Bergen Tool Project Phase 2: Townhomes and Apartments
As promised, new thread about phase 2 of the project which is currently to house 66 townhomes, 42 apartments and ~15,600 sq ft of retail, 3 acres of open space and a retention pond.
PB Meeting for August canceled:
PLEASE TAKE NOTICE THAT the Chairman of the Hackettstown Planning Board, after consulting with the Board Attorney and the Town Engineer, has cancelled the regular meeting scheduled for Tuesday, August 23, 2016 at 7:30 PM.
Case #16-01, Jade Hackettstown Associates, LLC
Block 21, Lot 18
At the request of the applicant, the above application is being requested to be carried to the next regular meeting of the Hackettstown Planning Board scheduled for Tuesday, September 27, 2016 without further notice.
The next regular meeting is scheduled to be held Tuesday, September 27 2016 at the Municipal Building, 215 Stiger Street, Hackettstown, New Jersey, and will be held at 7:30 PM.
well what did the engineer say at your secret meeting?
The regularly scheduled meeting of the Hackettstown Planning Board will be held
Tuesday, September 27, 2016 at 7:30 PM in the Municipal Building, 215 Stiger street, Hackettstown, New Jersey.
1. Sunshine Act
2. Roll Call
3. Pledge of Allegiance
4. Approval of minutes – July 26, 2016
5. Resolutions – None
6. Case #16-01, Jade Hackettstown Associates, LLC
Block 21, Lot 18
7. Public Hearing by the Town of Hackettstown Regarding Designation of a Non-
Condemnation Area in Need of Redevelopment
Block 125, Lot 9.01
8. Old Business
9. New Business
Here we go again with Darren's platform
I'm sure many appreciate Darren's information or viewpoint. Those opposed to his views seem to take advantage of the opportunity to debate him.
Darrin, thanks for the update and helping to keep the community informed. For those who have concerns about this project, this will be a meeting you want to be at to voice your concerns.
Chris, Appreciate Darrin giving everyone the heads up... Steve and I have concerns but it seems a certain somebody likes to make public how many meetings we did not attend..
I suggest he quit browbeating us about it. ..And BTW there were many meetings in the beginning of this project that we attended also with you and Keith and Darrin.WE also collected data .He was no where to be found! Just sayin.
Sounds like alot more people could move into Hackettstown if this goes through. Can our schools handle the influx?
The school superintendent has been discussing this with the community and its stakeholders for over 2 years.
The school district has completed demographic studies for both this project as well as Bilby Rd. Additionally, this was discussed through strategic planning & community open meetings when discussing of moving the school boundary lines and the subsequent impact to the district. The school administration has been working with the board of education to prepare for the impending impact during the budget process.
All of this information including the detailed demographic study and facility presentation are readily available to review on line at the district website, please call or e mail if you have any concerns.
I am very interested in knowing how CVS feels about the apparent "shared parking" that will allow town home residents, apartment residents, and retail shoppers to utilize CVS's parking lot.
Considering Phase 2 was so close to being approved last time, yet they missed last month's meeting, makes me wonder what this next planning board meeting will bring. We definitely need residents to show up! Tell your neighbors! Get people there!
6. Case #16-01, Jade Hackettstown Associates, LLC
Block 21, Lot 18
(CARRIED TO OCTOBER 25, 2016)
I'm excited but cautious. I'm sure it will be great. The type of town homes approved will bring many good families to the town. I'm only concerned that there could be an absence of non-CVS retailers and we'd have a big empty mall in just north of "downtown".
"type" and "good" mean what exactly? Ones that don't shop at Dollar General or Fruti-Mex? I guess by "non-CVS retailers" you mean CVS will be the only business in the "mall" area and the other properties will be vacant? That part didn't make much sense to me since all other retailers besides CVS would be "non-CVS", but that's an odd way to state it, unless we should be reading between the lines.
Thank you Phil. This guy is relentless. A bigot at 28 years old this day and age? Bigotry is taught, no one is born a bigot. Really makes me wonder about his parents..
My daughter will be 26 and her mindset is the opposite of 1988LJ. Apparently she was raised quite differently than he was.
No, I don't mean like that. I'm not insulting other stores. I'm saying that if other retailers don't move into the center, then it would be empty which would be sad. Don't read between the lines for God's sakes. I was just implying that if no stores other than CVS move in, then it would be empty. And the comment about the town homes was just me expressing my pleasure that these will not be 8-story council tower blocks like you might find out east. Chill out, everyone.
"Really makes me wonder about his parents.."
Do you have kids positive (sorry, I can't recall if you've ever mentioned it)? If you do then you also know that raising your kids isn't just about what *you* teach them, but also about what you have to un-teach them, specifically from the school environment. IMO that was the hardest thing about raising my kids when they were small - the things they brought home were actually shocking at times. So while I agree that bigotry is a learned behavior, I don't agree that it's strictly a parental thing. There are many, many more areas of society that can shape bigotry more than just the home...
Man people are so quick to try to label people!
I think what he was saying is he is afraid the new retail space that is to be built may not get tenants.
Bravo positive. You are 100% right.
Couldn't have said it better.
Justintime - positive mentioned right in her post, that you commented on, that she has a 25 year old daughter-
1888LJ - That clearly wasn't all you said - "my pleasure that these will not be 8-story council tower blocks like you might find out east." I wonder how many people are familiar with that term since it doesn't exist in this country. Or how many realize just how much you confirmed what you said initially.
GC- I don't understand. Is that an offensive term? Do you want huge council flats being constructed in Hackettstown?
Maybe everyone should go to the next meeting and promote low income housing. That would eliminate any current, unsafe overcrowding in rentals. As long as it is subsidized by the federal government, I think it's a good alternative use of the space. Maybe even a higher property tax property for the town then.
1988LJ - I know you don't understand. You're in America. You've used a half dozen British terms that people here are unlikely to know, and most don't apply. You're lucky if a few people know the term "flat" for an apartment let alone "Council Estate" or "Tower Block". Those are unknown terms, and things aren't done that way in America.
So....why are you mad at 1988LJ for using "British terms that people here are unlikely to know, and most don't apply" I am confused....what are you implying GC?
Never said anything about being mad Darrin. I'm trying to let 1888LJ know no one understands what they're saying.
Sorry, I wasn't trying to be confusing. It's just my 4 years of undergrad in London coming through, I figured those were the best words to use since I didn't want to say "projects" because that has a bit of a racial connotation. Not trying to cause any confusion. Those were just the best words I could think of.
But you get my point. I don't want government or low-income housing, not necessarily because of the people who live in those situations but because of the crime and lower living standards they bring. Not so much the racial or economic aspect.
Almost every thread 1988LJ has commented on contains some type of bigotry and snobbery. Many of his posts are so bigoted it's beyond ridiculousness.
I apologize to those who don't get it, but when it's something I feel strongly about..sitting on my hands just won't do...
JIT, I agree, however from my experience bigotry is mostly derived from upbringing. Of course the outside environment is another factor, but I still think the majority of the underlying problem comes from within the family.
Thank you BBU..I appreciate it!
Positive, I am never bigoted of snobby. I'm sorry if you enjoy posting hate towards people online that you don't even know, I was raised to treat people on the Internet and in real life with respect and kindness especially when you don't know them. I'm sure your life is unhappy but don't try and make other people unhappy as well.
1988LJ, just do a forum search of all your posts and think about how others would perceive them....
LOL, subsidized by the federal government means you and me -- the taxpayers.
No silver bullet here, but a lot of the solutions are not politically correct...
Maybe low income housing is a good thing; I don't know our stats there, I think we need more LIH units, but state-wide comparison wise, our housing prices are already pretty low. Cheaper here than most places in NJ.
Who's to say folks won't overcrowd low income housing, just sayin.
Pretty sure NIMBY will apply here to the neighborhood.
Pretty sure it will end up looking like, if not more condensed, the townhome neighborhood behind Dunkin Donuts. Surrounded by high density and commercial, it seems pretty tight. Low income, low middle, starter, whatever --- they may look pretty nice, clean, etc., but too crowded is not good IMO.
And that's my point. I understand the need for LIH, but to cram them into a small area with more pavement than grass, compounded by narrow roads able only to support one-way traffic while skimming off a few acres in the back for open space and a retention pond seems a bit weird. If the open space is designed as a buffer or wall, that will compound the overcrowding issue. Hopefully it will be designed to make the space open for everyone as an extension to the town home community and not just wall off the town homes cramming too many people for the space. Or blend the townhomes around the open space in a horseshoe leaving the back end open for a more harmonious outcome for Darrin's home and the other contiguous neighbors.
Maybe somebody can explain to me what exactly "low income housing" means in this situation... Are we talking about houses that are "cheap", driven by market demands... Or is this some other type of government driven/sanctioned/controlled situation?
There's probably only going to be a few low income housing units available. Usually, when a developer wants to build condo or townhomes, they have to legally set aside several units available for low income housing. Not sure if the rules apply, in this situation.
In 2013 this developer showed interest in buying out of the LIH aspect, but who knows if this is still the case, they have changed the plans and their minds so many times since then.
"Rice said he would pay $250,000 for 10 apartments toward the town's Council on Affordable Housing requirement, which mandates municipalities provide affordable housing for low- and moderate-income residents."
Mind you, the plans they discussed at that time are not the same as we are currently seeing.
sparks - Check the previous Bergen thread. All of that was discussed ad nauseum. Any talk of COAH is FUD, which answer's brendan's question that there is no meaning in this situation. That's because the developer also has the option to pay into a fund for future development. That was the choice announced long ago so there is no COAH at the Bergen site. It's also been settled long ago that the Princess Towers site on Bilby would be where COAH housing would be included. However, the whole rules involved keep changing over time so what exactly that involves and how many units may well change.
1888LJ - I apologize then, I thought I was helping a Brit who didn't know they wouldn't be understood. Since you're an American who happens to know the terms, you chose those so people wouldn't understand the class division they imply.
GC, just because the developer has showed interest in buying out of COAH does not necessarily mean it could not happen...right?
Correct me if I am wrong, but in what formal, permanent way has the developer stated there will not be COAH?
Everything else has changed at one point or another, and we still do not have approved plans...........
Just a reminder there is a meeting tonight at 7:30pm but Jade phase two was carried to the October meeting. Maybe they can explain to us why they were so close to being approved last time, and now they keep missing meetings?
I think it will be the October meeting, but I would think tonight they will discuss, or at least fill us in on why Jade has not been back since a few meetings ago.
Jade did not show and they explained that the meeting would be carried to October.
Big thank you to Jim Lambo for requesting that being it has been so long since their last meeting (90 days) that Jade should have to re-notice. I 100% agree with that and he actually got the board on board (no pun intended) and now the developer (Jade) will have to re-notice prior to the next meeting they intend to be at.
This is good because there is a great deal of people who live around this property who now will know the meeting is still ongoing. Various members of the public have brought the issue up to the board on more then one account. At least someone was listening!
Again, thank you, we appreciate things like that!
It seems the meeting has been pushed off yet again..........
6. Case #16-01, Jade Hackettstown Associates, LLC
Block 21, Lot 18
(carried to November 22, 2016)
I do not know whats going on here....but I did get this letter in the mail today from Whitman about the site and contaminates found getting into the ground water
If anyone wants the scanned originals pm me with your email and I will send them to you so they are easier to read.
Those contaminant levels don't look good. That should delay any more building for a while.
I find it strange that they told us the site was good to go at how many meetings now, and then this.......There is a bunch of contaminates in there I do not believe they ever disclosed at the meetings.
But then again at least they are honest and caught it and will be correcting it.....lets hope the contaminated water did not travel past main street like they think, that could be a entirely different mess if it did.
I wonder if any of this effects the CVS site? They "said" that was clean too
Hmmmmm.......thanks for making us aware of this ..this is important. What did they think? Idiots.
The contamination at Bergen Tool does not surprise me at all. I worked there one Summer after College and part of my job was to empty 55 gallon barrels of steel sludge waste directly onto the ground. Several mounds of this sludge existed in the back of the Bergen Tool property. This sludge had to penetrate deep into the ground after years of rainfall and snow. Not good
Thanks for letting me and my neighbors know this I live in back of the Bergen Tool property Fourth Street and East Stiger Street....this is very very bad news...
PUBLIC HEARING ON TUESDAY, NOVEMBER 22, 2016 AT 7:30PM AT THE MUNICIPAL BUILDING 215 STIGER STREET, HACKETTSTOWN, NJ
NOTICE: JADE Hackettstown Associates LLC has applied to the planning board of the Town of Hackettstown for preliminary and final major subdivision approval. Applicant seeks the approvals to among other things, construct 108 multi-family residential dwelling units consisting of 66 townhomes and 42 apartments. Commercial space with related parking and a new municipal roadway to connect Bergen and Stiger Streets.
Is that what the certified mailing said?
The post office lost mine, so I have been unable to see it
Yes Darrin also says storm water management system and recreation trail to be constructed as well.
This registered letter came from Lavery's Law-firm. He was the previous Mayor correct?
It seems like it is the same letter that they sent out last time?
Selvaggi is representing Jade....Lavery, who was the formere mayor, is in the firm that Selvaggi is part of
I didn't see certified letter and I live right across the street from CVS Pharmacy?
cloudyday, come to the meeting Tuesday and tell the attorney prior to the meeting. If they did not properly notify, they have to re-notify and the meeting may have to be pushed back
The post office lost mine. I received a notice in my mailbox, when I went to pick it up, they could not find it
It is the same law firm that has represented Jade from the beginning of this project so I'm not sure why it would be a surprise to anyone who has attending past planning board meeting.
And yes it is the same letter that went out last time, they just needed to re-notice so the same letter is fine, just update the date of the meeting.
Thanks for the info, GC. Just saw it now, because I haven't been keeping up with this particular forum. The Trump one, kept me very busy, LOL
Maja...just might be on to something, here, sarcastic or not. As far as I know, you cannot have any felony record, to qualify for anything. That would mean that the low income housing clientele, would be mostly seniors, who have no supplement to social security, or a younger couple, who both work at low paying jobs. Point is, they have worked all their lives or are working now. Criminals can't get jobs, and there still has to be income verifications. Credit check probably applies. Must be approved by the board. I guess the apartments would be rented and the townhomes sold at the "affordable housing" rate, which is just about the same as market value. Maybe low income housing would be good, but you guys are more up to date, with information, and I value your opinions.
Wasn't there a detail on the letter that was a little off?
I remember the town attorney discussing it with the board that the notice should be adjusted, but Savaggi saying their letter was a catch all.
I think it was something about the size of the patios? and the to street distance?
Also, since last we saw, they moved a parking lot into the open space, the open space is no longer actually 3 acres is it?
Wow sparksjbc1964, that was some logic trail....sarcastic or not, time to put down the blunt :>)
Sure Felons can get low income housing unless on sex registry or housing project meth dealers. Even without this, I could take factually question the rest of your walk through the logic woods, but given the first step was into a mud puddle, I'll let you say ooops.
When I worked for a builder/developer in a different state, we used to put up middle-class single-family starter homes and rather nice townhomes, a little too nice for COAH. So rather than pay off the state, or build COAH housing amongst higher value homes, we would put up our standard unit and then rent it for X years at COAH levels offering the renter a buyout at the end of the contract (or we sold the house). I forget the time frame: 3, 5 years??
Funny thing is, apparently we applied so four young men ended up in a brand new home for COAH rent rates. Since we built it, we added some rooms, doors, windows, amenities, and had a very good time. When we left, sure it needed paint inside, a lawn and beer-fumigating, but someone ended up with the best outfitted house on the street.
IMO, Darrin's looking at the right issues. It will be about squeezing what they have proposed into the lot, or about adding units. I am guessing they financially favor townhomes at this point.
They moved a 5 space parking lot into it as a courtesy for a neighbor, but I feel that should have been disclosed in the letter considering it is taking away some usable space of the open space we were promised.
As well it is parking for the town homes, not for open space users
LittleRascal, that policy of dumping out the back was widespread. Every little company in NJ did it. That is why there are water problems in some rural areas. I believe Mansfield township has a similar situation that required some to have complex filtration systems. This comes from knowing someone in the 90s, went to his house and asked why such a commercial looking filtration system was in his house...
Courtesy for a neighbor? That should have been disclosed in the letter.
They keep chipping away on that open space don't they? By the time all is said and done there won't be any.
How bout just closing CVS and either open a Salvation Army or Halloween store there. That pharmacy is bad enough alone to close the store.
Their attorney provided car examples where a new notice was not needed and how a catch all notice was sufficient for all variances changes.
If someone wants to fight that down the line that is the risk they are willing to take
There was never a recreation spot proposed. Only 3 acres of open space maintained by the homeowner's association. If they decide to build a playground than they can
There also will be NO low income housing in the plans
Again I would suggest coming to the meeting to learn the facts
Blunt? Me? Never! SD :) That stuff is illegal, even though my "mj" stocks, are through the roof...LOL
I value your opinion. I probably heard something on TV, to that effect. Sounds like you know what you're talking about. I haven't kept up on the laws.
The point here is that if you have a concern, complaint or question what is going to be in your community pertaining to this project, then you need to come to this meeting. Complaining and brain storming on this forum doesn't get anything accomplished. I have found going to the meetings and voicing concerns to the boards actually gets things done. I might not get everything that I think makes sense for myself but this is a community and these meetings are the forum in which the people are heard and then plans are formulated for the good of all that have input. If you have a voice and have posted on this forum, then come out and get it on record. Hope to see you at the meeting.
I agree with all, the planning board meeting is the place to come and say what you have to say before it is too late. The plans are not approved yet, so speak Tuesday or forever hold your peace!
Chances are, if Tuesday does not have a good public turnout with questions or concerns, the plans will be approved for 66 townhomes, 42 apartments and ~15,600 sq ft of retail, 3 acres of open space and a retention pond on the bergen tool site.
The plans show just a walking trail and grass. The town did not want anything that limited use of the open space.
Jim, is that true? After the open space is built the homeowners association can build recreational additions potentially cutting down on open field space?
that was my understanding, that the open space will be maintained by the newly created Homeowners Association. And if they want to build a playground, tennis courts, dog park they can. It is their land. I will confirm tomorrow night.
Jim, But whatever they build has to be publicly accessible and usable?
It cannot be just for the homeowner association?
from the Land Dev Use Ordinance:
11. Special Requirements for the Planned Mixed Use Downtown Development Use.
c. Three (3) acres of open space shall be set aside to the rear of the site and graded for recreation and open space activities. No portion of the three (3) acres set aside for open space shall be used for stormwater management. Ownership and maintenance of this open space and any recreational facilities installed within the open space shall remain with the tract owner until such time as the homeowners association for the for sale townhouse units has been established, at which time, the homeowners association shall assume responsibility for the ownership and maintenance. The open space shall be graded to accommodate the recreational facilities that are part of the approved Comprehensive Plan for the entire District. Public access to the open space for passive or active recreation shall be permitted.
m. A homeowners association shall be established for the purpose of owning and assuming maintenance responsibilities for the common open space and common property designed within the development. The homeowners association shall be established prior to the issuance of any certificate of occupancy for a townhouse residential unit in the development
So the HOA will pay for and maintain playground, tennis cts, etc but it'll have to be open to the public?
that's how I read it... again that is if they decide to build any of that on the open space. As of right now it is just open grass area with walking path around it
"The open space shall be graded to accommodate the recreational facilities that are part of the approved Comprehensive Plan for the entire District"
I take that as it needs to be in the plans for approval, not as the homeowners assosiation can add whatever they want later, either way, good item to clarify on Jim!
between the homes on east prospect and the new townhomes
You may want to come to the meeting tonight Pampurr
So phase 2 was approved at the last meeting.
After allowing multiple residents to ask and question about the shared parking with CVS, as well as other questions, and after public comment was over, in a real sleazy move and timing (in my opinion) the phase two attorney dropped a bomb shell that they were not able to get the shared parking agreement with CVS.
They had testified multiple times that they had it, and that it was deeded into CVS, but that did not seem to matter to the board. The CVS representative claimed that they have enough parking for themselves without the shared parking.
All the board members except Mr. Lambo voted yes......(thank you Mr. Lambo)
Once public comment was opened back up at the end of the meeting, I asked the town engineer to confirm the parking, because I have done the calculations and I come up with them being 35 spots short (before they added road parking to one of the streets which is only +/- 10 spots)
Waiting on the town engineers findings.
Since the developer dropped a bombshell at the tail end of the November meeting that they are unable to secure written agreement to shared parking with CVS, and the entire project and parking plans were based off of this, the board added to the resolutions that in order for phase two to be able to proceed they must produce a written agreement with cross easements for parking at CVS.
It was also confirmed that they DO NOT have enough parking by themselves, contrary to what Jade's Attorney stated on public record at the November meeting.
Big thank you to Jim L for remembering my question from the November meeting, as public comment was not opened back up on the resolutions of this project, despite the no shared parking technically being new testimony.
Thank you Darrin for keeping us all informed, and to Darrin and Jim L for keeping them honest! Well not honest really.. for keeping them in compliance with agreements.
Wow, you mean Jade's Attorney didn't tell the truth. Gee, I'm shocked to hear that, is anybody really surprised.
Driving past the CVS the other day and looking at the dirt piles in the field in the back made me wonder if there have been any developments in the project or if it's still stalled out with the parking issues.
Out of sheer curiosity, what's disgusting? That the whole project is stalled because of parking issues or that the developers tried to push through without ample parking to begin with?
It does look shabby! All they were concerned about was getting that CVS built as soon as possible.
Bottom line.... it's going to be very high density housing that will create an absolute traffic nightmare. People will begin to avoid Rte 46 and downtown Hackettstown.
Best of luck not getting your cars dented as the fire dept aerial attempts to navigate its way through.
Doesn't seem to be anything public about the sale Darrin.
There's no open listing for it either, although there's some interesting stuff in there like a 12 acre 145 or so unit monstrosity on the Musky behind/right of Applebees. Called Lion'a Gate.
There have been no changes to the site plan that was approved in Nov 2016. You’d have to call and ask the developer if and when he plans to actually build
Yeah....pretty much exactly what public voiced as concerns at the 2016 meetings ended up happening.....
When will the retention pond go in? They have been putting the surrounding properties at risk for 2+ years now
how do we know if and when phase two would be built?
Both questions were asked on public record at the meetings.....Lesson learned to the planning board.....they have actually brought it up at multiple other meetings and put time constraints on other developers so that this does not happen again.
Jim...quick question....when does their approved plans need to be extended again, if you can even extend again as I believe they have already gotten one extension with no face to show for it?
Maybe at the next extension it's time for the PB to put some constraints in....finish cleaning up the site and plant grass? Open space we were promised? etc....
Jim L. People still asking about this project. You keep giving the same answer!!!!!
You are the one with all the answers.
Ha how did I know if I came on here and responded to happiest girl’s question that my favorite troll Bernie would jump on me. She even sends me private emails. And as I replied to your email Bernie I’m not sure why you feel I have all the answers? I keep giving the same answer because the answer has not changed. The Planning Board approved the Phase 2 site plan in November 2016 ( with 1 no vote from me). Since then it’s up to the developer to decide when he’s actually going to start building. We have no power to make him
And as I replied in my email to you the Bilby Rd project was approved years ago and still has not begun construction. The planning Board added time frames into the WaWa site plans which states when each phase of the project needs to be completed by or face fines to prevent this from happening there
Darrin their approval is for 2 years. So this November they would have to come in and ask for an extension. At That time the planning board will make sure certain things get done Before granting an extension
If you remember the Oct 2016 meeting the owner of the site actually scolded us for not voting on the site plans that night and pushing it back a month telling us how patient he has been while the PB delayed the process. Which our Chairman quickly and correctly pointed out that it was them that was taking forever
So when we approved it at the next meeting we figured they were all ready to go since they wanted the site plan approved the month before. Fast forward 1.5 years and nothing
my apologies it was actually at the July 2016 meeting where the owner scolded us. And then amazingly did not show up to the August, Sept and Oct meeting.
"Michael Gottlieb, Jade Hackettstown, requested action at this meeting. Gottlieb stated they have waited for a long time for the board to take action. The Chairman replied the Town has waited a long time for the applicant to return to the board. "
So they wanted us to take action at the July 2016 meeting, then cancelled the next 3 meetings. Finally showed back up at the Nov meeting and we approved it. So again you'd have to ask them why the heck they have not started construction because they were so eager in July 2016 to get their site plan approved.
LOL! 100% Jim...I remember that meeting...they gave the PB crap about needing more time (a month) to think about it....meanwhile the PB and public waited on them for HOW long...years?!?!
Good...renewal is coming up, and it is good to hear the PB is already considering implementing some new rules before granting an extension.
Personally I would like to see the whole site converted to turf for now...(actually that's how I believe the original developers agreement was written)...yet somehow they were able to get approval to just covert next to CVS to turf and leave the back looking like a quarry....not sure how or why that was allowed....I asked once at a meeting but got the political answer.
If it could be converted to turf and opened to the public for the time being that would be great...but I don't see that happening.
They are still actually not done with the environmental cleanup on site, I wonder if the environmental cleanup portion has it's own deadlines.
My guess....we see work on site a few weeks before they come to the meeting ;-)
Now that sounds like a meeting moment.....
I noted above I called Lion's Gate "a 145-unit monstrosity." Not being more two-faced than usual JL, I still think it looks like a pretty good plan with a kinda-ugly swiss mountain chalet of a 145-unit building. Not my style, but PB did good IMO.
On this one, yeah, develop or turf, hopefully with run-off controls. But don't leave the open scar this neighborhood has had to live with for over a year now.
"swiss mountain chalet"
Ha the Lion Gate website has a really old drawing still on there. It looks a lot better now than then original design back in 2006.
The only concern was getting that CVS in ASAP!
"Personally I would like to see the whole site converted to turf for now...(actually that's how I believe the original developers agreement was written)...yet somehow they were able to get approval to just covert next to CVS to turf and leave the back looking like a quarry....not sure how or why that was allowed....I asked once at a meeting but got the political answer."
Darrin I wasn't on the PB at the time of Phase 1 but attended the meetings with you. If you read the 10/22/2013 minutes you will see Shawn Burke bought up the retention ponds and turf be done during phase1. If you remember at that time the project was really going to have 3 Phases. The PB engineer and attorney both correctly brought up that CVS was the applicant in front of the board and they could not make CVS be responsible for the Phase 2 retention pond and turfing as it was not their land.
At that time the PB didn't even have a phase 2 application submitted so they couldn't even say what the retention ponds would look like. IMO The project should never have been split up and all planning should have been done at once for the whole site. Which would have saved the neighbors from dealing with this mess for as long has they have.
a funny side note at the end of that meeting Jade presented a conceptual plan for Phase 2...... 10/22/2013. It took them until 3/22/2016 to come to PB with a completed application..... but yea we were the ones that were delaying the process. LOL
How did CVS meet their stormwater management obligation?
In the case of phased development, each individual phase must stand on its own; it can't defer stormwater management to a future phase.
They did a lot. They redid all of E Stiger and the storm drains on that street. They put 2 detention tanks under their parking lot and if you look at the parking lot you can see a few spots where crap I’m blanking in the term water can pass through the asphalt parking lot. The used that
They Controlled all the water coming onto their site via Stiger and down 46. The retention ponds in the back (phase2) were for the water that entered the Bergen tool site from the residential roads to the east.
the fact that E Stiger and CVS lot has not flooded is pretty good evidence as to how much stormwater management they did as that area would flood all the time
Porous asphalt... and you just answered the question I was about to ask about how that intersection has improved or worsened re: flooding.
That’s great that Stiger and CVS don’t flood. Seems ironic that since they built the CVS and did all the “storm water management”, Bergen st floods every time it rains. A big puddle covers the entire width of the road at about the center point of the street, and sits with stagnant water for days after a good rain. It’s eroding the asphalt severely. The town is aware of it as they have to come patch the massive pot holes from the water run off every couple months. Seems that as since as it can’t be seen from the cvs, that no one seems to care. Such a shame.
Townleasi...that's because CVS was built up on a hill...even if the surrounding areas flood...they will never. Also, no provisions for drainage was added to Bergen street. And the pipe that was draining Bergen street to East Stiger was removed and not replaced when they took down the buildings (That's your biggest problem)
As far as East Stiger...way better, no flooding as of yet, but we still have not had a 10 year flood...we have had some serious rains, but nothing like we had a few years back.
So is a Bergen Street improvement part of the part 1,2,or 3 plans.
I agree, no killer rains, however, some pretty good ones which is a good sign.
Bergen St the way it is now is going away in Phase 2. It will wrap around behind CVS and link up with E Stiger. So that part that floods will be gone. Also Bergen has flooded long before CVS was built. CVS contains all the rain water on their property and the rain that used to come down 46 and Stiger onto their property. While we have not had a 10yr storm we have had tons of hard rain storms without any issue at an intersection that would flood at the drop of a hat. Huge improvement
Jim...Bergen street would only flood when the drain that ran from the side of the building to east stiger clogged...that drain was removed with the addition of CVS (it would have ran directly under their building)
I agree, Huge improvement...but my point is, in my opinion, without the retention pond...we are ducks waiting for a 10y flood....the two improvements were suppose to go hand in hand, and phase 2 was suppose to be right behind CVS...hope everyone learned their lesson on that one.
"They did a good job fixing that particular problem"
Not to ring my own bell...but those plans were ready to be approved WITHOUT fixing the problem...far from it...had a particular neighbor not gotten involved and taken 100s of photos and videos to the town professionals we would have been much worse off.
Everyone seems to forget about that....and says trust the professionals...look what they did over there.....as I said in one of the meetings...computer knowledge and calculations only get you so far....I live there...have seen it....and here is the pictures to PROVE it....2 years later...a MULTITUDE of storm water management changes....and the plans were finally approved.
I am guessing this is a developer versus builder/owner issue, right?
Nonetheless, these things must be in the plan, including timing, to be able to get them done. Sounds like bad plan, bad results on this one, if you think the timing is wrong.
When plans have phases, and the phases are not guaranteed, with schedule, in the plan contract, the planners can anticipate delay for all sorts of reasons. Although on this one, it seems that many builders are beginning to start up again after our nasty little depression or huge freaking recession....you be the judge.
But lesson learned to HL planners and watchers ---- if it ain't in the plan......
SD...two different owners, with a sub division...CVS split off and owns their part of the property, retention was planned on the original property, as part of phase 2 development, which is still owned by the owner who sold the lot to CVS (as far as I know)
Looks like the developer hasn't paid his taxes in a while and is in the Town tax sale to the tune of 89k. Shocker, right?
So if we all chip in a grand..we can stop it (lol)
Update? Does anyone have access to the site plans for phase 2 of the project? I would like to see the proposed layout of the buildings, parking lots, and proposed open space.
I would think they still have them in the construction office Buck3, although I am unsure if they are expired by now, either way they should be on file for you to see.
When is the construction expected to start?
Looks like penwell was correct
They have not paid any of the 2018 or 2019 taxes
Jade currently owes our town $114,702.71
I smell a goin outta business sale. Bankruptcy.
New company welcomed to develop in town: Jude LLC.
Imagine if you owed the town $115K.....evicted...
All they do every other year is push dirt around the property looks like hell but we should really focus on filling the old compac building first along with the other few empty spaces on Waterloo
amazing that we not that it’s our problem can’t get anyone in this basf building or in the compac building
Figure I would pass this along
MAY 23, 2019
-Motion to approve an assessment feasibility PILOT study for the Bergen Tool Phase II project.
Unfortunately I had a death in the family and will not be able to attend, but if anyone can fill in the details of the meeting here or contact me, I would appreciate it. Thanks in advance
Darrin- Is that part of the agenda for Thursday's council meeting? I still see the April 25th agenda posted on the town website. I recall you posting one time you get the agenda emailed to you is that accurate?
Yes Greg, May 23 Council Agenda. Here it is in its' entirety:
MAY 23, 2019
Mayors opening statement as required by the Open Public Meetings Act.
Discussion by citizens.
-Motion to approve the minutes of the May 9, 2019 regular session.
-Motion to approve the minutes of the May 9, 2019 executive session.
-Public hearing and final adoption, Ordinance 2019-06.
-Motion to approve check register #2019-09.
-Motion to approve an assessment feasibility PILOT study for the Bergen Tool Phase II project.
-Motion to approve Taxi Cab Owners licenses.
-Motion to approve Taxi Cab Drivers licenses.
-Motion to approve summer intern employment.
Any other matters that may be brought by the Mayor and Council for action.
Possible executive session.
Great, thanks Darrin.
I need to be on that email list. The town website has been a bit slow to post the last several months. I usually read the minutes from the various meetings and such but they have not been updated since last December. Often the agenda for meetings get posted just the day of or the day prior to the meeting. I understand there is a plan to have the website reworked or managed differently. I learned that while attending a meeting a few months back. I don't know of any new news or developments as I can't catch up and review the council minutes since then. LOL! Catch 22 if one can't make all of the meetings in person. It's a great help and courtesy to have a town website with current information- hopefully soon it will get up to speed.
Yeah, Town Planning is up to date for 2018 postings I think.....
Be nice to be able to view plans, meetings, and such online. Maybe they could use their smart phone to take pictures of documents and post them.....
Or maybe translucency is their goal......
This has been asked before SD and the town did not seem interested in making the information any more available then the have to by law.
Doesn't PILOT apply to commercial or industrial properties?... seems kinda strange for residential
3 weeks ago
Here is a Cliff Notes version of PILOT in NJ.
This is also a very good read on the subject:
I was going to say considering the taxes have not been paid for a year and a half I wonder if the town is considering taking ownership, but I just checked again and it looks like someone paid up for last year
You know the drill Darrin, don't invest any more into the asset until you have a profitable reason to invest more. So, no build, no pay taxes. Pay taxes, must have something to build. If the "plan" has changed measurably, you can bet the investor has a pretty good idea already, somehow, that the new plan is worth paying the back taxes.
But it will all be revealed soon.
The thing I don’t understand is if the town is looking into a PILOT study, wouldn’t that mean the town is paying for said study? I doubt the town would be paying for a study unless they had some sort of vested interest in the property?
Wow I go away for a little bit and come back to so much misinformation on this thread.
1) bug3 PILOT is not just for commercial property. It is used for residential too
2) the applicant pays for the study Darrien not the town. The town just has to vote if they want to do the study the study or not.
Chillax, he said IF the town..... not gonna get progressive votes with that attitude ;-).
PILOT pays no school taxes..as per the link
3 weeks ago
Not gonna get any votes if the paperwork isn’t filled out. First the paperwork, then the campaign. Rinse and repeat until reached desired results.
3 weeks ago
The council voted not to move forward with an assessment feasibility PILOT study for the Bergen Tool Phase II project.. 3-2 nay I believe it was.
However- a bit later in the meeting a council member asked if they could vote again regarding the study. The attorney advised a redo and another motion to approve would need to happen at a future council meeting.
I wish I was. I was a bit surprised to say the least however I am not familiar with the proper, legal protocols in this instance. The facts are a motion was voted on by all present council members. It did not pass. Then a few minuets later a voting member asked for a re-vote. It was explained by the attorney that it could not happen at that time. Now the cynic in me could see how it could pass next vote as if a member who voted no this time changes to a yes and the member who was not present at this meeting votes yes the next vote then voila a motion is passed. Or perhaps the re-vote could produce additional no votes really cementing the motion's demise.
I do see where one might bring an item up multiple times for a vote. But not at the same meeting, and not as a simple do-over.....
Greg, can you fill me in on what this was about. What were the looking to do a PILOT study for? I know it's a feasibility study but what were they trying to see the feasible of?
I'm assuming it would have been an initial study to determine if it is feasible for the town to move closer to applying PILOT status for that phase of the project. It's an important decision that will have a long term financial impact on both the town as well as the developer. Assessing the pros and cons for each party should be studied in detail in order to make an informed decision. Having the developer pay for the study is a bonus for the town, naturally. I will say the Mayor wisely added a few conditions such as if property tax payments were to fall in arrears the study would cease. In addition if the maintenance of the property was not kept in an acceptable state, the study would cease.
I personally feel a study should take place as it is simply an information gathering exercise. Once completed, council can review all of the facts and financial forecasts to determine if PILOT status is appropriate for that project. I'm not sure of how broad and what criteria is applied when conducting this type of study but if it closely examines the financial health of the developer, that could help quite a bit in the decision making.
I would guess that if Darrin does not understand the process that the process is not as transparent as it might be...….just saying.
Did they pay the back taxes yet? How can a study go on if they owe, they owe, off to develop they go......
I should add- there was a bill introduced last year requiring this type of study. As far as I see it is still in committee.
The bill is NJ S1701
Yes I understand the taxes are current.
PILOT means no school taxes...and that can't be a good thing for an apartment complex
2 weeks ago
A PILOT feasibility study just means the developer pays an accountant to do the numbers of what the PILOT payments would be to the town vs what the property taxes would be. Once the town see what the numbers are they can decide if it worth entering into a PiLOT agreement or not
And Bug3 a town can still take a portion of their PILOT payment and give it to the BOE if they choice to.
If the taxes are paid, I can tell you the report will be a success.
Just a guess of course.
A) as Greg mentioned they voted down the study
B) not necessarily, we did a study for WaWa and the difference in payment didn’t warrant the benefit to move forward with the PILOT.
This is one thing where it all comes down the numbers. If the numbers make sense then it’s a good thing. If the numbers don’t add up then it’s not worth it. Can’t argue the numbers they are what they are
From the PILOT link
Under the Local Redevelopment and Housing Law, the PILOT program calls for 95 percent of the payments to go the town, and 5 percent to the county. The school district gets nothing. This is in contrast to a typical tax bill where often 50 percent or more of the total goes to the school district.
2 weeks ago
Again bug the town can decide on their own if they want to give a portion of the PILOT payment to the BOE. They are not required to but can make the choice if they want to
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