Independence, Liberty and Hackettstown School Survey

Today is the last day to fill out the survey on the GMRSD web site.

https://www.gmrsd.com/

This is a very short survey and does not ask for any personal information. The survey is about the use of the 3 schools in our district but it also includes the prospect of busing students from Hackettstown to the middle school.

In our district, we have had a declining enrollment for many years. Despite the fact that we have 400 less students than 8 years ago, our taxes have increased the maximum amount. Now the superintendent wants to use one of our schools as a special needs school and import students from all over Warren County. This has already started with the pre-school children that the school has started taking. They are counting these children as part of our enrollment to make it look like our numbers aren't as bad as they are. They want to take the middle school students from Hackettstown for the same reason. Hackettstown has virtually the same amount of students now as they had 10 years ago. Why would they want to bus their students to Great Meadows?
This is about maintaining the status quo. If they take in students from other areas they can continue to raise our taxes the maximum amount, while we pay for the facilities, personnel and superintendent. It's time to educate yourself about what is really going on here and let them know your opinion by filling out the survey.

Indy2 Indy2
May '17

It says that the survey is closed.

Seenit
May '17

Actually, the idea of bringing in special needs students from other schools is not to boost enrollment numbers, but rather to bring in additional income. If a student with special needs comes from another district, that district pays tuition to Great Meadows. That in turn is additional income for the district that comes from taxpayers outside the district. In short, the taxpayers have another community are paying GMRSD to educate their special needs student or students.

btownguy btownguy
May '17

As for busing in Hackettstown students to the middle school, that's being presented as an alternative plan to building and/or renovating in the Hackettstown schools. I believe that doing this will complicate matters, as the Hackettstown middle school and GMMS have some completely different schedules and programs. Therefore it is my fear that this will cause greater confusion and be detrimental to the programs, arts, sports, and activities of both schools.

As a sidenote, this is also another step towards regionalization. Regionalization it requires approval by both districts, and if the Hackettstown middle school students are being bus to Great Meadows, I can see that being used as a bargaining chip or negotiation tactic to say "Hey, we're basically regionalized so just approve it already".

btownguy btownguy
May '17

I assume there was a cost/benefit analysis done. How much additional revenue will be coming into the District per special needs pupil.?

kb2755 kb2755
May '17

Actually it's to do both. I was there when the superintendent said that if they could get enough students that "maybe they wouldn't have to raise the taxes as much." It doesn't matter how much additional income they get from other districts if they are unwilling to pass the savings along to the taxpayers. That was made very clear this year when they are getting 900,000 dollars back from our over payment (the equivalent of 3 years of tax increases) and they raised our taxes anyway.

Indy2 Indy2
May '17

"Maybe" is what I told my kids just to put them off until they were distracted by something else..

maja2 maja2
May '17

Great Meadows is getting screwed. We don't want to pay for Hackettstown's poor planning!
Go to the GM BOE meetings and tell them.


Survey results are not binding. This was a ruse to show the BOE asked the residents of their selection. Unless there is an overwhelming % selecting one of the options, the BOE will go ahead with their intentions.

dan l dan l
Jun '17

Lili, How is this Htown's poor planning?

btownguy btownguy
Jun '17

kb2755

I didn't see anything about how much they would charge for special needs students, but this is a public school so they wouldn't be able to charge like private school placements. Meanwhile we would still be responsible for the cost of the facility, upkeep and personnel. The superintendent said that if they got enough students that "maybe" they would be able to cut down on the tax increases. I don't believe they will ever pass any savings on to us because no matter how much they have "saved" they have raised our taxes the maximum amount over the last 8 years.

Indy2 Indy2
Jun '17

Unless you close a school you still have to pay to keep it open regardless of the declining enrollment. Taking in TUITION PAYING students from HMS or Special needs can only help GMRSD.

No Duh
Jun '17

In 1998-99 the 3 schools had 1116 students. Now they have 687. Maybe the school should be closed.

Indy2 Indy2
Jun '17

Now is the time to regionalize the school districts and save the taxpayers money. If we combine Allamuchy, Hackettstown & Great Meadows everything will be standardized for the children's education, sports and extra curricular activities. It is a win-win for the children and taxpayers.

James R. Nicolls James R. Nicolls
Jun '17

My friend gas a special needs child they live in Byram since Byram doesmt.have a specail needs school for what he needs they pay Sparta or Newton 47k a year for him

cherbear cherbear
Jun '17

James, how will that standardization occur? The programs are vastly different. For example, look at electives at the middle school level. HMS students have some every other day all year long. GMMS have some every 6 days. AES have some once a week. How do you standardize that? Do you remove the HMS kids from what they're being provided? Or do you bulk up the others?

Also, can you explain what goes into Regionalizing?

btownguy btownguy
Jun '17

who pays Sparta $47,000 a year, cherbear? that sounds like way too much money.

kepa
Jun '17

There are currently children brought to Great Meadows School District from other districts because their home districts do not offer the programs they need. They paid GMRSD tuition. This happens all over in districts.

Up until this school year, they did not have a special educatoin preschool program in Great Meadows and they were sent out of district to Allamuchy.

Mommyof3 Mommyof3
Jun '17

Does everyone realize if the regionalization happens all districts assume all debts? Hackettstown has not passed a budget in several years and is seriously in debt. I do not see any great benefit to regionalizing for anyone but Hackettstown.

Parental Unit Parental Unit
Jun '17

From the information on the website it seems like they could move all of the current students to Central and the Middle School. That means that Liberty School is not needed for the number of students we now have. It costs at least 300,000 to run Liberty not counting the cost of teachers and other educational personnel. The projected revenue from special ed and pre-K tuition is 190,000. That leaves the residents of our district picking up the additional cost of 110,000 for out of district students. We are already taxed too much for the number of students we have left.

Indy2 Indy2
Jun '17

If you look into it, districts pay a lot more then $47,000 to send some students out of district for certain special services. Hackettstown BOE has all those contract amounts in their agendas online. I think I remember seeing some numbers much higher then this. And the district has very little choice. Legally they must provide the services(in addition to transportation), and some needs are only filled in a limited number of places. Even if a district has a good in house program, there are always kids with certain needs they can't fulfill. I can't even begin to guess how much is spent.


Parental unit, you're incorrect regarding Hackettstown budgets. Budgets have passed (because they didn't need a vote) and they have no outstanding of weighty debt. Schools will often carry debt from. Holding projects for 10-20 years, but that's standard practice.

Where did you get your information?

btownguy btownguy
Jun '17

Indy, that's not how it works. Special needs student tuition is different than standard education. He home district is responsible for a considerable (majority, if not all) of the amount of the total cost for our Of district placements. Believe it or not, they're actually a moneymaker.

btownguy btownguy
Jun '17

I shouldn't do math after 11. What I should have said was it costs at least 300,000 to run Liberty School not counting teachers. 190,000 in revenue leaves our residents paying an extra 110,000 plus the cost of all educational personnel.

They gave a number of options on the website but not using Liberty wasn't one of them. It seems like we can save at least 300,000 by moving all the students to the 2 schools and not using Liberty or we can keep Liberty as a special ed school and take on much higher school taxes. How many special ed teachers would we need? 10 teachers at 90,000 a year plus a principal and aides and nurse, etc. I have heard that they have put aside 1 million of our school taxes to begin funding this plan. I sure would like to know if that's true.

Indy2 Indy2
Jun '17

They can indeed be a money maker. Particularly if a district can offer a service without needing additional staff. However, it does not always make sense. If a district generates $500,000 in revenue, but the services cost $450,000, there is only a $50,000 upside. This is fine if the district has the space to provide this. But it probably wouldn't be worth it if it were the main reason to keep a building open. That cost would far outway the $50,000. Each situation is different and must be thought through. You have 4 extra classrooms? Perfect, generate a little income. Win, win.


btownguy

Not according to their figures. They estimate 190,000 in tuition and the cost of Liberty school is at least 300,000 before adding in educational personnel. Until they give a real cost breakdown, the residents of our district should not go for this.

Indy2 Indy2
Jun '17

I do think it's worth considering a larger special needs population at a location. Home districts are responsible for the costs of educating any special needs student, even if sent out if district. Some districts may pay upwards of $100k/year for some special needs students. If GM were able to provide services for and pick up students from schools in and outside the county, it could be a benefit. An increased special needs population could also equate to additional state and/or federal funding.

I do agree that the plan to consolidate the middle schoolers is not a good idea at this point. It's bad for all schools involved. HMS students are going to miss out on opportunities they HS by being walking distance to HHS.

btownguy btownguy
Jun '17

btownguy, I do admit I got this information second hand. but from someone VERY involved in this issue. I was told that Hackettstown does indeed have a large amount of debt. It is common knowledge that they owe GM 1.9 million. I personally don't know what other debt they may have. But if the districts regionalize, the GM debt is no longer only Hackettstown's.

Parental Unit Parental Unit
Jun '17

Parental Unit, they're wrong and trying to stir the pot. Or perhaps they're talking about the town and not the school?

As you can clearly see here...

http://www.hackettstown.org/cms/lib7/NJ01000669/Centricity/Domain/34/2017%20-%202018%20UFB.pdf

There's no extraordinary debt service. The debt amounts could be the payment to GM and/or paying off the addition (not sure what the time frame was on that loan).

There is no hidden evil debt or anything though. Your source is incorrect.

btownguy btownguy
Jun '17

btownguy, I can't support what I was told with any facts. I was given this information by an interested and involved parent. But from what I was told, all debts from districts who become regionalized become one debt for all. The rest of the information I was given does not make regionalizing appear to be a good idea from any aspect. My taxes are high enough and from what I was told, if this does go through, they will continue to rise.

Parental Unit Parental Unit
Jun '17

Debt service only shows how much they are paying, not how much they owe.

Musicgal Musicgal
Jun '17

Parental unit, you're correct. If regionalized, all debts (and all costs) become the responsibility of the one regionalized district. Additionally, you're going to need to renegotiate salary guides. I don't know anyone that's going to want to take a cut, so you're going to have increased costs there as well.

btownguy btownguy
Jun '17

Musicgal, you're correct, but it also demonstrate a fairly reasonable payment amount.

As of the 2012 audit...

"At June 30, 2012, the School District had $3,679,651 as outstanding debt. Of this amount $546,418 is for compensated
absences, $213,233 is for capital lease obligations, and the balance of $2,920,000 is for bonds for school construction."

I wouldn't call that excessive at all.

btownguy btownguy
Jun '17

The $546,418 for compensated absences. What exactly does that mean?

kb2755 kb2755
Jun '17

Paid time Off

skippy skippy
Jun '17

How does paid time off fall under outstanding debt? Are we talking about accumulated sick and vacation days that have to be accounted for?

kb2755 kb2755
Jun '17

Because it's contractually obligated - generally accepted accounting practices- that's how it's carried on the book - they owe it in the future without notice or upon separation pursuant to the terms of the district contract with labor. And very yea you are talking about exactly that.

skippy skippy
Jun '17

Staffing for special education students is determined by the number of students per class. Up to a certain number you are only required to have a teacher. Up a few more students and you need a paraprofessional. More, than you're required to have 2 teachers. It all depends on the number of students.

When the state did away with County Superintendents, and replaced them with Executive County Superintendents, their primary charge was to begin the consolidation process. Eliminate non-operating school districts. Consolidate K-6 and K-8's. However since NJ still retains home rule, noone wants to give up control of their kids.

To bring Muchy and H'twon into the GMR fold would go back to square one (1993) again when this was tried. H'town said no. Allamuchy said no, leaving Independence and Liberty. It may be worth another go, but Liberty folks still have a bad taste in their mouths from when Mayor Inscho aggressively pursuid dissolution to the current regionalization agreement.

GMR'er GMR'er
Jun '17

Thanks Skippy, wow, that's approximately 15% of the outstanding debt. Is that just for 2012 or is it cumulative year over year.

kb2755 kb2755
Jun '17

Our taxes are already through the roof. Regionalizing with Htown will not make it better. I say this over and over. It doesn't matter how much you save if the savings are never passed on to the taxpayers.
The cost to keep Liberty school open as a Special Ed. school is not outlined in the proposal. How much would the cost be?
The utilities are about 100,000. The Principal is 100,000. The cost of 2 janitors 100,000. The cost of secretaries. Maybe another 100,000. This is all before you add a single special ed. teacher or aide.
That's 400,000 spent before adding teachers. Yet the amount they expect to get in tuition is 190,000. Who's taxes pay the difference?

Indy2 Indy2
Jun '17

I have not seen the budget but I would think it is for every employee on the books up to date - I'm sure someone will correct me if I am incorrect. The point being they have to be able to pay out that line item instantly up to and including the full amount - not sure if they can invest that in something with instant liquidity and reap a small return but unfortunately they have to carry it on the book as debt.

skippy skippy
Jun '17

That's the cumulative number. That's not just 500k this year.

btownguy btownguy
Jun '17

I reviewed the district optimization presentation found on the GMRSD website and find it ironic that for each option outlined there is no specific pro forma budget for each option. So the BOE asked for completion of a survey without supporting numbers. Why is that?

dan l dan l
Jun '17

dan 1

So the BOE asked for completion of a survey without supporting numbers. Why is that?

They don't want you to know that there are other options. They want to continue with the status quo. That way they can keep all of the personnel and raise taxes to the maximum amount each year. And the superintendent can continue to get bonuses for all of these wonderful initiatives.
Here is another option. Close Liberty and save the taxpayers at least 400,000 per year. They can also look into renting Liberty to a private school, which would bring in more revenue. Then they could give the taxpayers some real relief, because they wouldn't have to raise taxes for years. Don't forget that they have 2 million coming back from Hackettstown. The could lower our taxes if they wanted to. They just don't want to.

Indy2 Indy2
Jun '17

dan l

So the BOE asked for completion of a survey without supporting numbers. Why is that?

They don't want you to know that there are other options. They want to continue with the status quo. That way they can keep all of the personnel and raise taxes to the maximum amount each year. And the superintendent can continue to get bonuses for all of these wonderful initiatives.
Here is another option. Close Liberty and save the taxpayers at least 400,000 per year. They can also look into renting Liberty to a private school, which would bring in more revenue. Then they could give the taxpayers some real relief, because they wouldn't have to raise taxes for years. Don't forget that they have 2 million coming back from Hackettstown. They could lower our taxes if they wanted to. They just don't want to.

Indy2 Indy2
Jun '17

INdy you are a complete and utter nut. Now its 2 Million? why not just say 3 or hey how about 4 million?

After this year its $800K owed back what can't you get through your skull? Why do you keep spewing erroneous information?

This has been explained, regionalization was already deemed not to happen at the meetings- you were there! why keep stating that its going to happen?

Why do you keep putting bad info out there?

Pay attention the survey was to initiate a direction of which to explore which means once a direction determined then they put together feasibility study; costs and logistics- good business plan

you should be ashamed of yourself and crawl back into your hole.

pleasestopindy2
Jun '17

Every bit of info is correct. I suspect you are a member of the board or Mango. You just don't want the people to know what you are doing. Typical of this group. No real information given. Just vitriol and name calling.

Indy2 Indy2
Jun '17

Indy2, what private school is looking for space to rent? And whete do your numbers come from?

btownguy btownguy
Jun '17

btownguy,

I said they could look into renting Liberty school, not that I had a tenant ready to go.
The numbers come from information available on the GMRSD web site and from the budget and from boe minutes.

1,989,657. The amount overpaid to Hackettstown. I rounded it up to 2,000,000.

They have made it very clear that because of declining enrollment they can educate all of the children in the two schools. That leaves Liberty school. I estimate the savings to be at least 400,000.
There is no estimate of how much it would cost to keep Liberty open as a special ed. school. The only number given was an estimate of how much tuition they might receive next year. 190,000 in tuition does not cover the cost of keeping Liberty open.

Indy2 Indy2
Jun '17

I would like to see the office of superintendent for both districts demonstrate some semblance of care and concern for the well being of the students, staff, and families for GMR and H'town, rather than solely see all of the decisions made as a matter of dollars and cents, and a way to move district cost savings to his wallet. There's nothing academic in the direction or approach being considered here. It's all financial. There's no piece that addresses programs or student growth and achievement as they would be impacted by any of the options being considered. We must all remember that the ultimate recipient of the outcome of these decisions will be our children and the schools they attend. I would like to see both BOE's make it a point to ensure that the superintendent's contract and bonuses focuses heavily on academic performance rather than how well he cut staff and programs, consolidated services, and saved the districts money that ended up going in his pocket one way or another.

It seems to me that he has lost sight of the Purpose of Schools.

GMR'er GMR'er
Jun '17

The primary purpose (although I'm sure it's not supposed to be the main one) of the super is to meet the requirements for state and federal funding.

Money. Funny how it's always about the money.

justintime justintime
Jun '17

Indy, which is it? Do you ha the numbers or do you not? You can't accurately say the savings will be X and that income of Y will not be enough without having those numbers. Good try though!

GMRer - show up at BOE meetings and make your point known. Squeaky wheel gets the grease.

btownguy btownguy
Jun '17

btownguy,

Indy, which is it? Do you ha the numbers or do you not? You can't accurately say the savings will be X and that income of Y will not be enough without having those numbers. Good try though!

I have tried to be polite with you even though we all know that your only purpose on these threads is to be "The Defender Of The School." I don't work for you. Despite that, I have tried to answer your questions. You asked:
And whete do your numbers come from?
My response:The numbers come from information available on the GMRSD web site and from the budget and from boe minutes. If you wanted specifics perhaps you could have asked the question more clearly. Although your only interest is in refuting everything I will attempt once again to explain it to you.
Because of the decline in enrollment it is now feasible to educate the remaining students at Central and the Middle school. If that happens, certain personnel would still be necessary. The teachers and aides, I assume, would be transferred along with the students. If they closed Liberty, the Principal, custodians, secretaries, cafeteria workers and possibly others would not be necessary.
Principal salary 99,756 plus 1,000 allowance, plus medical benefits 30,000
Custodians (3) at 35,000 per
Secretaries (2) at 40,000 per
Cafeteria (2) at 4,000
ESTIMATED FACILITIES COST 89,000
If you add these costs the total is 412,756
These are estimates taken from the information available on the GMRSD web site.

Indy2 Indy2
Jun '17

Indy, don't get angry at me because your numbers don't add up. I'm sorry that you need to direct your frustration at someone. I'm also sorry that you couldn't comprehend "where did your numbers come from?" I thought I was fairly straight forward with that question. What made it difficult to understand? Was it the word "numbers"?

Since you're transferring enrollment and increasing numbers elsewhere, wouldn't you also need to consider an additional VP or other additional personnel to handle some of the tasks related to the quantity of students at the other location?

btownguy btownguy
Jun '17

Obviously you don't have a calculator. You proved my point.

Indy2 Indy2
Jun '17

Indy2, thanks again for proving my point. I see you've taken the iJay strategy of "make some stuff up with no proof" and run away. As I mentioned, your numbers - you know what they are, right? I know that word confused you before. Anyway, your numbers don't make sense and don't take into account the impact of moving students from one school to another. How will that impact staffing and facilities?

btownguy btownguy
Jun '17

So what is the likely hood. My son will not go to 3rd grade in liberty next yeat


It's usually too late by now to make that type of change for this school year. He will be at liberty.

Justsayin2 Justsayin2
Jul '17

I hope all of you take advantage of the time on that the Mr. Mango is making himself available to speak with any and all citizens of both districts. Stop making up numbers and hypothesizing and get information directly from him.

He also made a very good point on WRNJ the other day, he does not make the decision, he provides the options and makes his recommendations. The school boards make the decision and he has to abide by their directives. Another good reason to pay attention to local elections and vote for people who share your values or you believe will do what is in the best interests of our towns.

~trekster3 ~trekster3
Jul '17

Mr. Mango is a trojan horse. He has an inherent conflict of interest in managing two districts that have opposite needs. As far as providing the options, why has he conveniently omitted the option of closing one of GMR schools and the subsequent savings that would entail? Indy2's numbers are probably low but we will never know because Mango and GMR board don't want to know. Why has Mango not published the results of the on line survey they took? because they did not get the results they wanted. So now they have hired and outside group to conduct a feasibility study to figure out a way to jam what they do want, down the taxpayers throats. I urge all concerned to come to the GMR B.O.E> meeting Tuesday July 18,at 7:00 P.M. at the Middle school.

Hammer Hammer
Jul '17

Geoff the Hammer, when is your meeting with Mango? I assume since you have issues, you've scheduled a meeting.

btownguy btownguy
Jul '17

I listened to Mr. Mango at a township meeting a few months ago. The reason for no closing a school in Independence was a good one to me. Just because the numbers are low now doesn't mean that they won't go back up. I'm at the age where our children are now adults as well as probably most of the rest of the town. Over the past few years we have been moving out of the area and new, younger people are moving in with children, so it's just a matter of time before it goes back to being full again.

Also, if you just close the school you still have to heat it and maintain it.

I think these are good reasons not to close one of our schools.

Magpie Magpie
Jul '17

So if this passes, when will this take place? Will it be coming school year or next year? Hopefully next year so we won't be here!

Sergio Qureshi Sergio Qureshi
Jul '17

There will be no changes for the upcoming school year. The study won't be completed until Sept. then they have to hold public meetings in the fall and finally a vote in January. So could be 18-19 school year or 19-2020 school year at the earliest

Jim L Jim L
Jul '17

2018-2019 or 2019-2020 school year? So basically the same students that were affected, and suffered, the most by the boundary line switch 2 years ago, will be the same students being the guinea pigs for this new genius idea. It's good to see that the Hackettstown BOE has these kids best interest at heart. (Sarcasm) These children already had to sacrifice their comfort, friends, school, clubs, and familiar teachers once, why would they make these kids go through that again?

Summersplash
Jul '17

Summersplash, that's an excellent point to make at a BOE meeting. Hopefully you'll attend.

btownguy btownguy
Jul '17

Survey results for the GMRSD side of things...

https://www.gmrsd.com/cms/lib/NJ01001526/Centricity/Shared/FacilitiesOptimization/GMRSDOptimizationSurveyResults.pdf

Hackettstown results..

https://www.hackettstown.org/cms/lib/NJ01000669/Centricity/Domain/4/Fac_Results.pdf

btownguy btownguy
Jul '17

There will always be guinea pigs. Whether it is that soon or down the road. The kids will be fine, they are with their friends. Back in the 90s when GMR regionalized, starting with September of 1991, 7th and 8th graders from Independence were shipped to HMS for years! Then when GMMS opened the first 8th grade class were the guinea pigs. They ended their 6th grade year at Central, 7th was at HMS, 8th was at GMMS, then they went to HS. That is 4 schools in 4 years for that class. If this goes through and to whatever extent, someone has to be first and the kids will be fine. Just like when GMR went to grade level schools. A 4th grade class finished at Central, went to 5th at Liberty and then 6th at GMMS. The kids, again, were fine. It was the parents who had a difficult time with change. Change is never easy no matter the outcome.

Justsayin2 Justsayin2
Jul '17

I think the current town cultures and great meadows cultures will clash.
GM is mostly stay at home moms and soccer moms.


1991? That was almost 3 decades ago. It doesn't take 26 years, surveys, and studies to know that children learn and thrive best in a stable environment where they feel comfortable. How much pride can a student take in their school, and school work, knowing they will just be sent off to a different one next year?

Summersplash
Jul '17

My point was to say that change is nothing new. The biggest most recent was about 7 years ago with the grade level schools. Parents were up in arms, but those 3rd thru 5th graders were just fine there were no issues and the teachers helped ease the parents worry. Sometimes parents don't give their kids credit. Besides, you are talking about 7th and 8th graders now, who are older and will transition fine.

Justsayin2 Justsayin2
Jul '17

busing all those kids all over h-town will add to the traffic woes which are already out of control down there.

h-town will never willingly accept this ,

mango is pushing, pushing ,pushing his own personal agenda with his boot licking lackeys who know only one thing. build more stuff, raise more taxes, the public be damned.

BrotherDog BrotherDog
Jul '17

Justsayin2.... with all due respect, a big change was 2 years ago, when they moved the boundary line for the elementary schools. 7 and 8 years olds who had been attending a school since they were in kindergarten had to up and change schools with virtually no warning. So you mean to tell me that these little kids that were forced to leave a school, friends, clubs, groups, teachers and routine, didn't suffer at all. It absolutely wasn't "fine with no issues"! Some of those kids were devastated. Also as a step-parent of a 7th grader, I can assure you not every child transitions easily. No matter how much support and reassurance a child gets from parents and teachers, it is really hard to adjust sometimes, and that has a direct impact on learning. You speak in very broad and blind thinking. Bottom line, I hope this new school plan never passes and the children can continue to go to school in the district that they live in.

Summersplash
Jul '17

Yes, the big change for hackettstown was 2 years ago, I am not trying to fight with you but only speak for what I have experienced and seen. I did not mention hackettstown's line adjustment because I didn't experience that. I don't disregard your concerns except simply saying change is always happening whether you can control it or not. If it happens , it happens and you try to handle it with dignity. If it doesn't, then no harm done.

Justsayin2 Justsayin2
Jul '17

Summersplash - So maybe they should raise taxes and build another town school? To plan, referendum, vote, award and build even an addition would take 5 years, which doesn't alleviate the congestion. Please let us in on your solution for overcrowding without this move.

BrotherDog - from what I've read, this idea is the low cost option and will PREVENT Htown from having to raise taxes and build. So what is your point again?

Barnacle Bill
Jul '17

you missed it barnacle bill, or should i call you by your real name, you're either the super or a sitting boe member) your skirts are showing, and it ain;t a pretty sight.

your minds are already made up and public input can be disregarded , the 'survey' is just all for show, clearly you just don't care

BrotherDog BrotherDog
Jul '17

Sorry to disappoint you BrotherDog - but I just like to read before I write.

Again - how does NOT raising taxes and NOT building feed into the "pushing his own personal agenda ... build more stuff, raise more taxes, the public be damned" attitude you attribute to the Supt and BOE?

I'm not the sharpest tool in the shed, but I'm having trouble following your logic. Please clarify so even I can understand.

BTW - I have great legs under my skirt. Don't be jealous.

Barnacle Bill
Jul '17

Barnacle Bill,Mango is a big time Bergen county tax and spender. Despite and over 30% decline in student enrollment (more than 300 students) over the past 10 years, Mango and the GMR board have raised taxes to the max every year since the decline started. Not to mention the 75% drop in senior teachers retiring and the and the lower costs involved in hiring their replacements.This guy and our board are a menace to to the hard working taxpayers of the town.

Hammer Hammer
Jul '17

No one has yet to mention that GMRSD can support itself. We have several options to sustain the independence of our district. Redistricting would only serve to "bail" Hackettstown out.

I have been present at all of the recent BOE meetings. I am well informed on Hackettstown's outstanding debt to Great Meadows. Tuition payments are estimated and the budget takes two years to be reconciled in Trenton, which is how an overpayment of $1.9 million dollars came to be. My issue is not in how this happened, but in how the repayment has been handled and the amount of time it will take.

At a recent and contentious board meeting, Independence and Liberty parents came in droves looking for an explanation. When asked why it would take 4 years to repay the debt, we were told that Hackettstown didn't have the funds. That being said, a representative from Hackettstown told us that they would be holding a referendum meeting to discuss options to pay GM back in a more timely matter. The results of this supposed meeting have yet to be disclosed. Mango, in all of his humble and reasonable glory, responded by telling GM parents that we would be the cause of sports being eliminated at the high school level if we demanded this money back now. First of all, it was incredibly irresponsible and outlandish to place this blame on our parents. Secondly, if this repayment would cause the sports program to crumble at the high school, what impact did our now assumed defecit have on OUR students? More specifically, what have my kids missed out on?

I think the most pressing point in this proposed redistricting is that neither school district wants it! I have yet to find one person in either district that cares for our narcissist Superintendent, or agrees with this proposed course of action. It goes without saying that it's a complete conflict of interest for him to be leading this charge as the Super of both districts. He clearly favors the welfare of Hackettstown over GM. Great Meadows can fully function as an independent district. True, our enrollment has declined, but we have upcoming residential development plans that will bring more young families to the area. We also have the option of bringing in special education tuition revenue. Both of these conditions would be favorable, yet not necessary. GMRSD is self sustainable at this time. We have no immediate need for change of any kind.

Small class sizes is one of the most appealing benefits to our district, it would be an incredible disservice to our students to increase the ratios in our classrooms. For a district that has worked so hard to improve standardized test scores, this would be a very hard hit as well.

Previous commenters have already discussed the other disadvantages including bussing, transition issues, and academic and elective differences; it's not necessary for me to address all of that again. I will, however, reiterate that we DON'T want this. My fear, like many other's, is that we won't have a choice. Mango has been adamant about not wanting to regionalize, but I don't believe it's far off from this redistricting. It's ironic that the board members that seem to be following him blindly, will be eliminated once that happens. Hunterdon County Schools recently regionalized and 34 board members were reduced to 9. Fortunately for the residents of those towns, there was a referendum added to the ballot and taxpayers were able to vote on whether or not they were in favor of the move; we won't be afforded that same luxury. The surveys were fruitless and merely a ploy to make us feel included on a decision that we have no power over.

Our fearless leader was interviewing with other districts only a few months ago. How can we have confidence in a man who is spearheading this intended redistricting but had he been able to sell his house, would have left us to deal with the settling dust?

My plea to all those who are concerned about redistricting and the implications that it will have on both of our towns/districts, is to please make yourself present at the BOE meetings! Mango has to be stopped!


Cmom - Who was he interviewing with?

Also, the overpayment has happened on both sides for years. GM owed Htown just a few years ago.

Busing the kids to fill GM, paying tuition, offset the HS tuition, and allow GMRSD to keep all of its schools open, as well as keeping Htown from having to build, is a win win win no matter how you look at it.

With declining enrollment in GM, the go it alone option would raise your taxes, create no revenue from tuition, force closure of at least one school, and you still have to pay HHS tuition no matter how you slice it.

As for Regionalization, Htown will never go for it. There is zero financial or academic benefit to the town, and absolutely little to no support in town or on either BOE, so you can probably rest easy for now, but stay vigilant.

Hammer - have you asked your questions directly to the Board or Mr Mango? He has office hours all summer I'm told. Go see him.

Longtime Townie
Jul '17

Townie, Hammer doesn't reply to questions. He simply fires his shots and runs away. Probably to his computer business.

I'm also opposed to this plan until there is proof of equalization of programming. If they just move kids, there will be a considerable loss of elective opportunity for HMS kids due to the structure of GMRSD's programming. (This is one area where GMRSD is woefully inefficient).


CMom, cite your source that Mango was interviewing. Why extend your contract if you're trying to leave? Selling a house is not a sign of a move. Maybe he has family further east and wants to be a bit closer?

Also regionalization has to be approved by all districts.

btownguy btownguy
Jul '17

btown guy: yes, formal regionalization needs to go to a vote, but merging grades and extending the send-receive agreement does not. It does however "stack the deck" towards regionalization, Their rationale will be: we already share a Super, we already have HS kids together, we already have MS kids together, etc.

As for the shared Super, I completely agree with CMom. How can one person adequately represent two entities, which have different needs and circumstances?Nothing is a win/win/win.

Please don't insult us further by saying it is the BOE members who make the decision, not Mango. Have you ever heard actual meaningful discussion or debate on an issue? No. Mango makes a recommendation, his disciplines vote accordingly. The few independent thinking board members who do dare to question him are shut right down and labeled obstructionist.

Yes, I have spoken with him in person and CMom's assessment is dead on.

No regrets
Jul '17

CMOM, you should run for a seat on the B.O.E., dead line to place your name on this Novembers ballot is July 31. You can ask for the application from Mango himself. All you need is Twelve signatures and I would be more than happy to be one of them. Just keep in mind this board is run by by three insiders who do not confer with others until you arrive at a meeting to vote. Mr. O'Melia (our board president) is a member of the teachers union. He runs this board as if as if he is a union boss. Most members are intimidated by his antics and you either vote the union line or face his wrath.He is easily the most boorish B.O.E. president that we have ever had. LONGTIME TOWNIE, as a student of the game of politics, I am well aware of Mr. Mango's talents of spinning the subject to where he wants to position you in silencing your opposition. He is quite good at it. It is pointless to go in and speak to him,when the crucial issues to be considered (in my case laying off teachers and closing down a school) are not even being discussed. This is deliberately being done because it is an outcome he and this the board to want not to talk about. Another point, that is somewhat more palatable than any of the others being discussed, is RENTING excess space in one of our schools(Central?). Interestingly, Mr. Mango did bring this up at the July Hackettstown B.O.E.meeting. As far as I am concerned this is the one winning option for all sides. Hackettstown will get a fair rate for renting space and one that is far cheaper than any other alternatives. Mr Mango and the GMR board get to keep there bloated budget in place. I as a taxpayer keep Mr. Havalush from playing his three card monte game with his sending district slush fund formula.NO REGRETS is spot on with his assessment of the way things are being handled by Mango. Mango has deliberately narrowed the scope of the study so he can eliminate all others. This is a scheme to incrementally start the process of regionalization. It would be a taxpayer disaster for GMR.

Hammer Hammer
Jul '17

Hammer, what groups are looking to rent school space? Without internet, it's all "what ifs" and "we could". We could rent it out! Or we could spend money to upkeep and lose on the low or no interest on renting.

btownguy btownguy
Jul '17

With the 1.9 overpayment, GMR could have employed their own Superintendent who protects our interests. Magno clearly has his own agenda which does not have the best interest of GMR first.

There is one day left to get your name on the ballots to make a difference.

IndyFB1 IndyFB1
Jul '17

Longtime Townie- As I addressed it in my post above, my issue was not with the overpayment itself. It is a common occurence and the reconciliation process is slow to catch the inconsistencies. My issue comes with the manner in which it was handled by Mango (making empty threats about GM taking sports away from the high school) as well as the schedule for repayment. And, just for the record, it is of great debate as to whether GM owed Hackettstown or whether Hackettstown owed GM years ago. Apparetly, no one seems to be able to provide concrete evidence of who overpaid. That being said, it really is inconsequential because the debt was reconciled and it certainly didn't take four years to do so, interest free! As for your win-win-win scenario, I respectfully disagree. GM's enrollment hasn't declined so rapidly that we could not continue to keep all of our schools' open at this time. And, we would much prefer to close one of our schools rather than be a part of this redistricting. As I mentioned above, Independence is about to break ground on new one, two, and three bedroom apartments, which would draw new families to our area. Additionally, let's be real, our taxes increase every year, that won't stop no matter what happens here. As for your tuition theory, it won't at all be beneficial to Hackettstown, and they are the ones that need the bailout. The tuition that H'town would have to pay to GM for the middle school would cancel out about half of what GM would pay to the high school for tuition. Therefore, there would be less revenue for the district with the biggest need. Factor in the cost of bussing transportation and it's a no win situation. Sure, there will be the loss of teacher's salaries and support staff, but we will see that in both districts. The loss of teachers and staff will not be unilateral to H'town. The only way that H'town would be able to pull this off would be a large tax increase to their residents and with the headaches that will come along with this redistricting (the traffic alone!!), I don't see that going over well! As for the regionlization, it's closer than you think. Sure, both districts would have to agree and vote, but with the proposal of six grades levels combining (7,8,9,10,11,12), we aren't that far off from being there already. It's Mango's underhanded way of regionalizing without having a box on the ballot!

btownguy- I will protect my source, but I can tell you that they are 210% trustworthy. I would not have mentioned Mango interviewing elsewhere if I didn't know that it was accurate information. In the Spring, Mango interviewed with Hope Township School District. He never made it past the first interview round. Mango did not seek approval for a five year contract extension until the June 13th GM BOE meeting, which was later addressed at a closed meeting in July.

Hammer- I really appreciate your confidence in me, I take that as a great compliment coming from you! I don't typically comment on these boards (case in point, it took me over a week to respond), but I often read the topics that interest me, such as this. You can be a little tough sometimes. I don't always agree with you, but I respect and value your opinion on this topic. You are not the first person to encourage me to run for the BOE, and I have considered it, but politics is not for me. I refuse to be under Mango's thumb as many of those board members are. I often joke that I would rather be the antagonist. I am wise to O'Melia. He is defensive and aggresive and behaves like a two year old whenever challenged. This man equated what may have been an ill timed sarcastic remark about torches and pitchforks, to a death threat. I have a tremendous amount of respect for the community members who volunteer their time and efforts for the benefit of our children's education, but I do believe that many of these board members protect their own interests rather than the well being of our students. Part of their responsibility is to represent the concerns of the parents and we are certainly being failed on this issue.


I honestly fail to understand how anyone could mistake this redistricting for anything other than a railroading by Mango. He has a "savior" complex and wants nothing more than to look like a "hero" who saved two districts. It is a total conflict of interest to have this man as Superintendent of both school districts. If he weren't, both districts would resolve their own issues independently; the way that it should be. GM will bounce back in terms of enrollment and we WILL face overcrowding should this redistricting take place. What will happen to Hackettstown then? This will just become a series of events that needs to be repaired over and over again. It's just like slapping one band-aid on top of the other.

Lastly, I just want to address the "cultural differences" between the districts. I'm not sure when or how this line was drawn. I don't have any ill feelings towards the residents of Hackettstown. I've read comments about GM having a lot of stay at home moms, which to me implies that we are being portrayed as either stuck up or having more time on our hands; please, correct me if I'm wrong. I really don't see how that has anything to do with the redistricting. There doesn't have to be a divide here. We aren't the Sharks and the Jets. We are parents who want the best interest of our children represented. If we focus on the petty, and turn this into a turf war, the cause at hand will be lost. I have good friends in Hackettstown, who want, or in this case, don't want the same things as me. I want my children to to have the education that I intended for them, uninterrupted by a major change that I find to be fruitless and unproductive.


CMom, Hope has had the same Superintendent for the last five years and he will continue into next year. So how can he interview for a job opening that doesn't exist?

btownguy btownguy
Aug '17

U r correct btown guy. Mike Slattery has been there for years n was named superintendent of the year this year for warren county. Hope had a principal opening which would have been a 100,000 dollar pay cut for mango.

Justsayin2 Justsayin2
Aug '17

Oh come on but Cmom is 210% sure of her sources

Luca brasi
Aug '17

I had also heard that he interviewed in Hope.


Justsayin, the pay cut would have been in 5 digits, not 6.

btownguy btownguy
Aug '17

I trust my source and I know this to be the truth (all 210% Luca brasi). People are removed or leave for reasons that are not made public right away. If you look at Hope's BOE minutes, you will see that they have not posted anything since April. Coincidence? Maybe, maybe not. I know that Mango interviewed for the position. Like I said before, I would not post a rumor or information that I did not know to be factual. If you choose not to believe me, that's ok. I don't need the validation!


CMom, there was never a Superintendent position open at Hope. Furthermore, with a little research, you'd know that Hope and White share a Super. No mention of anything there either.

As for the minutes, it's not unusual for districts to fall behind. What did Hope say when you contacted them And requested a copy?

btownguy btownguy
Aug '17

Btown guy, you're adamant that the interview didn't take place; I'm positive that it did. I don't see how not mentioning White township somehow proves me wrong or why you would assume that I would have to do "a little research". I'm already aware of the shared super, thank you. Furthermore, I didn't mention White township because Mango interviewed with HOPE, the detail that you seem concerned with is inconsequential. In fact, I find this derailment of the original topic to be inconsequential. I simply brought up the interview to highlight Mango's lack of commitment. Unfortunately, now we are stuck with him. My concern is the possibility of redistricting and that is what I choose to focus on. I'm not interested in arguing with anyone. It seems that you are. Like I said, I don't need the validation. If you don't mind, I would like to know what your vested interest is with regards to this topic. Are you a parent? Tax payer? Board member?


CMom, let's use our brains here. If the Super is shared between Hope and White, and the suler is planning to leave, wouldn't both districts be in on the search or have some mention of it? I'm sorry that you find a shared services agreement inconsequential.

If you have proof, please tell us. Otherwise this is another case of "I know this is true" and we've heard that before from tin foil hat wearers only to be find out they were wrong!

To answer your very argumentative comments from someone that "doesn't want to argue", I'm a tax payer.

btownguy btownguy
Aug '17

could be you're wrong, about a lot of things, you have offered zero proof of any kind.

but yet you keep defending the high tax status quo like you know what you are talking about when you don't, that's known as 'keeping the faith'

time to open both your eyes and look around at what's really happening here.

BrotherDog BrotherDog
Aug '17

Thanks for your support BD.

btownguy btownguy
Aug '17

Btown guy I was rounding, with mangos merit pay n other extras,u figure he is around 200,000. The new guy, the principal- was hired around 100,000 give or take on both he was a teacher from frelinghysen , no worries.
Mango would not go from superintendent to principal. No superintendent would. Mango did not interview this spring in Hope. Years ago he interviewed, but Slattery got the position. My source: a current boe member on the hope board.

Justsayin2 Justsayin2
Aug '17

"If the Super is shared between Hope and White, and the suler is planning to leave, wouldn't both districts be in on the search or have some mention of it?"

Perhaps he interviewed AT Hope with members of BOTH Hope and White Townships present? It wouldn't make sense to interview the same person twice individually, would it?

ianimal ianimal
Aug '17

good point Ian, certainly makes more sense than what btown pontificated with no sources, no proof and no credibility, but yet he just keeps yakin' the party line like a self-appointed education expert, and it's too bad as i was hoping we would shed ourselves of this orange jacketed mango and his board of bullies,

BrotherDog BrotherDog
Aug '17

BD, are you drinking from the iJay kook aid? Delving into personal attacks? Tsk tsk. People only do that when they've been proven wrong...

I have no more proof than Cmom. Actually, I take that back. I have more proof thanks to the existing board minutes, google searches and justaayin2's comments. So, try again?

btownguy btownguy
Aug '17

so it's possible it could have happened and you just don't know it, correct?

BrotherDog BrotherDog
Aug '17

The survey at Great Meadows website clearly shows, we do not want ANY changes.

(We WOULD like our 1.9 million dollars back from Hackettstown.)


BD, it's slightly more likely that it didn't happen, given the statement of justsayin2.

btownguy btownguy
Aug '17

Cmom said - "I am wise to O'Melia. He is defensive and aggresive and behaves like a two year old whenever challenged. This man equated what may have been an ill timed sarcastic remark about torches and pitchforks, to a death threat. I have a tremendous amount of respect for the community members who volunteer their time and efforts for the benefit of our children's education, but I do believe that many of these board members protect their own interests rather than the well being of our students. Part of their responsibility is to represent the concerns of the parents and we are certainly being failed on this issue."


+1 Cmom; many in the community agree with your assessment. you are spot on correct. please reconsider running for the board.

BrotherDog BrotherDog
Aug '17

Who else makes this type of money in Warren County. This is CORRUPTION, besides the fact that there are too many Superintendents. Other industries are removing layers of upper management as you only have layers of know-nothings and do-nothings. If it didn't cost the taxpayers I wouldn't care.


Btown guy. First, I'm sorry that you found my post to be argumentative, that wasn't my intention. Second, you've misunderstood or misconstrued what I said. My point was to say that the topic of Mango interviewing with Hope is inconsequential, along with the entire argument, because he didn't get the job and has extended his contract with H'town and GM. We are stuck with him and going back and forth about whether or not you choose to believe that it happened has no bearing on what will happen next with this redistricting. I chose to bring it up because it shed some light on his dedication to this project. You are strong in your conviction that it didn't happen. I could prove it, but at the risk of putting someone else in the middle, and I choose not to do so. It's very closed minded of you to believe that there is no circumstance in which the interview could have taken place, but sooner or later all things come to light. A little ironic that you will take JustSayin at their word, but I guess it wouldn't be unrealistic for you to stick with someone with the same views as yourself. By the way, bac heard about the interview, too. Does that make my statement more plausible?

Now, to "use my brain". You say that you are a taxpayer. While that is most certainly true, your past comments lead me to believe that you have far more vested interest in this redistricting. Your concern for the vastly different elective programs in HMS and GMMS tells me that you probably have school aged children OR you work closely with the schools. You were acutely aware of the 6 day schedule at GMMS and the frequency in which HMS has electives, which isn't necessarily common knowledge. Furthermore, it's fair to say that most parents, in both districts, do not like Mango. In fact, it wouldn't be far fetched to use the term disdain. You, on the other hand, are quick to come to his defense. It's almost as if you might be under that "thumb" that I mentioned. When the news of the overpayment first broke on here, you defended board members as if it were a personal attack.....

BrotherDog- thank you for your support and back up! I appreciate it and your confidence in me. Regardless of who sits on the board, we as parents need to stick together. I hope that I can count on you to join me at the next BOE meeting.


CMom, you can assume I'm under his thumb but you would one again be incorrect. I wish I could call myself an educator, but I am not. I don't work in education but do believe educators are one of our valuable resources.

As for my knowledge of the programs at the schools and education in general, I have siblings that have children in the schools (GM and HTown). They did their homework. I also do my homework. When issues come up, I take time to research. Schools are the most Important element of our society and I like to be well versed in something like that.

btownguy btownguy
Aug '17

"A little ironic that you will take JustSayin at their word, but I guess it wouldn't be unrealistic for you to stick with someone with the same views as yourself."

bingo, spot on correct, +1


"it's fair to say that most parents, in both districts, do not like Mango. In fact, it wouldn't be far fetched to use the term disdain. You, on the other hand, are quick to come to his defense."

very true statements here, + 1 again, he always supports the BOEs, the high tax rates, and the nonsense in the public school system, fervently believing all that they say like an adherent in a religious cult. and he is not a taxpayer in the district. doesn't live here and could care less about your tax burden.

when is mango going to sew the century 21 patch back on his orange jacket? (oh yeah, that's right, real estate not a good thing to go into in this district of declining home values due to the high tax rates imposed by the school system, he'd lose his shirt in this market)

BrotherDog BrotherDog
Aug '17

BD, how ironic that you're sticking with someone with the same (incorrect) views as yourself. Pot calling the kettle black?

Clearly you've not read all of my posts and are making blanket assumptions about my views and opinions. I get it. It's okay. I'd expect nothing less from someone with nothing to contribute other than personal attacks. We all know what happens when we assume... thanks for proving the adage true!

btownguy btownguy
Aug '17

i stand by my statements , they are valid and to the point,

BrotherDog BrotherDog
Aug '17

Btown guy- a difference of opinion is not a personal attack. Telling people to use their brains, calling them nuts, and blasting someone for "firing shots and then running away", would all classify as such. Your hypocrisy is astounding. What I don't understand is, if you are not a resident of any of the towns affected, and are not on either of the boards, then why are you here? Can't you find someone at home to argue with? For the record, I am an educator (certified teacher currently not working) and have the upmost respect for the people who mold the minds of my children. The teachers don't want to see this redistricting happen any more than the parents do. Teachers will lose their jobs under this proposal, which is one of the many reasons why I don't want to see this happen. Mango is not an educator, he is a politician. The board members are not educators, they are his minions. So the question begs to be asked; why are you protecting these non-educators under the veil of respect for educators?


CMom, Btown guy is a leftist who believes in the power of government unions to control your money via taxation. He and /or spouse are probably a member(s) of the N.E.A. or some other government union. He is on this blog to defend their right to extort money from the taxpayer. His points are so contorted that they are not worth responding to, which is why i don't. I suggest you do the same.

Hammer Hammer
Aug '17

CMom, you must understand, that the only way you will change the outcome of what it is that you want, is thru the political process. You have two members of this present board that would be more than sympathetic to your points of view. You need to find someone who will run for the board as a write in candidate. There is tremendous amount of angst among the GMR electorate over what is going with this board. Seasoned citizens who would come out in numbers to support any change for the better. I would be 100% behind any effort to do so. Everyone has now received their property tax bill and it was a large increase. This is on top of the $2 million dollars we were over taxed to begin with. You have lots of ammo to affect the needed change. If not you, then hopefully someone else reading this post.

Hammer Hammer
Aug '17

I don't get it Hammer - why don't YOU run for the board?

I would appreciate just a direct no nonsense answer please.

A non answer will surely speak volumes.

Longtime Townie
Aug '17

Hammer doesn't respond to my points because he has no logical response. I don't believe he's ever addressed my points because he knows I'm right.

As for why he doesn't run, probably due to his spouse being a BOE member already.

btownguy btownguy
Aug '17

Wish every town in NJ could opt out of NJEA extortion:

http://www.latimes.com/politics/la-pol-ca-loyalton-calpers-pension-problems-20170806-htmlstory.html


Longtime Townie,This system was built and meant to eat up and spit out people like me. The mere fact that this state allows members of the N.E.A. and or their spouses/family members to sit on B.O.E., with this inherent conflict of interest, speaks volumes of where I am coming from. The GMR B.O.E. has been run by all of the above for the past 30 years and climbing. I can write on for pages of the outrages I have seen our board commit thru the years. It is quite frankly disgusting and I want no part of fighting the Socialist agenda in this state or any where else, I want to flee from it. As a recent example of my list of outrages, the recent over payment of $2 million to Hackettstown. Mr. Havlush never explained to the taxpayers how, for four consecutive years, we managed to overpay this amount. He explained how they arrive at the YEARLY amount but not how this mistake was perpetuated for four consecutive years nor how, when and who found out about this. We have a superintendent who clearly has a conflict of interest in representing G.M.R. and is given a new contract. Not to be forgotten, Our Board president, Mr. O'Melia, a full card carrying member of the N.E.A..My time of staying in the district is drawing to a close. I,like many before me and after, are looking to leave this state with it's onerous taxation. It will be up to those who stay to decide their fate.

Hammer Hammer
Aug '17

Townie, Geoff the Hammer neglected to mention that there was a lengthy PowerPoint and presentation discussing the budgetary process and how the overpayment developed. Spoilers - it's because the of the acounty procedures.

But sure, go ahead and ignore facts and answers that were presented to you, Hammer. If you put your head on the sand, then it doesn't exist right?

btownguy btownguy
Aug '17

You are a serious insider btownguy, no way around it.


"Our Board president, Mr. O'Melia, a full card carrying member of the N.E.A..My time of staying in the district is drawing to a close. I,like many before me and after, are looking to leave this state with it's onerous taxation." - hammer


+1, the high taxes are driving down home values and driving out long time families who have lived here for generations,

something's got to give, reducing costs by examining the budget with a critical eye might one good start, closing an unused school building might be another, but with the NJEA agenda in charge over there with the bullying of long time residents used as a SOP , there's little to no chance of that ever happening, and they know it.

time to pull the ripcord i think

BrotherDog BrotherDog
Aug '17

Ahh yes, because I took time to become an educated member of the public and ask questions, I must be an insider.

BD, what's your solution?

btownguy btownguy
Aug '17

you don't live or pay taxes in the district but you are closely related to someone who does work in the school system, and you are quite wrong about many of the posters you keep calling out , revealing what you think is personal information about them, but your're wrong and you just don't know how wrong you actually are, makes me laugh every time you do it.

BrotherDog BrotherDog
Aug '17

BD, so many wrong statements there. So much falseness. Your attempts are cute. Keep it up. Makes me laugh.

btownguy btownguy
Aug '17

interesting, you repeat just what i said to you, and now you're lying and being dishonest, you have no credibility whatsoever, and yet you keep on posting, we're on to you,

BrotherDog BrotherDog
Aug '17

BD, I love how you're taking what I say, copying it and then claiming I'm repeating it. I posed a question and you ignored it entirely. Guess you're more interested in arguing nonsense information like iNay and Hammie than actually discussing solutions. Quality contribution!

btownguy btownguy
Aug '17

you keep repeating what i posted to you and now are falsely claiming it as yours? give me break young man, that's delusional, you keep lying and you're just not following along,

believe me we are on to you,

i stand by my statements, they are accurate and to the point:

you don't live or pay taxes in the district but you are closely related to someone who does work in the school system, you have skin in the game and benefit from the taxpayers through your family relation. and since you don't live in this school district you really don't have a clue as to the financial burden placed on the local taxpayers by school taxes that increase more than than the legal limit, (by the use of loopholes)

you are quite wrong about many of the posters you keep calling out , revealing what you think is personal information about them, but you're wrong and you just don't know how wrong you actually are

time for you to take a breath and think things through, you are free to pm if you like, but I am not sure you're ready for that.

BrotherDog BrotherDog
Aug '17

"+1, the high taxes are driving down home values and driving out long time families who have lived here for generations" I get what you are saying, but once again generalizing and simplifying a complex situation ends up with a pile of sludge.

First, NJ has very high taxes, but we are 7th in % burden with 15 states or more within 10% of our burden, so good luck moving --- be careful out there.

My point is doubtful that any amount of pruning will put a huge dent in the overall burden. At least based on competitive states.

Second, therefore "high taxes are driving down home values" is probably a miscalculation or miscommunication. If you said high property taxes, you might have a point, but I think our location drives pricing a heck of a lot more than taxes where Hackettstown and surrounds probably has an advantage over much of the next available surrounding areas.

That said, our property taxes are too high because they are not competitive with other states. We have the second highest property taxes in the US and you only need to move two states lower to save 10%. At $10K a year, $1K savings looks pretty good as a reason to move. Especially if you are older and property taxes now represent you largest piece of the NJ tax pie (given you are retired, have what you need so not rolling up the sales tax, etc.). I have often said NJ is no place for old men in that only the up and rising younger workers can face these property taxes.

So....that said....while I don't expect our total tax burden to change (sorry BDog), I just don't see why the Trenton idiots don't shift the burden away from property like every other freaking state in the Union and the District.... Mr. Mango, the BOE, whatever are pretty much small change against how NJ allocates the tax burden across all the taxable elements.

Here's the tax burden by state: https://wallethub.com/edu/states-with-highest-lowest-tax-burden/20494/

strangerdanger strangerdanger
Aug '17

BD, it's incredible to me how you and your crew keep coming back to the same points.

-I do live locally and am a local taxpayer. Despite your claim, my tax dollars benefit HHS and GMMS

-I do not work in nor do I have have any familial connections to anyone working in the local schools. As I've said many times before, I do have friends that are educators (not locally though). I've really taken the time to be an informed member of the public and understand how schools work.

I also would like to point out that once again I have answered your claims and you've ignored mine. Thanks for contributing to the topic of discussion.

btownguy btownguy
Aug '17

stop with the nonsense and the misinformation, i'm calling you out on your lies, i stand by my statements, you don't live in the district nor do you pay local property taxes to the district, an you do personally have a stake in the GMRSD

btw, my taxes, as do all taxpayers in the the state including yours (if you own property), also help pay for the schools up in blairstown and out in belvidere and p-burg, you are still lying through your teeth and we are on to you.

pm me to continue this conversation.

BrotherDog BrotherDog
Aug '17

yes i should have been clearer in saying , "high taxes are driving down home values" , when it is the high property taxes in GMRSD that are driving down home values in the district.

the school taxes in this district are so high and burdensome that they are driving out long time residents, and driving down home resale values,

this is why so many homes are for sale in this town right now, people are fleeing the school district because of predatory property taxes levied by the current BOE and mango.

BrotherDog BrotherDog
Aug '17

How do we stop this? Well, if you are an "insider" or a relative is, you get many times more in excessive compensation than you are overtaxed like the rest of us. There is zero incentive for "insiders" to change anything.

Logically, it makes no sense that btownguy has no "insider" influence. I have stated this, BD the same. I call bullshi! if you declare otherwise...


I've alluded to this many times before in past posts.... btown guy=mango

H-town Mama H-town Mama
Aug '17

Makes sense. Smart man but not too smart to be so one-sided and declare no skin in the game...


Lol. Really? if you've read my posts, you know that sometimes I agree with him and/or the BOE and sometimes I don't. I'm not him.

I'm loving the attacks and continued dismissal of the topic at hand. Can we assume that you have no thoughts on how to rectify the issues as hand?

btownguy btownguy
Aug '17

Strangerdanger, I am not leaving my home for a $1,000 dollars in tax savings. I would suggest you broaden your analysis to individual states. One of those states I am looking at (as well as many others from New Jersey) is the state of Delaware. They have NO SALES TAX and property taxes that are substantially below NJ. I have a relative who has a 5 Bedroom 3 Bath home paying $2,600 a year in property tax. Now that is a state worth moving to. Over the past year, people that I know personally from the GMR district,3 have moved to Florida with a fourth heading there once his home is sold,2 have moved to NC, and one to SC.

Hammer Hammer
Aug '17

Hammer - I am sure Home Depot has openings in FL

Luca brasi
Aug '17

btownguy, only an insider would have a position as intense as yours. Logically, nothing else would make sense.


Mango is meeting with people to point out how wise this merger will be financially.

He WILL NOT HEAR the Taxpayers, who chose to live Great Meadows (NOT Hackettstown) because we Liked the GM Culture.

Hard Working Parents chose a Country Life, (NOT the Town life) GM has Lots of Stay-at-Home Moms.


Hehehe.
IJay tried to use logic.
It failed.

btownguy btownguy
Aug '17

I understand that the leadership in both towns are not to happy with Mr. Mango's regionalization scheme, I cannot understand why? I tell you this right now, the fix is in. They are going to cram this right down our throats.

hammer hammer
Aug '17

I don't know why anyone even bothers to engage with btown guy. I would put money on him being Ed O'Melia. They are both defensive, lash out at those who oppose them, and sink to immature responses when feeling threatened. To be honest, I would prefer this to the alternative suggestion that he is an out of towner who has no stake in this claim. I have has literally lost sleep over this issue. I'm sure that I am not the only parent who has spent an exorbitant amount of time worrying about what the effects of this redistricting would have on my children and their education. I would hate to think that btown guy is just someone trolling out of town message boards looking to pick a fight with anyone who will engage him.

Back to what is important here; there is a GM Board of Education meeting tomorrow night, August 22nd at 7pm. Let's be a part of the solution and hold our board members and superintendent accountable for the decisions that they are making on behalf of our district. We have to make our voices heard!


Cmom

If you go to the meeting, could you post your observations for those of us who can't be there tonight? I agree with you 100% about Btown. That's why I stopped responding to him. The agenda for the meeting tonight is not on the website yet. The agenda should be up for days before a meeting to allow residents the ability to study it. They just don't want people to know what they are doing. I believe we can make better decisions when we have all of the data and facts and not just what they choose to tell us.


Here are a few facts from the DOE data base.
In 2006-07 Hackettstown had 1890 students. In 2016-17 Hackettstown had 1923 students. I was surprised that the increase was only 33 students considering the push they have going to send students to Independence.
Why is this suddenly a critical situation?

In 2016-17 the number of 7th and 8th grade students in HMS was a total of 198.
In 2117-18 the number is appx. 203.
That is an increase of 5 students or 2-3 per grade. Why would Hackettstown want to go through the expense of busing for a few students?
Have the BOE or Mango given an estimate of how much this will cost?

We need real information, not just their spin.

Indy2 Indy2
Aug '17

Indy 2, do you have the same information for the Great Meadows Middle School?

Michele Morpeth Michele Morpeth
Aug '17

Indy2, as I understand it, the overcrowding in Hackettstown is supposedly at the elementary schools, grade k-4. Moving the 7th & 8th grades would free up some space. I don't know how those numbers compare, nor wether this is just a short term problem. It seems that Mr. Mango has come up with a new restructuring idea repeatedly over the past few years, it almost seems like he wants to make changes just o make changes.


As bac mentioned, the overcrowding is at the elementary schools. Hatchery went from having 2 Kindergarten classes just a few years ago to 4 now.

Also there are 3 residential projects that have been approved to build in town and the boards are using those projected #s when considering potential future students.

Jim L. Jim L.
Aug '17

Hatchery Hill went from 2 to 4 because they took 2 classes away from Willow Grove. The question is why? There was no need to do it.

Sport
Aug '17

GMRSD has had a decrease in enrollment of appx. 400 students over the last 8 years. In the feasibility study they made it clear that they could educate all of our students in the 2 schools, leaving Liberty school unnecessary to our needs. Hackettstown could rent Liberty school from GM and it would solve the overcrowding problem for years to come. It's a solution for both districts. We don't need to pay for a school that we don't need to use and Hackettstown can take some time to look for long term solutions to the increase that may come with residential building projects.

Indy2 Indy2
Aug '17

Michele,

All of the data is available on the nj doe website. I haven't charted it for GM, but it is easily done.
http://www.nj.gov/education/data/

Just go to enrollments and pick the year and district you are interested in.

Indy2 Indy2
Aug '17

"Hatchery Hill went from 2 to 4 because they took 2 classes away from Willow Grove. The question is why? There was no need to do it."


??? Willow Grove has 3 Kindergarten classes. They had 3 before the line change. Hatchery didn't take any classes away from them. Students moved schools due to the line change in town and it was done because Willow was busting at its seams. But Hatchery has gone from 2 to 3 to now 4 K classes.

Jim L. Jim L.
Aug '17

Indy2 I will definitely post my observations from tonight. As I understand it, the overcrowding in Hackettstown is at the elementary level, not the middle school. Hackettstown supposedly had the opportunity to purchase or rent the school at St. Mary's, but as of late, Mango has made it seem as if that wasn't a viable option. Odd that it was included as a solution on their survey.

As for the residential projects that Jim is speaking of, I'm wondering why Hackettstown is using those projections to influence the study, but Mango and the GM Board won't factor in the impending residential projects in Independence as a potential boost to our enrollment?


I got stuck at work late tonight and couldn't make it to the meeting. New boss! Is there anyone who can fill us in on what happened tonight? Any word on the feasibility study?


CMom - your eyes are turning brown.

It's a pain in the butt to attend these meetings isn't it? That's why no one runs for the board of ed.

Longtime Townie
Aug '17

Lilli-
Hard Working Parents chose a Country Life, (NOT the Town life) GM has Lots of Stay-at-Home Moms.

I Guess they stayed home

Luca brasi
Aug '17

Longtime townie I'm not understanding? Why are my eyes turning brown?


Cmom,

If the Great Meadows BOE meeting was similar to last week's Hackettstown BOE meeting then you didn't miss anything regarding the feasibility study.
The study has not been finalized yet. There will be joint town meetings in November to discuss the findings.

Jim L. Jim L.
Aug '17

Cmom -

I think LTT means you're full of cr*p for missing the meeting.

Talk the talk, walk the walk. Words to live by.

Barnacle Bill
Aug '17

Understood. First one that I've missed in quite some time. Would have wanted to be there but I have to put food on the table; imagine that! From what I've heard, there were only about 4 people in attendance, other than the board and administrators, and the open meeting lasted less than 30 minutes. Unfortunately, people are on vacation, have emergencies, or get stuck at work and then sit in too much traffic. Call me a hypocrite or full of cra*p if you'd like, but I am far more involved than most! I had every intention of being there and would have much preferred to be there rather than stuck in an office. Life happens! If everyone who was on here sharing opinions actually showed up to the meetings, there would be a packed gymnasium.

Thank you, Jim L. I've heard that the joint meeting about the feasibility study will be on November 21st. I've already taken the day off of work, just in case! I have a walk to walk!


Overpaid Superintendents:

http://www.foxbusiness.com/politics/2013/03/19/superintendent-pay-at-top-class.html


Over a year ago, before his current contract was approved:

https://patch.com/new-jersey/chatham/all-nj-school-superintendents-salaries-2016-ranked-highest-lowest


Cmom -

Here was part of my response from 6 days ago to another post referencing the same article:

" For what its worth, that article is wrong. The article is from 2016 and the $167,500 was his total salary under the cap in place at the time, of which $67,500 was paid by GM and the $100,000 was paid by Hackettstown under the shared services agreement. A similar agreement under the new Contract and cap is in place and can be accessed on the district website:

https://www.hackettstown.org/Page/7566

All of these agreements are public record and accessible to anyone."

further:

"I welcome any thoughts you or anyone reading might have; please feel free to contact me at my board email sburke@hackettstown.org. While I don't speak for the board, only myself, I'd be happy to address any concerns or questions I'm able to answer regarding the Hackettstown BOE."

Just keep in mind there is a lot of misinformation out there. I recommend contacting the BOE or Superintendents office yourself and make your own informed decision.

Sincerely,

Shawn

Shawn Burke Shawn Burke
Aug '17

Bordi and all his clowns fail to manage a school budget for years. GMRSD manages to a budget and now we have to bail out Hackettstown? Why? What benefit is it to GMRSD children? NOTHING! GMRSD passes it budget every year and we are going to lose the smaller class sizes and hometown feeling of a smaller school. Call it what you want but the curriculum in Hackettstown is less then GMRSD and Allamuchy. Those students carry the High School. What about property values? What about the large majority of immigrants in Hackettstown that English is the second language? Where are our Town Councils in this?

Time to vote out the current members on the BOE. Time to get write in candidates. Two are up for Independence, 1 for Liberty. VOTE them out and change the board dynamics. Bill VonderHarr is the only candidate who consistently shows up for the meetings and challenges.

IndyFB1 IndyFB1
Aug '17

Shawn, I have to be honest, those numbers and the terms of his contract are even scarier than those in the article that I posted. It's truly sickening!

I appreciate your candor and your willingness to hear from concerned parents and community members. That is what is missing from the GM BOE. It's frustrating to feel as though decisions that impact your children are being made unilaterally and with no regard for the opinions of the mass majority. A lot of the contempt in GM could be avoided if the board could empathize with the feelings of the parents. We elect these board members trusting that they will represent our needs, wants, and best interests. Unfortunately, it feels as though we are completely powerless and have absolutely no say in the education of our children.


Mr. Burke,"there is a lot of misinformation out there" If it wasn't for this post/web site the only information that would be out there is Mr. Mango's deliberate spin to allow what he and our GMR B.O.E. want to cram down our throats. This should be openly discussed at public meetings not in Mango's private office. Nice to see more people getting involved on this post. It is free speech at it's best. Way to go Hackettstown Life!

hammer hammer
Aug '17

While I don't normally like to post on these forums and through the years I have taken way too many personal attacks to both my family and personally, buts lets set the record straight.

Hammer, you have continually put out misinformation. You know fool well whats going on, a study is being conducted and has been public knowledge and shared in a variety of ways: Radio Interviews; Public board meetings; mayor meetings and Teachers union representatives who are all impacted in what the RESULTS may or may not determine. So its disingenuous to say this is being rammed without public input is a total and complete false statement. Mr. Mango has made himself available all summer to meet with folks so that this information is disseminated accurately not through someones personal agenda, such as yours.

Additionally all meetings, in Hackettstown, are transparent and available for viewing very shortly after the meeting for public to view in case people can't attend, nothing to hide.

Both boards have scheduled joint meetings of the boards to review the results in public, no one will have any "inside" information and the second meeting of BOTH boards will be held in January after REORG to make an educated thought out decision.

While you continually look to focus on $$, lets focus on whats best educationally as well and see what the study shows.

You have blasted us for taking FUTURE developments into consideration but frankly speaking waiting is not an option, its inevitable that these developments will come to fruition so the boards are taking a proactive approach to prepare for the impact by having the study done to make informed decisions for the future of both districts.

I know that the tax impact to Indy is great but look as some more facts, do you think the INDY taxpayer is getting a bad deal? Then i would suggest that you push the GM board to look into sending students to Belvedere. Have you been there? Nice folks out there but i don't think the BHS can compare to HHS in many ways.

For those, INDY, in particular, who state we can't manage a budget in Hackettstown again false info. Did any one bother to read the independent audit reports of the last 3 years? NO - i know you didn't - but go back to video tape or read the audits which have stated, Hackettstown has done a phenomenal job managing the budget, this is tribute to the hard working folks on our board.

Also, look at the tuition cost per pupil, one of the lowest in state for schools our size. THAT IS A FACT.

So continue to push your personal agenda its getting old.

I have a great suggestion for many people, come to the meetings get involved stop making excuses. We listen. I only hope that you listen to reason and take the emotion out of decision process and do what best for EVERYONE but especially student education, not just your tax dollars.

I hope that the results of this study provide great information for both districts to make an informed decision of what to do going forward. But until the study is completed and public discussion is heard on those results its a waste of time and energy to continue this debate without seeing the results.

Call me e mail me have said a million times get involved.

Gus Bordi
Hackettstown BOE
President

Gus bordi Gus bordi
Aug '17

Mr. Bordi. I seem to be receiving one hell of a lot attention from various board members for someone who is disseminating "misinformation" on this blog. The fact is, what I write is the truth, other wise you and others would not be responding to it. Is it "misinformation" that GMR over paid $2 million in taxes to Hackettstown? Is our Board President a member of the N.E.A.? Did the Independence tax payers receive (on average) a $200 increase in our school taxes this month despite being owed the $2 miilion ?Has the GMR enrollment dropped by over 300 students the past 10 years and the corresponding drop in tuition to Hackettstown went where? Has the retirement of close to three quarters of senior teachers (over the same time period)taken place and where did that money go to?Why have school taxes gone up for over 25 years straight with these demographics? Why is the feasibility study only considering the one option that Mr. Mango wants? Why is the closing of a school in GMR not being considered? Mr. Mango has an inherent conflict of interest in representing GMR,why has he not recused himself from this decision?Why would any taxpayer from GMR want to implement another a sending district payment scheme after the results of the last one? Why is renting our available space not one of the options of the feasibility study?Why even proceed with this feasibility study when the vast majority of both districts said they wanted to keep things as they were? Lastly, in your own words I am going to prove what a rigged game this is. You stated"You have blasted us for taking future developments into consideration but frankly speaking waiting is not an option,ITS INEVITABLE THAT THESE DEVELOPMENTS WILL COME TO FRUITION SO THE BOARDS ARE TAKING A PROACTIVE APPROACH TO PREPARE FOR THE IMPACT BY HAVING THE STUDY DONE". As I have stated before, this decision is being railroaded down the taxpayers throats, whether they like it or not.

hammer hammer
Aug '17

Hammie Sammich,

Most of your questions can be answered by having a meeting with Mango. Conveniently enough, he's had an open office most of the summer. I assume since you're a caring (LOL) individual you've set a meeting. What were the answers he provided?

btownguy btownguy
Aug '17

LOL open office. Don't they get 40+ work from home days so basically little work being done. Don't try to fight it btownguy, the truth is the truth. Guys like you are trying to raise the position of Superintendent to that of a CEO, LOL...


An open office all summer? Mango has allotted 3 hours a week total, an hour and a half on Tuesday and Thursday mornings.

Let us at the very least, praise Mr. Bordi for using his real name instead of trolling this forum topic pretending not to be a board member or Mango. That is something that I can respect.

That being said, Mr. Bordi, the majority of parents who are opposed to redistricting are more concerned with our children's educational well being than the tax ramifications. The bottom line is that it is an incredible conflict of interest to have Mango serving as Superintendent of both districts with regard to this issue. The concerns facing both districts should be solved independently. GM has more favorable options and we should not be forced into something for the benefit of your district. This is an attempt to regionalize without a box on the ballot. If this redistricting takes place, we will have 6 out of 13 grades combined, other than having shared debt, what makes this solution different than regionalizing, other than a public ballot? It's clear that public opinion doesn't seem to factor into this decision. Mango has made it clear that doing nothing is not an option, so why even do the surveys? It's all smoke and mirrors. This is a runaway train and it's terrifying for parents. We have no control over our children's education. If the boards would stop telling us that we were misinformed, let down this defensive wall and empathize with our concerns, we would have a far less contentious attitude. I have not attended one board meeting where my concerns have been heard and understood. Instead, I've heard the word "misinformed" more times than I can count and then a narrative about why I'm wrong.

Hammer, I share in your enthusiasm for the public getting involved on this forum. But, I would be even more excited if those who have concerns would attend the BOE meetings. I see the same faces every month and it's typically a crowd under 10.


Regarding education at the high school, is the only foreign language (besides English) .... Spanish? Is French totally cut? Been trolling the BOE site and not finding anything.

Dsl1929 Dsl1929
Aug '17

iJay, you're clearly not paying attention to any information posted on the Htown or GM district websites.

"Mr. Mango is available to meet with anyone who is interested in discussing the future of our facilities, demographics, and/or budget from July 17, 2017 through August 31, 2017 on Tuesdays-Thursdays from 10:30am-12pm. Please contact Dawn McPeek at (908) 852-2800 ext. 231 to schedule an appointment either in person or on the phone."

So don't try to fight the truth iNay, the truth is the truth.

btownguy btownguy
Aug '17

CMom, if you put your glasses on you'll see that it says "Tuesday - Thursday" meaning 3 days, not 2. That's 4.5 hours. Assuming he's working a 40 hour work week, that's 10% of his time per week.

And CMom, what did Mango say during your meeting with him?

btownguy btownguy
Aug '17

I don't pay attention to their site. My comments are only about NJ public school excesses. This is a fact. You can deny it, call me anti-teacher, etc. The truth be the truth. Nobody but insiders would agree with you. You are an insider, this is a fact. Nobody could defend such excesses other than an insider...


He will meet with you to explain why it is financially positive to combine both school districts even though neither one wants to combine.
Of course the numbers add up.
The lifestyle and the culture are what does not add up.
The people of Hackettstown have a completely different culture from the people from Great Meadows.
Town people vs Meadows people.
Not too hard to imagine the differences.
But mango will not hear this.
So GM gets to PAY again.


Dsl, you are correct, the only foreign language offered is Spanish. I think it is sad that a high school of nearly 1,000 students only offers one language.


Lili, while I agree with you that neither district wants to combine, your argument is not productive or conducive. First, the numbers do not add up. But more concerning, this is not an issue of social standing. I really wish that you would stop bringing up stay at home moms and cultural differences. No one is better than anyone else or should be made to feel as though they are not "good enough" to be accepted. As a GM parent, I am offended by what you continue to say. Eventually, these kids will all meet at the high school level, so you will have to adapt to this eventually. The issues that come with this redistricting have nothing to do with the students and parents who live mere feet from us in some areas. There is no "vs" here!


iJay confirms what we all knew - he doesn't pay attention to local facts.

CMom, what did Mango say at your meeting? Since you're so concerned you obviously took advantage of his open office hours, right?

btownguy btownguy
Aug '17

"The people of Hackettstown have a completely different culture from the people from Great Meadows."

Um. What? Are you saying this to be funny? If not, please feel free to share how the "cultures" are "completely different."

Rebecka Rebecka
Aug '17

Lili - that is such a racist statement.

You obviously aren't involved in any little league sports. These kids are on all the same teams now. The parents get along the kids get along. I grew up here. The Meadows, Allamuchy, Liberty and the town have always been pretty much one community for the 50 years I've been here.

Just say it - you don't want your kids going to school with the ESL kids until it's absolutely necessary.

Do us a favor - keep your elitist snobbery to yourself and send your kids to private school so they can be with "your own kind".

Longtime Townie
Aug '17

We are all appalled by Lili's statements! There is no place for that kind of ignorance and bigotry.


My reasons for not wanting a larger regional district are the same as they were 20 years ago for not wanting a GM regional district - a bigger district, more students, more staff, more admin, less personal. When Liberty and Independence were separate districts, there were only 2 classes of each grade, maybe 20 teachers and a handful of administrators. Everyone knew each other, the teachers knew all of the kids - not just the ones in their class, parents knew each other, kids all knew each other even in different grades. Mr. Doney and Mr. Piperata knew all the students and parents by name. That was the appeal of living in a small town with a small school district.
Now, there are 5 classes of each grade, a thousand families, dozens of teachers who have no idea who the kids are, administrators who don't the families. It feels like an institution and not a community.
So no, I don't want to add more students, more families, more staff. The "cultural differences" previously mentioned has nothing to do with it. They could be 1000 families in the same demographic as my own and I would still vote against it.
Why is Allamuchy not being mentioned in any of these scenarios? They are also sending district to HHS. Is it because they didn't buy into the Mango Fan Club and actually think for themselves? Good for them!

No regrets
Aug '17

thought this article from the StarLedger made some good points:

quoted from the article: "Why does this happen, even in the face of rage over property taxes? Because in many towns and cities, the unions are the most powerful local political force. Their allies have won elections and awarded them generous contracts. In effect, the unions sit on both sides of the negotiating table."

http://www.nj.com/opinion/index.ssf/2017/08/will_phil_murphy_be_a_union_yes-man_editorial.html

BrotherDog BrotherDog
Aug '17

Not to be flip, but who doesn't sit on two sides of any negotiating table?

Strangerdanger Strangerdanger
Aug '17

BrotherDog, great link to that Star Ledger editorial. I had to double check that this was actually written by the Star Ledger as they have been constantly trumpeting big government/socialist policies for the decades I have lived in this state. Quite frankly they as much as anybody, are responsible for the highest property taxes in the country. It is shocking that even they realize that the system is out of control.

hammer hammer
Aug '17

Re: Independence, Liberty and Hackettstown School Survey

thought this meme made a good point as well :

BrotherDog BrotherDog
Aug '17

Hammer, the problem with our property taxes is historical and inertia. In the scheme of things, when they were set and the entire state tax structure formulated, it made sense. Now that all states have moved above from property as the main means to provide tax revenue, NJ stands out as competitively high. That's an inertia problem.

Our entire tax bundle is more of less in line with other highly developed states, only the property tax sticks out as totally uncompetitive. The effect is mostly on seniors who can afford to choose states to live in with lower rates.

Not sure where the newspaper comes in as a supporter or originator of any of this.

IMO it's not the question of: "are property taxes to high;" that's obvious even to the casual observer. The question is why the inertia to change it. No one is asking (at least with the same volume) for less total state taxes. Everyone is asking for lower property taxes.

So. IMO, it's not a what to do question, it's the inertia behind the actual math work to do it.

http://www.nj.com/politics/index.ssf/2017/02/7_reasons_why_njs_property_taxes_are_highest_in_us.html
Look at this NJ.com story explaining the reasons the property tax is too high. The first three I say: busted --- we ain't the most expensive, the most dense, whatever --- we do have the highest property taxes in the Union.

Number 4 is the reason ---- we choose to pay for lots of stuff from property taxes that other states do not. They use other taxes to pay for it which puts us in a uncompetitive situation especially for attracting people who don't live in NJ for work, like seniors.

Number 5 is the second reason --- we love to manage stuff rinky-dink on a town by town basis. That's just adding cost insult upon high density injury.

Number 6 is the third reason --- can't fix the past but can clean it up ASAP for the future.

And number 7 is as bogus as the other "it's tougher in NJ" crap earlier. Our education costs are high but not totally out of line. And we do deliver some of the best education in the nation so we are getting results.

Thus I say it's inertia; we are primarily looking for a shift in how NJ funds itself to move away from reliance on property moving such receipts to other taxable elements in our tax portfolio. Just get competitive with other states. While everyone knows it, our legislature just does not seem to want to roll up it's sleeves and do the work.

Here's how: currently property taxes plus other taxes equal total nj tax revenues. That's the math.

NOW lower property taxes to be competitive with other states while increasing other state taxes to be revenue neutral to current revenues.

Done.

strangerdanger strangerdanger
Aug '17

hammer said - " Quite frankly they as much as anybody, are responsible for the highest property taxes in the country. It is shocking that even they realize that the system is out of control."

agreed, spot on correct

BrotherDog BrotherDog
Aug '17

When I was in Middle school the 7&8 graders from great meadows would attend Htown middle school. I dont know when they stopped coming to our school.
What ever happens it should be interesting. I have a few yrs before my kids enter middle school.

cherbear cherbear
Aug '17

Strangerdanger, the problem is the government unions are to powerful. They own the politicians down in Trenton and just about every where else. Shifting the tax burden onto someone else is not the solution,cutting big government is.

hammer hammer
Sep '17

I'm pretty sickened by the responses on this thread. While I understand that this is a heated topic, many of you are so rude to other people. And who are some of you to 'call out' others? Many of you should be ashamed at how you are carrying on. It's disgusting.

Snowmeiser
Sep '17

Yes hammer. Special Interests (lobbying) is what has destroyed this country. John and Jane Doe don't have a voice in government. You have to join a "gang" to get represented and then it is under the ways of that "gang." Where is the representation for the average person to have fair taxes and a government being reasonable. I guess it is all a "Point Of View" situation. E.g. you are a teacher then you stick with NJEA because for this person it offers much more good than bad. I could go on and on but where did our elected representative system go wrong? We all know if you try to contact and meet a representative it is not likely they will have time for you unless you have something for them -- votes in mass, campaign money, etc. And even if you do meet them it will go nowhere as previously mentioned (no votes in mass, money, etc.).

Snowmeiser, as far as being rude? What is rude is the way this country has been run which I see no difference for nearly 50 years. It is "rude" to expect people top keep "taking it" with their mouths shut!


"Strangerdanger, the problem is the government unions are to powerful. They own the politicians down in Trenton and just about every where else. Shifting the tax burden onto someone else is not the solution,cutting big government is."

Really? Somehow you construe this to be the Union's fault? What do they gain by funding via property taxes? What is the Union's stand on property taxes? You seem to be saying --- they love it? Do they?

Actually shifting the tax burden onto someone else is EXACTLY the solution. Otherwise, I and most of the other seniors in this state won't be. That's right: we have FU money and can leave!

I agree that cutting big government, oh heck, big anything is good. No duh on that one. But how does that shift the tax burden? It might cut the burden but it does not shift it. You seem confused on the differences between tax amount and tax structure. But iJay not only agrees, he conflates the concept to the entire country. See !!! I was right to conflate it to big anything! As to the rest of iJay's ramblin rant, I will only comment of that which is germane to our topic. Done :>)

strangerdanger strangerdanger
Sep '17

Strangerdanger, You have to be kidding me with this convoluted statement "What do they gain by funding via property taxes" How about 75% or more of our property tax bill going to those very same unions. These very same unions get guaranteed pay increases every year, Rolls Royce health care we peons can only dream about and a pension plan second to none. All of it guaranteed by you and me and all of it made possible by are crony politicians in Trenton. Your solution masks the problem it does not solve it.

hammer hammer
Sep '17

Yes hammer. Like Christie said, the have-nots paying for the haves. You cannot honestly convince me that this class of worker deserves this preferential treatment. Enough is enough. It is unaffordable. Only affordable to the "insiders" who get one hell of a deal...


No Hammer, I really meant what I said. Whether or not schools are funded by property taxes does not, and will not, change the amount paid to teachers. Tax structure, government expenses and teacher pay and benefits are different things.

Of course I did agree with you that big government bad, even said big anything bad, and have no issue with getting rid of double dipping, non-competitive health and pension plans, etc. I think Americans in general are stupid to think 401s are better than pensions but that die is cast, so NJ should be competitive with the rest of stupid America. Together, we have killed the pension.

But your error in logic is to assume that if teacher got paid less, have less benefits, that somehow your property taxes would decrease. We have the highest property taxes in the land. Who's to say that if you get what you want that we would still not have the highest property taxes in the world?

As I have noted many times, NJ has the best education system in the land. Guess what --- quality ain't cheap. When you prune away these expenses you want to, how much do you expect to save: 10%, 20%, or something wild like 50%. My point has been even after pruning the expenses, you will still pay a higher price than most state's unless you want to potentially lower the quality of education. Matter of fact, we are in the middle of the pack for expense against other higher quality education states. Under the current tax structure which relies on property tax (unlike the other 49 states), your property taxes will probably still be the highest in the land. And any mobile NJ citizen, that is a citizen who is not tied to this geography for income, will look to move to a state with lower property taxes ---- not necessarily lower taxes, but lower property taxes.

Shift the burden? Shifting the property tax to other taxes will indeed shift the burden. It will shift the burden to be competitive with the other 49 states instead of our current non-competitive tax status. You can't tell me it will shift the burden unfairly unless you feel the other 49 states are unfair. Certainly you can't feel the current structure is fair? Once seniors turn 62 or 66 1/2, look to see their asses crossing the border to save a few thousand every year. And then you will need to pay even more taxes. How is that shift grabbing you?

strangerdanger strangerdanger
Sep '17

Our educational system in the United States needs a complete overhaul.
WIth the technology we now have, a wide variety of Computer Educational Programs already in place, the success shown thru the Homeschool movement, and willingness to " do school differently" by utilizing a combination of teaching sources, school taxes could be drastically reduced, but not eliminated. It is just a matter of time.

Spring Fever Spring Fever
Sep '17

I'll see your complete overhaul and raise you (if that's even technically possible :>)

We need to teach and train kids to our current world, not some 1950's culture. Computers, virtual work and meetings, team management, database use and management, and much more has changed than we don't really teach to.

Most important, the days of "get a good factory job and be part of the middle class" are gone. Dead. And Trump or anyone else is lying if they say we can bring it back. Technology, not NAFTA, has killed it. We are in the post industrial economic phase and we need to educate folks to deal with it, to excel in it, and to profit by it. That means a different type of education.

Somehow this happening without equal or greater taxes sounds oxymoronic BUT it don't have to be property taxes ---- that's a choice.

strangerdanger strangerdanger
Sep '17

springfever said -

"Our educational system in the United States needs a complete overhaul.
WIth the technology we now have, a wide variety of Computer Educational Programs already in place, the success shown thru the Homeschool movement, and willingness to " do school differently" by utilizing a combination of teaching sources, school taxes could be drastically reduced, but not eliminated. It is just a matter of time.

Spring Fever"


+1 good points, the rise of homeschooling and charter schools is finally putting a damper on the outrageous hubris of the public education system.

parents are increasingly exercising their free choices in new ways and it's driving the NJEA to hysterical distraction. this is a good trend. and it's is accelerating.

thanks spring fever you are quite correct. (as usual)

BrotherDog BrotherDog
Sep '17

Actually, schools are teaching those techniques and skills you mentioned, SD, starting with very basic understandings as young as in elementary school. Children in early elementary school learn to work in teams and lead teams. By third grade are participating in debates. By highschool age are part of teams writing and working through all kinds of technology related team projects including producing films. Robotics is big these days in high schools too...and so much more. There are ways to cut costs though without eliminating vital skills development. But it would impact the way we currently do things in education.

Spring Fever Spring Fever
Sep '17

FYI: Express-Times Legal Notices for Sept. 8th.

Joint Board of Education Meeting planned for November 21st, 7pm, at Great Meadows Regional Middle School to present findings of the joint feasibility study.

I don't know if anyone on this blog would be interested.

Thanks.

( Yea, I actually read those things sometimes.) ;)

JBJSKJ JBJSKJ
Sep '17

Why isn't anyone saying anything about the fact that MOST state aid goes to 31 school districts. If we all received proper shares of state $ local taxes would go down.

Oh... and the state aid comes out of your pockets in the first place. Newark and Camden thank you.

twentytwenty
Sep '17

Very true, twenty, twenty.

Spring Fever Spring Fever
Sep '17

So our aid is improper?

Ever notice how "actually" is a backhanded way of saying "you're wrong?"

Actually.....that's great that new technologies and communication skills (teaming) are being taught. Mission accomplished? So what were you asking for?

You might have missed my point. I agree with your comments and thanks for the update that we have been teaching technology and other relevant skills for some time; yet we still teach for the industrial age using industrial age techniques. Our economy has moved beyond the industrial age and our educational system needs to train to be competitive in that new environment. Tomorrow's economic leaders will come from the art of creation, not production. Invention, not manufacture. My point was not only to use and teach current tools and communication methods, but that we need to learn to educate and train for our new economy --- one that succeeds by inventing the bigger, better, thing. That's a tough thing to do.

strangerdanger strangerdanger
Sep '17

"it don't have to be property taxes"

You're right. It could be state aid which is from sales tax, income tax etc. Which goes to the 31.

How about a Municipal Income Tax instead of property tax. Sound ok?

twentytwenty
Sep '17

Strangerdanger, you state many true things which I agree with,however in order to keep with my main point of the government union monopoly in this state and how it is able to extort money from the taxpayer I would suggest the following. 1.) eliminate any N.E.A. members and immediate family from being members of any school board. 2.) eliminate tenure. 3.)eliminate binding arbitration from all contract negotiations. 3.)all state aid will be distributed on a even per student basis. 4.) ban all union donations from contributing to any politician or political party. 5.) And if #4 is not legal, allow union members to contribute to the party of their choice or to opt out all together from this choice. 6.) if Trenton raises the budget,the corresponding increase in that budget must go to state aid. 7. eliminate "abbott" districts. Of course , all of the above will never happen nor will shifting the burden of paying for it. There for that leaves us with the one thing which we both agree upon and that is to pack up and leave.

hammer hammer
Sep '17

One last point Strangerdanger. You stated "We have the highest property taxes in the land. Who is to say that if you get what you want that we would still not have the highest property taxes in the world". You are exactly right! and I can offer no finer example of how true that statement is then are present GMR budget. We are owed 2 million dollars,we have had 25 to 30 straight years of tax increases with an over thirty percent drop in enrollment and over 75% of our senior teachers retiring and we still had our taxes increased by over $200 per household this past year. The system is rigged against the tax payer, no doubt about it. The only choice you have is to leave.

hammer hammer
Sep '17

'Inspirational' robots to begin replacing teachers within 10 years


Robots will begin replacing teachers in the classroom within the next ten years as part of a revolution in one-to-one learning, a leading educationalist has predicted.

Sir Anthony Seldon, Vice-Chancellor of the University of Buckingham, said intelligent machines that adapt to suit the learning styles of individual children will soon render traditional academic teaching all but redundant.


http://www.telegraph.co.uk/science/2017/09/11/inspirational-robots-begin-replacing-teachers-within-10-years/

BrotherDog BrotherDog
Sep '17

Again Hammer, no one should dispute that spending money unwisely is not wise.

How much reduction do you expect with the changes you recommend?

How much more does NJ spend than other top rated states for education?

strangerdanger strangerdanger
Sep '17

hammer said - "I can offer no finer example of how true that statement is then are present GMR budget. We are owed 2 million dollars,we have had 25 to 30 straight years of tax increases with an over thirty percent drop in enrollment and over 75% of our senior teachers retiring and we still had our taxes increased by over $200 per household this past year. The system is rigged against the tax payer, no doubt about it. The only choice you have is to leave."


spot on correct, the current BOE and mango are driving good families out of their homes and their community that they have been an active part of for generations.

point: " thirty percent drop in enrollment"

point: "over 75% of our senior teachers retiring"

point: "We are owed 2 million dollars" (overpaid to Hackettstown, they owe it back)

question: Why does the current BOE and their bully of a superintendent continue to raise the taxes the maximum amount every single year? Why ??

it's past time to call these guys out on all their BS

BrotherDog BrotherDog
Sep '17

Strangerdanger, I really hate debating sophists. You flip back and forth between support and critic on the same issue. You cannot change the system by maintaining the status quo and the amount of dollars spent does not equate to a better educational outcome. As proof,just look at the billions of dollars spent in this state on the "Abbott" districts over the past 30 years.

hammer hammer
Sep '17

Let's take a look at the Hammie Commamdments...

"1.) eliminate any N.E.A. members and immediate family from being members of any school board"

Why? Because you believe they cannot be impartial? One BOE member/vote will not always guide the entire slate. Locally, we have seen educators serve as BOE members and they were not as biased as you may believe. I would think that you would not want to limit those with educational experience and training from making educational decisions.

It's like politicians making educational decisions. They'll only make the right ones because they have no skin in the game! Like NCLB.... or PARCC... you know, those successes? Lol.


"2.) eliminate tenure."

Why? Is it because you believe it's too difficult to remove ineffective or poor teachers? That notion I can agree with, as Last In First Out is a bogus policy. However, if removed what prevents a good educator from being removed for a petty reason? Why not modify tenure? There should be some level of protection for teachers, especially the good ones.

"3.)eliminate binding arbitration from all contract negotiations. "

And what benefit would that have?

"3.)all state aid will be distributed on a even per student basis. "

Don't know if I agree with this 100%. Do we need to revise the funding formula? Yes. More of our money needs to stay in our towns. I understand allotting a small amount to help the districts that may need, but we should be keeping most of our tax dollar. Not the Abbotts.

"4.) ban all union donations from contributing to any politician or political party."

You're going to ban all unions in this country from contributing to any politician or political party? I expect you to require the same enforcement on corporations as well then.


"5.) And if #4 is not legal, allow union members to contribute to the party of their choice or to opt out all together from this choice. "

Union members can use their own money to contribute to the party of their own choice. Or they cannot. What money you pay to a Union or other professional organization, you receive benefits and actions you may or may not agree with.

"6.) if Trenton raises the budget,the corresponding increase in that budget must go to state aid."

So if Trenton spends more on education, it should go to State aid? That goes along with revisiting and reworking the funding formula.

" 7. eliminate "abbott" districts."

See, there is one point we agree with. Eliminate Abbotts and spread the wealth. That would have real impacts statewide, so why not lead a charge for that?

btownguy btownguy
Sep '17

So leave your excessive compensation and just go after excessive Abbotts funding -- expected answer...


Another Great (worthless) contribution from iJay. Good job pal.

btownguy btownguy
Sep '17

Again: so what does all this stuff save us $$$$? I mean shouldn't we know the effect before we pull the trigger?

strangerdanger strangerdanger
Sep '17

GMR has experienced a thirty percent drop in enrollment

GMR has experienced a large turnover in staff with over 75% of their senior teachers retiring. A younger workforce has a much lower average salary. What did the board do with all the extra money they didn't really need?

GMR Is owed 2 million dollars in over paid school taxes from Hackettstown. Why did GMR keep raising taxes when they didn't need to? The BOE should return the money not used or needed back to the taxpayers directly in the form of a lower tax assessment. period!

Why does the current BOE and their crass, abusive superintendent continue to raise taxes the maximum amount every single year?

BrotherDog BrotherDog
Sep '17

Why can't you answer any of your own questions? What is the payroll pre and post the occurrence you note? How much lower? How much extra? I mean I don't want to research this for you if it's only a nit and not "all the extra" you allude to but can't state?

And the $2M. Really, there is no plan yet? They haven't explained it ad nausea yet? Could be right but hard to believe.

Who doesn't raise taxes the minimum maximum allowed each year? Now perhaps you see the fallacy of mandatory tax maximum limits. Just about takes the entire responsibility monkey off the backs of those you pay to be responsible. Its as if you conservatives are voting for tax revenue entitlements. You know, free money for not having personal responsibility. Ironic ain't it? :>)

Just saying....

strangerdanger strangerdanger
Sep '17

GMR Is owed 2 million dollars in overpaid school taxes from Hackettstown.

Why did they keep raising taxes when they didn't need to?

The BOE should return the money not used and not needed back to the taxpayers directly in the form of a lower tax assessment. So far they have kept all of the money themselves.

BrotherDog BrotherDog
Sep '17

I'm an Independence resident. And I understand many of the senior teachers have retired and the newer replacement teachers are lower on the pay scale. But where does the retired teachers' pension money come from? Is it not our tax dollars? I could be wrong, but I thought it was. Also they have Medicare and supplemental insurance premiums paid by us for life. So the fact that they have retired and have been replaced by teachers on a lower pay scale, hurts us as far as taxes go. Please correct me if I am wrong.

Parental Unit Parental Unit
Sep '17

Again PU, you put a bunch of words on paper and conclude its worse. Without numbers, we don't know.

Fyi--We all pay Medicare premiums for everyone. No diff there. Its the supplemental adders above Medicare that's a payment post age 65. We pay for pension too but people die and we stop paying. So.....I am sure hammer and the Dog have those factored in too :-)

Bottom line, without numbers we just don't know.

Strangerdanger Strangerdanger
Sep '17

btownguy tell the truth about your link to education...


pu

no local taxes go to the pension or medical funding of retiree benefits

twentytwenty
Sep '17

thx 20-20 , you are spot on correct,

the BOE should return the extra money they collected and didn't truly need back to the taxpayers directly in the form of a lower tax assessment.

BrotherDog BrotherDog
Sep '17

I agree BD. If we owed money and they needed it they would do a mid tax year adjustment. Two sets of rules?

Let's get a law team on this. Barry Scheck etc.

twentytwenty
Sep '17

There's no link there, iJay. We've been through this before.

btownguy btownguy
Sep '17

So what did they do with it?

strangerdanger strangerdanger
Sep '17

Strangerdanger, I don't know if you are on Medicare, but I have a payment deducted from my Social Security check for my Medicare benefit before I ever get it. To my knowledge teachers, as well as any kind of government employee does not have this deduction. And I also pay for a supplemental policy of my choice after I receive my SS, which again supplement benefit is provided to retired teachers. I don't have numbers, but I'm almost positive this is the case. I said to correct me if I was wrong. I don't appreciate your condescending tone. If Medicare is a "free" benefit, I would like to know, since I am being charged for mine.

twentytwenty If retirement benefits do not come out of tax dollars, can you tell me where the money does come from? I am curious as to where the money originates. I assumed it came from tax dollars. My mistake.

Parental Unit Parental Unit
Sep '17

Of course this is costing us. Excessive benefits and headcount accumulated over years. To shed this in the public sector is a difficult task but a worthy one...


PU

Teachers, like everyone else, have the full deductions for SS, medicare etc. taken out of their paychecks.

Retirement funding for the teachers pension includes a 7% payroll deduction taken out of ALL current BOE employees (that's a lot of bread!) and supposed funding from the state, which has been neglected for years.

The State LOVED controlling the Pension system when inflation was high and they could make tons of money investing the $80B and doing what they wanted with the money. (ie. Gov. Whitman raided the teacher's pension fund to create and fund the Homestead rebate program). Now that the state has underfunded the system, never repaid the $ taken out for the HRP, and can't get the high returns they used to get, they've cleverly dumped it all on the teacher's, cops etc. Why would they do that?????......... because it's easier to do that than to tell the truth.

The state used the pension fund as a slush fund for decades banking on the revenue to continue to exceed the cost. When they pay back ALL that they "stole" with proper return on investment, the fund will be super healthy and of no interest to most people..


.

twentytwenty
Sep '17

Sorry to come off sounding condescending PU; you were just the latest author to spout out some fun facts without any substantiation leading to your, what appears now, erroneous conclusion (which may still be right even though a number of the underlying facts are not). How could I correct you, you offered no substantiation. I was not going to do the work for you.....sorry again.

Teachers pay Medicare tax at the same rate as you and I, I am pretty sure, and it's like 1.45%. Supplemental policies differ between organizations, not sure if NJ teachers get any.

My point PU, was: "Bottom line, without numbers we just don't know" and this point was directed at the thread, not just you. Sorry you felt the bullet.

stranngerdanger stranngerdanger
Sep '17

7% is a large contribution? It is a sliver for the benefits received...


IJ

7% of all working teachers, cops. You do the math. It's enough to pay those who are collecting.

It's the contributors money... all of it... plus what you owe if you ever received a homestead rebate. Yes, based on your logic you benefitted and never paid in a penny from your paycheck

No one ever got a thank you when their pension was raided to give out billions in homestead rebates to people like you.

Also.. your college didn't offer teaching or criminal justice degrees??

twentytwenty
Sep '17

sd

It appears that we are on the same page.

twentytwenty
Sep '17

7% contribution is competitive with private market pensions.

The real issue with pensions is that they are not competitive to begin with. 401ks have replaced them.

Previously, companies offered pensions not because they were magnanimous but because they got a tax break. Then then dropped all the expensive management of the pension, lowered their contribution by structuring the 401k as a profit plan, and still get a tax break. Now, they only pay out big time on good years, and you carry the load for bad years. There is no guaranteed outcome no matter how long you slave at the salt mine.

Kind of doubt the state gets a tax break, but should quit the pension going forward just because they are not needed to be competitive to attract talented workers. The employee contribution, usually matched by the employer, is also around 7% fyi.

Now, I work in a very competitive field and we have pensions (now capped), 401ks, options, bonuses, yippppeeee ----- I'd like to say it's better, but since they are all profit plans now, it depends on the economy and our revenues. There is no guaranteed retirement funding from the company anymore.

So why should NJ offer one?

PS: I think this sucks, but this is what non-state-working America opted for. Personally, I think we should all be ashamed. When they said stand up, we stood down. I am just glad I saw this coming in the 1970's and have moved to protect at least me and my kids, who won't get the retirement bundle I did, from it. As to my grandkids, I hope I have trained my kids well.

strangerdanger strangerdanger
Sep '17

The state pension plan is billions of dollars under funded,it will never be able to pay anywhere near the promised benefits. They project returns of 7.75% forever.The last 3 years returns have been 3%,1% and 0% which means they now have to make up the short fall for those years in subsequent years. In today's low interest rate world this cannot be done without taking enormous risks. All pension plans are at risk,especially government ones.

hammer hammer
Sep '17

hammer Thank You. You're right.

The underfunding is all on the state. They enjoyed being banker when they could raid the fund of Billions. When it started to struggle they cleverly spun it to blame those "greedy pensioners". Propaganda at its best. Simplify and repeat........

The Big lie is always the most believable.

twentytwenty
Sep '17

Just because "The state pension plan is billions of dollars under funded" concluding "it will never be able to pay anywhere near the promised benefits" is an opinion, not a fact. Not saying they aren't in deep kaka, but a break in benefit commitments is not an absolute. And this has nothing to do with what we do for future obligations; these are separable issues in the pension.

FYI, where did you find: "The last 3 years returns have been 3%,1% and 0%" which I take it to mean they made 3% last year. I mean 0% would defy imagination. Throwing a dart would get you better results. But your numbers don't mesh with the NJ Govt report which states: "Over the last five years, our annualized return has been 6.6%."

For this year, July 2016 to July 2017, as of May 25, "New Jersey's public worker pension fund on Wednesday reported that investment returns have topped 10 percent for the first 10 months of the fiscal year that began in July."

Further, "In today's low interest rate world this cannot be done without taking enormous risks" is just blatantly wrong for a portfolio like the NJ pension. They ain't buying CDs and if you can't clear 10% over the past 24-months, you are very bad.

Most certainly, "pension plans are at risk, especially" ones that are spent like NJ's. Private sector pensions have insurance which saves them in a normal year but could never weather a massive default. NJ has absolutely no insurance depending instead "on the kindness of strangers," i.e. the federal government. There is no roadmap, guarantee, nor precedent for a state bankruptcy, much less expected the federal government to bail them out. For the private sector, I figured in 2008 they were toast, but I was very, very, wrong. Apparently these professional pension fund managers are pretty good and weathered The Great Recession pretty well.

Fact is there are two issues with the NJ pension. First the current obligations for which we have been robbing the piggy bank for years to the point of affecting our overall credit rating. You may think there's less benefits coming but good luck in retroactively stealing benefits. I am pretty sure we are on the hook with not much beyond your whining to be done except to pay up.

Second, the pension plan going forward. While I am saddened by the choice, at time point my conclusion is that we have to be competitive with other work alternatives meaning ----- just structure it as a 401K and be done with it. And yes, hammer, here you can probably cut the amount of the benefit going forward since it's a gallons to liters sort of move and most would not even notice some pruning of the pension benefit as it morphs into a 401K. Not sure how they will work the profit sharing aspect many private company 401ks have :>)

strangerdanger strangerdanger
Sep '17

Upcoming Elections

There has been a LOT of talk on here regarding the BOE. As everyone is aware we are on the brink of upcoming Elections. Currently there are two positions open for the Independence seats on the GMRSD BOE with three candidates running. Of the three candidates there are two running who have young children within the school system.and therefore have IMHO a legitimate vested interest in doing what is best for the future generation of GMRSD students.

The third, by the name of Susan Cullen currently has no other interest within the school system and therefore is only interested in doing what is right for her pocket. She has been known in the past to vote for items that would create detrimental situations for the children. She has also been extremely vocal about her preference for an option that would close a school completely. This would increase class sizes, reduce teachers and eliminate the potential for an increase in enrichment opportunities for the children involved. She and her husband have been releasing false information from board meetings with their alternative truths for years.

So please, please in November when you vote remember her motives and choose the other two candidates, knowing that their reasoning and hearts are where you would expect the School Board to be. With the children.

Tiredofthelies
Sep '17

What is going to happen with Allamuchy?? Panther Valley keeps building....no way everyone is fitting at htown high in 10 years....

Htown Htown
Sep '17

Hmm, good info tiredofthelies. I bet we know one of them on here... Hammer.

btownguy btownguy
Sep '17

Btown guy
I have heard rumors of the hammer being one of the Cullens or their cronies. When looking at the BS he posts it would be suspected that it might be as such, however, I can not be verified and it really doesn't matter. Until more people attend the BOE mtgs and really listen to understand what is happening they will never know the truth. Unfortunately the ignorance among these people stands in their way of reason. Thank goodness they are not the people actually making the decisions, that is why it is imperative to remove such ignorance from the board by NOT VOTING FOR SUSAN CULLEN IN NOVEMBER!!

Tiredofthelies
Sep '17

Well, are the Hammers numbers regading the declining enrollment and retiring senior teachers wrong or are they lies? Just asking.

kb2755 kb2755
Sep '17

Interesting. That's a second or third source that also believes Hammer is a Cullen. I think we're onto you Geoff.

btownguy btownguy
Sep '17

kb2755
This post has changed topic so many times it's hard to remember what he said. Quote them and we can take a look. I do know that there are barely over 700 children in the GMRSD school district and studies show that this is on the decline. The truth is something needs to be done. However, closing down a school would be a huge mistake in case of any changes. This is because getting it back would be next to impossible.
There has also been talk of regionalization with Hackettstown on this forum. However, the board has said repeatedly that this is not happening, yet hammer and his friends mention that word repeatedly as well.
The 1.9 m which is not actually the amount,(iit was much less) has been brought up here by hammer and his friends over and over as being something "under-handed" yet the public was made aware of it as soon as it was discovered and a very concise and easy to understand explanation was given. Yet Hammer and his friends either due to ignorance or stubbornness still feel the need to cry about it...
I could go on but some of us have to go to work.
Bottom line, if Hammer is Mr. Or Mrs. Cullen it is proof that having these people involved in the education of the children in GMRSD or ANYWHERE is a big mistake and they or SHE should not be involved in any decision making.
Let's get her as far away from this as we can so this under-handed nonsense can be stopped and the BOE can focus on making it's school the best possible.

Tiredofthelies
Sep '17

kb - it's all true, the only lies up here are being spouted by tiredofthelies who is a sitting BOE member (he will lie again in denying this) but to review :

GMR has experienced a thirty percent drop in enrollment so why have taxes continued to be raised over and above the legal maximum amount every single year?

GMR has experienced a large turnover in staff with over 75% of their senior teachers retiring. A younger workforce has a much lower average salary. This should have reduced the level of the total budget. What did the board do with all the extra money they didn't need any longer to pay the higher salaries?

GMR Is owed 2 million dollars that was overpaid to Hackettstown. Why did GMR keep raising taxes when they didn't need to? The BOE should return the overpaid money not needed back to the taxpayers directly in the form of a lower tax assessment.

It's sad and disturbing that chief bully on the BOE feels like he can throw his massive weight around and grab more and more cash from the community. He personally is driving out of town good long term families who have lived here for generations and are being taxed right out of their homes. He likes this, he thinks they are not 'his type of people'. He needs to be replaced as he is a toxic influence on the community. Like doctors treat cancer, he needs to be cut out of the body politic and thrown in the trash.

BrotherDog BrotherDog
Sep '17

Wow did someone strike a cord? First I will tell you that I am not a standing board member I am a concerned parent with an education who can discern truth from lies. Second I will tell you that from.what I've read in the minutes from the meetings or heard by actually attending a meeting that the tax increase cannot go over the legal limit. Third I have seen significant changes within the schools and the education of the children as a result of the funds being used. If the schools can not improve and move with the times there will never be anyone new moving into the district.and more and more families will move out of district looking for better schools. Or is this what you would like. Less children in the schools less tax increases for you. Maybe you should be living in a 55 or older community instead.

Tiredofthelies
Sep '17

Not sure how I proved your point but if in your alternate version of reality you feel that I did, I am glad to have brightened your day. Brotherdog do the town a favor, take your advocacy of homeschooling (as I'm sure you did with your own children), somewhere that would appreciate it and leave GMRSD families alone
Funny how you remove your post when someone hits home isn't it brother dog? For everyone else reading this it's time to put an end to this b*******and stupid childish games that the Cullens and their friends are playing on these forums. This can only be done by removing Susan Cullen from the Boe. Do not vote for her in November.

Tiredofthelies
Sep '17

this is a concerted effort by a BOE member to get rid of one of the only people who stands up to the BOE president.

sue cullen has been looking out for the children since she got on the board. she also looks out for the taxpayers, and this is why she has been serving so long, because she speaks truth to power. she challenges the brow beating bullies who are in charge down there. That's good news for an overtaxed community.

this is why she deserves to be re-elected

when it comes to the amount of money we spend in Independence it's ridiculous that we spend 2,000 more per student than it costs to send a child to Rutgers. certain parents and board members think it's never enough but there are low - middle income families that live in this town who are being forced out of the district by these ever increasing taxes which hurts the very children that they are 'supposedly' trying to help. i guess this community doesn't care about those children.

BrotherDog BrotherDog
Sep '17

Brotherdog
Why is it that anytime someone tries to question the motives of you and your friends do you all cry conspiracy?
Saying that Susan Cullen is the only one to stand up to the board president is a joke. If you consider spreading lies and undermining the BOE on this forum.standing up to the president then your ignorance is worse than I suspected.
In fact I do believe that both the president of GMRSD and Hackettstown boards were the first to go on here and openly call a spade a spade without hiding behind fake names such as Indy, Hammer and Brother dog. And really stand up to the true bullies such as yourself!
It is unfortunate that only a few caring townspeople like myself actually attend the meetings, even I am not able to attend most. However, the more unfortunate matter is that when they come on a forum such as this to try and learn about what is going on they are fed lies by people such as yourself that should be living in a community that does not want public education and will say anything to undermine it.
This is why we need people with the same values as the majority of the families in town on the board, so that these families can hear the truth and not some jaded, figment of your imagination of the truth. Not a retired woman that only follows her husband's orders as to what to say. Susan Cullen has no vested interest in the education of the students only what is good for her own pocket. Time to vote her off the island.

Tiredofthelies
Sep '17

ironic that you hide behind your own fake name here, i call that a 'hypocrite'

thanks again for proving my points, i stand by my statements, they are factual and not lies, you really don't care about all of the children, it's plain.

it's funny how you and other board members call anything you don't like lies but never have any proof of your statements. on the other side, all of the people you disparage have proof and have told anyone on this forum where they can find the information behind their statements.

Values? extra high unnecessary taxes are a 'value' ?? that's laughable. and yes, you are still lying about your connections, roles, and vested interest in this issue.

feel free to pm me to further this conversation as you clearly need to be schooled in local issues and home rule.

BrotherDog BrotherDog
Sep '17

All concerned people need to do is come to a MTG. Or read the minutes and they will know the truth.
Anyone who sat at the mtg with half of a brain where the BA explained the error of payment to Hackettstown understood.
Parents of children who actually attend the school have said to me that they are pleased.with the changes. I know this not because I sit on the board but because I am part of the parental community with children who actually attend the school. I am.pleased with the changes being made in the school.
I want people who actually have a vested interest in a school and the betterment of their children on the school board. Not someone that only sees what is good for her and her friends. These children are the future of GMRSD and everywhere else. It's time to move towards having decisions for their future being made by people who care and understand because they are living it. Not the Cullens and their friends who really should consider living in a better suited community for them. If they band yourself are no longer happy with the schools (not.that it matters) it's time to consider a new.location.I heard Heath village has some openings.
Good day Brotherdog

Tiredofthelies
Sep '17

"it's funny how you and other board members call anything you don't like lies but never have any proof of your statements."

Errrr, I am not so sure about all that. Without taking sides, I have asked a number of questions, looking for facts, and not seen many factual answers. For example, I have yet to hear the answer to the $2M question: what is the remedy process as in where is the money? and what happens to the money?

And then there's facts like: "when it comes to the amount of money we spend in Independence it's ridiculous that we spend 2,000 more per student than it costs to send a child to Rutgers." This is a fact; not sure the year, but it's roughly right. In 2016, GMRS spent about $19K per student and Rutgers tuition was about $14K for a $5K difference according to the facts.

But wait.....there's more. Rutgers has both in-state and out-of-state students so the "real price" per student is 80% of the in-state price of $14K and 20% of the alien price of $30K for a total of over $17K or your $2K difference. I am sure that's how you calculated it, right :>)

Good job. Great facts.

But wait, there's more. Sometimes you can exhibit what seems to be the facts but miss the bigger picture. Thus, discussion can illuminate.

I think you forgot to add where we pay taxes and then Christie gives it to the upper education schools. Sort of like how we use taxes for public education. This is an amazing process where the gov basically sticks his finger.......and comes up with a number that looks like last years' number or a derivation. It's not what you need, it's history that counts....talk about financial ineptitude. Sigh. Rutgers gets $394M in the latest budget which is, wait for it..... about $6K per student.

Now, based on facts, Rutgers cost $4K more per student or over 20% more.

Aren't facts fun! Now, about your conclusions based on this..........

strangerdanger strangerdanger
Sep '17

We all have a vested interest in a strong performing school. My kids are still in school.
Unfortunately we do not have that now. Parents of children who actually attend the school have said to me that they are not pleased.with the changes. They say we pay too much for too little. Our childrens woeful performance in math tests alone gives credence to their view. This is not how we should be preparing the next generation for the challenges they will face.

Throwing more and more money at the problem may make some unengaged parents feel good, but by itself is not a true measurement of educational 'value' or success.

still waiting on your PM so we can further explore these topics in a better forum . . .

BrotherDog BrotherDog
Sep '17

"I have yet to hear the answer to the $2M question" - they kept all of the returned money and still raised the tax levy the maximum allowable while still exceeding the 2% cap with the use of carve out loopholes. there is more that still needs to be returned by Hackettstown and i have every expectation that the GMMR BOE will not consider lowering the tax burden, they will keep all of the money and still raise taxes the max allowed plus all the loophole carveouts they can use. it's never enough money for them, it's always more, more, more.

they should have returned the money directly to the tax base in the form of a lower assessment

it's like a runaway freight train down there, and thanks for supporting the basic points,

BrotherDog BrotherDog
Sep '17

Without an explanation from the BOE why the max tax PLUS $2M was needed to fund this year's school ----- sure, sounds wasteful.

Plus.....if the extra $2M was needed just for operating funds PLUS the standard max tax increase ------ then what the heck will happen when the $2M runs out.

Luuuucy, certainly sounds like the BOE has lots of splainin to do.

strangerdanger strangerdanger
Sep '17

https://www.gmrsd.com/Domain/265
This is really not that hard to figure out. It's all here in black and white. How much would the tax payers really get back if they put back the 2-300,000 per yr?
Also, as far as i have heard they did not ask for the full % this year.
Give it a rest already and stop.beating a dead horse.
My posts are not to debate this issue as far as I'm concerned it's done and taken care of...my posts are to simply let the public know that there are much better candidates then Susan Cullen on the ballot in November. Candidates that will take care of the needs of the school, the children and the majority of the community, not the few, radical outlying, people who are against public education and the spending that is needed to keep our district competitive for the future. DO NOT VOTE FOR SUSAN CULLEN!!!

Tiredofthelies
Sep '17

Mrs. Cullen represents a constituency that is literally getting screwed by this board and Mr.Mango with his tax and spend policies. They will come out and vote for her in numbers just to let this board know that they are paying attention. The more vitriol that is spewed forth by the union leftists on this blog the more motivated they will become. There are far more people reading this blog than are commenting and they are not drinking the union kool aid like some on this post.

hammer hammer
Sep '17

Geoff the Hammer, you don’t have to refer to your wife as “Mrs”. You can say “My wife”

btownguy btownguy
Sep '17

You have to be a fool to believe that excessive Administration (Superintents) and excessive total compensation are not the cause...


Hello All, my name is Michael my wfe Karen and I have recently moved to the Hlls of Independence and we have 2 boys. We have been watching this site for some time with interest as we rent while we lok for the perfect home for our family in the area.

I feel compelled to chime in from my perspective having school age boys and looking to purchase a home. We both work and have above average income and the cost to live in this area suits our budget. Many of the real estate people we have gone out house hunting with speak very highly of the area school districts, we are confident in our choice. We also read about the negative impact this forum has and it was mentioned by the realtors as well.

What strikes us the most is that this topic never focused on education and kids, only money and tax impacts. Many of the other towns we looked at previous to deciding to settle in this area spoke about educaton values not taxes knowing that we have 2 children. Our decision to stay here is based on value (bang for our buck lol) and commute - reverse to PA i work at Sanofi.

Here are my points:
1) Can I run for a board position even though we rent?
2) Why are folks not waiting for the results of this study before casting judgements?
3) Can you implement term limits for board members? Not knowing Mrs. Cullen but from what i read here it seems that she has been around a while and maybe its time to get someone with kids and new ideas in there
4) Since I did take the time to review this and other threads it seems that the same people have gone on and on with the same negative comments not taking other views into consideration which makes me beleive they have personal agendas

We are scheduling a meeting with the superindent so we can hear the information directly for ourselves, i hope others will do same.

Thanks for the long winded reply thanks for reading!

M&Kplus2
Sep '17

M&K
Exactly my point. I have read this thread from it's inception. And I just couldn't take the narrow-minded B's being posted on here so I decided to post for the first time ever.
I've Attended the important board meetings and have small children in the district. I have spoken to.other parents some of which are on the board and have heard that Mrs. Cullen and another man by the name of Bill Vonderhaar are not making decisions for the children and education. It is my understanding that Bill actually home schooled his children. I am.not judging him on that to each his own, but then why does he feel the need to be involved in public education decisions.
Mrs. Cullen and Bill are very close and represent the same group of people. Mr. Cullen attends the meetings and refuses to follow the agenda and feels the need to rehash old news claiming foul play.
Your best bet is to speak with Mr. Mango, he will be completely straight forward with you. Any questions he will answer and even if it's an answer that you may not like he will tell you. He does not sugar coat things which is why some people do not care for him. For me his blunt honesty is refreshing.
Speak with board members and parents who are involved.
I love it here and hopefully there will be some fresh younger thinking on the board after this year.
Both of the other Candidates
Agatha Wilke and Tim Koeller have two children in the schools ranging from 3rd to 7th grade.
There agendas are true to the school and the students. Tell everyone you know to vote and vote for the kids not just the homeschooling taxpayer.
Good Luck!

Tiredofthelies
Sep '17

It is my understanding that Bill actually home schooled his children. I am.not judging him on that to each his own, but then why does he feel the need to be involved in public education decisions


Probably so they just don't keep taking and taking in terms of taxes.

JWolfe75 JWolfe75
Sep '17

Vote! Vote! Vote! Some of the people that are holding office in both communities have been in place for decades. Some run unopposed over and over. While it is true that BOE candidates do not have to declare a political party, they are ALL affiliated with one, so they have an agenda.
All of the candidates that are running(local and state) during this election season are available to ask questions, explain their positions, and listen to your concerns,just visit any number of the weekend fetivus or community days! Once you have made your decision there are three ways to vote in NJ.
In person at your polling place on Nov.7th, absentee/no excuse in person, or vote by mail.
Online registration for regular voting deadline-10/17
mail-in ballot deadline-10/31
online applications are also available to register to vote.
In order to vote in person, you need to be registered, but you can do both at the county seat(Belvidere court house).
applications and detailed instructions can be found at www.state.nj.us

Above any "free speech" protection our Constitution guarantees, it is the right to vote(for the people, by the people) that is the most important.
It is your civic duty!

townie townie
Sep '17

iJay, why are Superintendents excessive? What does their job entail?

btownguy btownguy
Sep '17

Too many of them Mango. This is a fact and you are an insider and a denier.


IJay
You cannot say there are too many of them then talk about the fact that Mango should not be a superintendant for both GM and HTown. Or that we pay him too much when each district only pays partial.
Imagine the cost of two separate supers...make up your mind.

Tiredofthelies
Sep '17

One superintendent per COUNTY! Principals are the boots on the ground and can handle working minimally with a superintendent.


Just how close to education do you have to be and, if you are an expert, why can't you operate at the county level. Isn't that local-enough? Get rid of the local political and administrative fiefdoms.

Manage the school system on a county level. It offers better quality at a lower cost for administration and services. Take the savings and put it in the classrooms.

strangerdanger strangerdanger
Sep '17

Oh my goodness! I agree with you on that point iJay! Get those snow shovels out folks,
It's gunna snow! ; >)

Spring Fever Spring Fever
Sep '17

There are many people on this topic who have no idea what they are talking about. It's just agenda's, emotions and anger. So much hatred, misinformation and lack of understanding.

Some people should be prevented from voting because they are stupid.


Wow!!! Better quality. Do ANY of you know what today's principals deal with on a daily basis? How about all of the things the superintendent's need to deal with on a daily basis things that the public has no idea about? Do any of you know how many schools are in Warren County alone never mind a county like Essex or Morris! how would that be better quality you would expect principles to do the jobs of a superintendent and their daily jobs of managing the buildings and the students. All of this to be overseen by one County Superintendent? Better quality in your pocket maybe but not for the students! I

Tiredofthelies
Sep '17

Tiredofthe lies, You pointed out the problem I have with the administrators in our schools. Why are we (the taxpayers) NOT apprised of what they deal with on a daily basis? We don't have to have names included for privacy issues. But we the public should know what problems/issues are going on in our schools. The website should be updated daily with whatever changes are being considered, any bullying issues, personnel issues or any other matters that affect us as the people who pay for all this. The teachers, administrators, guidance counselors, secretaries and including the maintenance people all work for US and we should know what is going on in all aspects of the workings of our school district. If you don't check the website and are not aware, then that's on you and you can't then complain, but the information should be made public. There is so much that goes on which the public does not know about until decisions are basically made. The BOE meetings are a joke. The public is allowed to speak and give their opinions, but the board already knows how they are going to vote. There is too much that goes on behind closed doors. EVERYTHING should be made public, with the exception of any child's name.

I know my opinion will not be embraced by many people, but this is how I feel. For example if a child is being bullied, I would want to know about it so I could prepare my child to feel free to tell me, so I could counsel him/her appropriately, I wouldn't need any names. But no one is ever told about any bullying going on in the school. It's all behind closed doors and kept as quiet as possible. The public has the right to know.

Let the attacks begin!!!!

Parental Unit Parental Unit
Sep '17

parental unit - you don't hear about the bullying in the schools because the bullies on the board protect the bullies in the schools. some of it hits too close to home for some them personally, that's why.

BrotherDog BrotherDog
Sep '17

BD
Would you like to state your source about the bullying hitting close to.home? Domyou have proof of this?
If the schools sent out an instant alert for every issue that happens in the school people would be on here to complain about that too. How much work.would.need to go into that? These are children in schools, .principals are "putting out fires" daily some of which are investigated and inconclusive. What can be shared is shared at the BOE meetings. Anyone who attends the meetings is welcome to comment on agenda items before they are voted on, which I have seen done. Again, when people have questions or issues they have two options either Call and make an appointment to meet with Mr. Mango to discuss or come to a board meeting. It's time for all of you stop complaining on here and put your money where your mouth is. Lots of changes can be made with the right people on the board, which is why I return to my original.post, it's time to vote for the best two parents in November, Tim Koeller and Agatha Wilke. DO NOT VOTE FOR SUSAN CULLEN!

Tiredofthelies
Sep '17

iJay, if you don’t know what their job entails, how do you know other people can do it?

btownguy btownguy
Sep '17

Here we go again likely-mango-man. You are benefiting from this corruption of excessive 6 figure jobs, and to be in Warren County that's like being a millionaire.

Other states do with one superintendent per county, why can't we? This is not rocket science, no need to break this down. In fact, what do superintendents do anyway, tell me?


So we know we have 3 large residential plans in the works here in Hackettstown.
1. Bergen tool
2. Bilby Rd
3. Mountain Ave.

Has there been any discussion about the impact that will have on the census of the district? Are there plans in the works to accommodate the increase other then shipping kids to GMSD?

I know they had plans to expand Hatchery. Are those plans still being looked into?


What exactly has Susan Cullen done that was detrimental to the children? Please enlighten us. Is it that she doesn't rubber stamp every spending proposal put before the BOE. Is she responsible for all of the senior teachers retiring or the declining enrollment? It would seem that her and Mr. Vondehaar votes wouldn't count as they are outnumbered on the Board. I for one feel it necessary to have some checks and balances on a Board or any other entity that has the power to spend Public (taxpayer) funds. For the record, I just sold my home in Independence in August but when I received my new tax bill just before I closed it was up over $400 dollars from last year. I am now renting until I retire hopefully by the end of March 2018.

kb2755 kb2755
Sep '17

My name is Michele Wehmeyer and I recently was elected to the Hackettstown school Board. My mother, myself, and my daughter all have been life long residents of Hackettstown and have all graduated from the school system. I have no personal agenda, I am just trying to give back. I was a Vice President of a property management company so I have a vast knowledge of finance and facility Management. Not trying to rave about myself at all. I don't know how anyone on this site feels that they can criticize the school board for things that we have no control over, such as unions. The unions are above the school boards control. I make the best educated decisions that I can based on the information that I am given. A number of Hackettstown residents have elected me so please give me a chance to help where I can. I can't change the world.

Michele Michele
Sep '17

Good. Prove you are not all scheisters.
Can you pay GM back the 2 million you "accidentally borrowed"?


iJay, don’t try and turn this around. You’re the one that says “we only need one per county”. So I ask again, what are the job responsibilities of a superintendent? Or are you going to avoid the question again?

The more you dodge the question and name call, the cuter it is.

btownguy btownguy
Sep '17

Just curious kb2755, will you be leaving the state when you retire and if so where?

hammer hammer
Sep '17

Ms. Wehmeyer, your statement "The unions are above the school boards control" is spot on correct. The N.E.A. has complete control of 70% of the school boards budget (not only here but across the state) and there is not a darn thing you can do about it. Throw in the fact that you have a child in the school system and you become a automatic yes vote for what ever the powers that run the board want. Their can be no objective thinking on your part because your personal circumstances automatically coerce you to voting the party line. This is why the leftists who sit on these boards love people like yourself because they know you cannot vote against the dictates of the board leadership. This is exactly why so many people despise Mrs. Cullen and Mr. Vonderhaar on our board. They have no kids in the system. They are completely independent in their thinking and vote accordingly.

hammer hammer
Sep '17

Mr. Hammer I said graduated from the school system. So my objective thinking is fine! Thank you!

Michele Michele
Sep '17

Hammer
Isn't that the same for Mrs. Cullen and Mr. Vonderhaar? The only difference is their thinking is in no way in favor of doing what is right for the school and the children. They would be in favor of larger classrooms, 0 spending and whatever it takes to put even $10 back in their pockets.
KB
This is why I am so against Susan getting another term. She has no intention in voting yes to things that might cost money at all. Even if they are necessary. While she and Bill are the minority and most of the time their votes go unheard their under-handed ways are detrimental to a cohesive board.
The Cullens have gone as far as writing to the county superintendant which was read publicly at a board MTG I attended. This letter was in fact full of misinformation and the county super said so. However, they STILL feel the need to talk about these things in public mtgs.
Not only does this take away from the important work that the board needs to do it puts doubt in the public minds as to what is going on. Yes the board should be balanced however, decisions still need to be made that will benefit education.

This is why I again say to vote for the right people.

Tiredofthelies
Sep '17

btownguy I will turn this around. Make the case for why we need a Superintendent for each district rather than one per county. Don't use the status quo as an excuse, we know it is this way know. Impress me (and others) with your case, ok or will you avoid it?


Hammer, this is Warren county. What "leftists" could you ever be talking about.

What a ludicrous set of assumptions you pose. Kids in school restrict objectivity. NEA controls 70% of NJ school boards. Leftists.

Tin foil hat stuff for sure.

This thread has jumped the shark. Kill it. Nothing useful going on here.

Strangerdanger Strangerdanger
Sep '17

Geoff Hammer Cullen, the NEA has no control over anything. Furthermore, how about you actually look at a budget presentation? Salaries account for approximately 35% of the budget. Nice job doubling the number to try and twist/make up the facts.

Please don’t vote for Geoff here or his wife.

btownguy btownguy
Sep '17

iNay, I’m happy to make the case as soon as you outline for me the job and duties of a Superintendent. But, this has been a running thing for months. Since you clearly don’t know, you’d think you have researched it by now to try and be informed.

Oh wait... it’s iJay. Never mind.

btownguy btownguy
Sep '17

So... you can't justify multiple superintendents per county versus one btownguy?

BrotherDog, this shell of a man is a 100% insider (part of the problem) and likely a superintendent or an administrator hoping to rise to superintendent. These are cushy jobs doing little but such money from taxpayers. In a world of unlimited resources (fantasy) such a job would be ok, but back to reality...


Of all the states, NJ has the 8th most number of school districts. 50% of the states have less than 50% of the number of school districts that NJ has.

"Thirty-six states use a multiple district model, while four use a county-wide. Nine states have a mix of both."

And the punch line: "What is potentially troublesome is that countywide districts did show that they were saving money by consolidating services such as accounting, transportation, custodial services and others, but those savings did not transfer to instruction." Remember, the takeaway was saved money but potentially troublesome that savings did not flow to instruction. Potentially.
https://today.ku.edu/2014/12/16/study-shows-states-using-county-wide-school-districts-save-money-local-district-states

Liberal view: https://www.americanprogress.org/wp-content/uploads/2013/08/SchoolDistrictSize.pdf

Point is most evaluators say larger districts save money but are not necessarily a global panacea; districts can be too large too. NJ stands out with an inefficient management system costing us over $100M a year in lost opportunities due to ineffective spending.

Like relying on property taxes to support public education, our educational management system is archaic, expensive, and not competitive in the modern world. It's a credit to our professionals that we rank so highly in education because it certainly is not due to managerial excellence. Matter of fact, these "professional" educational managers in NJ should be leading the charge for regionalization and re-districting. I would think this is the top line item of "things to do to improve our quality of service."

If cutting costs in education is your banner then it seems pretty obvious that re-districting to county-wide or equivalent levels is your biggest hit to the bottom line.

strangerdanger strangerdanger
Sep '17

I am not an insider but I did a little looking:

Supts:

1. are responsible for implementing state and federal mandates. The volumes of policy/ forms/ reports that one must read, understand, implement and document are nearly overwhelming. The state/feds impose this stuff and don't fund it---just dump it off on each town. The Board and Supt. get to sort this out.

2. coordinate the development of curriculum across all grade levels

3. develop a budget

4. are the CEO/ COO of the system.

I believe that:

---- to dump this on a principal would remove him/her from the role of school leader.
----to give the supt. duties to a county official would undermine home rule

Oh.... while I respond to the county doing it... has anyone taken a close look at the %
of your property tax bill that goes to the county already??

Please look it up and share it with us on this thread. Thanks!

I can go past our schools and see hundreds and hundreds of kids, I'm not sure where I can go and watch our county dollars at work.

twentytwenty
Sep '17

Twenty twenty
Nicely done!

Tiredofthelies
Sep '17

Strangerdanger,approximately 70% of all school budgets goes to salaries and benefits,this is a fact. Most districts give their none union employees the same raises as the teacher contract. As I have said before,these benefits are second to none. The N.E.A. controls this money. Why is it that this state allows union members to sit on these boards? Why has my budget gone up every year for decades? Why did GMR raise my taxes this year despite being owed over $2 million. Why have we not closed a school with and over 30% drop in enrollment? Who between us is really wearing that tin foil hat????

hammer hammer
Sep '17

Maybe take a hard look at Ed O'Melia

Mickey Mickey
Sep '17

That's nor true Hammer. And why are you addressing me anyways? Why would I even care? Think you got the wrong Stranger.

Strangerdanger Strangerdanger
Sep '17

Hammer, please show your source. I looked at local budgets and approximately 30-40% so, unless you look at numbers and instantly double them, you're wrong.

btownguy btownguy
Sep '17

Mickey
I do not understand your accusations. Please explain yourself.

Tiredofthelies
Sep '17

Re: Independence, Liberty and Hackettstown School Survey

Regular instructions 31%
Special Education 14%
Administration 8%
Personnel services/ employee benefit 17%

That add up to 70%. So where is Hammer wrong or am I looking at the budget incorrectly?

Jim L Jim L
Sep '17

Jim L,

Many services are salary heavy: over 70% of a brake job is labor, over 90% of the cost of getting your lawn mowed is labor, 80% of police budgets is labor, the accountant's fee for doing your taxes is over 90% labor........What % of getting your haircut goes to labor?


Services are provided by people, people get paid, therefore services' largest expense is labor.

Let's move on.

twentytwenty
Sep '17

I'm not in disagreement with you, I just confused how SD and btownguy are arguing with Hammer over the % that goes to salary and benefits when it is right there on the school budget presentation. So I'm confused how they say his #s are wrong.

So yes 70% of the school budget is salary and benefits... which as Hammer pointed out is controlled heavily by NEA. You can't deny that or hide from that, facts are facts.

Look at the budget, where are you gonna make cuts out of that 30% that is not going towards salary/benefits? Or how do you suggest cutting into that 70%/

Jim L. Jim L.
Sep '17

Jim,

The NEA has nothing to do with salaries and negotiations. If a contract negotiation between the two bargaining units (BOE and employees) goes to impasse, both sides can request a state mediator. That's it. No mas.

BOE often starts out offering 0% or less, while the employee reps request 2,3,4% or whatever...... then they discuss, negotiate etc. if the can't agree= impasse.

Then The State becomes the ref.

The issue is: WE ALL need to rebuild healthcare in this country.

.......Also NJ's state aid to education formula/amounts are hideous.

I get disappointed by the stuff on this thread. Why? Because we are pitting ourselves against each other. Let's stop. "Don't eat your own". THe State wins because they get us good folks bitching at each other.

Let's put our energy into Funding Reform and stop attacking our neighbors, our teachers, our BOE members.

twentytwenty
Sep '17

Twentytwenty, at what point do you finally say you have had enough? Having your taxes raised every year for the past thirty years and watching this GMR board raise our taxes with being owed $2 million is a little bit outrageous wouldn't you say???. This over payment has nothing to do with the state. We over payed this amount over four consecutive years even though this number is calculated on a yearly basis. Why were we not reimbursed in the year this was calculated???.When I see the numerous B.O.E. apologists like yourself who tell me to just accept it, write the check, lets all be one happy family and then offer some highly implausible solution like "funding reform" and I say to myself it is hopeless to stay here. No change will ever come under your way of thinking and that is exactly what the system was designed for.

hammer hammer
Sep '17

In the end isn't it about all the children? Think about it! For they are our "future generation ❤

Realist Realist
Sep '17

Realist, it IS about the children. But not all of the money spent is benefitting the education of our children. There are so many unnecessary things that our tax dollars go for. I have no problem paying for good teachers or necessary maintenance to our schools. My problem is when they spend my tax dollars on things that do nothing to improve the quality of education.

Parental Unit Parental Unit
Sep '17

Parental unit:
Please support your claim " My problem is when they spend my tax dollars on things that do nothing to improve the quality of education".

You may provide a bullet list of things that do nothing. I look forward to your insights.

Have a nice day.

crazy jane crazy jane
Sep '17

Crazy Jane, here is a big one for you to think about. The 2015/16 budget Mango implemented a learning disabled children's program at GMR. He did so under the guise of lowering our transportation costs of $60,000,which I do not dispute. What he did not tell you is the cost to implement that program which I guess to be $1 million. Teachers /aides had to be trained ,equipment ordered,etc.. If he had done nothing, we would have had our first tax cut in 30 years!. Not only did he spend this money but it kept these people on the payroll,there by keeping him from cutting them from the payroll and the closing a school,which should have been done years ago. Most importantly it kept the budget on it's ever increasing trajectory which was his true goal in implementing it in the first place. So I ask all of you, how did this improve your child's education???. The fact is that it did not! All it did was protect jobs and the bureaucracy which was the whole point of it.

hammer hammer
Sep '17

Hammer,

I was responding to Jim L

I want the 2M back too

No supt. would do all that to save a few jobs.

twentytwenty
Sep '17

Mr Cullen, (Hammer)
It is very apparent from your response that learning disabled children are not worthy of educating. I asked for a list or an example of "things that do nothing to improve the quality of education" and you provided your answer.

Face it, you only want to save money and kids do not factor into your thoughts. Do you share these thoughts with your BOE member wife? I wonder. For the record; it did not benefit my kid, but it did for others. Community, ever hear of it?

crazy jane crazy jane
Sep '17

"which I guess to be $1 million" "we would have had our first tax cut in 30 years!. " Of course none of this or the rest of your tome is true or at least "I guess" that's the case. Last time I checked, "I guess" is not a fact. And that's why you get the tin foil hat.

Back to the other stuff you noted, why I don't know, in response to my claim that the biggest cost reduction might be in re-districting to county-wide or thereabouts levels. Yes, the 70% for salaries and benefits is true but I don't know about your "guess" that many union and nonunion shops get the same pay, same benefits, whatever. I have said the benefits, including a salary increase, need to be modified to be competitive. How the NEA controls this money or why teachers/union members can't sit on citizen-operated boards is beyond me. Are they not parents, do they not bleed for our children?

You state: "Why has my budget gone up every year for decades?" Short answer: inflation alone would provide upward movement to all budgets. Golly, my salary has gone up almost every year for decades. I am not sure you are correct on budget anyways.

Hackettstown Expenditures:
2013-2014 actual: $33.8M
2014-2015 actual: $31.6M
2015-2016 estimated: $30.6M
2017-2018 estimated: $30.2M (your number)

Looks lower to me.

GMR Expenditures
2013-2014 actual: $19.6M
2014-2015 actual: $20.4M
2015-2016 estimated: $20.4M

Not exactly choking on this one either.

How about those 33% less students:

Hackettstown Enrollment:
October 2007: 1,583
2013-2014 actual: 1,579
2014-2015 actual:1.614
2015-2016 estimated: 1,661

Does that look like less to you?

GMR Enrollment:
October 2007: 878
2013-2014 actual: 728
2014-2015 actual: 671
2015-2016 estimated: 664

OK, this is less students, but I am not seeing 30% from 2007 to now and obviously Hammer jumps shift in lamenting about GMR or Hackettstown as it fits his narrative.

You keep harping on the $2M as if this was a one-off event. It took place over four years and, I believe, has been addressed ad nausea at this point. Just not to your satisfaction while you act like there has been no response whatsoever.

What really gets me is that in all your kvetching, you never say what your expected outcome is. 20% salary reduction? 10% benefits? What???? My point is that NJ education is some of the best, statistically, in the nation. Our spending, per student, rates about 4th in the nation which means we are at the top of pack results-wise, but middle of the top end for spending. Sounds like a pretty good deal to me.

You want to focus on the 70% without a metric for success; I say that is difficult especially if you care about NJ education status. I say the easier cut is re-districting which is easier and, OMGoodness, effects both the 30% and the 70% factors. I mean, less employees is less salaries and benefits --- right?

Would $4M per year be a good start? I am sure you can find other estimates as well as those who question savings. IMO, the law of scal economics says savings as some level are easily possible. Plus other benefits like better sharing of materials, facilities and even talent between schools, which may not save money per se but can extend talent where it doesn't exist due to budget constraints today. Sharing will only benefit Warren County education. https://cms.bsu.edu/-/media/www/departmentalcontent/millercollegeofbusiness/bbr/publications/nj-lgc-schools.pdf?la=en

Facts. They are our friends.

strangerdanger strangerdanger
Sep '17

"Facts. They are our friends."

Lol.

justintime justintime
Sep '17

Figures.

Strangerdanger Strangerdanger
Sep '17

Strangerdanger,The GMR Enrollment in 2007 was over 1,000 students that is a fact!!!. I have the actual 2015 GMR budget in my hand and between 2014,2015 and 2016 the expenditures for the new disabled children's program Mango implemented are around $1 million dollars. I am not an accounting professional but I can see expenses being added to columns where there were none in previous years,large numbers. As far as "re_districting" which is your code word for regionalize, it would be a financial disaster for the tax payers of Independence. Mango and his cohorts are looking to tap into the much higher rateable's in town so he can subsidize Hackettstown's budget with our money. Lastly , this board and any other board NEVER CUT SPENDING,it is the height of absurdity to ever think so. Your last post is so pro B.O.E. that my gut political instincts tells me you are in fact shilling for the B.O.E.

hammer hammer
Sep '17

Crazy Jane, I just read your post. Tell me how the vestibules which were very expensive, improve the quality of education. I don't have the time right now to make "bullet list" for you. But that is just one poor choice made by Mr. Mango and the BOE.

You have a nice day also.

Parental Unit Parental Unit
Sep '17

Almost every school is considering installing "man traps" vestibules and many districts are looking at the models GM has implemented as an example for their own districts. The retired chief of Police in Indy said in a public BOE meeting that it was beneficial and he supported the installation.

Tell me again where they went wrong? Safety and security along with maintenance and building upgrades are all part of the budget. Thank you GM BOE and Mr. Mango for doing this.

Also thanks to the board and Mr. Mango for taking our most vulnerable students and their families into consideration by implementing a disabled child program. How comforting it must be to those families to have their child stay in district rather than transport elsewhere. On another note this is revenue generating long term.

Shame on you Hammer for such inconsideration to these families and children, I hope you never have to support a child with disabilities. Cold heart you have sir.

Luca Brasi
Sep '17

Hidden?

justintime justintime
Sep '17

"Strangerdanger,The GMR Enrollment in 2007 was over 1,000 students that is a fact!!!." You are correct. I used the Regular Full Time Students as a constant whereas you included H-town GM enrollees, special ed, etc. The line items change over the year so I stuck with a constant, the largest number being regualar full time enrollees. Figured why double-count Hackettstown transfers which I guess does not bother you.....

Your view would result in a 2007 of 1,444 total students for GMR including H-town, special ed, private school xfers, etc. The corresponding value for 2015-2016 is 1,168. That's a 20% drop. At your result of a 30% drop, you're off by....a lot. And that's a fact.... Oh yeah, here is my substantiation. Of course, you have none..... http://www.nj.gov/education/finance/fp/ufb/ It's user friendly, no CPA needed.

Then you veer off to a Mango rant against the disabled children's program, red herring topic, no substantiation for your torrid allegations but most important ---- so what? Beyond better positioning for tin foil hat reception, this does not advance our discussion now, does it?

My budget numbers, which of course you did not address, are included in the above linked support.

And then you're off to the tin foil hat races....."As far as "re_districting" which is your code word for regionalize, it would be a financial disaster for the tax payers of Independence." Well paint my face blue and call me Mango, you said it, it must be true. But a question....why is it true?

Oh here's why I guess: "Mango and his cohorts are looking to tap into the much higher rateable's in town so he can subsidize Hackettstown's budget with our money. Lastly , this board and any other board NEVER CUT SPENDING,it is the height of absurdity to ever think so." bhwhaaaaaaat? No substantiation again. But perhaps I misread the actual budget reports. I used the line that said Total General Current Expense. Is that the wrong line?

And then you take the cake: "Your last post is so pro B.O.E. that my gut political instincts tells me you are in fact shilling for the B.O.E." Don't quit your day job to go into politics. You have no instincts for it apparently. I have never even been to a GM PTA meeting..... I work.

So I have laid out my facts. I have substantiated them. IMO re-districting is the easiest path to the greatest possible cost reduction while potential improving educational quality at the same time. JIT thinks that's funny facts and he laughs out loud to himself. And you have done what you do.....Enjoy.

strangerdanger strangerdanger
Sep '17

Parental Unit (PU)
Unfortunately, it is a sign of the times and security was a BIG concern of parents and poof there are vestibules. With that said; I do not see how they would reduce the quality of education and could even make a thin argument that it would help. All in all, security measures are being called for by the community and a school's number one priority is the safety of it's students. I can't and won't argue that.

When you have more time, I would like you to share more of your insights.

Have a nice day

crazy jane crazy jane
Sep '17

CJ --- One way this can erode educational quality is tax cap exceptions and human nature. Our property tax cap is 2% so our taxes should only go up 2% a year, worse case. Or is it? One exception, for example, is you can roll forward any amount under the cap for x number of years in the future. So 1% this year, yippee, but 3% next year to fit the 2% cap...darn. That one does not apply here.

There are also exceptions for other spending, one is for construction, mostly capital expense I believe. What this means is that if the "man traps" are considered a capital expense for construction, boom ---- it falls outside the 2% cap. Now here's where human nature comes in. These guys are not total idiots and they know that the public looks at the 2% cap seriously. So if they breach it with a capital expense like this, even with the exception, human nature can make them squeeze the rest of the 2% as low as they can to get it all in as close to 2% as possible including all expenses. That makes their lives easier, however, might detract from educational choices they may have made if either the man trap was not purchased or the 2% cap did not exist. That might reduce the quality of education artificially because of the regulatory tax constraints we have written into law.

Basically it's the NJ regulatory tainted view of spending choices. In the real world, either man traps or books, or both if you bust the budget a bit. In NJ, this concept is further clusterfracked up because of the budgetary tax constraints we have in place, the workaround exceptions, and basic human nature to follow the easier path.

But what do I know, I am a BOE shill.... :>)

strangerdanger strangerdanger
Sep '17

Crazy Jane, I'm on a break at work, so can't get into too many details. But regarding the vestibules, the minuscule amount of safety to the students does not warrant the outrageously high cost to install these vestibules, in my opinion. We fortunately do not live in a high crime area. Additionally how many times will a crazed gunman go through the front door of a school? They would have to be buzzed in by someone in the office anyway. What prevents them from going to the back of the school and shooting randomly through a first floor non-bullet resistant window? I absolutely agree that the safety of our children is of utmost importance, but given the current economy and the rise we have experienced in taxes, when people are struggling to make their ends meet, that money could have been put to better use elsewhere. I never said it would reduce the quality of education, but how did it improve it?

My break is just about over. I hope you enjoy this beautiful fall day.

Parental Unit Parental Unit
Sep '17

Parent unit

You are correct. Not only are the expensive vestibules not improving children's education they are a waste of taxpayer money. The liberty school has the playground down a hill and next a road. It would have a better decision to use the money to move that playground up the hill and insight of the building. Why are tax payers not ask to vote on large sums of money being used by school superintendents?

Retired Retired
Sep '17

Hammer/Cullen:
Thanks for confirming that you don't care about kiss.

PU:
Hope you enjoyed the day as well. When you have time, please make a list. We will have to agree to disagree on vestubles to a small degree.

Have a nice weekend

Crazyjane Crazyjane
Sep '17

What did the vestibules cost?

Like I said, it's a very weird budgeting we have now where operations have a 2% cap on increases but capital expense falls outside the cap. Makes oversight more difficult too.

strangerdanger strangerdanger
Sep '17

Crazyjane I really don't have the time to do the research to make a list with facts to back up my complaints. But there is of course the 1.9 million overpayment which no one caught for six years. And now it is an interest free loan. Yet Hackettstown had the money to install the vestibules. Shouldn't your bills be paid before spending money that is not really necessary? That almost 2 million dollars could have helped GM with taxes. Mr. Mango being the superintendent for both districts is absolutely a conflict of interest in my opinion. Hackettstown has some financial problems and he makes the decision to use GM to bail them out by "redistricting" which is basically regionalizing without having to put it up for a vote from the public. He says he only makes recommendations, it's the BOE who makes the decision. I don't believe that. In theory that is supposed to be true, but in their closed doors committee meetings, they decide how they are going to vote. The public meetings are really a waste of time, except to learn what is going to happen. They all know how the vote is is going to come out. They listen to the public, and then no matter what is said the vote goes the way Mr. Mango wanted. For example this feasibility study. No one wanted it, but yet it passed. As for helping out with this fungus problem, I believe communities should help each other out. But I do question why it wasn't discovered a few weeks earlier before the schools opened. It is just a little too coincidental for me.

I believe your feelings and opinions are very different from mine. So we will just have to agree to disagree.

Enjoy the rest of the weekend. Today is predicted to be a nice day.

Parental Unit Parental Unit
Oct '17

PU - boy does that stink

So you are basically insinuating that the fungus problem was just a rouse? So all the teachers; aides and custodial staff who are in the buildings every day are also partaking in this diabolical scheme of Mangos's?

Wow I don't believe there is enough tin foil in the entire county to make party hats for you.

Luca Brasi
Oct '17

why talk about yourself in the third person?

BrotherDog BrotherDog
Oct '17

No accusations made. I just feel it was very coincidental that it was discovered at this time, so close to when the schools were thoroughly cleaned and I assume inspected. Just my opinion. Your insults were very uncalled for.

Again, we will agree to disagree.

Parental Unit Parental Unit
Oct '17

Parent Unit

You bring up important points about the 1.9 million dollar overpayment and the deal where it is interested free for six years. Again I go back to the vestibules being a false sense of security for our children. The money spent did not do anything for the children’s education. Why can’t people see both BOE’s give Mr. Mango what he wants at at expense of the Taxpayer. Great Meadows residents want no part of this redistricting and they said that in the survey results. Mr. Mango called on the BOE to have this feasibility study done anyway. It cost us another 6,000. I ask everyone to come to the BOE meetings to put a stop to this.

Retired Retired
Oct '17

I agree 100%, Retired!!!

Parental Unit Parental Unit
Oct '17

I recently went to a GMRSD Board of Ed meeting. For the most part it seems that the Board president and a few of the other members have the best interest of our children in mind. As far as Super Mango he is a snarky salesman type that is in this for himself and his own self gratification. Does anyone remember what he did with the child study team at GMRSD? He pimped it out to warren county special services, and it's been a joke. The Vice President of the board seems to think he is some sort of tough guy? Or muscle for Mango. He is rude and as a matter of fact he owns a local business/service that I no longer will use. Go to the meetings voice your opinions don't let these guys try to scare you off with their fake tough guy attitude. Stand your ground.

Scrwmango Scrwmango
Oct '17

Parental unit, Your analysis is 100% spot on. That has been the way it works up at GMR for years. Retired, the only way you can put a stop to this is to run candidates who also want to put a stop to this,other wise you are wasting your time. The fix is in for the results of this feasibility study. They had it figured out all along. Mango will spin it the way he wants and the board will rubber stamp it. All the leftists commenting on this blog will all come out and praise it and vilify those who don't.

hammer hammer
Oct '17

Leftists? Really? This is a red/blue thing? And the school board is the only place in Warren County the leftists rule?

Strangerdanger Strangerdanger
Oct '17

This commentary has become a waste of time.


quoted from above; "The Vice President of the board seems to think he is some sort of tough guy? Or muscle for Mango. He is rude and as a matter of fact he owns a local business/service that I no longer will use."

+1 , spot on correct.

BrotherDog BrotherDog
Oct '17

Re: Independence, Liberty and Hackettstown School Survey

"He who must not be named:" the Vice President of the board and local business owner, tough guy, Mango muscle ---- or is there more.......

strangerdanger strangerdanger
Oct '17

jono:

global in size?

twentytwenty
Oct '17

Wow. I just caught up on all of this and I cannot believe how insane you all are.

1st. The vestibules anyone who has an issue with these obviously has blinders on to what is going on in today's society. I have children in that school and I for one am happy that access to the children has been made a little bit tougher.

2nd. Again with the $1.9 m. Dollars...anyone who can comprehend simple English can clearly read the explanation of the lag time in finding the error. Or here's a better idea call and set up an appt. With Mango or the BA they can walk you through it with a detailed explanation.

3rd the vice president. For those who do not know I will name him by name. It is Joe Mailloux and he is probably the most involved parent in the community. He coaches a number of sports, volunteers when needed and donates endless amounts of time and money to this community. Everything he does on the BOE has the best interest of the children in mind. I have been at numerous mtgs. Where he is the first to bring it back to the kids. I've seen him disagree with Mr. Mango and other members if the children are not in the forefront of the decision.

Susan Cullen on the other hand and her husband the "hammer" only agree with cutting classes, teachers spending etc for the interest of retired community members..If they have such issues with their taxes why don't they just go to a better suited community for themselves.

Again as November draws nearer. I remind everyone to vote for the people that are for the children. Agatha Wilke and Tim Koeller. DO NOT VOTE FOR SUSAN CULLEN

Tiredofthelies
Oct '17

Tiredofthelies, with the election approaching, will there be a public meeting where the candidates speak publically as to what their platform is? I would like to know what their plan is, what changes they hope and will try to make, as well as how they will attempt to implement whatever it is they propose to do. I don't ever remember anything such as this happening in the past, I could be wrong, but I was not aware of anything like this. The only thing I am aware of is the sample ballot which gives a brief introduction of the candidate. I would love for there to be a debate between the candidates so we, the voters, can make a better informed choice as to who we want to sit on our board.

Parental Unit Parental Unit
Oct '17

I am.not aware of debates happening in the past for BOE.. remember this is a volunteer position. I have heard of a meet the candidate night. However, as time draws near I am sure there will be some sort of communication going out..I am.not either of them, just a citizen who sees who is on the board now and want what's right for the kids..Here's an idea. Why don't you go to a BOE MTG and ask.there..They would know best. Also, if you have children in the schools reach out. I know both of them coach different sports and are very active in the community just as you would hope a board member would be.

Tiredofthelies
Oct '17

I do attend meetings regularly. I do not exactly like what I see. Coaching sports and being an active community member, though admiral qualities, do not necessarily make for a good board member. I love my kids and have in years past been involved with the scouting program, the PTO and volunteered in many of the school activities my children were involved in, but I would have made a terrible board member.

Parental Unit Parental Unit
Oct '17

Parent unit

I believe If it had not been for Mrs. Cullen we would never have found out about the 1.9 million dollars. They can say what they want but you do not overpay tuition for six years without knowing that you have overplayed. That money could have been used in Great Meadows. If you were at the last BOE meeting then you saw how some BOE members treat concerned parents. Continue to come to the BOE meetings and make up your own mind.

Retired Retired
Oct '17

Retired
Where do you come up with this?

"I believe If it had not been for Mrs. Cullen we would never have found out about the 1.9 million dollars."
I did not hear it from Mrs. Cullen. This info was made public as soon as the board was aware.
When can you all stop beating a dead horse. Why can you not read the explanation. This was also backed by the COUNTY SUPERINTENDANT.
geesh give it a break already!

Tiredofthelies
Oct '17

I don't always vote in local matters but a read of this thread has made me determined to back Cullen.
I attended Liberty when it was K-8, not a well-funded school but I do not believe elementary education needs to benefit from anything more than adequate supplies and passionate, fairly compensated faculty. The sense of community and competent care of kids makes a lot more of a difference than endless funding. I do not have children and my stake in the taxes is equally relevant to your choice to have kids.
This region is finally seeing the end of the ugly, invasive toll brothers boom and now that the parent's house is foreclosed and the adult kids have moved east, school enrollment seems to be getting back to the normal levels of a quasi-rural area.
Less is more for those of us who enjoy Warren County for what it is.

kepa
Oct '17

I was that the meeting and as I said, I didn't like what I saw. My children went through the district many years ago. Central School was K-8 and then on to Hackettstown High. The principal at that time proposed a middle school. He had very grandiose unnecessary plans for the new school. The public spoke and was against his proposal.
The board listened and voted it down. It was a different time and we had board members who listened and paid attention to what the voters thought best for their children. We now have (I think) 8 board members but there are many more voters who have a right to say how their money is spent. But it seems this board only listens to one person and votes the way they are told.

Parental Unit Parental Unit
Oct '17

Tiredofthelies, you either have your head stuck in the sand, or you are drinking the kool-aid. Susan Cullen is one of two board members that is reasonable and free thinking. You have made several uncalled comments about her going to a retirement community. Here is what you don't understand; the median age of Liberty Township is mid 50's, in Independence, the median age is mid 40's, these residents deserve just as much of a voice as anyone else. We have seen yearly tax increases at the hands of the BOE. Nearly 70% of our taxes go towards the school system. Many seniors are finding it impossible to sell their homes because of the high taxes. Prospective residents, especially those with school aged children, will be scared off by the taxes and our schools' low ratings. I love the schools and teachers, as many residents do, but a buyer is going to look at those ratings and run to another area where the taxes might be comparable, but the schools are rated much higher. Everyone wants to get their money's worth.

Here is a fun fact: The GM BOE recently voted yes on a budget that no one saw! Two members abstained, can you guess who they were?

As for the 1.9 million dollars, we will stop talking about it when it is repaid! The presentation that Mr. Havlush gave months ago seemed logical enough, but it definitely could have been caught in his own audits, which should be done quarterly. Let's call this what it is; a no interest loan. By law, a school district has three years to pay back an overpayment without interest. That is not what has been arranged by our BOE!

My children's safety is my upmost concern, but these vestibules are a joke, especially with so many other gaps in safety. The playground at Liberty is far removed from the school and is close to the road. There is a major breach at the middle school which I am choosing not to disclose on this forum for safety concerns. We spent millions of dollars on these security features, yet are still vulnerable in at least two of our three schools.

As for your patron Saint, Joe Mallioux, he is vile. We are all aware of all of the volunteering that he does in the community because he is always the first to remind us. He likes the power associated with it. His ego walks through the door ten minutes before he does. He recieves preferential treatment and enjoys many favorable benefits because of his position on the board. It's clear that you haven't been to a board meeting in quite some time, especially this last one, because you wouldn't be so quick to defend him. His behavior has been deplorable and completely out of line. He also has a laundry list of devious behavior.

You brought up the Warren County Superintendent, Dr. Rosalie Lamonte's approval of the overpayment as an edorsement. Why wouldn't she back up Mango when he recently hired her child in the Hackettstown district? The same could be said for Bordi (the president of the Hackettstown BOE) standing behind Mango, Bordi's daughter was hired by Mango to work at Liberty School.

There is so much that goes on among the boards and Mango than you could ever imagine. ALL of their hands are dirty, this is corruption at it's finest. I would vote for Cullen over and over again. As a matter of fact, I wish that I could clone her and cancel out the votes of the self serving board members!

I HOPE TO SEE MORE OF YOU AT THE NEXT BOE MEETING ON OCTOBER 17TH!!


Cmom, you wrote a great post. That could have been written by me. You expressed my feelings exactly. I'm sure those two teachers were hired because of the positions their parents held, not so much on qualifications. They may very well be qualified, I don't know. Because the hiring was done like so many things, behind closed doors. I'm glad you brought up the vestibules and the 1.9 million. These are things that can't be swept under the carpet and forgotten about. They are major issues that hurt all the residents of Independence Township, whether they have children in the district or not. I don't understand why some people think the 1.9 million dollars is not important and everyone should "stop beating a dead horse". Whoever let this fall through the cracks for 6 years should be fired. This was not a small error and who knows how long it would have gone on had it not become public information? And I agree that those vestibules are a joke!! Metal detectors would have been a smarter choice. Not that I am advocating for those. But would someone with a weapon in their possession let it be seen while standing in the vestibule? I don't understand the thought process in approving the amount of money those vestibules cost to install. Can anyone explain how the benefits of these vestibules outweigh the cost? I don't see it at all.

Parental Unit Parental Unit
Oct '17

Cmom
So.lets break this down.
1st the budget. There is a committee that handles this first. Anyone is privy to the info. As for Bill and Susan abstaining this is not true. They simply vote no and have since I can remember. They would will vote no until taxes go down. Not happening.. They have expressed the fact that class size is not important. They will also tell you that if cutting programs would.lower the budget. No.problem.

The $1.9 m. If I inferred that Dr. Lomonte agreed with the over payment I apologize. What I meant was that she REITERATED to Mr. Cullen that nothing was done underhandedly. As he claims. As for the payment back I know that GM and HTown worked out an agreement that wld be fair. To expect HTown to pay it back quicker would put teachers, class size and programs in HTown at risk. Which would effect all.of our children as well as others No one I'm sure would like to see this.
The teacher hirings: I am.unaware of Dr. Lomonte child being hired. Please enlighten me. As for Miss. Bordi, nothing under-handed or unethical was done. She is also one of the best educators I have encountered at Liberty. As for cloning, her enthusiasm, knowledge and love for teaching and the children should be cloned as a teacher such as herself is what can make the difference. You want a blue ribbon school hire more of her.

Finally, Joe Mailloux. I admit at the last MTG he might have been a bit over the top. However, I have repeat watched he and the board be badgered and beaten up.by parents who are ignorant and somewhat nasty. I was even losing my patience in the audience. Remember this BOE job is volunteer and unpaid, 7 of the 9 members have children in the school and only want what's best for the kids. As would any parent. To be beaten up by parents over things that are beyond there control.must be frustrating, additionally, the woman who was questioning was indignant, seemed entitled and was not listening at all. Should he have kept his cool? Yes, however, the parents should as well.
Good day Courtney!

Tiredofthelies
Oct '17

Tiredofthelies- I'm not Courtney, though I feel she was justified, as a concerned parent, in asking her question and didn't deserve to be spoken to that way by a sitting board member. Do I always agree with her? No. Do I think that parents are entitled to question what is going on in their children's schools without persecution? Yes. If Joe can't handle the heat, then he shouldn't be on the board. I guarantee that it is only going to get worse in the coming months with this feasibility study.

Mediocre detective skills, keep guessing!


Well Cmom the other parents I spoke with agreed that she was out of line in her way of questioning not just myself..and for my detective skills I have better things to do than keep guessing.
Yes parents have rights to question of course but they really should educate themselves first and not waste everyone's time with ignorant, unwarranted questions and accusations. Unfortunately, this is not the case when people rely on things such as social.media and town forums for their information.
Question cmom, have you even tried to reach out to Mr. Mango himself to talk about these things and ask questions or do you only rely on this board to express yourself. Go ahead call me a hypocrite but I am anonymous on this board because i can be. However, I reach out to people such as board members and Mr. Mango for the correct info.
I will be honest when I first met Mr. Mango I was not impressed by him however, I sat down with him last year and asked him all of my questions and expressed my concerns and walked away satisfied with his intentions. I suggest you do the same.

Tiredofthelies
Oct '17

I have spoken with Mr. Mango and he lied straight to my face. The lack of transparency and honesty is what is most frustrating about our Superintendent and BOE. Maybe if the board would work with the parents and accept their concerns, instead of being defensive and antagonistic, we could all have a healthy dialogue.

As for her being out of line, we will have to disagree on that. She may have been aggressive in her questioning, but the majority of the people who walked out of that meeting were talking about Joe's behavior and the chatter continues.

As for anonymity, do you really think it's fair to put that parent's name out there when you don't know who it is for sure? Especially when you are incorrect. You've done the same with other posters on this forum. This is one of the reasons that I don't post on here often. People spend more time trying to call people out than listening to what they have to say. I could easily call you Agatha, but what would that accomplish? You can have your opinion, and I can have mine, but don't drag innocent people into this.

You might be surprised to hear that parents have gone to great lengths to get a full picture of what is going on. They have spoken to the mayors, town councils, ethics committee, and Dr. Lamonte, to name a few. Knowledge is power.


And by the way, what I do feel is hypocritical is that the board members are constantly attacking social media, and this forum, yet they come here to "anonymously" post themselves.


Well cmom i am not Agatha so I guess we are even. So far i have seen 2 board members post on here with their real names yet they continue to be attacked. While others hide behind fake names I. Hammer and Indy. So it doesn't really matter either way.
. I would love to hear how Mango lied straight to your face. Maybe it just wasn't the answer you wanted to hear.

Tiredofthelies
Oct '17

If you are really tired of the lies then you should stop spreading lies on this forum. I am not a board member and neither is Hammer. You took a lie that the board president told and went with it. Your attacks on Sue Cullen show you are just another bully. As you said before, the board members are unpaid volunteers. That applies to Mrs. Cullen as well as all of the others.
I research the information that I put on the forum. It's not just my opinions but facts obtained from budgets, meeting minutes, and nj doe data. Any time your group doesn't like what they see they call it lies. The facts are that we have dropped in enrollment by 400 students over the last 8 years. The board overpaid Hackettstown by over 1.8 million of our tax dollars. Even in a year when they are getting a refund of 900,000 they still raised our taxes. Mr. Mango wants to open a special needs school at Liberty. That may be why special ed. has increased by 862,000 in the budget over the last 4 years. An increase of 18 students does not justify an increase of 862,000.
As taxpayers in this district we have every right to question what they are doing with our tax dollars. We can let them know when we don't approve of what they are doing. That doesn't make us selfish it makes us concerned citizens. People let them know what they wanted by filling out this survey. They didn't like the results from the survey and decided to pay someone to get different results. From what I have heard, it is a done deal in GMRSD. Maybe the people in Hackettstown have more influence over their board than we do. Now is the time to ask them where they stand on the send/receive issue before it's too late.

Indy2 Indy2
Oct '17

Tiredofthelies, I would suggest you and all your other cohorts stop trying to figure out who i am. Every time anyone of you clowns refers to me as someone who I am not,you make a complete ass of yourselves. You leftists are so intent on silencing/destroying the messenger that you conveniently ignore the facts and the more facts I put forth the more vitriol you spew out and the more shrill your comments become. The fair minded people reading this blog fully understand how biased you are.

hammer hammer
Oct '17

CMOM, what a great post you wrote above. I tip my hat to you keep it up.

hammer hammer
Oct '17

To those of you that do not go to meetings and do not read the minutes of those meetings. I present to you the following letter written, read and entered into those minutes by Mrs. Cullen at the July 18,2017 GMRSD B.O.E. meeting.
"I would like this to be part of the official record of this meeting.
As you know,due to the change of the June meeting date I was unable to attend the special meeting of the GMR B.O.E..I did however read the agenda and supporting documentation. At no time was I aware that the board was going to discuss let alone move forward with a study for the middle school merger.
Facility optimization should be a slow,deliberative and transparent process. There were no reports issued by the Shared Services Committee as required by board policy. The motion to approve funding for the study was not on the public agenda nor part of the addendum. Further,the results of the Facilities Optimization Survey were never published. In my opinion,this was neither slow,deliberative nor transparent. I urge the board to facilitate more public discussions regarding the most important decision for our district."

hammer hammer
Oct '17

Hammer
First insinuating that I am a "leftist" is an accusation that you know nothing about. I am not, however, if I were it has nothing to do with these posts.
2nd, about the letter put forth by Mrs. Cullen. I WAS at that meeting and the response she received from the board was that this will be a slow, deliberate process. From everyone on the board I've spoken to this is not a done deal. He can it be when they do not have all of the facts. These are the lies I am tired of. You and your cohorts keep putting on here that this is A DONE DEAL. IT IS NOT. .The only two that think it is are Bill and Susan. EVERY other board member says they do not know.Sostop spreading these lies on here, this is what gets the public in an uprotar.These are the lies that makes them think that the board is up to no good. THIS is the reason why Susan Cullen is not good for the board. She does not listen to what her entire board says or thinks (which is what's best for the children) SHE WILL ONLY FOLLOW HER OWN AGENDA.. not what is best for the school and the kids.

Thank you Hammer for proving my point!!!!!
I have said all I'd care to say.

Tiredofthelies
Oct '17

Tired of the lies

I am retired and would not have known about this situation unless my neighbors had not told me what was going on. I took the original survey ,as did many parents and taxpayers. We told the BOE Mr. Mango in the first survey we did not want Hackettstown children bused to GM. Mr Mango went against our wishes and ask the BOE for another 6,000 of taxpayer money to do this feasibility study. Hackettstown parents and taxpayers also did not want this but Mr. Mango and the BOE approved spending 6,000 for the fesiability study. Can you see why we taxpayers and parents are upset? I I hope more parents and taxpayers show up at these BOE meeting.

Retired Retired
Oct '17

All,

Can we all just take a breath stop the name calling/cyber bullying and wait and see what the study shows? I can assure you that my mind is not made up and I am waiting to see what the results deems. To think that we have preconceived decisions or that anyone is pushing the boards into a deal one way or the other is just nonsense.

Regarding the study, it was a board directive, I myself am the one who spearheaded this study based on the growing population in Hackettstown and future projects, so if you want to point a finger please do so to me directly. My seat is up soon enough and you can all put your names on the ballot if you want to.

As for the Hackettstown Board, we are indeed very grateful that GMR came to our aide for our fungi matter thanks to all the staff and administration, in both districts, for their professionalism.. As for our Hackettstown parents I believe that they realize it was an unexpected situation and that the district's communication and swiftness of decisions to maintain education; safety and security of students and staff has been handled very well.

Regarding the tuition over payment, that has been discussed over and over, Mrs. Cullen herself voted in favor of the terms of the re payment agreement. So why is this even being discussed?

Please all be patient for the results the study which will be completed soon and all items discussed in open public. Which I truly expect will be well attended.

Until then cyber bullying on all sides should end.

As always please call or e mail directly with any questions.

Gus Bordi
President
Hackettstown BOE
gbordi@hackettstown.org

Gus Bordi Gus Bordi
Oct '17

Gus, if you think this is cyber bullying, you should review the school plans to curtail such activities....:>( Thanks for the input and I can hope you can see the disconnect if the survey says NO and the BOE says let's study more.... I agree, there may be a good reason to continue with the study, but optics-wise, you need a little more surround.

It's a tough job. You have constituents who just want to spend less. Sometimes in lieu of the expected outcome to quality.

This creates FUD with things like the $1.9M which has not only been adequately explained but also laid at the feet of the State which makes up, and that's said on purpose, makes up some of these rules. And to answer the question: why can't we know quarterly, the answer is why even bother if it won't matter to the State process of re-assessment?

The one question that was not answered, but asked a few times above, in the $1.9M is given falling enrollments, where did the returned funds get credited because given these two facts, why don't we see some tax increase relief?

Moving on to the other topics, what a mish-mosh of concepts and emotions.... Regionalization, fungi, personal BOE attacks, vestibules, and the rest are all jumbled up in emotional exchanges filled with name calling.

The facts I laid out show that NJ has more school districts than other states and that many other states have realized cost savings through consolidation and regionalization. Also, studies show regionalization savings exist although are not a given. It takes planning and work but the result is most often lower cost and higher quality.

Let me use the BOE as an example. I am willing to bet that is our BOE was regional, that it would be more talented and experienced than the non-consolidated BOE's we have today. So would the schools. And less expensive too. Studies are linked above but you can find them in a search as well.

So please continue with any efforts, as painful as they are, to move forward with this and thank you very much for stepping up.

strangerdanger strangerdanger
Oct '17

Mr. Bordi, I believe the reason everyone is so upset over this is the vast majority of people in both districts were not in favor of the redistricting proposal. Yet Mr. Mango and both boards overrode the public opinion and spent $12,000 of our money for this study. No matter what the result turns out to be, we don't want it!!!! If both districts had their own superintendent Mr. Mango would not have any authority over one of them and perhaps then the public would be able to have more of a say in what goes on in their own district. It is a definite conflict of interest. He is attempting to help one of his districts by using the other. It is not right. He is not looking out for what is best for BOTH districts, simply what will bail Hackettstown out of their problems now. Great Meadows has some other options for the current lower enrollment. There is a new housing development which I believed has been approved. There will be a percentage of that development which will be low income housing. Those will definitely bring children into the district. No one can predict how many. If the redistricting goes through, 5 years from now GM could potentially be overcrowded. What happens then?

Parental Unit Parental Unit
Oct '17

Bottom line Gus is if I wanted my kids to attend GM schools I would have lived there. This doesn't benefit Hackettstown in any way. I see collusion between both districts and Mango. He wears two hats and gets paid two salaries. Not Hackettstown's problem that no one wants to live in GM and their enrollment is down.

Food for thought. Also thanks for spending 12 grand of tax payer money just to not listen to the tax payers. But don't worry we will be out in force for the meeting, and we won't be bullied by you or Mango.

Mickey Mickey
Oct '17

PU- You keep mentioning this development but no one else knows about it. Give us some facts. the reality is you unfortunately live in the Highlands region, so no matter what there won't be any great influx of Children to keep all the GMRSD schools open without paying more taxes or taking in out of district students such as Hackettstown or special ed. Those are your choices - pick one.

Mickey - The benefit to Hackettstown is that your taxes won't go up to pay for additions or a new school. I imagine everyone will see that very simple point.

For the rest of us - regarding the study, If the 2 BOE's took action either way without facts and figures, they would be abdicating their fiduciary responsibilities to their communities. Do you want them to guess and hope they get it right or actually have some data in front of them?

In my house, our children would be forced to bus to GM, and we're not happy about that possibility. But we are smart enough to wait for the facts so we can have an informed opinion and not look like idiots arguing about rumors.

Observation - the personal attacks on Mango, Bordi, Mailloux, O'Melia, et al, need to stop. These men have children and wives and with the exception of the Supt., don't get paid a dime to take this abuse. They are your neighbors people. Would you walk up to them on the street and say these things in front of your family or theirs?

Enough already.

USS Nathan James
Oct '17

USS Nathan James, the development of which I am talking about is to be on Rt. 517 just up from the Quick Check. I do not have the time right now to look up all the facts. But to the best of my knowledge has been approved. With a percentage being low income housing.

Parental Unit Parental Unit
Oct '17

USS Nathan James- Hackettstown taxes will have to go up to support busing and the missing revenue when the tuition payments from GM to HHS will basically be cancelled out by Hackettstown's tuition payments to GMMS. Mango has also said that should GMMS need to build an addition to accommodate a growing population, it would fall solely on the Hackettstown district to pay for it. Why not just build additions to the existing schools in town? Hackettstown taxes will increase regardless of what happens with this study. And, PU is not the only person who knows about the new developments, it's common knowledge. Mango said that they were included in the information for the feasibility study.


I'm all for making an educated decision rather than an emotional one so I am for seeing what this feasibility study results in and will wait for the Nov meeting before making up my mind
As for the survey. A) a very low % of the population participated in it so not sure how much weight you can give it. B) those that did take the survey 82% admitted they didn't attend the meeting so we're they really casting their vote on facts? Only 585ppl in GM voted in the survey


"He is attempting to help one of his districts by using the other. It is not right. He is not looking out for what is best for BOTH districts,"

Really? Doesn't both districts have their own issues. 1 is overcrowded and one is dealing with empty space. So don't both have something to gain from helping each other? Wouldn't the shared services received by GM for the 7&8 graders help offset the Shares services agreement they spend on sending HS kids to hackettstown? That is what I am interested in seeing with this feasibility study.

Jim L Jim L
Oct '17

"To those of you that do not go to meetings and do not read the minutes of those meetings. I present to you the following letter written, read and entered into those minutes by Mrs. Cullen at the July 18,2017 GMRSD B.O.E. meeting"

Hammer I am curious how you were able to quote her letter word for word when the minutes of that meeting have not been posted on the website yet. Where can we non spouses read this letter?

https://www.gmrsd.com/Page/1038

Jim L. Jim L.
Oct '17

Jim the meeting that Hammer is referring to was in July. You reposted the quote with the date. You can look it up yourself, no spouse required.


CMom and PU -

The Tuition to GM + Busing will still be cheaper than building additions or Schools. That's the point. Hackettstown would never approve building an addition to another districts building.

The Rt 517 development has been on the boards for years and would probably not add enough children to fill a classroom, never mind a school.

The developments Mango is taliking about are Bergen tool, Bilby Road, and The Abandoned Mall properties - all in Hackettstown adding to an already overcrowded system.

But again, if we all wait to read the report these points should all be addressed in there and answer all of our questions.

USS Nathan James
Oct '17

CMom the minutes for that meeting have not been posted online yet, hence my question. Where can we read the minutes of the July meeting if they have not been posted online yet?

Jim L. Jim L.
Oct '17

USS- Bilby Road homes are in Independence and the children from those developments go to Great Meadows.

As for the idea of Hackettstown paying for an addition to GMMS if necessary, I'm just repeating what Mr. Mango has said.

As for your statement about the taxes being lower for busing and tuition than building an addition, you are probably correct. But, for a district that is already struggling financially, this won't help! Extra revenue has been touted as one of the benefits of redistricting to Hackettstown. Of course, there will be savings when they lay off teachers, aides, and supporting staff, which is something that I certainly don't want to see happen.

If HMS can hold the third and fourth grade students from WG, then why is the redistricting even necessary? Make HMS 4th-8th and save everyone money.


CMom is correct. We do not necessarily need new schools. We need to balance what we do have. When the moved the line, they created problems. Grade based schools can be the answer. And I'll repeat what I said earlier and not apologize. I did not choose to live in Hackettstown because I wanted my children to go to GM schools. If I wanted that I would have choose to live in GM. Not Hackettstown problem, that people aren't moving to GM to fill up their schools. I'm not so sure it even makes sense to take GM kids to our schools. But I'm sure that involves State aid and other allowances I'm not fully aware of. Seem like Hackettstown is doing all the heavy lifting and giving out the charity.

Mickey Mickey
Oct '17

The existing Bilby Road homes (Oak Hill) are Independence, however the new proposed development on Bilby (Princess Towers) is *not*. Those are on the Hackettstown side over the tracks. Princess Towers has nothing to do with Independence.


FYI

Out of 702 NJ middle schools, Hackettstown Middle school ranks (lower number is better) in the last quadrant at ranking 231, a huge 51 point drop from the previous year. GM Middle school ranks 90. TEACHER: Leave those kids alone where they are, they will only slow the other ones down :>)

https://www.schooldigger.com/go/NJ/schoolrank.aspx?level=2

A second study also shows GM slightly more advanced (higher number is better) in academics 100 to 95. This site is based on testing, so 2008 and back, and has some nice timelines.

https://www.niche.com/k12/search/best-public-middle-schools/s/new-jersey/

But here's one that puts Hackettstown in perhaps the proper perspective for some. It ranks H-town an A- and GM a B-. The winning factor is diversity, of which Hackettstown has little but GM has none. So now you know the rest of the story....... :>)

https://www.niche.com/k12/search/best-public-middle-schools/s/new-jersey/

It's the damned train I tell you, it's the train.........

strangerdanger strangerdanger
Oct '17

Jim,
The minutes from the July meeting were approved at the August meeting even though they are not yet on the district website. If you want to read them, you can contact Mr. Havlush and request a copy. OPRA is for all citizens, not just spouses.

Orange Orange
Oct '17

Mickey, while I appreciate your support, you have things backwards. Hackettstown is the district in financial distress, not Great Meadows. GM is financially sound, despite our drop in enrollment. Redistricting would only serve to benefit Hackettstown. No heavy lifting on your part, we would be the ones with broken backs. This would be nothing more than a bailout.

Mango has been trying for years to change the logistics of Hackettstown. He wanted to build a new school and sell the other two, residents voted against it. He wanted to build an addition to the existing school (Hatchery Hill), residents voted that down. They eventually changed the lines and failed miserably. Now he's coming in like a freight train because he doesn't want to add another failure to the list. Unfortunately, he is dragging our district into something that isn't, and shouldn't be our problem.

With all due respect, we don't want your kids to come to our school as much as you don't want your kids to come to our school! It's nothing personal, but we love our teachers, small class sizes, programs, curriculum, and close knit community.


Mr.Bordi,this blog is providing more information than anything that is provided at either B.O.E. meetings. It is the politics going on here that stink to high heaven. Mr. Mango's clear conflict of interest in representing GMR on this issue is clearly at the top of the list. Next on the list is the $2 million over payment to your district. IT HAS NEVER BEEN EXPLAINED, HOW FOR FOUR CONSECUTIVE YEARS, TWO FINANCIAL PROFESSIONALS WERE NOT ABLE TO CORRECT THIS MISTAKE EVEN THOUGH THIS NUMBER IS CALCULATED ON A YEARLY BASIS,NOR WHO FOUND THIS OUT,WHEN IT WAS FOUND OUT AND HOW IT WAS FOUND OUT. Instead of explaining this behind closed doors .why don't you set the record straight by answering these questions on this site. Next, please explain why renting space at GMR is not being considered? Is the feasibility study going to explore that option? if not why not? the ball is in your court Mr. Bordi I await your reply

hammer hammer
Oct '17

CMom speaking in the first or third person, who are you???


IJAY,you have got to be kidding with that question?

hammer hammer
Oct '17

Both districts and both BOE's(new hires at the schools seem to have less than six degrees of separation too) are so filled with friends and family! Never seen a more political(hiring based on connections, not merit or experience) district anywhere in this state.

sunshinedaydream sunshinedaydream
Oct '17

I don't feel Mr. Bordi needs to come on here and answer your questions Hammer. The proper place to ask and answer these questions was at the public comments portion of the BOE meetings. So my question to you is, did you ask these questions and get answers at the BOE meeting? If not, why not? Wouldn't that be the proper place to ask these questions where they would be part of the official record rather than on some forum?

Jim L. Jim L.
Oct '17

other topics are ok to talk about on the forum, but not this one?

really?

Mr. Bordi took the opportunity to ring in here with comments and opinions, it's perfectly fine to ask him questions and expect him to finish the conversation he freely elected to participate in.

If you don't like the discussion topic then you have the free choice not to read it, but don't tell other people what they can and cannot discuss.

limiting forms of communications and shutting down dissent seems to be the SOP for our local elected leaders.

Hammer brings up a good point, why isn't renting out liberty school an option in the feasibility study? Sounds like a viable choice to me, unless of course there is already a predisposition to one certain outcome.

BrotherDog BrotherDog
Oct '17

there are some things that should be answered on an official public record at a recorded meeting rather than on a forum. Nothing he chimed in about was not already discussed at a public BOE meeting. So if Hammer's questions were not asked at a BOE meeting then they should not be answered here by a member of the Board. They should be answered at a BOE meeting and then if everyone wants to discuss the answers here afterwards go for it.

Jim L. Jim L.
Oct '17

JIM L. Let me inform you of how they run the operation in GMR. They do not record their meeting as they do in Hackettstown. All minutes are filtered/censored according to the dictates of the powers that be. When you go to a meeting you are either cut off or abruptly/rudely spoken to by our board leadershipif they don't like what you are talking about,as evidenced by Mr. Mailloux's abhorrent behavior at our last meeting some of which is explained above. By answering on this blog it informs far more people and allows everybody to participate in the conversation,whether for or against at there leisure. Lastly, Mr. Bordi is a public official, he has an obligation to fully inform his constituency on what is going on and most importantly answer any and all questions regarding their concerns,including the tough ones I posted above. This forum is far superior then any public meeting will ever be. The fact is this post now has over 375 comments and my prior post had over 400. There is no way you can get that amount of discourse at a public meeting.

hammer hammer
Oct '17

Mr. Bordi, I am in receipt of your personal message to me. I have much to say in response, but I do not have enough time to appropriately respond. Needless to say, it will be on this site and not via the phone for the reasons I just explained.

hammer hammer
Oct '17

The fact is this post now has over 375 comments and my prior post had over 400. There is no way you can get that amount of discourse at a public meeting.

Well I will agree with you on that, especially considering as stated in the GM July and August meetings there were 4 & 5 members of the public respectively at those meetings. I guess it's easier to post anonymously on this forum then actually attend meetings and ask questions directly to the board.

Jim L. Jim L.
Oct '17

and I agree with you, reading the minutes of the GM meetings its very vague compared to the Hackettstown BOE minutes.

Jim L. Jim L.
Oct '17

jim, it's like you're not really understanding what is being presented here, I know you as a nice guy who wants to do the right thing, but not everyone else has your inclusive and decent personal style. Please re-read hammer's description as to what actually happens at a BOE meeting. It's bullying and dismissive. not cool. so folks decide to post here. Parents who have children in the school system are afraid to speak out in public because they fear that their children will be treated harshly in the system. (yes, that happens more than you know) so here we are.

it was Mr. Bordi who decided to post here, not you, there is nothing wrong with him being asked and him answering the honest questions right here. why not?

BrotherDog BrotherDog
Oct '17

Amen BrotherDog. Very well stated. Fear of a negative effect on their children is a huge reason people don't speak publicly at BOE meetings: and posting on this forum anonymously allows them to get their opinions made public. It's very sad that people feel that way, but the fact is it happens.

Parental Unit Parental Unit
Oct '17

In 1999 GMR had 1,559 students. We now have approximately 1062. That is a large decrease in enrollment.

In 1999 Central school had 372 students and the Middle school had 488. That is a total for the 2 schools of 860 students. Right now we have a total of about 689 students K-8 in our district. Mr. Mango and the BOE's put out this survey with a number of options, one of which was to move all of the students to Central and the Middle school. What they didn't include was the option of renting Liberty to another school district.
I believe this is a good solution for both districts. Hackettstown would get the room they need for the increases to their enrollment and time to figure out a long term solution.
GM would get the revenue from renting the school and the savings from closing a school that is unnecessary to our needs. If at some point in the years to come we find our enrollment increasing dramatically, we have the option of going back to using all 3 schools.

What the taxpayers of GMRSD need to know is what is the cost and savings breakdown of the options? Would the send/receive option make it necessary for us to keep Liberty open? I estimated before that we could save over 400,000 by closing Liberty but i believe that is a low estimate. It could be much higher. Our BOE needs to do what is fiscally responsible for our district. The cost savings could translate to a year or two with no increase for our school taxes. That would be a welcome relief after 4 years of an average 2.5% increase per year. I hope the feasibility study includes this option. If it doesn't then we need to know why not?

As to the education of the children, my estimate for closing Liberty does not include the loss of a single teacher. I believe the people of GMRSD highly value the teachers in our district and appreciate the good work that they do for our children. That will continue no matter what decision is made.

Indy2 Indy2
Oct '17

Indy2, that is the best solution I've heard. It makes the most sense for both districts. I hope this is something that will be considered. I wonder if that was an option put into the feasibility study.

Parental Unit Parental Unit
Oct '17

Indy - in that scenario, what school district is going to rent Liberty?


Parental Unit,
I hope it is an option that they will consider. Maybe someone on the BOE would know if it is in the study.

MB,
Hackettstown needs the space and GMRSD has it. It just makes sense.

Indy2 Indy2
Oct '17

Folks ,without a doubt renting is the way to go (as I have stated in a prior post) but you must understand this one thing . If you rent out the school that money goes to reducing the budget which is great,everybody would be on board for that including me. The problem is that if you go the sending district 3 card monte slush fund route you will now be bringing all of those Hackettstown teachers onto our payroll, which means that money now becomes part of the budget,which means that increase in spending is now subject to the 2% increase that Mango has been banging us for the past several years. He and Havlush now have two ways to bamboozle the tax payer. You must understand Mango wants that budget to grow,he does not want to cut spending!!!. "The power to tax is the power to control" Oliver Wendell Holmes

hammer hammer
Oct '17

Hammer, this is not meant to be argumentative, but if Hackettstown rents the building and brings their own teachers, why would their salaries be paid by Great Meadows?
I don't understand that. I know the laws pertaining to education are different from the private sector, but if a business rents space, the landlord is not responsible for the employee's salaries. Maintenance possibly, depending on what is in the contract. But why salaries?

Parental Unit Parental Unit
Oct '17

Have to hear from the experts but seems like it's rent money (revenue) in and maintenance/building expenses out.

Since I can't imagine they would charge a profit, not like the bottom line would be much bigger than holding the building. And don't know exactly how the cap it applied, but hammer (perhaps a first) is probably right that a bigger budget with a 2% cap is a bigger cap, dollar wise even if its just holding a building.

I know the answer. We get the number of incoming students, estimate a per pupil charge, and take the money. In two years we will review the "real costs" and modify the two-year old bill accordingly. It's brilliant!!!!

So it's a nice thing to do but if GMR does not need the building, the most cost effective thing to do is sell it. However, given there are no buyers at the door, renting it out might give GMR time to find one.

IMO, scrap the whole thing and do it right on a county-wide regional school system. Quit bootstrapping these little townships into ad hoc quasi regionals and just do it right the first time. Save on administration economies of scale, same with specialty curriculums and other facilities. Have the strategic vision to try to keep elementary small and close to home, middle schools less so and high schools very large and regional. Why? Well, the world is not run like a small village and kids better get used to working in large interconnected environments ASAP to compete in college and thereafter. Now you can deal with logistics and facilities on a much larger scale with much more flexibilities for sharing, whether it be facilities or talent.

Enough said: back to some nit picking..... Someone at BOE working up some rental answers :>)

strangerdanger strangerdanger
Oct '17

Parental unit, That is exactly my point, rent would be income, going directly to reduce our budget and or to our surplus which is flush with cash. Any money that goes into that surplus will have to be returned back to the tax payer. By making it a sending district, all those teachers with all those fat salaries and benefits become part of our annual budget. Mango and our board will bang us for all they can,which has been the full 2% increase compounded every year there after. On top of that, nobody but Havlush and Mango will fully understand where they will be hiding the money with now two sending district formulas in place. Further more,if this gets rammed thru, like I fully expect, that $900,000 that we received On July 1,2017 now becomes part of the budget for 2018 to pay for all the new teachers coming on board from Hackettstown. As I said it is a three card monte game with Mango and Havlush dealing the cards. I will say this, this is one heck of a beautiful thought out scheme.

hammer hammer
Oct '17

Strangerdanger, "Someone on the BOE working on some rental answers." I guess I have a point with you asking /sending out an S.O.S. to your friends on the Board.

hammer hammer
Oct '17

Mr. Bordi, as one of my responses to your note to me.How would Mr. Hespe know to include renting in the feasibility study unless you,or Mr. Mango told him to do so? and if he is not,why not?.

hammer hammer
Oct '17

"I guess I have a point with you asking /sending out an S.O.S. to your friends on the Board." Hammerman, how do you spell success in all this? R E V E N G E? This has got to be one of your more whack-a-doo thoughts. I have never been to a PTA gathering much less a BOE meeting, much less have any BOE friends.....

But stranger than the danger of your asinine assumptions as to who is who, who is friends with who, etc. etc. ---- ask yourself this ---- is there something wrong about flagging a rental solution for the BOE ahead of the meeting so they might have time to prepare? Why not? What would it affect? Were you planning on sneaking up behind them during the meeting to yell: "aha --- there's a rental solution you missed ha ha ha ha....." Why would you not send out an S.O.S?

I mean do you want a solution or do you want something else? And do you really think they needed an S.O.S. and perhaps you were the only one to read between the lines to figure out all those posts about a rental solution meant a rental solution? Brilliant as usual!!

All along you have been crapping about this and that with the sole intent of cut, cut, cut, cut.....spend less, save more. But yet what is your goal? Do you even have one? Or is cut, cut, cut, simply good enough for you? Do you even have a metric of success, a goal, a target or is your true goal just plain ole revenge against people you don't like?

I am betting that you don't even know your own end game, much less be able to express it.

Piece o work you are for sure. BOE member, friend, spouse, S.O.S sender I am not. You are wrong again.

strangerdanger strangerdanger
Oct '17

GMRSD BOE meeting is Tuesday 7:00pm Oct 17th at the GMR middle school

BrotherDog BrotherDog
Oct '17

this is a test to see if the web master/censor will allow me to post.

hammer hammer
Oct '17

I tried to attend the meeting on Oct.17th. The doors were locked and there was no way to get in. Open public meeting should mean the public can attend.

BrotherDog BrotherDog
Oct '17

I think they have a legal problem if they locked you out.....sunshine laws?

strangerdanger strangerdanger
Oct '17

really? You are suggesting the BOE locked out the public? Or could it possibly be you just went to the wrong doors? Last Night at Hackettstown's BOE meeting the front doors to the school were locked, but the meeting was in the cafeteria so those doors were held open.

I find it hard to believe that all the doors to the school were locked and the public was not able to attend.

Jim L. Jim L.
Oct '17

Jim,
Maybe you need to try to go to one of our meetings. The doors were locked. The front doors, the side doors and the cafeteria side doors were locked. I tried all of them. They were holding the meeting in the library. To get in there are 2 sets of doors and then the gated area and then the library doors. All were closed and locked. I could see people sitting in the library. I tried knocking and rang the buzzer. No response. I was not the only person locked out. They even locked out a board member. They knew that people couldn't get in and did nothing about it.

BrotherDog BrotherDog
Oct '17

wow if that's true then that's nuts and 'm at a loss for words. I look forward to going to this joint meeting on 11/21.

Jim L. Jim L.
Oct '17

Easy here Jim. I’d like BD to post some proof. Perhaps a video of him attempting to enter. Otherwise, there’s no proof of another BD lame accusation.

btownguy btownguy
Oct '17

it is the new Fort Knox security system at work. They either have to post someone at the door to let people in who come late or leave the door open until the meeting is over.

hammer hammer
Oct '17

Doesn't look like Superintendents do much. Here is chump making over 200k, what a disgrace. Any comments btown?

https://youtu.be/ZKnaEkfxKrI


Prove this individual “didn’t do much” as a part of their regular job.

btownguy btownguy
Oct '17

How does this video at all explain how the district superintendent did the day to day job? You're really, really reaching here, even for you iJay.

summerrain1 summerrain1
Oct '17

This lady is a clown, so obvious...


iJay - Superintendents do 100% more than you do so our bill to you is $100,000. That's our comment. What a disgrace you chump don't pay us even more for such a last of disgraceful qualifications. If you ever represent *our* town, not the difference of *YOUR* town which you have said is nothing like us. Contact us then.You know nothing of "us". Never had. The rest is an out right lie.


Really GC? 236k for a redundant paper-pushing job based upon staffing of other states? This is a perfect example of why we can't balance our state budget. This is not a town-specific problem in NJ, it is a problem across ALL towns thanks to strong-arm tactics of the NJEA; of course my town (towns over time) has the same problem. All counties are structured the same (I believe this example is from Bergen County).

Keep singing kumbaya under your breath...


iJay, you call it a redundant Job yet you’ve never explained why it’s redundant. Why is it redundant? What let if their job makes it that way?

Also, Superintendents are a different union than the NJEA. Do your homework, bro.

btownguy btownguy
Oct '17

Other states do with far fewer... One thing is to have too many baristas at Starbucks, the other is to have 236k jobs with 6 figure pensions and heavily subsidized medical. Can anyone not see the taxpayer implications???


So all states have the same requirements of their administrators? PA laws, rules and rega are the exact same as NJ? No they’re not.

Other states sure have fewer. And how many of those states are consistently ranked at the top for education?

So I’ll go back to my question...

“iJay, you call it a redundant Job yet you’ve never explained why it’s redundant. Why is it redundant? What let if their job makes it that way?”

btownguy btownguy
Oct '17

Wait-sups are unionized????? surely you must be joking!

Btw, for all intents and purposes sups serve the government in that their primary objective is ensuring that federal, state and local mandates are met (of course money being the prime driver). Whether or not those mandates are useful locally is up for debate...

justintime justintime
Oct '17

For those of you who are supporters of Mrs. Cullen,please make sure you vote for HER ONLY this Tuesday,November 7.Hit skip choices on the other two,who are just like the other 7 that we have now.

hammer hammer
Nov '17

Yes I have btownguy. Many other states can get by with one superintendent per county, that's my answer. Too simple and straightforward for an insider like you huh?


hammer, if there are 2 seats open and only one candidate is voted for, who fills the second vacancy? We are then left one member short. What happens then?

Parental Unit Parental Unit
Nov '17

Parental unit, By voting for Mrs. Cullen only, you are insuring that the one person you do want on the board is on the board. By voting for one of the other two you are helping the people who do not want her on the board. Putting it another way,if Mrs Cullen were to loose by one vote and your vote was it, how would you feel about that. It does not matter which of the other two win,as one of them must,they are both drinking the B.O.E. kool aid, especially Ms. Wysoki who is a member of the N.E.A..

hammer hammer
Nov '17

But hammer, if everyone does as you request (though highly unlikely) and skips voting for either of the other two candidates, neither of them win. Unless I am not understanding your proposal, your request is very flawed. The voters are instructed to chose two. If and I emphasize IF everyone votes for only Mrs. Cullen, she absolutely gets the position. But who chooses the person to fill the empty seat? In your scenario, neither of them would have any votes.

Parental Unit Parental Unit
Nov '17

Parental unit , after reading all of the other comments on this post,do you really think no one is going to vote for one of the other two???. The probability of what you are suggesting is zero. Who ever the top two vote getters are win the positions, the last one is out,it is that simple. What the rules are if the bottom two are tied is another story. That possibility is far more likely and which is why I urge you to only vote for one!

hammer hammer
Nov '17

Tim Koeller would be an excellent choice for a seat on the Board of Education.

Kentuckymom Kentuckymom
Nov '17

I agree and said it will not happen, which is why I thought your suggestion for everyone to vote for only one candidate and skip the other two was ludicrous.

This conversation is nonsense and I regret responding to it. I am finished.

Have a good night.

Parental Unit Parental Unit
Nov '17

Kentuckymom,I would suggest you post your personal message to me. Let your voice be heard. As far as my supporting/voting for Mr. Koeller,I will not. Though if I had a gun to my head I would vote for him without a doubt because Ms. Wilkie is a card carrying member of the N.E.A..Does Mr. Koeller have children in the school ? I bet he does! which automatically compromises his objectivity but he would be a far better choice then Ms Wilkie because He just might surprise us all, including me.

hammer hammer
Nov '17

Hammer, you’re just laughable. “They have kids in the school so they are compromised”. Yes... compromised in wanting the best possible education for their (and thus all) students.

I suggest you all vote against Hammer’s wife, Mrs. Cullen, so we can watch Hammer meltdown and iNayNay do more crazy dances. I find it very entertaining.

btownguy btownguy
Nov '17

Mr Hammer

I fullly support what Mrs. Cullen is trying to do. She is keeping the taxpayers in mind when voting on budget items that may not improve the education that our children are receiving. In my opinion, Tim Koeller could help in these circumstance. Tim Koeller does have children in this district and I believe he will build on the success Great Meadows has achieved Again this is only my opinion, but I have known Tim for many years as a trustworthy and honorable family man. Tim Koeller will be an asset to our Great Meadows Board of Education.

Kentuckymom Kentuckymom
Nov '17

I agree with Kentuckymom. Tim has a strong moral compass and will stand up for what is right. I think the board needs someone like that. Hammer, I don’t know that that necessarily means lower taxes, but I’m hoping he won’t sit by while certain board members and administrators act like a bunch of bullies towards the few members of the public who are brave enough to show up at these meetings month after month.

I vote for integrity, and Tim Koeller definitely has my vote. Susan Cullen has my other vote because she does not sit idly back like the rest of the board while Mango appears to be building his resume at the expense of our district. And she does so while other board members bite her head off for it. They are nasty and hostile.

Orange Orange
Nov '17

I have to agree with Hammer on this one. I will only be marking one box on the ballot, for Susan Cullen. She brings balance to the BOE and keeps the community and taxpayers in mind while also making great choices for the students of GM.

PU- voting exclusively for Mrs. Cullen will ensure that your vote counts positively for her without the risk of cancelling it out with a vote for a second candidate. If I HAD to choose between the other candidates, I would vote for the one who has not yet used their position for personal gain (see Rich's post above). In my opinion, the other two candidates are cut from the same cloth, campaigning as a team would be the "proof in the pudding". To be fair, I don't know Tim Koeller, but you are judged by the company that you keep!


This entire thread is such a sad commentary on the values of our community. In the majority of cases board members are voted for based on how many friends they have, not their qualifications. Somewhere on this thread it was said there would be a "meet the candidates" night to speak with them and learn what plans they had for our district. I was not aware of any such meeting taking place. It's certainly possible that I missed it, but I do my best to keep up with what is going on. Was there such a night? If not, why not? I no longer have children in the district, and I don't know any of the candidates, nor what they plan to do for our school. But I am a taxpayer and I will say that I am not happy with how my tax dollars are being spent in the school district. Things have to change. It seems that whatever Mr. Mango wants the B.O.E votes his way. I have no idea who to vote for. And reading all these posts does not help me with that decision.

Parental Unit Parental Unit
Nov '17

Parent unit

You are correct. We never had a meeting to go over the issues facing our school district. That would be a wonderful event for both parents of Great Meadow students and the taxpayers of Great Meadows. Please come to the November 21 feasibility study meeting. It will be held at the Great Meadows middle school at 7.00.

Kentuckymom Kentuckymom
Nov '17

I plan on being there Kentuckymom.

Parental Unit Parental Unit
Nov '17

PU- As someone who is present at most BOE meetings, I can tell you that there are only two board members who don't spend our tax dollars frivolously, Susan Cullen is one of them. That is why she has my vote and 100% backing. I don't know her personally and my only motivating factor is a balanced BOE. Mango is only interested in notoriety and will do anything to bring attention to himself. We need board members who will make thoughtful and rational decisions that will benefit the students and community alike, not ones that will just follow the pack. All but two board members recently voted "yes" to a budget that no one had even seen yet! That's ludicrous! If you are still not convinced, scroll up to read Rich' s post about just one of the ways that the current board uses their positions to be self serving, with the exception of Susan and Bill. Cullen not being re-elected would be disastrous and leave only one rational thinker on the board.

I'll leave you with one more thought. The following is from a Lehigh Valley Live article in 2012, when Mango was first approved as the superintendent of GM (and Hackettstown):

'O'Melia said the district isn't looking to Mango to make changes.

"We're looking for him to support our administrators to carry out the goals and objectives we had already established," he said.'

We are now on the brink of a MAJOR change to the district and O'Melia and the rest of the Mango followers are right behind him. Ironically, O'Melia is a card carrying member of the NJEA, yet has no problem taking the jobs of many excellent teachers to allow this redistricting to occur.


CMom, It’s always funny to me when people who hide behind a screen name report on the board of education and seem to know how we think. I know you would never run for the board because that would be a conflict. I mean imagine having to postabout yourself.

I don’t really know if you have ever been to a board meeting because clearly you know very little about the board and the members. I would have to say it sure would seem like you do know Mrs. Cullen and have spoken to her based on what you’re writing here. It’s fine to have your opinion about Mrs. Cullen, because it makes a lot of sense to have someone on the board with no vested interest in the education of our children. A person who consistently votes NO to our policies, teachers, administrators, budget, and most everything else seems to have a real passion for education. I mean anyone who goes out and steals other candidate signs, turns the bags inside out and makes their own sign is a fine upstanding person who should be voting on our kids education. However, your comments about the board are innacurate (by that I mean lies). How do you know everyone on the board but two members voted yes to the budget but didn’t read it? The answer is you don’t and so that’s a lie. My quote about Mr. Mango you reference when we hired him is from 2012. I don’t know if you know this but it’s 2017 now and I have no idea what it has to do with anything going on today. Just to help you out, a lot of things have changed in 5 years.

We are coming up to a big decision regarding the Hackettstown 7/8 grade students. As a board, we haven’t had any discussions about it. So, I don’t know why you would suggest that the majority of board members are behind Mr. Mango? None of the board members have any information about this and it’s why we are all waiting until November 21 to hear the feasibility study. So once again, you are lying.

Now the good old sentence that you and others like to say on the forum about me being a teacher or “card carrying member of the NJEA” is interesting. I am proud of my profession. It’s a profession that touches so many lives and helps so many children and young adults. The future success of our country depends on teachers to prepare our children for this future. So you’re statement, although you mean it in a derogatory way, just makes me proud to teach.

For you to say I have no problem taking the jobs of many excellent teachers is a blatant lie. But it’s easy for you to say this because you hide behind a fake name.

The bottom line is this CMom. I get it, you’re friends with Mrs. Cullen and you want people to vote for her. That’s fine. But lying about the board, board members and myself is cowardly. I’d offer to talk to you so we could have a conversation but I know you prefer to hide. It’s ok, I understand, snowflakes like their safe spaces.

Ed O’Melia Ed O’Melia
Nov '17

Amen Mr. O'Melia!!
I cannot imagine the job that you and the rest of the board have to do. It's a thankless, Payless job and unfortunately for you and the rest it's definitely no popularity contest.
I am an outsider, but, I can see how frustrated you must all get when people who have no idea what goes on behind the scenes decide to righteously voice their opinions.
So now is when everyone starts to post: Why is it behind the scenes, we should know everything!!
But the fact is I am sure when your committees meet there are lots of disagreements and "standing up to Mango" as everyone on here states.
The fact is people, by the time the ideas get on an agenda they are already hashed out and argued over. That is the time that the "final" vote is carried.
You all need to give these people a break. The ones who are in it for the right reasons are there for the kids and the community. There are so many variables that go.into these decisions, that unless you sit on the board you will never understand.
Go out and vote tomorrow not based on your biased vs Mr. Mango, but for the people who sit on the BOE for exactly what it is. It is in place to make sure that the children get the best education possible, within the means of the tax payers. And do yourselves and everyone else out there a favor. Educate yourselves on everything that goes into these decisions before passing judgement. Good luck Agatha and Tim.

Tiredofthelies Tiredofthelies
Nov '17

If anyone had any questions about our BOE, this is our president, ladies and gentlemen. A true leader, who can work with anyone, values the opinions of others, and respects his fellow board members, parents, and community members.

It is completely unacceptable as president of the BOE to talk about a sitting member the way that you have. Not surprising considering the reputation that the board has for speaking poorly to the parents, too.

Things certainly have changed in the last five years. Five years ago, you said that the BOE would be running the district, but Mango is driving this train and you all follow his tracks. You are throwing away our tax dollars as if we've got money to burn. You may have a money tree in your backyard, but the rest of us don't. Voting yes to everything that is brought in front of you doesn't make you a responsible board member or someone looking out for the best interest of the students, it makes you reckless! I proudly stand behind someone who thinks of the community members/tax payers. Susan votes yes when it matters, to the quality programs that make sense for everyone. The problem is that she is in the minority!

I may be hiding behind a computer and keyboard, but you are hiding behind something far worse; your arrogance and ignorance. This lack of transparency is why there are no board members in attendance at the town council meetings (as there are supposed to be) to take accountability for your yearly tax hikes. The BOE has far too much power and no one to answer to. Almost 70% of our tax dollars are allocated to the school system. You have no pulse on the community. Independence Township's median age is in the late 40's, Liberty Township's median age is in the mid 50's, you are robbing people of their chances to retire! Houses in this area won't sell because of high taxes and our school rankings aren't nearly high enough to support those taxes because you focus on half million dollar security systems that are a joke! Add another $6,000 to that for our share of the feasibility study when we all know the results are guaranteed. Don't insult our intelligence by telling us that you know nothing about the impending results. My question is how are you going to justify voting "yes" when all three town mayors and councils are vehemently against it, as well as the majority of parents and community members?

It's amusing how many times that you used the word "lying" in reference to my post, yet never offered the "truth". Why don't you enlighten me about what I am lying about so that I can systematically, point by point, tell you what I really know; with proof. I welcome the challenge.

You've just revealed yourself far better than any of us on this forum could have, Ed, so an immense amount of thanks for that!

As for the snowflake comment, isn't that a little overplayed at this point? That being said, I'd rather be a a unique, free thinking snowflake (no two are alike) than anything like you and and your fellow six minions!

PS I am a fellow card carrying NJEA member, but my ego isn't nearly as inflated, and I hold respect and admiration for my fellow teachers; the ones that you will not consider when casting your vote in January!


Mr.O"Melia, Your diatribe above is beyond belief. When you come up for election I will be doing all I can to make sure that all you do is teach. You are a menace to the tax payers of this town!

hammer hammer
Nov '17

Cullenmom is right, Ed... you revealed yourself. And I would happily vote for you.

btownguy btownguy
Nov '17

good job Eddy boy, you have yet again shown clearly who you really are, an ill tempered small minded man who has no idea how he is being perceived, i hope and pray the good hearted folks in the community takes full notice

come on dude, keep posting, the more you vent the better you show yourself for who you truly are, a mean spirited bully who has never seen a tax increase he didn't like, so come on man, come after me now, you know you want to,

your schools are not highly rated, your math programs are woefully inadequate and not preparing students for high school level math, your high tax rates are lowering home values making it increasingly difficult to sell houses in a highly competitive market, and you just keep pushing your weight around town like you own everything, what a bunch of hogwash.

i urge all good people of stout hearts and clear minds to vote for only one candidate, the one right candidate who will truly represent the values of both students and community - vote cullen

BrotherDog BrotherDog
Nov '17

"Collectivism means the subjugation of the individual to a group-whether to a race,class or state,it does not matter. Collectivism holds that man must be chained to collective action and collective thought for the sake of what is called the 'common good'." Ayn Rand

hammer hammer
Nov '17

Teaching is a noble profession.

The NJEA is not a noble entity.

Total compensation of teaching professionals is excessive resulting in a tax burden to NJ residents.


Brotherdog, hammer, ijay
Why is it every time Ed O'Melia decides to stand up for himself and the board you feel.he is being a bully.
Do you all not see that the things GS that you say on here are in fact bullying comments.
At least he's man enough to use his real name.
Go ahead call me a hypocrite. But unlike him I do not trust this radical group to not make me a target.

Tiredofthelies Tiredofthelies
Nov '17

Tired- So you agree with Ed making derogatory comments about Susan Cullen, a fellow BOE member? You believe that it is appropriate and necessary to make defamatory comments about a colleague in order to "defend" himself? Do you think that it was in good taste for an elected official to call me a "snowflake"? My guess is that you answered "yes" to all of these questions, seeing as how you were making nasty comments about Mrs. Cullen' s age not long ago. You suggested that she move into a retirement community, right? Every last thing that you say is hypocritical! Do you consider yourself a "bully" or is that term only used to refer to people with a different opinion than your own?

This is the difference between all of us and Ed O'Melia; he was voted into this position by the people of this district, to make decisions that are in the best interest of the students AND the community. He was entrusted with a great responsibility and when he is not performing to our standards, we have every RIGHT to make our concerns and frustrations known! If you can't deal with public dismay, than you should be in public office. It's incredulous the way that this BOE speaks to, and about, community members and fellow BOE colleagues.


Cullen Mama, you need to simmer down.

btownguy btownguy
Nov '17

Hey Btownguy, your schtick is getting really old. You represent everything that Mrs. Cullens supporters despise.

hammer hammer
Nov '17

Cmom
All I'm saying is he is talked about, bullied, put down for personal reasons not having to do with board decisions. Then when he transparently gives it back all of a sudden he is a bully. The Cullens are at meetings with their ignorant friends degrading board members almost every month. I'm saying everyone has a right to defend themselves, even Susan Cullen, but bravo to him for doing it under is real name.
Cmom or Cullen mom; sooner or later your motives will be revealed.
Good luck to you then. Stop playing the victim!!

Tiredofthelies Tiredofthelies
Nov '17

Tired- Please let me know when you decide whether I am a bully, victim, or mischievous mastermind with a motive!

Give me a break! You are practically incoherent at this point!

That good luck that you wished me when all is revealed sounds like a veiled threat. Seems to me that you just crossed a line.

For the record, I never played a victim and I never will.


Really? You talk about how Mr. O'Melia, Mr. Mailloux and other board members bully the people that attend the meetings. You also state that you attend the meetings so when don't you play the victim?.The truth is you have no idea what goes on behind the scenes and never will. Yesterday you cast judgement on people who are here to help for no pay or even gratitude..I am a tax payer in this town as well as a parent and I stand behind our board and the positive changes it has made and will.make for the future of the town and the schools.
Everyone has negative things to say about tax payer money. However, were any of you at the last meeting? Did you see how much money is being saved with our special Ed programs? Do these positive things ever get mentioned?
Safety big topic now. Everyone complains about the vestibules, but you know what? Safety of my child is important as is all of the other children.
One to one initiative? If course let's get with the times..Move forward with technology.
Curriculum? New director =better changes. Have you even read the new curriculum?
I could go on but no need. This board and Mr Mango have made significant improvements to these schools!
Let's talk about that!

Tiredofthelies Tiredofthelies
Nov '17

Results from yesterdays election. Susan Cullen 639 Koeller 616 Wilkie 503.

hammer hammer
Nov '17

Thank you to everyone who voted. It doesn't matter if you voted for me or not, just thank you for taking the time to make your voice heard. I am proud and honored to serve our community. Yes, I have children in our school district and I want the best for them and all our children. I am also a tax payer in our community just like all of you. I will do my very best to do what is right and not be bias. When I decided to run for the Board of Education I knew that if elected I would never be able to keep everyone happy all of time, but this forum kind of scares me a little bit. I look forward to when my term on the Board starts and seeing everyone at the Board Meetings.

Tim Koeller Tim Koeller
Nov '17

Tired, she can’t talk about the improvements. They don’t fit her narrative.

btownguy btownguy
Nov '17

tim - congrats on being elected, wish you well in your tenure. all the best to you and (if i may be allowed to quote a long time poster on this forum) "blessed be"

BrotherDog BrotherDog
Nov '17

Congratulations on your win, Tim. We look forward to a new and fresh set of eyes and ears. I appreciate your desire to do your very best, and your commitment to the students and community. This forum can be scary but our frustrations come from not being heard and a lack of transparency. I must admit that I had concerns with regard to your "running mate", but I have heard only wonderful things about you and trust that you will be an excellent addition to the BOE. The board is in desperate need of balance and the community has put our confidence in you to provide that. I wish you good luck going forward in your new position.


"Safety big topic now. Everyone complains about the vestibules, but you know what? Safety of my child is important as is all of the other children."

I know this is a tangent and that the horse has already left the barn, but I'd be interested to see the study about safety today vs years past. Does the BOE have this report online or would I need to make an information request?

The reason I ask is because every time I've glanced at the FBI crime statistics site over the past ten years or so after hearing claims about how bad things are, I can't find the numbers that show significant changes over time (only what I'd call normal oscillations). Interestingly, the big-picture stats have generally said that crime has (or maybe it's had now?) been trending down since the '80's.

justintime justintime
Nov '17

the vestibules bring no safety to the schools. They just let parents feel there is safety. The vestibules don't prevent a student from bringing a gun to school as there is no metal detector or bag check. And the glass used is not ballistic proof so if someone really wanted to get in with a gun the glass isn't going to stop them. All the vestibule does is help with guests coming in and making sure they are let in. Which could have been done with out spending all that $ on the vestibules.

Jim L. Jim L.
Nov '17

Amen Jim L.

A lot of money for a placebo.

USS Nathan James
Nov '17

Jim L.spot on,bravo, some one who gets it. It was a waste of our tax dollars but this board would rather spend it then give it back to the tax payers. My only consolation is that this spent money is not part of the spending cap that Mango can hammer me with 2% increases to infinity!. Mr. Koeller, I congratulate you on winning your seat. If circumstances were different I would have voted for you. I hope you can bring some courage to this board and finally have a member who can think critically to bring other points of view that are deliberately suppressed by Mr. O,Melia and friends. You have an enormous amount of political power in your hands at this point and time. If you want to stop this power play of defacto regionalization you will have to persuade Mr.Schmitz (who has his home up for sale and pays over $13,000 a year In property taxes) and Mrs. Frost (who seams to be reasonable to proper persuasion) from this being forced upon the taxpayers of Independence. I will be watching you carefully, as will a whole lot of other people. You have chosen to enter a cauldron of politics. I hope you have the back bone to stand up for what you believe is right.

hammer hammer
Nov '17

"Watched carefully" " caldron of politics""backbone to stand up" this thread is really unbelievable.

Indie Indie
Nov '17

Those vestibules are such a sore subject to me. In my opinion, they offer no reasonable increase of safety for the children given the enormous cost to the taxpayers of both Independence and Hackettstown property owners. Thank you Mr. Mango and the Boards of Education who approved it. All this unnecessary spending must stop. I hope the newly elected member will have the courage and determination to prevent all the frivolous spending of our hard earned tax dollars.

Parental Unit Parental Unit
Nov '17

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