Bergen Tool Project Phase 2: Townhomes and Apartments

As promised, new thread about phase 2 of the project which is currently to house 66 townhomes, 42 apartments and ~15,600 sq ft of retail, 3 acres of open space and a retention pond.

PB Meeting for August canceled:

PLEASE TAKE NOTICE THAT the Chairman of the Hackettstown Planning Board, after consulting with the Board Attorney and the Town Engineer, has cancelled the regular meeting scheduled for Tuesday, August 23, 2016 at 7:30 PM.

Case #16-01, Jade Hackettstown Associates, LLC
Block 21, Lot 18

At the request of the applicant, the above application is being requested to be carried to the next regular meeting of the Hackettstown Planning Board scheduled for Tuesday, September 27, 2016 without further notice.

The next regular meeting is scheduled to be held Tuesday, September 27 2016 at the Municipal Building, 215 Stiger Street, Hackettstown, New Jersey, and will be held at 7:30 PM.

Darrin Darrin
Aug '16

well what did the engineer say at your secret meeting?

Brad2
Aug '16

The regularly scheduled meeting of the Hackettstown Planning Board will be held
Tuesday, September 27, 2016 at 7:30 PM in the Municipal Building, 215 Stiger street, Hackettstown, New Jersey.

AGENDA

1. Sunshine Act
2. Roll Call
3. Pledge of Allegiance
4. Approval of minutes – July 26, 2016
5. Resolutions – None
6. Case #16-01, Jade Hackettstown Associates, LLC
Block 21, Lot 18
7. Public Hearing by the Town of Hackettstown Regarding Designation of a Non-
Condemnation Area in Need of Redevelopment
Block 125, Lot 9.01
8. Old Business
9. New Business
10. Adjournment

Darrin Darrin
Sep '16

Here we go again with Darren's platform

Smitt
Sep '16

I'm sure many appreciate Darren's information or viewpoint. Those opposed to his views seem to take advantage of the opportunity to debate him.

maja2 maja2
Sep '16

Darrin, thanks for the update and helping to keep the community informed. For those who have concerns about this project, this will be a meeting you want to be at to voice your concerns.

Chris Morpeth Chris Morpeth
Sep '16

Chris, Appreciate Darrin giving everyone the heads up... Steve and I have concerns but it seems a certain somebody likes to make public how many meetings we did not attend..

I suggest he quit browbeating us about it. ..And BTW there were many meetings in the beginning of this project that we attended also with you and Keith and Darrin.WE also collected data .He was no where to be found! Just sayin.

pampurr pampurr
Sep '16

Sounds like alot more people could move into Hackettstown if this goes through. Can our schools handle the influx?

Mansfield mama Mansfield mama
Sep '16

There will be no impact.....hahahahahahaha

CraftBeerBob CraftBeerBob
Sep '16

The school superintendent has been discussing this with the community and its stakeholders for over 2 years.

The school district has completed demographic studies for both this project as well as Bilby Rd. Additionally, this was discussed through strategic planning & community open meetings when discussing of moving the school boundary lines and the subsequent impact to the district. The school administration has been working with the board of education to prepare for the impending impact during the budget process.

All of this information including the detailed demographic study and facility presentation are readily available to review on line at the district website, please call or e mail if you have any concerns.

Gus Bordi Gus Bordi
Sep '16

How many units are planned for Bilby Rd development? Anyone know?

Frank Frank
Sep '16

Thank you Mr. Bordi.

pampurr pampurr
Sep '16

I am very interested in knowing how CVS feels about the apparent "shared parking" that will allow town home residents, apartment residents, and retail shoppers to utilize CVS's parking lot.

Considering Phase 2 was so close to being approved last time, yet they missed last month's meeting, makes me wonder what this next planning board meeting will bring. We definitely need residents to show up! Tell your neighbors! Get people there!

Darrin Darrin
Sep '16

FYI

6. Case #16-01, Jade Hackettstown Associates, LLC
Block 21, Lot 18
(CARRIED TO OCTOBER 25, 2016)

Darrin Darrin
Sep '16

I'm excited but cautious. I'm sure it will be great. The type of town homes approved will bring many good families to the town. I'm only concerned that there could be an absence of non-CVS retailers and we'd have a big empty mall in just north of "downtown".

1988LJ 1988LJ
Sep '16

1988LJ

"type" and "good" mean what exactly? Ones that don't shop at Dollar General or Fruti-Mex? I guess by "non-CVS retailers" you mean CVS will be the only business in the "mall" area and the other properties will be vacant? That part didn't make much sense to me since all other retailers besides CVS would be "non-CVS", but that's an odd way to state it, unless we should be reading between the lines.

Phil D. Phil D.
Sep '16

Thank you Phil. This guy is relentless. A bigot at 28 years old this day and age? Bigotry is taught, no one is born a bigot. Really makes me wonder about his parents..

My daughter will be 26 and her mindset is the opposite of 1988LJ. Apparently she was raised quite differently than he was.

positive positive
Sep '16

No, I don't mean like that. I'm not insulting other stores. I'm saying that if other retailers don't move into the center, then it would be empty which would be sad. Don't read between the lines for God's sakes. I was just implying that if no stores other than CVS move in, then it would be empty. And the comment about the town homes was just me expressing my pleasure that these will not be 8-story council tower blocks like you might find out east. Chill out, everyone.

1988LJ 1988LJ
Sep '16

"Really makes me wonder about his parents.."

Do you have kids positive (sorry, I can't recall if you've ever mentioned it)? If you do then you also know that raising your kids isn't just about what *you* teach them, but also about what you have to un-teach them, specifically from the school environment. IMO that was the hardest thing about raising my kids when they were small - the things they brought home were actually shocking at times. So while I agree that bigotry is a learned behavior, I don't agree that it's strictly a parental thing. There are many, many more areas of society that can shape bigotry more than just the home...

(Tangent over)

justintime justintime
Sep '16

"good" "type" Them's trigger warning words LOL!

Denis Denis
Sep '16

Man people are so quick to try to label people!

I think what he was saying is he is afraid the new retail space that is to be built may not get tenants.

Darrin Darrin
Sep '16

Bravo positive. You are 100% right.
Couldn't have said it better.

Justintime - positive mentioned right in her post, that you commented on, that she has a 25 year old daughter-

Botheredbyuu2 Botheredbyuu2
Sep '16

Thank you Darrin, that's exactly what I was trying to say.

1988LJ 1988LJ
Sep '16

1888LJ - That clearly wasn't all you said - "my pleasure that these will not be 8-story council tower blocks like you might find out east." I wonder how many people are familiar with that term since it doesn't exist in this country. Or how many realize just how much you confirmed what you said initially.


GC- I don't understand. Is that an offensive term? Do you want huge council flats being constructed in Hackettstown?

1988LJ 1988LJ
Sep '16

Maybe everyone should go to the next meeting and promote low income housing. That would eliminate any current, unsafe overcrowding in rentals. As long as it is subsidized by the federal government, I think it's a good alternative use of the space. Maybe even a higher property tax property for the town then.

maja2 maja2
Sep '16

1988LJ - I know you don't understand. You're in America. You've used a half dozen British terms that people here are unlikely to know, and most don't apply. You're lucky if a few people know the term "flat" for an apartment let alone "Council Estate" or "Tower Block". Those are unknown terms, and things aren't done that way in America.


So....why are you mad at 1988LJ for using "British terms that people here are unlikely to know, and most don't apply" I am confused....what are you implying GC?

Darrin Darrin
Sep '16

Never said anything about being mad Darrin. I'm trying to let 1888LJ know no one understands what they're saying.


Sorry, I wasn't trying to be confusing. It's just my 4 years of undergrad in London coming through, I figured those were the best words to use since I didn't want to say "projects" because that has a bit of a racial connotation. Not trying to cause any confusion. Those were just the best words I could think of.
But you get my point. I don't want government or low-income housing, not necessarily because of the people who live in those situations but because of the crime and lower living standards they bring. Not so much the racial or economic aspect.

1988LJ 1988LJ
Sep '16

Almost every thread 1988LJ has commented on contains some type of bigotry and snobbery. Many of his posts are so bigoted it's beyond ridiculousness.

I apologize to those who don't get it, but when it's something I feel strongly about..sitting on my hands just won't do...

positive positive
Sep '16

JIT, I agree, however from my experience bigotry is mostly derived from upbringing. Of course the outside environment is another factor, but I still think the majority of the underlying problem comes from within the family.

Thank you BBU..I appreciate it!

positive positive
Sep '16

Positive, I am never bigoted of snobby. I'm sorry if you enjoy posting hate towards people online that you don't even know, I was raised to treat people on the Internet and in real life with respect and kindness especially when you don't know them. I'm sure your life is unhappy but don't try and make other people unhappy as well.

1988LJ 1988LJ
Sep '16

1988LJ, just do a forum search of all your posts and think about how others would perceive them....

positive positive
Sep '16

Maja2. I really hope that is sarcasm.

CraftBeerBob CraftBeerBob
Sep '16

LOL, subsidized by the federal government means you and me -- the taxpayers.

No silver bullet here, but a lot of the solutions are not politically correct...


Maybe low income housing is a good thing; I don't know our stats there, I think we need more LIH units, but state-wide comparison wise, our housing prices are already pretty low. Cheaper here than most places in NJ.

Who's to say folks won't overcrowd low income housing, just sayin.

Pretty sure NIMBY will apply here to the neighborhood.

Pretty sure it will end up looking like, if not more condensed, the townhome neighborhood behind Dunkin Donuts. Surrounded by high density and commercial, it seems pretty tight. Low income, low middle, starter, whatever --- they may look pretty nice, clean, etc., but too crowded is not good IMO.

And that's my point. I understand the need for LIH, but to cram them into a small area with more pavement than grass, compounded by narrow roads able only to support one-way traffic while skimming off a few acres in the back for open space and a retention pond seems a bit weird. If the open space is designed as a buffer or wall, that will compound the overcrowding issue. Hopefully it will be designed to make the space open for everyone as an extension to the town home community and not just wall off the town homes cramming too many people for the space. Or blend the townhomes around the open space in a horseshoe leaving the back end open for a more harmonious outcome for Darrin's home and the other contiguous neighbors.

strangerdanger strangerdanger
Sep '16

Maybe somebody can explain to me what exactly "low income housing" means in this situation... Are we talking about houses that are "cheap", driven by market demands... Or is this some other type of government driven/sanctioned/controlled situation?

brendan brendan
Sep '16

I finally agree with Strangerdanger! It's going to be a good day! ;)

Hot corner Hot corner
Sep '16

There's probably only going to be a few low income housing units available. Usually, when a developer wants to build condo or townhomes, they have to legally set aside several units available for low income housing. Not sure if the rules apply, in this situation.

sparksjbc1964 sparksjbc1964
Sep '16

In 2013 this developer showed interest in buying out of the LIH aspect, but who knows if this is still the case, they have changed the plans and their minds so many times since then.

http://www.lehighvalleylive.com/warren-county/express-times/index.ssf/2013/01/hackettstown_town_council_clea.html

"Rice said he would pay $250,000 for 10 apartments toward the town's Council on Affordable Housing requirement, which mandates municipalities provide affordable housing for low- and moderate-income residents."

Mind you, the plans they discussed at that time are not the same as we are currently seeing.

Darrin Darrin
Sep '16

sparks - Check the previous Bergen thread. All of that was discussed ad nauseum. Any talk of COAH is FUD, which answer's brendan's question that there is no meaning in this situation. That's because the developer also has the option to pay into a fund for future development. That was the choice announced long ago so there is no COAH at the Bergen site. It's also been settled long ago that the Princess Towers site on Bilby would be where COAH housing would be included. However, the whole rules involved keep changing over time so what exactly that involves and how many units may well change.

1888LJ - I apologize then, I thought I was helping a Brit who didn't know they wouldn't be understood. Since you're an American who happens to know the terms, you chose those so people wouldn't understand the class division they imply.


Yeah Darrin I would say that's a blue sky plan TBD at some point.

strangerdanger strangerdanger
Sep '16

GC, just because the developer has showed interest in buying out of COAH does not necessarily mean it could not happen...right?

Correct me if I am wrong, but in what formal, permanent way has the developer stated there will not be COAH?

Everything else has changed at one point or another, and we still do not have approved plans...........

Darrin Darrin
Sep '16

Who pays the school and property taxes for renters? Is it the same as homeowners?

St 101 St 101
Sep '16

Just a reminder there is a meeting tonight at 7:30pm but Jade phase two was carried to the October meeting. Maybe they can explain to us why they were so close to being approved last time, and now they keep missing meetings?

Darrin Darrin
Sep '16

What day is the next meeting with Jade in attendance Darrin?

pampurr pampurr
Sep '16

I think it will be the October meeting, but I would think tonight they will discuss, or at least fill us in on why Jade has not been back since a few meetings ago.

Darrin Darrin
Sep '16

Jade did not show and they explained that the meeting would be carried to October.

Big thank you to Jim Lambo for requesting that being it has been so long since their last meeting (90 days) that Jade should have to re-notice. I 100% agree with that and he actually got the board on board (no pun intended) and now the developer (Jade) will have to re-notice prior to the next meeting they intend to be at.

This is good because there is a great deal of people who live around this property who now will know the meeting is still ongoing. Various members of the public have brought the issue up to the board on more then one account. At least someone was listening!

Again, thank you, we appreciate things like that!

Darrin Darrin
Sep '16

Re: Bergen Tool Project Phase 2: Townhomes and Apartments

It seems the meeting has been pushed off yet again..........

6. Case #16-01, Jade Hackettstown Associates, LLC
Block 21, Lot 18
(carried to November 22, 2016)

I do not know whats going on here....but I did get this letter in the mail today from Whitman about the site and contaminates found getting into the ground water

Darrin2
Oct '16

Re: Bergen Tool Project Phase 2: Townhomes and Apartments

page 2

Darrin2
Oct '16

Re: Bergen Tool Project Phase 2: Townhomes and Apartments

Page 3

Darrin2
Oct '16

If anyone wants the scanned originals pm me with your email and I will send them to you so they are easier to read.

Darrin Darrin
Oct '16

Those contaminant levels don't look good. That should delay any more building for a while.

maja2 maja2
Oct '16

I find it strange that they told us the site was good to go at how many meetings now, and then this.......There is a bunch of contaminates in there I do not believe they ever disclosed at the meetings.

But then again at least they are honest and caught it and will be correcting it.....lets hope the contaminated water did not travel past main street like they think, that could be a entirely different mess if it did.

I wonder if any of this effects the CVS site? They "said" that was clean too

Darrin Darrin
Oct '16

Hmmmmm.......thanks for making us aware of this ..this is important. What did they think? Idiots.

pampurr pampurr
Oct '16

The contamination at Bergen Tool does not surprise me at all. I worked there one Summer after College and part of my job was to empty 55 gallon barrels of steel sludge waste directly onto the ground. Several mounds of this sludge existed in the back of the Bergen Tool property. This sludge had to penetrate deep into the ground after years of rainfall and snow. Not good

LittleRascal LittleRascal
Oct '16

Thanks for letting me and my neighbors know this I live in back of the Bergen Tool property Fourth Street and East Stiger Street....this is very very bad news...

pampurr pampurr
Oct '16

PUBLIC HEARING ON TUESDAY, NOVEMBER 22, 2016 AT 7:30PM AT THE MUNICIPAL BUILDING 215 STIGER STREET, HACKETTSTOWN, NJ

NOTICE: JADE Hackettstown Associates LLC has applied to the planning board of the Town of Hackettstown for preliminary and final major subdivision approval. Applicant seeks the approvals to among other things, construct 108 multi-family residential dwelling units consisting of 66 townhomes and 42 apartments. Commercial space with related parking and a new municipal roadway to connect Bergen and Stiger Streets.

pampurr pampurr
Nov '16

pampurr,

Is that what the certified mailing said?

The post office lost mine, so I have been unable to see it

Darrin Darrin
Nov '16

Yes Darrin also says storm water management system and recreation trail to be constructed as well.

This registered letter came from Lavery's Law-firm. He was the previous Mayor correct?

pampurr pampurr
Nov '16

It seems like it is the same letter that they sent out last time?

Selvaggi is representing Jade....Lavery, who was the formere mayor, is in the firm that Selvaggi is part of

http://lsaclaw.com/lawyers/

Darrin Darrin
Nov '16

How convenient...lol

pampurr pampurr
Nov '16

I didn't see certified letter and I live right across the street from CVS Pharmacy?

cloudyday cloudyday
Nov '16

cloudyday, come to the meeting Tuesday and tell the attorney prior to the meeting. If they did not properly notify, they have to re-notify and the meeting may have to be pushed back

The post office lost mine. I received a notice in my mailbox, when I went to pick it up, they could not find it

Darrin Darrin
Nov '16

It is the same law firm that has represented Jade from the beginning of this project so I'm not sure why it would be a surprise to anyone who has attending past planning board meeting.

And yes it is the same letter that went out last time, they just needed to re-notice so the same letter is fine, just update the date of the meeting.

Jim L Jim L
Nov '16

Thanks for the info, GC. Just saw it now, because I haven't been keeping up with this particular forum. The Trump one, kept me very busy, LOL
Maja...just might be on to something, here, sarcastic or not. As far as I know, you cannot have any felony record, to qualify for anything. That would mean that the low income housing clientele, would be mostly seniors, who have no supplement to social security, or a younger couple, who both work at low paying jobs. Point is, they have worked all their lives or are working now. Criminals can't get jobs, and there still has to be income verifications. Credit check probably applies. Must be approved by the board. I guess the apartments would be rented and the townhomes sold at the "affordable housing" rate, which is just about the same as market value. Maybe low income housing would be good, but you guys are more up to date, with information, and I value your opinions.

sparksjbc1964 sparksjbc1964
Nov '16

Jim,

Wasn't there a detail on the letter that was a little off?

I remember the town attorney discussing it with the board that the notice should be adjusted, but Savaggi saying their letter was a catch all.

I think it was something about the size of the patios? and the to street distance?

Also, since last we saw, they moved a parking lot into the open space, the open space is no longer actually 3 acres is it?

Darrin Darrin
Nov '16

What happened to the recreation spot?

pampurr pampurr
Nov '16

Wow sparksjbc1964, that was some logic trail....sarcastic or not, time to put down the blunt :>)

Sure Felons can get low income housing unless on sex registry or housing project meth dealers. Even without this, I could take factually question the rest of your walk through the logic woods, but given the first step was into a mud puddle, I'll let you say ooops.

When I worked for a builder/developer in a different state, we used to put up middle-class single-family starter homes and rather nice townhomes, a little too nice for COAH. So rather than pay off the state, or build COAH housing amongst higher value homes, we would put up our standard unit and then rent it for X years at COAH levels offering the renter a buyout at the end of the contract (or we sold the house). I forget the time frame: 3, 5 years??

Funny thing is, apparently we applied so four young men ended up in a brand new home for COAH rent rates. Since we built it, we added some rooms, doors, windows, amenities, and had a very good time. When we left, sure it needed paint inside, a lawn and beer-fumigating, but someone ended up with the best outfitted house on the street.

IMO, Darrin's looking at the right issues. It will be about squeezing what they have proposed into the lot, or about adding units. I am guessing they financially favor townhomes at this point.

strangerdanger strangerdanger
Nov '16

They moved a 5 space parking lot into it as a courtesy for a neighbor, but I feel that should have been disclosed in the letter considering it is taking away some usable space of the open space we were promised.

As well it is parking for the town homes, not for open space users

Darrin Darrin
Nov '16

LittleRascal, that policy of dumping out the back was widespread. Every little company in NJ did it. That is why there are water problems in some rural areas. I believe Mansfield township has a similar situation that required some to have complex filtration systems. This comes from knowing someone in the 90s, went to his house and asked why such a commercial looking filtration system was in his house...


Courtesy for a neighbor? That should have been disclosed in the letter.

They keep chipping away on that open space don't they? By the time all is said and done there won't be any.

Pampurr Pampurr
Nov '16

How bout just closing CVS and either open a Salvation Army or Halloween store there. That pharmacy is bad enough alone to close the store.

Speill Speill
Nov '16

Their attorney provided car examples where a new notice was not needed and how a catch all notice was sufficient for all variances changes.

If someone wants to fight that down the line that is the risk they are willing to take

There was never a recreation spot proposed. Only 3 acres of open space maintained by the homeowner's association. If they decide to build a playground than they can

There also will be NO low income housing in the plans

Again I would suggest coming to the meeting to learn the facts

Jim L. Jim L.
Nov '16

Lol. Case examples. Not "car"

Jim L. Jim L.
Nov '16

Blunt? Me? Never! SD :) That stuff is illegal, even though my "mj" stocks, are through the roof...LOL
I value your opinion. I probably heard something on TV, to that effect. Sounds like you know what you're talking about. I haven't kept up on the laws.

sparksjbc1964 sparksjbc1964
Nov '16

The point here is that if you have a concern, complaint or question what is going to be in your community pertaining to this project, then you need to come to this meeting. Complaining and brain storming on this forum doesn't get anything accomplished. I have found going to the meetings and voicing concerns to the boards actually gets things done. I might not get everything that I think makes sense for myself but this is a community and these meetings are the forum in which the people are heard and then plans are formulated for the good of all that have input. If you have a voice and have posted on this forum, then come out and get it on record. Hope to see you at the meeting.

THE MORP THE MORP
Nov '16

I agree with all, the planning board meeting is the place to come and say what you have to say before it is too late. The plans are not approved yet, so speak Tuesday or forever hold your peace!

Chances are, if Tuesday does not have a good public turnout with questions or concerns, the plans will be approved for 66 townhomes, 42 apartments and ~15,600 sq ft of retail, 3 acres of open space and a retention pond on the bergen tool site.

Darrin Darrin
Nov '16

No Ballfield?

Pampurr Pampurr
Nov '16

The plans show just a walking trail and grass. The town did not want anything that limited use of the open space.

Jim, is that true? After the open space is built the homeowners association can build recreational additions potentially cutting down on open field space?

Darrin Darrin
Nov '16

that was my understanding, that the open space will be maintained by the newly created Homeowners Association. And if they want to build a playground, tennis courts, dog park they can. It is their land. I will confirm tomorrow night.

Jim L Jim L
Nov '16

Jim, But whatever they build has to be publicly accessible and usable?

It cannot be just for the homeowner association?

Darrin Darrin
Nov '16

correct

Jim L Jim L
Nov '16

from the Land Dev Use Ordinance:

http://www.hackettstown.net/land-development-code/
11. Special Requirements for the Planned Mixed Use Downtown Development Use.


c. Three (3) acres of open space shall be set aside to the rear of the site and graded for recreation and open space activities. No portion of the three (3) acres set aside for open space shall be used for stormwater management. Ownership and maintenance of this open space and any recreational facilities installed within the open space shall remain with the tract owner until such time as the homeowners association for the for sale townhouse units has been established, at which time, the homeowners association shall assume responsibility for the ownership and maintenance. The open space shall be graded to accommodate the recreational facilities that are part of the approved Comprehensive Plan for the entire District. Public access to the open space for passive or active recreation shall be permitted.


m. A homeowners association shall be established for the purpose of owning and assuming maintenance responsibilities for the common open space and common property designed within the development. The homeowners association shall be established prior to the issuance of any certificate of occupancy for a townhouse residential unit in the development

Jim L Jim L
Nov '16

So the HOA will pay for and maintain playground, tennis cts, etc but it'll have to be open to the public?

JWolfe75 JWolfe75
Nov '16

that's how I read it... again that is if they decide to build any of that on the open space. As of right now it is just open grass area with walking path around it

Jim L Jim L
Nov '16

Darrin - a certified letter receipt came in the mail on Friday

cloudyday cloudyday
Nov '16

"The open space shall be graded to accommodate the recreational facilities that are part of the approved Comprehensive Plan for the entire District"

I take that as it needs to be in the plans for approval, not as the homeowners assosiation can add whatever they want later, either way, good item to clarify on Jim!

Darrin Darrin
Nov '16

Re: Bergen Tool Project Phase 2: Townhomes and Apartments

Here is the copy of the notice

Meeting is tomorrow at 7:30pm

Darrin Darrin
Nov '16

Where they putting the drainage basin?

Pampurr Pampurr
Nov '16

between the homes on east prospect and the new townhomes

You may want to come to the meeting tonight Pampurr

Darrin Darrin
Nov '16

So phase 2 was approved at the last meeting.

After allowing multiple residents to ask and question about the shared parking with CVS, as well as other questions, and after public comment was over, in a real sleazy move and timing (in my opinion) the phase two attorney dropped a bomb shell that they were not able to get the shared parking agreement with CVS.

They had testified multiple times that they had it, and that it was deeded into CVS, but that did not seem to matter to the board. The CVS representative claimed that they have enough parking for themselves without the shared parking.

All the board members except Mr. Lambo voted yes......(thank you Mr. Lambo)

Once public comment was opened back up at the end of the meeting, I asked the town engineer to confirm the parking, because I have done the calculations and I come up with them being 35 spots short (before they added road parking to one of the streets which is only +/- 10 spots)

Waiting on the town engineers findings.

Darrin2
Nov '16

Since the developer dropped a bombshell at the tail end of the November meeting that they are unable to secure written agreement to shared parking with CVS, and the entire project and parking plans were based off of this, the board added to the resolutions that in order for phase two to be able to proceed they must produce a written agreement with cross easements for parking at CVS.

It was also confirmed that they DO NOT have enough parking by themselves, contrary to what Jade's Attorney stated on public record at the November meeting.

Big thank you to Jim L for remembering my question from the November meeting, as public comment was not opened back up on the resolutions of this project, despite the no shared parking technically being new testimony.

Darrin Darrin
Jan '17

Thank you Darrin for keeping us all informed, and to Darrin and Jim L for keeping them honest! Well not honest really.. for keeping them in compliance with agreements.

hktownie hktownie
Jan '17

Wow, you mean Jade's Attorney didn't tell the truth. Gee, I'm shocked to hear that, is anybody really surprised.

kb2755 kb2755
Jan '17

Driving past the CVS the other day and looking at the dirt piles in the field in the back made me wonder if there have been any developments in the project or if it's still stalled out with the parking issues.

brendan brendan
Jul '17

Disgusting isn't it?...

Pampurr Pampurr
Jul '17

Out of sheer curiosity, what's disgusting? That the whole project is stalled because of parking issues or that the developers tried to push through without ample parking to begin with?

JWolfe75 JWolfe75
Jul '17

I heard jade sold the project, can anyone confirm?

Darrin Darrin
Jul '17

It does look shabby! All they were concerned about was getting that CVS built as soon as possible.

Deviljet
Jul '17

Bottom line.... it's going to be very high density housing that will create an absolute traffic nightmare. People will begin to avoid Rte 46 and downtown Hackettstown.

Best of luck not getting your cars dented as the fire dept aerial attempts to navigate its way through.

fire251 fire251
Jul '17

Doesn't seem to be anything public about the sale Darrin.

There's no open listing for it either, although there's some interesting stuff in there like a 12 acre 145 or so unit monstrosity on the Musky behind/right of Applebees. Called Lion'a Gate.

http://www.loopnet.com/New-Jersey/Hackettstown-Commercial-Real-Estate/3/

strangerdanger strangerdanger
Jul '17

There have been no changes to the site plan that was approved in Nov 2016. You’d have to call and ask the developer if and when he plans to actually build

Jim L Jim L
May '18

Yeah....pretty much exactly what public voiced as concerns at the 2016 meetings ended up happening.....

When will the retention pond go in? They have been putting the surrounding properties at risk for 2+ years now

how do we know if and when phase two would be built?

Both questions were asked on public record at the meetings.....Lesson learned to the planning board.....they have actually brought it up at multiple other meetings and put time constraints on other developers so that this does not happen again.

Jim...quick question....when does their approved plans need to be extended again, if you can even extend again as I believe they have already gotten one extension with no face to show for it?

Maybe at the next extension it's time for the PB to put some constraints in....finish cleaning up the site and plant grass? Open space we were promised? etc....

Darrin Darrin
May '18

Jim L. People still asking about this project. You keep giving the same answer!!!!!

You are the one with all the answers.

Bernie Bernie
May '18

Ha how did I know if I came on here and responded to happiest girl’s question that my favorite troll Bernie would jump on me. She even sends me private emails. And as I replied to your email Bernie I’m not sure why you feel I have all the answers? I keep giving the same answer because the answer has not changed. The Planning Board approved the Phase 2 site plan in November 2016 ( with 1 no vote from me). Since then it’s up to the developer to decide when he’s actually going to start building. We have no power to make him

And as I replied in my email to you the Bilby Rd project was approved years ago and still has not begun construction. The planning Board added time frames into the WaWa site plans which states when each phase of the project needs to be completed by or face fines to prevent this from happening there

Jim L Jim L
May '18

Darrin their approval is for 2 years. So this November they would have to come in and ask for an extension. At That time the planning board will make sure certain things get done Before granting an extension

If you remember the Oct 2016 meeting the owner of the site actually scolded us for not voting on the site plans that night and pushing it back a month telling us how patient he has been while the PB delayed the process. Which our Chairman quickly and correctly pointed out that it was them that was taking forever
So when we approved it at the next meeting we figured they were all ready to go since they wanted the site plan approved the month before. Fast forward 1.5 years and nothing

Jim L Jim L
May '18

my apologies it was actually at the July 2016 meeting where the owner scolded us. And then amazingly did not show up to the August, Sept and Oct meeting.

"Michael Gottlieb, Jade Hackettstown, requested action at this meeting. Gottlieb stated they have waited for a long time for the board to take action. The Chairman replied the Town has waited a long time for the applicant to return to the board. "

So they wanted us to take action at the July 2016 meeting, then cancelled the next 3 meetings. Finally showed back up at the Nov meeting and we approved it. So again you'd have to ask them why the heck they have not started construction because they were so eager in July 2016 to get their site plan approved.

http://www.hackettstown.net/planning-zoning-boards/

Jim L Jim L
May '18

LOL! 100% Jim...I remember that meeting...they gave the PB crap about needing more time (a month) to think about it....meanwhile the PB and public waited on them for HOW long...years?!?!

Good...renewal is coming up, and it is good to hear the PB is already considering implementing some new rules before granting an extension.

Personally I would like to see the whole site converted to turf for now...(actually that's how I believe the original developers agreement was written)...yet somehow they were able to get approval to just covert next to CVS to turf and leave the back looking like a quarry....not sure how or why that was allowed....I asked once at a meeting but got the political answer.

If it could be converted to turf and opened to the public for the time being that would be great...but I don't see that happening.

They are still actually not done with the environmental cleanup on site, I wonder if the environmental cleanup portion has it's own deadlines.

My guess....we see work on site a few weeks before they come to the meeting ;-)

Darrin Darrin
May '18

I have a feeling those apartments/townhomes will never be built.

kb2755 kb2755
May '18

Now that sounds like a meeting moment.....

I noted above I called Lion's Gate "a 145-unit monstrosity." Not being more two-faced than usual JL, I still think it looks like a pretty good plan with a kinda-ugly swiss mountain chalet of a 145-unit building. Not my style, but PB did good IMO.

On this one, yeah, develop or turf, hopefully with run-off controls. But don't leave the open scar this neighborhood has had to live with for over a year now.

strangerdanger strangerdanger
May '18

"swiss mountain chalet"

Ha the Lion Gate website has a really old drawing still on there. It looks a lot better now than then original design back in 2006.

Jim L Jim L
May '18

The only concern was getting that CVS in ASAP!

Bruce juice
May '18

"Personally I would like to see the whole site converted to turf for now...(actually that's how I believe the original developers agreement was written)...yet somehow they were able to get approval to just covert next to CVS to turf and leave the back looking like a quarry....not sure how or why that was allowed....I asked once at a meeting but got the political answer."


Darrin I wasn't on the PB at the time of Phase 1 but attended the meetings with you. If you read the 10/22/2013 minutes you will see Shawn Burke bought up the retention ponds and turf be done during phase1. If you remember at that time the project was really going to have 3 Phases. The PB engineer and attorney both correctly brought up that CVS was the applicant in front of the board and they could not make CVS be responsible for the Phase 2 retention pond and turfing as it was not their land.

At that time the PB didn't even have a phase 2 application submitted so they couldn't even say what the retention ponds would look like. IMO The project should never have been split up and all planning should have been done at once for the whole site. Which would have saved the neighbors from dealing with this mess for as long has they have.

a funny side note at the end of that meeting Jade presented a conceptual plan for Phase 2...... 10/22/2013. It took them until 3/22/2016 to come to PB with a completed application..... but yea we were the ones that were delaying the process. LOL

Jim L Jim L
May '18

How did CVS meet their stormwater management obligation?

In the case of phased development, each individual phase must stand on its own; it can't defer stormwater management to a future phase.

ianimal ianimal
May '18

They did a lot. They redid all of E Stiger and the storm drains on that street. They put 2 detention tanks under their parking lot and if you look at the parking lot you can see a few spots where crap I’m blanking in the term water can pass through the asphalt parking lot. The used that

They Controlled all the water coming onto their site via Stiger and down 46. The retention ponds in the back (phase2) were for the water that entered the Bergen tool site from the residential roads to the east.

Jim L Jim L
May '18

the fact that E Stiger and CVS lot has not flooded is pretty good evidence as to how much stormwater management they did as that area would flood all the time

Jim L Jim L
May '18

Porous asphalt... and you just answered the question I was about to ask about how that intersection has improved or worsened re: flooding.

ianimal ianimal
May '18

lol thats the term, stupid smart phone couldn't guess what I was trying to type. :)

Jim L Jim L
May '18

That’s great that Stiger and CVS don’t flood. Seems ironic that since they built the CVS and did all the “storm water management”, Bergen st floods every time it rains. A big puddle covers the entire width of the road at about the center point of the street, and sits with stagnant water for days after a good rain. It’s eroding the asphalt severely. The town is aware of it as they have to come patch the massive pot holes from the water run off every couple months. Seems that as since as it can’t be seen from the cvs, that no one seems to care. Such a shame.

Townleasi
May '18

Townleasi...that's because CVS was built up on a hill...even if the surrounding areas flood...they will never. Also, no provisions for drainage was added to Bergen street. And the pipe that was draining Bergen street to East Stiger was removed and not replaced when they took down the buildings (That's your biggest problem)

As far as East Stiger...way better, no flooding as of yet, but we still have not had a 10 year flood...we have had some serious rains, but nothing like we had a few years back.

Darrin Darrin
May '18

So is a Bergen Street improvement part of the part 1,2,or 3 plans.

I agree, no killer rains, however, some pretty good ones which is a good sign.

strangerdanger strangerdanger
May '18

Bergen St the way it is now is going away in Phase 2. It will wrap around behind CVS and link up with E Stiger. So that part that floods will be gone. Also Bergen has flooded long before CVS was built. CVS contains all the rain water on their property and the rain that used to come down 46 and Stiger onto their property. While we have not had a 10yr storm we have had tons of hard rain storms without any issue at an intersection that would flood at the drop of a hat. Huge improvement

Jim L Jim L
May '18

“Huge improvement”

Agreed. They did a good job fixing that particular problem

justintime justintime
May '18

Jim...Bergen street would only flood when the drain that ran from the side of the building to east stiger clogged...that drain was removed with the addition of CVS (it would have ran directly under their building)

I agree, Huge improvement...but my point is, in my opinion, without the retention pond...we are ducks waiting for a 10y flood....the two improvements were suppose to go hand in hand, and phase 2 was suppose to be right behind CVS...hope everyone learned their lesson on that one.

Darrin Darrin
May '18

"They did a good job fixing that particular problem"

Not to ring my own bell...but those plans were ready to be approved WITHOUT fixing the problem...far from it...had a particular neighbor not gotten involved and taken 100s of photos and videos to the town professionals we would have been much worse off.

Everyone seems to forget about that....and says trust the professionals...look what they did over there.....as I said in one of the meetings...computer knowledge and calculations only get you so far....I live there...have seen it....and here is the pictures to PROVE it....2 years later...a MULTITUDE of storm water management changes....and the plans were finally approved.

Darrin Darrin
May '18

Darrin,
I am guessing this is a developer versus builder/owner issue, right?

Nonetheless, these things must be in the plan, including timing, to be able to get them done. Sounds like bad plan, bad results on this one, if you think the timing is wrong.

When plans have phases, and the phases are not guaranteed, with schedule, in the plan contract, the planners can anticipate delay for all sorts of reasons. Although on this one, it seems that many builders are beginning to start up again after our nasty little depression or huge freaking recession....you be the judge.

But lesson learned to HL planners and watchers ---- if it ain't in the plan......

strangerdanger strangerdanger
May '18

SD...two different owners, with a sub division...CVS split off and owns their part of the property, retention was planned on the original property, as part of phase 2 development, which is still owned by the owner who sold the lot to CVS (as far as I know)

Darrin Darrin
May '18

Looks like the developer hasn't paid his taxes in a while and is in the Town tax sale to the tune of 89k. Shocker, right?

PenwellRd PenwellRd
November 26th

Not surprised at all, was expecting it.


So if we all chip in a grand..we can stop it (lol)


So if this is in fact true, is it too soon to say told you so?


Update? Does anyone have access to the site plans for phase 2 of the project? I would like to see the proposed layout of the buildings, parking lots, and proposed open space.


The plans are available for viewing at Town Hall. Construction office.


I would think they still have them in the construction office Buck3, although I am unsure if they are expired by now, either way they should be on file for you to see.


Thanks.


When is the construction expected to start?

happiest girl
1 week ago

Happiest....I think roughly 3 years ago at this point? LOL!


The foxes are happy.

strangerdanger strangerdanger
1 week ago

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