240,000, and the house needs 50,000 to update, and you put 40,000 down, and commute 30 plus miles to work ! Well where is the investment? You will be in that house for life, also to pay 11,000 to 15,000 thousand in taxes, no wonder bankruptcy is so high in Warren County ! It is very hard for a young family to buy a home without a hardship!

I pay $10,500.

Warren county doesn't pay 11g to 15g in taxes on a 250k home

Really!?? You obviously don't live in Brookhollow or Hunter's Brook. I believe we carry the town for sure.

"No Metsman, not complacent, just tired of Don’s negativity towards the area."

Well positive, maybe Don is tired of your positivity towards the area.

You're just a proton, and he is an electron. It's just the way it is. Can't we all just get along!

dodgebaal dodgebaal
March 19th

Well Don if you live in Brook Hollow Or Hunter’s Brook your house is not $250k. Probably closer to double that. You yea bug is right for a $250k house you aren’t paying over $10k in property taxes in Hackettstown.

Avg home in Hackettstown is $276k.

If this is the case, why is the original amount 240k? Because somehow it's drilled into people's heads that these overpriced crap shacks are worth what people are asking for them. This charade has been going on for a while now, but the cash cow of owning a house is starting to collapse. This is why the oldest want out, they cannot lose money if they bought 20+ years ago. They want to leave the debt they owe in NJ, and flee to a new place where they can leave more debt.

dodgebaal dodgebaal
March 19th

Couldn’t find info on 2018 county property taxes

Positive Positive
March 19th

Rheingold and cabbage! LOL!

I looked in Hackettstown but... when weighing all the pros and cons, Morris County was the far better choice. Sorry Warren County, but you are a bit too backwards and not evolving with the times.

Location is everything.

YeahRight YeahRight
March 19th

Man, there is some knotted knickers out there today.... And no M-word or T-word even....

Hacketstown High might be middle of the pack, but that’s middle of the top education system in America. Lots of Ivy Leaguers coming out of there. And they earn it, didn’t buy it.

Warren taxes are lower than East of here. That and housing prices are the reason many of us here. Pos: all those county wide stats get skewed because of Phillipsburg, same with crime, same with the health survey.

We have some of the best wages in the nation; I take an auto deduction even if I transfer in-house. That’s the main readon I am here. In my decades here I have quadrupled + my pay without counting the bonuses, options, and perks. I have circled the globe a few times on the company. They put me through school. I met many famous folks. I love NJ. I was born here. And not in a nice place. I did not grow up here and, as a country boy, ended up here as it was a country as I could get.

I have always commuted 25 miles. I like fast cars, loose women, and low morals. Well, fast cars at least.....

Yes, the retired should leave, financially speaking. Our taxes lead the nation in reliance on property so if you don’t have income, the math is better elsewhere —- even if the overall entire average tax burden is the same. And by thousands per year which makes a difference on a fixed income. Especially if looking to downsize the abode.

And Don has a downer message, not a factual one.

Moving on.....

StrangerDanger StrangerDanger
March 19th

Susan - that's per the GSMLS, the official house listings. So yeah, now you start to get the idea of what's going on. I go by there regularly, and yes there are more than one of those signs up that's actually for the farm land. Maybe one or two are just agents looking for the business.

Jim L - I'm sure you already know but the HB ones are in the 400's but not 500's. The big ones in HB can run $11k. The $15k in taxes on a home is more like over in Morris Co. Those are the Washington Tsp or Chester rates.

Hackettstown is actually a little bit of a sellers market right now. Less than a sixth month supply based on sales and demand. My last Hackettstown listing sold in a few weeks. If it's a good house priced fairly it will sell.

In 2017. My Hackettstown sale: 3 months to sell. started high, lots of interest, no bites, dropped big time very fast, gone. Ended up better than realtors estimate. Lots of interest in area but lots of relatively new to compete with.

StrangerDanger StrangerDanger
March 19th

Couple of houses on Rockport Road are not selling because of several reasons. the railroad tracks and the high tension wires. The one house was broken into and robbed of all of the copper. A total overhaul is needed. One of the others has a big hacking garage in the back that would only be useful for somebody that has their own business or a hobby of some sort. Those kind of houses would take a special one of a kind buyer to purchase them.

For the record: yes, I cut my taxes almost exactly 50% by leaving Maplewood. I also have a bigger house on a slightly larger piece of property here compared to Maplewood.

@SD, and you didn't call me? ; )

GC- Just so you know, HB taxes run from mid $11's to low $15's..

March 19th

Maybe it was you :-\

StrangerDanger StrangerDanger
March 19th

GC, don’t you own a house in Hackettstown? I would think you would know what taxes you’re paying unless you’re not in town. I’m confused.

Bessie - I know what we pay in our neighborhood. But not necessarily the details of next door neighborhoods.

Such a silly thread....

Here's the year over year home sales for Warren County. Same number, 91, sold in 2019, 2018. Days on the market, pretty much the same, prices a bit higher.

Here's December 2018 showing the 2018 YTD showing increased pace of sales slightly outpaced by inventory with days to sale having a 10-day increase. Not exactly a slow down in any respect.

Facts are our friends. Nuff said.

Here's the general and effective tax rates for Warren county:

And if you are into comparison, try this spreadsheet:

for Excel users, if you color shade Warren County, then sort of 2018 values descending, you can have Warren County townships jump out at you. Amazingly, out of 567 townships, Belvidere comes in at 33rd highest general tax rate. Go figure, that just does not make sense. Washington 47, Oxford way out to 94, Phillipsburg 97, Washington 146, Mansfield 168, Indy 174, Liberty 234 and then Hackettstown 236. FYI Washington Township - Morris County = number 349.

OK, I am flummoxed and don't know what to make of that except that township costs are fixed from county to county but home values vary significantly and therefore to meet fixed costs with lower values, the general tax rate must be higher.....

In other words, general rates mean @$#@$@, but I doubt effective rates would clear the picture. Think you need to find average tax paid values as posted above in Pos's link. Just need more specification by township versus county, perhaps means, ranges, etc. to really tell.

Facts may be our friends but I guess you still need to choose. Choose wisely :>)

strangerdanger strangerdanger
March 20th

I would say that demand is slowing and current home prices have not come down accordingly. Eventually they will, if you are patient (that is if you are a buyer).

I'm not a realtor, and as mentioned I'm new to this area, but my experience everywhere else I've lived is that homes also tend to sell markedly better in the Spring and early Summer than they do other times of the year. I imagine the same is true here, as well.

"You have to be a teacher to afford to live here."

I am highly offended by this comment. I am a teacher and I work two jobs most of the calendar year just to support my family. I work six days a week and constantly have guilt because I miss time with my family. I had a house, but foreclosed because of teacher layoffs. I finally got back on my feet and have been looking to buy again. All I can afford is either foreclosures or fixer-uppers. I love how people think teachers make a lot of money and have summers off. I do not think that it true for any teacher in this state. Please stop the ignorance and start looking at who is really soaking up the money in the school districts, the overpaid higher ups.

Well NJMOM i dont know what the state does with all that tax $ that goes to the schools and i know enough teachers that are doing quite well and disappear a good portion of the summer..Only reporting on what I see...damn my taxes are high... what do I know...Just raise the taxes LOL

March 20th

NJMOM, you should be apologized to...

Spreadsheets shmedsheets, blah blah blah.

I like everyone else on this thread lives in this lovely state of NJ. Lets face it property taxes are through the roof. I live in Hackettstown and my property taxes are way wicked high. The property tax rate in New Jersey is still the highest compared to the rest of the country. This is a fact.

Couple that with the gas tax, the price of houses, and the coming "rain tax" ect , ect, ect. on and on and on. Bottom line.. this is a tough state to live.

The "tax the millionaire" plan is a disaster because many of them are moving out of the state, so guess who gets taxed ? The middle class as always.

I am grateful that I can afford the house I live in. I'm not sure how a young couple with children can afford live here in NJ let alone buy a decent home.

Location is a big factor in value. Anywhere near the city, like Fort Lee can’t touch anything under $600k, except a small condo...and the maintenance? WOW! Taxes? Double wow! Morristown, Madison and Basking Ridge is also untouchable for middle class, except a condo. My “kids” have been commuting too far, too long. With rent, it’s very difficult to get a large down payment together. I suggested living home, rent free or a room, so they could start saving. They’d rather blow $2k a month than listen to a parent!

Guilty-Remnant Guilty-Remnant
March 20th

Yeah, I realize spreadsheets are difficult for some.....sorry to offend. Facts are not your friends apparently.

StrangerDanger StrangerDanger
March 20th

NJMOM, your pension and retirement medical to come paid via the taxpayers will afford you a very nice retirement compared to the average Warren County resident that may have to work until 70 and then be on the poor-track until death or just work to death.

Not this average Warren county resident nor his Warren County friends

StrangerDanger StrangerDanger
March 20th

Remember when buying a home was your biggest investment? Well look at the pricing and taxes, what a shame, but I can see rentals are up , a good choice now days!

iJay, you mean the pension that I pay for so the people who retired years ago and didn't pay into the pension system, can get their pension and health benefits. I also cannot retire until I am 65, but I doubt I will be able to retire then either.
You do understand that teachers only bring home around 60% of their actual pay, because of taxes, pension, health insurance, disability insurance, union dues, etc. There are no bonuses, no perks, no 401K, etc.
I am a teacher and I love my job. I went into this profession because I care about children and I want to help them grow. If it wasn't for teachers, would you be where you are today? The saddest realization is that in the USA, teachers are the most disrespected profession. In other countries, they are the most respected profession.

I don't think teachers are disrespected.

I think teachers have no idea how good they have it, yes even with long hours and stress.

There are plenty of other jobs that have long hours, stress, with less pay, little if any benefits- many not in a warm/cool dry clean room...many on their feet all day long, or coming home routinely with cuts, blisters or bruises. No tenure, no pension, no vacation, etc.

Thank you for wanting to help kids. Just understand that your pay, and that of the the school system in general is forcibly robbed from people that may not agree with how the money is spent. It is understandable those people are upset when money they could spend on their own kids, house, food etc is instead taken and given to others instead.

Is it that teachers have it so good?


That others don't and therefore are envious of anyone they can target?

Since when is a fair salary and good benefits something to be disdained...….

Public information is a wonderful thing. You think you own them since you feel you foot the bill and you can see the costs right in front of your face? If you think teachers are swimming in gravy, you should catch a look at my act! You'd be screaming for socialism after that...… And guess who is actually footing my bill ----- it's you :>(

Thank you for your support, my generous salary, my 401, my pension, those great options for selling over the top, and all the other perks you have funded on my behalf.

Point is instead of worrying about who's stealing your cheese, maybe you should just find your own......

strangerdanger strangerdanger
March 21st

NJMOM try working in the private sector. My health insurance at my current job costs double of what it did at my last job. They don't match 401K. Every year insurance goes up and I haven't seen a raise in 4 years. Other people here that were around longer have gone 6 or 7 years without a raise. Sure I could go look for another job but if I do that it'll be out of this crappy run state.

Metsman Metsman
March 21st

Very true, SD.

I've worked in IT in the financial world for 35+ years, the last 25 with Wall St. firms. I make a excellent salary, I get a decent bonus, my 401K is well funded, I own my home, got a great investment portfolio.

But please one gave me anything. I put myself through college, worked my ass off, put in the hours and I had a little luck. (Luck defined as: I was willing and able to take advantage of opportunities that came my way).

Go ahead, be envious, but not of what I've earned. If you find something that was given to me, you can envy that.

walleyed walleyed
March 21st

I grew up in rural NC, and as an adult I have lived in Charlotte, NC; rural PA, downtown Lancaster, PA; Maplewood, NJ; and now Hackettstown. There is one constant among all those places: everyone complains about how much tax they pay and how it is spent.

My mom* was complaining to me on the phone last summer because her property taxes (in the aforementioned rural NC) for the coming YEAR were --for the first time-- going to exceed $800. That is not a typo.

*Speaking of my mom, she was a teacher. Perhaps I'm biased by that, but I'm always appalled at how people disparage teachers with regard to their pay. Of course everyone is entitled to their own opinion, but I can't think of a more important issue than education or a more important job than teaching. Especially in the public schools. It should be the biggest line item in every budget, at every level. If I could earmark my tax dollars, I'd put about 90% toward education. And I don't even have kids

True Josh....true!

March 21st

Well, the money needs to be spent differently, too, but that's yet another tangent.

CH- You cannot compare us to other countries because they do not educate or assess students with special needs. In other countries, parents pay for education outside of the school day/year. Education is more important in other countries than it seems to be in this country. If you got the money, you can get your kid in anywhere, lol.

For those complaining about teachers it is a free country.If you want what they have go to school, get your certs and teach. The opportunity is open to all!

My former Anatomy & Physiology II proffesor with a doctorate had to teach at two different colleges just to make ends meet. He told me that he tried for years to get a full time teaching position in many colleges and universities.

However, this thread is not about teachers, is it? I thought it was about homes in the area not selling?

Positive Positive
March 21st

Re: Homes not Selling

This one on college view was gone in 10 days. Priced right i guess.

Looks fairly tasty for the neighborhood. You can use address and look up tax appraisel for comparison. Or comparable sales, should be some right there.

StrangerDanger StrangerDanger
March 21st

Sorry NJMOM, but your contribution level does not nearly cover the pension and retiree medical; this is a fact.

Vets are the ones that truly get screwed !

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