Another suicide at RTSP gun range
At the risk of starting a big gun control debate (and possibly suicide), I am going to post this. Seems there was another suicide at the RTSP gun range in Randolph. Although there are background checks for buying a gun, I guess it's very easy to rent one at a shooting range. I did rent there one time and it was not difficult at all. This is the second occurrence this year that someone walked into this place, rented a gun, and killed himself in public. This is horrible that someone can do this and traumatize the people there enjoying a hobby. If it is this easy to commit suicide at a place like this, who says someone cannot go on a shooting spree here. I agree that this person would be taken out before causing too much damage but the possibility of at least one innocent person getting killed.
Say what you want about gun control laws as they pertain to purchasing but I think renting a firearm is way too easy.
JB400 What would you like to see done that you feel would help to stop this?
Suicide is a something I feel that when there is a will there is a way, good luck stopping it, because even the highest trained doctors have failed.
Without getting into details, someone I knew just recently was taken to a doctor on a Thursday because the family was concerned about her, they were told she was non suicidal. Monday she killed herself (not by gun)
Darrin It also easy to rent a car, then start driving down the wrong side of Route 80 at 100 miles per hour until you get into a fatal crash, possibly killing a lot of other people in the process. It's also easy to rent a chainsaw at Home Depot and go on a murderous rampage. You don't need to rent anything, to jump off a tall building in New York City and land on some innocent people at terminal velocity.
It's almost 2016. If someone wants to commit suicide, it's not that difficult. And even if they don't know how, Google can help. And if someone wants to kill a lot of other people--even without a firearm--they can do that, too.
I find your argument to be thoroughly invalid.
JerseyWolf I get the suicide issue and I am not here to stop that, although I wish I could. If someone is in that state of mind they are going to find a way. As I stated, it is my concern that this is easily done in a public place with many to witness. Yeah, I guess someone could do many different things in public to commit the act but this seems to be a trend now. The bigger concern is how easily one can rent a firearm and inflict harm. I have been to this range many times and would be devastated to see this happen right in front of me.
I guess my point is that you don't know the mental state of anyone walking in and you hand them a firearm and say "have fun". The whole suicide discussion is really not what I am going after here although I feel for those with these tendencies.
Sad to hear. I believe I heard of some ranges not allowing individual users to rent guns as a way to try and prevent this.
D-ManPV Yes, very easy to rent a car. Also to buy one. So no gun control? Why control to buy and not rent? There will always be ways to inflict harm and kill. Kitchen knives, cars, homemade slingshot... Point is, if we are going to control the purchase, why not the rental? And the argument of a car is not valid because we do not control the purchase of a car as we do a firearm. Point being, rental should require some kind of background check. If we feel there should be none, then so be it.
Exactly what in a criminal background check would indicate suicidal tendencies?
RTSP wouldn't, and shouldn't, have access to anyones medical records.
Mark Mc. "Exactly what in a criminal background check would indicate suicidal tendencies?"
There is obviously nothing to determine this and I am not saying this would have prevented these two incidents. One could argue the same of someone with criminal tendencies who would like to kill people but we still run a check for a purchase. Again, not fool proof but I think most agree that there should be some checks done for a purchase. Same arguments and principals apply to a rental. You are putting a firearm in the hands of an individual in a public place.
My point again here is not that a criminal background check could or would solve this problem but if you agree with the rules and regulations for purchasing a firearm, why not for renting? All of the responses to this could also apply to a purchase right? "How can you tell suicidal tendencies?", "how can you tell mental instability?"
Not to mention what this adds to the liability of the business owners.
My husband is an avid gun shooter. He works next door to RTSP. He visits often, but never to shoot. He likes to window shop. He would never allow himself to be put in a situation where someone is shooting a gun anywhere. Unless he knows them and can see them. "I don't know that clown who just walked in", is his motto. I feel bad for the owners who have to deal with this. Nice guys just trying to make a living and provide a little enjoyment for the public. I'm sad that the guy was in such a dark place he felt the need to put a bullet in his head. But at the same time what a jerk, for maybe ruining it for everyone else.
auntiel "if you agree with the rules and regulations for purchasing a firearm, why not for renting?"
That's the sticky wicket, at least for me, I don't agree with the rules for purchasing.
Now, if a business wants to set their own policies (no individual renters, release forms for liability, refusing service for any reason) that is their right to do so. In addition, they can possibly train their staff to look for "signals", hang suicide awareness/resource posters, etc.
Some people are just sick in the head, there is no rules or laws you could ever make to correct this. All we can do is keep close relationships with the people we care about, and make sure it is never any of them, and sometimes that does not even work.
You do realize that the background checking program gets backed up right? And that even though they say it is suppose to be instant, it has backed up for months in the past. What do you think this would do to businesses like this if we pushed these laws on them?
The trend has very obviously been shootings in areas that there are unarmed people. Suicides at gun ranges have to be pre-meditated, and as I said, when there is a will there is a way, and unfortunately it seems suicides are on the rise.
Well, whether you agree with the purchasing rules or not, wouldn't you agree that they should be the same for renting? Like I said, I have been there, I have rented as well as brought my own. It does make you a little uneasy knowing anyone can walk in and shoot but you deal with that. I will not say whether I agree with the current gun laws or not, but I think they should be consistent between renting and buying.
This is not an easy problem to solve and can never be completely solved. You never know what a person is thinking at any given time regardless of their background and there are many ways he/she can take his/her own life or someone else's. This just bugs me that this has happened twice and could now be the new way to do something like this.
Darrin - Sorry for your loss.
"As I stated, it is my concern that this is easily done in a public place with many to witness."
There was a guy 7 or 8 years back that pulled his car over to the shoulder on Rt. 78, got out and ran into traffic. That's more public then a gun range. Also, other people were injured from the accidents that occurred because of it.
Calico696 Sorry but when it comes to suicide or murderous rampage the lethality statistics don't follow on guns versus, let's see what we have this time: cars, chainsaws, tall buildings, Kitchen knives, homemade slingshots and maybe some clowns.
Each of these other methods are more failure prone whether by lethality or completion hesitation or both.
It is not just as easy to use other methods, statistically speaking. Matter of fact, lethality even increases between the use of a revolver versus a shotgun with cyanide falling in the middle however it's agony level is 50 times higher.
I won't post the site, it's adult only.
That said, sure, rent guns. I would guess the site owner has the necessary credentials to both purchase and rent said devices. I think renting a gun from a shooting range for a murderous rampage is like stealing a car from the police impound lot. Probably are not going to get too far.
strangerdanger Changing the rental laws, won't prevent the suicide, just the manner in which it is done. (See: Japan)
Too tough to buy... I'll rent.
Too tough to rent... I'll swallow a bottle of pills .
Need a prescription... I'll park in the garage with the motor running.
No shortage of ways to kill oneself. I agree, it's a shame that someone chooses to do so, and in a public place, but "laws" aren't the answer, especially for something that happens so infrequently as it is.
If background checks prevented this, what about people that kill themselves with their own gun (presumably many purchased after a background check was performed)?
As financial businesses love to say "Past performance is not indicative of future results."
So we've established that
1. You cannot tell if a person is suicidal from a background check
2. You can kill someone with a car,
3. You can kill yourself in public by many means
4. If you are going to commit suicide you will find a way
5. Some disagree with current purchasing laws
But no one has agreed or disagreed that the laws and regulations for renting a gun should, or should not, be the same as for purchasing which was my original post and intent. All arguments presented here also apply to purchasing which is another discussion. My *personal opinion* is that the laws and regulations for purchasing and renting should be the same because you are allowing someone to possess a firearm in both cases.
In a somewhat similar case, there was a tragic accident on Lake Hopatcong this summer where a young boy lost his life. The boat was rented and now there is a push that anyone who rents a boat should have a valid boating license. Makes sense. They will be doing the same as someone owning a boat. We can argue "accidents can happen even if you have a license" which is true but the same rules should apply.
I will disagree. Getting a firearms id to purchase takes months, some people who rent may not want to go through this or ownership.
I will agree with mark that there is no reason individual ranges could not implement their own set of rules, but.you are not going to rip a gun out of aomeones hands if they make a split minute decision, you can try, but you may be hurt.
Calico, just a few years ago i witnessed a guy on 287 pull over his car and run out in front of a semi, it was not a pretty sight. Since then i have always wondered what could possibly happen during the time you got into your car to say i am going to pull over and do it right here.
I understand that implementing the same checks for renting would be inconvenient and may discourage most from renting, but if the same logic applies as does buying then we really should have no choice.
How come I need a valid drivers license to rent a car? Maybe I really don't want to go through that inconvenience of the test, DMV, etc. I also don't really want to own one. I just want to go for some joy riding!
Interestingly enough, I don't think that Sunset Hills Shooting Range in the Poconos has had even one incidence of suicide on their range and they've been open much longer. You can go there and try out different firearms, though when we did it there was an escort from the front office to make sure you followed the range rules and proper safety.
Phil D. http://www.azcentral.com/story/lindavaldez/2014/12/12/gun-shop-project-educates-on-gun-suicide/20296835/
the ranges in my area wont let you rent a gun unless you either already have one with you, or you are with someone else.
Skippy Many times people rent guns because they want to test drive a particular gun before buying it, rental is not just for target practice. Guns can be an expensive purchase and not all guns are right for all shooters. I'm fortunate that I have many friends with many guns, so if I'm interested in purchasing a new gun one of my friends usually has what I'm looking at and I can try it out that way.
That said, if you had to wait months to get "permission" to rent a gun before you decide if you want to buy it would take about a year to get a new handgun.
Sunset Hill has armed range safety officers.
I think there was a fatal shooting/accident there a long time ago, though.
A Firearms ID card is very different from a Driver's License. To even obtain a Driver's License you have to take a test and pass. Same with a Boat License. You have to have knowledge of the laws associated with operating a Boat. To obtain a Firearms ID card you DO NOT first have to take a gun safety class. So in my book renting a boat or car is not a good analogy to having a Firearms ID card for the purpose of renting a gun.
Michelle "Many times people rent guns because they want to test drive a particular gun before buying it, rental is not just for target practice. Guns can be an expensive purchase and not all guns are right for all shooters."
It's probably not the only reason, but would seem to be the most practical reason. And, assuming that is the case, if I owned a gun range, I would give serious thought to requiring someone to provide an FID and Handgun Purchase Permit before renting them a handgun.
I'm not advocating that the government be allowed to FORCE me to require one, but I would personally make it a firm, written policy that I could obviously waive at my own discretion... when a bachelorette party comprised of bikini-clad swimsuit models comes rolling through the door, for instance (-;
ianimal I respectfully disagree Michelle. In both cases, you have to be proven fit to have the right to drive or own a firearm. One is with demonstration and knowledge and one is a background check to prove you are responsible (so they say). I do think it would be a good idea to have to prove your proficiency with a firearm but that's a different discussion. My point with this analogy is that you must have the same qualifications to rent and buy a motor vehicle. You have proven to the powers that be that you have the qualifications. I am not comparing these qualifications or how you prove you deserve a license. I am simply saying that you must have the same qualifications to rent as to buy a motor vehicle and the same should apply to a firearm.
I don't think someone who rents a gun will get too far with any intended shooting spree. They may get one person, but everyone else would have a gun and that would be the end of that "rented gun shooting spree."
It's always sad that someone makes the choice to end their life. Most sad for those they leave behind to suffer.
maja Those that have a FID card would just shoot themselves in their own home and not involve others. I'm much more comfortable when I know the guy/girl next to me carries that card.
sackJB, the rental car analogy is invalid. When you rent a gun, you cannot leave the premises with it, technically you are under supervison. It would be like renting a car and not being able to leave the parking space with it.
"It would be like renting a car and not being able to leave the parking space with it."
No, it would be more like renting a car and only being allowed to drive around the parking lot with it. Your analogy would be akin to renting someone a gun in a holster and not allowing him to remove it from the holster (-;
Ok, so if I start a business to rent cars and drive in my parking lot, is it legal to rent to unlicensed drivers?
I don't see the problem. Someone who wanted to kill themselves, did. OK. If they had instead decided to open fire on others, they would have been mowed down like tall grass. Also OK.
I have a question: those who think "stricter rules" or "no rentals" or "whatever" should be implemented to help prevent suicide: what is your opinion on doctor assisted suicide?
JeffersonRepub "Ok, so if I start a business to rent cars and drive in my parking lot, is it legal to rent to unlicensed drivers?"
As long as it's on private property and you haven't signed a Title 39 agreement with your local PD, I believe it would be legal insofar as you only need a driver's license to operate a motor vehicle on public rights-of-way. There's no law against unlicensed drivers driving on private land.
"what is your opinion on doctor assisted suicide?"
I believe the doctor should be given the option of whether he wishes to "assist" or not. This poor guy at the gun range wasn't given the choice as far as I know.
JB400- You do not have to be proven "fit" to own a firearm, you simply have to have not committed a felony, been committed, have domestic violence allegations against you and have two people who will say you're a decent person. Nothing about you being "fit", nothing about training or knowledge, nothing like that at all.
In response to your original question, why are there no regulations for renting a firearm at a range, that's a complicated question. One problem is that you're talking about renting, but that's not the only time a (potentially suicidal) person pays money and has access to a firearm. That problem exists for training situations as well. Ask the guy who owns Gun For Hire. Had a guy sit in for the Basic Pistol class, sat with the guy all day long doing the book/theoretical parts of the class. Goes to do the practical/range qualification parts. Guy takes the pistol and kills himself. Are we going to require you to have an FID to get any training? So you need to be able to buy the firearm before you can get any training on it?
Even if we ignore the theoretical problems, how do we implement this practically? You can't have the shops implement this, because they would need access to medical records and all that goodness, the same as the police do in order to get an FID (see form SP-066). If the shops can't approve you, we're going to what, hand this responsibility over to the police? That'll work well. I had to wait 7 months to get a change of address on my FID, and I apply directly with the State Police. So in order to rent a firearm or go to an introductory class I need to wait 7 months? That's practical.
All this, in order to force the guy to step in front of a train instead. But you're worried because this is public and in front of people. I used to commute on NJT every day. About once a year I'd be delayed because somebody jumped in front of our train. That's more public than a gun range.
And nobody wants to go rent a gun in a range and start a shooting spree, what's the point? You're not going to get very far...
I understand the "OMG WE NEED TO DO SOMETHING" sentiment, but honestly, there isn't anything that will substantially change the outcome... Only make things more inconvenient for everybody else.
Brendan JB400: "Ok, so if I start a business to rent cars and drive in my parking lot, is it legal to rent to unlicensed drivers?"
You mean renting go carts to kids?
"At the risk of starting a big gun control debate (and possibly suicide), I am going to post this. "
I think you meant to say "With the intent of starting..."
btownguy No, not really btownguy. If you read every one of my posts, they were intentionally not trying to debate the current gun control laws for purchasing nor were they trying to debate suicide. I really was trying to point out the difference in renting vs. purchasing a firearm. Yes, you can call that "gun control laws" if you want but generally not what is debated. Of all of the discussions here, I don't really see any argument against making them the same requirement. Some say it would be inconvenient and I think we all agree. Of all of the discussions/debates here on HL, I think this one was a respectful, healthy discussion where no one was offended or rude (I hope not).
Brendan, you make some valid points. When I said "fit to own a firearm", I believe I did put something in parenthesis like (so they say). My point was that there was some check. Perhaps you don't need the full firearms ID card process because I agree that would take too long. But even with my firearms ID, I go to a gun store and they run a check in a few minutes on me through NICS. So even with my firearms ID I have a background check done every time i purchase. So if I went through the process to get my ID card and still have to go through a check to purchase, why can't we have them do the NICS check to rent? No access to medical records. This will not check psychological evaluations, etc. but it's something.
Besides inconvenience what will it help JB? Your initial post was a concern with suicides in a public place and not wanting to see that, your idea for implementing purchaser rules on a rental place will not stop this.
I believe I answered your NICS check idea above: (re-post)
You do realize that the background checking program gets backed up right? And that even though they say it is suppose to be instant, it has backed up for months in the past. What do you think this would do to businesses like this if we pushed these laws on them?
Although your idea seems to you like common sense, I just do not see the benefit it will impose, only the damages. Any law or restriction in the world uis not going to stop people from doing what they ultimately want to do.
"I believe the doctor should be given the option of whether he wishes to "assist" or not. This poor guy at the gun range wasn't given the choice as far as I know."
Umm... what?
There was no assist- he took his own life. HE made the decision, HE chose, HE took the option. Wouldn't have mattered if it were a gun, a car in a garage, a charcoal grill in a bathroom, a bottle of pills.....
Whatever happened to people using dryer vents from their tail pipe into their car window? Now that was old school!
With only a 71% lethality rating and a 21 minute proccess, the only thing going for it is a low agony rating. One out of four chance you won't succeed
Drug overdose is 50/50 if you use illgal ones but that is against the law. Legal ones get you in the 10% area.
Sorry. You brought it up. And now I am feeling a little blue. Luckily beer appears to be very safe!
so, you're saying that "assisted suicide" is a misnomer and doesn't really exist? I'm not really sure what your point is.
My point is, I'm wondering how people who think suicide (taking your own life) is a "bad" thing and more laws (they being gun control laws or any laws) be passed to try to prevent it, I'm wondering if those same people are FOR doctor assisted suicide.
Meaning, of course, suicide is suicide, and it would be inconsistent to be against one taking one's own life, but FOR a doctor "helping" take someone else's.
What specific gun laws are being suggested to avoid suicide? That seems to be a new twist.
SD,
We already have people in this thread wondering if renting guns should even be allowed. But that's not my point: I'm not trying to turn this into a gun control issue, I'm more interested in the LIFE aspect of it: I'm just wondering if the people who think anti-suicide laws are "good" also think doctor-assisted suicide is bad? I'm curious if they are consistent with their beliefs regarding life and the taking of it.
I am pro gun and feel that everyone eligible to get a gun should have that right. As far a renting guns, I think their should be strict rules on how this occurs. Not everyone should be able to walk into a place and rent a gun. What rules should apply would be up for debate but they should be strict based on the severity on what could occur if one gets into the wrong hands.
JR- I think doctor assisted suicide and regular suicide are very different animals. Mostly because (historically) doctor assisted suicide has been limited to people with terminal illness and a poor quality of life. That aside, I agree that being for doctor assisted suicide and against solo suicide is a really interesting stance for somebody to take.
The very obvious difference in the two situations is that one is typically a permanent solution to a temporary problem (which is seen as tragic and stupid) where the other is typically a permanent and terminal problem with no solution with ever increasing misery for the afflicted going forward (which is seen as kind and merciful). So, do you think that someone shouldn't be capable of being AGAINST the tragic and stupid while being FOR the kind and merciful? It doesn't seem to be much of a moral dilemma in my eyes.
Ian,
Now you just sound like a politician. Talking both sides and around the middle. Suicide is suicide. If someone wants to die, who are you or anyone else to tell them they have to live?
Perhaps a 19-year old suffering from chronic depression and self-hurt symptoms sees life as completely miserable... if they want to kill themselves, that's no different than someone who has been told they have terminal cancer wanting to kill themselves. In both cases, people have overcome the obstacles and continued to live quite happily. In other cases, it was misery until the end. Robin Williams lived with his chronic and severe depression a very long time until he finally just couldn't take it anymore. Obviously, in his case, it was not a "temporary" problem... it's one he struggled with for his entire, relatively long, life.
You either have the "right" to kill yourself, or you don't. Doctors are actually irrelevant in the decision.
I haven't told anyone anything in that regard and am actually a firm believer in the individual's right to do whatever he wants with or to his own body. If anyone wants to commit suicide they are welcome to. If the guy at the gun range wants to open a "suicide lounge" to cater to this market, I don't really care about that either.
I was just pointing out the ridiculousness of your argument that it's somehow impossible or illogical for anyone to separate the "circumstances" regarding specific events and not feeling the exact same way when a 15-year old kid whose girlfriend broke up with him blows his brains all over his parents living room ceiling as they do when an 80-something terminal cancer patient chooses to go out on their own terms, regardless of whether they use a doctor or a gun as their exit plan. The way the Robin Williams situation has recently unfolded, it would appear that he falls into the latter category and not the former.
Impossible? Of course not. Illogical? Highly probable.
It's inconsistent. I'm not saying YOU are inconsistent- apparently you are not. But it IS inconsistent to think someone killing themselves is "bad" yet doctor assisted suicide is "good."
I was just curious how people thought on the issue. Personally- I agree with you: it's your life, if you want to end it, end it. I frankly don't care how you do it, so long as you don't take anyone with you and don't use taxpayer money to do it.
That and don't traumatize others, cost somebody a 5k wet cleanup, loss of profit and bad publicity lol
Yikes, this turned into alot of different debates here which is what I hoped it wouldn't. I was just hoping to put it out there as a discussion if renting and buying a firearm should have the same, or similar process. Forget about suicide. That is obviously a difficult subject with varying experiences and beliefs which I would never discuss in a public forum because it is too sensitive of a topic. Those who have been effected by it will have a totally different viewpoint than those who have not. There is no way could could tell you what my viewpoint would be on that if I had the same experiences and many others.
I guess thus guy probably bought the gun on the Internet or at a gun show. So what says the NRA and their sheep.
http://www.detroitnews.com/story/news/local/wayne-county/2015/12/04/taylor-shooting/76782820/
This guy being a mental case, he couldn't go to a gun shop to get his gun where at least they do a basic background check. He had to go through the inconvenience of buying his gun at a gun show or the Internet where no background checks are required. Once again his 2nd amendment rights were trampled on. Poor guy. LOL!
Redwing.......
from the article "Police have not received any record that Obeshaw was diagnosed or receiving treatment for any mental disorder, Sclabassi said. He had no criminal record, she added."
New for you, he would of passed a background check
And the article also says "beshaw legally obtained his handgun in September"
Where are you seeing the information that states he bought the gun at a gun show and that he could not get one otherwise?
Buying from the Internet or gun show minus background checks is also LEGAL. he sounds like a real sane guy.
That wasn't my question. I was asking you where the information you are spreading came from. I do not see any information regarding him being denied a gun so he bought one at a gun show in the article you posted.
Secondly, here in NJ, buying from the internet is fine, but the only way you can actually get the gun is to have it shipped to a FFL and go through a background check.
if you want to make a gun debate, come to the 2A thread, otherwise, clarify your information, because as I see it, what you claimed happened is false.
I never said where he bought his gun LEGALLY. I am just saying the word legal in regards to gun purchase does not mean you need a back ground check. Hell he could have bought it from a family member too. You have options to avoid a background check.
She added investigators found evidence he believed “someone was trying to control him through mind control” and made statements “that someone was out to get him.”
Sounds like a real sane guy but I'm no doctor.
Please can we agree to not have the gun argument in every thread - that's how stuff gets removed. Good point Darrin
Actually redwing you said
"This guy being a mental case, he couldn't go to a gun shop to get his gun where at least they do a basic background check. He had to go through the inconvenience of buying his gun at a gun show or the Internet where no background checks are required. Once again his 2nd amendment rights were trampled on. Poor guy. LOL!"
Why talk about the problem. Let's just talk about nice things like pets, cute kids or the weather. LOL! Sorry.
Darrin/Skippy/et. al...
While I have enjoyed a good argument with the anti-gunners in the past, I have found that it's much more fun to ignore them and just buy more guns or renew my NRA membership when they start talking non-sense.
... and to really wad their knickers, I can legally buy guns without background checks or permits of any type.
I was just joking. I love guns. More guns! More guns for everyone!!!! The more powerful the better. Yeah that's the answer more guns. Free guns. Yeah that's it free guns for everyone. I want to ignore the problem too. Talking about it is too adult. I want to be childish like you all. Hahahahahahahahaha!!!!!!!!!! No more meds for me. Just free guns.
Sure makes me want to go build an AR...
Actually, lets turn this into something productive... I'm a gas piston kinda guy (Sig 556) and always thought gas impingement AR style stuff was too dirty. I do have a pile of AR lower receivers I bought a couple years ago when things looked a little bleak. Let's say I'm used to a Sig 556 and am interesting in building something nice and compact, possibly in 300 Blackout (a friend has a couple, they are fun to shoot). What direction should I go?
Mark / Darrin, any recommendations?
Well there's only so compact you can go (16" barrel) since NJ doesn't allow for the creation of SBR's.
I have no experience with piston systems, but I think Darrin can help ;)
300BLK is a cool round, but to me its best feature is subsonic/suppressed performance (something that you can't take advantage of in NJ)
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=i90j-HcqfAI
CraftBeerBob 
maxsky maxsky - This is a discussion about a tragic event. We can choose not to acknowledge such events and all hope that they will never happen again, or we can discuss them in hopes that we can help to avoid them. As heated as the discussions may get, it shows that people are passionate about the situation but I am sure no one would like for this to continue. Whether the discussion is about suicide prevention, gun control, or both. No one is trying to be insensitive here. It was tragic for the individual involved, his family, the patrons at the range at the time, and the business owners.
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