Proposed Drug Rehab facility in Allamuchy

FYI
There is a proposal for a variance going before Allamuchy Land Use Board on 3/24 at 7:30 for a rehab facility to be built at 25 Rutherfurd Road, adjacent to Panther Valley.

Mom of 1&1 Mom of 1&1
Mar '16

With the heroin epidemic in NJ (and the entire country), this is a much needed source of help for those suffering from addiction. I know too many who have died from this disease. I hope it passes!

Joyce Joyce
Mar '16

Sounds like a great idea. Those with addictions need help.
Mom of 2

judy
Mar '16

We sure seem to need it - and more............

4catmom 4catmom
Mar '16

Where is this proposal listed? Was it heard at a township meeting or just heard?


I was asked to share the information and this is the best place that I know to encourage dialogue. I plan to attend the meeting before solidifying my opinion for or against. The legal notice of the hearing was forwarded to members of one of the town social clubs by their president, but the Land Use Board website is not up to date.

Mom of 1&1 Mom of 1&1
Mar '16

I just went to the Allamuchy Website and didn't find anything either but until I actually see or confirm the legal notice I can't comment. Last I checked, legal notices are public information so I don't get the whole secrecy of passing it to some unnamed social club. Sounds very behind-the-scenes.


Sounds like a good idea. Any idea who would be running it?

justintime justintime
Mar '16

Re: Proposed Drug Rehab facility in Allamuchy

This is a screen shot of the legal notice.

Mom of 1&1 Mom of 1&1
Mar '16

Thanks for the notice! Sounds like a residential recovery center, given the cottages. Sounds like a good idea.


Interesting that ARS is a relatively new company based in Florida and they find that Allamuchy NJ is a location worthy of this kind of business. I wonder if they plan on attracting folks from more eastern cities, where the problem is much more severe than here in rural Warren county, due to the close proximity with Rt 80.

No matter, I think more accessible treatment facilities can only help.

justintime justintime
Mar '16

Justintime has his head in the sand..there is a big drug problem in hackettstown and Warren county

BillyTom
Mar '16

Drug problems transcend all counties in New Jersey, some of the wealthiest ones as well.


It's a big problem in Warren county and has been for quite some time. Recorded the 20/20 on Friday night, but haven't watched it yet, maybe tonight. Did anyone watch it? I think some of it is on Kutztown.

Bessie Bessie
Mar '16

BillyTom...you are so right! Within the past 6 months I've heard of 4 young adults not far from Hackettstown who died from overdoses and I wouldn't be surprised if there were more.

Joyce Joyce
Mar '16

Big is relative. Bigger the farther east you go, or is that an incorrect statement?

justintime justintime
Mar '16

I'll have to find the link, but I recently read that Pennsylvania leads the way in Heroin overdoes per capita, mostly centered around Pittsburgh, Philly and Scranton.

There is also a rather large problem in the Tri-NJ-County area of Morris, Sussex and Warren. Larger than people would think.

I did notice that the notice mentions not only substance abuse treatment, but also chronic eating disorder treatment. Both are problems important in our society and I believe they feel that "getting them (the patients) away" from their normal environment into a supportive open "fresh air" type facility with "cottages" is the way to go. I truly hope so, for the sake of these tormented individuals!

Phil D. Phil D.
Mar '16

Couldn't agree more Phil.


Going by mapquest this shows the house that looks over Panther Valley which was listed awhile back in the 7 figure plus range. Is this the correct location?

D-ManPV D-ManPV
Mar '16

Yes, that's the spot.

Mom of 1&1 Mom of 1&1
Mar '16

Yes sadly drugs are a very big problem in warren morris county, Im thinking our more mature town folk dont realize what a big issue it is because of not having kids in school, but drug use is not the only issue with addiction crimes to obtane money. So it does impack the whole community, its a start in the right direction.

mom of two boys mom of two boys
Mar '16

^ Thanks. That house was last listed in August 2015 for $4 million.

Interesting that this would be deemed a good property for rehab to take place - seems a bit on the pricy side.

D-ManPV D-ManPV
Mar '16

This would be so great. There are not many around anymore and especially if it has an eating disorder unit. Many alcoholics/addicts have a hard time finding places to get help, mainly due to location and of course insurance. This will help so many that want to change their lives around. Hope it passes..

La Vita La Vita
Mar '16

I am sure the prices will reflect the property costs. I would imagine it will serve Bergen county and NY clients


I've seen many more billboards and heard an increase in radio advertising for addiction rehab facilities. TV commercials, too. Finally positive campaigns to encourage people to get people the help they need with professionals, many who are in recovery themselves.


amazing idea!!! hopefully it will save many lives!


BillyTom-
Just in time raises a good point.
A rehab in Allamuchy will be open to ANYone. Often, addicts go through treatment/rehab Many times.IF it's built, it will be 100 percent filled. They WILL fill it with people from all over NJ.
Pop into 'The Straight and Narrow' in Patterson before you say, "Yes."
Addicts,relapse /leave. And when they walk off, they will be heading right into your neighborhood. They will steal anything, from your jewelry to your kid's Wi, or your mom's Bose, and pawn it in Hackettstown for drugs.
Do I sound cynical? My lovely niece is from Warren County, and she has, been through 7 of these places in 5 years. Stole $ from us, And helped us look for it! Yikes!
I am sad that so many young people are ODing. We need the wall (Trump) and we need to stop the Heroin that flows in through cargo ports in Newark and Bayonne.

Plusgirl Plusgirl
Mar '16

That's not what I was alluding to plusgirl. I only meant to point out that the location of this facility didn't mean that our local problem is necessarily huge (I get that some think it is) but that it is situated to be able to handle cases from the entire north east part of the state.

I disagree with the premise of your post.

justintime justintime
Mar '16

Based on the address and property price, I doubt many local residents will benefit from this facility, unless there are significant charitable donations. Rehab for 3+ weeks at hundreds of dollars a day is hard for working families to afford. Obamacare would probably steer you to a less expensive option, if it covers rehab.

https://vimeo.com/77721060


Ha Staight and Narrow is in the HEART of Heroin distribution. Folks there may get out and walk down the street, but to cop. Folks here, if they decide to walk out are going to head to PATERSON,,,,

littlelu littlelu
Mar '16

And there it is! The politics and stereotyping have begun (even though I'm guilty of that, too!)

Addicts are everywhere and are people, too, when their diseases aren't at play.

Your neighbor could be a recovering addict. His or her neighbor could be an addict in relapse.

Let's look at ourselves before judging.

And now, some food for thought from the "liberal" media: http://www.nj.com/news/index.ssf/2015/07/nj_heroin_overdose_death_rate_is_triple_the_soarin.html


Plusgirl,

If everyone had your narrow minded attitude your "lovely niece" would likely be dead by now from an overdose.

Actually, with that attitude, I doubt you even care about your niece, except as a talking point to use to make the point that these people should be written off by society as worthless. After all, isn't that the point you're really making -- that society shouldn't waste it's time trying to help people trapped in a horrible situation?

JerryG JerryG
Mar '16

You think they are going to Paterson. Think again.

CraftBeerBob CraftBeerBob
Mar '16

How is a wall going to stop cargo ships from going into Newark and Bayonne ports? Sorry I know it's stupid to let logic get in the way o a crazy rant

Darwin Darwin
Mar '16

I think what Plusgirl was saying is that a huge amount of drugs are being transported through our southern border. I didn't take it as a racist comment.


http://www.northjersey.com/news/special-report-in-heroin-s-grip-1.1271593

4catmom 4catmom
Mar '16

I agree. We absolutely need Trump's wall to keep out Plusgirl's hardened criminal family. Hope she doesn't get caught on the wrong side of the wall when it's being built.

emaxxman emaxxman
Mar '16

Has anyone ever lived in a town out side a major city that was deemed country setting to help with rehabilitation of drug addicts. If not I suggest you look at the "influx" problems outside the city of Philadelphia. Unfortunately a lot of addicts don't make it and wind up staying in the area where the rehab center is because they have no money to go home. I don't want Hackettstown to suffer from an "influx" problem.

CraftBeerBob CraftBeerBob
Mar '16

Attended another funeral for a young man who I watched grow up here in Hackettstown. Played basketball with my son and while not perfect he was a good and decent man, father of a young child and beloved by many. Third person I know from a single graduating class from HHS who has succumbed to Heroin. Three young men, who never made it to 30 from a single class in HHS, one from Liberty, one from Independence and one from Town and in talking to my kids, there are several folks they know who have overdosed but no died yet.

If you think its not a problem here, you are wrong. There is a need for a facility of course no one wants it in their backyard, but keep in mind your child and his or her friends are going to need a place like this. So the drugs are in your backyard and maybe in your home already.

Agust Agust
Mar '16

I am impressed HL! We had almost a whole day of enlightened, caring and supportive comments.... This problem is everywhere, and help is sparse.. any move toward improving that is a good thing

pmnsk pmnsk
Mar '16

Here's a story related to what CraftBeerBob is referring to... it's over 25 years old. I wonder what has happened there since 1990.

http://articles.philly.com/1990-08-27/news/25933464_1_influx-people-addicts-drug-dealers

ianimal ianimal
Mar '16

LOL pmnsk, but I agree there too.

So far, we have no clue how many of the "guests" are going to be there that are dealing with chemical dependence and how many will be there for eating disorders or i imagine in some cases, perhaps both reasons. A million dollar grant from the Feds. was just funneled back to New Jersey in the form of grants to treat heroin addiction, as per a news article I read yesterday. That was split between three major centers, none of which I believe was in the area.

I realize that many do not wish "this kind of thing" in their backyards, but the problems are already here, so why can't part of the solutions be here as well. I mean where you you otherwise have them locate such a facility, another county, another part of the state, such as in the Pinelands, or just ship them to another state to try to get their "problems fixed"?

Perhaps we should send all the druggies to the country where the product they're hooked on comes from, like send the heroin abusers to Afghanistan and the Coke abusers to Columbia and the pot heads to Mexico (of the National park in the Smokies - lol). After all, that's where it comes from, right, let them deal with it.

Obviously that was said tongue planted firmly in cheek. The problem starts here and should end here. If there was no demand, there wouldn't be a supply as it wouldn't be economically feasible to make what there's no market for. Let's be a part of the solution!

Phil D. Phil D.
Mar '16

I would like to see an addiction center in Allamuchy,.maybe the kids that keep breaking into the house on Fifth street to do crack and heroin on a continuum can get help.

pampurr pampurr
Mar '16

There seems to be a stereotype that all addicts are uneducated riff-raff from poor communities but that is farther from the truth.

Addiction often begins in one's medicine cabinet and teens and elders have easy access through their homes/caregivers. It has been documented that prescription medicines are the gateway drugs to heroin:

http://www.nj.com/hunterdon-county-democrat/index.ssf/201409

Many police departments and pharmacies offer anonymous drop-boxes to discard unused prescription medications to make your home safer.

And as for country/rural rehab centers, Mendham Township, one of the wealthiest counties in the state for has a teen residential rehab facility.


Took a walk up that driveway to that house since I was always intrigued with what was up there - looks like it used to be a B&B or something....


Luca - did you look at the real estate ad? more like a near mansion - nothing like a b &b

4catmom 4catmom
Mar '16

Yes I saw the ad - place has a large parking lot with a dumpster you would see at a store. Looks like it was a B&B or something like that - was just curious of the history......


Keep in mind, with people having nowhere to go, halfway houses will be popping up in residential neighborhoods to house the people who have left the rehab.

neighborhood watcher
Mar '16

I am a Panther Valley resident and am against this in our neighborhood. I do agree that these facilities are necessary but I do not think this is the proper location. I believe these locations need to be in remove locations where it is not easy for the residents to leave. I know Allamuchy doesn't have a lot going for it but there is easy access into NYC via the bus in Panther Valley and to Newark via the train in Hackettstown. It will not help the problem in our town since so much of the issue is environmental. It will just increase the demand for drugs in our town. People in town who go to this facility will still have easy access to their supply. Those who come from out of town will still be looking to get what they need.

A lot of individuals who go to rehab facilities do not go on their own accord and it takes multiple trips for those who do recover. I personally know a few people who have had to go through rehab - some with success some without. The biggest thing that they all have in common is that their drug of choice takes over their life and they will do whatever they need to do to get it. They have no regard for anyone or anything. They will steal what they need to support their habit. This is harmful to the safety of everyone - our businesses and children included. We are finally at a point where there are more businesses moving into Hackettstown and I would hate to see any of them fail because of the effects of these individuals. As neighborhood watcher said the individuals who complete these programs will need somewhere to go. Putting them in a town with an already high drug problem does not seem like an ideal situation for anyone involved.

And yes, I will be at the town meeting to voice my concerns.

Melissa817 Melissa817
Mar '16

That property was built as a mansion, was sold to Prudential as a corporate getaway, then purchased as a country retreat by a NYC gentleman. When he died, his wife sold it to her child for a $1. The son tried to develop it into 5 acre McMansions. (See planning board minutes.) Then the Great Recession hit. This plan is the newest attempt to profit from this 30 acre property that extends to Cat Swamp Road. The problem is the property is not zoned for this type of use.

observer3 observer3
Mar '16

So according to Melissa, "nimby" not in my backyard." I, too, live in PV and do not agree. There's a bubble mentality behind these gates that keeps minds small.

I believe rehabs are locked facilities and that should an addict unfortunately relapse they are unlikely to stick around the place that was supposed to help them and instead return to where their drug of choice is abundant.

The other aspect to consider is job creation!


Melissa817

I really don't follow your reasoning. Of course it's not the "proper location", because it's in your neighborhood. Normally treatment facilities are monitored and have security depending on the level needed to ensure those most "at risk" are unable to leave.

By all means you should voice your concerns at the meeting AFTER you give the plan a fair listen to see what security measures are in place to see that the clients are not going to put themselves, fellow clients and/or the general public at risk.

By the way, you left out the people wth chronic eating disorders. There IS a junk food filled 7-11 just down the block and then OMG M&M!!! There could be ravaging hoards of people looking to steal the cheeseburger out of your mouth or off your plate, only to purge it later.

OK, now YES, I am somewhat making light of what negative things you and some others have to say, but that doesn't mean I don't take your concerns seriously, because I do. That said however, I think things shouldn't be blown out of proportion.

IF, the people asking for the variance do NOT properly explain the type of clients they will be assisting AND what security measures they will have in place BEFORE the first "at risk" client is housed there, then by all means the variance should be voted down until they bring an acceptable plan to the table.

If the plan itself is sound, and is according to accepted practice, both in the treatments themselves and security, etc. then there shouldn't be an issue with it and it should be allowed to pass.

Phil D. Phil D.
Mar '16

++++++100 Phil D.


If you have had the unfortunate experience to visit a rehab center, you would understand the security and safety methods utilized. I believe we need to add centers anywhere and everywhere, until we have a better handle on the addiction epidemic that plagues us. As a PV resident, I'm all for it.

RosieG RosieG
Mar '16

From my experince most that go to a 30 day nice private rehab which im sure this will be for the most part return home to their familys. And if you happen to read the police blotters from other towns, state police a large percentage found with large quantitys of drugs and cash are of a mature age, bringing it back to htown and surronding areas for sale. In todays economy it is a way to make a living, think about it young kids dont have the resorses to travel to paterson, newark. The dealers are not all young kids,they are the petty small time addict dealers,a large number of adults go to the dr. mostly medicade get large amounts of xanax,oxy then sell it,via the younger crowd scarey but the truth .

mom of two boys mom of two boys
Mar '16

Of course most people would not want this in their backyard. Why would you? It has been stated many times on this forum that this is a "family town" and I think most would like to try to keep it that way. Drugs are everywhere and there is a problem in our area as well. As stated above there are very few in rehab that go willingly. It is typically forced either by the court or an ultimatum given by family, friends, job, etc...therefore many will continue to seek out whatever their drug of choice is. Saying that there will be security and locked doors is somewhat laughable. Where there is a will there is always a way to get what you want or their case what they feel they need. People in jail behind locked bars still get drugs so I'm pretty sure that the people in rehab can/will do the same. As far as the halfway houses, there are a couple in the area. I know of one in independence and its not the best selling point when the neighbors on the street want to put their house on the market.


"Saying that there will be security and locked doors is somewhat laughable." So in essence, besides stating both that and that people in rehab are usually not there of their own free will, then why have rehab facilities at all, anywhere?

Yep, we don't want them because nobody wants to go to them, unless forced, you can't control what goes on there at all and it will bring drugs and druggies into the community and make all our populace into drug abusers. While we're at it, let's also just forget about those who've hit rock bottom and want help, because while in rehab their minds will only be swayed by the people that are fellow abusers, rather than be guided by the people that wish to aid them in getting and staying clean.


Oh wait, what if this facility is upscale and caters to the likes of film and music stars and we just may be about to see them and delight and gloat in the knowledge of how well they've given into temptation as well as how far they've fallen. Yes look, they're so much worse a human than I am. Maybe I can get a selfie with a celeb as they stop by 7-11 for a Slurpee or get a shot of how crappy they look in rehab and sell it to the tabloids to make money off their pain.

Maybe that would be acceptable and it would be a good reason to have it there. After all, famous peeps in the hood, a'ight! All for it!

Why don't those that are SO concerned about what this facility IS or ISN'T going to be in their "backyard", whether that means virtually next door, or 5 miles+ down the road, attend the meeting and find out what the complete plan is actually going to be before going Loony Tunes over it.

By the way, my apologies to anyone suffering a chronic eating disorder (as some of my friends and acquaintances in the past have been) when I over exaggerated in my last post above. I did not and do not EVER intend to make light of a very serious problem. I was only using it as a tool with which to make a sarcastic point about people's fears. I sincerely hope that nobody was hurt by that comment.

The fact is people are also forgetting that this is meant to be a treatment facility for chronic eating disorders also, and knowing some of the issues involved, many of them don't wish to be in a facility either, because to them (and there is a wide spectrum of disorders and complications involved) many believe that they have no problem, except that they are somehow not quite "perfect" yet and that they're being forced against their will to become even less perfect by gaining weight and perhaps losing sight of that thigh gap or their hip bones don't protrude as much as they were starting to.

That description doesn't include the other end of that spectrum where people continue to eat, whether due to hormonal or psychological "comforting" or various other reasons.

Again, I really think the whole program should be looked at before being so quick to judge. That site is secluded enough, yet close to a medical center which is critical when choosing siting. You can't easily put a center such as this in the middle of nowhere. There has to be an available medical center and police assistance close enough if and when it may be needed. To do otherwise would be completely irresponsible of the people who administer the center.

Perhaps getting acquainted with the website for a company with the same name which I admit I am guessing is the applicant in question "Advanced Recovery Syatems, L.L.C." would help:

https://www.advancedrecoverysystems.com/overview/

Obviously, I don't know for sure if these people are attempting to expand their facilities and open a branch here, or if it is another company using the same name. If their goals and approach are the same, then perhaps peoples fears will be somewhat abated. Again, the answers would likely be available at the meeting, unless people are that involved that they feel a need to contact the lawyers for the applicant.

Phil D. Phil D.
Mar '16

As a PV resident, I have some concerns and would like to know more about the proposed facility before jumping to conclusions which is why I will be attending not only the Town meeting regarding this but also our own regular HOA meeting the night before to see if there is any information being offered there. I encourage others to do the same.

I think that everyone is entitled to their own opinions on the subject matter and should be able to voice them here whether or not they are in line with other posters without being judged and having others jump all over them. Both sides to this situation have valid points. One of my concerns is that the town of Allamuchy does not have its own Police Department, Should an emergency situation arise it would require a response from the State Police coming from either Hope or Netcong barracks which COULD be a significant response time, not sure that is a good thing for any type of treatment facility that may need immediate help for whatever reason.

JrzyGirl88 JrzyGirl88
Mar '16

"One of my concerns is that the town of Allamuchy does not have its own Police Department, Should an emergency situation arise it would require a response from the State Police coming from either Hope or Netcong barracks which COULD be a significant response time, not sure that is a good thing for any type of treatment facility that may need immediate help for whatever reason.
JrzyGirl88 "

Good point JrzyGirl88. I have no idea what the potential for violence is, but that's a great question to have answered. My gut tells me that a facility like this would be pretty benign, but people who've run these before should certainly be aware of the potential for needing police assistance.

justintime justintime
Mar '16

Drug addiction is a huge problem. I have been to several funerals for people under 40 in recent years. Very sad.

It could be your neighbor, friend, or family member. Wouldn't you want them to be able to get help?

There is a place like this "close to your backyard" in Blairstown that has been around for over 50+ years and you don't hear any issues with it - in fact, I'm sure many have not even heard of it. Alina Lodge.

Hopeful Hopeful
Mar '16

Exactly hopeful. That's why they put it in Blairstown. Maybe they should expand since greater Hackettstown feels a need for more.

CraftBeerBob CraftBeerBob
Mar '16

Pampurr, there will be MANY more on 5th, and 6th, and 7th... Craftman has it right.
We Want to help addicts, but Heroin is a "customer for life" drug. Miss my niece.
It's like the person we knew grew a split personality, - an evil twin.
I do care. Wish our politicians did.
How about putting drug sniffing dogs in our ports?
And on Main Street?
I have attended TOO many local funerals.
And what can we do?
Maybe have something for non-athletic adolescents to do in Hackettstown?

Plusgirl Plusgirl
Mar '16

you all realize that you already have 2 IOP (intensive outpatient facilities) for drug treatment in hackettstown that have been up and running for some time now? these are the people that get to go home every night then come back the next day...an inpatient center will be far more "secure" then those places however no one is held against their will at inpatient facilities
so to assume there will be security to keep "those most at risk from attempting to leave" just will not happen..they will leave and only return when they are good and ready

H-town Mama H-town Mama
Mar '16

Lol wouldn't make a bit of difference to be if they were celebrities or not Phil. The point is people are not the same once drugs have a hold on them and will do whatever it takes to get the next fix. H- town mama is correct these places are not secure and if a person wants to leave they will. Drugs are a choice and if people are stupid enough to do it then I guess they are willing to deal with the consequences. There are a few that truly do want help, but many in these programs are only doing it because they have to. As a matter of fact, I just had a conversation with an addict not long ago that is currently in an outpatient program. Their exact words to me were " I'm only doing this program until I get through everything" "I think I can handle just doing socially" and " my job required it if I wanted to keep it" which is how many think unfortunately.
It is also unfair to compare drug addiction to an eating disorder. Completely different and it's obvious why peole would voice concerns about one and not the other.


Speak of the devil.

http://www.dailyrecord.com/story/news/2016/03/15/hackettstown-man-charged-heroin-distribution/81828214/

pampurr pampurr
Mar '16

So people believe a drug problem is here but they don't want a solution to the drug problem to be here? Ok got it. That clearly makes sense.

Darwin Darwin
Mar '16

We do not need any more drug addicts around here. Who will accept resonsibility when one or two decide to leave rehap and get a fix, but stop and go in to someone's home to take their propert or worse. Any idiot who wants this should invite a few users to their own home first. It is not an approved use for that zone. SAY NO !!

Zacman Zacman
Mar '16

The people that think it is swell , naturally do not live in close proximaty to this proposed madness. I watched 3 cousins steal cheat and lie from their own families before dying. It aint pretty. Put them in a remote location. There is NO benefit to Allamuchy. Property values will decrease, and there is a school within walking distance. Remember they are addicts.

Zacman Zacman
Mar '16

Pickney was busted last year in town as a dealer and he is still walking the streets.

He was released without bond on this one too.

Maybe he can sell more to our kids.

Really MOPD????????


The biggest issue is that this is a small facility. I personally do not feel smaller locations have the resources to deal with serious drug users. The increased cost of security and monitoring is not feasible as an expense when there are so few residents.

Like I said, I have a lot of experience with this as I have had friends and family members go though numerous treatment centers throughout the country. Those who went to smaller facilities were not successful.

Melissa817 Melissa817
Mar '16

Rehab vs Walmart.,,hmmm


If I were a PV resident, I wouldn't worry at all. The gate house will stop any unwanted persons from entering, right? ;)

eperot eperot
Mar '16

eperot -

As a PV resident, the gate house is not security. By car, even after the current road construction is done, all you need is a valid address and say that you are making a delivery to get the gate opened, and anyone on foot can get through any time. Not worried about escaped addicts. Personal protection works anywhere. Declining property values, that's another story.

DannyC DannyC
Mar '16

Don't forget that the unmanned Bank of America ATM and Colonial Manor are right across the street. I can't imagine the residents and their families are happy about the rehab center. Colonial Manor is a perfect target for those wishing to fund their drug habit - lots of old people to rob and lots of prescription drugs in the facility ripe for the taking. The problem with addiction is it's hard to get the monkey off your back, regardless of good intentions.

observer3 observer3
Mar '16

Are you kidding observer3? Those residents do not go to the bank there or to a bank by themselves. Drugs? Yeah heart pills are a sought after drug!! The pharmacy has more drugs then Colonial Manor. Yes I know!! Know 80% of the residents and the other 20% are homebound!

I think a lot of you guys are just looking for an excuse to NIMBY! We already have an outpatient center in town and those businesses are not effected. Especially the drug store right there.

WE NEED this! Most of the time residents are not the one in the center in their hometown. They like to put addicts away from their contacts and family etc. Studies show that they are better off away from their hometowns.

I welcome this facility!! If they want they can put it right next to me!!

Christine Christine
Mar '16

I totally agree, Christine!

4catmom 4catmom
Mar '16

+100000, Christine!!!

sparksjbc1964 sparksjbc1964
Mar '16

I agree there is a major drug problem in the area, as in many other areas. I wouldn't be so quick to just say "yes" to this proposed facility. We have to look at the whole picture, that including those that may escape, not having been rehabbed, now looking to break in to nearby homes, with the hope of finding their substance or money to buy it. Not to mention this is only going to have a major negative impact on home values in the surrounding areas.

You may not be so apt to vote for it if it is going to be in your backyard.

Soccermom54 Soccermom54
Mar '16

I wonder how the residents in Lafayette feel about Sunrise house. It would be interesting to see how many residents are even effected by it?

littlelu littlelu
Mar '16

The court system is very broken as you stated many that have been arrested time and time again are out on bail right back to dealing. The laws need to be tougher on the major dealers. And as far as the out patient treatment in town it is a joke, ask anyone who has known someone who went there you get better contacts, they just bill the hell out of your insurance,that place needs to be looked into biggest scam going .And yes Christine you nailed it .

momof2boys momof2boys
Mar '16

Maybe we should get rid of the hospital too -- after all, some of those patients might be infectious. They might seek to escape and come breathe or cough on the people in the neighborhood!

JerryG JerryG
Mar '16

Reminder for residents there is a PVPOA board meeting tomorrow and a town meeting Thursday. These would be two places to get necessary information regarding the proposed facility.

JrzyGirl88 JrzyGirl88
Mar '16

Something tells me that a majority of the people who will be attending the meetings already have their mind made up before hearing all the facts.

As a "nonsnobby" resident of PV who knows people who have been in and out of rehab, I support this.

This is definitely a case of NIMBY.

We have addicts in our neighborhood. Everyone does. Heck, I was robbed a few summers ago by a PV resident who never got help, only jail and to be released and repeat offend.


You should have helped him with a bullet to the head :)

Zoning laws exist for a reason folks. Just look at the Poconos and the crap going on over there where there is bad zoning. Buy land and build a nice home and nothing to stop a gas station from getting built next door.

I don't see this variance as a positive thing for the area and I sure would not one within walking distance of my home. Let them build it in the Poconos...


Update on Land Use....
Meeting rescheduled to allow for change of venue due to more than capacity crowd.

New date: April 28 at 7:30
Location: Allamuchy Township School, 20 Johnsonburg Road

Mom of 1&1 Mom of 1&1
Mar '16

Meeting rescheduled to 4/28, 7:30pm at the Allamuchy Elementary school. Too many people came to tonight's meeting.

PVRES PVRES
Mar '16

The township will not post or advertise the date of the new meeting, so please inform any neighbors or friends that may have interest in attending the April 28th meeting.

BrandyB BrandyB
Mar '16

It's really great that there was such a strong turnout!


Any ideas how we can get the word out about this proposed drug rehab facility in our back yard, very few Panther Valley residents know?

GOLDFINCH GOLDFINCH
Mar '16

Try calling Panther Valley office and have it posted on the bulletin board at the entrance. 908.852.8400.


Put signs up outside back and front gates.

Nature Lover Nature Lover
Mar '16

Is the purpose of a gated community to insulate people from the problems of the real world?

JerryG JerryG
Mar '16

I think all the facts need to be known. If this facility were to back up to my property, I would certainly want to know more, what is the harm in that. It is not a matter of insulating people to the problems of the world at all, just a right to know what is going on in the area we live our lives.

Nature Lover Nature Lover
Mar '16

Knowing the facts is most important.

Larry M Darst Larry M Darst
Mar '16

Notice of the meeting has been posted on the bulletin board at the PV gate.

Mom of 1&1 Mom of 1&1
Mar '16

There go the property values! It's great to announce it on the front board for all potential buyers to see!

PVpropertyowner PVpropertyowner
Mar '16

In the last 25 years, the number of addiction treatment facilities in the United States has tripled to over 14,000, and the annual revenue generated by the addiction treatment industry has tripled to over $35 billion. Yet, drug overdose death rates have also tripled. Drug overdose death rates are now the leading cause of injury deaths in the United States—surpassing motor vehicle accidents.

Why allow a failing addiction treatment program to be set-up anywhere.... is the question.

The people driving the growth of rehab centers are venture capitalists, they do not care about curing the illness. They care about a five year ROI.

Larry M Darst Larry M Darst
Mar '16

Especially in PV right next to the senior citizens!!

PVpropertyowner PVpropertyowner
Mar '16

I'm not seeing the big issue here. A rehab...and not just for drugs...in a serene and peaceful setting to give people a second chance...more importantly...a controlled enviornment. Better that then a PV neighbor getting arrested for possession (I've seen this) or smoking weed and catching the house and attached properties on fire. This just happened in mount olive. I can guarantee Its not the people IN the rehab you will need to worry about....

Lives in PV Lives in PV
Mar '16

Not a great advertisement when you are selling your home.

PVpropertyowner PVpropertyowner
Mar '16

Almost all residential treatment programs in the United States are 12 Step based, so their effectiveness will depend entirely on whether 12 Step programs work and the statistics for AA are not good. It is helpful for 5‒10% and that’s a good thing. That’s 5‒10% of people who are being helped by A.A. ‒ it’s a lot better than zero percent ‒ but it shouldn’t be thought of as the standard of treatment because it fails for most people ‒ for the vast majority of people. Lance Dodes, MD ‒ Addiction Expert & Author ‒ Harvard Medical School Graduate

These rehab centers are being developed by investors solely interested in money. Appearing to care for people is part of their plan.

Larry M Darst Larry M Darst
Mar '16

Sounds like investors want to move into our area solely to make money while devaluing our properties and putting a strain on our township. They look for inexpensive pieces of land that they can advertise as having a "resort type" of atmosphere. What happens to the property and buildings they put up once the project fails? Will be interesting to hear their pitch on how this will be good for Allamuchy Township.

BrandyB BrandyB
Mar '16

"They look for inexpensive pieces of land that they can advertise as having a "resort type" of atmosphere. What happens to the property and buildings they put up once the project fails? Will be interesting to hear their pitch on how this will be good for Allamuchy Township."

inexpensive? I believe the cost to purchase the property was north of $3million. And I am not seeing how this would be a strain our your township. From the initial estimates it is suppose to bring in $250k in tax dollars to your town.

Darwin Darwin
Mar '16

"In the last 25 years, the number of addiction treatment facilities in the United States has tripled to over 14,000, and the annual revenue generated by the addiction treatment industry has tripled to over $35 billion. Yet, drug overdose death rates have also tripled. Drug overdose death rates are now the leading cause of injury deaths in the United States—surpassing motor vehicle accidents."

I'm not getting your point. How do you know that those drug overdose deaths went thru a rehab program? Heck a lot of drug overdose deaths happen during their first time doing the drug. Whose to say the death numbers wouldn't be much much higher if it weren't for rehab centers?

according to a 2012 report there is a 40-60% chance of drug relapse after attending a rehab center. Which that also means there is a 60-40% success rate. Even if you use the mean, that's a 50/50 chance your love one will kick the drug. I think most family members dealing with an addictive love one would sign up for those odds when deciding whether or not to check them in to rehab.

https://www.drugabuse.gov/publications/principles-drug-addiction-treatment-research-based-guide-third-edition/frequently-asked-questions/how-effective-drug-addiction-treatment

Darwin Darwin
Mar '16

"These rehab centers are being developed by investors solely interested in money. Appearing to care for people is part of their plan."

They sound an awful lot like hospitals. Or pretty much any commercial enterprise. The only thing that varies is the "service" they happen to be selling.

ianimal ianimal
Mar '16

Good point about hospitals and I agree. Please note hospitals are regulated by state and federal guidelines. The rehabilitation centers still operate under 1930s practices with minimal over site of the government.

The main goal of the rehab centers is exploration of personal fears and hope of saving a loved one. For me, a one in twenty chance of being cured isn't science.

As stated before, getting the facts is most important.

Larry M Darst Larry M Darst
Mar '16

Larry first it would be helpful if you listed the link to the article you mentioned. Here it is for those interested.

http://www.forbes.com/sites/danmunro/2015/04/27/inside-the-35-billion-addiction-treatment-industry/#5fd469e367fd

Second, the Doctor you quoted was talking about Alcoholism and the 12 step program for treating that. it was about the AA program. I don't see him relating it to drug addiction clinic/ rehab centers. I'm not sure how much facts I got out of reading that article.

Darwin Darwin
Mar '16

some people on hear are sickening do we help are fellow human being's hell no my property values might go down because we all know $$$$$ is more important then another human being

oldred
Mar '16

I just read the article. This article was addressing "addiction treatment" not just The AA Program. The doctor is stating that most treatment programs are based on the AA 12 step program.

"The vast majority of addiction treatment is based either partially or entirely on the 12 Steps of Alcoholics Anonymous (AA)".

The fact that this industry is not regulated, similar to Hospitals, is scary.

Briniging 250K into the Twp is nothing compared to the burden, devaluation and potential risk we are facing. All information available on the web.

All IMO. Looking forward to the meeting and the sales pitch.

BrandyB BrandyB
Mar '16

"The fact that this industry is not regulated, similar to Hospitals, is scary."

If this were true, it would be very odd... especially in the State of New Jersey, where you can't even cut hair without a license. However, it's not... drug and alcohol counselors are regulated under the purview of the State Board of Marriage and Family Therapy Examiners.

http://www.njconsumeraffairs.gov/regulations/chapter-34c-alcohol-and-drug-counselors.pdf

ianimal ianimal
Mar '16

Again I ask "what risk"? Is it really about property value or is it ignorance about addicts running wild? Would much rather have them getting help than living next to me doing drugs. Do your research and understand how many HHS grads have died in the past few years due to addiction.

Lives in PV Lives in PV
Mar '16

if anyone is interested in learning more about the address and current estate this proposed rehab center wants to go, I found this. Pretty good aerial and internal video of the estate and the property. those addicts would have to wonder through the wood a long way to get to PV :)

honestly I can't even imagine most residents would even know its there. Heck how many know this street let alone this estate is even there?

https://plus.google.com/107512925538136090650/posts/coDqMXzSBQT

"What happens to the property and buildings they put up once the project fails?'

From the looks of their other locations and after seeing the above video I don't think they will be do much building. Probably just redo some of the rooms in the existing mansion.

Darwin Darwin
Mar '16

They plan to start with building 8 - 5600 square foot buildings. The main house would be used as their administrative facility. They are obviously not trying to purchase 160 acres to redo some rooms in the mansion.

BrandyB BrandyB
Mar '16

Thank you ianimal you beat me to it! Hospitals are not there to help people either! They are there to make money. Now these organizations are buying up hospitals and making profits and still do not pay taxes. These are lives they play with! Atlantic Healthcare System is just one of them. They have been charged with a lot of fraud.

Build the rehab facility. IMO

Christine Christine
Mar '16

exactly...no one will even know the place is there. It's not like they are building a hospital on the golf course.

Lives in PV Lives in PV
Mar '16

I'm sure the LLC would not have paid millions for the property if they did not think they would be approved-the township wants the revenue-just saying to hell with PV.

PVpropertyowner PVpropertyowner
Mar '16

How do you know that the property has been sold to Advanced Recovery Systems? I believe it is still owned by Allamuchy Land Development, who bought it for a $1. From Realtor.com's history, 25 Rutherfurd Road has been on the market since 2013 and was delisted (not sold) last August. I bet no sale will occur until the zoning board approves a variance as the property in not zoned for commercial use.
Also, Christine, Atlantic Healthcare system just paid Morristown 15.5 million in a tax settlement. http://www.nj.com/morris/index.ssf/2015/11/atlantic_health_to_pay_morristown_155m_to_settle_t.html
By the way, most hospitals are non-profit, and I have nothing for praise for the life saving work the hospital performs on a daily basis.

observer3 observer3
Mar '16

Being "into" real estate much more than a primary home I can offer some areas to consider:

1) Buffer area between facility and homes
2) How many patients can it hold?
3) How much movement per day (employees, patients). Do/can patients go in/out on a daily basis like a halfway house? *** This is a Top issue ***
4) Taxes paid
5) Security of facilities
6) Environmental impact? Will it be hooked into sewers, if not septic -- are town wells nearby. Runoff from the extra buildings how will it be managed?
7) Design, will they build nicely like, for example, lodges at Yellowstone?

"Development" is primarily for the developer. Looking at this property it is very high end for the area, and at the top of a mountain. It appears that it was to be chopped out for McMansions but that price point is not achievable now...


All good points to consider IJay.

JrzyGirl88 JrzyGirl88
Mar '16

All good discussion: please tell everyone you know in PV about the new date and time. We need a great turnout to learn the facts and be heard.

goldfinch goldfinch
Apr '16

Sign our petition:
http://www.ipetitions.com/petition/no-rezone-for-rehab


www.facebook.com/allamuchyrar/

Larry M Darst Larry M Darst
Apr '16

A lot of people are talking about this now. I am glad the word is getting out to the Allamuchy residents.

BrandyB BrandyB
Apr '16

Like I said before, I wonder how the town of Lafayette has been affected by Sunrise House?

I know it's been there a long time.

littlelu littlelu
Apr '16

A very dear friend of my son's passed away a few days ago. He has been struggling with heroin addiction for 20 years. Been arrested, been through rehab, just got out of jail just a few days prior. If there was a clinic set up, to give him the exact dosage he needed to just get some comfort and a clean needle, he would still be alive. This young man I've known since he was little. He was smart, trying to start a business, but couldn't shake the addiction. If the clinic were available:
A) He would still be alive.
B)No more needles lying around (just saw one by the river, behind Walgreens).
C)Crime drops... no need to steal anymore.
D) A whole new generation of addicts would be cut WAY down, as there's no need to deal, to get a shot.
E) Much less expensive than prison @40k per year or unsuccessful rehab @35k per month.
D) Education... starting in the fifth grade. They need to see REAL side effects of withdrawals via TV screen. Not just charts, display of narcotics and a lecture.
Like Darwin said "rehab centers have tripled "... equals $$$ for investors. Prisons, to, are privatized and %90 of the inmates are for drugs... some very minor. Obviously "the war on drugs " is a 30 year old scam, which is a proven failure, because they go about it all the wrong ways. Now it's turned into the war on seniors who legitimately need certain pain mediations, but the paper work and too much scrutiny (yes, should be monitored and controlled... to a point.) The latter is getting ridiculous for healthcare professionals.
How come, with all the wars about religion, politics, oil, territory, etc., the ONLY thing that we globally agree on is keeping drugs, marijuana included,(feds override states) illegal? Can any one say "cartel"? They have more money than most countries and the last thing they want (along with investors into prisons and rehab centers), is for any drugs to be legal or treatment handled properly and free (cost way less than prison, free lawyers, tying up the courts, etc.)
Don't buy into propaganda. Think outside the box. Think about the domino effect, depending were we go from here.
What a shame. What a loss. And prison just made it worse.
R.I.P. our dear JB..our family will miss you. Prayers sent to his mom, to.

sparksjbc1964 sparksjbc1964
Apr '16

People think about their property values first. Thinking outside the box comes after this...


From what I know the Sunrise house has a great reputation...I think the town is just fine. I don't hear much from a crime related sense from there.

Lives in PV Lives in PV
Apr '16

I just checked out the property on Google Maps. Nice property, quite large. It is a problem for a number of homes in PV that are adjacent to it. Looks like they might build 400 feet from these properties. This will definitely reduce the values of these properties. If I lived in any of them I would go the the meetings and voice my disapproval. The other problem based upon the topography in Google maps is that it would be above these properties, this makes it even worse...


There are many better locations to put something like this in the area. See you all on the 28th.

PV Lawyer PV Lawyer
Apr '16

If this is a state or county run program...run. Run now...living in NYC and having one set up down the block was horrifying. If this is a private facility that does not accept money from the state a different story. But still not wanted. We have kids and families in this neighborhood. Has anyone here truly seen or dealt with an addict. Most as forced to go..and the amount of times they relapse is insane. They will have people from all walks of life in our neighborhood. Is that why we live here? So they can put a drug facility in our neighborhood with our children. We worked so hard to preserve the school system and the programs and raise our children safely. This is not what we want for our community. I will have my house up for sale before you can say Remax. I am not feeling sorry for anyone...this will destroy Allamuchy. Destroy....think twice before you agree to something you have not seen personally. You are opening a can of worms. These type of places need to be next to prisons where the security is at its highest. Not in Allamuchy NJ. Put the facility adjecent to the warren county prison. This is absolutely pathetic. I may sound absolutely horrible saying this..but you chose to take the drug you chose to use it for whatever excuse you feel necessary...you will then make an excuse why you did something to get that drug...what excuse will we be given when things go wrong...it won't be the success story in the news of how many addicts were saved. It will be that horrible story...and then what. Who is sorry going to save. We do not have the security or the protection as they do in a big city.

Suzan Classen Suzan Classen
Apr '16

Then you folks better get involved. Lawyers are on the side of rezoning and will do their best to get the rezoning to occur unless enough opposition is brought together to stop it.


We need to have a strong attendance to the meeting on April 28th for the rezoning meeting at 7:30 pm. Please join us at the Allamuchy School, on Johnsonburg Rd to voice your opinion.

www.allamuchyrar.com

Sign our petition:
http://www.ipetitions.com/petition/no-rezone-for-rehab


www.facebook.com/allamuchyrar/

Larry M Darst Larry M Darst
Apr '16

iJay, Susan Classen, PV Lawyer, Larry M Darst et al - You are doing the right things for the PV community. I'll be there to voice an opinion against the proposed drug facility, no matter who owns and runs it. Good luck recruiting many more people to oppose this venture. Please contact me via PM if I can help in any way.

DannyC DannyC
Apr '16

I think some people here are being a tad dramatic....this is not going to be a state run Greystone type place. Relax...

Lives in PV Lives in PV
Apr '16

Lives in PV - Do you want drug addicts looking down on your family and property, possibly sizing things up for when they get out to support their habits? Not that they would not already be smuggling in junk. A place like this actually attracts illegal drugs, since it is a good market for them.

DannyC DannyC
Apr '16

"I think some people here are being a tad dramatic....this is not going to be a state run Greystone type place. Relax..."

So wait let me get this straight.. WE are supposed to not be dramatic and relax about a drug Rehab being built in our community, that could possibly affect the quality of life here in our development and yet you posted 6 times regarding the Panther Valley Crime Scene thread, stalking the involved parties social media account, for a ONE TIME Domestic Situation that put no other parties lives in jeopardy per the Warren County Prosecutors Office (on day one no less). Priceless..

JrzyGirl88 JrzyGirl88
Apr '16

Zoning exists for a reason. Allamuchy is a farm and residential community and needs to stay that way. It's beautiful piece of property that is for sale. It needs to stay residential.

We need to have as many people as possible at the April 28th Meeting. Here is a good website for info: allamuchyRAR.com. People took the time to put a lot of pertinent material together.

GreenBean GreenBean
Apr '16

If any of you ever needed help with drug rehap you would understand the need for this. These people need help. They are not looking to rob you. Please have a kind heart..

mom of 2
Apr '16

+100 mom of 2. You'd think they were erecting San Quentin here. There is so much of a bubble mentality here in PV. I said this about 80 posts ago: I was robbed by a PV resident who was an addict. Second time out of jail, no rehab. So there you have it. Drug addicts live among us, even behind the gates of PV.


@mom of 2 - I don't think anyone is questioning the need for rehab facilities.

There is nothing wrong with thinking about the challenges associated with these facilities and the impact to you as a resident including your family, home values and community. There are thousands of places within NJ where this facility can be built without the need for zoning variances or impact to a pretty small and condensed community. I'm really not sure why anyone would want to support/encourage a zoning variance since I think a lot of this area is now overbuilt and losing it's rural charm by the day.


So long as it's not sold to a non-profit and they build or upgrade on the property, a variance will increase the tax valuation. People who want to collect more taxes on the property would vote for that.


This is not about PV or what type of people are living inside or outside of your gate. Yes, PV is close to this property but there are many of us who live in Allamuchy who moved here because it is zoned farm and residential. There are many areas zoned commercial that are vacant in NJ that would do well with a facility that can help these poor addicts. Why use a beautiful piece of land to construct a commercial facility? These facilities are not put up to service local residents. These companies find a nice and cheap piece of land so they can advertise that you come to their facility to get help and feel like you are on vacation. I am all for patients getting the help they need if they cannot cure their self inflicted issues on their own. However, residents of a treatment center do not need a beautiful farm and residential environment in order to get cured.

The land needs to stay residential. Remember, the meeting is about changing the zoning of the land to allow for a commercial structure. This is the big issue. We do not want Allamuchy turning into a commercial community. If this one passes, what is next?

GreenBean GreenBean
Apr '16

Some of you think they are going to build warehouse type building. This design will be more of a retreat style setting. The additional buildingd will be large residential homes. It will look no different then a retirement community with the main mansion being the administration building and the surrounding building being for housing.

Darwin Darwin
Apr '16

Very well said GreenBean.


Darwin -

So it might pass the scrutiny of the PVOA's architectural board. What about the occupants? Not permanent retirees, temporary addicts/patients.

DannyC DannyC
Apr '16

This who live nearby, fight for your rights. This is not me, but I will share a story loosely related. During the real estate boom I purchased an empty lot to put a modular on. The owner bought a double lot in the 1960s and never built on the extra lot. Now, it was zoned for a single family with the normal setbacks. The adjacent neighbor complained that he lived next to an empty lot for decades. I had to limit the height to an average of his and the sellers home. The sellers home was a normal 2 story but the neighbor was a cape cod and that made it difficult for me to build a normal house. Plus, he asked for double the setback on his side. Rather than fight it and draw it out we agreed and I built and made money. Point is that I couldn't even build to the zoning on the books.

Now, in this case, they want to build way beyond the zoning on the books. Fight it, don't stay quiet because once to gets rezoned, that's it. And once it is rezoned commercial who know what can happen next...


iJay -

I understand the position taken against rezoning, but I think it is too weak and may fail. The proposal is for a drug rehab next to and above a gated residential area, which must be opposed on the grounds that it threatens the safety and security of the community, while alternative sites without the need for rezoning are available elsewhere. Rehabs are ineffective in curing addiction, and often invite more crime to the area. Most of the residents are there against their will, only doing their time, usually imposed by court order in lieu of jail. Rehabs are only appropriate very far from residential areas. Fight this rezoning all the way, but fight to win.

DannyC DannyC
Apr '16

the point I'm making is I have lived in Panther Valley for years and had addicts as neighbors. I have seen many kids I went to school with who LIVED in Panther valley get caught up in drugs....lives ruined...jail...horrible. It's the people who are not in treatment you have to worry about. These places have ZERO tolerance...you will never now that they are there...let's remember this is for eating disorders as well. And thanks for stalking my posts JerzyGirl...but yes I find a HOMICIDE pretty disturbing....this is a townhome community...what if the bullets flew outside or through a door? Much more disturbing then a bunch of people trying to get thier lives back on track....

Lives in PV Lives in PV
Apr '16

It is my understanding that these places take only people with insurance. They cost about $30k for a 30 day stay. Not sure they are taking in court ordered people in lieu of jail. Most of those people go to outpatient centers which can be done during the day or after work. Just my understanding from someone I know who has knowledge of these situations.

kb2755 kb2755
Apr '16

From another exclusive in-patient rehab facility here in Warren County Alina Lodge taken directly from their website...

Costs
The fee for rehabilitation therapy, including Room and Board is $415 per day. On admission we require a non-refundable deposit equal to 30 days of treatment ($12,450), plus a deposit for incidental expenses ($250). The total deposit required is $12,700. Medical, psychiatric and pharmacy charges are not included in the daily rate for addiction treatment services and are invoiced as necessary.

While we can work with your insurance carrier and/or employer to maximize the use of available benefits, it is important to note that most insurance policies DO NOT offer coverage for long-term treatment.

http://www.alinalodge.org/treatment-recovery/admissions.html

JrzyGirl88 JrzyGirl88
Apr '16

Kb stop using facts they are not wanted. Don't you know there will be zombie like drug addicts a few feet away from OUR CHILDREN!!!

Darwin Darwin
Apr '16

Hey, those last stats are good. That means those real addicts won't be able to stay. Maybe we can turn it into something good! Might get a pic or 2 or a semi celeb! /s
Honestly get off your high horseys and let some good be done.

That's a good thing
Apr '16

I don't believe the argument is weak. The only value for the rezoning is additional tax revenue. This alone is not enough, for example, who wants to live next to a bus depot or 12 lane gas station? The rezoning should be an asset to the town or be transparent. I don't see this facility as either. Whomever lives adjacent to this property -- speak now or forever hold your peace. You back up to woods now and if this goes through large 5600SF rehab buildings. Your property values will drop significantly and PV as a whole to a lesser extent.

Like I always criticize the Poconos, do you want that type of poor zoning?


Just an observation. I am not sure the Rehab Center is going to enjoy the Gun Range on the weekends. These two properties will be next to each other.

Larry M Darst Larry M Darst
Apr '16

IJay according to the research the drop in property values can be astonishing depending on what type of drugs are being treated.. Very troublesome for a property owners. Lives in PV, your so funny, simple counting of your posts is not stalking, now if you were trying to find my Instagram account.. that would be stalking..

JrzyGirl88 JrzyGirl88
Apr '16

So, you guys need to be out in force. BTW, I don't put any public official beyond taking a bribe. No accusations, just stating the landscape we live in...


Does anyone know how many people might be attending the event on this Thursday at the Allamuchy school? I was wondering how many cars will be able to park at the school.

Larry M Darst Larry M Darst
Apr '16

What that place should be purchased for is by the town of Allamuchy so that they can use the space to provide more services (like its own high school and post office and potentially use some land for other conservation or state services--hello grant money) for the exorbitant amount of taxes residents pay because every service has to be farmed out to other nearby towns. For the school especially, Allamuchy is growing and the number of kids will soon be too big to piggyback into Hackettstown (not to mention, sorry to offend anyone here, but Allamuchy k-8 is great and a lot of Allamuchy residents resent that it then becomes Hackettstown High). If the town used that land to invest into restructuring itself, it might actually pay off long term financially because so much money is being wasted now (tax rates are double that of towns that offer 10x the services and resources in return).

As an additional note, the exit 19 ramp and also the middle of Hackettstown already can't support the growth in the area, I don't know that it can handle the comings and goings of 45,000 sq ft of commercial space (landscapers, cleaners, administrative workers, therapists, doctors, maintenance people, etc etc... The addicts might have longerterm stays but the people who run it will come and go every so-and-so hours and it takes a lot of people to keep 45,000 sq ft of building and 160 acres running as a treatment facility!!)

Anonymous
Apr '16

So you want the town which is already at what $13million in debt to purchases a multi million dollar mansion and property only to knock it down and build a school there? Yea that should really lower your taxes. Seems to me Allamuchy should look for ways to bring in $ not ways to add to its growing debt.

Darwin Darwin
Apr '16

Everything is relative. If they build that facility property values across Allamuchy decline which equals loss of tax dollars and school funding. The facility then also causes increased town cost and burden on town services and infrastructure. Even if they pay 300,000 per year in taxes on the facility, it's not going to make up for the amount the facility will cost the town (that's only $300 per year avg tax loss for a value drop on 1,000 properties). The argument that it will bring in money for the town is short sighted.

Anonymous
Apr '16

Over 150 posts and I know much about the scourge of heroin but little about the plans...... Turns out this facility will be for eating disorders and substance abuse. Is the heroin argument a red herring because you don't want to appear non-PC fighting against the fat?

So how about some facts. First the buildings are cottages for clients. Not hardly a prison for heroin addicts. http://www.lehighvalleylive.com/warren-county/index.ssf/2016/03/rehab_facility_for_addiction_e.html

Second, Advanced Recovery Systems, in this type of facility, seems to cater to a clientele unlike represented in most of the posts so far: "We provide affordable luxury and recovery in a setting where lasting health and peace of mind are the goals." https://www.advancedrecoverysystems.com/about/

Somehow portraying this as inner-city heroin zombies coming to rape the white women might fall short of success. I can see an argument about zoning changes from residential to business but given the green space buffer they will undoubtedly offer, good luck turning down a ratable to spite your face.

I can't find any stories at the other ARS sites of evil-doing; their consumer ratings are generally high as are their prices. Think it's about $10,000 for 30-days; average stay is 90-days. And their claim is "affordable luxury" which is code for "this ain't that place in Malibu but it's pretty nice." Given the plans, the business model guaranties that this will remain upscale, the green buffer promise (might be done via zoning), I am guessing you could fare much worse than some cottages deep in the woods where you never see anyone or anything.

While reviews are pretty good, there are definitely some pissed off addicts. Mostly about wanting better food. You have just got to read the comments here. The most prevalent bad news is often that ARS is not luxury enough especially for $30 grand. http://www.rehabs.com/listings/the-recovery-village-3598867305/

Good luck on your fight folks, but if your arguments are like those on this thread, I think you are talking about another facility.

strangerdanger strangerdanger
Apr '16

SD, get your head out of the sand. I know you're Mr PC around here so I'm wondering why you're bolstering your argument for the facility by pointing out that it's "luxury." As if the kids of rich people are somehow "better" addicts then those from inner cities.

I have a friend who had all the advantages in life. She got hooked on heroin. Her father is a surgeon and paid for her to go to a club med style luxury facility. It didn't help. She was arrested breaking into cars with an NBC executive's son. Their facility was also for eating disorders but she told me there were only a handful of fatties. The VAST majority were heroin addict children of rich people.

I vote no to the facility. Luxury doesn't matter. That is only to make the parents feel better about sending their child away.

Blazin
Apr '16

Using 1 local media article and promotional websites as support is hardly "Facts".

Anonymous
Apr '16

Anonymous the facts are

1) this is going to be a high end rehab. not a state run facility
2) the new buildings will be "eight 5,600-square-foot cottages", not industrial warehouses styles. With the mansion staying.


As someone mentioned above there is a extremely similar rehab "resort" in Lafayette.

http://sunrisehouse.com/facility/
it's on 22 acres, this one is on 161 acres?

Using Google Maps the layout looks almost identical to this layout with a residential development adjacent:

https://www.google.com/maps/place/37+Sunset+Inn+Rd,+Lafayette+Township,+NJ+07848/@41.0811074,-74.6876478,1781m/data=!3m1!1e3!4m2!3m1!1s0x89c36dd11f5f4cc1:0xa80a4538b9060a46

going on Zillow to see how the adjacent homes have sold. The one directly behind the facility just sold in Feb '16 for $545K.

http://www.zillow.com/homes/for_sale/39943258_zpid/any_days/globalrelevanceex_sort/41.081359,-74.674434,41.079596,-74.679295_rect/17_zm/

looking at the crime rate in Lafayette it is listed as "one of the lowest in the nation" so I guess those zombie addicts aren't robbing and raping the locals.

http://www.neighborhoodscout.com/nj/lafayette/


again the notion of a rehab resort being build nearby is a lot scarier than the reality

darwin darwin
Apr '16

Actually they are definitely facts but apparently not enough for you which is fair enough. Point was there are 4 other ARS facilities operating and so far I can find no evil escape or other stories; the facilities average about $30K a stay so not exactly for the indigent, and they are specifying building a number of cottages. Given the floor space per cottage, I doubt these are single occupancy.

The other point was that these "facts" were a heck of a lot more spot on than all the stereotypical addict branding that went on above like:

"Addicts,relapse /leave. And when they walk off, they will be heading right into your neighborhood. They will steal anything, from your jewelry to your kid's Wi, or your mom's Bose, and pawn it in Hackettstown for drugs."

"Do I sound cynical? My lovely niece is from Warren County, and she has, been through 7 of these places in 5 years." OK, that's $210,000. Darned ObamaCare...:>)

This kind of stuff seems to have little to do with the type of facility ARS is looking to build.

I was not indicating right or wrong, if I had a say it would be NIMBY, but if you are looking to defeat it, waving the zombie addict flag probably won't go far at $30,000 a stay and, from what I can find, their track record for escapes robbing and murdering the neighborhood of which I can find none. Second, I am not sure that alternatives might not be worse. So, if IMBY I might stress the zoning change period as the problem, not the facility for which it be changed, as the issue. Ultimately a victory means the alternative future would more likely be Panther Value or similar development.

I would also focus on what you might GET if there is a zoning change like buffer space, limitations on beds allowed, etc. To me, a small number of expensive beds surrounded by a hundred acres of green might be preferable to 160 acres of Panther Valley townhouses full of "those types of people" (kidding except for the clustering).

Lastly I was just trying to show there are facts out there rather than arguing the general state of drug abuse in America or what happened to someone's cousin. General drug abuse statistics and anecdotal evidence probably won't mean much. Might be better off researching this company and like company's to find problems specific to them. Just saying.

strangerdanger strangerdanger
Apr '16

Darwin consider this our version of the Bergen Tool Project. All you were getting was some apartments and a CVS no big deal right..

JrzyGirl88 JrzyGirl88
Apr '16

Also Sunrise has been open for over 30years. With Heroin being the #1 treated drug there. I looked for news about escaped addicts robbing the neighborhood but in 30 years I cant seem to find one.


http://www.njherald.com/story/23751420/rehab-center-celebrates-30-years-of-success#

darwin darwin
Apr '16

Informative reviews about the facility with a very common trend. Last I checked Lafayette is also a lot more spread out and it would take you more than 5 minutes to get to a town center.

"This was a prison. They did not listen to the patients, they told you what you needed to do. It was a total brainwashing and scared straight type of institution. After a week I had to leave, most of the people in here are there because of court order. You could get drugs from other patients (I am not into drugs my problem was booze) but I saw many deals go down. Sex took place also, even though it isn't supposed to. Theft is a big issue because they house way too many people at once...."

"This place is a prison without all the security and "fun". A lot of positive reviews probably because illegal drugs were sold by patients to patients...."

http://citehealth.com/rehab-centers/new-jersey/cities/lafayette/sunrise-house-foundation-inc


Darwin consider this our version of the Bergen Tool Project. All you were getting was some apartments and a CVS no big deal right..

not even close to being the same. People who were/are against the Bergen tool site were mainly against it for the following reasons
1)traffic
2) flooding
3) impact on schools

none of those are PVs concerns. their main concerns are property value and zombie addicts attacking your children and robbing you at the ATM

not to mention that the Bergen tool site is right on main st not tucked in the woods where you will never see it.

so no the comparison doesn't hold up

darwin darwin
Apr '16

good job bonv reading the 1st review. did you happen to read the rest of them? seems like most of the reviews were good, except for those complaining about the cost. But again patient reviews are not what the PVs are worried about. Still can't find any reports of addicts escaping the grounds and harming the locals. Maybe someone should actually ask a local if they even know it is there

darwin darwin
Apr '16

The CVS comparison does hold up. Why would you not want residents to be able to get their needed medications? Wasn't that land already zoned for commercial use?

A good website for concerns of the Allamuchy residents is allamuchyrar.com. It's not all about property values. It's safety, the burden on the entire system and a total change in the direction of Allamuchy township. There is a lot of data that supports the fact that addiction programs and centers have a high failure rate. This is about change in zoning and what would be next for our farm and residential community. The amount of taxes generated from this project is heavily out weighted by the burden on the township. Why support this short term boost for an investment group,only to have it fail in the future? If we wanted a combination of residential and commercial type neighborhood, we would move to a neighborhood closer to the city.

Here is the website - allamuchyrar.com

Find an already established commercial property and have at it ARS.

We need as many folks to come out to the April 28th meeting as possible to voice your opinions.

GreenBean GreenBean
Apr '16

@Darwin, the 1st review I posted was actually the 4th review on the website so to answer your question yes I read all of them.


Hey Darwin,

Actually traffic is a concern on Rutherfurd Road - the entrance to the property, which is why there is a dangerous intersection sign at the corner.

observer3 observer3
Apr '16

Sorry Bonv when I clicked on your link it was the first review

Darwin Darwin
Apr '16

Sorry greenbean you are grasping at straws with the Bergen comparison. 1) they are plenty of places for people to get their meds in htown including across from the Bergen lot. 2) most of us were not against CVS going in. 3) those against CVS stated there wasn't a need for another pharmacy in town

Darwin Darwin
Apr '16

WRNJ event about this topic this Wednesday 04-27-2016


4.27.16 Newline - Special

Our News Director, Joyce Estey will take an hour from 10-11am to look at Advanced Recovery Systems’ proposed plan and the varying opinions about it. We’ll begin with a brief pre-recorded summery of the plan, from Allamuchy Engineer Paul Sterbenz. Studio Guests will be from the group calling themselves Allamuchy Residents Against Rezoning Mike Smith and Larry Darst, from Family Guidance of Warren County Bill Stover, will address substance abuse treatment and Mary Jo Harris will speak to rehabilitative needs. Also joining us will be recently retired president of the United Way of Warren County Sarah Brelvi and Advanced Recovery Systems Chief Legal Officer Stewart . Call-ins are welcome 908 852 1234

This is a good event for people to offer their opinions.

Larry M Darst Larry M Darst
Apr '16

Spot on Darwin! +100

The begen tool site, for those of you who don;t already know, has for years served as a catch area when that low area of town receives heavy water. They raised the site 4+ feet with the addition of CVS, and are widening our residential street to fit their commercial needs. Also, the CVS is about 200 feet from my house, if that and is now my view every time I walk out my door. So to compare it is utterly ridiculous.

My problem with CVS was flooding and driving existing small businesses out of town

The remainder of the property which is to become 66 town homes and 42 apartments, along with more retail, I have concerns about traffic, flooding, and supporting infrastructure.

I highly doubt you are going to see a traffic issue from a rehab center.

And no, the bergen tool site was original zoned for industrial use, not retail.

SO I have a question, out of all the people who are against this rehab center, how many of you would be okay with it if it were to be put in a different town?

Definition of NIMBY fyi

Darrin Darrin
Apr '16

Reminder PVPOA boarding meeting for Residents of Panther Valley tonite at 7pm

JrzyGirl88 JrzyGirl88
Apr '16

Don't we have a topic about Darrin CVS woes already.....Can we get back to the current topic...

CraftBeerBob CraftBeerBob
Apr '16

http://www.lehighvalleylive.com/warren-county/index.ssf/2016/04/4_concerns_residents_have_abou.html#incart_river_home

well done
Apr '16

"Last I checked Lafayette is also a lot more spread out and it would take you more than 5 minutes to get to a town center. "

Huh? Why does that matter? These residents would need to go into a town in order to commit a robbery? Sunrise is in a neighborhood with plenty of houses within walking distance....


I have no problem with NIMBY, it is in another town to me but it's your house, you can do what you want to....

I agree that the issue here should not be the rehab center, that's a red herring to attack and you will lose IMHO. The concept of " Allamuchy Residents Against Rezoning " sounds great. What greenbean said: "This is about change in zoning and what would be next for our farm and residential community" is the point (although good luck in factually proving the rest of that paragraph). That's what's wrong here. And that's good enough to just say no to a zoning change. It's not what they want to change it to, it's the fact they want to change it: specifically the zoning for the master plan on 160 acres. There is an agreed-upon master plan, zoning has set, and any major changes should go through the master planning process, not take the shortcut simpler ad hoc variance process. This is a major change, not some small variance. Allamuchy has over 13,140 acres of land (and some water); Panther Valley at about 3,700 acres, represents about 30% of that developed in higher density residential. 160 acres is about 2% of all of the land leftover so I would bet that if you looked at all the residential land left to be developed, 160 acres would at least a 5% question which is a noticeable number and it's probably higher than 10% (good question to ask). If you looked at this decision based on just land still able to be developed, this would be a major change to the master plan. Why even have a master plan if major 10% changes can be made via variance.

Good luck folks.

strangerdanger strangerdanger
Apr '16

again the home directly behind Sunshine that's only border is a thick tree line just sold for $545k in February. Was built in 1997 while Sunrise was already there for $314k and sold in 2016 for $545k. So I would say the property value of that house was not effected by sunrise being behind it. Plus the homeowners lived there for almost 20years so if they were having problems with their home being broken into I would guess they would have tried to move a lot sooner.

http://www.zillow.com/homes/for_sale/39943258_zpid/any_days/globalrelevanceex_sort/41.081359,-74.674434,41.079596,-74.679295_rect/17_zm/

darwin darwin
Apr '16

I will ask again,

out of all the people who are against this rehab center, how many of you would be okay with it if it were to be put in a different town, by some one else's house?

Darrin Darrin
Apr '16

Darrin the answer to your question is every single one of them would be ok if it wasn't NIMBY

darwin darwin
Apr '16

The same amount of people who would be okay if CVS was put in a different town, by some one else's house.

well done
Apr '16

again you are missing the point. no one was angry or really that against CVS going in. No petitions, facebook pages or websites were formed trying to block it, Heck like 5 people came to the initial town meeting to voice their concerns. and their main concern was "is this really needed?"

once the residents realized no one else wanted to move into the site they accepted it and just focused on making sure the development was done properly.


you guys really need to find a new comparison because trying to compare this to the Bergen tool site is really petty.

darwin darwin
Apr '16

Agreed Darwin

A rehab center is well needed in this area, there are two CVS's that I know of that I can get to in under 10 minutes. And about 6 other pharmacies, probably more, I can get to in under 10 minutes.

Where is the closest dedicated rehab center?

Way to help people who are so inclined to get help, shun them because you are afraid it will affect "your town's image"

Darrin Darrin
Apr '16

again the Sunrise resort was built in 1983, A development was built behind it in 1996-97. those homes have doubled in value since then. Also most of them are still the original homeowners so there is not evidence of buyers remorse or high turnover. Which leads me to believe they are not having an issue with the rehab center being so close.

if the homes have flipped owners multiple times over the last 20yrs then yes I would say the rehab was an issue being so close, but the fact that the homeowners have stayed put and the ones that did sell their home, sold it for 2-3x what they paid for it, tells me the rehab center is an non issue.

darwin darwin
Apr '16

not only is it needed, it is estimated to bring in $250k/ year in tax revenue to a tiny town that is somehow $13million in debt.

And it is on its own road so you wouldn't even see it or know it was there.

darwin darwin
Apr '16

For those asking about parking at the meeting, this information was copied and pasted from the Allamuchy Township website:

LAND USE BOARD MEETING - 04/28/2016 - 7:30 P.M. AT THE ALLAMUCHY ELEMENTARY SCHOOL, 20 JOHNSONBURG ROAD, ALLAMUCHY, NJ. - ADVANCED RECOVERY SYSTEMS. THE SCHOOL PARKING LOT MAY ACCOMODATE UP TO 100 CARS FOR PARKING. THERE WILL BE BUS TRANSPORTATION FROM THE ALLAMUCHY TOWNSHIP MUNICIPAL BUILDING, 292 ALPHANO ROAD, ALLAMUCHY, NJ. BEGINNING AT 6:30 P.M. AND WILL RUN UNTIL 7:30 P.M.

Jersey Girl Jersey Girl
Apr '16

So it will bring down taxes?

Lives in PV Lives in PV
Apr '16

Probably not, but paying off the 13 mil of debt may......

Darrin Darrin
Apr '16

Darwin -
Located Nearby the link you posted above - 321 days on Zillow, price recently cut by 20,900 now asking 599,000 (5/4.5) - sold 9/07 @ 993,250
http://www.zillow.com/homes/for_sale/67552941_zpid/any_days/globalrelevanceex_sort/41.086451,-74.668569,41.074498,-74.685177_rect/15_zm/

Also ARS states FOREIGN (non Florida) - limited liability company based in Ft Lauderdale
https://visulate.com/rental/visulate_search.php?CORP_ID=M14000000478

RESEARCH THOROUGHLY

GetReal GetReal
Apr '16

Imho, a rehabilitation facility should not be located in proximity to any residentially zoned area - whether in Allamuchy - or in any other locale. It is not a case of a "not in my town" approach, but rather, a reasonable concern about placing such a facility in a zoned residential area that may be impacted negatively in regard to fire, rescue, and/or police resources, traffic, flooding, safety, etc..

This is an area that has been zoned for residential use only. Residents came to the community with all practical expectations of residential zoning areas staying exactly as residential zoning only. Residents also have paid their hard earned dollars, just as every other homeowner everywhere else does, to purchase and pay mortgages on their homes. The Panther Valley community contains everything from studio living to condos, to townhomes, to single family establishments. Some homes are old, and some are new. Some folks struggle to make ends meet, and some are more fortunate. Many residents have their entire nest eggs tied into their home ownership. Other residents may be upside down on their mortgages and are just making ends meet.

My point is that Allamuchy residents are just regular people, just like everyone else. There is no heartless or unkind motive behind not wanting a drug rehabilitation facility located within a residential area. Plenty of residents would strongly support such a facility in a properly zoned area.

Therefore, speaking respectfully to all, it is not a reasonable potential burden to place on any homeowner, living in any locale, to have to possibly face a substantial decrease in their property value due to such a zoning change as well as have to deal with other possible negative consequences. There are no Powerball winners living in the area (at least not that I know about), so typically residents' homes are what they have of primary financial value. While the spirit of opening such a rehabilitation facility is a good one, it should not have to be situated in a location that could very likely negatively impact others. This is also a for-profit facility looking to purchase acres for sale - having spotted a good bargain - and not a non-profit looking to benefit from donated land. Perhaps all would be better served by ARS looking to obtain some commercial space for their facility.

Charliedog4 Charliedog4
Apr '16

A caller brought up a good point today on the WRNJ call in. Everyone should research why Cigna , a large insurance company , pulled out of Florida due the extreme abuse of insurance fraud that these "for profit" centers are all about. This industry is not regulated and it taking advantage of patients and the affordable care act for their own use.

I am all for drug users getting the help they need but this company and what it stands for is not the way to get help for our area. It's a money making scheme and will fail in the future. Stats show that these centers and treatment programs have a high failure rate.

BrandyB BrandyB
Apr '16

Hasn't Sunrise House and Alina been around for over 30 years. Not sure if they are For Profits but they don't fall into the high failure rate category.

kb2755 kb2755
Apr '16

Get real. Ever hear of the housing crash of 2008-09???

That person bought the house at the peak of the market in 2007 and way overpaid. Anyone who bought their home in 2004-2007 saw their property value drop to below what they paid for regardless where their house is.

Darwin Darwin
Apr '16

Look at that home sale price history. In less than 2 years it's sold for over $200k more l??? And people wonder why we had a housing crash?? Mortgage companies and realtors were pricing these homes way over what the real value was.

Darwin Darwin
Apr '16

Are people honestly saying that homes values are down because of the rehab in Lafeyette? I feel thats a bit of a stretch. If they do decide to build it then maybe we should stop talking about it and no one will know its there...shhhhhh.

Lives in PV Lives in PV
Apr '16

OK question for all of you open minded folks.... You are looking to buy a house. 2 properties are available. Both have the exact same amenities, size, features, etc. one happens to be adjacent to an ARS drug rehab center and one is located in a residential community. Would you really chose the one closest to ARS because the company is doing so much to support drug addicts?

ARS is a company that is proven to be in business to take advantage of drug users and their health insurance, only to turn a profit.

Again, an industry that is not regulated and is taking advantage of the Affordable Care Act , that has driven the surge in unethical and fraudulent activities, expanding access to healthcare and mandatory coverage or substance abuse treatment.

I suggest everyone researches Cigna backing out of Florida as BrandlyB suggests.

So many other businesses are regulated, yet these addiction centers escape regulation because they are classified as residences.

We are all sad about the people we have lost and that are suffering from these self inflicted "sicknesses". It's the agenda of Advanced Recovery Systems that is not ethical and please do no suck into their sales pitch. People suffering from these addictions do not need a beautiful piece of land in a farm and residential community in order to get help. A hospital like setting, similar to any other person with a "sickness" , is very suitable to help these "sick" patients. Cancer patients do not have the choice to recover in a resort like setting. Why should people with addictions get treated differently?

I live in Allamuchy because it is zoned farm and residential. I do not want to have to worry about an addiction center and the burden it would put on our township.

GreenBean GreenBean
Apr '16

Green might want to post some links to those facts.

Facts pls
Apr '16

Of course ARS is in business to turn a profit.

Please tell me what physician is in practice to LOSE money? What dentist, physical therapy center, outpatient surgical center or any other health care practitioner is in business to lose money. Even so-called non-profit hospitals are in business to (at minimum) break even...but they need to make more than they spend in order to invest in new technology and replace worn out capital equipment.

Why shouldn't a rehab facility be in business to turn a profit, too?

JerryG JerryG
Apr '16

Please remember to attend the meeting TONIGHT!

The following info was copied from the township website: "LAND USE BOARD MEETING - 04/28/2016 - 7:30 P.M. AT THE ALLAMUCHY ELEMENTARY SCHOOL, 20 JOHNSONBURG ROAD, ALLAMUCHY, NJ. - ADVANCED RECOVERY SYSTEMS.

THE SCHOOL PARKING LOT MAY ACCOMODATE UP TO 100 CARS FOR PARKING. THERE WILL BE BUS TRANSPORTATION FROM THE ALLAMUCHY TOWNSHIP MUNICIPAL BUILDING, 292 ALPHANO ROAD, ALLAMUCHY, NJ. BEGINNING AT 6:30 P.M. AND WILL RUN UNTIL 7:30 P.M."

Larry M Darst Larry M Darst
Apr '16

GreenBean - I think your earlier posts were right on the money. If ARS can use the property as currently zoned then go at it. No zoning variances should be given - there are thousands of empty properties already zoned as needed across NJ.


House prices went up because many "new" buyers were brought into the market through loose mortgage verification processes. Supply and demand. In this case, demand grew due to the addition of many more "1st time buyers" and home prices went up. Then they went down as we all know...


America First by Trump:

http://www.cnn.com/2016/04/27/politics/donald-trump-foreign-policy-speech/index.html

Israel wants more aid and 83% of Senators agree:

http://www.salon.com/2016/04/25/more_than_80_of_senators_call_for_boosting_exorbitant_u_s_aid_to_israel_bernie_sanders_one_of_17_who_didnt/

Nice that Bernie didn't agree. Help raise awareness and stop this insanity. How can US Taxpayer money be diverted in this fashion? Pure corruption. The President is just a small part of the big picture and whomever wins will have all of this bought and sold clowns still in place in January of 2017...


@GreenBean: Shame on you and your narrow-minded, uneducated views. It must be great live in your bubble and SEEMININGLY not know anyone affected by addiction to stand up and then decide what treatment facilties worthy of.

So tell me: Do you have a background in addiction treatment? Do you know anyone affected?

And to compare treatment centers to cancer treatment? Even more shame on you.

Two totally different animals.


I agree with GreenBean that the zoning issue is enough to say no, no other issues need even arise.

I also agree with GB that all things being equal I would choose the house not next to ARS. However...... given proper treatment of the 160 acre buffer zone not sure all things can be equal and that having a HUGE green space of woods behind my house might not be a plus for value.

I also agree that "ARS is a company" based on profit. Also the ACA and other healthcare changes have benefited the growth in this industry where there is a certain amount of fraud and malfeasance. Not sure that ARS is one of these bad companies or how wide spread it is, but am certain it exits and is growing as this is a growth industry.

In other words, GreenBean has not proven "It's the agenda of Advanced Recovery Systems that is not ethical." Not at all. There is no guilt by association.

Also who is GreenBean or any of us to say "People suffering from these addictions do not need a beautiful piece of land in a farm and residential community in order to get help." That may be your opinion but certainly is not a fact nor the way I would like to go if I needed help. I want Malibu if I can afford it.

"House prices went up because many "new" buyers were brought into the market through loose mortgage verification processes. Supply and demand. In this case, demand grew due to the addition of many more "1st time buyers" and home prices went up. Then they went down as we all know..." Exsqueeze me? How bout "bad loans to stupid people." Did you really need tougher regulations and tougher verification to know not to spend above your means on all-time high prices or to loan money to people who couldn't afford the loan? Stupidity on all sides in the belief that it would continue forever

strangerdanger strangerdanger
Apr '16

I don't know if this was covered already but I am curious to know if people from this area who may not have money or insurance coverage will be able to go to this facility. That is will the owner provide some free or low cost spots for those in need? From this area?

A good day
Apr '16

@Greenbean-When considering housing options I would be more concerned about the high school that Allamuchy students are now being sent.

A school that now has a bad reputation for addiction and addiction related deaths. If something isn't done soon to address this problem IN OUR AREA we will have much more to worry about, home values will go down regardless when parents realize they will be sending children to "heroin high"

Lives in PV Lives in PV
Apr '16

Personally, I don't really care how goes, but if they are looking for rezoning, the big question is going to be "what does the town get out of it?". At the least it sounds like you will get to pay for a traffic light or some other type of active intersection management above and beyond a "dangerous intersection" sign. Odds are you will also get some more business to the shops there. Somebody (independent) should do a study and figure out what the burden will be vs. the benefit. If it doesn't come out in the towns favor, why should they get a variance? Citing the Bergen Tool debacle, I somehow doubt that developer wanted to include an open space park area, but that was a way to skew the burden/benefit to help entice the town to provide relief. This shouldn't be any different...

Brendan Brendan
Apr '16

I think Brendan is spot on. WIFM's like how big can this place get? Can the cottage count, bed count increase dramatically. What protections does the neighborhood have on protecting the buffer zone. Traffic light or necessary traffic/road improvements.

Unless there are no brainer benefits and protections, why change the zoning?

strangerdanger strangerdanger
Apr '16

strangerdanger - Do you live in Allamuchy or Panther Valley? If so, are you attending the meeting tonight?

DannyC DannyC
Apr '16

Probably a septic thing, but if they pay to run sewers then yes, how big can it get...


Bizapedia - There are 7 companies that go by the name Advanced Recovery Systems LLC - locations listed: FL DE CT WV LA TX UT

http://www.bizapedia.com/us/ADVANCED-RECOVERY-SYSTEMS-LLC.html

GetReal GetReal
Apr '16

Lives in PV. Please take your head out of the sand. There is not a high school public or private that is not dealing with the horrific heroin problem that is taking place in Nj and across our country. To think otherwise in my opinion is very naive.

Vicinity Vicinity
Apr '16

Larry M Darst -

Stuck at work until 10 PM tonight, cooking for a big crowd. I doubt there will be any voting on the issue, but as a PV resident, and for what it is worth, my vote is against rezoning to allow ARS to build their drug rehab here.

Sorry to miss this important meeting. Please let me know via pm if there is anything else I can do in the future. Thanks for your efforts.

DannyC DannyC
Apr '16

@getreal: I would trust Advanced Recoverys own web site vs. bizapedia. Research is key: https://www.advancedrecoverysystems.com/centers/

I may go just so I can further aggravate myself with the narrow minded views. Remember your neighbor can be an addict. They are people who deserve help, In the end we are all people despite our demons.


iRun - Your demons alone. Not interested in more demons living next to my property. Back to cooking nutritious food, which you might need.

DannyC DannyC
Apr '16

@DannyC: everyone has demons, is to dumb it down for you, "stuff," "hang ups," "issues." Or if you're that much above having issues, perhaps you can cook up an antidote.


The stigma of drug addiction raises its ugly head. Very evident at this meeting that being uneducated about this subject breeds fear resulting in anger! Its amazing to me how saving lives is not even a thought in the majority of those attending.

speill
Apr '16

So what was the result of the meeting last night, if any?

RosieG RosieG
Apr '16

What happened at last night's meeting? How many people showed up?

observer3 observer3
Apr '16

It was standing room only - in my opinion the applicant's atty and engineer did their best to try to drive us out with repetition - nothing was discussed beyond the site - former plans for 42 homes (that never happened), comparison of that plan with the buildings in the current plan etc............Several were able to question him until the clock chimed at 10:30pm. There will be another 3-4 meetings at a minimum. The land use board meets the 4th Thursday of the month and then next meeting is at 7:30 pm on May 26.
Kudos to the PV Social Group for their organization.................... Just fyi at this point in the process a witness for the developer presents or answers questions from their attorney, the board asks questions, and then members of the public can ask questions - only related to the area of expertise of the witness. Open discussion, presentation of public opinion etc. will not occur until all officials for the developer have presented.
BTW it was very well conducted by the board atty and civility reigned. (Thank goodness)

4catmom 4catmom
Apr '16

4catmom - Did any local media cover the meeting?

DannyC DannyC
Apr '16

First off, I sympathize with those having loved ones suffering with an addiction. I want those struggling with drug abuse to recover. I ask that people please look at the facts before making a judgement (on having a recovery center), in any residential area. The proposed facility will have beds to accommodate 175+ patients. 8 new building (each building will have 20 beds). Along with the existing structure (additional 15 beds). They will have a pool, soccer, basketball court and tennis courts, in the surrounding area. This will allow patients to access all recreational facilities. The concern being that there is a 10-15 min walk (from the road and surrounding homes), to the facility. This is where the real concern lies; The harsh reality is that even with treatment 60% of all drug users relapse. And crime (in many cases), is linked to drug use/users. The patients will not be allowed to bring their own cars. Therefore, this opens the door to drug dealers (occupying the area), to sell to those going through withdrawal.
Do I want those with an addiction to have a place for treatment, ABSOLUTELY. Does it make sense to place such a large treatment facility In any residential area, absolutely NOT!


Yes news 12 covered part and, I'm told by a friend, that there was a good piece on pv and interviews with two ..........I didn't see it -

4catmom 4catmom
Apr '16

4catmom - found it:

http://newjersey.news12.com/news/allamuchy-residents-oppose-building-of-drug-treatment-center-in-panther-valley-section-1.11742555

DannyC DannyC
Apr '16

Next meeting is 5/26 @the school @7:30. Need for people to show up & be ready to ask lots of questions as the meeting last night had the lawyer & engineer from ARS monopolizing a lot of time so residents hardly had time for questions.


the cell phone is the dress shirt breast pocket is not a good look, just saying

other than that, while I disagree with all your points Larry, good job addressing them professionally and clearly.

darwin darwin
Apr '16

You paint a picture of drug dealers hanging out on this property hoping to sell to an addict going through withdrawal. First of all, those going through withdrawal are in a separate and locked down unit, medicated and cared for properly. Secondly, dealers in this area don't have to solicit business. Addicts seek them out, not they other way around. And lastly, rehab is not a free for all. Patients don't come and go as they choose. I don't think you really have to worry about them leaving, breaking into a house to steal, then walking to a pawn shop, then buying drugs, then going back to rehab. Visit a recovery center and you will see how they truly operate.

RosieG RosieG
Apr '16

visiting a recovery center and living next door to one are two totally different things. It's like saying oh living with an addict is not so bad, a guy at work I know is one (not at all the same as actually living with one--ask anyone who has lived with an addict of any kind). The people supporting this with heartstring laments about the need to be kind to addicts are going to be in for quite an eye opener when they realize how naive they were about all the various drawbacks of this project and its effects on Allamuchy.

Anonymous
Apr '16

I have lived with an addict and living next door to one in a recovery center is much different than living next to one who is not in recovery...I have also lived next to two drug addicts in Panther Valley...again not in recovery- so who is to say that they could not have robbed me as well.

Someone was killed on Rutherford road by a panther valley resident, a drug addict, not in treatment.

The argument simply CAN NOT be that we "don't want addicts running around" its not a valid argument. I can understand the arguments of more traffic, intersection issues, sewage etc. but please lets be real here.

What I have an issue with is how will it help the problems in our community. Will Warren county residents get priority? Will they give grants to warren county residents that need treatment but can't afford it. Usually there is an interview process...

Lives in PV Lives in PV
Apr '16

ALL PANTHER VALLEY RESIDENTS must be involved in this very serious DRUG Rehab issue. The property values within Panther Valley will plummet as buyers are not interested in living next to a Drug Center. This is an important issue (Drug rehab) however this location (Allamuchy) is not a good fit for such a drug center for so many reasons. PV Residents please all attend the next meeting being held on Thursday May 26 at 7:30pm be sure to attend. Also be sure to support the neighborhood in every way possible (committees, Facebook, email, meetings) this must be a neighborhood effort starting today.

scooter scooter
Apr '16

Why is it that we have drug-free school zones? Do you not think existing drug addicts would be a higher targeted market for drug pushers? As explained last night this is not a locked down secured facility. And the recreation areas are for the residents. You don't think residents would be take walks around surrounding property? And when asked about security for the facility, they said it would simply be left to staff. I wish it was as simple as many people are painting this to be, it's just not. If it were to house strictly those with eating disorders, I would be 100% for the plan. Personally knowing those that have/had drug addictions, the drugs take over and they become someone capable of anything. Please do your own research on such facilities, relapse rates (especially heroin), crime rates associated with addicts, etc. we won't all agree but we should all be fully informed I'm not trying to scare people but we should not go into an important decision blindly. I understand people want those suffering to get help/treatmentas do I. There are other locations which would be ideal for this type of treatment center (further from residential homes).


LH, your comment summed it up perfectly. "There are other locations which would be ideal for this type of treatment center (further from residential homes)." You want people to get help, as long as it's not near your house. Put it by someone else's house.

Irishresq Irishresq
Apr '16

iRun, RosieG et al -

Do you understand how powerful substance abuse is, especially heroin and opiates? It takes over otherwise good persons' lives completely, turning them into monster criminals. Rehabs don't work, in fact nothing does, except total abstinence, which is difficult to achieve for these lost souls. Our only protection is to keep them as far away as possible, lest they infest our community with even more drug traffic and addicts. JMO.

DannyC DannyC
Apr '16

Let me get this straight, If they build it, Hackettstown will be taken over by escaped junkies. (Junkie apocolpyse) So .... then there's no change at all. LMAO

notconcernedever
Apr '16

"There are other locations which would be ideal for this type of treatment center (further from residential homes)"

Where? Can you name a location?


MB - Everglades, Florida, or any other area where ARS is based.

DannyC DannyC
Apr '16

My husband and I attended the meeting last night. It was a good venue with plenty of seating, etc. We did feel at the end that they are going to try to bore us to death with so much repetition that we will just stop attending the meetings and hopefully this will not happen. We were a bit confused though (and perhaps we should not be), but the property has been sold and has been bought by the Recovery firm? I also agree with some of the comments made above - no mention of security was talked about at all and when a drug has you in it's grips, nothing else matters.

We don't have a personal issue with drugs in the family, but did have a good friend who had a son who is handsome, charming, good conversationalist - all those things, but he got into drugs, has spent time in rehab centers, jail, now in his 30's and just cannot shake his demons. There is so much more at stake than just the rehab center - sewer lines, etc. etc.

I do agree that property values could, and probably will decrease. We applauded the lady, Laura, at the end who said she worked at Grey Stone and that there was plenty of space there.

Spread the word for the next meeting.

Nature Lover Nature Lover
Apr '16

PA. Lots of vacant farmland for sale. And not within walking distance to residential areas.


They are monitored 24 hours a day...What if it was proposed that ARS needed to pay for additional security on the grounds?

Lives in PV Lives in PV
Apr '16

LH add to that plenty of wide open land not near residential in Columbia, Blairstown, Hope if ARS wants to stay in the region; otherwise, plenty of land and defunct buildings already in South Jersey.


Lives in PV - Why make things more complicated with "additional security" from an unknown drug rehab? Do you like living here? If it works, why try to fix it?

DannyC DannyC
Apr '16

Currently to get to the property there is a long driveway right next to the house on the corner of the road (believe it is Rutherford road). Will this be the main access point to the new facility as well?

D-ManPV D-ManPV
Apr '16

I am basically saying...IF the proposal goes through, maybe there is an opportunity to negotiate for additional security

Lives in PV Lives in PV
Apr '16

Kill the whole deal by whatever means possible. Driveways and "security" do not matter. Addict residents do.

DannyC DannyC
Apr '16

The property located at 25 Rutherfurd Road Allamuchy NJ has NOT BEEN SOLD. The property is scheduled to be SOLD on 12/31/2016 and this date has been postponed and moved further out several times. The Drug Center is aware of the MAJOR town issues. ALL ALLAMUCHY RESIDENTS must become involved in this matter and join the town to STOP the DRUG CENTER from purchasing this location.

25 Rutherfurd Rd Allamuchy NJ HAS NOT BEEN SOLD.

Scheduled to be SOLD on 12/31/2016. Residents must get involved to STOP this DRUG CENTER. Next meeting is MAY 26, 2016 at 7:30 PM. ALL TOWN RESIDENTS SHOULD ATTEND.

scooter scooter
Apr '16

scooter - Thanks for the info on breathing room until the end of the year. I promise to make all meetings, starting on May 26.

DannyC DannyC
Apr '16

"Rehabs don't work, in fact nothing does, except total abstinence, which is difficult to achieve for these lost souls. Our only protection is to keep them as far away as possible, lest they infest our community with even more drug traffic and addicts. "


`Danny you absolute lack of knowledge and ignorance makes you sound foolish

1) Rehabs do work for those wanting help. 2) withdrawing from a drug like Heroin cold turkey can be dangerous and even life threatening, that's why rehabs wean them down slowly and then work with then to learn how to live without it. 3) if you had anyone in your life effected by drugs I don't think you would appreciate someone calling you loved one a "lost soul". 4) keep them away? please they are already here, at least eh ones at the rehab are seeking help unlike the junkies we have driving around our street and living in our neighborhoods. 5) AGAIN I will point you to Sunrise Rehab in Lafayette, situated exactly, heck even closer to a upscale housing development and yet not 1 single case of a resident being robbed or attack by a zombie addict that was on the loose.

Try educating yourself more instead of living in fear of something that doesn't exist.

darwin darwin
Apr '16

Kudos to Robert Blank's 'Letter to the Editor' in the current issue of 'The Panther' well stated.

goldfinch goldfinch
Apr '16

Darwin comparing to Lafayette is not the apples to apples comparison you're making it out to be. For one, sunrise was there BEFORE the majority of the residential houses, which means the area was set up to handle a treatment facility first, not adapting a space tight residential community to support a facility. Also, the reviews of sunrise are mixed and not entirely positive. Additionally the entrance road to sunrise is not shared with residential traffic as it would be in Allamuchy, sunrise's entrance road is commercial traffic.

Also for everyone making claims this will help "the drug problem in our community," wake up. This is a $30k per stay private for profit luxury center. There are no state mandated regulations and there will be no "warren county resident" discounts.

Anonymous
Apr '16

Try going to a meeting


anonymous the point is the 2 main concerns Danny and other have is 1) property values dropping and 2) addicts attacking the residents. The sunrise is an example of how neither of those 2 things have happened to those residents. Those are the 2 fears and those fears have not become reality to the development that has been next to a rehab center for the past 20 years.

And I'm sorry but I am not seeing how traffic will be greatly effected by what 40 more cars on the road? split between the day and night shift employees of the rehab center. it's not like there will be cars coming in and out of the facility all day long like in a shopping mall.

darwin darwin
Apr '16

+++100 Darwin. This whole thread exemplifies the stigma that still exist with drug addicts. It's really sad because the ignorant are really lost souls.


If you have not dealt with an addict you have no idea. My sister has been to rehab 10 times in 4 years. The failure rates and relapses are extremely high. She has stolen - from family, from friends, from employers, from coworkers, from anyone and anyplace she could/can to support her habit. It has completely taken over who she is. There are times where she is clean for a few weeks/months but then a switch flips and she becomes another person who will do anything to maintain her habit.

These places are not secure. Residents do leave - very frequently sometimes. With the close proximity to 80 it is almost a guarantee that these residents would be using the easy access to obtain drugs. Keep in mind the majority of people who attend these facilities are not people who want to get clean and live a better life. They are forced by the courts, family, friends, ect to get treatment.

This is NOT the right location. Access is too easy - to get to the location, to get alcohol, to get public transportation (even though it isn't the greatest it exists). The right location needs to be slightly secluded.

Shelby
Apr '16

Water and sewer treatment center burden, run off from the new buildings and lessening of land to absorb rain water because of parking lots basketball courts etc on top of the hill, the road not being a main road equipped to handle new traffic, etc are important concerns not like that of the sunrise situation.

Darwin the reason why those homes by sunrise are not afflicted is because unlike panther Valley residents, those residents and sunrise do not share the same entry and exit points. You and Irun and others are making this about ignorance about drug addicts when in reality it's about the various effects on our community. regardless, the main problem is that the infrastructure cannot handle this facility.

Anonymous
Apr '16

I think the clear as day point here is that the burden, if any, a facility such as this (one that greatly HELPS people in need) puts on the surrounding area, far outweighs traffic and other petty concerns.

Safety is a valid concern, which, if properly brought up, I am sure will be properly assessed and answered. But so far, from what I am seeing, safety seems to be a scapegoat to people who do not want this, as I have not seen a single person post any factual information backing up the thought that addicts entering or leaving a rehab facility will be robbing people on their way in/out....if you had factual info, you would have a stronger point.

Most of us are around addicts probably at some point every single day, and we do not even know it. There is no reason to treat them any differently than someone going to a hospital. Addiction is a sickness, not a catchable disease. At least the people going there will be trying to do the right thing and get the proper help.

Anonymous, you say "the infrastructure cannot handle this facility" Where is your proof to this, or is this based on your judgement? In any project, the town will play a major role in being the one to answer if their infrastructure can handle a particular project. Just remember, infrastructures such as water, sewer, etc, can always be made larger so they can support a project, that is what they did down here by me.

You guys are going to need some much stronger points, backed up by facts, if you plan on trying to stop this project. FUD does not work with towns, as they usually have already done their homework behind the scenes. Sometimes you can find a point they did not explore, but they will explore it and have a answer for you, chances are they will not just give up.

Darrin Darrin
Apr '16

Bottom line is we do not want a Drug Rehab center in our neighborhood. Yes the addicts need to be helped and that is not what this is about as that is common sense. This is about location and this Allamuchy location is the wrong location. This type of facility needs to be located in a rural area and that is not what this location provides. Please stop trying to make those that do not want the facility in Allamuchy as bad people. Many of us have either family or someone which we know who is or has been in this situation so we are fully aware of how important the topic is just not in Allamuchy. Many alternative rural areas to select from. Thank you.

scooter scooter
Apr '16

Anonymous if those are your concerns then ok. Address them at the meeting and see what the proposed solution is. My problem is not with people with those types of concerns. My problem is with foolish people like DannyC who think the end of the world is coming because a rehab is wants to build near his home and just has scare tactics as his reasoning. No facts no proof. Just asinine claims that will never happen.

That is why I will continue to bring up sunrise as it proves all his fears are not reality. For your concerns ok let's here how the plan will address them.

Darwin Darwin
Apr '16

My opinions are based on both professional and nonprofessional experience. The area is zoned residential for a reason and yes the town should be concerned about these things, but my concern is they will see dollar signs and waive valid concerns for the negative impacts of this. Once rezoning is granted, it will change Allamuchy forever (set precedent and take away farm and residential exclusivity).

Interestingly, in all the fighting of different sides, what no one has addressed well enough is how this will benefit Allamuchy. There are many negatives but I do not see any adequate positives.

For those in support of this, I'm curious as to why--what do you expect this to bring?

Anonymous
Apr '16

Darrin also, not to turn the argument back into being about addicts, but to clear up your point "at least people are trying to do the right thing and get help"--sadly no, a lot of these people end up there because they were forced to go (by family, court order, etc, not always because they want to be there).

Anonymous
Apr '16

@scooter "Many alternative rural areas to select from. Thank you."

Where? If your going to make a comment back it up with some ideas

@Anonymous "what no one has addressed well enough is how this will benefit Allamuchy."

I think I remeber $250k in tax revenue thrown out there, what else would you like? If homes were put into the same area would you have more or less traffic, more or less tax revenue? More of less impact to the infrastructure? These are the things you need to be considering and comparing.

My point is, if you guys are going to fight the fight, you will need factual information, and/or alternatives to back your claims up if you want to get anywhere.

Darrin Darrin
Apr '16

Sussex county has lots of empty space out towards the NY border. Lots of areas to consider in Eastern Pennsylvania. NY state has lots of open space as well. Selecting a Drug center at the door step of a heavily densely populated residential community is just ridiculous.

scooter scooter
Apr '16

Before Panther Valley community and Golf Course was built who owned the land? What was it zoned for?

Curious Curious
Apr '16

You are going to need closer places then that if your looking to make a point. Sending a project out of state, or almost out of state will not get you far IMO

Darrin Darrin
Apr '16

Darwin - "My problem is with foolish people like DannyC " Proud to not be as smart as you, with principled arguments against this profit-oriented drug rehab in our area, while you have no positive arguments for it. BTW, do you live in Allamuchy or Panther Valley?

DannyC DannyC
Apr '16

Re: Proposed Drug Rehab facility in Allamuchy

Every concern yesterday was addressed by the engineer but the people of Panther valley and Allamuchy are only concerned about property value and fears of having no clue about the disease of addiction and what is happening everywhere throughout the state. How does this benefit Panther valley. It benefits all of Warren County by helping those with a disease therefore less breakins, less overdoses, less Narcan saves, less calls to Emts and police because those who are voluntarily placed there are there because they want to get better. You can say you know someone. Knowing someone and actually living it is two different things. I heard nothing but ignorance at this meeting. How many trees will be harmed. How many trees where harmed building Panther valley. Go somewhere else. Why, why does it have to be in a rural area after all your concern was keeping PV rural. Why not here. Don't you realize how many drug dealers already drive off of 80 and live within Panther valley. Your clueless because people are afraid to speak up based on the ignorance displayed Thursday night. I don't blame the attorney for not turning around. I heard mocking of the word cottages and it's a ten minute walk to my home. Those affected want to get well. Yes a few leave but if their leaving there not breaking and entering there getting out of the area. The benefit of saving lives and trying to help what is known even by the governor as an epidemic out way any petty concern you could bring up. God is the only one who gets to judge. Shame on all of you. May you never be directly affected by this because this is a hell like no other. No one chooses to be an addict. No one says when I grow up I'm going to become addicted I'm going to lose friends and only be able to think of one thing and hate myself and feel worse than any flu and try to get help but be turned away even though I have insurance because of lack of treatment. Im going to be stigmatized and because people are hurtful and heartless and ignorant I'm going to die. Unless I can get into a treatment center that has an open bed and get a chance at recovery.

Everylifematters Everylifematters
Apr '16

Danny "while you have no positive arguments for it"

Darwin has done nothing BUT brought positive arguments to the table about this, what are you talking about???

Good post Everylifematters

Some of you could have good points, but you are going about this all wrong. The NIMBY mentality is going to get you absolutely nowhere. You need factual information to back up your claims. FUD, is not factual.

Darrin Darrin
Apr '16

Darrin - You do not live in Allamuchy or Panther Valley, either. IMO, non-residents have no rights on this issue. In whose interests are you acting, and why? I hope it is just bleeding heart enabling. Everylifematters - Total abstinence and tough love is the path to successful recovery, and you do not need insurance to pay for it.

DannyC DannyC
Apr '16

"No one chooses to be an addict"

Actually they did...they chose to put those drugs in their nose, arm, mouth, etc... its no big secret that many of the drugs today are highly addictive.
There is information and warnings everywhere you look these days. It is even taught in school starting in the Elementary grades. People are well informed of the dangers that come with doing drugs and they still choose to do it.


Danny, I live in the surrounding area......just because you don't live in hackettstown, should you have no concern about hackettstown hospital?

I fortunately do not have any direct relations to anyone with a drug issue, but know of, and have heard of PLENTY that would benefit TREMENDOUSLY from a center like this. Drugs are almost a epidemic, and it's sad to see some of the same people who complain about drug use, against a facility such as this.

And non-residents have EVERY right to this. It is not a PV community center that only benefits you guys, it benefits every town in the surrounding area. Town meetings are public, and do not discriminate against people who do not live in the town, unless PV are private meetings? Essentially you could have anyone show up from other towns who are for it, and fight for it.

JRT, right, they choose to do drugs in the first place, but did not choose to become addicted.

Darrin Darrin
Apr '16

Darrin - Put ARS in what was the Bergen Tool project. Plenty of room and parking, plus closer to where drugs are bought and sold in Hackettstown. Like that idea?

DannyC DannyC
Apr '16

Lame argument. ARS is looking for a resort setting property. Bergen tool site doesn't match what they were looking for. Also Bergen site is on main st in a residential area.

Darwin Darwin
Apr '16

"They choose to do drugs in the first place, but did not choose to become addicted"

I'm sorry, but that is a ridiculous statement. That was my point...everyone knows that drugs are addicting yet people still do them.
So saying they chose one, but not the other makes no sense to me.


Whatta mean lame? It's brilliant.

Choice: 50-100 recovering individuals, 80% addicts, 20% overweight, in a luxury setting or 108 low to middle income renters and town house owner families.

Personally I vote rehab. But I don't live next to Darrin (which might scare me more :>)

strangerdanger strangerdanger
Apr '16

Darrin & Darwin - Too bad, it could be another Straight and Narrow as in Patterson. PV is a GATED "residential area", with residents paying high owners association fees, and it should stay that way. Destroy your own properties. Stop imposing on other property owners by defending ARS getting "what they were looking for". .

DannyC DannyC
Apr '16

So does anyone know who owned the land that is now the Panther Valley community and what it was zoned for prior to these homes and golf course being built?

Curious Curious
Apr '16

Darrin's pissed at the Bergen project so he wants to vent/bring others into his "boat"...


Danny you sound like such a snob. You don't even know the plans yet. Maybe the give and take in the design plans will be to require it be a fenced in property.

But for the 1 millionth time sunrise has had no reports of patients leaving the facility and breaking into the nearby homes.

Darwin Darwin
Apr '16

Curious, Greg Kreiser owns the property. He is from Bergen County. His mother inherited the property from her husband, (it was used as a country retreat). She sold it to Greg for $1. He has been trying to develop the land for over 10 years. Originally he wanted to build 48 McMansions on it, but then the Great Recession hit, and the market dried up. It is zoned residential.

Observer3 Observer3
Apr '16

There is no wrong place for a rehab facility I know people who have gotten clean and sober in central newark and Patterson if they could do it there's no excuses that anyone else cant do it it is what you make it

Jimmi k Jimmi k
Apr '16

Jimmi k - You are right. Recovery is a matter of personal choice, as was the first toke, snort or shot that got them hooked. But until they make that life-changing positive choice, they are dangerously trying to support their habit, out of control, while the greedy for-profit rehabs make big money by prolonging addicts' ultimately necessary decision to save their own lives.

DannyC DannyC
Apr '16

DannyC, really ! Put it closer to Hackettstown where drugs are bought and sold !! Do you think drugs aren't being bought and sold in Panther Valley? Many years ago when my kids were in school, PV was where all the parties were that had alcohol and drugs! Darwin is right, you sound like such a snob !!!!

Mariann Mariann
Apr '16

Mariann - So how about more of it? What you want? Why did you not do something about it, even for your own kids? Snobbery works for me, if it helps keep junk out of the community.

DannyC DannyC
Apr '16

Danny not sure how long you have lived in your precious gated community but less than 3 years ago when homes and cars were getting broken into there is was from inside the gates residents

http://www.hackettstownlife.com/forum/542464

http://www.lehighvalleylive.com/warren-county/express-times/index.ssf/2011/01/teens_from_independence_allamu.html

Darwin Darwin
Apr '16

I am ashamed to live among some of these HLers and their narrow minds. Once the Rehab we won't even know it's there and move on to the next topic to bicker about behind our gated enclave.

I wish everyone to stop and educate themselves a bit about addictions before spewing such trash like choice, willpower. "Junk." If you had a loved one suffering from an addiction would you want some high brow classifying them as junk?


Well put iRun.


Observer, Are you referring to the property that ARS is looking to buy for a rehab facility or the property that is Panther Valley where all the houses and golf course are?

Curious Curious
May '16

No one is or should be calling an addict "junk" as you stated. PV is a huge Residential Community and we all have a family member or know someone who is an addict so please do not talk to us like we are trash either. I have a personal family member who has a serous issue and we know first hand what is required and involved. Having this Drug Rehab in Allamuchy is not going to work. We sent our family member to Maine into a very rural setting with nothing surrounding the area (no Bars,no Drug stores,no Children, no Schools, no Assisted Living Center, no NYC Bus Service to name a few options within walking distance of the proposed Drug Rehab Center). Please be respectful when communicating as many Residents do understand firsthand how important this topic is. Thank you kindly.

resident resident
May '16

I thought junk = drugs.

Mark Mc. Mark Mc.
May '16

No disrespect intended, except for carpetbaggers trying to impose their personal biases to the detriment of PV residents - no respect for them. I also have a family member who is a recovering addict, now a counselor at one of the mentioned drug facilities, and also an EMS paramedic, having seen many horrors, what works and what does not, and my opinion is largely based on his experiences and insights. But I dislike and am angered by outsiders with no skin in the game who feel free to screw property owners with their posts on this relatively meaningless forum.

My question now is: Do I put my property on the market before or after resolution of the drug center issue, that is, will the uncertainty lower the price? Thanks in advance to real estate experts with experience in this area and on this issue.

DannyC DannyC
May '16

Darwin - That's nothing compared to 2008 and the drug & gun cache inside PV.

http://blog.pennlive.com/lvbreakingnews/2008/03/allamuchy_twp_drug_bust_nets_s.html

DannyC - I agree about meaningless in the greater picture. It's just a forum. If so, then why so upset with the names and insults? If 2008 didn't decrease your value, why worry?


DannyC, if you were not so busy trying to push everyone away that has anything positive to say about such a facility, you would see that I was trying to help you make your arguments stronger. Town boards do not care about your not in my back yard woes, you need to have alternative ideas, and factual information to make a point. But hey, if you have not been able to see that I was trying to help, go for it your way, best of luck to you.

And by the way, sure, put it in at bergen tool, also put in the same distance with woods buffer you will have in PV from the homes to the center, have it's own entrance like yours would that would keep commercial traffic off of the residential roads, if we're going to do it, might as well do it the same way. (By the way, all impossible at the bergen tool site)

Darrin Darrin
May '16

DannyC- I bet you don't even know where this property is located! Take the time to educate yourself.....

Isore
May '16

Darrin - Thanks, I understand your point about trying to help. But bowing out and moving out, it is just a question of when. GC - I have only been here for five years, with many naïve ideas about this area. Thanks for your enlightenment, all the more reason to get out, hopefully financially intact. Isore - How much do you want to bet?

DannyC DannyC
May '16

Let me know if you need help packing Danny.

Again your 2 arguments for why this place shouldn't move in near your precious gated community is property value decline and drugs/crimes in PV. As we have shown you over and over again, 1) crime and drugs are already inside the gates and 2) property value next to a rehab center in Lafayette has not been effected in 20 years of the homes being there.

I see no reason to deny the zoning change other than NIMBY. Once they get approved and buy the property that is when the planning takes place. Fences, septic, roads, traffic all those things will come into play in the designing and approval of the plans. That is what we did with Bergen. No one really fought CVS coming in, we just wanted the plans, design, roads, storm water, open space, ect ect to have the town's best interest in mind. There was plenty of give and take.

Oh and to answer your earlier question, while I am not a resident of PV, my mom is currently building her townhouse in the Meadows portion of PV. She was aware of the plans and we drove by the site. The idea of it going in had not effect on her decision to sign a contract to start building.... so "I have some skin in the game" as you put it

darwin darwin
May '16

"I see no reason to deny the zoning change other than NIMBY."
Good enough for me! The zoning is the zoning, the master plan is set and this is a HUGE variance worthy of a full master plan review, not just an ad hoc one off decision.

Beyond NIMBY, I think my approach would focus on WIFM, protections, and alternatives. The prime alternative is more PV or another similar development. Is that better? Not sure. Depending on a weak economy is a short term fool's dream, it's not if but when.

If this proceeds and the zoning change is in, 'what's in it for me (me being PV and surrounds). Can the entire plot be turned into "cottages." What's the defined buffer space and can it be altered? What are the protections against "escapes" (does it even happen), future development, traffic and infrastructure requirements.

For me, if the infrastructure is covered, escapes are low risk, expansion is capped, and I got over 100 acres of protected green space, might be preferable to another development. Might even increase PV home values.

Just saying. And no, I don't live here and have zero skin in the game except as a "surrounder," but again, NIMBY is good enough for me.

strangerdanger strangerdanger
May '16

We need to get over ourselves. Really. Open your mind and your hearts. The people will not be sizing up our homes to descend upon but instead trying to battle their demons.


"The prime alternative is more PV or another similar development. Is that better? "

the prime alternative is nothing right now. How long has that land been up for sale with not interested parties. Also this is not that big of a change to the Master Plan. "Residential" use will still make up the majority of all new buildings. The main Mansion is staying. I haven't seen the plans yet but from what I have been told and from what I have read, this will have a residential feel and look to it.

How many employees with be there per shift?
How many patients do they expect to treat at one time?

with only 5? cottages being built there will be well over 100 acres of protected land that will not be built on.

if the buildings are built on the other side, away from PV then there is already a pretty good size buffer in place. Can anyone see the existing mansion from PV?

darwin darwin
May '16

strangerdanger - "Might even increase PV home values." Now this is an argument I can use! Please elaborate, so I may pass it on to my realtor.

DannyC DannyC
May '16

simply supply and demand Danny, SD's point was if the land for sale gets capped and there will be 100+ acres of land that will never get developed then the supply in PV stops, so in turn the demand increases. But if another residential development buys the land and builds brand new residential homes on most of that 160 acres of land then supply goes up and demand goes down.


maybe a far stretch but I get his point. he was saying the rehab could be better than another developer buying the land to build another 100 homes. that actually would effect the town more than a drug rehab with 5 cottages.

schools, roads, sewers, all would be heavily impacted more by residential homes then it would be by a rehab center.

darwin darwin
May '16

"the prime alternative is nothing right now" is a short term fool's dream like I said. So in the short term you are correct, in the long term it will be sold and at this point it will be residential, as packed as it is zoned for. Perhaps the valley will go first, but only time and dollars will tell.

Of course if they ever got that Rt 80 exit at the back end of PV, the area is doomed.....

DC : some people would say 100 acres of protected green space is a plus especially if they did something like Green Acres grandfathering. Especially if you back onto it. Of course that's where the drug zombies will attack first :>) Sure, there's the supply and demand but I never really considered that given the PC building pace and it's immediate surrounds.

To me though the important point is before I would give on the zoning, wifm, wifm, wifm. And so far, not sure we have heard of any beyond helping our fellow man. When it comes to home value risk, not sure that's my prime motivator.

strangerdanger strangerdanger
May '16

In May there is another meeting, the date was set for May 26th at the Allamuchy School. Please attend. If you are in favor or against, these meetings are a great venue for voicing your opinion.

Larry M Darst Larry M Darst
May '16

Darwin - So housing density, or lack of it, overrides who is housed and what impact they may have on worsening existing drug traffic and abuse? I hope you are right.

DannyC DannyC
May '16

who is housed and what impact they may have on worsening existing drug traffic and abuse?

again danny I am waiting for you to provide some FACTS that is has happened any anywhere else a rehab resort was built near a residential area. I have show you a 30 year example where it has not happened. how about you show me 1 example where it has?

but you just shouting "the druggies will attack our village" sounds solely NIMBY

darwin darwin
May '16

Darwin - Regarding other drug ventures, Lafayette real estate values have been depressed for decades due to the drug magnet there, with no changes for all that time. This new proposal is a big change for the Allamuchy/PV area, and could result in an immediate plummeting of real estate values, which might take decades to level out as Lafayette has. Totally different story. Meanwhile, I am waiting for you to disclose who you work for (ARS?) to take such a strong position in favor of their drug venture. Smells more money-driven than bleeding-heart enabling. NIMBY!

DannyC DannyC
May '16

lol so if I am not against something i must work for the company. I like it. I was also accused of working for CVS when their plans were going in. No sorry Danny I don't work for the Fla based ARS company or have any financial gain if they go in. But nice try.

And Lafayette is considered one of the lowest crime rate towns in the state. Also the home in the area of sunrise have more than doubled since they were built in 1997. With some being sold before the housing bubble in the $900ks.

Darwin Darwin
May '16

Agree, Either way a boatload of land is going to be developed....so the question is do we want 100+ more people we will never see or 100+ new neighbors?

Lives in PV Lives in PV
May '16

Lives in PV - Either way, you will see them. On the streets, at the Martz bus stop, the 7-11, the restaurants, shops and pub in the Panther Valley strip mall. The question is: Who are they and what are they up to?

DannyC DannyC
May '16

Darwin - How easy it will be for addicts to cop drugs at the proposed location: NYC bus stop, 7-11 for snacks, all within walking distance of the facility. Does Sunrise House have these conveniences?

DannyC DannyC
May '16

LOL Danny, your lingo makes you sound so square.

Sunrise residents don't leave their facility. ARS stated at the meeting, their residents don't leave their grounds. but you are right the 7-11 could pose a problem for the eating disorder residents of the rehab. Better lock up that super gulp!!

darwin darwin
May '16

hey who knows maybe Chris Christie will be a patient there and you can go and tell him to his face how you will never forgive him for hugging Obama and handing him the 2012 election. LMAO!!!

darwin darwin
May '16

Sounds like DannyC has no idea how a drug rehab center works. These patients don't get privileges to go to town or ride a bus to NYC. They are in an intense therapy sessions. Do some research or watch Intervention on TV. That would give you an idea.

Build it and you won't even know it is there. There is an outpatient facility right in town and they never have had any problems and its real close to a drug store. Gof figure.

Christine Christine
May '16

Christine - It doesn't work that way in real life. Addicts go in and out of rehabs all the time, usually to support their own habits, but sometimes to make a business out of it by bringing in drugs to sell to a welcoming audience. THAT is how drug centers work. Sewers and shams. Watch "28 Days" if you need a media reference.

DannyC DannyC
May '16

Danny, prescription drugs including heroin readily flow into Panther Valley. You may not see it but it is happening. Time to take off the rose colored glasses.

kb2755 kb2755
May '16

Darwin - Drugs, including heroin and prescription opiates, now flow readily into Sunrise House even as we speak. Chris Christie's obesity is his own problem. Christie was and is simply a traitor to his party, his state and his country, but that's it, just politics, so why bring it up, except to display even more bias against fat people?. Nothing to do with rehabs or real estate. Facts. Very square.

DannyC DannyC
May '16

28 Days? Where do you get your news: Star Wars?

Strangerdanger Strangerdanger
May '16

kb2755 - Please tell me something I do not know, or even better, how to make a positive impact on it. Thanks.

DannyC DannyC
May '16

Well, for one, a rehab center where these people could get help would be a positive impact......

Darrin Darrin
May '16

If you knew drugs readily flow into PV why are you waiting until now to put your place on the market. I understand the concerns everyone has but has anyone seen the full plans and details of the rehab facility? The township is in a good position to maybe get 100 acres of land for their residents to enjoy in exchange for the zoning change. That sounds positive to me.

kb2755 kb2755
May '16

Darrin, kb2755 et al -

You guys are not from the streets, are you? Dealing with addicts, in or out of rehab, is a losing proposition, since all they want is your money to support their habits. And some of the worst hustlers are within the rehabs, running their dope businesses from there. Wake up and smell the garbage.

I was SO naïve about this area. Please forgive me for that misconception. Making the only possible positive changes I can now - getting out.

DannyC DannyC
May '16

DannyC - You tell others to wake up but you say you're naïve yourself? Good luck. Where ever you move you're going to carry the same thing with you. It's not about "this area".


+1 GC....................

4catmom 4catmom
May '16

The way Danny refers to human beings as "those people," "junk," etc. just goes to show that he is obviously living in his own bubble of uneducated prejudice. I shutter to think his other views. I


iRun, either that or he was in rehab once and had a bad experience.

I have 7 people I know that were heroin addicts and went to rehab like this one. Prior outpatient and hospitals did not work. One went to jail and quit cold turkey and is clean now, 2 went to Fla rehab, stayed there and have changed their lives for the better. 1 went to outpatient rehab several times and died in an overdose. 2 are still in Sunrise and have been for 4 months and ready to go to sober living house.

Rehab facilities is intense work. Its just not go in and get better. It involves a lot of therapy and life changes. Most do not recommend they return to the area which they started their drugs.

I say if it helps half the people build it. We need it.

Christine Christine
May '16

Christine I wouldn't put your experience with multiple addicts influencing other towns. Like if you made that statement directly to people in Chester they would laugh very hard. If more rehab facilities are needed then open one up behind Marley's...


Well said Christine :)

Danny C I grew up in a city(from "the streets" as you call it!) As much as I may at times complain about "The Hackettstown Board of Ed"! I would rather raise my kids in Hackettstown (crime really low) then move them to Camden, Trenton, Newark (just to name a few)! So Danny C I am just not getting your point here?
Addiction is not a self made illness! People don't choose to get cancer just like they don't choose to get addicted to drugs or alcohol. Like every other organ in the body that can go bad, so can the brain (for it is also an organ!) Prior to posting I suggest you join NAMI. You will be shocked at how many "white collar" people are inflicted with mental illness and addiction! Some of your very own neighbors "in your gated community" maybe struggling with some type of addiction that is unrecognizable to their neighbors. Educate yourself prior to posting you idiocrincies.

OriginalRealist OriginalRealist
May '16

Danny. I grew up in Brooklyn, spent 36 years there, so yes I am from the streets. My sister was a crack addict back in the eighties, disapeared for 7 years. My Dad, Brother and I spent the better part of two years looking for her. It wasn't until she hit her bottom that she reahed out and asked for help. She is clean and sober for 20 plus years. If you are not willing to admit you are poweless over your addiction you won't be successful with dealing with it on a daily basis.

kb2755 kb2755
May '16

The next Land Use Meeting will be May 26th at 7:30 pm at the school on Johnsonburg Road.

JrzyGirl88 JrzyGirl88
May '16

I give up. If you want this for-profit drug center in your neighborhood, so be it. Not in my new neighborhood. Good luck, and good riddance.

DannyC DannyC
May '16

OriginalRealist - Arrrrrggghhh!!! I don't care if Janis Joplin, Jimmy Hendrix, Jim Morrison, Michael Jackson and Prince all jammed together on my back patio (as ghosts), I don't want their drugs anywhere near my property or my family. Stereotype that.

DannyC DannyC
May '16

Ultimately this is a zoning decision and whether it makes sense to grant ARS the variance. I frankly don't care whether it's a rehabilitation center or a country club - the land is currently not zoned to permit several buildings on the site (as per LH's summary above). All of the open space around this area is disappearing and we will not be able to get it back once built.


Danny C what makes your neighborhood extra special compared to other neighborhoods? I just don't like the fact that you said put it in Hackettstown, because that is where all the drugs are!
Please do tell me where you think exactly this drug rehab should be built? It will have to be built in "someone's neighborhood"!

OriginalRealist OriginalRealist
May '16

Is the property in the Highlands preservation zone? If so they would probably not be able to build more buildings or impervious surfaces regardless of local zoning.


Hate to tell you this Danny C, but there are drugs wherever you go!
You want to fight this, you have your rights and reasons (and I won't hold it against you) but do it professionally without putting "others" and "other towns down"! Best Wishes

OriginalRealist OriginalRealist
May '16

DannyC- good luck finding that Eutopia! Let us all know when you do! Adios .....

Isore
May '16

So...any volunteers to organize DannyC's going away party?

Sorry DannyC, as much as I pride myself on seeing both sides (or more) to every issue, I just can't get behind your arguments against this issue.

slade v 2.0 slade v 2.0
May '16

OriginalRealist - I am getting out of PV/Hackettstown, solely because the drug center is coming in, that's it. There indeed are other neighborhoods where drugs can and are being successfully repelled. Best Wishes to you.

BTW, look behind Marley's on Main Street to see where the drug traffic in town stems from. What the cops tell me, and other posters have confirmed.

If the proponents of the ARS deal have their way, this drug traffic center will shift to the 7-11 on Rutherford Road in Allamuchy.

Just saying, no matter to me, I am out of here.

DannyC DannyC
May '16

One more thing DannyC....when you find your drug free utopia, I hope you'll let us know where it is.

slade v 2.0 slade v 2.0
May '16

The land is currently zoned for 40 homes. What's the difference if it's "cottages" helping people or homes. There would be traffic and trees destroyed. The drugs come off of route 80 now and allamuchy kids go to hackettstown heroin high school. Ask the local cops they will tell you that's what it's called and it's called that unfortunately because naive kids take pills to fit in. They don't understand addiction and in a blink of an eye their lives and their families lives are destroyed. The facility already said its voluntary so they WANT to be there. It's not a complete fix but without it they wouldn't have a chance. Watch the movie anonymous people they DO RECOVER!! End the stigma. Most of you don't have a clue. I lived it with my son and he made a mistake at 14 by trying Oxy. I guess none of you have made mistakes as a teen. Good for you. Your perfect. But us not so perfect people need a chance at recovery and we deserve it in a nice place like allamuchy. Stop the hate.

Everylifematters Everylifematters
May '16

slade v 2.0 - My drug-free utopia is my business. Find your own, or if you have any courage, create your own.

DannyC DannyC
May '16

DannyC - I wasn't being flip with my drug free utopia remark. I am genuinely interested to know if such a place exists. I'm in my mid 60's, lived in many parts of the U.S., been associated with a diverse range of the population and have yet to find a place where drugs are not present. And yes...I have family members addicted to drugs and SURPRISE - one of them lives in PV.

slade v 2.0 slade v 2.0
May '16

Hopefully there are armed citizens in PV ready to deal with your family member...


"For profit drug center?" You mean like CVS and Rite Aid???

DannyC, you've been burying your head in the sand if you think your living in PV has meant you're living in a drug-free zone. Drugs are all around us everywhere. Your problem is you see addicted people every day and just don't know it. Not all addicts are burglarizing homes or robbing gas stations to pay for their drugs. Far more are next to you in the supermarket or eating in an upscale restaurant or tooling around town in their Mercedes and then going home to pop a few more Vicodan, Percocet, or Oxycontin. You just don't get that the biggest problem today is with prescription drugs, either obtained from a street source, or by prescription shopping from multiple doctors and pharmacies.

As far as the anger expressed by some over the fact that ARS is a for-profit company, please provide me with a list of the doctors, physical therapists, psychologists and outpatient surgical centers in the area that do not charge for their professional services. Maybe in the summer I can trade some garden-fresh vegetables for an office visit!

JerryG JerryG
May '16

Is someone really advocating shooting people who have an addiction?

JerryG JerryG
May '16

DannyC, you are moving out before property is even sold, right now it is a pipe dream, yes a possibility, but you are running out scared about something that probably will not be occupied for another 2 or more years. Seems like something else is bothering you.

Darrin Darrin
May '16

is this one of those "if so in so gets elected President, I'm moving to Canada" threats? or are you really putting your house on the market now? Let me know if you need a name of a good realtor or if I can be of any assistance with your pending move.

darwin darwin
May '16

Darrin & Darwin -

Many disappointments with PVOA, including the high monthly association fees and poor maintenance service, not to mention the worthless gates. Not so "precious". Been thinking about other areas near to my family for a while, with no such wasteful burdens. The drug rehab issue set me in motion to sell now, probably the best time to do it. Thanks, but I have an experienced and hard working realtor on the case.

DannyC DannyC
May '16

just sitting on my fingers here --- just sitting

4catmom 4catmom
May '16

It's such a shame this entire conversation has become an attack on addicts and DannyC. The real issue here is that regardless of what gets put in, unless it's houses, it will change the entire landscape of Panther Valley and quite frankly, no one from outside of Panther valley should be allowed to participate in the discussions, or at least not without more respect for their position on the subject. Do you get to vote for our mayor? No, not unless you live here. This is our community and our taxes. Shame on you for taking your personal concerns for drug addicts and letting your emotions ruin logical evaluation of the situation as the zoning issue that it is (not the need for help for the oh so poor addicts, which, again, is a ridiculous argument because most people locally won't be able to afford to go there). This facility was chosen for its profit potential for ars, nothing else. DannyC deciding to move is indicative of more of what's to come--people will decide Panther valley is not what they chose to live there for and will leave to go somewhere else. Many people choose to pay the high taxes and association dues of Panther valley (which are more expensive than those of more convenient areas with better schools and town services because they want to old fashioned pleasantville farm resort feel). Putting a commercial hub in the mix will leave them less to stay for to justify the ridiculous prices paid to live out so far from work.

Anonymous
May '16

Additionally, ars treatment centers also include treatment of mental health disorders as severe as schizophrenia. So, if you want facts to support safety concern for the ars specific facility, just check out greystone's repeat history of escapeed patients breaking into homes in the surrounding area.

Anonymous
May '16

And also, by the way, for those who are stating there are no examples of problems with drug rehab facilities, the Allamuchy residents against rezoning webpage has many supporting articles of potential issues and here are some otgers:

http://wkrn.com/2013/04/15/man-escapes-rehab-after-assaulting-girlfriend-attacks-her-again/

http://www.yorkdispatch.com/story/news/2016/05/01/police-searching-juvenile-who-escaped-rehab-center/83803888/

http://abc30.com/news/therapist-in-critical-condition-after-stabbing-by-rehab-patient/1131680/

http://www.thedailybeast.com/articles/2013/07/01/malibu-cracks-down-on-posh-rehab-facilities.html

http://www.rollingstone.com/music/news/kurt-cobains-downward-spiral-the-last-days-of-nirvanas-leader-19940602

Anonymous
May '16

It's fine and dandy for everyone to post their feelings on here but, if you really want attention to the matter at hand, I am surprised no one has start handing out flyers out out signs. I have neighbors who do not know of this site and did not really know what was going on. The message needs to be spread beyond the confines of this site.

Side note; if a large enough group of us PV-ers stood our ground, a difference could be made. For example; if everyone opposed to the rehab facility just out and out refused to pay their association fees until these plans were cancelled, you can be assured the PVPOA would take notice. What are they going to do, kick us all out if we don't pay the fees until this is resolved. Yes I like the services PVPOA provide to us, but if we can directly affect the PVPOA's "income" and let them know why we are not paying, our voice can be heard.

Lives in PV also Lives in PV also
May '16

I've been following this thread from the start and I've attended the land use board meetings. A few comments about what's been posted here:

Anonymous - you really need to get your facts straight before you post. Panther Valley is a community within the municipality of Allamuchy. Residents of Allamuchy pay taxes and vote for the mayor - NOT just PV residents. Furthermore, the property in question is not in PV and the closest residences to the facility are not even in PV!

So far, the opposition folks (both here on the forum and at the meeting) have been essentially engaging in scare tactics trying to make everyone believe that escaped drug attics will be trolling the streets breaking into houses and that real estate prices will plummet. Maybe those things are true and maybe they're not, but so far I haven't seen any solid evidence that show they are valid points. At this point, the only thing that will drive drown real estate prices is the hysteria being created by the opposition.

I'd like to hear all of the testimony from the applicant and the comments from the public before deciding for myself if the benefits outweigh the detriments.

FarmerJake FarmerJake
May '16

Farmer, thanks for stating the obvious. I figured it would be assumed that people would understand the larger point of what I meant (you have people on here making comments about needed decisions and comments for Panther valley that don't even live there and people arguing the community need for this facility that don't even live in Allamuchy). Also, not sure how you can say this won't affect Panther valley when the entrance is behind Panther valley mall at the entrance of Panther valley?! And for the seventh millionth time, stop focusing on this as a drug addict debate. The problem is that rezoning this property will change Allamuchy in irreversible ways .

People around here that keep wanting to nit pick little elements of people's statements are just detracting from the bigger picture.

Anonymous
May '16

Anonymous, do you happen to know if the land occupied by the Panther Valley community was always zoned residential, or was it changed to accommodate the building of the houses and golf course?

Curious Curious
May '16

"What are they going to do, kick us all out if we don't pay the fees until this is resolved."

Well... yeah.

They will place a lien against your property (also affecting your credit score).
They could get a judgement to garnish your wages to satisfy the lien.
They could begin foreclosure on your home (even if your mortgage is paid).

Don't forget any attorney fees you'd be paying to defend yourself in these actions.

I'm sure it's all spelled out in the HOA contract you signed.

Mark Mc. Mark Mc.
May '16

Confused here - holding back PVPOA dues would accomplish what? PV does not own the property in question - does not have a vote on the Land Use Board - so I don't understand the concept at all.........................

4catmom 4catmom
May '16

It would prove that PV housing values can fall.

strangerdanger strangerdanger
May '16

Curious, I believe the property that is now PV started out as a residential farm. It was purchased and developed into a community by a group of people that wanted to build a secluded private residential golf community to personally live in. Though the piece of property in question (where they want to build the rehab center) is not owned by PV, it just abuts the entrance. That property is and was residentially zoned as well.

Anonymous
May '16

So does that mean it was re-zoned to accommodate the building of houses? Were there objections from the people living in the surrounding area that did not want the land re-zoned and built on?

Curious Curious
May '16

What are the plans for access to the facility? Will it use the same driveway as what is there now off Rutherfurd road? Will there be any signage, or will it be discreet?

D-ManPV D-ManPV
May '16

Perhaps there was less objection to go from farm to single family residential zoning than there is to go from SFR to commercial (I assume that's the zoning variance needed here).

Mark Mc. Mark Mc.
May '16

It was residential and still is residential. I'm sure they needed approval for adding all the additional structures to the property, but it was still residential to residential with the exception of the golf course. Not quite the same. The only people that would be able to answer your questions about whether surrounding people objected are people that we living in the area (and involved) in the 60's.

Also to note, Panther valley expanded gradually over time, someone didn't just come in and build the whole thing all at once (houses in front and golf course first in 60s, then condos near front, then condos and townhouses near back in 80s and 90s and then bowers and other newer houses and townhouses in 2000s. And yes, the newer (2000s) properties added have contributed to a decrease in value in the older existing properties.

Anonymous
May '16

"Side note; if a large enough group of us PV-ers stood our ground, a difference could be made. For example; if everyone opposed to the rehab facility just out and out refused to pay their association fees until these plans were cancelled, you can be assured the PVPOA would take notice.'

they would take notice but wouldn't/can't do a thing about it. It amazes me some people don't understand PV is not its own little town. The PVPOA is powerless beyond its own gates. This land, the decision on what goes on it is the town of Allamuchy's decision to make. Not PVOAs.

darwin darwin
May '16

The best way to gain answers to all of your questions and concerns is to attend the monthly meetings. The next meeting is May 26th. My guess is these meetings will proceed for several months.

Larry M Darst Larry M Darst
May '16

Re: Proposed Drug Rehab facility in Allamuchy

Hmm... I eat too much junk food. Can I get a few nights here?

Mark Mc. Mark Mc.
May '16

And yes even though I do not live in Allamuchy, inside PV or outside the gates, I have every right to voice my opinion on this matter on HL. I am not going to attend any of the public meetings even though they are OPEN to the entire public and not just to residents of Allamcuhy.

But this project will effect the residents in H'town. If this rehab gets denied, the other offer on the table is 40 homes. Those 40 homes will bring in more children to our H'town schools as for some reason Allamuchy is $13million in debt and has no HS to show for it. Great job by your previous administration! The 40 new homes will have more of an impact on traffic, roads, buses, sewers etc then the rehab resort will

BTW the 40 new homes will bring Allamuchy into almost another $1million in debt to cover the cost to educate the 40-60 new kids entering the school system. Or you can build a rehab resort which will bring in $250k in tax revenue a year??? I'm not math expert but I think +250k is > than -$1million.

darwin darwin
May '16

Darwin, you're missing the complexity of the situation in assuming that one will cost/ more than the other.

Anonymous
May '16

Or 55+ housing with no additional school costs...


Also, even if you think ars cost will not exceed the tax money it brings, 40 homes at an average of 200,000 assessed value brings in more tax dollars than ars facility. The taxes paid cover the cost of schooling the children, so not sure I understand your argument. If you're saying 40 homes worth of more kids (again assuming the majority of these people even have kids) will put Hackettstown high over the edge in the future as far as size capacity, all the more reason for my original argument that the 25 Rutherford road property should be made into a high school for Allamuchy (similar to the Rutherford property that is how Allamuchy pk-1).

Anonymous
May '16

I like your idea ijay

Anonymous
May '16

http://www.newjerseyhills.com/print_only/_headline_style/bold_54/screaming-for-an-end/article_59f40874-1c02-5a0a-b32c-5adf51f7303f.html

Everylifematters Everylifematters
May '16

Darwin, while you are certainly welcome to comment on panther valley, you are not welcome to your own facts. the current debt in panther valley (14 million) consists of bonds approved by the residents for schools and a water system. note the water main breaks in Hackettstown main street. our debt is being retired as planned. the new home construction in panther valley is around 300 thousand, taxes 10 thousand around 40 homes equals 400 thousand in tax revenue. Darwin the question is zoning and the growth of commercial development.


If you want to keep people in NJ, the retirees need more and better 55+ options. Regarding new construction, I see little single family, but a lot of rentals and 55+. When will the economy return for McMansions in Warren County, maybe never...


Does anyone else see the irony in Anonymous complaining about non-PV folks expressing their opinions here while he/she hides behind a pseudonym?

Oh, and for all the "ARS wants to make money" complainers...I'm still waiting for the names of local physicians, dentists, physical therapists and other health care professionals who don't charge a fee and are in business to lose money.

ARS is as much entitled to make money as any other individual practitioner or group practice.

JerryG JerryG
May '16

Jerry, first of all everyone here is hiding behind a pseudonym--it's an Internet forum with screen names. I'll change my name to SparklesinPv--would that make you happier?

Also, the point being made about ars looking to make money is that the bleeding hearts on here don't seem to understand that ars is first and foremost a business.

Thanks for supporting my point that people such as yourself come on here and nitpick trite little points and attack people rather than contributing anything to discussion of the actual situation at hand.

Anonymous
May '16

Anonymous, agreed that ARS is first and foremost a business, and my point is that so is every other health care practitioner. Why do people continue to bring that up about ARS as if that one point somehow makes them inherently evil?

Since people seem to think that people under treatment at ARS will wander far and wide in search of people and homes to pillage and plunder, I have as much right as anyone else living in the area to comment. Not that I agree with that prospect; as I've said earlier, the typical addict in this area is more likely than not to be well off, not a danger to others, and hooked on prescription painkillers prescribed by a multiple physicians and filled by multiple pharmacies.

People who are suffering from substance abuse deserve to be treated as human beings and not as criminals.

Oh, and not everyone hides behind a pseudonym....my first name is Jerry, G is my last initial, and there are others who aren't afraid to use their real names as well.

Unless Anonymous, Sparkles really IS your name?

JerryG JerryG
May '16

"the point being made about ars looking to make money is that the bleeding hearts on here don't seem to understand that ars is first and foremost a business."

so if a cancer center wanted to go in we should use the same logic? They are a for profit cancer center so those bleeding hearts that think they will help the cancer patients need to know the cancer center is first and foremost a business

darwin darwin
May '16

"40 homes at an average of 200,000 assessed value brings in more tax dollars than ars facility. The taxes paid cover the cost of schooling the children, so not sure I understand your argument"

maybe the revenue will cover the cost of the schooling. but probably not. depending on which data you use the avg cost to school a kid is slightly higher. But lets call it a wash... ok so $250k is still > than $0.

now yes a 55+ little community would probably be the most ideal for the town and PV residents. but that is not on the table. not sure how profitable it would be for a developer at the cost to buy the land. With 55+ places popping up all around us it is a very competitive market...

so its a rehab or 40 homes. choose one.

darwin darwin
May '16

"Unless Anonymous, Sparkles really IS your name?"


Probably no more so than "4catmom" or "OriginalRealist" or "isore"...

But perhaps anonymity isn't a problem when you agree with someone...

Mark Mc. Mark Mc.
May '16

To the cancer center, yes Darwin, decisions such as these are to be made using facts--the fact is those are commercial use properties and whether it's a cancer center or rehab center, the property is not zoned for it. Again, this discussion is supposed to be about zoning.

Jerry, that's your choice, many people on here besides me are using names that do not match their own. Really what difference does it make? You being Jerry G is the same as you being RainbowSunshine. Also what a disturbing sweeping (and incorrect) generalization that the patients are likely to be wealthy which will make them well behaved and likely addicted to prescription painkillers--what you're saying is completely ridiculous and Ill-informed on so many levels.

Anonymous
May '16

Based upon the view from the mansion it looks some prime property for a 55+. And being gated is always a big plus for the 55+ crowd...


There's already 55 plus right across the street: Colonial Manor.

On another note, time for a new thread. This is getting way too long.


Part two here:

http://www.hackettstownlife.com/forum/743650

Moderator
May '16

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