Ordnance detonation, Port Authority NYC
To anyone commuting in by bus or going to midtown there was an explosion at the port authority
[AM NY]( https://www.amny.com/news/explosion-port-authority-1.15412810) is reporting that the NYPD says the suspect was injured, but there were no other injuries reported.
Skippy Finally heard back from family that pass through Port Authority every day - chaotic and stressed out but okay, thankfully.
Some other minor injuries are reported.
trekster3~ My wife went thru there not long before the explosion. Have to get her out of NYC (her job).
Have to eradicate the islamic extremists like the cockroach virus they are. POS
JeffersonRepub 
Birdie C'mon folks, surely we can make more assumptions! After all, that's what we do these days, so don't hold back!!!
justintime 
strangerdanger Hey JIT, you know full well that assumption is correct 99% of the time. Recent history has shown it.
"Akayed Ullah, 27, set off the "effectively low tech device" in a subway passageway just before 7:30 a.m., New York Gov. Andrew Cuomo said in a news conference. Ullah suffered burns and wounds to his body and appeared to be the only person seriously injured in the pipe bomb explosion, authorities said. At least three other people suffered injuries that were not life threatening."
"New York City Mayor Bill de Blasio said: "This was attempted terrorist attack," adding that there was no additional threat at this time.
Ullah's attack was inspired by ISIS, law enforcement sources told The New York Post. "
"If the attack is confirmed to be ISIS-inspired, it would be the second ISIS-inspired attack in New York City in less than two months. An Oct. 31 terror attack killed eight people and injured 11 others after a man drove a rented truck into people walking and cycling on a bike path in Lower Manhattan."
Oh come on, be fair now. The white identify terrorists only shoot people, not blow them up. And yeah, almost constantly. Are we up to one a day yet?
alpha1beta This is true. They only kill at churches, schools and country music concerts. I stand corrected.
Biggest blow will be the blow to productivity.
Imagine the costs of this.
Law enforcement, jails, attorneys, psychologist, trials, overtime. Taxes baby, taxes.
Add the employees late to work, missed flights,appointments and deals.
Interruption of barely working mass transit.
Hours of law makers in session tying to come up with a solution while accomplishing nothing (ok, I admit this happens anyway so let's forget this one)
Very expensive ordeal.
Dodgeball 
Botheredbyuu2 
Rebecka "The white identify terrorists only shoot people, not blow them up. "
Are you talking about Las Vegas? To my knowledge, no motive has yet been established. In fact, there's a big fat ZERO on the info we know on that one.
As for the guy in Texas, no link with white supremacy has been provided, except in tweets by a college professor who got fired for it.
The guy in SC was a white supremacist. He killed 9 people. What is the terrorists' tally so far, since 9-11? (the guy at Halloween killed 8)
Now now JR, you know as well as anyone that our news is intentionally sensationalized. There's nothing wrong with waiting for an investigation, is there? Or do you prefer immediate, knee-jerk information that changes 99% of the time as further details emerge?
Oh, I have no problem "waiting". But I can tell you what the answer is going to be, 99% of the time. Stereotypes ACTUALLY COME FROM SOMEWHERE, they aren't made up out of whole cloth.
Besides... I didn't jump the gun, I'm acting on info from law enforcement sources, as quoted above.
Video of the evil jackass blowing himself up:
https://nypost.com/2017/12/11/video-captures-suspect-setting-off-bomb-in-bus-terminal/
Hmmm another one ended up blowing himself up. Maybe we have been going about this all wrong. Instead of trying to stop them, We should make explosives available to them with bad components and let them wipe themselves out. Yeah, that's the ticket.
Boobalaa 
Denis Perfect, Denis.
More travel bans are needed. Thank you, President Trump. This muslime came here 8 years ago, thanx Barack Hussein, not!
JennyM 
Blackcat 
scottso Are you people actually being critical of JR for saying - "Have to eradicate the islamic extremists like the cockroach virus they are"? Why? Because he singled out these MUSLIM scumbags? Some you folks have very short memories. If you think this is ending anytime soon, you're nuts. I'm with JR - they need to be eliminated from this earth.
What a surpriseJust curious, What a Surprise, but did you read the reason given to the police for the attack?
I’ve read many different reports. What’s your point? Are you really trying to suggest he was motivated by something other than his radical Islamic ideaology?
"He chose the location because of its Christmas-themed posters, recalling strikes in Europe against Christmas markets, he told investigators, and set off his bomb in retaliation for U.S. airstrikes on ISIS targets in Syria and elsewhere, several law enforcement officials said."
"The alleged Port Authority bomber spent an hour spilling his guts to investigators at Bellevue Hospital on Monday — saying he picked the specific hallway because of Christmas posters and that he was avenging violence against Muslims around the world, law enforcement sources said.
Akayed Ullah mentioned President Trump and past administrations during the grilling, and said his anger was fueled by decades of anti-Muslim bloodshed in Gaza, Syria and Iraq.
Ullah, a Bangladeshi immigrant, said the attack was specifically inspired by ISIS — “not Al-Qaeda” — and also mentioned seeing Christmas posters before detonating the device in the underground tunnel between the bustling bus depot and the Times Square subway.
The seasonal imagery set him off — inspiring him to follow ISIS Christmas threats, NBC reports.
ISIS propaganda released just weeks ago features a picture of Santa Claus in Times Square next to explosives and the phrase “We meet at Christmas in New York . . . soon,” according to terror watchdog group Site Intel.
An Islamic State militant also drove a truck into a Berlin Christmas market last year, killing 12 and injuring 56."
"The suspect ( Muslim ) in the New York City subway blast Monday told investigators he detonated a crude bomb after he spotted a holiday display ( not Muslim ) and did it in the name of ISIS ( Muslim terrorist group )to avenge the deaths of Muslims around the world, law enforcement officials said."
Translation As a Muslim, I came to kill innocent civilians in the name of an Islamist terrorist organization who kill and terrorize all over the world. Done in the name of vengeance.
Funny, that's pretty specific, having all the right trigger and buzz words to satiate hatred.
Btw, the version I had read was about revenge for attacks in Gaza, for the bombings done by the Israelis. Religious in nature, of course, but specifically stated as revenge.
See, that's the thing about hate: once it starts the brain turns off and nothing else matters. Regardless of which side you're on.
Specific, and correct in every detail. Buzz words = detail facts.
"saying he picked the specific hallway because of Christmas posters and that he was avenging violence against Muslims around the world
Let me know when Christians start blowing themselves up to kill innocent people in the name of Christianity,
Blackcat -- same here. My husband was actually in Port Authority about 100 yards away from the blast when it happened. But he didn't even know anything happened as he did not hear it go off. As he went up to the street and people started running up to the street yelling "run, a bomb went off" only then did he know something happened. He was afraid of being trampled by people and ran down the block going south.
So this dirtbag --- even after planning for a year to do this -- was such a stupid lame piece of $hit that he couldn't even kill himself much less anyone else.
Glad for that. His IQ is probably 20.
@Yesimpc Wrong, more to follow on both sides? When is the last time there was a Christian terrorist attack?? The Vegas shooting had zero to do with religion.
These individuals need to be taken out to sea and fed to the sharks after interrogation,
Filming it for the "others that will follow" , and they are aware of their fate,
Steven JIT, I'm still not sure what your point is. Let's go with what you read as to why he did it. That does not change the fact that he is an islamic extremist. That is the common denominator. If you're not willing to agree / accept this simple premise, then you're just fooling yourself.
It's not about hate, not on our side- it's about killing before being killed. It's self-protection. I've stated it a hundred times: I no longer care WHY they are doing what they are doing. Revenge for bombings in Gaza by the Israelis??? Then perhaps they should go to Israel and try to kill Israelis. I'm not going to play the "what came first, the chicken or the egg?" game... they are on a worldwide mission to cleanse the earth of everyone and everything not Muslim. They are a disease that must be eradicated, much like the Nazis were.
And Denis also is repeating something I have been saying for years: let me know when Christians, IN THE NAME OF THE CHRISTIAN GOD, start killing people en masse. And if anyone brings up "abortion clinic bombings", I'll come get you and drive you to Bellvue myself, because you need your head examined. We've been over that one ad museum.
Now, where JIT is coming from, I think, is the Ron Paul theory: "just leave everyone else alone and they will leave you alone." That might have worked BEFORE all this started, but it's WAY too late for that now. The Islamic Jihad has turned into something much bigger than "we're going to kill Americans because they kill us (because we persecute all other people anyway)". It has turned into a worldwide jihad to cleanse the earth of all things not extremist Muslim, and it must be stopped.
I they stopped trying to kill us, (and if they stopped trying to kill EVERYBODY- Christians being especially persecuted in areas of the middle east) maybe we could stop trying to kill them.
I won't argue the fact that war isn't "good business"... it is, for those connected to it. And it's a damn shame. But unfortunately, that's what we've got to deal with- wouldn't have mattered if Trump or Hillary won, we'd still be in this war. IDK how to fix that one, since the system is so corrupt, I don't see a way of changing it. You can sit there and be ideological all you want (we should just leave everyone alone, pull out troops out, open the borders, "be nice"), but all that will do is get more people killed. That tact worked great for Chamberlain, didn't it? This has been escalated for years now to the point that PRACTICALITY- not ideaology- is required. Protect the American people, put an end to the plague of Islamic extremism. We could do it if we WANTED to- if we got rid of the Third Reich we sure as hell can get rid of the goat f^&kers in the sandpile over in the middle east. But we have to DO it. Stop wasting money and playing games. The only way you win a war is to WIN it- make the other side yield. Period. That's how the Muslims are fighting, it's how WE should be fighting. Overwhelming force.
It's not time for Chamberlain. It's time for Churchill. We can't change their ideology- only THEY can do that. But in the meantime, PROTECT others and ourselves, and terminate every threat you find. Clean house.
Steven, The bad part is they all seem to be willing to die for their views, so any death or punishment does not seem to phase them....when they are caught alive, they laugh about it.
Darrin 
"Steven, The bad part is they all seem to be willing to die for their views, so any death or punishment does not seem to phase them....when they are caught alive, they laugh about it."
Then we should kill them.
Yes, "he" is. One. An individual.
Are there more? Surely.
But my initial and subsequent comments were all directed toward those who immediately took out the broad brush and, whether intentionally or not, used it to paint *many* multiples of millions of people in a way that simply is not true.
And Denis, look up The Crusades. Extremists come in all flavors.
"But my initial and subsequent comments were all directed toward those who immediately took out the broad brush and, whether intentionally or not, used it to paint *many* multiples of millions of people in a way that simply is not true."
Not sure who you are referring to, but it's certainly not me... as I always specify Islamic EXTREMISTS. Which is any Muslim who thinks the planet must be Muslim and is willing to attempt to achieve that by force and terror.
As for the Crusades, let's have a look...
(don't forget, JIT- narrative isn't only used in news, but also in HISTORY)
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=I_To-cV94Bo
JIT, your type of misguided thinking is part of the reason we are in the position we find ourselves today. If you think the classification of Islamic extremist is limited to the Muslims that actually carry out these acts - you are very wrong!
Misguided? Perhaps in your eyes, but attempting to understand the rational of those attacking doesn't seem misguided to me. Seem that is what everyone should be doing.
In this case, the stated reason was for revenge against attacks in the Middle East. In case you've been living under a rock for the past 15 years, there's a certain validity to that view, especially if your roots are there. All it takes is the simple act of asking yourself what would you do if you were in "their" shoes. For instance:
https://www.thenation.com/article/for-the-15-years-since-911-the-us-has-waged-an-endless-campaign-of-violence-in-the-middle-east/
Re:Afghanistan as an example:
"If you really want to experience shock and awe, however, think about this: Almost 15 years have passed, and that air war has never ended. In Afghanistan, for instance, in just the first four years of the Obama administration (2009–12), more than 18,000 munitions were released over the country."
Mind you, im not making excuses for the behavior, just being realistic and trying to understand the stated reasons for the terroristic action. Btw, even BinLaden had written that a reason for wanting to attack the US is because we'd been over their meddling and ineterfering for decades, but strangely that fact had been dismissed (not enough of an emotional trigger I'd think) in favor of using extremist religious beliefs as the primary cause.
So he's attacking us because Israel attacked them, and Israel attacked them because the Palestinians attacked Israel....... what came first, the chicken or the egg? Want to go back to 1948? Why stop there? Let's go back even further. Hey, let's go ALL the way back to the beginnings of Islam... which POST-date the Judeo-Christian religion and God. Therefore, the Judeo-Christian God was "here first", therefore, they "win."
I mean, seriously.... this has gone so far beyond "he attacked/because they attacked", global jihad is not a one-for-one, eye-for-an-eye, revenge model anymore. It's an ideology. Ingrained in generations. "who started it" is irrelevant at this point. Who ENDS it is all that matters.
"Overwhelming force.
It's not time for Chamberlain. It's time for Churchill. We can't change their ideology- only THEY can do that. But in the meantime, PROTECT others and ourselves, and terminate every threat you find. Clean house."
What exactly are you calling for here? Which country? Everyone in it? Even Churchill didn't clean house although he left us little memories like Dresden, unnecessary, messy, and not war shortening.
I agree with wipe em out, doubtful there's rehabilitation, but you have to find them, avoid innocents, and ultimately stop the process that creates them. That is very difficult and requires different fixes to stop recruitment from say, Saudi Arabia versus Bangladesh.
What I call for is common sense gun laws, pay down the debt, pay for the wars, raise taxes (especially on the rich), end loopholes, and then take what's left to hunt them down BUT also put pressure on places ilke SArabia who's culture, church and state structure, and economy create these sub-humans to begin with.
"So punish the law abiding and successful - awesome plan"
Are you talking about the Vegas guy again? You know ---- law abiding, successful, awesome planner?
Probably should move back to the travel ban portion of the discussion.....
"What I call for is common sense gun laws"
What does this have anything...anything at ALL to do with these terror attacks?
Have any of them used guns?
Did I miss something?
MB Yea a shooting that could have been avoided if the FBI actually went after the guy when he was trying to get body armor.
Metsman Nothing at all Darrin. It just struck me that being xmas, a time for wishes to come true.
Apparently it was both. It provided a double target: Americans AND GAYS, which of course they hate... they throw them off buildings.
@JIT "And Denis, look up The Crusades. Extremists come in all flavors."
I think you need to look up the crusades. They began in response to the repeated murder, rape and and pillaging directed at Christians by Muslims. Regardless you are bringing up an event that happened in 1095 and trying to make it relevant to today. Most religions and cultures evolve, some are stuck in the dark ages.
Well I guess it depends on how you look at it.
Some 8-year immigrant Bangladeshi Muslim bastard builds a bad bomb and hurts himself and we are all in a panic, over 50 entries in 24 hours blaming the entire religion, Obama (dropping his last name to make it "more Muslim"), and Afghanistan.
A total of 45 entries for the Vegas shooting, the conclusion being: shucks, stuff happens but don't blame the tool.
How about: "But when it comes to extremist violence perpetrated by refugees, the numbers are unequivocal. In the four decades between 1975 and 2015, only 20 individuals who arrived in the U.S. as refugees either attempted or carried out a terrorist attack – resulting in three deaths. And, of most relevance to President Donald Trump’s proposed immigration ban, all three of those killings were perpetrated by anti-Castro refugees.
Not a single death has resulted from terrorist activity by a Muslim extremist refugee."
Depends how you look at it: https://www.snopes.com/2017/06/07/threat-extremists-more/
Think Donald Trump or anyone he knows rides the subway? Sure, go back to work, get about your day, keep telling us to be brave......Nice being surrounded by the boys in black 24x7. The rest of us are ponying up for cab fare.
Why don't you look at all the acts by "innocent " refugees in Europe, Stranger?
Let's try and avoid that here, thank you very much. More travel bans against all muslim countries and deport the ones already here.
"Some 8-year immigrant Bangladeshi Muslim bastard builds a bad bomb and hurts himself and we are all in a panic,"
...only because he was apparently too inept to build a bomb that detonated the main charge; if that bomb had worked as planned, he could have killed and injured many. WE LUCKED OUT because the guy was inept.
[I should say here that this is conjecture, but by a bomb expert who watched the video; he said the charge that went off was so small it had to be the "detonating charge"- the smaller charge (like a blasting cap, shotgun shell, or something) that was supposed to detonate the main charge, but in this case, for some reason, didn't. Which would explain why he was the only one seriously injured.]
"Why don't you look at all the acts by "innocent " refugees in Europe, Stranger?
Let's try and avoid that here, thank you very much."
+1000, I've been saying this for a long time.
Yea exactly lets ignore what going on in Europe and bring it here... sounds like a solid plan... The immigration policy that brought this guy here is a joke. He basically was allowed in because he had a relative here. Was he properly vetted? Probably not. But that's the golden ticket the Democrats want to keep giving out. Lets keep letting illegals come in and hide them in sanctuary cities and states. Now lets let extremists in so that down the road they can get organized here and level a city block... What kind of country are we handing over to future generations...
SD "Don't blame the tool"..... correct....I have always said blame the person who chose to do it.....
wait...religion is a tool? were you trying to prove that as a point?
Didn't work
Let's not forget Timothy McVeigh and Terry Nichols, who, while not directly associated with a far Right Christian Group, did claim "Ruby Ridge" and "Waco" (Branch Davidian Church debacle) as part of their "reasoning".
Eric Robert Rudolph, also currently in Supermax is responsible for a number of "Army of God" bombings, including abortion and women's health clinics, a gay bar and of course the infamous Centennial Olympic Park, claimed to be due to his outrage over legal abortion.
A more complete account of all terroristic attacks in the United States, may be found at:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Terrorism_in_the_United_States
Phil D. I seem to recall a little over a month ago another Muslim managed to kill 8 people with a truck in NYC in the name of Islam, but nothing to do with their religion, yeah ok!
@phil D. quite the stretch, McVeigh, and Nichols attack had nothing to do with Christianity, and the best you could come up with is one individual that acted over a decade ago. Hardly comparable.
Therefore, the Judeo-Christian God was "here first", therefore, they "win."
you do realise the God in the Qur'an is the same God in the Hebrew and Christian bibles.
CBGB "you do realise the God in the Qur'an is the same God in the Hebrew and Christian bibles." What's your point?
Hey Phil, any time you want to compare total death tolls (so we can properly gauge the URGENCY of each of these concerns), let me know.
PS- I don't think you want to.
"Therefore, the Judeo-Christian God was "here first", therefore, they "win."
you do realise the God in the Qur'an is the same God in the Hebrew and Christian bibles."
Of course. However, the Christian God (and his son) and his teachings are not the same as the the (later) Muslim God and his teachings.... hmm.... conundrum...
Besides, "you do realize" when I said that, I was trying to make a point. I wasn't actually saying the Judeo-Christian God "came first" and therefore wins, its part of demonstrating the folly of the "who started it?" argument of Islamic Jihadism, and why they are doing it.
BTW Phil.
11 people died in abortion bombings/shootings. 11.
How many died on 9-11 again?
2974. And that's just from the initial attack, not the ones who died later from complications of breathing the dust.
And that's just on US soil. In the middle east, the jihadis are committing genocide, much like the Nazis did in WWII.
Denis
I'm just pointing out that there were and are widely varied groups of people who have been responsible for terroristic attacks in the United States. McVeigh & Nichols, as I stated, claimed they hated the government for "overreaching" in the case of "Ruby Ridge" (White Separatist) and the "Waco" Branch Davidian Christian religious "cult". I did say they weren't directly associated with any particular religious or other group.
Apparently you didn't read my link, especially the "Recent Trends" section which states:
"A 2017 report by The Nation Institute and Center for Investigative Reporting looked at the terrorist incidents in the US between 2008 and 2016.[5] It found:[6]
115 right-wing inspired terror incidents. 35% of these were foiled (meaning no attack happened) and 29% resulted in fatalities. These terror incidents caused 79 deaths.
63 Islamist inspired terror incidents. 76% of these were foiled (meaning no attack happened) and 13% resulted in fatalities. These terror incidents caused 90 deaths.
19 incidents inspired by left-wing ideologies (including eco-terrorism). 20% of these were foiled (meaning no attack happened) and 10% resulted in fatalities. These terror incidents caused 7 deaths."
From my Wikipedia link. The Islamic Exremists have an 11 fatality edge during the years of the study only (2008-2016, aka the Obama years, if you will), 90 to 79 with the Left wingers coming in a distant 3rd at 7.
JR
Obviously because of the Sept. 11 attacks the overall count is much higher. That also was while we were more naive and thought nothing like that could happen here, apparently forgetting the lessons of the past that should have been remembered. I'm not trying to debate anyone on that account. I'm just trying to state that "They", aka Islamic Extremists are not the only ones that have us all in their sights and to believe that they are and to blame them solely is disingenuous.
For us to blame all Muslims for all terrorism is akin to the extremist groups blaming all of "us" as fomenting a new "Crusade" against them on a continuous basis since the original Crusades.
As CBGB put it, all three religions, Judaism, Christianity and Islam do share the same single god, but have differing names for that entity. The main difference is in each's take on Jesus. The Jews (mostly, except the "Jews for Jesus" group),state that he was a historic figure, but was not the "savior", nor "Son of God" and they're still waiting for their "savior", though one group feels that he was here in the 20th Century. Of course the so-called "Christian" groups believe that yes, not only was Jesus the "savior", but that he was also the "Son of God". If only many of the Christian groups would follow what he taught, rather than a mixture of both Old and New Testaments to rationalize their hatred towards others, it would be a nice step forward too. Islam, who shares the same one God, that of "Abraham" believes that Jesus was a Prophet, as was Mohammed and that Jesus was neither a savior of mankind, nor the "Son of God", which in itself is similar to what the Jews believe in that respect. They also share very similar dietary restrictions. I just thought I'd expand on what CBGB stated, while putting it in a basic manner.
Domestic terrorism by radical Islam:
1993 WTC bombing - Primary cause US support for Israel
2001 WTC demolishment - Primary cause US support for Israel
Support for the Apartheid state of Israel is too costly.
iJay @phil D. No I didn't read your link, and I never heard of The Nation Institute and Center for Investigative Reporting. I can site 3 Islamist terrorist attacks off the top of my head using your time frame 2008 that resulted in 70 fatalities without relying on some third party internet source with questionable information. Pulse, Ft. Hood, NYC truck. Can you do the same.
"The main difference is in each's take on Jesus" You could not be more wrong! The main difference is the teachings of the people followed by these religions. Jesus,and Mohammed have very different ideologies. One teached turn the other cheek, the other teached kill the infidel.
Make the entire country side arm carry for those that have the proper credentials....the herd will be controlled.
If that were true about support for Israel, why are the muslims carrying out so much terror in the U.K., and France especially? Not to mention other European countries.
No, the muslim ideology is the equal hatred for ALL non-muslims. The hatred of Israel is just one of many excuses.
"For us to blame all Muslims for all terrorism"
I'm not doing that. I know muslims who have no interest in killing us.
But you cannot draw a moral equivalency between 11 deaths at abortion clinics to the HUNDREDS OF THOUSANDS killed worldwide by Jihad. And that's just recently. Do a little digging to read about the havoc being wrought by the “refugees” in european nations. There’s a reason Poland is rising up against such danger.
Last 30 days:
https://www.thereligionofpeace.com/attacks/attacks.aspx?Yr=Last30
"During this time period, there were 99 Islamic attacks in 19 countries, in which 1587 people were killed and 958 injured."
Terrorsim in the US SINCE 9-11 (95 killed so far):
https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/2017/nov/01/america-since-911-terrorist-attacks-linked-to-the-war-on-terror
http://dailycaller.com/2017/12/11/family-of-alleged-port-authority-terrorist-outraged-over-police-behavior/
Lol his family is outraged over police behavior
Denis
Since you won't even read any of what I'm sure you consider "false news", then you won't also check out the many links to news stories, etc. that are footnoted at the bottom. Attacks by mostly white, male Americans never gain the "traction" in the news than the ones by Islamic Extremists, partly because it sells more newspapers, etc. to "white" America. They are more "sensational" in nature and get a "gut" reaction which is what the news outlets and hatemongers are looking for, more ad revenue or donations and readers or people looking up their "cause".
It's highly unlikely you'll check these links out either, but I encourage others check them out. I'm NOT including the Huffington Post links, since I'm sure that's considered "fake news" as well, even when bolstered by studies and statistics.
http://www.factcheck.org/2017/03/refugees-and-terrorism-investigations/
https://object.cato.org/sites/cato.org/files/pubs/pdf/pa798_2.pdf
https://www.globalresearch.ca/non-muslims-carried-out-more-than-90-of-all-terrorist-attacks-in-america/5333619
http://www.politifact.com/truth-o-meter/article/2017/aug/16/look-data-domestic-terrorism-and-whos-behind-it/
The ideologies of each religion are based mainly on the basic difference as I set them out. Rather than focus on what they mostly believe together and work together towards peacefully coexisting with one another, allowing each to practice their own religion as long as it brings no others to harm, (as one of the underlying principles this Nation was founded upon) too many see only that which divides us and the relative lower percentage in each religion that only wishes "violence and retribution" in the name of the "God" they all share. Check the statistics.
I take it you purport to be one of the many varieties of Christian, or am I wrong in that assumption?
JennyM, I am talking about domestic terrorism in the USA. The 911 commission report does not have one sentence on US support for Israel being a cause. France and the UK have sizable Muslim communities that honestly want to take over. If we were to get more Muslims the results would probably be similar.
Attacks by mostly white, male Americans never gain the "traction" in the news. Absolute rubbish, I gave you 3 examples since 2008 without someone else's links 70+ dead, I challenge you to do the same.
"Rather than focus on what they mostly believe together and work together towards peacefully coexisting with one another". You can't do that if large percentages of one religion believe in Sharia law above all else, that non believers are second class citizens at best. Even our so called ally Saudi Arabia will arrest you should you dare bring a bible into their country. You could even be killed. It takes 2 willing sides to coexist.
Your assumption about me purporting to being one of the many varieties of Christian is also false, I am as anyone who knows me will attest an agnostic. Have been for decades.
"allowing each to practice their own religion as long as it brings no others to harm,"
You know that's the catch, right? Right?
Like I said; depends how you look at it. Denis can see Muslims but can’t see white guys for the trees.
When you look at white supremacy mass murder, far right extremist terrorism, refugee mass murder, against muslim terrorism, the muslim death count is low but ascending. See my links above. We’re all killing each other.
Banning isnt doing it. No terrorist would have been wall blocked. No one is against better vetting, you’ve had a year, get on with it. Better yet, tou should have vetted backwards and caught this guy.
Quit blaming Obama and fix it, its your watch. Some law and order crowd.
"Quit blaming Obama and fix it, its your watch. Some law and order crowd."
Agree with that, to some extent. But the president can't make everything happen on his own. His promises have to be carried out by a soft GOP who doesn't want him there, and if the dems gain control of either house, it'll be a blockfest. And we'll be right back where we started.
I'm glad to at least hear you seem to be as angry about this stuff as alot of us, SD.
"But the president can't make everything happen on his own." Yet, like Obama, at some point you have to admit the man has a few shortcomings. After a year of no pivot, no change, and an ever bar lowering series of public service announcements, I think we can assume it is what it is.
I am so glad you are "glad to at least hear you seem to be as angry about this stuff" although not sure why you missed it over the years. My issue is with implementation so I do push back at the concept of "we sure as hell can get rid of the goat f^&kers in the sandpile over in the middle east. But we have to DO it. Stop wasting money and playing games. The only way you win a war is to WIN it- make the other side yield. Period. That's how the Muslims are fighting, it's how WE should be fighting. Overwhelming force" because clearly that no only won't eradicate the problem but will just expand it UNLESS you are willing to go for extinction.
Thus, Mr. Trump's concept to double down, increase troop strength and do exactly what you want to do in Afghanistan will just result in creating more terrorists across the globe and sending more kids home in body bags. He said we shouldn't be there, he said he would leave, Obama started the process, why oh why are we going for a do-over there? Again?
Overwhelming force will just get the ball rolling Jr. It destroys the infrastructure, topples all govts, and then you have what's left. You do not have the hearts and minds of a mixed population of haters and innocent survivors. We need to continue our program of slow, steady, identification and eradication of these sub-humans with the least amount of innocent casualties as possible. It's slow, it's painful, and there are repercussions like these inspired a$$wipes.
Banning all Muslims is not only impossible but will shrink our economy as we stop dealing with more and more of the world. Building a wall does nothing for this. Extreme vetting ---- bring it on, make it legal. Start with folks who came over 8 years ago.... He's had a year, he's had numerous attacks, perhaps he should get started.
"Why don't you look at all the acts by "innocent " refugees in Europe, Stranger?" That's "Mr. Danger" to you :>) Why would I look at "innocent" refugees in Europe? You do know there's a number of salient differences between Europe and America in this regard, don't you? First, they are reachable by the refugees, they can literally walk there. Walk to America is a little harder. Second, once you enter Euro, you can cross borders no problem, so the security at the edge for each country is the security in the middle. Kinda of like being in the US with each state having different immigration policies and security. Third, Euro is far worse than America at assimilation of immigrants --- they still favor ghettos and the like. Breeds frustration. Fourth, Euro is very bad at sharing intel across borders. We share our intel across states and are getting better at sharing intel across borders and organizations. So, if you are saying that Europe's refugee problem is an example for the US, I say we have already covered that.....And last I heard, Trump is handling the rest.
"Muslims need to be eradicated. There's no other answer." Stranger is the danger that this person thinks just like ISIS. I bet they are of the Christian faith. Stop that, it's not Christian!
SD you realize this guy came in during Obama's watch right? So technically it is Obama's fault. You can blame Trump when people come in from 2017 and on.
How about I refer to you as "Danger" because your messed up, arguing for the sake of arguing and liberal thinking is far too dangerous for our society?
I'm not going to split hairs between muslim refugees in Europe or the ones here, or whether or not they are refugees. As time has shown and proven they are a danger, a very real danger.
SD....if the Vegas shooter shouted "This is for God!" as he shot, it could be viewed a Christian/religious issue....but he did not and instead was viewed as a deranged man. In comparison, these foreign terrorists almost always shout "Allah Akbar" when committing the acts, therefore make it religions.
"As time has shown and proven they are a danger, a very real danger."
Define "they". Who, precisely, is it that will be on the receiving end of our ire?
A clear and concise answer would go a long way with respect to this discussion.
Justintime, if you choose to be deliberately ignorant, that's very unfortunate. I think I made it very clear who "they" are.
That wasn't very clear, or concise. Please, help us to understand what solution it is that you are proposing.
"How about I refer to you as "Danger" because your messed up, arguing for the sake of arguing and liberal thinking is far too dangerous for our society?" Can we try this one more time, this time try English.....
Mets, of course I realize that Obama was President eight years ago. It's the dream before my current nightmare. My point was IF Obama's vetting is insufficient, or other immigration policies are in neglect, then fix it. Trump claimed protection of the US was job one and extreme vetting was the order of the day because everyone else was stupid and only Trump could remedy the situation. If that was the case, don't you think the first people to test the BRAND NEW TRUMP EXTREME VETTING PROGRAM on would be those who came here in the last decade or so. We're still waiting and don't feel safer than under Obama, IMO. "That's SD's specialty. He likes to spin things." You think that was spin? Show us the spin. You just like to say: spin. Spin.
"SD....if the Vegas shooter shouted "This is for God!" as he shot, it could be viewed a Christian/religious issue....but he did not and instead was viewed as a deranged man. In comparison, these foreign terrorists almost always shout "Allah Akbar" when committing the acts, therefore make it religions." I like disturbed. He believes everything he hears, especially from the deranged :>) If you think any of these acts are religious, I think you don't understand religion. These are brutal thugs who would be killing something, somehow, somewhere whether we were masters of the free world or not. They would be killing someone with or without the Muslim faith for their false legitimacy.
JIT --- +1 --- go figure :>)
JennyM (not necessarily pictured) believes that all 2 billion Muslims are dangerous terrorists. JennyM suggests a genocide ten times worse than the worse genocide that I can think of. JennyM doesn't have a clue.
Radical Islam is a global problem. We do need to squash the ideology. Won't be easy.
I would say putting a travel ban on certain countries that don't have proper vetting systems and doing away with immigration lotteries and such is a step towards making it better.
Haha! You're so funny CBGB...not. But I support President Trump's policies. You know he declared Jerusalem Israel's capital, supports gun ownership unlike Hitler who hated Jews, gays, gun ownership. Say, who does that sound like? Why muslims, that's who and an awful lot of today's liberals( except for the gay part) so I will just accept that's you're self portrait.
and you hate Muslims
Trump calling for it doesn't make it so and is just another reason to hate Americans.
Once again SD the American infidel is going to clarify for everyone that the Muslims who were brought up in Muslim countries, and in the faith of Islam, and carry out these acts in the name of Islam, and want to establish an Islamic caliphate aren't really true Muslims, and this has nothing to do with their religion. By his logic the Nazi's would have been just thugs who would have been killing people anyhow without their warped ideology to lead them down the path of evil.
no surprise that you did not read what I posted
Radical Islam is a global problem. We do need to squash the ideology. Won't be easy.
CBGBCBGB ✉
3 hours ago
@ JIT, SD, CBGB - or any other Liberal leaning poster...
Please tell the rest of us what it will take for you to take a stronger position against radical Islamic / Muslim terrorists? Obviously the death and destruction they caused with the first attack on the World Trade Center, 9-11, Boston Marathon, Fort Hood, San Bernardino, Pulse night club, NYC truck attack - weren't enough you guys. Tell us - at what point will you have had enough? I honestly want to know. Will it take a few of the European style attacks? Seriously - what needs to happen for you to reach your tipping point?
3wbdwnj http://www.hackettstownlife.com/forum/823905#t824253
I'll gladly answer your question What a surprise when someone tells me in a clear manner just who it is we need to direct our attention to. Names, places, leaders, countries, populations-who?
What's the proposed plan?
When a person posts on a public forum and this is a direct quote
"Muslims need to be eradicated. There's no other answer."
then a nazi comparison is appropiate, fer real, if suggesting killing 2 billion people based on their religion doesn't do it what will?
@JIT - got it, you'd do nothing and just wait for the next attack.
Me, for a start, I would suspend all ICE activity focused on Mexican and South American illegal immigrants and re-direct those agents to locate the immigrants from every F-ing Muslim country that has overstayed their Visas.
So all Muslim are suspect, irregardless of anything else? All 1.8 billion of "them", 24% of the worlds population?
Think about that for a minute. If there was one acting terrorist for every *one million* muslims that would mean there would be 1800 individuals running amuck and making you fear for your life. I submit the problem is nowhere near that number (if it were our news stations would be reporting terrorist incidents at a rate of 5 incidents every single day).
So would you agree that the odds of a Muslim becoming an active terrorist is greater than 1,000,000:1?
Yes, we need to spend the time and energy to find those who wish to act out, but we should not make blanket statements that are nowhere near justified by reality. Stop doing that and the conversation can continue productively.
JIT - you obviously missed my point about starting with the Muslims now in this country illegally because they overstayed their Visa. I never said all 1.8B of them. But, you keep your head in the sand - that plan is working just fine.
Holy-gamoly JIT. I think we’re pulling the same way on the oars on a lot of this. What a surprise that someone is back peddling.
Ok. So what's the scope? How many people are you talking about?
This is why I asked for clarity earlier. Please quantify the problem that your solution addresses.
JIT, you're helping to make my point. We have no idea what the scope of the problem is because of this country's weak immigration system. I think it's a pretty safe bet that tracking down, and deporting illegal Muslim will prevent some future attacks. Does it eliminate them - of course not. But, as I said, it's a start. I take that back - the start is acknowledging there a problem. Perhaps some day you, and others like you, will finally admit that.
Well, I personally have a problem with any actions taken due to presumed (assumed even) guilt using nothing more than being a member of a group. In this case, it's being Muslim, but we know where this goes because we've been there before.
Racism makes the same group-based presumptions. Not so long ago we had a mass-delusion in this country that color made-the-person and the "problems" needed to be solved in some way. But there was never a problem in the first place, just some folks making assumptions about the entire group and pointing to a small subset as their justification. It was the subset that were the problem (the bad apples), not the entire group. And the nazi's did the same with the Jews. Based on the numbers I presented above, to me it can't be any clearer that the same thing is happening now towards muslims.
Thus my asking for clarity here. Why are we wanting to target an entire population when it's clearly just a subset causing the problems? Is it just easier to target the whole group? Is that it, frustration leading to making the problem a million times bigger than it really is?
didn't we do something like that already
EXECUTIVE ORDER 9066
https://tinyurl.com/p7n8p22
We get vaccines why? As a precaution. There's no guarantee or proof that you will get the disease, so why get the shot?
Answer: because what you are getting vaccinated against could be life-threatening.
Ah.
So, a travel "ban" on muslims from certain parts of the world where islamic radicals live, fight, and in some cases control.... seems like a reasonable "precaution" to me. There's no guarantee or proof that some of those muslims are radical and are going to kill us, but... it's a life-threatening chance. So, VACCINATE.
There's nothing racist in that AT ALL. It's a precaution. We aren't rounding them up and putting them into camps and seizing all their possessions like democrat FDR did during WWII, we are simply barring them from entry. No one's rights are being violated (and it's arguable exactly what rights you think they have here anyway, not being US citizens, which many of those Japanese WERE.)
Why do Liberals Defend Islam although its against everything you stand for?
Islam is against Same sex marriage.
Islam is against abortion
Islam supports death penalties
Islam denegrates women and treats them as property
Stop bending over backwards to avoid being racist or xenophobic and understand that folks like this hate us and our way of life and want as many of us dead as possible. The only way this can be rectified is if the Muslim community begins to ferret out the extremists and turn them in to the authorities. Until they begin to police their own we cannot live in harmony.
"And the nazi's did the same with the Jews"
The Jews weren't going around blowing people up, enslaving African migrants, enslaving Yazidi and Christian women as sexual slaves, beheading, crucifying, burning alive innocent victims, and didn't kill innocent children without remorse. It's not a valid comparison in my mind.
Who's defending Islam skippy? The point of discussion is preventing terroristic acts.
Do you disagree with the prevalence of incidents vs the target population you just described? For instance, many more folks die in car crashes than by the hands of terrorists, do they not, yet that's on no ones radar.
I certainly don't agree with the philosophies of Islam, but the question here is one of actions. The overwhelming majority of Muslims quite obviously do NOT commit acts of terror, yet you and others wish to treat them all as if they do? Sorry, there's no way to ever justify the broad-based approach that's been discussed here. There's simply no justification at incident rates of one-in-a-million.
Btw, did you imply that I am a "liberal"? Quite funny if you did.
I was not even referring to you - however the point remains that the millions of innocent Muslims you refer to know who the 1% are - the only way to gain traction is to create strong incentives to turn them in.
The car accident non-correlation is a straw man fallacy.
JIT, maybe all Muslims don't commit acts of terror however very few "moderate" Muslims condemn these acts when they occur. Maybe they don't want to speak badly of their fellow brethren. Maybe they're afraid of potential repercussions from the terrorist. Or maybe they are just sympothetic to the cause in a passive aggressive manner. Sometimes the Muslim community has celebrated acts of terror perpetrated against US citizens by other Muslims. Muslims celebrating in the streets of Jersey City over the 9/11 attacks comes to mind. You've been picking away at other posters here wanting to know the quantity of Muslims that are implicated. Well I'll give you an answer, all of them!
BC "however the point remains that the millions of innocent Muslims you refer to know who the 1% are - the only way to gain traction is to create strong incentives to turn them in."
Please re-read that skippy and ask yourself how that would even be possible? Our monkey spheres are so small that what you are implying is quite impossible.
The car accident point was only to show that the response you want to take to minimize terrorism is waaaayyyy out of proportion to the end result. You and others are allowing your emotional brains to take over the rational thought process.
I can only see a broad-brush response as being one of frustration, because it's very difficult to determine who, precisely, will act next. As I said, we've been here before. And it's just plain wrong.
"The Port Authority bomber’s family. They were outraged. No, not at their terrorist son. At law enforcement for being too mean to Muslims.
We had a big laugh at that notion. It takes a big, idiotic set of grapefruits to blame the cops after your son’s failed terror attack. Grapefruits, granted, that the bomber might not have any more. Hopefully. We haven’t gotten confirmation on whether his little cleric was blown off or not. Until you prove it otherwise, we’re moving forward just because it’s funnier that way. Not only does he not get his 72 virgins. He doesn’t get to detonate all over himself thinking about them in his cell.
We’re enjoying the comedic side to this failure of a terrortard. But you know who’s not amused? The Sergeants Benevolent Association of the NYPD. They represent more than 13,000 current and retired sergeants. At least 12,998 of them have both middle fingers in the air."
https://www.louderwithcrowder.com/nypd-responds-port-authority-bombers-family-not-pretty/
There's also info on the link between CAIR and the Muslim Brotherhood.
The point is you can't ban 2 billion people in this world (Muslim) because the Zionists want this.
Instead look at WHY these people are engaging in terrorism? From the US perspective, its true causes are general meddling in the Arab world and specifically support for the Apartheid invasion known as Israel.
JIT - this is not about racism which is defined below
“ a belief that race is the primary determinant of human traits and capacities and that racial differences produce an inherent superiority of a particular race”
https://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/racism
Islamophobia is real, but is heavily exaggerated. I think we can agree that while many of us can’t abide by the tenets we aren't against Islam, we are against Radical Islamic Terror. It's that simple.
Terror is not defined under modern interpretations of the Quran. These terrorists make a mockery of what it means to be Muslim, and kill even their own people, along with Americans and those of the Jewish faith. Their actions are inexcusable; trying to use Islamaphobia to defend them is not only wrong, it's a stupid display of Whataboutism that takes away from the fact that thousands have died under the terrors of Radical Islam and Palestinian Nationalism.
That's all well and good skippy, and I agree with most of that.
In case you missed it though, my issue is with broad-based "solutions" that target the whole group based on nothing more than membership in that group. We need to identify and target the subset that you described.
For example, does the travel ban differentiate or not?
Until we find a way to differentiate between members of a group that want to destroy us as a people we have no choice. If Muslims truly want to live in peace they can no longer remain complicit to the acts of terrorism committed in the name of their religion - just as Christians cannot.
Skippy,
I think JIT is a very patient man. Finally you say: "I think we can agree that while many of us can’t abide by the tenets we aren't against Islam, we are against Radical Islamic Terror. It's that simple." Personally I am against terror in all forms whether it be a white accountant with a hotel room full of guns or a disturbed immigrant who claims Allah made me do it.
But JIT (and I) were pushing back when you seem to broad brush the entire religion as either evil or shirking from their responsibility to rise up and turn these guys in. Others were more direct in their hatred of the entire religion or anyone not born in America as being suspect or just downright evil.
Liberals don't protect terrorists; liberals don't avoid the words radical Islam. Obama even used it and explained why he, as President, avoids the words: " http://www.cnn.com/2016/09/28/politics/obama-radical-islamic-terrorism-cnn-town-hall/index.html and here: http://www.politifact.com/truth-o-meter/article/2016/jun/14/obama-vs-trump-radical-islam/
Clinton used it: http://www.politifact.com/truth-o-meter/statements/2016/oct/09/donald-trump/trump-clinton-wont-use-term-radical-islamist-terro/
Yes, there are human rights issues with this religion and these countries. That's another issue and not reason to wipe all Muslims off the face of the planet. The "Liberal" Administration took the war to the terrorists like no conservative ever has. "For example, Bush launched about 60 strikes in Somalia, Pakistan and Yemen, according to data from the New America Foundation, killing a maximum of about 400 militants. Obama, on the other hand, has launched more than 500 strikes in those three countries, killing anywhere between 2,700 and 4,000 militants." http://www.politifact.com/truth-o-meter/article/2016/apr/18/who-killed-more-terrorists-obama-or-bush/
So all you conservative cupcakes can just give us liberals a break on this. We all want to bring all terrorists to justice, one way or another. It's just that some of us would rather be targeted than paint with a broad brush.
And....."Once again SD the American infidel" says that Denis can only make his point by personal attacks and name calling. That's just rude and unneeded. Especially when you roll out the ole Nazi comparison to support your views on terrorism. Very strange approach.
JIT -- while I generally agree with your tomes (wow, this is good!), one point I would differ is the car analogy. Yes, in the scheme of things US terrorist actions result in minimal loss of life especially when compared to other everyday events. Don't matter when you consider the effect on the culture and natural psyche. All of a sudden I can't run in airports. I take a cab instead of the B-line. It changes us.
So does a mass shooting in almost the exact same way. But........do we care? Here at Hackettstown Life, we launched a total of 45 posts. To date, this guys acts have generated 123 entries. Something tells me our "interest" is not based on the amount of life lost. Over 10,000 shooting deaths a year, many more wounded. While mass murders are a small number, mass shootings are through the roof. So where is our mind share and budget going?
Or try this: if you had to let a single terrorist slip through our security net, just one guy, isn't this the exact one guy you would have let through? Perhaps we should rejoice?
Just saying.
"For example, does the travel ban differentiate or not?"
It doesn't have to, read my post above. Barring entry is NOT violating anyone's "rights". It's a precautionary measure that violates NO ONE's rights. You may not LIKE it, but that's irrelevant.
Who says America has to let everyone in all the time anyway??? And don't even bother with this "be the better country" crap, America has saved the world twice in the last 100 or so years. Nothing wrong with taking measures to try to keep this violence off our home soil, especially when the actions VIOLATE NO ONE'S RIGHTS.
When we start rounding up muslims and imprisoning them in camps, let me know. Until then, frankly, you got nothing.
"Until we find a way to differentiate between members of a group that want to destroy us as a people we have no choice."
We always have a choice.
Are you saying it's ok to treat 1.8 BILLION folks as criminals when only 0.001% of them may be?
JIT - you’re a broken record. We get it - you want to sit back, do nothing - and just deal with the fallout of next attack, and the one after that, then the next one, and so on. You should move to Switzerland.
"Are you saying it's ok to treat 1.8 BILLION folks as criminals when only 0.001% of them may be?"
Thankfully, 1.8 BILLION Muslims don't want entry into the United States.
Barring them from entry into a country that is not their own is not treating them as criminals. If it is, there's an awful lot of countries around the world who treat everyone else on the planet as criminals.
I found this post on another forum:
"a majority of the countries in the Middle Eastern sphere of the world (ranging from Morocco in the West to Iran in the East) have placed some sort of ban on people who have ever visited Israel in their lifetime. In order to combat this and make the lives of incoming tourists much easier, Israel has begun to hand out the visa stamps required in paper form, rather than actually stamp the proof of visitation on the passport."
"The reason why the United States is being so lambasted regarding the travel bans lies partly in the face that this country is a country that, by and large, no matter what anyone says, is at the forefront of global politics. It's just a simple truth that the world tends to care more about the politics and beliefs of the United States of America over those of, say, Myanmar or Nigeria, due to the lack of power in relation to that behemoth of a state. America is one of the beacons of the Western Civilization, and any action it undertakes speaks volumes regarding what both the present and the future will hold for people involved in said civilization in the first place."
I'm going to emphasize that last sentence:
"America is one of the beacons of the Western Civilization, and any action it undertakes speaks volumes regarding what both the present and the future will hold for people involved in said civilization in the first place."
Perhaps the world (certainly Europe) should pay attention to what America wants to do more often, then perhaps they wouldn't be having the problems they are having, things would not escalate to a point where drastic measures must be taken (of which a ban is NOT).
It can't help but to remind me of western Europe in WWII...
...awe, Hitler's ok, he just wants to help Germany improve. It's not like he's invading anywhere.
...hmm, well, he is getting pretty strong... maybe we should sign a treaty with him so he doesn't invade us. Yeah, that'll work.
...damn that didn't work. He invaded us. And he's invading more countries. Oh well, it'll be OK, the UK will put a stop to this.
Chamberlain: "What? Hitler? Nothing to worry about, we signed a treaty with him. Well, yeah, he invaded a bunch of other countries, but he wouldn't dare challenge us.
France falls.
Oh hell!!! Here he comes!!! Churchill!!!! America!!!! HELP!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
(and imo, we failed to get into that war - the European theatre anyway- early enough. Thank God we did, or the world would be a very different place right now.)
Never said that at all - I said we need to find a way to ferret out terrorists - since we cannot we have no choice but to paint things with a broad brush and since Muslims are the most effected by both acts of terrorism and the resulting discrimination the community needs to identify those who they believe will commit them.
Fact: The biggest victims of Terrorism ARE Muslims: "...Muslims are the most affected by terrorism around the world...While attacks by Muslims against non-Muslims in Europe have dominated headlines recently, researchers from the National Consortium for the Study of Terrorism and Responses to Terrorism (START), a research and education center at the University of Maryland, believe that Muslims are in fact the most likely victims of terrorism worldwide. START Executive Director William Braniff and his team studied the causes and human consequences of terrorism, compiling details about attacks...What they found is that — although they did not always have information about the religious beliefs of the victims — Muslims were the most affected overall."
Source: – National Consortium for the Study of Terrorism and Responses to Terrorism (START): http://abcnews.go.com/Politics/muslims-absolutely-group-victimized-global-terrorism-researchers/story?id=48131273
Seven percent of Muslims in America told Pew researchers that violence against civilians is “sometimes” justified in the name of Islam, and 1% said “often.” This means there are more than 100,000 Muslim adults living in this country who could justify a suicide bombing in the name of their religion.
http://www.pewresearch.org/fact-tank/2017/08/09/muslims-and-islam-key-findings-in-the-u-s-and-around-the-world/
What’s that mean? Well, if we extrapolate the United States’ 8% figure of those who would “sometimes” or “often” justify suicide bombings and other forms of violence in the name of Islam, there'd be more than 100 million people around the world who just might condone the next terrorist attack. And that number might be low. According to Pew, 15% or more of adults in U.S.-allied Turkey, Jordan and Egypt believe suicide bombings are sometimes or often justified.
So it’s not .001% - there are currently 100K people living in this great country that are complicit in using terrorist attacks in the name of Islam. If that is not sufficent to demonstrate the scope of the problem I don’t know what else I can say.
I agree with the ban on immigration from suspect countries. What I don't agree on is a genocide solution of all Muslims.
I wonder how many people posting here have done any research into the religion of Islam, the Muslim beliefs, the Muslim way of life and the inner conflicts within the Islamic community as to how to follow the law of Islam.
http://islamicsupremecouncil.org/understanding-islam/legal-rulings/5-jihad-a-misunderstood-concept-from-islam.html?start=9
On the flip side this is a very good book to read as well
https://tinyurl.com/ybhatsog
If you want some understanding of who we are talking about take a look at the refugees fleeing Syria. How different are they from Americans? They want to be able to live in peace, they want to feel safe to live their lives and raise their children with decent health care, education and living conditions.
Of course there are plenty of bad ones too just like in America. Our prisons aren't full because we are all good people.
We need to continue to rid the world of radical wrong thinking Islam.
and of course keep your blinders on
https://tinyurl.com/k8elprr
Nobody said genocide - they need to share the owness or identifying violent terrorists
JR --- excellent comparison for the similarities of WWII and our war on terror. It makes absolutely no sense whatsoever, much less logic, so I appreciate you showing us that. I have a technical question. WWII was the vision of one man: Hitler. Where is the Muslim Hitler in your comparison. How can you compare if there is no Muslim Hitler?
Skippy: Nice that PEW updated this old stuff and always very interesting to see the we love Sharia Law and OK-to-bomb statistics. First, I think many of us (7% is the US Muslim metric) might say: "violence against civilians is “sometimes” justified in the name of...." (pick your cause) ", and 1% said “often.”" What is 7%? Pretty low opinion rate. I mean 46% of all blacks in America say there's a lot of discrimination around; 16% of whites agree ---- according to PEW. Does that mean 10% of all US blacks are facing discrimination? Does that mean their is even any discrimination? Not necessarily. Then you extrapolate this US opinion as reality to the world. Why when you have much of the data for other countries? Plus that would tell you 7% is low.... But beyond that, if agreement to an idea is complicity to the act, then your man Trump is very, very guilty of a number of heinous acts including owning slaves and raping women. Last I checked, you can't condemn someone for their thoughts. And not one of these "thoughts" means that any of these 7% agree to even one act of terrorist violence. Not one.
Sharia Law observance is the more interesting metric to me. Seems really weird anyone would support this. Given what it is in our current world, I can not even comprehend anyone saying "hey, give me some of that...." Then I read up on it and the first thing you note is that Sharia Law can differ based on geography, sect, and government. Second, and this is the big one, as defined in the Quran, it is voluntary, it is separate from the state, it can not be state mandated, and it can not be forced on other religions. Wow, now you can see why lots of Muslims might be for what their religion calls for, not necessarily what the state supports. The Sharia Law called for in the Quran is different than that practiced by extremist Muslim authoritarian non-secular countries. Actually, Sharia Law seems to be the right Muslim thing to do. https://www.huffingtonpost.com/qasim-rashid/shariah-law-the-five-things-every-non-muslim_b_1068569.html
Point is that the Muslim faith is practiced differently by different sects in different ways depending where on the globe you are. While averages are nice, because this is a multi-national, multi-sect religion, there might be differences across the globe. Broad brush assumptions and solutions will result in less than perfect outcomes.
"Nobody said genocide - they need to share the owness or identifying violent terrorists" Perhaps they do. Perhaps you should look.
https://www.google.com/search?sourceid=navclient&aq=&oq=muslims+fighting+isis&ie=UTF-8&rlz=1T4GGHP_enUS746US747&q=muslims+fighting+isis&gs_l=hp....0.0.3.2518523...........0.dpkqDC1yeeM&gws_rd=ssl
I mean this is hard. This is tough stuff. This is harder than identifying all good guys who own guns who are about to go bad. And there's ten's of thousands of those guys in America every year.
What I question is what is Trump's plan, how is it working, and why do we keep seeing dead SEALs in countries we didn't even know we were fighting in? What is the plan and how are we doing? It's been a year now.....He said it was easy.....Seems the only success we've had is based on actions started during the Obama administration. And the attacks in the US are growing with Trump's response that he will hit them 10 times harder than they hit us. Does that mean we are going to send 10 SEALS in to blow themselves up with bombs made badly?
@And....."Once again SD the American infidel" says that Denis can only make his point by personal attacks and name calling. That's just rude and unneeded. Especially when you roll out the ole Nazi comparison to support your views on terrorism. Very strange approach.
SD you are so full of s##t, you basically imply I'm a racist, then get offended when I call you an infidel. Guess what to them you are, fact. When it comes to Islam I am as well, and proud to be one! The nazi comparison it spot on. You claim the terrorism carried out by radical muslims have nothing to do with their religion they are just thugs who would find a another reason to do these type of things. Wrong they are swept up in an evil ideology that spurs them on, same as the Germans who were swept up in an evil ideology Nazism. Neville Chamberlain would be proud of you.
Yes, you frequently call lots of people names. Its who you are.
And you are calling me a number of childish names this time because you feel I “implied” you are a racist, to use your words.
Nice pre-emptive strike. Filthy language in response to an implication. You’re the man.
https://www.thereligionofpeace.com/pages/quran/violence.aspx
Gee I wonder why you have muslims killing people. Their own book calls for killing non-believers....
SD "Like I said; depends how you look at it. Denis can see Muslims but can’t see white guys for the trees."
If that's not implying I'm a racist then explain what you meant?
I get into plenty of debates with people here, but please point out where I have called anyone names besides you. I actually have a lot of respect for some of the people I get into debates with, since I know their feelings are sincere, and they have some idea of the facts. It's really just you because I consider you a fraud and a clown. You can never debate me with facts, or direct responses so you constantly resort a to false implications, and trying to claim I said something I never did. Your first comment directed at me on this thread was to imply I'm a racist, and that I blame Obama. The racist implication is an insult, so don't get all offended when it comes back to you, and as pointed out earlier, no where did I blame Obama, the man I voted for twice. I've been calling you out on you BS for a long time. I know it stings, too bad, you are a fraud.
"excellent comparison for the similarities of WWII and our war on terror. It makes absolutely no sense whatsoever, much less logic, so I appreciate you showing us that. I have a technical question. WWII was the vision of one man: Hitler. Where is the Muslim Hitler in your comparison. How can you compare if there is no Muslim Hitler? "
There you go with your "false equivalencies"... there need not be "a Hitler" for the comparison to be valid. The Reich had an IDEOLOGY they followed. A view of "how the world should be". Ditto the these Islamic Jihadists.
Hitler was "the guy", but you don't NEED "a guy" to do it.... and sometimes it's better to NOT have "a guy". You should read The Starfish and The Spider sometime.
Other that that, I can't help you, it must go over your head.
The Starfish and the Spider: The Unstoppable Power of Leaderless Organizations https://www.amazon.com/dp/1591841836/ref=cm_sw_r_cp_api_2pWmAbFYVQ11N
"If that's not implying I'm a racist then explain what you meant?" Really? Why? So you can hurl more names? Maybe take them back.... First, I was wrong about the frequent name calling crack, mistook you for another D-boy, my bad, sorry, apologize. Second, the discussion, in general, seemed to be the same old tired discussion re: Muslims -- all bad or not? Mass Murder --- all Muslim or homegrown by mostly white guys? My comment was aimed at that, nothing more and nothing racist meant. Especially given all participants are of the same race, Muslims and white guys alike.... Sorry if you were offended but actually just picked your name from the group of folks expressing these views.
And then we went Godwin which I feel is so far over the line as to be an argumentum ad absurdum, the value of which I can just not fathom.
So, again, sorry for the error in association, I apparently can not trust myself, I should have verified.
"And then we went Godwin which I feel is so far over the line as to be an argumentum ad absurdum, the value of which I can just not fathom. "
And there's your problem.
It's comical, ever since this so-called "Godwin's law" was invented, liberals love using it to attempt to shut down conversations. As if the mere mention of Hitler automatically disqualifies EVERYTHING you have to say. Ludicrous.
Learn from history, don't repeat it, because that just makes you stupid.
We all want justice in the war on terror. I just favor targeted surgical strikes against actual terrorists versus a broad brush against entire swaths of the world’s population. Yes, these folks are subhuman with zero chance of redemption. Let’s give them the afterlife they desire ASAP.
But why would anyone compare Radical Islam Terrorists with Hitler and his Nazis? Is it part of the “those who forget history are doomed to repeat it?” rap. I just can’t imagine that you really believe that. (Does this mean we have to let all ISIS survivors take up residence in South America?)
Some factual comparisons:
Hitler took Europe and Northern Africa. When we're talkin Nazis, we’re talking major parts of continents. Dozens of countries. Many religions.
ISIS holds a shrinking part of Syria and Iraq: we’re not even talking entire countries.
Hitler executed millions; ISIS has executed hundreds.
ISIS has around 5,000 slaves, Hitler had 15,000,000 forced laborers over his duration.
The Nazi’s spirited away over 12 million souls from up to 20 countries. I’m sorry, what’s the number for ISIS here? Your comparison amounts to a hill of sand. Literally.
Nazi’s formed the AXIS powers. Radical ISLAM has yet to join forces in any significant way; even ISIS is a splinter Al Qaeda group. You remember them from when Obama killed their leader and shrank them to a few hundred field operatives? You know, just like we dispatched the Nazis where we favored tactical surgical strikes to take out infrastructure and military, not civilian, targets?
And I’m sorry, who are you calling Chamberlin and why? Another weird comparison?
My point: my father and his generation stopped Hitler and all of America paid a heavy price to get that job done. After the war, they kept paying on the debt alone for over 35 years.
Some of my family went behind the lines to protect their family, living near starvation in horrid conditions under the brutal Nazis. Do you really expect me to equate ISIS with that? Because if you do, you better step up and say something better than that history rap.
I mean if we at the antepenultimate moment before the Muslim Reich, doesn't that sure make having the yugest tax break in history sort of counterintuitive to stopping the next Nazi-like regime? Sure makes buddying up to the Russians counter to cleaning up Syria. No, I say there is no comparison to the greatest generation OR to what they faced and accomplished so stop devaluing their accomplishments. Instead, if you want to compare, then compare their sacrifice to yours before you take your xmas tax gift. Instead, I say it should be our turn to step up, make this a better world for our children, and not take the easy route of throwing more bodies at condemning all Muslims to whatever fate you propose. I think there's a better way to arrive at the right conclusion.
"Hitler took Europe and Northern Africa. When we're talkin Nazis, we’re talking major parts of continents. Dozens of countries. Many religions. "
Radical Islam has "taken" many sections of the middle east, if not entire countries. It's not so much as a conquering, it's more of a viral infection that spreads from the inside as people turn to this evil ideology.
"ISIS holds a shrinking part of Syria and Iraq: we’re not even talking entire countries. "
see above answer.
"Hitler executed millions; ISIS has executed hundreds. "
Uh-oh, fact check time. Of course, we aren't talking specifically about the organization known as ISIS; we are talking about the ideology of radical Islam. Death toll so far? Well, I can't go all the way back to the Crusades, that would be a huge number. But "hundreds"? It is to laugh...
2016 alone was 25,621. Worldwide. And those are just deaths, not those who were kidnapped/held hostage/sold into sex slavery.
"ISIS has around 5,000 slaves, Hitler had 15,000,000 forced laborers over his duration."
Forced laborers? They were prisoners. Intended to work until they die.
"The Nazi’s spirited away over 12 million souls from up to 20 countries. I’m sorry, what’s the number for ISIS here? Your comparison amounts to a hill of sand. Literally. "
For now. And alot of us would like it to STAY that way- a hill of sand. Not increase due to a laissiez-faire attitude.
And besides all that, we know what you're doing: you're trying to obfuscate the issue, as you always do, by changing the subject somewhat. I compare the ideology of Nazi Germany to the ideology of radical islam (actually the ideology of radical islam is much worse, if someone like Osama Bin Laden had Hitler's resources, Europe would look very different right now. Well, actually maybe not: because it would be WWIII and America and Allies would get involved.) Just because Hitler had the resources to kill millions.... you don't think if these radical islamists COULD kill millions they wouldn't? Of course they would! But I'm talking ideology, and you're trying to reduce everything to statistics, as you always do. I wonder how you'd feel on the subject if it was a little closer to home for you... like if YOUR loved one became the "one in a million" chance victims of one of the attacks....
SD the Chamberlain quote was about a man who did not want to confront evil, and tried appeasement instead.
"Some of my family went behind the lines to protect their family, living near starvation in horrid conditions under the brutal Nazis. Do you really expect me to equate ISIS with that? Because if you do, you better step up and say something better than that history rap."
Don't play that card with me. My father joined the army to fight Nazi's also. On one of his flights his plane crashed, and he severely damaged his kidneys. He eventually died from Kidney failure when I was 10 months old, so I have no memory of him. I don't take any credit for his sacrifice, but both my Mother and I paid a price for his service to this country in the fight against Nazi's. It's valid comparison in my mind. Death and destruction in the name of a false ideology.
+1 Denis.
My father was in the Pacific Theatre. A little study of Japanese ideology at that time is also pretty scary.
"Death and destruction in the name of a false ideology."
EXACTLY.
Oh Skippy, that guy is a Catholic priest. That makes EVERYTHING he says biased, untrustworthy, and full of crap! LOL
SD p.s.
"No, I say there is no comparison to the greatest generation OR to what they faced and accomplished so stop devaluing their accomplishments"
This is a prime example of why I find your debate style reprehensible. I of all people would not devalue their accomplishments, and it's another one of your false innuendos. You are always making false implications about what people say, or what they really mean. Like I told you your act got old a long time ago.
I finally got around to checking the link metsman posted. It's interesting how the article quotes The Qur'an because in my Qur'an the wording is much different with a different meaning/interpretation
An example is 2:190 Fight in the way of Allah those who fight against you but do not transgress. Allah does not like transgressors.
I guess anything can be twisted to ones ends
kind of left my thought unfinished, lost track of time and had to get to work, anywee back to the posted article
the article has Qur'an 2:192 as -but if they desist, then lo! Allah is forgiving and merciful.
my Qur'an has - And if they cease, then indeed, Allah is Forgiving and Merciful.
not the same meaning at all
the article has Qur'an 2:16 - Fighting is prescribed for you, and ye dislike it.
my Qur'an - Battle has been enjoined upon you while it is hateful to you
again a different meaning but why let the truth ruin the article
the words are different but the takeaway is the same, and you need more than one verse to understand the context in which it should be understood, studying these verses in the whole chapter in which they reside is a better way to understand scripture
please describe for me what you think the differences are in the two translations you provided, and who is to say what the truth is when comparing multiple translations of 1400 year old religious texts?
There are hundreds of translations of the Quran - unless any of us are Islamic scholars it’s probably best we don’t do down this road. There’s no one true copy
I believe you used a Chamberlain comment trying to shame me unless you are claiming somehow that I vote for appeasing terrorists? Now you are pulling the ole “mine is bigger than yours” trick over WWII vets when I clearly said “my father and his generation” as my example which, of course, includes the greatest generation. And yet you complain of my dastardly debate doings as your rationale to launch some more name calling. Sweet.
You are claiming “Death and destruction in the name of a false ideology” is enough for an apt comparison between ISLAMIC TERRORISTS and The Third Reich. Crap, I could say that about Pol Pot, Sadam, or even white supremacists. I say, and have listed above and can list more, that IMO, I believe the comparison falls short by way of scope and reach and therefore, IMO, such a comparison devalues the sacrifices that my father, your father, frack --- the entire greatest generation made. It is my humble opinion but, in this one, I think that the facts back me up as much as JR is trying to bulk up the comparison (will get to that little gem later).
Let me take the reprehensible out of it. My opinion is not false, it is not innuendo. I have previously and continue to say it straight up. So quit the name calling, it only defeats your argument.
"So quit the name calling"
Where?
"You are always making false implications about what people say, or what they really mean."
That is not name calling....that's the TRUTH! Yes, sometimes the truth does hurt
I am sorry, do you really intend for me to list all the names Denis has used recently? Is there a profit in that?
SD .
From you "Now you are pulling the ole “mine is bigger than yours” trick over WWII vets"
Your quote below
"My point: my father and his generation stopped Hitler and all of America paid a heavy price to get that job done. After the war, they kept paying on the debt alone for over 35 years."Some of my family went behind the lines to protect their family, living near starvation in horrid conditions under the brutal Nazis. Do you really expect me to equate ISIS with that? Because if you do, you better step up and say something better than that history rap."
What I did was point out that my Father who I never knew eventually paid the ultimate price for fighting Nazi's, somethnig I have never mentioned any time on this forum, and only did in response to trying to imply that your family involvement ( unknown ) gave you some type of authority on the subject. In a twisted attempt to try and gain the moral high ground you claimed that I was devaluing the service of the veterans from WWII, something I never did, and clearly never would, .
To recap on this thread alone, you implied I was a racist, without any racist comments that you can point to, claimed I blamed Obama, which I never did, and I had to point out to you I voted for the man twice, and claimed I devalued the service of WWII veterans, something I clearly never did, and never would.
That is why you are reprehensible, you rely on false accusations, false innuendos, and flat out lies. It's not name calling, it's pointing out the fraudulent way you conduct yourself.
Stranger Danger
As a Muslim
I like you
You got it right
The rest of you are just ignorant
Believe everything you read on the internet and what you hear on tv
Get educated already by talking to one of us face to face not behind a keyboard
H-town Mama Hey Skippy this was just posted on the internet this morning so we need to get educated, and not believe it.
https://www.reuters.com/article/us-pakistan-attack/gunmen-kill-five-in-attack-on-church-in-pakistans-quetta-idUSKBN1EB08E
here is something I read on the internet.
Allah wants us to be kind, loving and respectful to each other. That cannot happen if we call each other by bad names or tease cruelly. Of course humor is appreciated by everyone, but sometimes ‘joking’ can go too far and hurt feelings and make enemies.
@Mama & CBGB -- you're like those parents that refuse to admit their little Johnny is no angel. When will you admit you have fellow Muslims (and whether you acknowledge it or not - they are acting in the name of your religion - because they have been taught and instructed to do so) whose sole purpose in life is to destroy the West and all us non-believers? And, there are plenty of them running around in this country with the full support of family, friends and their Imams.
kb2755 What a sad state of affairs, extrapolating events into a justification for broad-based hate.
It's been said that people see what they want to see. So very, very true.
Anyone have extra quarters to lend out? Looks like heads came up again and is being used to proclaim the "true truth" while ignoring the tails side.
JIT your self-serving, righteous indignation is what is sad. You act as if there is absolutely no basis for the hardline positions being suggested. Do you not see what has happened to Europe over the last 10 - 15 years? It’s only a matter of time the same happens here. Call it what you will, continue to say the reaction is so sad - but when the eventual happens, don’t then say “how did this happen”.
Mama, I believe I have read you are a convert. Which is ridiculous as far as I am concerned. But I doubt you really even know the depths of real muslim ideology and hatred for thousands of years.
+1000 What a surprise, unfortunately some people choose to remain willfully ignorant.
Well JR, it’s either this or taxes……so here goes…..Really? This is the best???you can do?
JR “Radical Islam has "taken" many sections of the middle east, if not entire countries.”
Never has a weasel-worded reply ever sound so confident. Many sections, count em, many, if not entire counties, find em (not that I can name one….) Well, sections and maybe, just maybe a whole country DOES equal Europe and Northern Africa….not. And what the heck does “It's not so much as a conquering, it's more of a viral infection that spreads from the inside as people turn to this evil ideology” ever mean……If that's the case, the answer is 18 countries are infected, none are ISIS controlled.
SD “ ISIS holds a shrinking part of Syria and Iraq: we’re not even talking entire countries. "
JR “see above answer.”
Picture worth a thousand words, especially your incorrect words. See above picture
SD "Hitler executed millions; ISIS has executed hundreds. "
JR “Uh-oh, fact check time.' Uh oh --- I said EXECUTION, not killed. OK, you move the hockey puck to “all Islamic military/terrorist deaths, talk about tossing in the crusades (wow, weren’t the Christians the terrorists back then…) and now are at thousands versus millions. Comparable??
JR “But "hundreds"? "It is to laugh...” SD unless you actually comprehend the word EXECUTED….
SD "ISIS has around 5,000 slaves, Hitler had 15,000,000 forced laborers over his duration."JR “Forced laborers? They were prisoners. Intended to work until they die.”
SD Are you parsing “forced labor until death” as different from slavery? You who just tossed all deaths by terrorists and terrorist executions as the same?
Your conclusion:
JR “Not increase due to a laissiez-faire attitude.”
So, in effect, you seem to be admitting they are not comparable but seem to feel they could be due to our attitude which you have also called a “chamberlain-like” attitude. And one reason that attitude is expressed because we don’t want to treat all Muslims as Radical Islamic Terrorists. I think my “laissiez-faire” attitude is best expressed by killing Bin Laden, killing more terrorists that the previous administration could only dream about, and more important, a much greater kill rate on the command structure for the various terrorist organizations.
And now, during the reign of he who can't be named, we don't know what the strategy is, where we are deployed, and how many body bags are coming home. Seems to be a news blackout for the area or at least a dark greying. But after a year, why aren't we doing what you said?
Then you go off the deep end with your final solution: the last paragraph. This calls for a drink, so back to the taxes, and catch you on that little gem in a moment. Spoiler alert hint: obfuscate.
"....the depths of real Muslim ideology and hatred for thousands of years."
I'm no fan of the Muslim religion, but to be fair, there have been long periods when things were generally peaceful. Also, the religion has not been around for "thousands" of years.
I would say most Muslims are good people. I do have concerns though.
jd2 Tell me what a surprise, please, how you define the scope, the seriousness, of the problem? I tried above to put my thoughts into perspective giving big-picture numbers (incidents vs population) and Skippy is the only one who at least tried to address them. I wish he would provide other numbers for context because all I see is hate and anger in the subsequent answers.
Btw, are you familiar with the FBI crime statistics database at all? Per capita is a common metric they use. Have you ever wondered why?
In a population of 10, a single crime would tell us there's a one in ten chance of it occurring-pretty severe, wouldn't you agree? But one crime in a population of 1,800,000,000? Certainly that is much more rare, agreed?
Even if it's 100 crimes, or 1000 out of 1,800,000,000 that's still very rare in the big-picture sense. So it's not the number of crimes that's the real measure, it's the per capita number that gives significance to the number, which is why the FBI uses it when reporting. See where I'm coming from?
None of this means that I don't see what you're seeing. There's a bunch of bad folks out there doing bad things, and we should certainly protect ourselves from them. The difference seem to be that you don't share my concern with persecuting those who are completely innocent and uninvolved in the bad stuff.
That being the case, the only way you'd be able to influence my thoughts would be if you came back here with some per capita numbers to give your view perspective. Homework assignment perhaps?
"The difference seem to be that you don't share my concern with persecuting those who are completely innocent and uninvolved in the bad stuff."
Who's doing that?
Are non-radical Muslims in this country coming to any harm? Have there been indiscriminate bombings of Muslim locations? Have there even been protests against Muslims en masse in this country? (not including ANTIFA, who hates everybody lol)
You don't have to answer, because we all know what the answer is.
There have been marches/protests against anti-RADICAL Islam, and Sharia Law, which I am sure you will find perfectly understandable AND ACCEPTABLE.
https://www.nbcnews.com/news/us-news/anti-muslim-act-america-stage-marches-against-sharia-law-nationwide-n767386
And even if there are anti-muslim (ALL muslims) protests (that I did not find with a quick search, because I'm not wasting time on this nonsense), I am quite sure they will fall within your "per capita" guidelines, i.e., Muslims have nothing to fear in this country, they have a greater chance of winning the lottery than suffering persecution. (sound familiar?)
AND...stopping non-US citizen Muslims from entering this country is NOT persecution.
Homework assignment perhaps?
There goes the broken record again. Your stats are meaningless when a single terriorist event has the potential to impact ten/hundreds of thousands. Just look what 19 radical Muslim/Islamic terriorists did on 9-11. What were the odds of that happening?
Now we get to the crux of JR’s biscuit of defining Islamic Extremists via a Hitler comparison – apt comparison or fractured fairy tale? You be the judge.
The last paragraph......
JR “And besides all that, we know what you're doing: you're trying to obfuscate the issue, as you always do, by changing the subject somewhat. I compare the ideology of Nazi Germany to the ideology of radical islam (actually the ideology of radical islam is much worse, if someone like Osama Bin Laden had Hitler's resources, Europe would look very different right now.” Did you just say IF ONLY they had Hilter’s resources, they would be comparable…but no --- it’s not that we compare, it’s the ideology that is comparable. You know, superior Aryan race and only one true Muslim faith are comparable ideologies. Mein Kompf and Quran comparable. Peace in a pod comparable. I mean someone had it right when they said the comparison is that they are awful people who want to kill everyone else based on wacko ideas. That’s a freakin wide net. Then you dither on:
JR “Well, actually maybe not: because it would be WWIII and America and Allies would get involved.)” WTH does this even mean??? Is it maybe or maybe not? But wait, there’s more: “Just because Hitler had the resources to kill millions.... you don't think if these radical Islamics COULD kill millions they wouldn't? Of course they would!” Well…if wishes were kisses, we’d all swim in riches. Aren’t you once again self-admitting they are less than comparable?
JR “But I'm talking ideology, and you're trying to reduce everything to statistics, as you always do.” Wow, that’s bad even if I’m right. Statistics --- yech... Let's talk ideas: like NAZI versus ISIS. You show us any ideological similarity beside wanting to kill everyone except those in their group, in one case ethnically, in another based-on religion and I will be impressed. And remember, Radical Islamic Terrorists kill more Muslims than any other religion so, in that case, even this comparison is fractured at best.
JR “I wonder how you'd feel on the subject if it was a little closer to home for you... like if YOUR loved one became the "one in a million" chance victims of one of the attacks....” That’s just low and, of course, rhetorical and unanswerable.
“Besides that, how did you like the play, Mrs. Lincoln?” Great comparison!
Not sure jd2. Some put islam beginning in the 7th century and some as being just under 1500 years old. By the first estimate, I am correct. But more importantly the current believers are extremely dangerous to our way of life and do not try to assimilate. Europe is a chilling example of the influence they have had.
Nobody suggested persecution - unless you consider visiting the US from an banned Islamic country a human right. Did you mean prosecuted?
Muslims are only prosecuted in Burma and some parts if China.
Christians are being prosecuted in Iraq, Iran, Syria, Egypt, Saudi Arabia, Malaysia, some parts of Indonesia, Pakistan, Maldives, and many other Muslim countries.All Muslim countries do however prosecute Christians, though in varying degrees.
Prosecution means active denial of freedom of worship, and freedom to switch religion. Prosecution means difficulties in building places of worship, denial from positions, active violence against the believers, active destruction of the holy books, creation of law that impedes non-majority religion.
I don't see those things happening in USA. JIT - go to a Muslim country and state that you’re homosexual to border control - and see how that works out.
Let’s review the statements on this made previously
1. Muslims don't suffer any real persecution in America.
2. Muslim persecution around the world is 95% committed by other Muslims.
3. Global persecution of Christians is 95% committed by Muslims.
Let’s take a look at how Muslims treat Christians :
Indonesia is not so harsh, it's just about prevention to build church and strong backlash if you want to convert from Islam. Priests / preachers are not arrested by the police, but experience violence from the radicals - a wonderful place.
Malaysia - punishment for conversion to Christianity. Preachers arrested.
Maldives - 100% Muslim country. The rights of non-believers are stripped of all rights until they convert.
Skippy, persecution meaning:
"hostility and ill-treatment, especially because of race or political or religious beliefs"
By the way, what would you call excluding folks 100% based on religious beliefs?
Sorry, but fear is driving your minds. Plenty of reasons for concern, sure, I really do get it. Making blanket assumptions? Never gonna happen.
Believe me, if there was "persecution of Muslims" (meaning ALL Muslims, based only on their religion) in this country, it would be ALL OVER the mainstream media... ESPECIALLY since Trump is president. It's not. Because it's not happening.
So NOW who's "concerned" about something that's NOT HAPPENING (not even a little bit, unlike radical Islamic terrorism, which IS happening AT LEAST a "little bit", using your yardstick)?
"By the way, what would you call excluding folks 100% based on religious beliefs?"
I'd call it immigration policy. But then, I'm for a complete overhaul of that anyway. We've shown the data on other countries that do EXACTLY that, and worse. America is still one of the most "open" countries on the planet. A little prevention could be worth a pound of cure. (again, see my vaccine post, above)
Jit: sorry, but my first answer was; being Muslim :-)
Skip, where's the 95% come from. Sounds like they left out Ireland ;-)
Religious views that lie very much outside of the mainstream and are highly visible are likely to attract criticism and ridicule - especially when you release beheading videos.
Our friends at Pew found that official “restriction on religion” (a more objective term than “persecution”) was at the highest level for six years, as was the “social harassment” of members of religious communities. (2014)
And Christians, indeed, were the most affected group. Christians faced harassment in no fewer than 151 countries worldwide – and not just in the Middle East, China or North Korea.
http://www.pewforum.org/2014/01/14/religious-hostilities-reach-six-year-high/
So as a Trump supporter I’m persecuted if they won’t call out MAGA as my name at Starbucks ? Or is it more when ANTIFA terrorists crack Trump supporters over the head with a bike lock...
That it’s absurd - the definition theoretically fits but the connotation of severity does not fit any of the examples above
"That it’s absurd - the definition theoretically fits but the connotation of severity does not fit any of the examples above"
Exactly.
Just saying....Skip noted, from the article: "And Christians, indeed, were the most affected group. Christians faced harassment in no fewer than 151 countries worldwide – and not just in the Middle East, China or North Korea."
The article actually said: "Christians and Muslims, who together comprise more than half of the global population – were harassed in the largest number of countries, 151 and 135, respectively."
Was that Skip-spin?
Just saying..... And yes, I think your "he who shan't be named" followers being harassed is persecution if repeated within a culture. I mean if you have to walk America looking over your shoulder because after being called derogatory names repeatedly, one does sort of develop a defense mechanism of some sort whether avoidance or response.
No spin - read the statement - Christians 151 Muslims 135.
http://www.pewforum.org/2014/01/14/appendix-3-social-hostilities-index/
Difference is - it’s muslims mainly harassing their own. Not sure where you’re getting the spin accusation from
Federal Judge removed for allowing Sharia Law to be practiced in America:
http://theviews.info/uncategorized/trump-removes-muslim-federal-judge-for-trying-to-implement-sharia-law-in-america/
(the gist of it is, a man beating his wife for speaking to another man comes under the 1st Amendment/freedom of religion)
yeah, it got me... I was digging while you posted. I was on my way back here to report it being incorrect. THANK GOD.
Mea culpa.
Dig twice, post once :>) Digging was the first thing I noted when reading your trash. When you read the headlines, I wondered what would make anyone accept this without a second source.
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"No spin - read the statement - Christians 151 Muslims 135. " Yes, the article said it, you left it out. That's the spin. Accurate yet twisted, this time via omission, to mean something else.
"Most affected" might be viewed differently if one knew "most" actually meant 10%. And since the statistics were based on number, and since Christians are the most populous religion in the world, even if persecution was at a nominal level across all religions, Christians would face more instances, being the largest religious group in the world, over 30% more than Muslims.
Then you add this: " Difference is - it’s muslims mainly harassing their own." While I know you are right, I really wonder why you say it? What difference to the topic at hand, besides the basic fact, might you be alluding to
White accountant with hotel room full o 23 high tech guns, bump stocks, 100-round cartridges, and a lot of other high tech equipment kills 58 people and injures 546: 45 HackettstownLIfe entries later to conclude ---- it's just one of those things.....no need to get excited. Matter of fact, this discussion turned to the real problem: "I don't deny the anti-Obama sentiment was strong, but during and since his 8 years the "outrage culture" has grown much stronger, people can't civilly disagree anymore." Oh yeah --- Obama! Obviously a cautious Trumper choosing not to blame Hillary :>)
Muslim immigrant from Bangladesh with low tech pipe bomb with no proven contact to ISIS beyond reading on the internet, killed zero, minor injuries on a few and 200 HL entries later.......remove all Muslim immigrants, Muslim travel ban, and worse....."Some put islam beginning in the 7th century and some as being just under 1500 years old. By the first estimate, I am correct. But more importantly the current believers are extremely dangerous to our way of life and do not try to assimilate. Europe is a chilling example of the influence they have had."
Said it all: Muslims = "dangerous to our way of life." White guys = Ain't our application of the 2A grand.
Mark Mc. You are absolutely right SD. It makes about as much sense as a political party that believes in the murder of it's own babies in a mother's womb, but spares the life of people who have committed capital crimes.
Forget Godwins Law, I'm making my own now
GodLoses Law in which the length of a forum thread will increase the likelihood of the introduction of Abortion to the discussion.
I omitted it because it was not relevant to my point but linked the source material which you referenced to make yours - not sure how you can say that’s in any way dishonest.
In re Vegas - you don’t find it odd that there’s still no information about it (80 days later) but we had on the scene video of the subway bomber immediately? Vegas - the place on earth with 24x7 camera surveillance .
Could it possibly be due to the fact the shooter was an ISIS sympathiser who hated Trump, and shared Antifa rhetoric?
ISIS claimed him again as recently as last week. Analysts inside and outside the government and Trump* referred to the casino shooting as terrorism. So did the speaker of the house. The 'ISIS claims everything' arguement is nonsense. The case is sealed because of it's ramifications.
"I omitted it because it was not relevant to my point" I think literally defines the concept of spin, Skippy.....Not a biggee in my world, just saying as an fyi as to spin versus objective reporting. And you never promised the later, so just pointing it out.
As to the rest. OMGoodness, given the War of Terrorism news grey-out I can almost break out the tin foil hat on this one, heh, heh. Although I can understand Vegas lobbying to keep everything on the down low; bad for business. Except that fact that with Trump's approval rating versus his rabid fans and fake news advocates, someone in the food chain would probably have fessed up by now.
https://www.snopes.com/las-vegas-shooter-trump-protest/
http://www.politifact.com/truth-o-meter/article/2017/oct/02/hoaxes-fake-news-about-las-vegas-massacre/
No, it's obvious this guy had terminal cancer and was working with the NRA/gun manufacturers to provide a second half revenue surge. Profits not been so good without the FOO affect (Fear Of Obama). Need to stir up some bump stock, body armor, and yuge capacity cartridge sales. Pelosi-Schumer can't scare up a BB gun from the 2A crowd.
there’s no public information released and anyone that has an opinion that does not conclude with time to repeal guns is a conspiracy theorist - gotcha.
Never let a tragedy be wasted to push an agenda
Philliesman Meanwhile down under an Afghan Muslim deliberately drives into a crowd of pedestrians including children. What little information they are giving
"he made what I can best describe as utterances in respect to a range of things about hearing voices, about dreams, but also attributing his actions to perceived mistreatment of Muslims. Obviously we need to explore all of that.” A second man was also arrested at the scene, after the police found him filming the crash and carrying a bag of knives.
Their conclusion, The driver of an S.U.V. who plowed into a crowd on a busy Melbourne street on Thursday, injuring 19 people, was mentally ill, Australian officials said, describing the attack as a deliberate “act of evil” but not terrorism.
Yes of course why would anyone think an Afghani Muslim driving into a crowd of pedestrians, and complaing about the mistreatment of Muslims, could possibly be a terrorist. It's the blind leading the blind.
"You are absolutely right SD. It makes about as much sense as a political party that believes in the murder of it's own babies in a mother's womb, but spares the life of people who have committed capital crimes."
Boom.
And SD: at least I admit it when I make a mistake....you, apparently....are infallible.
You are reading incomprehensible; I apologize all the time.
And that’s your belief of our belief. Its not the entire party. Its not our belief. And its the law of the land.
Perhaps your party can repeal and replace. Of wait, you can’t create, you can only cut and destroy. How many murders are you committing with your 2a, your lax pollution laws. Your raping of our public lands, cancelling the Paris accord, bombing thousands of innocents to get a few terrorists, robbing the poor to pay off your donors, all just to get a few more Russian babies.
Unintended circumstances.
Imagine that you are Abdul. You live in Syria. It is 2017 and you are ten years old. Since your birth in 2007, some nights while you slept, bombs would fall. Sometimes they would be so close that you are lifted from your bed and dumped on the floor. You get up, get back in bed, and fall back asleep. Could be its ISIS, or Assad, or Russia, Iranians, Iraqis, or America Its life, it’s the way it has always been. During the day, in your world, you do not go out and play if the sun is shining. That’s drone time. You play outside when it’s not nice out. It’s safer when the sun is not out. You never walk where you haven’t seen others walk before.
Then a bomb hits too close to home and your entire family is killed. They were not ISIS, they were not terrorists, but they are dead and the Americans dropped it. Ten years pass. You are 20, have been educated, and have some feelings about America that you will exercise over the next ten years. It’s 2027. Is your hatred legitimate?
It is a global village. Welcome to our kid’s future that we all helped create. This stuff is hard. This stuff is tough. This stuff will be with all the Abduls and all of our children for decades. Even if we do the right thing, as right as we can get it, there will be unintended circumstances.
Can you blame little 10-year old Abdul from coming to America with a righteous hatred of everything we are? Blame or not, we will have to kill him and so it continues.
Imagine that you are Abdul. You live in Syria. It is 2017 and you are ten years old. Since your birth in 2007, you are unfortunate enough to be born into one of the religious minitorites. Your father is tortured, and executed, your mother is raped an murdered. You will never make it to America to hate anyone, because like so many other children there you will disappear never to be heard from again. . At whose hands. The free Syrian army / religious fanatics/ Al Nusra/ Al-qaeda. The ones we armed because so many Americans believe the propaganda that we have to intervene in Syria, and stop the evil Russians, and Assad. Never mind that Syria and Russia, have been allied since the 1940's. Never mind that these same Islamist terrorist groups also agree that Russia is the enemy. Years later, we managed to prolong the inevitable for many years. 100's of thousands dead, 100's of thousands displaced, the country in ruins, and Assad still in power. Thanks in large part to the mainstream media that looked the other way for years as the very groups we were arming were committing atrocities all over the country. The same media that never reported the successful russian attacks against ISIS within Syria. Starting with Carter in Afghanistan, and Syria to this day we keep following the same failed policies of fighting proxy wars with the Russians, and creating and arming our most vehement enemies.
EVV SD is right.
The clock is ticking.
Will it be Abdul or someone else.
Use something like CRISPR to make a special liquid, sell it to women as a perfume.
Easy to hide in a container from China, you won't catch everything. You are too greedy and materialistic. You don't make anything in the USA anymore-you buy it low, sell it high and profit, no work involved. You control the finance.
The rest of the world is becoming educated, more foreign born doctors and engineers than Americans. Our universities like foreign money. Our best and brightest make Facebook or go into finance where the MONEY is.
They only have to get through once with the right thing-they will not sleep, they will not rest, they will not give up. They are not weak. It's only a matter of time now.
Sleep well tonight.
@ Dogeball "You are too greedy and materialistic" Are you including yourself in that broad statement.
So I'll take that as a no, and there are many others in that group. I put much more of the blame for the things you mentioned, on big business, and the politicians who are bought and paid for. I do have more than 3 pairs of shoes but you will never see me set foot in a Walmart. When the playing field is not level it makes it much harder for the consumer to buy made in America. The ones that buy low and sell high are people at the top, not your everyday consumer. Banks, Investment firms, big pharma are the one's financing all the political campaigns and stacking the odds against the middle class. I don't think it fair to lay the blame at their feet in one broad brush..The system is corrupt.
Really, that's your take away from unintended circumstances Scottso?
If that's your opinion, you're legally entitled. I would not have made that choice for someone else but I support your feelings to make this choice in that it is the law of our land. I think since Abdul started this life as you or I, I personally would not cast him as guilty before birth. But, as I said, once becoming a terrorist, yes, we will have to kill him.
I am just not into pre-emptive strikes. After all, that's what conservatives and the Tea Party, with support from the Democrats, used to get us into Iraq, which, let's face it, was the reason and birthplace of ISIS. Perhaps you want to abort the whole region just to be safe :>(
Good piece Dennis; you left out the key phrase: unintended consequences. Amazingly we both can be right on this one!
My version was somewhat based on a true story coming from Vietnam extended to our current situation. In the 70’s I met a young man from North Vietnam who told me the story of sleeping with the bombs and how he had a hard time imagining America getting folks who grew up like that to surrender. Folks who were born, raised and lived their entire lives in War. In his case, affluent family who fled South in the mid-60’s and just kept going. The terrorist part I extended from his image of how the Vietcong grew up, educated by our bombing, trained for battle literally from birth, destined to be soldiers against the enemy raining death upon them.
So, let’s look at your assumptions about the US sponsoring anti-Assad/ISIS groups results in support of religious cleansing. First, the US did not invent religious persecution in this region; folks have been fleeing to the US since around 1900 and the Ottomans for different reasons at different times. (See Arabs in America – PBS). But I don't think that diminishes your point of possible unintended circumstances. Second, it’s really hard to see who we support not only because of the news blackout by He Who Shan’t Be Named, and since sides and strategies are constantly shifting as we target Assad one day, ISIS the next. Al Nusra for example, started as a bunch of thugs, quickly became efficient rebels against ISIS and Assad, morphed into Al Qaeda, and now is dis-owned by them and us, I believe.
CIA started backing rebels to fight extremists and Assad’s Russian-backed forces in 2012; our goal was never to topple Assad, just to even the playing field for the rebels. He Who Shall Not Be Named changed that strategy in mid-2017 focusing on ISIS only to avoid conflicts with Assad and Russia; you be the judge of that move. I think, for the most part, we support the FSA who, in turn, supports other groups.
I was intrigued by your list of who the US has supported and would love to see the link on that. Certainly we have supported Al Qaeda, didn’t know we supported Al Nusra, and certainly don’t think we support them today. Seems to be such a quagmire that even journalists don’t want to commit to a list…. Love to see yours.
Likewise, I cannot find reference to religious persecution in Syria at the hands of the rebels and moderate extremists we have supported. Lots from ISIS and extremist religious cleansing of Muslims, Christians and probably Jews, a good amount of Muslim Sunni/Shia in-fighting, but can’t find much else. Again, would love to see your link(s) so I can understand more. Perhaps you can add your information here as well: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Free_Syrian_Army#Allegations_of_war_crimes_against_FSA-affiliated_groups
Oh yeah ---- IMO, we should stop the Russians and Assad: they are evil. These Russians are doing they can, cold-war style, to frack with our heads and way-of-life. Apparently you do not agree. I mean helicopters with barrel bombs over residential neighborhoods….Come on, what’s the fun in that? https://www.theguardian.com/world/2016/sep/25/russia-accused-war-crimes-syria-un-security-council-aleppo
Thanks, good piece, can’t wait to see the support.
Yes SD unintended consequences, exactly my point. You want to stop the Russians and Assad, what do you think will take their place.
"CIA started backing rebels to fight extremists and Assad’s Russian-backed forces in 2012; our goal was never to topple Assad, just to even the playing field for the rebels. He Who Shall Not Be Named changed that strategy in mid-2017 focusing on ISIS only to avoid conflicts with Assad and Russia; you be the judge of that move. I think, for the most part, we support the FSA who, in turn, supports other groups."
So what did evening the playing field accomplish? Prolonged war, as I said 100's of thousands of casualties, and the displacement of 100's of thousands more. A mass exodus to Europe from not only the middle east but large parts of sub Saharan Africa.
The only way to win that war is out direct involvement. Should we go
to war with Russia, and shed American blood for an uncertain future, of unintended consequences, to topple a government they have been allied with for 60+ years? The FSA gave way to Al-Nusra and Al-Qaeda starting in 2013, under Obama's watch, not Trump. Guess who's weapons they are using .
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Free_Syrian_Army
As far as ethnic or religious cleansing, it's rampant on both sides.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sectarianism_and_minorities_in_the_Syrian_Civil_War
Evil Russians, "I mean helicopters with barrel bombs over residential neighborhoods….Come on, what’s the fun in that?"
Meanwhile in Yemen our "ally" Saudi Arabia, routinely bombs civilians, hospitals, schools funerals wedding ect with weapons made in the USA, and with the help of our refueling jets. We don't hold a moral high ground in the middle east.
Unintended consequences exactly, Afghanistan, the rise of Al-Qaeda and osma bin laden with the weapons we provided them to fight the Russians in Afghanistan. Iraq topple saddam hussein and you know the rest. Libya help to overthrow gaddafi, and created a terrorist haven complete with it's very own slave trade.
"Can you blame little 10-year old Abdul from coming to America with a righteous hatred of everything we are? Blame or not, we will have to kill him and so it continues"
Yes because of the unintended consequences of fighting wars with our troops or by proxy. We learn nothing from the folly of our very recent history.
Thanks for the link. Will take time to digest fully but both our UCs can happen as well as all the others you mentioned. What a freaking mess.
Why the heck did we go to Iraq.
Dont have a clue post Assad/russia but giving it over to them is not an answer.
Like I have said, we will live with this for generations. Really ruining an open world.
No I never did, and they were just on tour here recently. I'm a big prog rock fan, and love this album, and this haunting song in particular. Also my all time favorite album cover. It's a shame the artist Barry Godber died so young ( 24 ) and didn't get a chance do do more. Have you?
Sure, many times including this last pass. It was something to remember.
Partial set list from the show:Drumson Werning - Robert Fripp's Announcement
Intro: Islands Coda
Larks' Tongues in Aspic, Part One
Pictures of a City
Cirkus
Neurotica
Epitaph (a strangerdanger favorite)
Drumson Outbreak of Wonderment, Joy & Bliss Arising
The Letters
Larks' Tongues in Aspic, Part Two
Islands
Hell Hounds of Krim
and yes, you're favorite tune was a major hit, done nicely to not be a copy. Fripp was Fripp; he made that pretty clear by not talking, but said one cell phone seen and he was out of there. Actually the Fripp announcement, as it is actually setlisted, some one else said it for him; he is Fripp.... Then they apparently think they are real concert musicians, not rockers, and played and acted accordingly. We talking concert clothes! Fripp will be Fripp but nice to see them back it up with the show, sorry, concert. They did allow selfies at the end of the show, including Fripp, that's a first, and what was really cute is Fripp took selfies of the crowd behind him. Cute but don't take no stinkin pictures during the event ---- it's a concert damn it.
Fripp, being Fripp, sits, yes sits in back surrounded by computers; uses those more than peddles n boxes and was looping stuff back which is really tough. The musicians amongst us were massively impressed..... I am not sure the entire band could see him.....
Highlight was the three drummers in front of the band spread across the entire stage. Get it ---- stage full of three drumsets, to the right behind them a massive keyboard jungle, to the left behind them the guitars and tucked behind the keyboards, hid Fripp and his computers...... That's why you may not want to be on the floor for a Crimson show.....
OK --- best three drum set solo I have ever seen and heard. Might have been 15 minutes. Might be only one I have ever seen but rivals anything I have seen the entire tympani section at NJPAC ever pull off. When one of them kicked off the drum synth it was beyond incredible. OK Fripp ----- you pulled it off again!!!
Lost my voice during the drum bit. It was orgasmic.
Sounds like an incredible show. 3 drum set solo, sounds amazing, so glad I grew with the music I did, compared to today's whatever it is. Good for him putting the kibosh on cell phones.
First thought it was Fripp-ian petulance. They made it work and it was musicianship beyond rock for sure.
Good stuff from the oldsters for sure. Better than Tull’s screen synch with accompaning singers and the most incredible train video for Locomotive Breath. Musicians with us were on awe of merging screen and stage singers for an entire rock opera.
Todd Rudgren is great too. Like 24 songs to a show, a new set every night, no breaks so he can cram more songs in and did the the next night one town away. His band either loves or hates him. He’s 69. I would be out for days.
Rock on.
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