Hackettstown Property Taxes Question

I was just preparing to pay my property taxes and took a detailed look at my bill. Compared to the year before, we are seeing an increase of $600 and more than 4%. It's the largest increase we have ever seen. When I break it down by category, I see that the school tax line is increasing more than $400 and more than 7%. I thought the school budget had a cap at something like a 2% increase. Does anyone know how the impact to the taxpayers could be this high?

Town Friend
Aug '16

Ha ha, not so simple, ex;
http://www.app.com/story/news/politics/new-jersey/2014/08/01/nj-tax-cap-limit/13464593/

OnTheEdge OnTheEdge
Aug '16

Thanks for the link, that is helpful. Are others in Hackettstown seeing the same % increase in the schoo amount? It's unreal that outside the public sector, companies can manage expenses, but in this school district, with the recent administration, they are growing in an unacceptable manner.

Town Friend
Aug '16

Here is the school budget web page:

http://hackettstown.org/Page/8262


If you look at both this years and last years budgets, the new budget is actually less than last years. It's almost exactly like 2014 in the end number, but the biggest change is in far less cap expenditures and some pull back of special education programs.

So why the change in tax rates - look at the calculation. It's not the budget $, it's the change in rateables. Check the Estimated Tax Rate section for both years, and look at the huge difference in the equalization ratio. Cause - tax appeals.


Yes, Town Friend I had the same increase on my bill. It's beyond ridiculous.


This is a result of people not going to school board meetings or council meetings and keeping abreast of just what hell is going on. They know that in a short amount of time people will forget about it. Within two weeks this topic will be distant history until next year at this time. What is needed is a watchdog group, but that is very unlikely to happen.

Onward Sheep

The Man The Man
Aug '16

OK here is something else.

We have been getting a "House Taxes Freeze" check for many years. Last year (2015) the threshold was $87,000.00 to be eligible on this. Come time to get the relief check we received a letter from the state starting that the threshold had been reduced to $70,000.00. We are no longer eligible. No warning, NOTHING.

Good old Mr Christie. What happened to his plan on taxes?????

Let's ride on the back of seniors!!!!!!!!!

Isabella
Aug '16

I received an information sheet and pie chart in my tax bill. It was an eye opener. The town has done a very good job; schools not so much. If you received it; thoroughly look it over.

towngirl towngirl
Aug '16

It's a shame that newspapers don't cover such meetings anymore. They were the watchdogs


All those Apartments with all those Kids, Somebody gotta pay for them!

4paws 4paws
Aug '16

Lol the old renters don't pay property tax misconception. I forgot us homeowners are paying for the renter's kids to go to school

Darwin Darwin
Aug '16

School tax ...hmmmm. why does a person with no kids pay the same amount as a person with 1 kid .. I don't get it .. if you have zero kids you should pay zero school tax .. if you have one kid you should pay X amount if you have two kids it should be double and so on... Guess we are all stuck paying for Mexicans and others who have way too many kids ... sorry it's the truth.

Wonderful USA Wonderful USA
Aug '16

Because someone paid for your education. How do you not get that?

Darwin Darwin
Aug '16

Tax bills in Liberty also increased mostly due to school tax increase. Min increased over $200 each quarter. I don't get how with the cuts the superintendent and BOE said they are making such as staff, cst, outsourcing, and sharing positions, why the increase. Seems like smoke and mirrors. I was wondering about the hackettstown school taxes as same stuperintendent in charge.


No one paid for my education ...worked 2 jobs to pay for it .

Yet, I am paying school taxes that are same as my neighbor w/ 3 children.

System is broken !

Steven Steven
Aug '16

He's talking elementary and high school. I don't have any kids either but I suppose that's my fault. Lol

But more seriously, I wonder if you the more kids you had the more you have to pay would be a deterrent to having more kids than you could afford. Or maybe a limit like everyone can have up to three kids and you all pay the same but after three it goes up.


+1 Darwin

Wonderful USA / Steven,

How about the benefits you receive from an educated society? Look around, people who went to school built the things you use, places you work. Did they just materialize out of nowhere? You want the US to slide backwards? %1 of the entire world has a college education.

I don't understand how people can be so shortsighted and me me me. And no, I don't have kids. Go live in India, their taxes are low. And %75 of the country doesn't have running water. SMH.

MeisterNJ MeisterNJ
Aug '16

"No one paid for my education ...worked 2 jobs to pay for it"


You had 2 jobs while in kindergarten?

Darwin Darwin
Aug '16

We, in America, have decided funding education to High School is an entitlement as a citizen and the patriotic obligation of all citizens to fund for the benefits it provides to the security of our nation. IMHO that should not change. It was a gift given to us, our obligation to pass forward to future generations, and our patriotic duty to fulfill.

The undocumented students coverage is wrong IMHO and NJ pays more than most states given our percentage. While I can understand the benefit of an educated citizenry, I am conflicted in this case. Solution is not to refuse the education, it is not the WALL but instead just implement e-verify and problem is instantly solved except for errors and breakage (which we can fix).

There are exceptions to the 2% cap including using holdbacks from previous years where you held the increase to under 2%. The other majors are capital expense (building) health care, and pensions. Chances are when you look under the budget, that's what you will find.

For example, in 2014, Htown went up 3.1%, Indy .2% and Liberty 1.1% so both Indy and Liberty had holdbacks on the 2% they could use for 3 years. Htown, probably not so I am guessing Htown had one or more of the other variables and was not using the holdback. Chances are it's the aging schools, teachers, and town infrastructure.

If you want to take apart the budgets and resulting taxes., here you go --- good luck! http://nj.gov/dca/divisions/dlgs/resources/property_tax.html

There should be a town meeting that discusses the increase. These are always fun and suggested that nothing else be put on the agenda.

strangerdanger strangerdanger
Aug '16

Is two "way too many kids"? How many people who complain now about the taxes will support a bill from their school for $30,000 as well as another $3000-$4000 in the rest of their taxes? If you don't like your bill now, you really aren't going to like that plan. There are plenty of really talented students out there that would never get the $15,000 a year even if they were an only child. Poor families simply would have to go without entirely, low enrollments would drive the cost up. Education would be available only to the elite.

SD - Maybe if you live in another town you may not be aware, but Hackettstown runs budget working sessions with the public. You not only can discuss it, you can actually be responsible for the budget. Guess how many people actually get involved? More to the point since the town's budget is really little changed in several years is the budget sessions at the Board of Ed. When you start to see how little you can modify the budget based on state mandates, you start to realize where the problem lays.

A 2% cap sounds great until you see the results. As long as the mandates continue the spending doesn't go anywhere. Yet the state starts pulling their money too, after all everyone is now only at 2%, right? The cap only ensures borrowing when the budget is so full of non-discretionary spending.

When it comes to 2015 vs 2014 and 2016, it's almost all capital improvements. Look into the student increases and you'll see much of that comes from the high school and is not entirely Hackettstown's burden. The biggest increase is in Allamuchy's share, with Independence also contributing some. It's really only Liberty that has little growth.

A little education goes a long way.


GC
The real education is available (and reserved) to elite only. By them, for them.
What the rest of the folks get, is a faint scent of education or, so called schooling.


Pyc, NJ education is some of the best in the land. HHS ranked 211th out of 339 NJ high schools. Another study ranked it at the bottom of the first third of all NJ High Schools. Ranking-wise, it appears to have done better in the 2013 time frame.

Some other ratings here mostly place us upper middle. http://www.zillow.com/hackettstown-nj/schools/

The thing to remember though is that's against the top state for schools in the nation: NJ, so average is still pretty good. My point is that if your kid is motivated, a good education can be had here.

GC, I get what you're saying but given the situation, an explanatory meeting probably would be a good thing and sounds like you have the opening text... Just saying that airing out the results is just as important as making the process transparent, which it sound like H-town did. I am guessing a results meeting would be better attended after the tax bills went out :>)

PS -- note to meeting planners. Invite the state guy and have him go first :>) Have the snow plows and police guys there too, they usually get an applause.

strangerdanger strangerdanger
Aug '16

211 out of 339 is good?

CraftBeerBob CraftBeerBob
Aug '16

CraftBeer ---- hey, we're mostly trying to educate conservative off spring. We start with a mental handicap to problem solving :>)

Seriously, bottom of the second third would be a not really, but other rankings place us higher like at the bottom of the first third (or top of the second third) and earlier rankings are higher yet so grain of salt on the lowest score.

Also, point was that 211 out of 339 from the top state school systems in the nation means HHS average is still pretty good on a national level no matter what ranking is used.

strangerdanger strangerdanger
Aug '16

stranger...,
The scores are good in gauging reaction/reply to the already known subject. This is similar to training and checking for errors. Applying accumulated knowledge to a new "problem"/situation is what counts and a result of education, in general.
If we were to lower the testing standards, almost 2/3 of our students will suddenly "become" brilliant and highly "educated".


SD - Have you ever been to any one of our town meetings? You can bring up the subject and have a long discussion at any meeting you'd like. The meetings are structured that way. But my point was anyone who ever wanted to could not only discuss the budget, they could *DO* the budget if they wanted. That's more than transparency.


"Go live in India, their taxes are low. And %75 of the country doesn't have running water. SMH."

Now, now. There's plenty of running water during the monsoon season. It runs downhill everywhere! (on a side note...I have to go back there in October...just as the season winds down. I hope the humidity is gone too...yeesh!)

------------------
"No one paid for my education ...worked 2 jobs to pay for it

You had 2 jobs while in kindergarten?"

I don't understand why people don't get that. As far as two jobs go, your income taxes don't pay squat towards your public education costs. Only the school portion of your property taxes. Based on the avg school tax and annual per student cost, it would take someone someone at least 20 years.

I did the math a few years back:
Annual Hackettstown cost per student $15,000
My school tax $5000

(15K * 13 years)/ $5k = 39 years

That's for each of my kids. We can adjust down to account for inflation to figure out what my personal education costs but the ratios and years to pay off are about the same. So, when I'm 60+ years old, I'll finally be able to legitimately complain about how high my school tax is...but then I'll be living off of the masses as I collect my share of the SS pyramid scheme.

emaxxman emaxxman
Aug '16

No one paid for my education ...worked 2 jobs to pay for it"


You had 2 jobs while in kindergarten?......Yes , my father actually worked 3 jobs, 1 full time and 2 part time ....

The system is broken !

And by the way, many of the best doctors in this country came from India and worked hard to get where they are.....our society has become lazy.!

Children stand outside Walmart looking for donations for cheerleading , while Shop Rite is hiring part time help......This is the new way , don't work , just ask for it..!?

Steven Steven
Aug '16

"Children stand outside Walmart looking for donations for cheerleading "

I'll agree with Steven on this point. I never ever donate to kids asking for donations. I'll support Girl Scouts cookie sales, car washes, even the kids walking door to door selling those discount cards. Kids need to be taught the value of working or providing something in exchange for the "donation."

I will say, this mentality is not new and we, the current adult generation, shouldn't act like we're much better. Kids were given allowances for doing nothing when I was a kid. I never had an allowance (my parents couldn't really afford one of significance) and my kids never had one.

emaxxman emaxxman
Aug '16

"CraftBeer ---- hey, we're mostly trying to educate conservative off spring. We start with a mental handicap to problem solving :>)"

No pushback to that, huh? Oh, that's right. You're the upstanding, always correct and never wrong guy that couldn't problem-solve his way out of a paper bag. Uh huh. Idiot.

The main issue is what GC alluded to, all the mandates by the government, both the state and federal agencies. Worse than that are the supposed "freebies" - the grants that everyone thinks are free yet come with major stipulations. Throw both together and you have a recipe in which there is little room for anything other than what governments are telling the schools to do, unless taxes increase accordingly. So all the extra stuff we would like our kids to have comes after all the mandates.

Bottom line, kill the Federal Dept of Education. With that relatively recently created gargantuan monster out of the way (it didn't exist when many of us under-educated folks were in school) we'd have a chance at taking control of things locally. The state mandates can be taken care of after that.

And if anyone has any concerns about the levels of proper education without government involvement, the easiest and most obvious replacement for both would be for an independent education standards board, run similar to the way industry standards are generated, operated by intelligent proposals rather than forceful mandates.

The only reason for wanting government intervention is if one truly believes people are too stupid to make their own decisions. IMO that's a ridiculous assumption, for if it were correct our society would have never progressed past fire and the wheel. Government, once again, is the problem and not the solution.

justintime justintime
Aug '16

"No pushback to that, huh? Oh, that's right. You're the upstanding, always correct and never wrong guy that couldn't problem-solve his way out of a paper bag. Uh huh. Idiot." No sense of humor for this guy whatsoever....just another chance for name calling again. And then a tirade of feckless, unsubstantiated anti-government generalities wrapped in a rugged individualist mantra.

Where are the facts JIT?

"The only reason for wanting government intervention is if one truly believes people are too stupid to make their own decisions." I just hate to keep reminding you JIT, government IS the people. Just apparently not your people.

Do they make mistakes? Sure. So does any private or non-profit organization. Are they too large? Sure, that waxes and wanes over time just like any private or non-profit organization.

Madison said of government: ""the greatest of all reflections on human nature" and Hamilton added: "If mankind were to resolve to agree in no institution of government, until every part of it had been adjusted to the most exact standard of perfection, society would soon become a general scene of anarchy, and the world a desert." Or a Gulch.

So some facts:

The US Government's Education Budget is about 3-4% of the national budget, the largest piece of this goes to Pell Grants, i.e. college loans gets around a third of the budget. The next largest slice goes to Title 1, or low income districts. Then, the next piece of big government force goes to Special Education services, followed by early childhood, head start and finally ---- race to the top ---- forced federal innovation through competition at the local/state level including teacher improvement programs. Programs are up to the state, local and the schools --- results determine the payout. So there's your force.... http://www.usnews.com/news/blogs/data-mine/2016/01/14/federal-education-funding-where-does-the-money-go

The Federal portion of the local school budget represents about 8% of school funding K-12. About 92% of K-12 financing comes from the state and local level. The less than 10% that is federally forced programs is mostly about college funding and K-12 school programs for poor and special education students.

The Department of Education was created in 1867 as a clearinghouse of national data. It became a cabinet-level department in 1980 and today is the smallest cabinet-level department in America although it's discretionary budget is third behind Defense and Health and Services. Remember, the largest chunk of that discretionary budget goes to Pell Grants.

Over the years, the department and budget have grown. There was also a huge spike during the Bush Great Recession to stop teacher lay-offs when the states couldn't come up with the bucks. Amazingly much of the budget growth is largely due to national defense. The first wave was WWII with the GI Bill and then Impact Aid supporting local schools in districts with large military and federal institutions. Another wave came after Sputnik launched. And then the wave for civil rights and poverty in the 60/70's which is where JIT probably starts noticing. And recently, No Child Left Behind (Bush) and stimulus-fueled Race-To-The-Top (Obama) spiked the budget and the ire of those feeling they were losing control. These are the ones JIT probably alludes to, although miniscule in terms of DoE budget and state school budgets, and budget/program wise, the DoE is much more than that.

So we can argue the use of the discretionary budgets, can argue the effectiveness of recent programs like No Child and Race, but don't tell me the Federal Government is taking over the schools. Not at 8% budget control. http://lwv.org/content/history-federal-government-public-education-where-have-we-been-and-how-did-we-get-here

No Child Left Behind is the biggest bug-a-boo here since it is tied to all school federal funding. That's about 8% on average but could be higher in poorer states. But much of it is still left to the states, including the student/teacher assessments --- so it's not so much federal as it is state. Race to the Top is a competition based on education innovation --- it's a choice, not a mandate.

Education is about national defense. Without it we will become weak. The Federal Government, not the States, realized this and took action. Federal support provided over 70 million acres of public land for schools, college programs for returning GIs, programs to improve science during the cold war in response to Russia's space race, a clearing house of national data on schools, vocational, agricultural, and industrial training programs. None of this could be done at a state level.

Could an independent board be better than the DoE. Sure, if you gave it the DoE budget as a start. Is there any guarantee it would be better. Absolutely none. Where's the proof JIT?

strangerdanger strangerdanger
Aug '16

"Do they make mistakes? Sure. So does any private or non-profit organization."


If a private or non-profit organization makes mistakes I couldn't care less...

Oh no! Apple didn't put a USB port on the left side of their next iPad!


So yes, the government IS the people, but it's people that can tell other people (through the use of force) what to do, even if they don't agree (as opposed to just not buying the iPad).

Mark Mc. Mark Mc.
Aug '16

"If a private or non-profit organization makes mistakes I couldn't care less..." Can you say BP, Exxon, Enron, Monsanto, a host of Pharma's, and so on and so on. Oh you care all right. Lately I have been hearing many care about The Clinton Foundation...

Oh yeah, but once you do buy an I-anything or Mac ---- not like Apple forces you to do anything in their proprietary closed universe....

If any of you don't like the "force" aspect of the government ---- go to Galt's Gulch, a place that blows big time in both fact and fiction....

Fact: https://www.dollarvigilante.com/blog/2015/12/07/whatever-happened-to-galts-gulch-chile.html

Fiction Fact: http://www.alternet.org/civil-liberties/ayn-rands-demented-mind-understood-through-atlas-shrugged

Fiction seems to highlight what actually happened in reality. It didn't work.

I just love how you flaunt the use of force by the government but have no idea of a better idea and when you're like-minded individualists, sorry objectivists, finally get their chance, they turn out to be money-grubbing thieves using force. So whine on or show us some solutions.

Certainly replacing DoE with "an independent education standards board, run similar to the way industry standards are generated, operated by intelligent proposals rather than forceful mandates" could be a good solution but DoE is more than just standards as the budget indicates. On the standards end though if people are upset about No Child Left Behind what do you think the outcome of an independent board adopting ISO-like levels of quality management both on control and taxes? And how does this reduce the force aspect? Just seems to shift it IMHO. So perhaps a great idea but who's to know.

strangerdanger strangerdanger
Aug '16

"I just love how you flaunt the use of force by the government but have no idea of a better idea and when you're like-minded individualists, sorry objectivists, finally get their chance, they turn out to be money-grubbing thieves using force. So whine on or show us some solutions."

Objectivists? Why do you say that, because the reality that one's perspective can't possibly be the same as an others is too much for your mind to comprehend? Likely, seeing as you've shown a pretty harsh side to those who view the world different than you.

Anyway, no other group will ever get the chance MM - the Republicrats have things locked down pretty darn well, wouldn't you agree? Besides, far too many people like the debt-based theft from future generations to get what they want today, thus the mandatory requirement to send the boys and girls in blue around demanding compliance, of course using that force that you oh so love. It will take a revolution of sorts for anyone else to get the chance. And guess what? You're doing a bang-up job pushing things along in that direction, willfully trying to make that happen it seems. Soon enough, I guess we finally know what "Hope and Change" really meant ;-)

About the federal department of education, it may be the "smallest" department but it consumes yearly $1500 from every man, woman and child to run, the equivalent of about 10% of the per pupil cost that emaxx posted above to run the schools. So if most of that doesn't get back to the schools who need it, what's the point, other than you feeling pretty good about having redistributed the money around, giving you the false belief that *you* are helping to make a difference? It's just one of many thousands of government programs with supposedly the same goal, every one of whom tends to justify their ability to use force to achieve outcomes that, they say, couldn't have happened without them. Each one of the programs by themselves? Not terrible, really. But in sum total? It's a cluster$^##. But go ahead and imply that those who disagree just hate all of it. Your prerogative, of course.

And I continue to wonder, how is it that both you and I, and everyone else in this country who was in school prior to the 1980's, never mind our parents and grandparents, can seemingly get along in society without significant handicaps? I mean, if it is the government that creates all the good in the world, surely, by extension then, you must be pure evil for not having had the pleasure of sucking on that teat in your younger years?

" On the standards end though if people are upset about No Child Left Behind what do you think the outcome of an independent board adopting ISO-like levels of quality management both on control and taxes? And how does this reduce the force aspect? Just seems to shift it IMHO."

But you are missing the point. You still seem to think "control" is part of the equation. In industry, if a business chooses not to follow standard practices they either fail on their own or their customers seek business elsewhere. IOW, there is *choice*, not control. C'mon now, haven't you seen the common thread in nearly every discussion? Your view relies mostly on control, aka force, while others desire choice. It really is that simple.

justintime justintime
Aug '16

The "Bush Great Recession", saw how you slipped that one in. I guess the changing of the rules on home ownership by FNMA and Freddie Mac which was introduced by Barney Frank and Chris Todd had nothing to do with it. You know, every American citizen should be able to own a home. Also making the Bank's lower their thresholds also. Know don't get me wrong, there were many other willing participants who put people in properties that they could not afford with all kinds of creative financing that FNMA and Freddie backed that were packaged and bundled into pools of securities. If the rules and guidelines weren't changed I highly doubt we would have had that recession and if so, a much lesser one. We still haven't fully recovered from it despite the stock market going up like it has.

kb2755 kb2755
Aug '16

JIT just can't do this without calling names. So adult.

"About the federal department of education, it may be the "smallest" department but it consumes yearly $1500 from every man, woman and child to run, the equivalent of about 10% of the per pupil cost that emaxx posted above to run the schools." Has got to be the funniest math I have seen for awhile. Do you want to check your work before I sally forth? I take it by "to run" you mean the program outlays and not just the management costs. Still really funny math that you should correct on your own.

"Your view relies mostly on control, aka force, while others desire choice. It really is that simple." Simple you say. You say you desire choice but in truth you desire chaos. You say government is force, law is force and instead you want choice. That's chaos.

But I am wrong. When pushed, you say you really don't want total choice, no controls. You just want to move the line where you decide it belongs, your way. And you would force your way if only you could. You've stated your willingness to force a total breakdown of the status quo even via disaster in order for you to get your way ---- the choice way.

Can't wait to see that math....:>) (<:

strangerdanger strangerdanger
Aug '16

KB: I think after being handed a robust economy and federal budget surplus 8 years earlier, that 8 years later handing Obama a huge debt and the largest recession since The Great Depression says the guy at the helm pretty much owns it ---- whether 100% culpable or not.

strangerdanger strangerdanger
Aug '16

JIT; KB:

he don't like free choice, He wants to be the one who gets to tell you what you will think and how you will behave, and he will solely decide when something, anything is proven, (what a frickin' ego), BUSTED!!

"It's all for the common good" anyone who dares to disagree will be rounded up and 're-educated' that big government is good, resistance is futile and you will be assimilated (or at the very least made fun of on this forum)

good use of the term 'republicrats' , you could also add the term 'Democrians' and switch them back and forth, I am thinking that those uneducated liberals (like MM) who are 'problem solving challenged' will not include the democratic party in their take away which you are conveying in your 'ascertain' (emphasis on the 'ass' part) :) :)

It's ok to say it that way because i included the smiley face moniker which clearly labels it as 'sarcasm' and anyone who doesn't get the joke can now be labeled as humorless,

the locally self-anointed as 'great' MM has the thinnest skin of anyone on this forum, and proves that on a daily basis now for about 6 years or so, he can't take a joke but dishes them out liberally expecting his targets for abusive comments to 'get it' , and if they dare to object he then accuses them: "No sense of humor for this guy whatsoever....just another chance for name calling again"

him not being able to see this himself does indeed lend substance in action to the term 'idiot'

good hob JIT in pointing that out yet again, keep up the efforts, I believe they are not wasted, most who read this forum see the sense of what you are presenting, but the self-delusional MM thinks he is the only one who has the authority to declare what is 'factual'. even when his tirades are just opinions based on wacka-doddle liberal web sites; and he is dead wrong about this of course, (what a frickin'' ego! it's a personal problem that could be worked in therapy) ; (oh wait a minute . . . . . :) :) . . . there, that makes it ok to post) . . . . ;) it's joke, it's sarcasm, where's YOUR sense of humor?

hahahhahahahahhaha . . . . get it? what? no? "No sense of humor for this guy whatsoever...."

"Busted"

BrotherDog BrotherDog
Aug '16

Ah, another name caller heard from. Not a fact presented, all facts questioned without merit or even a hint of a fact for proof. And lots of names: idiot, uneducated (that's a new one), and ass.

But good job to JIT he says for pointing out what makes sense.

Or does it....

“About the federal department of education, it may be the "smallest" department but it consumes yearly $1500 from every man, woman and child to run, the equivalent of about 10% of the per pupil cost that emaxx posted above to run the schools.”

Wow, this is some real objective thinking.

It is true that the Fed puts in about 10% of the K-12 budget which would be $1,500 per student against Emaxx’s $15,000 which actually was $18,000 in 2013 and might be as high as 19,000 today. So, first mistake is to use NJ’s rate as the national average….. Did you miss the part about how expensive NJ is? The national average for 2013 was $12,000.

Here’s a really cool web page on the costs. http://www.edweek.org/ew/section/multimedia/map-how-per-pupil-spending-compares-across-us.html

Then you take your $1,500 and multiply it by US population to come up with DoE budget of $478.5B which seems a tad high for an organization with a budget of about $70B for discretionary spending. Even when you roll in all the other Federal spending for education beyond DoE you come up with about $120B. Why? Because the Federal budget was 10% of each student costs which comes to $1,500 per student, not $1,500 per citizen. Brilliant objective thinking that only a dog would lap up as fact :>)))

But wait, there’s more. You forgot that the lion’s share of DoE budget goes to higher ed. You also forgot that much of the budget is for welfare feeding of poor kids, etc. etc. etc. which we would probably cough up anyway unless you like starving school-age kids.

So your math is completely whack-a-doodle but you do make the point: “So if most of that doesn't get back to the schools who need it, what's the point,” which I am pretty sure no one can argue with. And then you wax objectivist for a while closing with:

“Each one of the programs by themselves? Not terrible, really. But in sum total? It's a cluster$^##.” I just have to ask, are you using the same incredible math skills here that say “the sum of not terrible programs = clusterfox?” Ah, the objectivism law of social program conclusion proven by JITonianobjectivist math, a beautiful thing.

"good hob JIT in pointing that out yet again, keep up the efforts, I believe they are not wasted, most who read this forum see the sense of what you are presenting, but the self-delusional MM thinks he is the only one who has the authority to declare what is 'factual'. "

“When the debate is lost, slander becomes the tool of the loser.” Socrates.

strangerdanger strangerdanger
Aug '16

I guess the next President will say I inherited an additional 11 trillion in debt and the worse GDP growth in a 8 year period. Don't blame me.

kb2755 kb2755
Aug '16

I see that the posting style of "Shock and Awe" is still your mainstay there MM. Your aggregating program must be running full-tilt these days!

"Has got to be the funniest math I have seen for awhile. Do you want to check your work before I sally forth? I take it by "to run" you mean the program outlays and not just the management costs. Still really funny math that you should correct on your own."

Well, I'll give you the benefit of doubt here and assume that you know not what you write. Lemme splain there Lucy...

First, I see that you initially had difficulty with emaxx's number of $15k, but subsequently thought better about it and threw a bunch of words around to say that well, he was right but his numbers are old, so he's really wrong. Fine, old numbers no good, new numbers good - got it. Unlike what I do with you, I presume emaxx is correct when he posts and thus used his $15K number. Thanks for verifying it. Oh, and since we're talking about H'town schools I thought it prudent to frame the calculations around that baseline. Silly me for forgetting you would use your MM skills to spin it away from what was intended. I'll try to do better to remember next time...

Anyway, sticking with the $15k because that was the basis for the calculation, kindly note that the units are dollars per year. With me so far?

Now, Department of Education budget - what it costs to run the department for a year - I used $78B (the B stands for Billion, or 78 followed be NINE zeros - 78,000,000,000). But since you're making a stink of things, I looked further and found the $78B was a projected number. It's actually closer to $71B, but if you want I can also include the proposed $145B to be spent over the next ten years (that would be another $14.5B per year if you're still with me), but that would work against your argument so I'll just leave that off for now.
http://www2.ed.gov/about/overview/budget/budget16/budget-factsheet.pdf

Now how many kids are in the US school system? According the one of the disciples of your Lord, the Goverment, The National Center for Education Statistics, there were just over 50M students enrolled pre-K through grade 12.
http://nces.ed.gov/fastfacts/display.asp?id=372

Now for the tough part: division! Try to keep up please, but since you were in school prior to the Federal Department of Education and were thus severely uneducated, I'll understand. Take the department budget of $78B and divide by the student population of 50M. The answer is, drum roll please....1560 dollars/student. But I rounded the number! So sorry if that caused any confusion for you! :-(

So roughly (close enough, OK, not exact!) $1560/student is what it costs to fund the federal department of education. Any dispute with that? (lol, I know there will be Ha)

And it costs Htown roughly $15000/student (yes, more today... I get it), so we get to do another division problem. Too much math! $15000/$1500 is what ratio? What's that, 10;1 you say? Hmm, 10 parts out of 100 is also a 10:1 ratio. And when a ratio is related to 100, by golly I think that's called percent! 10% in this case!

Geez MM, you really do need to get a life. So do I, apparently, because I'm wasting my time just writing this response. :-)

As to the rest of your regurgitated diatribe, I don't have the energy. Pick one simple topic and I'll gladly take time to address it, but I just can't keep up with the constant changing of attack patterns and the "throw everything at the wall simultaneously on a forum because I know no one has the time or energy to address it all" posting style...

justintime justintime
Aug '16

"JIT just can't do this without calling names. So adult."

No, I'm good except for one individual situation. My particular fault is that I hate (a word I rarely use due to its strength) bullies. Hate them. So yes, I am guilty of throwing crap back at bullies who throw it first.

My bad, I think I need another self-imposed timeout.

justintime justintime
Aug '16

"Lemme splain there Lucy..." "since we're talking about H'town schools I thought it prudent to frame the calculations around that baseline." and then you extrapolated those numbers to a national level and expected a sound conclusion. Given NJ is the highest education price in the land, that's a bad assumption. Of those you have many.

As Exmaxx noted and I showed: 15K was a few years back. Yes 10% of that is "The answer is, drum roll please" 1,500. Very good. And you have the correct total DOE 2015 (i think) budget and when you divide that by the student population you get 1,520. Kismet.

Except that in your haste to prove you can do basic math, once again you crafted many root assumptions that any objective person would see as false.

"I see that you initially had difficulty" with your own stated conclusion where you said: "....the federal department of education.....consumes yearly $1500 from every man, woman and child to run, the equivalent of about 10% of the per pupil cost.....”

I can understand that you can't remember what you wrote or an early paragraph of my rebuttal to which you were copiously responding with overt sarcasm I would add. "Well, I'll give you the benefit of doubt here and assume that you know not what you write" or read....

$1,500 per student consumed by every, man, woman, and child... US population is 323M so if 1,500 is consumed by 323,000,000, the resulting DoED budget would be... " The answer is, drum roll please...." $478.5B (the B stands for Billion, or 478 followed be NINE zeros - 478,000,000,000). Which it is not $78B and therefor "$1,500 per student consumed by every, man, woman, and child is blatantly false.

"With me so far?" Because you have missed it twice already and three strikes....

You also missed that of the $78B DoED budget you quoted, only a portion goes to K-12; the largest portion, like 1/3rd (can you handle fractions?) goes to higher education funding (Pell Grants). So that total does not jibe with your $1,500 per K-12 student times total students equals total budget (which isn't totally used for those students) assumption. It was just coincidence.

Not to mention the DoED budget year and the Exmaxx student cost year are years apart making such a comparison useless to begin with. Useless might be your epitaph. Confusion will be mine :>)

Not to mention that DoED percentage of K-12 per student cost is less than 10% which you could have just looked up or read it a few entries above to have avoided penning such stupidity to begin with. The actual number for DoED K-12 funding is around 8% of the total K-12 per student cost which "since you were in school prior to the Federal Department of Education and were thus severely uneducated, I'll understand" if this is beyond you ---- your conclusion will be off by 20% even if your other assumptions were correct, which, of course, they are not. Now that 20% outage was based on a national average, but since you only used NJ to sum the total national budget, and since NJ is the highest price in the land, the 20% outage would probably be over 30%. Oh yeah, and then you used the total budget and not the K-12 budget to ice your objectivist assumptive cake. Sorry, it's just math Dude.

"Assumptions are dangerous things to make, and like all dangerous things to make -- bombs, for instance, or strawberry shortcake -- if you make even the tiniest mistake you can find yourself in terrible trouble....... For instance, one morning you might wake up and make the assumption that your bed was in the same place that it always was, even though you would have no real evidence that this was so. But when you got out of your bed, you might discover that it had floated out to sea, and now you would be in terrible trouble all because of the incorrect assumption that you'd made. You can see that it is better not to make too many assumptions, particularly in the morning.” Lemony Snicket

strangerdanger strangerdanger
Aug '16

Really? You stop short reading a sentence and thats your justification for careening off the rails and showing off your own narcissistic tendencies?

Although I can see now why you misunderstood what I wrote, in the context of what was written your immediate conclusion makes no sense. I should have said "consumes yearly $1500/pupil from every man, woman and child to run, the equivalent of about 10% of the cost that emaxx posted above to run the schools", even though the last part of the original sentence should have clarified it for you. But you're right, that small omission was enough for you to do what you do best, opened the door so to speak, which is to manipulate every topic from the intended point to whatever it takes to feed your need for being right all the time.

Otherwise, i see your point that the comparison I was making should have included higher education to be accurate. Feel better now that your ego has been stroked? ;-)

justintime justintime
Aug '16

it's amazing how he keeps proving my points for me, nice! :)

;)

BrotherDog BrotherDog
Aug '16

Which one, BD, JIT or SD? They're both at it as if they weren't birds of a feather. The problem isn't which one is right, but in missing the irony of how they're both doing the same things they accuse each other of. Something to take to heart BD.


Narcissistic tendencies? Now there's another new one..

That's some mea culpa you have penned there mostly expressing personal disdain at my pointing out you blew your conclusion built on a house of card-like assumptions.

But in focusing only on the major oops while suggesting the rest is solid, you missed all those facts suggesting that you were off on a number of the other supporting assumptions: DoED funding covers more than K-12, K-12 Federal funding is more than DoED, it's not 10% of the total, it's 8%, national averages and local actuals should be mixed very cautiously (and with notes) and your two main numerical factors (HHS per pupil costs and DoED budget totals) were generated years apart requiring a minimum of fluctuation between the years.

Try this: Federal funding in NJ for K-12 equals 4.1% of the total per pupil spending bill. This was for 2009, I did not look for later years but it's probably impossible for it to be 10% and even the national average of 8% is highly unlikely. Especially when you consider that Federal funding nationally decreased 20% from 2011 to 2015.

Not that it matters, but given the 4.1% NJ funding level and the 8% national funding level, you can deduce that probably there is a heck of a lot of variation in Federal funding levels per state. Combined with the huge variation in per pupil costs per state, there's a whole lot of range in these state percentages from the national average.

NJ per pupil costs for 2015 are $19,652, up over 2% from the previous $17,907. From 2010 to 2014, NJ per pupil spending wavered between $16,806 and $18,524 rising and falling during the period. Overall trend is up.

Hopefully, based on the facts, you can see that your assumptions deriving the $1,500 must be flawed. The real number is probably around $800 for NJ and about $900 on a national level.

How narcissistic of me.

But for anyone not falling asleep yet, with school age kids, and thinking of moving.... Lesson learned from all this is to check those per pupil spending levels for the state you might be moving too. Maybe the Federal Funding levels too. It's not always what you think like poor states fair worse. Utah's funding is minimal, like one of the lowest, and their results are about 38th in the nation. So kudos for bang the buck and too bad you still suck. If you are thinking of moving with school age kids, good to check.

And for JIT (look, no clever brand name like MM), YES --- NJ spends at the highest per pupil levels in the nation, usually 3rd or 4th in the nation. And we have one of the best schools system results in the nation. Most other top ranked state school systems spend at commensurate levels with NJ. And because no doubt of the federal funding formula and NJ's prosperity, NJ does not get it's fair share of federal funds either. No news there.

So my point in the past has been that YES, NJ could reduce education spending but we need to be careful since we really don't want to lower our standards and the resulting rankings. Obviously, beyond the money, NJ educators are doing something right. Let's not mess with that. Especially with Christie proposed slash n burn total disruption programs.

http://www.edcentral.org/edcyclopedia/school-finance/

http://www.usnews.com/news/blogs/data-mine/2015/06/24/report-federal-education-funding-cut-by-5-times-more-than-all-spending

http://www.governing.com/gov-data/education-data/state-education-spending-per-pupil-data.html

strangerdanger strangerdanger
Aug '16

Yes GC, agreed. Sometimes the urge to right a perceived wrong overrides social etiquette, and if you saw the first version of my latest post, prior to an edit, you already know what I mean.

In the end these recent tangents aren't about discussing reality. As you said earlier they are just raw emotional outbursts, in my case expressing a general disgust for a fellow human being based on differences in moral compasses. I'm a little ashamed by my part in it all, but not apologetic for even one second given the loooonnnnng history of the target of my dislike.

Our interactions seem to be a small microcosm of what's happening on a larger scale in our society, and stubborn arrogance, all around I might add, does nothing to help.

Timeout time...

justintime justintime
Aug '16

GC - got your point, and I thank you for it. It is well taken, and i am glad to see that you got mine, thanks for that one.

i have to agree with what JIT posted here -

"in my case expressing a general disgust for a fellow human being based on differences in moral compasses. I'm a little ashamed by my part in it all, but not apologetic for even one second given the loooonnnnng history of the target of my dislike. "

+1 JIT, i agree with you, and there are many others here who also agree with you as i have heard from them personally when out and about town. they are tired of this dishonest and mean spirited charleton. and they want it to stop. regular H-town area folks have communicated to me they are not ok with this behavior.

i am continually surprised by the co-enabling support that this poster receives here. as JIT states the 'differences in moral compasses' is quite distinct and it's glaring.

the continued mistreatment of other community members chills participation on this board. i have always stood straight up to bullies and called them out on their behavior, and will continue to do so. so the resident trolls here had better beware. the fact that only a very few take on this behavior straightforwardly is a concern.

BrotherDog BrotherDog
Aug '16

"They're both at it as if they weren't birds of a feather." It's been a week. I know I should resist yet I humbly beg to differ.

Except for one passage where I parroted JITs own words, I thought I was calm and focused on facts supported by reliable sources. Not much opinion in this last duologue, just some bad assumptions leading to inaccurate conclusions. Hard to spin this simple math even as JIT claims massive manipulation on my part. He feels bullied by something and therefore all his name calling and brand naming is justified.

In the end, JIT seems to claim his part in this discussion as some sort of morality play between polar opposites representing a societal microcosm of our turbulent times. Self-proclaimed as bringing much historical baggage for what he calls the target of his dislike, he apparently feels he is battling on a higher plain of good and evil than merely his outlandishly bogus claims for student spending by the Federal government.

Two sides of the same coin? I ask on which side of the coin was the bullying, the name calling, the brand naming and the attempted browbeating? No, in this last discussion, I do not think we were birds of a feather. One side presented mostly facts, the other a lot of baggage and personal attack.

Topping it off, Bdog doubles down literally being stopped in the street by a multitude of the masses in total agreement. I’m the talk of the town amongst Bdog’s acquaintances. A virtual moral compass neighborhood tsunami. He not only sees a morality play but one where I am supported by throngs of others he accuses of as co-enabling. Apparently some term he has just coined. But feel good, feel safe. Bdog is calling them out as well as being bullies. They better beware because he is standing straight up. Although he is gravely concerned that others have not joined his Crusade of the Compass. Hmmmm…

Co-enablers unite and set those compass controls for the heart of the sun.

“Over the mountain watching the watcher.
Breaking the darkness, waking the grapevine.
One inch of love is one inch of shadow.
Love is the shadow that ripens the wine.

Set the controls for the heart of the sun. The heart of the sun, the heart of the sun.

Witness the man who raves at the wall.
Making the shape of his questions to Heaven
Whether the sun will fall in the evening.
Will he remember the lesson of giving?

Set the controls for the heart of the sun. The heart of the sun, the heart of the sun.”

+1 Roger Waters….

strangerdanger strangerdanger
Aug '16

Can't let it go, can you? Like I said, you have a severe ego problem bordering on narcissism and I really don't think you can help it. I feel sorry for you, actually.

I chose to not reply to your last response (a week ago) because, as GC reminded me, I had once again dropped into the weeds trying to point out the perspective differences in your logic, and felt that my part in the childishness that always ensues when you're involved in discussions was wrong. I apologize for taking the low road, but sometimes things just need to be said. Feeling better now, so have at it all you want.

But since you really can't let these things go, I'll make a final post here for clarification of the entire point of our back-and-forth in this thread, this one last time just to put things back into perspective.

The "math" issue that has swelled the size of your chest was based on incomplete information - my ignorance of the subject matter. I am not immune to ignorance, although I sometimes think that you believe you are, and I will always admit as much, even when admitting that ignorance directly inflates your ego. Earlier you had called acknowledgement of my ignorance a mea culpa, but it really wasn't about the math because the math was correct given the context in which the calculations were made. So no, there was no error in that regard. The error was my doing a fast drive-by on a local town forum, thinking that a quick response without doing hours or days of research on a minor tangential subject would be sufficient. It wasn't, and I acknowledged it.

Which gets me to the main point that I have tried to make many times over (and the one that grinds my gears more than anything): Your condescension of the views of others, manifested in your continual "humor" toward those with whom you disagree, is more often than not due to the ignorance of one or both parties to the discussion. IOW, instead of further discussion to clarify whatever perspective you're trying to convey, your MO is to make a quick-witted "humorous" response that does nothing to address whatever ignorance you perceive. But it surely feeds your ego, so that makes it just peachy I guess.

Regarding the subject of ignorance, I truly believe that your ignorance is willful. You seem to intentionally minimize truths that do not support the reality you would like to see, spinning any and every discussion away by using often irrelevant information that supports your views and minimizes that of others. The 10,000 foot view is not your forte, and accurately describing the blades of grass, the type of weeds, the dirt that's underfoot (the weeds view) instead of noticing that the law mower is coming down the home stretch (the 10,000 ft view), seems to be a much more appealing perspective to you. You're not wrong in the things you write, it's just that your presentation of the "facts" rarely represent the bigger picture. So if my assumption of wilful ignorance is correct, the moniker of Master Manipulator is quite apropos, a badge I would think you'd want to wear with honor as it was bestowed on you for your masterful ways of always twisting every single subject to fit your particular world view.

I think that if you simply eliminated any condescension from your posting style you'd have little push back from those with different perspectives.

Have a nice day. I'm out...

justintime justintime
Aug '16

Yeah, lots of baggage..... not germane to the discussion at hand but full of JIT from the past.

strangerdanger strangerdanger
Aug '16

Last word again, eh? Unsurprising lol ;-)

justintime justintime
Aug '16

Why can't my bank and The Town of Hackettstown get my mortgage escrow account correct..with the new increased taxes? Always, Always a shortage..

pampurr pampurr
Sep '16

Mortgage company does the same to me , every year ...

Steven Steven
Sep '16

Is that M&T Bank?..Ever since they have taken over Hudson City Savings Bank I have had nothing but issues.

pampurr pampurr
Sep '16

No, mine is Santander, ( since they took over Sovereign ( who took over Charter Federal Savings & Loan...and they were great !

All computerized, no personal contact....I hate it !

Steven Steven
Sep '16

Pampurr, WHAT mortgage?? According to public, yes, PUBLIC records, you don't own "your" house; you sold it to your dear hubby for $1 and are just living there on his generosity.

The Bare Facts The Bare Facts
Sep '16

Yes you people are ignorant! Follow the $$! We are paying for the "Abott" districts.... The 300k$ plus supes! Christie has a good point about all persons get equal amount of $$! Freaken libs!


Thanks Steven..we have yet to even speak to a rep...hard to get through on the phone after repeated attempts.....

pampurr pampurr
Sep '16

Navy, please let us know where these 300k supts are.

Looking forward to a well researched (paint chip laden) response.

btownguy btownguy
Sep '16

Sorry $235k plus perks.....Newark.


Superintendent salaries, ranked high to low :
http://patch.com/new-jersey/chatham/all-nj-school-superintendents-salaries-2016-ranked-highest-lowest

OnTheEdge OnTheEdge
Sep '16

I notice a person can be superintendent in more than one district ...... wow, double salary.

happiest girl
Sep '16

Finally got a person on the phone at M &T bank..my taxes have gone up 400 dollars in one year..!!

pampurr pampurr
Sep '16

I am in Mansfield and my taxes went up this year also. Mortgage company is doubling the amount needed so they can increase their reserve. Puts a crimp in my budget.

happycamper happycamper
Sep '16

Unless I missed something Mango is at $167,500.00 From Hackettstown and $78,000.00 from Great Meadows for a total of $245,500.00 making him #5 on the list.

The Man The Man
Sep '16

No you missed something. This is a shared service agreement, the numbers are incorrect as posted. Lets go back and look at the contracts that are available on line (and always have been). So to avoid any confusion I will try to clarify:

State mandated salary cap for a district our size is $ 157,500. There is an additional allowance for shared superintendents as directed by the State of an additional $10,000 Hence, total for our district size plus Great Meadows is $167,500.

The shared service agreement is held by Hackettstown which is responsible for the benefits and is a 60/40 split with GM. So just the salary cost to H'town is $ 100,500 and for GM $ 67,000.

Lets look at a few things here- 1) Having a shared position saves each district considerable amount of money as in the past each sup. cost $195K and $120K respectfully. 2) Shared services is the best way to keep articulation through the district as this is also done with director of curriculum ; director of special services and facilities. Again cost savings for each position for both districts plus the benefit of buying leverage etc.

For those who question merit goals i will gladly address those as well. There is merit criteria established by a shared service committee of both GM and Hackettstown and set goals are also established for each district. Goals are max 3% of salary for that district. Goals must be established and voted by each full board and also APPROVED by the county superintendent.

Each goal may not be accomplished hence, no payment or possibly of a partial payment this also must be again approved by the county superintendent and voted by the full board as achieved.

Our district was well in the forefront of shared services, something that other districts have followed our model with. It is something that townships; recreation departments and counties should be looking into. I would not want to speculate why they don't- I leave that to others to discuss.

I hope this gives a better understanding, it has all been documented in various budget hearings; strategic planning and meetings. All of this information including contracts can be found on the district website.

As usual please call or e mail if you need anything else, BOE meeting Wed 9-21-16 7 pm please attend!

thanks

Gus Bordi Gus Bordi
Sep '16

So, two jobs replaced by one. A lot of goldbricking in the past...


Is that 3% of each goal set? and if so how many goals has Mango reached?

The Man The Man
Sep '16

After a little research I found that the goals are set by the board ( which they are not mandated to do) many districts are set at 5 but not all are on the (gold rush) goal system. This means that a super with a $167,500 salary can make up to $25,125 more bringing the total up to $192,625.00

After speaking to my wife we feel if we watch our spending we could get by on that salary.

The Man The Man
Sep '16

Just realized I forgot to pay property tax due May 1. Bill says 10 day grace period, then 8% on 1st $1500 and 18% over $1500. Is that an annually accrued fine --- meaning when I pay tomorrow it's just a few dollars, or are they going to charge me an outright 8% of my tax bill (which would be over $100)

happiest girl
May '17

8% from the 1st, not from the 10th, and not 8% of the quarterly amount.


The Man, how many private sector jobs pay nearly 200k in Warren County? Yes, education pays little...


Gus with all do respect your "merit goals" are a joke.

This was a "merit goal" that the board just approved paying at the May meeting:

Exhibit A
By the conclusion of the 2016-2017 school year, the Superintendent will present the Board of Education a plan to create a Hackettstown High School Athletic Hall of Fame. [2.5% merit pay achievement ($4,187.50).

really you made the creation of a Hall of Fame a goal? Was that really a benefit to the school district that you are paying Mango $4187.50 bonus for coming up with? That lack of respect to the taxpayers money is why you all need to go. You create bs goals to give this man more $ while we are $600k in the hole and cutting teachers and programs. Stop being a puppet to the pinky ring and do your job.

njlawyer njlawyer
May '17

this was one of his "merit goals" from last year:

Exhibit B
By the conclusion of the 2015-2016 school year and in conjunction with the Hackettstown Strategic Plan District Goal III, the Superintendent’s office will receive a rating of “excellent” on a plan for improved communication with post Hackettstown High School graduates. [2.5% merit pay achievement ($4,187.50)]

what a joke.. where is this plan for improved communication? and who scored it "excellent"?

njlawyer njlawyer
May '17

Gotta keep that bar low for performance goals I guess lol. I honestly think this is how they bake a bonus into an government contract - it's not like they can tie it to profitability or something tangible like measurable KPIs - they make up low hanging targets.

skippy skippy
May '17

Where is btownguy? What does a Superintendent do? Well... not much if a merit increase is given to create a an athletic hall of fame LOL...


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