Should the Confederate flag be taken down?
Well I know that it bothers tons of people, but then again this is america people have rights to believe what they want but what do you think? I myself have been in the area for a while and the absolute only time I was harassed and or bothered in public was buy a guy with an entire shirt that was that flag, But does that mean the shirt is responsible for the mans actions? Let's talk!
OP Your kidding right? This post should be taken down!
Learn a little about history before making such unreasonable remarks
It is heritage, not hate!
Darrin4
Andy Loigu While is was growing up it just meant you were a Rebel from the south. Now that the Yankees moved south, the meaning changed to being a Raciest. Go figure.
Old Gent 
pampurr I agree many people don't really understand the full meaning of that flag, and so they are not bad people.
But the flag represents defense of racist slavery and represents treason against the United States. Here is a very good article:
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/john-e-price/yes-youre-a-racist----and-a-traitor_b_7640654.html?ncid=txtlnkusaolp00000592
Note how it calls out Gone With the Wind as a very unfortunate book/movie. I really liked it myself, but yes, it contains serious and harmful BS.
jd2 The flag has not always flown over the state building in S.C. That practice was an intentional choice, in 1961, in protest of the growing Civil Rights Movement.
Some Southern politicians did not want black people out of a position of subjugation (voting rights, access to state universities) so they raised the flag over the capitol building as an F- U to Civil Rights leaders and the new Catholic president at the time.
To say it has been part of southern heritage is simply and factually wrong:
http://time.com/3930464/south-carolina-confederate-flag-1962/
Can Germans fly the Nazi flag and claim tradition and history?
Portmurrayang Oh boy. OP wasn't stating whether the flag should or shouldn't be taken down Darrin. He's opening it up for a discussion so I don't think there is anything wrong with his remarks.
So, what heritage does the flag hold? Since the "Dukes of Hazard" car thread brought up the topic some time back, I started to read up on it.
It's my understanding that:
1) What we associate today with the flag of the Confederacy is not actually the flag. The current flag was a battle flag.
2) There were other designs for the Confederate flag; none of which have become as popular as the battle flag
3) The Confederate States were a group of secessionist states that seceded from the US after Lincoln was elected ( on a platform of anti-slavery.)
Whatever positive heritage the current iteration of the flag may hold for some, the group that it represented grew out of a belief that it was OK to own slaves. It has been used, since then, as a symbol of unity for groups that still preach hate and wish to return the South to its old racist ways.
I know there are some, like John C., who are well educated on its history. I would really like to hear more about it.
emaxxman Now now Darrin I thought you were suppose to be the voice of reason on HL telling us all how we should let others be able to voice their opinions and not to bully. So the OP can't open this subject to debate? Seems a little hypocritical.
jd2's link says it all perfectly to me, no further comment needed. Nice article.
darwin 
Where does the Confederate Battle Flag Belong? Good question!
Civil War Re-enactments and Civil War Living History Events? YES
Gettysburg and other civil war military parks? YES
Museums? YES
State House Buildings or on goverment property? NO
The real Confederate flag was known as the Stars and Bars.(see picture) and was the official goverment flag of the confederacy. But since it looked similar at a distance to the US Stars and Stripes, the battle flag was adopted. That is why I feel it has no business flying at the SC Stateshouse. Stop in at any of our living histories and I'll be happy to discuss the history of the battleflag
John C I have heard civil war referred to as the "War for Southern Independence" and the "War of Northern Aggression." here in NC. The civil war literally changed the face of the south. Whole families were wiped out, plantations were burned, whole cities and towns were destroyed . This created a culture with deep and residual scarring. Much like that instilled in African Americans post slavery.
The US flag flew over slavery for 86 years, the Confederate flag never did as it was a battle flag - and the stars and bars only 4.
Skippy http://www.theblaze.com/stories/2011/12/02/black-college-student-wins-fight-to-display-confederate-flag-in-dorm-room/
Also - it's not just whites that fly the flag down here - anyone remember Byron Thomas?
http://www.yourhoustonnews.com/courier/news/ex-naacp-president-celebrates-confederate-roots/article_ef12869f-c509-59e7-8d95-f21a886f6383.html
H.K. Edgerton - former president of the NAACP here wears a confederate soldiers uniform and regularly educates African Americans in Raleigh to be proud of their confederate roots. Down here that flag is not about race - its about southern sovereignty and states rights.. Whole different deal.
http://www.southernheritage411.com/
check out his website..
Surprisingly, it seems the stars and bars was the flag of the Confederacy only a little more than two. It was replaced by a representation of the battle flag over a white background. Per Wikipedia; here's the link:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Flags_of_the_Confederate_States_of_America#First_national_flag:_.22The_Stars_and_Bars.22_.281861.E2.80.931863.29
If you're allowed to step on and burn the American flag, you should be allowed to fly and display the Confederate flag.
What's good for the goose is good for the gander. We either have the individual liberty to display/desecrate ALL flags, or NO flags.
JeffersonRepub 
Huff Post is literally the Fox News of the left - and I visit unfortunate sites? I am so gonna find my lynyrd skynyrd t-shirt lol
You are correct darwin, I jumped the gun, but he did say
"I myself have been in the area for a while and the absolute only time I was harassed and or bothered in public was buy a guy with an entire shirt that was that flag, But does that mean the shirt is responsible for the mans actions?"
So i assume he dislikes the flag because of this one person wearing it and the interaction he had?
The flag, in my eyes has nothing to do with the way people act, choosing to take it down will have no affect on how people act either. I look at the flag as american history, as we discussed in the dukes of hazzard thread, just as much slavery and hate was performed under the current american flag is what we determined, so what is the difference?
skippy, I don't mean left or right-leaning opinions; I mean just completely made up. That southernheritage411 site looks bogus. Did you look into it before posting?
The second Confederate National only lasted one year since the white field was mistaken for surrender. The third national had a red stripe along the edge.
Yeah it's a real guy and that's his real site - it's not the best but it's his views - I'm just saying African Americans fly the flag as well as a matter of pride
"should we"? That's not even the question: YOU should be allowed to do what YOU want, and I should be allowed to do what I want. There is no "collective" "should"- some people will consider it in poor taste, or even racist (what a joke), but the bottom line is- it's none of their damn business.
"should *I*" is the question. There IS NO collective "we", except when discussing RIGHTS and LIBERTIES.
Wal-Mart thinks it's made a good decision, then it can reap the benefits of, or the consequences of, their actions. Just like the Dixie Chicks did.
"If you're allowed to step on and burn the American flag, you should be allowed to fly and display the Confederate flag"
correct as individuals we are allowed to burn the American flag and therefore should be allowed to fly the Battle Flag.... the question is should a Gov't Building fly the battle flag? Last i checked the Gov't is not in the flag burning business so your analogy doesn't fly with this debate. pun intended.
Okay, the question then is "should you, should I, and should others".
I still prefer "should we".
"I'm just saying African Americans fly the flag as well as a matter of pride".
Looks like it's just one guy. For any belief, you can always find one guy.
You can prefer whatever you like- there is no "we" LOL
If the question is "should you, should I, should others".... YOU, I, and OTHERS .... SHOULD be able to decide for ourselves! YOU shouldn't decide for ME, I shouldn't decide for YOU!
south carolina shopuld take it off the state house,
the civil war is over, the south lost, get over it
if individual south carolina politicians want to display it, then they can hang it off their front porches, and their cars and wear lapel pins if they desire
but the state house? and state buildings? not any more, its way past time to take them down
BrotherDog 
sallysimpson Once again JR misses the point no one is saying that the battle flag cannot be displayed just not on state property unless it's a memorial to the Civil War
In the wake of the Charleston shooting we're poised to go through the same four step routine we've all become way too used to after events like this.
Fight about gun control
Discuss the amorphous "mental health" problem without any specifics
Bicker about something other than the actual problem. For instance, flying the
confederate flag.
Get bored and forget about it.
I regards to the fact that the Confederacy lost the war - should we ban English flags as well? They lost the Revolutionary War - they are flown on government buildings.
The federal government doesn't have the power to decide what flags are raised at state buildings - that again is a states rights issue.. GSA 1.3
+100 Skippy!
So true, look at us, in the wake of a mass murder, we are turning and blaming a flag......
Thread after thread, it is mighty interesting who is defending racism time and time again.
You know who you are, no matter how hard you deny it.
DeaconBlus In the broader sense, what flags should govt buildings display? State and US are govt flags, of course, but is any other type of flag ever appropriate? I don't think so.
Justintime "In the broader sense, what flags should govt buildings display? State and US are govt flags, of course, but is any other type of flag ever appropriate? I don't think so."
Agreed. But that's too simple and makes too much damn sense. LOL
http://www.bbc.com/news/magazine-23705803
In this article a few reasons are given. One of them is that the flag celebrates the south's courage in fighting for its right to self-determination. Another is that many people in the south have ancestors who fought in the civil war. This flag serves as a way to honor those ancestors, regardless of whether or not we think that the principles they were fighting for were misguided.
What concerns me JD2 is you have have seen something that offends you, so rather than working through an existing processes for change, you think we need a federal law that controls a states expression of something that offends you.
Why?
Perhaps you see the potential negative impacts?
So then you should be all for a federal law banning certain kinds of marriages that the majority finds offensive?
Or a federal law banning some kinds of speech that the majority finds offensive?
Or a federal law banning external displays of religion that the majority finds offensive? - Should Hindu's be banned from displaying a swastika which they consider good luck?
The SC government did not turn this child into a mass murderer - the idea that you would use the deaths of innocents to promote your liberal political agenda offends me.
Also it's not the "Confederate Flag," it is the flag of Robert E. Lee's battalion in Virginia. As was discussed here - this was never "the Confederate flag." Robert E. Lee being highly respected by both sides (and courted to lead the both Armies) famously chose to lead the South rather than the Union out of loyalty to his home state. That is why his outfit's flag is a representation of southern pride - PRIDE NOT HATE...
Right, skip. It's not even the Confederacy's flag. It's a flag used in battle, used to convey the sentiment of rebellion and that "the south will rise again." It's not about pride, it's about anti-Patriotism.
....
I think you just shot yourself in the leg there with that argument.
Skippy, Skippy, I am in favor of some kind of federal law, etc???
Right now I'm just trying to extricate myself from this thread! lol
WELL, putting it that way, states rights trump federal rights.... you might be on to something there. It's certainly a fact that the states have lost almost all of their autonomy over the federal govt over the last 200 years...... hmm..... a sticky wicket indeed....
my argument is that states can fly whatever flag they want regardless of meaning.For 85 years between the end of the Civil War and World War II, the "Confederate battle flag was the object of virtually uncontested public reverence in the South and increasing acceptance from the rest of the nation." The problems came in when the 1954 landmark Supreme Court decision in Brown v. Board of Education of Topeka came forth that people begin to see the flag as a symbol of hatred.
JR need to disagree there - According to the Supremacy Clause (Article VI, clause 2) of the United States Constitution
"This Constitution, and the laws of the United States which shall be made in pursuance thereof; and all treaties made, or which shall be made, under the authority of the United States, shall be the supreme law of the land; and the judges in every state shall be bound thereby, anything in the Constitution or laws of any State to the contrary notwithstanding."
I like your view - just saying in this case it is not necessarily correct
See Also - Altria Group v. Good, 555 U.S. 70 (2008), a federal law that conflicts with a state law will trump, or "preempt", that state law:
Consistent with that command, we have long recognized that state laws that conflict with federal law are "without effect." Maryland v. Louisiana, 451 U. S. 725, 746 (1981)
Skippy-
yeah, I don't know.... I still say it's a sticky wicket....
In American political discourse, states' rights refers to political powers reserved for the U.S. state governments rather than the federal government according to the United States Constitution, reflecting especially the enumerated powers of Congress and the Tenth Amendment. The enumerated powers that are listed in the Constitution include exclusive federal powers, as well as concurrent powers that are shared with the states, and all of those powers are contrasted with the reserved powers — also called states' rights — that only the states possess
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/States'_rights
yeah I agree - its a hot mess - lets go shoot and have a beverage as free persons and discuss.Banning slavery in the territories discriminated against states that allowed slavery, making them second-class states. In 1857 the Supreme Court sided with the states' rights supporters, declaring in Dred Scott v. Sandford that Congress had no authority to regulate slavery in the territories.- wow - similar discussion LOL
"lets go shoot and have a beverage as free persons and discuss"
Got a state in mind? LOL
Good luck getting a gun through Newark airport... it SHOULD be easy per FOPA, but this is NJ we're talking about...
Mark Mc. He can fly through ABE to RDU - if the plane lands unexpectedly don't pick up your bags !!!! I got plenty of guns to shoot if you don't wanna bring yours
As soon as I get my compound there's an open invitation to a select few here... they all know who they are ;)
Yep, you're good. Maybe I should amend it... everyone is invited EXCEPT for a select few lol
I vote Darwin can come but may be under strict supervision while on the range - he has expressed some less than 2A friendly views lol - doesn't mean I wont cook you lunch on the BBQ lol
Ha i got stuck with a liberal label too easily on HL because I'm not as far right as some On here. I'm a right in the middle Independent.
We seem to all be getting caught up in these almost monthly diversions while the National Debt keeps spiraling out of control. No outcry or outrage from our politicians, the media or the public. Also, the Veterans Affairs fiasco from a year ago is getting worse and no coverage or outrage. Waits for appointments in the 30 day and over category is 50% higher than it was at the time the story broke. Obama said he was going to fix it but it seems to be going in the wrong direction. My son is going issues with the VA and I can tell you it is a complete nightmare. The bureaucracy is unbelievable and no one seems to care. The NY Times ran an article on this 3 days ago.
kb2755 obama cant fix jack, just messes up everything and then blames the republicans, sneering at them all the while,
flag should still come down'
and yes the debt is out of control, and the VA is getting worse, tell me again how this administration supports our troops?
Gadfly I too have noticed a sudden change in darwin's perspectives on multiple topics.........Who are you and what did you do with darwin!?!?!?!?!
Hope i made the cut Mark, i still have to fulfill a invite from skippy, but i see a week long shooting trip coming on with multiple stops!!!!
Next mg will be asking to come, speaking of mistergoogle, where has he been?
"i see a week long shooting trip coming on with multiple stops!!!!"
i'd like to partake,
how about an anuual HL competitive shoot? calico? you in? Your husband as well? Ian? gadfly? you guys too!!, mark, darrin, JR, skippy, (oldred???, you down with this?), anybody else i forgot to add? how abut you caged?
5 shots each at: 50 yards off hand, 50 yard bench, 25 yrd offhand with .22's,
3 shots each at: 50 yard offhand with a paper turkey target , 50 yard rest at a paper ground hog target
10 shots at 25 yard pistol (any caliber)
1 shot at: 100 yard 'X', closest to the center of the 'X' wins the match.
scoring gets a -3 for scopes, and a +3 for black powder, come on now, use iron sights, put on the big boy pants!
1 dollar charge for re-entries, only your last target counts, (not your highest score), if you re-enter a match, that's the only score that counts for that event!
clay bird match in the middle of the day, 10 birds ten shots, round robin tie breakers,
no beer allowed until all the ammo is locked up and we close the range at the end of the match. (that's a firm rule with me, no exceptions)
if we do it right we can get a good tradition going.
who's in?
Imagine, for a minute, that whoever manages the flag at the state house had simply lowered the flag, this would not be an issue --- It's about respect for all --- .
Even if you want to argue that the flag is not racist, by not lowering the flag it was surely a sign of racism. If the shooting had targeted a group of anglo americans, it would have been lowered immediately.
If it truly is a symbol of southern pride and history, then it's recent use has displayed that southerners are rude and disrespectful.
trekster3- JR unless I'm mistaken there is no effort to ban flying the flay on your lawn, or any other individuals lawn. The issue is that it is sanctioned by the state government and the citizens are up in arms and trying to change the law. I agree it is a state issue, and the state is susceptible to the vagaries of the voting public.
There is no effort to prevent any store from selling it, but many individual store are deciding that selling it is counter to their individual mores. Like the policticians in SC who are quickly changing their stripes to avoid backlash, they are acting in their own best interests.
Personally I think its offensive, won't fly one and think those that do are displaying wrong headed ideals for all to see. I also think everyone has a right to behave like an idiot, I encourage it, as it make identification much easier.
Agust I disagree trekster - people die every day yet flags are rarely lowered. To make matters worse, what are the usual reasons for lowering flags? Sometimes it is due to a national tragedy, but more often than not its because of the death of a government official or in memorial to government servants - government being the focus. Lowering the flag for citizens is a rare occurrence.
I don't think any flags should have been lowered for this tragedy. If they were, then the logic for lowering them would mean most flags would rarely fly full mast.
Justintime - I guess being a state senator is not enough of a government official for you---
I'm in BD. Except you've got too many rules there, lol. I agree with the "no beer" rule, but I think best target (not last target) wins... no need for a friendly shoot to be so structured, imo.
We need a contest for 100 yard rifle with IRONS ONLY. We'll call it the "Big Boy round" LOL
Speaking of which, I'm going to have some time off next week.... if anyone might be interested in hitting the range......
jr - only having the last entry count is to avoid competitors re-entering all day long hoping for a slightly higher score, i have run shoots and believe me, this one rule makes a big difference. i hae know some guys who will shoot up boxes of ammo, just hoping to get a point or two higher,
not fair, if you believe in yourself, then you gots to go all in on your target, period,
I usually do such "friendly" competitions more like "everyone shoots the same number of times, highest (not last) score wins"... but whatever. I'm not a "competitor" anyway. That's not why why I shoot.
I personally don't feel the flag should be at the state building here. I can understand it being in museums but not state buildings. It is a very hot topic down here as most natives wants it to state put.
However the "flag" didn't murder 9 innocent people, some wacko on a war path did. Just like when people say it the fault of the laid back gun laws down here. Again, it was the shooter that killed those people. If he didn't have a gun, he would have found other means.
Mommyof3 gotcha, thx, your 'big boy" round is a good idea, i like it, i used to help set up and run shoots that were attended by competitive black powder shooters from all over the eastern US. We needed to run them according to certain standards. thats where a lot of these rules come from. when we started organizing events that included the modern guns, we did run into a lot of confusion and opposition to some of these conditions.
sorry for the hijack everybody, we should take this offline
You guys could make it much more entertaining by forming a circle with the target in the middle and shooting simultaneously. Last guy standing wins. And gets all the beer.
yankeefan State Senator Paul Thurman - son of Strom spoke on the subject: http://www.msnbc.com/the-last-word
5catmom agreed mommyof3, the shooter should be blamed, not the flag,
hows the property taxes down there? any other surprise taxes that you didnt know about? like usage tax or high vehicle registration fees? any other taxes? ton/ county/ sales tax? income tax?
Here's my shooting range rules (agree with the no alcohol before hand).
Hang targets (steel, wood, tennis balls) at various ranges. 10 to 25 yards for handgun, 50 to 100 for rifle.
Load guns (or help new shooter load one). Blast away and have fun. Laugh when you or your friends miss, grumble when your friends shoot the chain holding the steel plates.
Try your friend's gun and swear that his sights are off when you can't hit anything with it. (I hit plates at 100 yards with my iron sights, but JR's rifle didn't like me).
I like the rules, Should be making my own range on the PA property, but I have to scope it out to see if I will be able to get 100 yards out of it. There is various hills, so I may only be able to get 50 yards.
Back to the original topic (the only things I've ever shot are basketballs and shot puts) ...
Howell High School in Monmouth County has been nicknamed The Rebels for the last 50 years and to this day, has a guy dressed up as a Civil War general as its mascot.
They used to display a Confederate flag at the games, out of "school spirit" but when I saw them wrestle a couple of times in recent years, I haven't seen the flags.
Sports is interesting when it comes to nicknames and political correctness ... Voorhees Vikings? ... Hey, those Vikings of the old days were not exactly nice guys!!
New Jersey Devils? I stayed a Rangers' fan when that team came to Jersey, just because the Devils' name doesn't sit right with me, and I know the stories about the Jersey Devil etc. etc., heard them all when I was growing up.
Brotherdog - Property taxes are extremely low down here. Put it this way I am now paying 975 a year on property taxes on a house that is 3000 square feet. It was 1200 a year before I qualified for the lower tax rate.
As far as other taxes - it was kinda of a shock to pay tax on clothes and food but it still is very low. Property tax on the cars isn't that bad either. I think between our two cars (which are one is 2015 and the other 2012) we pay around $500. Which actually doesn't bother us because our car insurance went down about $750 a year and we increased to the highest coverage down here. Car registration is lower here too. No inspection on cars at all, which is kinda of scary though since some of the cars on the road shouldn't be allowed be on the road.
All and all we are very happy with our decision to move down here. I can't imagine having the high cost of living of NJ again.
I love those numbers on taxes Mommy of3, I'm just another born and bred NJ taxpayer from Hackettsown...I'm just a little curious what is property tax on cars ? Thanks...
Dam Just what it sounds like, Dam. They have this right in CT too. You pay a yearly tax on your vehicles.
Tracy (mobile) Property tax on cars? Oh you mean like the NJ registration fee, which is an annual tax in all but name. Registration used to mean "initial" fee and still does in most of the country.
Trekster-I didn't know the pastor was an ex senator. But that takes us into a tangential discussion about who is deserving of having the flag lowered for them. IMO we the people are on equal footing with this who serve us, so if anything there should be a flag permanently at half mast reflecting that equality.
We have property tax yearly on our cars but they go down each year. It's based on what the car is worth so higher end car more money. Also more miles on the car the lower it will be. Also when you purchase a new car the highest the sales tax will be is $300! We also registration but that is very low, I think maybe $18 a year.
Property tax on cars goes up a few hundred... property tax on homes goes down a few thousand...
net win !
and you can use these in your .556 AR here
http://www.surefire.com/tactical-equipment/high-capacity-magazines/mag5-100.html
At least here in NC I feel there is some semblance of correlation between the worth of the vehicle and the tax - ergo if I want to throw plates on a beater I pay little to nothing to register it - unlike in the people's republic of NJ
I'm offended by the gay pride rainbow flag. Can we get rid of that one too?
Btw...did mr google die or something? Figured he would be all over this thread.
NoHopeForHumanity There's an interesting article from Christian Science Monitor about discussions throughout the south about the removal of various Confederate symbols from public spaces. Here's an excerpt and a quote:
"This week, other Confederate symbols across the South and beyond are facing unprecedented scrutiny.
Kentucky Sen. Mitch McConnell (R) is leading an effort to evict a statue of Confederate President Jefferson Davis from the statehouse rotunda, perhaps to be replaced by a statue of Louisville-born boxer Muhammad Ali.
Senate minority leader Harry Reid of Nevada (D) suggested Tuesday that “it would be important that we look at some of the” Confederate statues positioned in the Capitol rotunda in Washington. States control which statues they want displayed at the rotunda, however, so there’s nothing Congress can immediately do.
The University of Texas announced on Tuesday that it will call a panel of students and faculty to determine the future of a Jefferson Davis statue on campus. Over the weekend, vandals defaced the statue.
Tennessee has seen a bipartisan call to remove a bust of Nathan Bedford Forrest, a Ku Klux Klan leader, from its Senate chamber alcove.
Alabama Gov. Robert Bentley (R) ordered the removal of the Confederate battle flag and three other Confederate symbols from the State Capitol grounds Wednesday.
Mississippi Sens. Roger Wicker and Thad Cochran, both Republicans, on Wednesday called for the Mississippi state flag to be changed. The Mississippi flag includes the Confederate battle flag. "
Here's the link:
http://www.csmonitor.com/USA/Society/2015/0624/Dixie-fading-Confederate-symbols-under-siege-across-South
Congratulations - 100 posts! You have been distracted, just like they wanted.
Here's your Congress delegating even more power to the President. All the showboating by both sides was just a façade....just like the "Affordable Care Act."
http://www.usatoday.com/story/news/politics/2015/06/23/senate-tpa-vote/29153833/
If you don't like that link, there are plenty of others on the mainstream media dutifully reporting it with their own slight spin.
The fun is just beginning with this piece of legislation, but you will enjoy all of the "benefits" of the ACA even sooner.
Oh, wait! Just heard that a celebrity had a wardrobe malfunction and made a stupid remark! Gotta go!
No big whup....continue talking amongst ye'selves.
jjmonth4 "I'm offended by the gay pride rainbow flag. Can we get rid of that one too? "
Ok I'll play along with this stupid comparison:
How are you offended by this flag?
Do you see this flag as a symbol of hate?
Were your people oppressed under this flag?
Did gays try to succeed from the U.S. Under that flag?
And lastly what state capital is currently flying this flag that you want them to take it down?
Because that is the point of this debate, there is a state currently flying a flag that a large portion of their citizens see as a symbol of hate. So trying to compare the rebel flag to the gay pride flag is lame.
Darwin, a flag is nothing more than a symbol - you read into it what you will.
I think this whole topic is lame. It's a piece of cloth that people are choosing to give power to. I'd rather not, thank you very much.
I would ask, did gays try to secede ...
Is it really an out-dated thing to spell words correctly?
mr. google may be staying out of this because he's got better things to do.
Exactly. Everyone is offended by something. It may not be a bright spot in our history but its history wether you like it or not. It's rather funny that this wouldn't even be an issue if that wack job Roof wasn't seen with the flag. This is a reactive society full of bandwagoning drones. Islamic extremists killed thousands on 9/11. Shouldn't we remove all mosques in America? Yes this topic is very lame.
Taken down from state buildings yes, other locations no. I have two distant relatives, brothers, who died during the civil war and buried in Mercer County. One fought for the Union and the other for the Confederacy. If someone wants to place the battle flag on the grave of the Confederate soldier they should be allowed to...
iJay I've seen the stars and bars on pickup trucks around here...I always have to laugh because these people are not from the south...(well, actually, Warren and Sussex are sort of like the south). Regardless, the flag has no business flying over any statehouse. The war is over. The south lost. They get Alabama, high rates of obesity and pick-em-up-trucks. We get Vermont, quality of life, and European cars.
eperot 
jmo517 Wow, please read about the cause and effect of the Civil War. Some of you are way off base with your analogies and symbols.
Soon we need to think about taking down paintings of our fore fathers and doing away with that document they all signed. Many of them owned and profited from slaves.
wake up.....smh
War is over, move on!
Wow
I agree with jmo517
Hot corner The civil war was fought to protect the Constitution's concept of state's rights and the Southern way of life. That is, the State's right to categorize people as subhuman and childlike and therefore appropriate property of real humans like farm animals or a pack of dogs. Frankly you would be looked down upon for things you did to a dog that would be no issue whatsoever with a subhuman. And the war was fought to preserve the Southern economic way of life where 33% of the population was not paid for their work efforts and 33% of the population owned these unpaid laborers.
If a good ole boy non-slave owner signed up and thought he was fighting for something else, he was stupid and being duped by the elitist architects of the war.
The flag is a symbol of that culture. It is a symbol of that history. And today it has been adopted as a symbol by some of the worst hate groups in America including this young lad to promote their message of white supremacy and the need to rid the country of anything they hate.
There is no reason to take the flag down at public places over this deranged haters recent actions. There is every reason to take the flag down at public places because of what it symbolizes.
If individuals want to continue to fly it, it is their right as it is our right to judge them accordingly if not as white supremacist haters but at least as severely misled.
strangerdanger how about in historical settings like musems and reenactments?
this country is not a racist country
the confederate flag stand for states rights to individuality apart for the control of federal government.
slavery is wrong and should have been dealt with at the founding of the nation, but it tool the civil war to actually define us all as free americans.
civil was is over, it was in all the papers, so SC needs to get over it, and they need to remove this flag form state and government buildings, but it needs to be done by the state legislature.
we rule by law, not by mob.
erasing the past is what ISIS is doing in Palmyria this week by blowing up ancient buildings and statues, they are performing an 'ethnic cleansing' to completely erase any signs of culture before Islam came to be.
some here are trying to do the same thing in SC, trying to erase/eradicate everything they don't like and find uncomfortable. i think that's wrong.
Well, now that I can post again, I will say, as I said under Darrin4, blaming a symbol for people's actions is typical America, finding a scape goat, and finding something other then a human to blame for our actions. The flag is not a symbol of hate or racism, it is a symbol of our history. It cannot be compared to the Nazi flag, they are no where near on the same level. What people choose to do with it today does not affect what it was, and all we do by removing it is allow these racist hate groups to win over our lives, and now our history. Unbelievable that America cannot just fight through, if we don't like it, remove it, ban it, don't let me see it. Such a cowardly way to act really.
Darrin 
Love it JR! I think I need one!!!!
..........immediately bought one from cooter's place!!!!
http://www.cootersplace.com/
I was at Cooters place in Nashville about five years. I was in town for an NFL game and me and the wifey went to it since it was around the corner from our hotel.I was neat seeing all the Dukes of Hazzard stuff in that place,and Cooter happened to be in town for an annual Dukes convention and he was even staying in the same hotel and I met him he's a really friendly guy,he's a big guy but he was walking with a cane though.Just my two cents...
No. People should stop being such pussy's about history. Some was good, some was bad, some we don't fully understand. Get over it.
The people of today or soooo damn sensitive.
Heidi I see Amazon has banned the sale of confederate flag merchandise.... But apparently has no problem continuing to sell Nazi memorabilia....
This is political correctness run amok.
guys, anyone else think strangerdanger is actually mistergoogle? There is a familiarity in the prose....
US Flag recalled after causing 143 million deaths....
(it's satire, but it's not really)
http://www.theonion.com/article/us-flag-recalled-after-causing-143-million-deaths-17248
The Confederate flag was originated from certain ideals. Ideals that are no longer legally compliant. It represented the South's independence and rebellion, but it also represented the African slave's lack of freedom and independence.
The flag should only be exhibited in a historical museum.
Displayed anywhere else would be like putting salt on a wound.
positive 
RU Wasn't it Slick Willy Clinton who wanted Obama to bring him coffee during the 08 Campaign...whatever the whole issue i get a good chuckle about.
What a flag has to do with a church shooting still scratching my head on that one - like if they get rid of a flag there won't be anymore shootings?
Liberal knee jerk reaction...we have to do something to feel good about ourselves...get rid of those psych meds or start locking whack jobs up would be a good start!
we have freedom dont we il put an confederate flag in the back of my dodge cummins and drive around town with it i dont care you dont like either deal with it or leave simple as that
matt Ru, it's about symbolism and representation. Would you want to see the Natzi swastikas proudly shown in public, burning crosses, flags with pictures of the clan?
That is my take on it.
The governor of South Carolina, born Nimrata Randhawa, is a non-white, brown skinned woman of southeast Indian descent. She has to ask two thirds of the majority white male legislature for permission to take the flag down. Pretty messed up, right?
LeRoy Grimace Jr, i was actually talking to someone about that. Mistergogle seemingly disappeared and this strangerdanger guy shows up. I am with you, i say it is mistergoogle!!!
Look at mistergoogle's original gravitar, it has a picture of something that says danger, but I do not know what it is.......but I think it is evidence!
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wI6cEAhcMGQ
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=D93o3kItF-E
About 10,000 Confederates went to Brazil that still had slavery after the Civil War. Today they still celebrate their ancestry (with the Confederate Flag all over the place).
Interestingly, over time the whites mixed with other races and today even people that are "black" take part in this annual festival.
This is just a cultural event -- no ties to racism at all. These folks are just honoring their ancestors that came from the South after the Civil War...
it was the democrats who put the flag back up on the SC statehouse in the 1960s, they fought hard to defeat the civil rights act of 1965, institutionalized racism deeply ingrained in the democratic party
It was Governov Bill Clinton who wanted the confederate flag flown on Ak government buildings.
wake up liberals! embrace the racists in your own party!
btw, when will the press ask hillary about her husband advocating/promoting the display of the confederate stars and bars in Ak???? (don't hold your breath)
leroy, democracy is how we run things, the SC state legislature needs to do this, btw, are you suggesting that the white legislators in SC are prejudiced against their own governor? what does her color/background have to do with this? are you making a case that if someone is white they are automatically guilty of something? wow! just wow!
This is what happens when history is distorted. Just think 200 yrs. from now no one will believe the twin towers were bombed or WWII really happened. I wonder how they will spin that, and change the history of the truth. We won't be here to clear it up for them.
auntiel Black woman supports the Confederate Flag. And she's not the only one- internet LOADED with black people defending the flag.
https://vimeo.com/126991396
auntiel is right as rain, smart minds should pay attention!
here's some more:
Should we at least include in the debate about things to be stricken from public view the several dozen public buildings, roads and bridges named after Robert Byrd, the Democrat West Virginia Senator who was before that a recruiter for the Ku Klux Klan? Seems like the former Kleagle and politician who filibustered the 1964 Civil Rights Act should at least be in the mix of the discussion about people who shouldn’t be honored with taxpayer money
http://michellemalkin.com/2015/06/25/humble-reminder-there-are-about-50-places-in-wv-bearing-the-name-of-former-klansman-robert-byrd/
"let no one forget, let nothing be forgotten"
BD you're right about Southern Democrats and institutionalized racism in the era into the 1960's.
But the combination of LBJ's civil rights policies and Richard Nixon's southern strategy turned those Democrats into Republicans.
civil rights act was pushed by , endorsed, and voted into law by the republican party in the face of fierce democratic opposition.
"let no one forget, let nothing be forgotten"
frederick douglas was a republican, "let no one forget, let nothing be forgotten"
btw, jjmonth was right, this is a distraction so they can do some more stuff that goes by un-noticed, like the trade act for one.
Trade Act was passed overwhelmingly by conservative Republicans in the House and in the Senate.
The Civil Rights Act got the support of more than 60% of the Democrats in Congress, but the opposition came from Southerners, who were indeed Democrats at the time.
As per my post above, those Democrats in subsequent years became Republicans, where that mind-set remains today. As evidence see how Democrats have virtually lost all their Congressional seats in the South, where Republicans could not buy a seat previously.
RU --- The Clinton/gore flag pinned picture you posted is probably false or a private issue. Do you have the link? Probably a really good example of a right-wing wrong-facts site.
http://m.snopes.com/clinton-gore-92-confederate/
Good try though.
Lincoln was a Republican too. If you think that Republicans and Democrats of the Civil Rights-era (and prior) resemble anything like we have today, you're kidding yourself.
As far as JR's Walmart picture and observation about Amazon, if you think it has anything to do with being PC, you're kidding yourself. It's about capitalism plain and simple. They're doing what they want to create an image of themselves that they think will drive revenue.
As far as Heidi's comment goes, it's amazing how riled up she's getting over this debate. Imagine how she would feel if some of her ancestors were hung by their necks from a tree with the ol' Confederate flag as the last thing they saw waving in the air? How about stop being such a p*ssy yourself?
I think Heidi's point is, so many feel offended today that it just makes them and everyone else miserable.
Never mind the fact that the U.S. flag was born during a time when slavery was legal. No outrage there...
It really is just a piece of cloth. We each give it the meaning we choose. People see things differently? Say it isn't so!!!
It is with deep disrespect to all the people who lost there life in a war-now it is used for votes.Disgraceful
It's the nanny state - knee jerk mentality. People are murdered and legislators want to look those they're taking action - so what do they do - let's ban flags.
"It really is just a piece of cloth. We each give it the meaning we choose. "
Not sure I really agree with this JIT. Our nation, via the Declaration of Independence and Constitution, was founded on the principle of liberty and equality. Yes I agree that the liberty part was flawed as it didn't apply to slaves.
The Confederacy was founded on one principle...that white men should be allowed to own slaves and the federal government shouldn't impede that right in anyway. That Confederacy then fired on its own government; by any standard, that was treason.
The flags, being symbols for each "nation", therefore carry much different meanings.
well - they seceded from the government first. so act of war yes - treason - not sure about that.
http://www.futurity.org/civil-war-union-rebels-treason-725752/
I think the reason charges of disloyal acts and treason were not conferred were because the union wanted to bring the southern states back into the fold and focus on unification - not a legal scholar
Article 3 section 3 of the US constitution
Components of treason:
1.) Take up arms against your state or assist the enemies of your state
2.) Be convicted of treason by the testimony of 2 witnesses, or by a confession in open court.
Not even 200 years auntiel, now just think how distorted the bible is 2000 years later...
Robert Byrd Democrat West Virginia Senator Robert Byrd was a recruiter for the Ku Klux Klan
maybe we should take his name off the roads and bridges that were named after him? why honor racists?
the democrats put the flag back up and now the republicans are going to take it down,
Lol skippy, I know you did..but I happen to agree with emaxxman on this one. Doesn't mean that you are not still one of the nicest posters on here, but we aren't going to have the same view on everything..
A symbol is what you make it, so by banning the flag because some "think" it represents hate and racism, they are actually condoning that very symbolic mentality. I will still have my confederate flags, and if anyone asks, its heritage, not hate. If you want to argue with that, you are really just looking for reason to argue.
Hey thanks HC, was speaking to one of my boys tonight and we both agree the only thing that can defeat the patriotic spirit is pitting us against each other (race, religion, orientation). Not that all is right in the USA(see jjmonth4), but to say (or think we are relevant enough to judge) that the resolve of a confederate soldier was less righteous or less than that of a union soldier is absolutely absurd.
emaxx, all I was getting at is that no matter what you or I see in the flag, others no doubt will see it differently. Just the way human nature is.
Don't look for any living histories on the Gettysburg Battlefield for a while. The National Park Service has banned the Battle Flag from park property, so both Confederate and Union Civil War Reenactment groups (including our 27th NJ) are now boycotting the programs there. Unfortunately the ones that are losing out are the folks that want to learn what it was like to be a soldier during the Civil War.
Yah i photoshopped it - idiot...
Bill Clinton told Ted Kennedy that Obama 'would be getting us coffee' a few years ago: 'Game Change'
http://www.nydailynews.com/news/politics/bill-clinton-told-ted-kennedy-obama-coffee-years-game-change-article-1.197492
Yes the Democrats who didn't like Blacks were called Dixiecrats...
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dixiecrat
Peace
With NASCAR, the National Park Service, and many others jumping on the band wagon this seemed appropriate:
http://townhall.com/political-cartoons/2015/06/26/131575
The Fed's win again. To me the Stars and Bars represents a symbolic jester to our Federal Government, that if you push us the American people around that we will fight back, like the "Don't Tread on Me" flag that we flew in England's face.
Now that we are rewriting history, we or our children's children are doomed to repeat it.
State's rights will keep getting attacked, gun ownership will be restricted even more.
While the Federal Government gets bigger and bigger. We will be forced into a society of the haves and have nots. Sound familar to any of you history buffs out there?
To the people out there that say it's a racial thing! Your "free" states were not so "free" as you assume. Lincoln used the Emancipation Proclamation as a military and a career move.
Now before you bash me, lol...... I'm not a racist, I believe Lincoln was the best President we ever had and I'm a Yankee.
I also find it amusing that the Christian belief system that brought us equal rights gets attacked over the gay issues.
It's not all about YOU!! It's all about ME ME ME ME!!!
Come on people, lol
Wait - John - are you kidding or what ? They banned the flag even for purposes of historical reenactment?!? At Gettysburg!!!!!
If that's the case, it's not being reported in the news. The only thing I saw was that NPS asked its vendors to stop selling certain stand alone stars and bars items.
I wonder if the nj park service is doing the same - ergo its banned at jockey hollow etc.
I like it John C, keep up the good fight!!!! Do not let the people of today try to bury our history!
Maybe you can find private property to keep reenacting the proper way!
Before you all follow John off the cliff, does anyone have a source claiming that stars and bars were banned from NPS?
From the NPS website
**In the telling of the historical story, Confederate flags have a place in books, exhibits, reenactments, and interpretive programs. Books, DVDs, and other educational and interpretive media where the Confederate flag image is depicted in its historical context may remain as sales items as long as the image cannot be physically detached.***
Here's the article in full.
http://www.nps.gov/news/release.htm?id=1713
Bessie Why do we allow people of hate groups and such run our lives?
That flag was a part of history, but by doing this, we are allowing them to win.
As far as I am concerned ANY ban has gone too far, and is a direct violation of freedom of speech.....so I am with John.
Are you really boycotting the parks John C. Seems premature in that the only coverage is for stars n bars memorabilia at NPS stores. It is a recommendation, for standalone items only and does not affect books, cds, etc. that include it amongst other material. I honestly don't see the need for that at historic parks.
I did not see any mention of re-enactments or your boycott.
At Gettysburg the shops are owned by the GBurg Foundation working with the NPS. They are not pulling anything. Good for them.
Do we need a two thirds vote to take down the Swedish flag from the New Jersey statehouse? That's my heritage.
I gotta believe if they banned it he would know - john is pretty involved in this stuff
TOLD YOU SO. John C's post above proves that this issue has become POLITICAL CORRECTNESS RUN AMOK
Yes, because 150 years ago one of my ancestors choked on one of those Swedish fish.
we've come a long way baby!
"Right, so that directly contradicts what John stated above."
No, it doesn't. "may remain as SALES items"..... so no flags to be displayed anywhere? What about historical displays, monuments, re-enactments.... while I would more in-depth details, what was posted from the NPS website does NOT "directly contradict what John stated above." On the contrary, the NPS quote is TOO VAGUE, and could be "used" or "interpreted" a number of ways...
And the proof is where exactly? The only evidence so far runs counter to that claim.
The cultural revolutionaries are now going after Aunt Jemima, Gone With The Wind, Uncle Ben's Rice, Dukes of Hazard, and military bases named after Confederate generals....
Yes, it's Fox, no, that doesn't automatically nullify the articles content.
http://radio.foxnews.com/toddstarnes/top-stories/anti-southern-purge-targets-military-bases-gone-with-the-wind.html
JR, the NPS statement specifically stated that the flag is appropriate for reenactment and interpretive programs.
The evidence (for innocence) is vague and weak at best. We need more details. But you crying "innocent!" based on that NPS blurb is naive... you know how gov works. Read in-between the lines... we need SPECIFICS. You know how "official-speak" comes out of the sides of these people's mouths....
Looking forward to John C checking back in with further information....
BTW.... my referencing Aunt Jemima and Uncle Bens Rice, above, was just my satirical side being added to the mix. They Gone With The Wind and military base stuff is real.
I also believe the bookstore and sale of stuff supports the living history shows done by volunteers - they may in fact be boycotting it for this reason.
Oh, is that how it works? You think all rumors should be taken as gospel until evidence is provided to disprove them? Now I better understand how you come to hold such a peculiar view of the world. For my part, I'll maintain my "naiveté", which apparently consists of waiting for facts before accepting wild rumors as fact.
...like you (Gadfly) who believes everything the govt tells them, as long as it already agrees with your opinion. I am not condemning or exonerating the NPS' actions- yet- altho the fact they took ANY action to me stills proves PC run amok.
Your last post about PC I can agree with JR.
If no one bought the flag it would naturally rotate off the shelf never to return. Removing it from sale is an act of marketing, an attempt to maintain the "right" public image.
The removal isn't about the flag or its meaning, it's about how the organization is perceived.
Darin, just have to ask, how is your heritage connected to the confederate flag? Not picking a fight, honest, just don't see you as a good ole bama boy.
strangerGOOGLE,
Clearly you have never been to Darrin's house, or met him. LOL
Seems the NPS issued two statements. One TP the living historians that I will share when I get home, and one to the paying general public. They feel if the public knows there are no benefactors, they won't pay to come to the museum lol.
Mistergoogle, to answer you question without getting into a debate over how I should feel based off what others think my family ties are, when they came to the states, my family started off in Alabama actually.
http://www.al.com/news/index.ssf/2015/06/alabama_confederate_flag_rally.html
word is rally in Alabama, shouldn't have to worry about any riots, we know how to act like adults......
This is going way, way, way too far.
It is so crazy how people have 2 different sides. I mean facts are facts no? So what is the absolute 100% facts about the history of the flag. Facts cannot be denied! So what is the fact? What is the exact fact behind the flag is it or is it not having to do with slavery and if so then why is it ok to endorse it just because we are in the usa?
Darrin who is the "we" in your statement?? Are you from Alabama that you would include yourself in the group at the rally? Or are you making a racial comment?
BTW thanks darrin I appreciate not just yours but everyone remarks. This is how people are supposed to act. Talk about things find a conclusion find a way "open talk".
"What is the exact fact behind the flag is it or is it not having to do with slavery and if so then why is it ok to endorse it just because we are in the usa?"
There is no "100%"- that flag represents several things, not one thing. The antis would have you think it stood for slavery ONLY. That is false. And frankly, it didn't "stand for" slavery anyway- besides the fact it's the battle flag (that was later adopted as the Confederate States flag), it stands for states rights, standing up to what you perceive to be a tyrannical govt.
It could also stand for many of the atrocities allowed permitted by President Lincoln- who is not quite the "savior" everyone thinks he is.... the "scorched earth" policy used by the Union Army was atrocious. But that's probably for another thread, because "the Civil War was about slavery" is a 1st grader's education on the subject.
"just because we are in the USA?"
It's called the First Amendment
Facts are fun.
Compassion and common decency are more impressive.
Law is reality. If people want the flag down, they need to support and vote for legislative representatives who will vote it off the pole by a 2/3 majority vote. Get out and vote SC!
maja Just do the right thing, my God this is not even a debate, the only debate is why its been up there for so long, its disgusting. By the way you lost down there get over it
doctor k 16 http://atlanta.cbslocal.com/2015/06/22/facebook-petition-calls-for-national-burn-the-confederate-flag-day/
wow, just wow.......nothing shows appreciation for our forefathers who lost their lives like burning the flag that they fought and lost their lives for.....
"If people want the flag down, they need to support and vote for legislative representatives who will vote it off the pole by a 2/3 majority vote."
maja is quite correct; we rule by law, not by mob,
it was the racist dixie democrats in the 1960s who put the confederate flag back up on the state house to show resistance to the civil rights movement and now in the new millennium the republicans are going to vote take it down,
this is a good thing and is the process of how it is supposed to be done.
Meanwhile it looks to be a banner year for stars n bars sales as they are flying off the shelves especially in SC where locals fear the Federal Government will be forcing flag registration soon and demanding background checks for new buyers.
Meanwhile it looks to be a banner year for stars n bars sales as they are flying off the shelves especially in SC where locals fear the Federal Government will be forcing flag registration soon and demanding background checks for new buyers.
strangerdanger
ok, with this post I think it's safe to say that strangerdanger = mistergoogle. Welcome back, mg... why the name change?
It may be as simple as getting busted at work, playing on company time. We all know the very lengthy posts from mistergoogle, and all the links that were included in those posts. All that googling and searching takes not just minutes but hours upon hours. Many of those posts were posted during regular day time work hours. Just a hunch. Or maybe he's in therapy for google addiction. I'm just kidding.
"Would the real mistergoogle stand up". (what's my line 50's)
Spring Fever Yes and thanks jd, it's been many many years since those shows. My mistake, I should have "gooled" before I posted.
So its not OK to fly the Confederate flag. But its OK to light up the empirestate building in rainbow dissent this offend all the people agenst same sex marriage?
Got that right OK then........there is no law against the confed flag, yet we have created such an unbalance with all these actions that anyone found flying it is sure to be immediately labeled a racist.
MB I honestly think what needs to happen is a resolution prohibiting the flying of any non-governmental flag (not just the LGBT flag or Confederate flag) on government property - the government should not purport to advocate any group or individual in deference to others.
Many people feel offended that in judeo-christian teachings the Rainbow was created by God and given as a symbol and covenant to Noah, as a promise that he would not flood the earth with water again.
apparently being offended carries weight if you are a liberal - freedom means tolerance for those we may not like or agree with in this case the shoe is on the other foot.
How does anyone compare the Confederate flag which, agreed or not, is seen as a symbol of oppression and hate to the Rainbow flag which is flown as a symbol of pride and equality? That is such a bizarre and ridiculous equation it makes me really shake my head.
Suze I understand Suze but some people feel the rainbow flag is a symbol of morality and anti-Christianity. equal protection.. they wanted it - they got it.
+1 Suze. it's really a silly comparison but its the only one they can make right now.
Suze, (not saying me, but) maybe because some people feel that there shouldn't be pride in it, or that they shouldn't have equal rights? Remember this whole rainbow thing, although now legal, goes directly against many, many religions, and we live in a very religious world.
"apparently being offended carries weight if you are a liberal - freedom means tolerance for those we may not like or agree with in this case the shoe is on the other foot."
Skippy can you please clarify this statement I want to make sure i understand your point. Thank you.
ok - I get you Darwin - I am just relaying stuff I read and see on the news. I personally think everyone has the right to do what ever that doesnt hurt anyone else - do what thou will and all that - but that's me. not everyone feels that way.
@Darwin "it's really a silly comparison but its the only one they can make right now"
You might want to read back up on both threads, many other points were made, just so happened you decided to pick that one to pay attention to.
On the religious point of things, I have no clue which religion supports or does not support same sex relationships, but I do factually know that there is many statements in the bible that are directly against same sex relationships.
Make you a deal, let us fly the confederate flag, and i would have not problem seeing the rainbow flag, take away the Confederate flag, and I will have something to say about both.
I don't know... the rainbow colored logo for HackettstownLife is pretty offensive...
Sure Darwin - persons were offended by the confederate flag - they demanded it be taken down. OK then drew the correlation to the rainbow flag. What I meant by my statement is that living in a society with freedom of speech - means having to deal with the expression of views by persons you don't necessarily like or agree with - this means tolerating both persons who fly the confederate flag and the LGBT flag.
Thank you Skippy for your answer and you too Darwin. I also understand what you said in the post above mine, Skippy, about the fact that a government building shouldn't show support for one group over another (paraphrasing). I get that. You can't please everyone.
The first amendment is a double edged sword in other words - if one group is offended by the confederate flag and that carries weight and it is removed other groups have the same right to demand symbols such as the LBTG flag be removed by the same token. It's a slippery slope.
Most issues simplify to two sides.
Offense taken depends on the "side" you're on.
Different perspectives. In this case, If you're in the majority and see no offense think about it from the other perspective. One who feels there's an immorality associated with LGBT, might they feel offended by the display? Of course.
Thus my earlier comment today.
Ok I wanted to make sure I sort of got your point before I rebut.
persons is the key. No one is saying a person can not fly either flag. It's being on a state building that some have an issue with. And yes the White House was lit up for 1 night to celebrate a historic day. Maybe the confederate flag can go up on historical anniversaries? Like on the anniversary of when they lost the war? That would be a good day to celebrate that flag. :)
Yep agreed Suze thanks :) And for the record the only stuff offensive to me are persons who harm women children and animals.
Sure that's fine but don't you agree the government is the representative of all people? We have to allow any group to raise a flag or none.
These are not governmental flags and so no government entity should be flying either one. I think one or more people here have already suggested that.
But, outside of government, they should not be "banned" either. I haven't seen anyone in government saying they should be.
I can't list them off the top of my head but I know it has flown over the pentagon and all the federal reserve banks. Many government buildings fly it during gay pride month. Again this doesn't bother me - but once we allow a group of people to demand a flag to be taken down then the only equitable position for a government to take is to ban all flags except the U.S. Flag and state / local / county flags.
I think people should just get over it. Slavery is gone Americans have equil rights. You aren't going to change any thing. Just piss people off that you are taking away there rights and we end up with threads just like this one. What's next the American flag offends enough issis so we stop flying it? Evn tho its not politically correct and I don't agree. if this flag is your way of saying you are racist then its your right as an American to fly it. That's part of freedom. Gotta take the good with the bad.
I dont even understand why I get In to this not like any of us will be able to do anything about it anyway. Untill they fly one over the municipal building in our town I don't think any of our problems. Enjoy the rest of your discussion.
The ones who want to fly it are saying it is for heritage reasons...you know like how some fly these flags...the Italian flag, the Russian flag the English flag etc.
The Confederates lost the civil war therefore their illegitimate flag it is not a recognized flag as the Nazi flag is not. I see no difference between them. Many of them still talk about ceding from the United States of America. They want to bring this country down the rabbit hole once more.
These Confederate States of America had big plans for almighty "King Cotton" which included slavery, treason and eventually assassination. That along with 600,000 citizens dead I guess that makes it all OK.
Such a joke.
Astrat Back up a second, correct me if I am wrong, BUT the flag was not even on a government building, it was flying on a confederate monument NEXT to the government building
http://www.politifact.com/punditfact/statements/2015/jun/21/jean-casarez/flying-confederate-battle-flag-south-carolina-half/
The law:
"The flag authorized to be flown at a designated location on the grounds of the Capitol Complex is the South Carolina Infantry Battle Flag of the Confederate States of America. This flag must be flown on a flagpole located at a point on the south side of the Confederate Soldier Monument, centered on the monument, 10 feet from the base of the monument at a height of 30 feet."
The Confederate flag has been displayed at its current location since 2000, when the state passed the Heritage Act, a compromise that removed the flag from its place of sovereignty atop the capitol but allowed it to remain on the grounds. (The same piece of legislation also requires a two-third's vote by the General Assembly to make changes to Civil Rights monuments.)
So if I am right, everyone saying it was on a state building is actually incorrect, the big fuss was this it was on state grounds.......
The ACTUAL flag location........
But notice how many pictures you can find actually depicting this real location, they are all taken to make it look like the flag is just on the capital.......some news were even using the pre 2000 picture, so sad how gullible some people are.
You sound like a good egg, Skippy. I agree with your list of those who offend you you 100%.
thanks - I say some ignorant stuff sometimes but I apologize :)
I am definitely egg shaped
Astrat - I understand your point but I still defend their right to free speech under the 1st ammendment
SO happy this woman was arrested!
http://www.washingtonpost.com/news/post-nation/wp/2015/06/27/woman-takes-down-confederate-flag-in-front-of-south-carolina-statehouse/
Despite what you want to think, you CANNOT break law, and defacing a national monument IS breaking the law
Darrin, you are right, they moved the flag in 2000 to an even more egregious position on the front lawn. Look at your picture, which flag is going to be more obvious to anyone entering the capitol building.
I defend any individual's right to display the flag, even given the current regular use by many hate groups, but nonetheless I defend your right to display the flag in honor of your heritage of slavery, state's rights, state's rights to own slaves, protecting your right to a free-labor economy, you're right to treat people as subhuman based on the color of their skin, succession, and declaring War on the United States of America. No matter how you cut it, there was no good thing about why this war was waged, there is no honor in the war's causes, there is just the bravery of the Americans who engaged. Just over 600,000 died to protect your state's rights, they lost and nothing really bad happened to state's rights vis-à-vis the war. The only thing that really changed was slavery and the Southern economy ultimately survived that.
Fly that flag Darrin, fly that flag. Be proud of that portion of Southern heritage.
I still say it should not be flown on any state capitol or in front of it at a 30 foot level and, IMHO, one would be misguided to display it for any other reason than historical support like John C. But I defend your right to do so.
This thread has taken a turn for the ridiculous. Unfortunately for some of the arguments here, you do not have the right to not be offended. That's just not how it works. If you are that offended by the the White House being lit up like a rainbow flag, I recommend you lobby your elected officials, hold demonstrations, and try to raise public awareness for your plight. Perhaps, you'll be successful in less than the five decades that people have been working to remove that symbol of segregation (and worse) from the South Carolina statehouse grounds. Oh wait a second, that's right, no one is suggest that the rainbow colors stay for fifty years. It was just one night. The comparison, on all counts, is a joke
Mistergoogle, your last post is just a bunch of hand selected beliefs of what the flag stood for. We have already proven that this was not even the flag that was flown representing this, the current flag is a battle flag. I respect the flag out of the respect for the thousands of americans that lost their lives fighting, history like that should not be swept under the rug. I do not appreciate it when people try to sway the crowd like that. Why is it you say flay that flag Darrin, why do you have to make a post personal like that?
I am still astonished over the lies from the media, as well as the mis communication from people in this forum about the location of the flag.
Mistergoolge, of all people you really, really need to go back into some history books. During this era the north actually reportedly had worse racism then the south, there were many slaves in northern states, it was not only southern states like people try to portray. So our do no wrong american flag once stood for slavery too. Just to name a few, you can read the rest it is all on Google. I love the mis guided direction that everyone always tries to portray when it comes to this subject, go back to history class people!!!!!!!
http://www.tolerance.org/supplement/myths-about-civil-war-and-slavery
To me the flag represents history of very brave people who were not afraid to stand up for what they believed in, even if this ment standing up to half the country. You don't have to agree with what they were fighting for to be able to respect the courage of the tens of thousands of American people who lost their lives fighting for what they thought was right. Which at the time was a way for life, people of this day will not understand that, we are on a different level now. But on no level to try to erase history. When you erase history is when you make the same mistakes again.
If you didn't know the location of the flag at the South Carolina state house, that's because you weren't paying attention. From the beginning of this issue, I've read multiple articles that give the exact location of the flag, and the history of its relocation.
"You don't have to agree with what they were fighting for to be able to respect the courage of the tens of thousands of American people who lost their lives fighting for what they thought was right"
man i can easily make a Nazi flag comparison here...or an ISIS flag comparison here......... but i won't ;)
I have seen a lot of stories re the actual flag position and the history of it's arrival on the dome and it's relocation which was seen as worse by most wanting it removed.
Darrin, did you post the right link since I see little in in re what you are talking about and much to support what I have been saying. The first sentence from the article you posted (and I give you credit for using the SPLC).
"The South definitely went to war to preserve slavery."
The lead to the second p-graph "No. The North went to war initially to hold the nation together. Abolition came later."
Good article, does not change what I noted whatsoever.
"To me the flag represents history of very brave people who were not afraid to stand up for what they believed in, even if this ment standing up to half the country." Doing the wrong thing the wrong way is never right. Perhaps I should clarify. I have no doubt of the bravery and gallantry of Confederates; I think celebrating that in a historical setting is a good thing, we should not forget. But no, while I support your right to fly the flag, I do not see your point of view. Are you even from the South?
I do support your right to fly the flag in your support of Southern bravery, gallantry, and sacrifice. I do say "fly that flag, Darrin" I support you. (but don't "flay" it please :>)
I just don't agree that aggrandizing the South's positions in the Civil War makes sense, I think the brave lads were sold a bill of goods to protect something very, very evil. And saying the founding fathers did it, the North did it, does not change any of that.
You noted "half the country." Just saying but perhaps half in geographic size, but in numbers ---- North = 23-25 states, 22 million in population, South = 7-11 states, 9 million, that's 5.5 million free and 3.5 million slave. The Northern Army doubled the size of what the South could field and could easily field more. Not to mention the discrepancy in the abilities to supply their troops; 90% of all manufacturing was in the North. The South was the aggressor, they started it. They prodded the bear basically because they were losing on slave state expansion to the West, slavery being the engine that fueled their economy and therefore economic expansion. That was the straw that broke their back. Like most Wars it was a money-game started by the moneyed leaders. Somebody sold these boys a whooper like state's rights or the federal government as tyrant.
Darrin, I get what you mean about the bravery of the South, the length of the War speaks to their abilities (and the North's incompetence); the odds speaks to their bravery. And I can understand your desire to remember and even celebrate that. I am a bit of a Civil War buff, have visited a number of battle locations through MD, VA, and PA. I like to walk the fields like following Pickett's Charge so I can feel what it felt like to cross that ground. Lived in the area so I knew exactly those July weather conditions felt like. Frankly, Pickett's is totally impossible especially when you stand at the North's position. Just can't see how they breached the line across that field in that heat and humidity under that killing zone fire.
So while I can understand your feelings for the bravery, gallantry, etc. there is no way I can rally around any of the reasons that these brave boys signed up for. They were suckered in a rigged game that would only benefit the economic leaders. There was no moral high ground in the South's story ---- IMHO.
The North did have racism, including NJ, but it was much smaller scale and less harsh. This was a much lower number per farm versus a high capacity gang labor force used to support cotton. More indentured servant and less 12-years-a-slave. NJ was the last to abolish in 1804 close to half a century before the War so really didn't have an impact on the Civil War.
"During this era the north actually reportedly had worse racism then the south." Really Darrin? Most certainly need a better link.
"I think the brave lads were sold a bill of goods to protect something very, very evil." "They were suckered in a rigged game that would only benefit the economic leaders". 2008-2016
MB, it does when multiple news stations were trying to portray something different. And the fact that it was on a confederate monument makes a world of difference in my book.
The link is out there mistergoogle, just google it, it is something I read while researching this topic. The north was dealing with white on white racism, and also the same racism that was going on in the south, look it up.
But would any of the arguments really change? Would anyone fighting against it be like "Oh, you mean it was in front of the building and not on top? Oh ok, nevermind".
"White on white racism." You do see the oxymoron in that don't you? Sorry, I think I will pass on doing your research of the ridiculous as it is above my pay grade.
As to the same racism as in the South, I am sorry but give me a break. Sure, there was and is racism in the North but in no way can this compete with the pre-emancipation activities in the South.
And who is mistergoogle, who is John Galt?
MB....it was on a confederate MONUMENT....... Not just simply in front of a state building.
Mistergoogle, you think racism only occurs to blacks? Italians were discriminated against, so were many other cultures. You are simply ignoring the truth. So you think only the south had slaves?
Did you really just try to ask who is mistergoogle??? LMAO
Uh, racism. You're talking discrimination and if you want to stack that against slavery, be my guest.
I gave you the facts on Northern Slavery, you got something else to contribute?
It's not on the Monument, it's in front of it in a DMZ between the Capitol and the Monument. Both the flag and the monument are on Capitol grounds. It also flies at about an in-your-face 30-foot height. Just saying.
The flag was first put on the Capitol dome in 1962 to protest against the civil rights movement. In 2000, it moved to its current location but not without some clever protection laws. After the recent tragedies, SC flags were lowered to half mast but the Stars n Bars stood fast, raised to full height, it would not bow. Why ---- because it's illegal to have it lower than 30 feet. Yeah, legal ramifications for how the Stars n Bars is displayed at the Capitol.
From 2000, during the relocation, quoted from The Washington Post: “At the ceremony moving the flag off the dome and to the new location on the capitol grounds, pro-flag activists chanted, ‘Off the dome, and in your face,'” according to “The Politics of Race and Citizenship.”
I'm sorry Darrin, you were saying something about heritage and bravery?
yep the democrats put it up in the 60s and the republicans will take it down in the new millenium
Democrats raised the flag in 1961 and Repbublicans are leading the charge to have it removed
http://www.redstate.com/2015/06/23/rise-fall-confederate-flag-south-carolina/
You guys keep repeating what you know to be fundamentally untrue. The democrats that put it up became republicans after the Democratic Party championed civil rights. And yes, republicans may in the end make the decision to remove the flag, but only after decades of democrats calling for its removal.
John C never checked back in? I was looking forward to a more detailed report....
I was thinking the same thing JR. I thought were going to get some evidence that NPS has banned confederate flags from historical reenactments.
By the way, I read through some recent posts on a forum for civil war reenactors and found plenty of discussion on the recent confederate flag issues, but nothing about the flag being banned from reenactments.
I'm still in Gettysburg for meetings with the NPS. This weekend's reenactment is being postponed until the 2nd weekend in August, and since I'm on the board of directors, I'm still here.
I also have a copy of the notice that was given to every Reenactors by uniformed Park Rangers at the Lutheran seminary event on the July 1st battlefield. Confederate Reenactors were told not to uncase their colors.
htown49years You know what, I think if I were the reenactors, I'd UNCASE MY COLORS. Maybe a little civil disobedience is exactly what the F we need at this point, because this whole confederate flag thing has gotten completely out of hand... at a Nascar race, they are offering "flag exchanges"... "bring in your Confederate flag, and we'll exchange it for an American flag!" WTF?!??!?!? So now the confederate flag = a gun??? THAT FLAG KILLS PEOPLE.
IDK if a lot of you people have figured it out yet, but this is not, and never has been, about slavery. There's something bigger going on here.
John, I know I'm just sitting here in Hackettstown typing on a forum, but I say UNFURL THOSE COLORS!!! F 'em!!!! How apropos it would be... unfurling the confederate colors because the FEDS told you not to.
This burns me up!!! EFF 'EM!!!!
Don't worry JR, this just in about some brave Confederate Flag supporters getting South Carolina official clearance to uncase that puppy and rally round the flag at the Capitol showing us all what the flag really means. Oooops, I misspoke, I meant the Capitol grounds. Because of the children present, I'll skip the picture post.
Ah, it's a grand ole flag. The heritage.
http://nypost.com/2015/06/30/south-carolina-approves-kkks-pro-confederate-flag-rally-at-capitol/
This is one of the rare cases in which I am in agreement with JR. A little peaceful civil disobedience can be a very good thing. Speaking of which, God bless that Bree Newsome!
EFF EM? Indeed.
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2015/06/27/woman-removes-confederate-flag_n_7677390.html
"racist flag".... I'm telling you, SOME people need a history lesson or three...
You know there are ALOT of black people who SUPPORT the flag, right? I posted a video of one of them earlier in thread. To say the confederate flag stands only for racism is narrow-minded at best, and ignorant at worst.
Ditto for all you people who think the Civil War was only, or mainly, about slavery.....
The underlying cause of the hatred that led to the Civil War was indeed slavery.
But it's true that most people fighting it didn't really see it that way. So it's complicated.
JR, I think we have been shown here, two black people that support the confederate flag. Not quite "alot". Well, okay, there are probably a few more.
Listen, I am going to leave it at this, because too many people continue to try to make sly racist comments.....I have a few confederate flags, I keep them on my pickup and in my garage, I personally would not put one on a flag pole in front of my house, it would lead to too much bitter batter in this town.
I have them because it represents a time when thousands of Americans lost their lives fighting for what they thought was right, against their own country. I get it that the south was fighting for slavery, but at the time, it was something that was considered acceptable. Just because we currently do not accept it does not mean that we should erase history and dishonor those who died thinking they were doing right. Those people lived in a very different era then we are in now, and we have grown tremendously from that very history. I have zero interest, nor do I support slavery or racism. I hope this clears it up and I would really appreciate if the lame racist comments would stop, nobody is on this forum saying they support slavery or racism, despite what people want this flag to represent.
Seriously though - its for historical reenactment and education purposes - I don't think anyone here disagrees with the flag used in that context. Wouldn't the confederate soldiers uniforms be just as offensive then? This is completely wrong john - unfurl the colors sir
http://www.southernheritage411.com/hke.php?nw=006
NAACP leader has a website all about it as I posted earlier. It's a different world outside NJ in re the flag
"SOME people need a history lesson or three..."
"Ditto for all you people who think the Civil War was only, or mainly, about slavery....."
JR, I think these are the actual words as the Declarations/Causes for Succession: http://www.civilwar.org/education/history/primarysources/declarationofcauses.html
Note that even when the Constitutional violation card is thrown that the cause of the violation is slavery. The Federal Government done restricted my State's rights to slavery. But did they? At the time of Ft. Sumter, what actual violations against slavery had the Federal Government imposed?
Congress closed international slave trade in 1808 but that's half a century before the Civil War and the effect was to make slaves more valuable which created a profitable breeding business. After 40 years of practice, slave reproduction was a thriving business with slave supply growing by over half a million every decade. Nope it wasn't a slave supply issue. Further, from 1810 on, all of the slave states passed laws against freeing slaves attempting to squash dreams of freedom but also keeping the inventory as high as possible.
So what was it......honor? principles? MONEY.... The Federal government was restricting slavery in any new territory acquired by the Federal Government. Yes
sir buddy. The money brokers in these states wanted to expand the cotton conglomerate beyond their state lines. They had the cotton gin which allowed them to grow the stuff in a much wider climate and the stuff was white gold; they were getting rich and all they needed was the gin, more land, and one other thing. The needed free slave labor for the highest profit possible. That's where the Federal Government was stopping them, not in their home states. These boys were in expansion mode and they needed to grease the wheels with slave labor. This wasn't about protecting the Southern way of life, it was about taking over as much of the world as they could. They wanted States Rights to other states.
But let's hear from them (and remember, any Confederate soldier who wanted to know why he was fighting could read or listen to these widely available words.}
Georgia
First sentence summary: we're out of here.
Second sentence: "The people of Georgia having dissolved their political connection with the Government of the United States of America, present to their confederates and the world the causes which have led to the separation. For the last ten years we have had numerous and serious causes of complaint against our non-slave-holding confederate States with reference to the subject of African slavery."
Mississippi
Georgia
First sentence summary: we're out of here.
Second sentence: "Our position is thoroughly identified with the institution of slavery-- the greatest material interest of the world"
South Carolina
OK, I admit these guys are slick claiming Constitutional violations as the cause. Of course, these violations all had to do with slavery, but still, they claim Constitutional violations. Need a lawyer to ferret out how bogus or not that is.
Texas
TX too is a little slicker with a touch of Texas arrogance basically saying hey, we're a sovereign nation to begin with but we want to join up as long as we can remain a commonwealth because Texas, well "She was received as a commonwealth holding, maintaining and protecting the institution known as negro slavery-- the servitude of the African to the white race within her limits-- a relation that had existed from the first settlement of her wilderness by the white race, and which her people intended should exist in all future time." (the fact that the first whites illegally brought slaves into the Mexican territory completely against the wishes of the Tejano's already living there seems to be totally overlooked).
Virginia
Not too slick but blamed "the Federal Government, having perverted said powers, (of the Constitution) not only to the injury of the people of Virginia, but to the oppression of the Southern Slaveholding States."
JR and Darrin, I don't know about you but I'm hearing a lot about slavery and even when they're talkin Constitution, that pesky slavery seems to be the bug in the Constitutional ointment.
Hope you can read this. My smart phone does not scan too well. A uniformed Park Ranger gave each reenactor one of these flyers as they checked in. Fliers were also given out at Pitzers Woods, Spangler Spring, and the Pennsylvania monument encampment sites. Both Confederate groups packed up and left.
wow I don't blame them - so the Seminary Ridge site banned the flag - is that the stand the NPS is taking as well John?
http://www.witf.org/news/2015/06/historic-gettysburg-seminary-bans-confederate-flags.php
http://cwmemory.com/2015/06/28/gettysburgs-lutheran-seminary-takes-courageous-stand-on-confederate-flag/
gadfly I get what your saying I meant it more of a hey wow this surprised me after reading the article statement than a diatribe.
Thanks John. So, I gather from the flier that the reenactment was supposed to occur on (or partially on) the campus of the Lutheran Theological Seminary. The flier states that the Board of the seminary has decided not to allow the confederate flag to be displayed on its campus. Of course, the Seminary is a private institution affiliated with the Lutheran church.
Does a private entity no longer have the right to make decisions on the use of its own property? Is there any statement from the Natioanal Park Service about the flag on NPS owned land?
Additional reading:
Additional reading on the Seminary's decisions to prohibit the ban on the Seminary campus:
http://www.eveningsun.com/local/ci_28398658/historic-gettysburg-seminary-bans-confederate-flags
Smh......people why are we trying to rewrite our history? Wether your for it or against it let it LIVE! !!!!!
Put your efforts into changing the KKK or The Panthers but don't mess with OUR history!!!!
Total nonsense........if you want a fight, fight the government for EQUALITY for EVERYONE!!!!!
IMHO mr.stangerdangergoogle
Abraham Lincoln, Inaugural Adress:
"I have no purpose, directly or indirectly, to interfere with the institution of slavery in the States where it exists. I believe I have no lawful right to do so, and I have no inclination to do so."
http://www.presidency.ucsb.edu/ws/?pid=25818
Lincoln said war was over taxes, not slavery:
http://www.al.com/opinion/index.ssf/2015/06/war-over-slavery_rhetoric_is_i.html#incart_story_package
http://www.presidency.ucsb.edu/ws/index.php?pid=69779&st=Lincoln&st1=
It seems, history has ALREADY been re-written, judging by how many Americans think the Civil War was fought to free the slaves. It's certainly a good thing that they were freed, and something that came too late (which was the southern states' fault, going back to the Revolutionary War), but Lincoln was not some heroic do-gooder who decided to fight a moral war to end slavery.
Just as WWII was not fought to end the Great Depression, yet the Great Depression ended, in large part, thanks to WWII.
"Those who cannot remember the past are condemned to repeat it."
George Santayana
Rewrite? I just posted the actual succession text of the times and you say "rewrite?"
Personally I just find it interesting to discover the past and there is much to discover. When I discovered the different state's articles of succession, I found the words fascinating to show the prevailing thoughts of the leadership of the day.
Many of the historical discussions, not fights, we have on HL put a history on the table that we never discussed in school. I like to learn about our history.
Forget the flag - it's 2015 and churches are being burned (again!).
Another Black Church Burns in the South, the 8th in 10 Days
http://time.com/3942688/black-church-burning-mount-zion-ame-south-carolina/
Pathetic.
Bonv "I have no purpose, directly or indirectly, to interfere with the institution of slavery in the States where it exists. I believe I have no lawful right to do so, and I have no inclination to do so."
When Lincoln said these words, a number of states had seceded from the Union, and others were considering it. Lincoln is saying, in effect: come back to the Union; don't worry, I will not end slavery. This supports the idea that states had seceded due primarily to the slavery issue.
"Lincoln said war was over taxes, not slavery." This is complete nonsense. The provided link does not support this at all.
"many Americans think the Civil War was fought to free the slaves." If so, they would be mistaken. Agree with JR on this one.
agreed Bonv, very sad to see this, article says 3 have been determined to be set by arson, several by lightning, one by a fallen branch on electrical wires, others still under investigation, one is too many imo
i thought we were past this stuff, its very sad to me to read about these things.
what the hell is going on?
That's correct. History you didn't learn in school. Its called lets rewrite history sponsored by the United States Government. Why do you ask? To get to where we are today. Division, and hatred for your fellow man. Those slave ships weren't flying the confederate flag it was the American flag. If you search very deep you will find good ole Abe had no intention (after freeing) the slaves they would stay in the country. His planes were to send them to South America. He was shot and couldn't finish what he set out to do. I know it sounds like BS. I read that some where many years ago. Is it true? I don't know, I wasn't there. But how do we know it is "not" true. History rewritten. We don't know what will be written 100 yrs. from now. I do know it will be what the United States Government decides what they feel the people need to know. After all, they do own the public school system. I feel about slavery the exact way I feel about Hitler's death camps. Disgusting. At the same time I blame no group of people, no color, no race, only the actions of oneself.
JR, you made such a big deal about the NPS banning the Confederate flag, then you waited patiently for that flier to be posted, and now you want to pretend like it doesn't exist?
As you can clearly see in each state's Declarations/Causes for Succession the war was ALL about slavery. The south thought people's state right should travel with them when they go to other states/territories. So they should be allowed to take their property (slaves) with them to the new western territories where the Fed Gov't was not allowing that.
After reading those Declarations/Causes for Succession how do you not feel sick. Referring to humans as property.
Georgia:
"with reference to the subject of African slavery. They have endeavored to weaken our security, to disturb our domestic peace and tranquility, and persistently refused to comply with their express constitutional obligations to us in reference to that property,"
Misssissippi:
"We must either submit to degradation, and to the loss of property worth four billions of money, or we must secede from the Union"
And yes the North's reason for going to war was not to END slavery, but the South ONLY reason for war was slavery and their rights to take their slaves to the new western territories.
So yea fly that flag proudly. Show off that Southern Pride!!
"That's correct. History you didn't learn in school. Its called lets rewrite history sponsored by the United States Government. Why do you ask? " Uh, again, all I did was excerpt the actual words from each slave state's Declaration of Causes for Succession. I think it's pretty unvarnished what they meant.
" Is it true? I don't know, I wasn't there." But you're willing to fling it out there anyway. That's just amazing.
"At the same time I blame no group of people, no color, no race, only the actions of oneself." Really? In both cases an entire economic system was developed on the backs of free labor after first stealing whatever assets the European or African slave had. And you come away with it was individual choice.
And hold on a second Darwin, I hear what you're saying re the North and I rate it a partly true. First, I was trying to be clear on the reasons Southern leadership went to war; the rank n file had many other ideas with some just looking for a tussle (thought it would only last a few weeks or months). But the real overarching reason was never State's Rights, it was slavery.
The North has the differences between our President, our leaders, and the rank n file, what they said and what they did. While the primary reason Lincoln told the nation that the North engaged in war was to protect the Union, and that is true, one needs to read further. First, Lincoln had just been elected President running on an anti-slavery platform. The South clearly didn't think his goal to protect the Union; they thought his goal was emancipation. Also, many times Lincoln voiced his abject hatred of slavery even as he was for segregation, at least temporary. But Lincoln was itching for emancipation if it would support protecting the Union and would avoid it if it put the Union in jeopardy. By the same token that we talk about all those other reasons the South went to war, especially those held by the rank n file, much of the Northern rank n file primarily went to war over slavery and some were just looking for a tussle. If you were a Northern abolitionist and you joined up, what do you think the reason was? But how about the Northern leaders of the day, what were they saying and doing?
Here's one man's careful read on the contemporary leaders of the time, what they said, and what they did. It is very much about slavery . http://www.salon.com/2012/08/29/did_northern_aggression_cause_the_civil_war/
Agree with darwin 100%. And yet, somehow I'm okay with southern pride on their tremendous Civil War effort, as long as they agree the cause they fought for was very wrong, and that their losing turned out to be the right outcome.
Gadfly, they were told not to fly the colors. Sounds like a prohibition to me.
On a related note, TV Land has apparently removed The Dukes of Hazzard from it's lineup... curious timing, wouldn't you say?
http://www.nydailynews.com/entertainment/tv/tv-land-pulls-dukes-hazzard-reruns-schedule-article-1.2277844
"but the South ONLY reason for war was slavery and their rights to take their slaves to the new western territories."
Incorrect. The South was being taxed quite highly (40%) for it's cotton exports. The south had money, the north, by comparison, didn't. Yes- the south had money DUE TO the almost free labor of slavery... but the economic imbalance was also one of the reasons the north went to war, and one of the reasons the south seceded.
Of course, there's also the issue of states rights. Back then, the federal govt wasn't the behemoth that it is today, and many many commoners remembered the fed govt was supposed to be as small as possible, they remembered the feds were to be kept ON A LEASH, the leash being held by the states. That's the other incorrect history everyone THINKS they know: that the fed was set up to be a "king" over all.... it only was in a VERY LIMITED CAPACITY. And how we got from there to here could fill an encyclopedia britannica.
Wow, JR, another example of your complete inability to admit when your wrong in the face of clear evidence. The flier prohibits display of confederate flags ON PRIVATE PROPERTY by a private entity. You were insisting that the National Park Service had banned the flag on federal land. In fact, I believe you called me naive for wanted evidence before accepting the NPS ban rumor.
I wonder if the seminary receives government funding? Or perhaps tax exempt status? Hmm........ curiouser and curiouser
Thank you Jeff Rep!!!! You may want to add that the South also lost millions do to the Fed banning all trade to France, while they watched their cotton rot. (Wanted a bigger cut, hmmm that sounds familiar, lol.)
Am I missing the point? These people are displaying the flag for historical and educational purposes - while I am a firm believer in property rights it is certainly disheartening
I figured it was "more complicated" than the "but but but- it's private land!" defense LOL
I think JR and Auntiel are just getting a bit silly now.
JR, Export tariffs at 40%. Really. Got source? I mean I have heard the import tariff myth, but never the export. Love to read about that.
"Yes- the south had money DUE TO the almost free labor of slavery... but the economic imbalance was also one of the reasons the north went to war, and one of the reasons the south seceded." Wow, this is, I hate to say it, a deluded thought unless you're saying the South succeeded because the North had all the money, talent, people, technology and so on and so on. I think almost 90% of US capital was in the North and 75% of the wealth. Even with cotton as king, and it was, the North beat the south 2 to 1 in exports, 6 to 1 in factories, etc. etc. All the South had was cotton and large plantation farming. Even Eli Whitney was a New Englander. The only economic factor in the South's favor was large factory farms. So sure, those guys were rich, but the rest...... not likely. http://www.civilwar.org/education/history/civil-war-overview/northandsouth.html
"Of course, there's also the issue of states rights" JR please see Declaration of Causes for Succession above for discussion of State's Rights in the South's own words. Their own words JR. In every instance State's Rights is a smoke screen for State's Rights to Slavery and the expansion of slavery into land newly acquired by the Federal Government. They wanted to expand slavery as far as cotton would take them.
In all of these cause celebs to rationalize some Southern primary reason for the civil war other than slavery in order to aggrandize and romanticize the stars n bars as a symbol of a noble heritage, none of it passes muster and the lack of source links glares apparent. It was slavery as the primary motivator for the South to succeed and declare war IMHO and most experts on the war. Why you would want to display a symbol of that, beyond historical, is well beyond me.
Only Darrin, IMHO, has a leg to stand on as support displaying this flag: "I have them because it represents a time when thousands of Americans lost their lives fighting for what they thought was right, against their own country. I get it that the south was fighting for slavery, but at the time, it was something that was considered acceptable." Yes, these were brave and gallant men, probably better warriors and better commanders than the North for most of the War and they fought and died defending something they thought, and were told even by the actions of the framers of the Constitution was right. And, sure, the flag symbolizes that. Of course, Darrin, notes the other things the flag symbolizes and sounds like he is prudent in how he waves it (although I am not sure about on the pick-me-up).
Then again, other nationalities have done some pretty horrendous things considered acceptable in their culture and we never let them off the hook for those actions. Just saying.
I know. I have walked Pickett's charge on a warm day and can not fathom how any man could charge that rise and wall. I have stood on the wall and looked down imagining the thoughts as the grey kept coming and coming.
I've done the same thing at other places like Burnside's Bridge at Antietam as well as the Confederate gun pits on the other side. Or the bloody road.
I can't imagine what it took to summon up that type of courage and bravery. Perhaps the flag is a symbol of that, but let's face it, it symbolizes a whole heck of a lot more. Even Darrin says so.
Whether the National Park Service administers it is a relevant. It's private land, and the private landowner made a decision about its use.
The seminary created the flyer which says exactly that. And, the director of the seminary made a statement about the seminary's decision to numerous media outlets.
The evidence is already posted above for all to read. There really isn't a question, except to those who are grasping at straws because they don't want to admit they were wrong.
Gadfly,
If you really believe (or should I say, WANT to believe), that the seminary, who no doubt enjoys a certain tax-exempt status being a 501(c)(3), and who no doubt raises money by allowing their land to be used by the NPS for these historical purposes, made that decision OF THEIR OWN ACCORD, with no regards for any govt position on the suddenly controversial issue of the Confederate Flag, with the NPS being the ones who administer the land......
Well, I'd have to say you're.... naive.
I'm sure you wouldn't feel the same way if this particular issue was something YOU DISAGREED with. Look, you know how this stuff works- especially with government. And you know better than to take "official" word at face value... you did that with Bush, did you? Ah.... didn't think so. There's more going on here than "private land owners made the decision, has nothing to do with the NPS or govt."
And you know that. You just don't want to... admit.... it. :)
Stranger- Southerns believed the Declaration of Independence meant that you could change the government whenever it no longer suited you.
Talks of secession began in the 1790's
I too have walked those fields of battle and have always been in awe of the sacrifice.
This conversation over whom did what and why has gone on for decades and will never be solved.
I think we all can agree that we need to preserve our history and not destroy it over feelings.
@mistergoogle "but let's face it, it symbolizes a whole heck of a lot more. Even Darrin says so"
If you were unwilling to admit that many hate groups are trying to use this flag, you would be lieing to yourself. My point is that if you ban this flag, you are condoning the fact that this flag now means racism, hate, etc. We need to preserve the historic meaning of this flag, the same meaning that has been for over 150 years. We cannot allow some lame hate groups, or some kid that so happened to be a racist change our history, and by removing the flag we are allowing them to win over our history IMHO.
Ah but the thing is JR, if the National Park Service acted in the manner that you allege, I would be very much against it. But they did not.
And your latest allegation, that they secretly coerced the seminary, makes no sense unless the National Park Service made the same decision at other locations where they allow reenactments. Of course, there is no evidence to suggest that they did
I will not trade insults with you. There is no reason to when your own words defame you enough.
Gadly,
You have to understand that these fringe/iffy cases JR hears about on Fox News inform his ideology. It's the same thing with the 'War on Christmas' and other invented sensationalist controversies.
It's hilarious how the govt can do no wrong... as long as YOU PEOPLE agree with what their doing. Gimme a call the next time conservative govt does something you agree with...lol
We know, we know, Slavery was BUSH'S FAULT. (Or Reagan's fault. )
I see where Georgia refused to take down the flag at Stone Mountain (been there too).
They are claiming state's rights.....wondering how long it will take before it comes down.
On another topic, Greece once the most powerful nation in the world is now begging tokeep its existance.......wondering how long it will take us to be in the same boat.
That Greece thing is insane- they will settle for NO austerity measures, they just want to be bailed out AGAIN...and again.... and again....
Money doesn't grow on trees like olives do.
darrin has a point, banning things is not who we are, the SC legislature voting to take the flag down off of state buildings is who we are.
northerners deciding that SC 'HAS TO' or 'MUST' take it down is *NOT* who we are
imo, the flag should be removed from the state buitldings, in the case of parks and monuments it's a little less clear. The monuments commemorating specific events of the Civil War; it may be quite appropriate to display the flag or flags to preserve history.
btw, what about confederate unit flags, or specific army division flags? are they going to be 'banned' as well? why stop with just the traditional stars and bars? why not erase everything from the time so that no one will ever know or have to deal with what happened?
'let no one forget, let nothing be forgotten'
Here is the flier handed out at Pitzers Woods today. This is National Park Property. Only Union Troops here this weekend. Park attendance predicted to be light with postponement of reenactment until August.
I agree with BDog. Off the public buildings and less clear for parks and such. Private citizens and organizations are free to do what they want but those with "shared" ownership or caretaking makes for some muddier waters.
This should be done because it's the right thing and not because some hater co-opted the flag as his symbol.
I think the NPS decision was silly overkill at civil war battlefield locations. It is the history of the location, it is in remembrance of brave Americans perhaps doing the wrong thing the wrong way, but brave and gallant nonetheless and not to be forgotten for oh so many reasons.
At Gettysburg, the Gettysburg Foundation runs both the gift shop and book store. At first they were not changing anything, Now, the book store will pull the standalone flag merchandise. Yeah, I think that's NPS pull involved.
I think the Lutherans likewise were silly to stop re-enactors from displaying the flag. I mean how can you re-enact without it? If the Lutherans really had some guts, they would have banned hate groups from using the flag on the grounds while inviting re-enactors to be authentic to our heritage, right or wrong and some may feel about it.
As for Stone Mountain or any other State or private park, sure, fly away. But if you want to limit the blowback, just put the current stars n stripes on a taller pole or fly all the flags germane to the conflict at the site either at a national or battle level or both. Blowback solved.
I still say Darrin should rethink his truck symbol. I mean walks like a duck, sounds like a duck........ Who needs the misinterpretation?
Just out of curiosity, do re-enactors use the U.S. flag of the day, with the right number of stars?
Are the confederate re-enactors all skinny, like the originals were? (Sorry, can't resist.)
Our 35 Star Flag (pictured) is the only flag we use at living history programs, parades, and reenactments. Very costly ($5500.00) and it's a complete reproduction of the original used from 1862 - 1865 by the 11th NJVI.
The same with Confederate Battle flags. Depending on the artwork and time involved (Paint, sewing, etc) most are priced between $1200 and $4000.
Our 27th NJ Flag was made by Mrs C. (Took her 6 months of sewing and painting the stars and wording) and only cost her $750 in materials ad $0 in labor LOL.
Thanks, John C; I'm amazed about the expense. Very impressive flag in the photo.
I'll overlook you ignoring my second question. :)
I meant to answer the 2nd part. Confederate "Big Ray's" photo should answer that for you. He just finished having a battalion for breakfast.
Mrs C's 27th NJ Colors (Only 34 Stars in 1862) still shine on Main Street in the Hackettstown Parades.
"Here is the flier handed out at Pitzers Woods today. This is National Park Property. Only Union Troops here this weekend."
wow! just, WOW !!
that's ethnic cleansing done right here in the United States by an out of control unelected government bureaucrat!!!
i mean like, WOW !
hey JohnC, i say the confederate re-enactors should go and unfurl the stars and bars. maybe just one unit to get started, just go and do it anyways, see (and film) what happens next.
We all just decided to leave. The only show this weekend is the Mifflin Guard (Union) at the Pennsylvania monument. The NPS is still keeping this quiet from the spectators since they still want them to come spend money lol.
"The NPS is still keeping this quiet from the spectators since they still want them to come spend money "
How curious.... (NOT)
um....Gadfly?
John I'm sorry your hobby got so entrenched in politics - it is clear to me that all you wanted to do was educate the public and promote interest in is history - such a sad state
Oh well, Skippy, as no doubt John C is aware, politics was always an integral part of the Civil War anyway.
Indeed but it's sad for him - he has dedicated much time and effort to his pursuit - it's just wrong
And with my part time retirement from Ghosthunters, I just found out I'll be teaching Civil War History at a fine institute of Learning (Ivy league to boot) starting in September. My chance to corrupt the youth of today lol, or maybe instill a little knowledge about life in the 1860's.
this 'cultural cleansing' is wrong. the flag should be part of the re-enactments, period.
who is the government official who determined the policy? (name, job title??)
need to call them out publicly on this stupid stand.
tvland has cancelled reruns of the 'dukes of hazzard' in a feel good knee jerk reaction. this is also wrong, real wrong,
what's next? cancelling 'Archie Bunker' reruns because of it's honest portrayal of racial issues in the 70's?? maybe we should get rid of all shows that are even slightly controversial? like 'the jeffersons'; and 'mad men' (have you seen the way they treat women on that show? it's just got to go!
no tolerance for anything that offends anyone at any time !!! (that's the new reality)
where does it end?
John, good luck with the teaching.
I'm sure you'll teach the students REAL history, not the whitewashed propaganda/indoctrination of most schools...
"Teach the students REAL history."It's funny that reading several newer articles about the War how the journalists bias is revealed.
As we continue to defecate on OUR history it will soon be washed away.
Thank you John C for taking on that most noble task of teaching OUR children of OUR
past and please continue to participate in reenactments. Visual props such as a "flag" are great teaching tools for OUR children.
Not trying to nitpick but children don't attend higher institutions of learning.
I agree though, my impression is that the school will be gaining a great asset. Good luck john!
If my child is 30 years old......he is still my, offspring, kid, child, pumpkin, boo-boo or however you refer to yours. ;) ( you nitpicker) lol
Dukes of Hazzard’ Star Rips TV Land for Dropping Show: 'Can’t We All Just Watch TV?’ https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GUDNu7R-XEc
John C - congratulations!!!!! That is wonderful. So happy for you and the young men and women who will be in your classes.
Rebecka It's funny how so many on here try to ignore history. Everyone keeps saying the south was fighting only for slavery......many have proven that is not all they were fighting for, but even then, slavery was part of our history, guess what.....IT HAPPENED......and just because someone owns or displays a confederate flag does not immediately mean that they agree with slavery like most of you think. Example, how many people disagree with things that are done in our country yet still display the American flag? How many people left their home country to move to a better place, yet still display their home flag? Point is, there is no better lesson then history itself.
Maybe if some of you had half a set, you would ask someone who displays the flag, why they have the flag, rather then automatically assume that they must want to bring slavery back (certainly seems that's what a lot of you are portraying), they are racist, or whatever outlandish thoughts go through your heads.....I can only imagine what some think after reading such brainwashed comments on this site.
I will NOT be taking down my flags, I may even put up MORE, and if you have a problem with it, you can ask me why I fly them, and I will tell you exactly what I wrote on here.
Man asks for confederate flag cake, Walmart denies it, so he asks for isis cake instead and Walmart happily makes the cake.......WTF
http://abcnews.go.com/Business/walmart-apologizes-making-isis-cake-man-denied-confederate/story?id=32103721
This bandwagon jumper shouldn't even own this car, sell it to someone who would appreciate it. I hope it decreases the value, because IMHO it is no longer the general lee, it is just a orange charger. Read some of the comments, at least some people see the ridiculousness.
http://www.dallasnews.com/news/local-news/20150703-golfer-bubba-watson-to-remove-confederate-flag-from-hazzard-car.ece
ISIS Cake?????? Lol this isn't America anymore.... It's bazaro world. Unbelievable!
You should be very proud of yourself John C! Quite an achievement and very much deserved.
enough is enough with this like its a damn flag who ever made this post should be taken down
....didn't you say something about the NPS NOT banning the flag for historical re-enactment purposes? Surely you have kept up with the thread?
The Pitzer's flier is most strange, I can not find confirmation of it anywhere; quite the opposite. http://www.fredericknewspost.com/news/social_issues/race/confederate-flags-fly-but-feelings-waver-at-gettysburg-battle-sites/article_8620a4f7-1b96-5053-bc47-e29538fe9709.html
And a reenacter with the flag: http://www.cbsnews.com/news/in-reenactments-confederate-flag-treasured-as-part-of-history/
Beyond this unsubstantiated flier that purports to come from the NPS, is there any other confirmation?
Darrin, most here have said slavery was the primary reason for the war especially from the power brokers of the time, not the only reason. Methinks doth protest too much.
Most have said: individuals should feel free to fly the flag, you're right to do so for whatever reason you deem fit. You even took offense when some urged you vigorously urged you to do so.
As to what people think when you fly the flag, that's their right. But expecting them to ask whether you're a minority-hating, white supremacist for clarity and a test of stone quality is just ridiculous.
So "Fly that flag Darrin, fly that flag. Be proud of that portion of Southern heritage."
But don't be surprised when people think:
“We don’t fly American and British flags. We fly American and state flags. So you’re flying American and Confederate flags for what? You lost,” said Ortiz, 31, who works in shoe factory. “It shouldn’t be on public buildings. But on houses, so what? You're just showing your point of view. It’s ignorance.”
"“At least they’re being honest when they show the flag. At least I know where they stand,” said one resident, an African-American man who would only identify himself as Joe. “The flag is just a scapegoat.”
http://america.aljazeera.com/articles/2015/7/4/gettysburg-black-confederate-flag-police.html
“The Confederacy lost the war, but they won the cultural war in the decades after," said Scott Hancock, an African-American professor of U.S. history at Gettysburg College. Hancock said Gettysburg’s reenactments, for example, have “racially sanitized” history and ignored the real reason for the Civil War: slavery. “I ask my students who won the Civil War,” Hancock said. “The students say the Union won. Yes, on the battlefield. But in terms of the hearts and minds of America, the Confederacy won.”
JohnC - Can you please tell us who was handing out the flier you posted and who you got it from?
It doesn't look authentic. First, it's not written on Gettysburg National Military Park letterhead, as you would expect any official communication would be. Take a look at their website. Any official document is on letterhead, including things like permits and permit applications. The flier you posted has the banner from the GNMP website in place of the letterhead. That would be a very strange way to produce an official document. Moreover, I could find no other GNMP documents that appear printed below the website banner.
Also, I called the park and spoke to a ranger. He assured me that the confederate flag is permitted to be displayed in the park, and told me that any document stating otherwise is a fake. In his words, "don't believe everything you read on the Internet."
That's good advice.
"Maybe if some of you had half a set, you would ask someone who displays the flag, why they have the flag, rather then automatically assume that they must want to bring slavery back "
Ok Darren so I ask you a similar question you asked in an another thread.... Would you drive your pickup truck with the confederate flag thru Newark and have a conversation with those that weren't happy to see your flag?
Singlemaleinnj "Also, I called the park and spoke to a ranger. He assured me that the confederate flag is permitted to be displayed in the park, and told me that any document stating otherwise is a fake. In his words, "don't believe everything you read on the Internet."
That's good advice."
Except this wasn't "read on the internet", it was given to/witnessed by an actual re-enactor, who was there specifically to do a historical re-enactment. Which is my whole point: "don't believe everything your government tells you."
THAT's good advice.
Gadfly- Did the park ranger tell you which flag could be flown?
The stars and bars can, NOT the battle flag.
I would think that if they are portraying "battle" manuevers, the battle flag would be used.
@darwin "Ok Darren (its Darrin, says so on thr bottom of my posts) so I ask you a similar question you asked in an another thread.... Would you drive your pickup truck with the confederate flag thru Newark and have a conversation with those that weren't happy to see your flag?"
Darwin, actually yes, without a single doubt. ....actually did it for the first 4 years i went to NJIT and was driving my pickup, never had any questions. Even had it parked on the street sometimes, and never had a issue. Now unfortunatly she has been in storage for almost 10 years, but i still fire her up once a month, loved my first car, so glad i did not get rid of it! I guess one can argue that the times are different now, but i would still have zero problems doing it. I would think that it would go way better then your conversation would ;-)
I should explain that the flag is only like 10 inches by 4 inches or so, its not like I had a 8 footer (like i have in my garage) hanging off the back of it.
What's funny is that we have an unsubstantiated flier on a strange letterhead, or lack thereof, with documented evidence of NPS allowing flags for reenactments. We have pictures of people flying the flags on the field. We have confederate flag memorabilia being sold at the parks as long as the stars n stripes is portrayed as well on the trinket. The reenactment was cancelled due to previous and pending rain; perhaps John C. left for another reason, but it was cancelled to be resumed in August --- with flags.
And the best, from FOX news is the effect of the bru-ha-ha on the town: “It’s been nothing but great for business owners like myself who’re trying to get tourists back in town,” (Yes, there's rebel bikini for sale too!)
You have:
a theory of government conspiracy flying in the face of the facts
questions about flag definition
"it's not about slavery."
and, my favorite --- if an ISIS cake slips by, then why not fly the confederate flag!
And lastly, we have the NPS statement clearly stating: "In the telling of the historical story, Confederate flags have a place in books, exhibits, reenactments, and interpretive programs"
For those parsing the angels on the head of the pin: "Confederate flags include the Stainless Banner, the Third National Confederate Flag, and the Confederate Battle Flag."
http://www.nps.gov/news/release.htm?id=1713
There's a contact listed in case you have more questions.
Well then....thank you for clearing that up....I feel better now and hope you do as well! :)
Is their a question about what happened at Fort Sumter? Seems pretty straightforward.
no - the NPS apparently lowered the flag pursuant to my previous post.
http://www.breitbart.com/big-government/2015/07/03/confederate-flags-removed-from-fort-sumter-site-where-civil-war-began/
http://www.nytimes.com/2015/07/07/us/south-carolina-capitol-confederate-battle-flag.html?_r=0
South Carolina Senate Casts First Vote to Remove Confederate Flag
Skippy, the directive at Fort Sumter is in basic agreement with the NPS statement allowing re-enactors to fly the different flags in historical contexts. The Sumter use was not deemed contextual. This should not deter re-enactors from using the flag in their activities, at least according to either NPS statement.
Other versions of Confederate flags still fly at Ft. Sumter and the NPS has said the removal is not permanent; just under review for how to display in the proper historical context (whatever that means).
Since I would gather the Confederate flag did indeed historically fly at Sumter, I would think, at minimum, the combined use of stars n strips and stars n bars would be in historical context and, IMHO, should be displayed. I think it's important to display the proper flags in the proper context here. And as I have said before, especially in the case of Ft. Sumter; it folks want to deflect the issue, just fly the stars n stripes higher when you display the stars n bars.
Mistergoogle in typical fashion, why change your name if you are going to act the same?
"and, my favorite --- if an ISIS cake slips by, then why not fly the confederate flag!"
No.....the point is that they were so against making a confederate flag cake, but had no problem making a isis cake......nothing to do with flying the flag, not sure where you got that connection from
I think it's ridiculous to remove the flag when used in appropriate historical context
I think it is rediculous to take the flag down from a confederate monument, isn't that the same as historical context?
It is also rediculous to make such a big deal out of this that common stores choose to no longer sell the flag, or make cakes with the flag.
"isn't that the same as historical context?"
No Darrin it isn't. There are two historical factors to keep the flags accurate - what was actually flown and when. For Fort Sumter the Confederate Battleflag was never used and is wrong historically. During the battle, a different blue star flag was used. During occupation of the fort, it was the Stars and Bars first Confederate flag that was flown. The Civil War happened after the era of photography so there are pictures that confirm the history.
When to fly it? If you have a re-enactment of the battle, then flying various flags to coincide with the action makes sense. As forces assemble around the fort they fly the battle flag of the time. The fort then flies a US flag historically accurate for when the battle took place, not the current American flag. When they abandon the fort, the Stars and Bars goes up. When the re-enactment is done, the context ends. Then go back to nothing but the current American flag. Today's everyday context is that it's US property run by the NPS and the current flag is the standard everywhere for that.
GC GC,
So why is it any different to fly an American flag over an American monument then it is to fly a confederate flag over a confederate monument?
The flag has been in that place for years, now suddenly, with a single unstable person who performed a hate killing, the flag is a problem?
"No.....the point is that they were so against making a confederate flag cake, but had no problem making a isis cake"
man you are making such a big deal out of a bunch of non stories lately. It wasn't that they had "no Problem" making an ISIS flag, they admitted the store employee had no idea what it was and apologized for the mistake.
So this guy in the middle of nowhere town found a probably naive young kid to make an ISIS flag and then posted it on youtube to make some silly point about the Confederate flag.
"Our talented bakery associates take pride in what they create for our customers. It's unfortunate one customer thought to take advantage of an associate who did not know the flag and its meaning," said John Forrest Ales, a spokesman for Walmart. "This cake should not have been made, and we apologize for the mistake."
http://www.usatoday.com/story/news/nation-now/2015/06/30/confederate-flag-isis-walmart-cake/29495379/
the 15mins are up on this silly little story.
I will be honest I have seen lots of different things in life but this is one I have yet to see! I am trying very hard to seriously look at this from a different point of view but no matter how hard I try it just does not seem correct!
Black Woman DEFENDS The CONFEDERATE FLAG & SLAVERY!!
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Gj2tX3O61ig
+1 Darwin
And to say: "Man asks for confederate flag cake, Walmart denies it, so he asks for isis cake instead and Walmart happily makes the cake.......WTF"
sure sounds like:
"if an ISIS cake slips by, then why not fly the confederate flag!"
Who is Darrin4?
Darrin - Historical accuracy is a matter of time? I thought you were against changing history. If it's the wrong one now, it's the wrong one for as long as it has been flying.
What makes it a Confederate Monument? It can't be a matter of ownership because there is no Confederacy left to own it. Both sides fought there, both flags flew there, it's a National Monument.
I certainly don't think the flag was being flown as a political statement for all these years at an NPS facility - most likely it was done for education and historical purposes. Why should that change - I honestly feel that its removal is arbitrary and not In the spirit of promoting historical accuracy
Actually GC, it is a confederate solider monument.
http://www.scstatehouse.gov/studentpage/explore/map/confederate_soldier.html
Seems like it would be "in context" to fly the flag that they were fighting for at a confederate solider monument. Flying the American flag there would almost be an insult.
"Darrin - Historical accuracy is a matter of time? I thought you were against changing history. If it's the wrong one now, it's the wrong one for as long as it has been flying."
So now it is the wrong flag? It is the confederate battle flag, a flag that most confederate soilders fought under....... on a confederate solider monument, seems totally contextual to me
Darwin- let me get this straight. It's not ok to deny to bake a cake for gays, but it's ok to deny making a flag cake?
The cake story is a red herring at best.
The NPS should be ashamed on the Ft. Sumter decision. Check the picture, the stars n stripes is dead center and raised higher than any other flag.
The NPS text associated with the picture sets the historical context.
"Besides the 50-star United States flag, five replicas of historic flags regularly fly over Fort Sumter. These represent a timeline of Civil War flags at the fort from 1861-1865."
From another Ft. Sumter site input: "These five historic flags include two United States flags (1861 and 1865), two Confederate States flags (1861 and 1863) and the South Carolina state flag (adopted in 1861 and still current)."
Sorry, these guys made a mistake, plain and simple and are doing a disservice to their profession. They could have explained the historical context and everybody would have learned, but instead they chose the hysterical context and nobody learned anything.
"The cake story is a red herring at best". I disagree it probably means alot more to the "red neck" in question than you think.
I'm with you mg/sd
http://www.nps.gov/fosu/planyourvisit/upload/Flags_of_Fort_Sumter.pdf
Previous representation at fort Sumter
it's just a red herring because it is a good point, a point that you guys do not want to admit is good
It might. But all it proves is that some Walmart rep didn't know the ISIS flag and didn't check. The "customer" was obviously going for this result and promptly took and printed the pic.
Matter of fact it turns out it was a disgruntled turned-down Confederate Flag cake guy who ordered the ISIS cake as a test no doubt.
http://m.snopes.com/2015/06/29/walmart-isis-cake/
It's a red herring and we can find much more egregious system breakdowns in much more secure systems than the Walmart cake PC verification system.
If it isn't a red herring then I guess we must assume that all Confederate flag wavers ike the ISIS flag too. Appears the same people order both probably on a regular basis.
"Darwin- let me get this straight. It's not ok to deny to bake a cake for gays, but it's ok to deny making a flag cake?"
Hot corner, 1st please show me where I said Walmart not making the confederate flag was right or wrong? I just pointed out that the ISIS flag was a honest mistake. 2nd you can't compare the 2. Walmart didn't discriminate against the customer because of who he was. Heck they even made him a cake and didn't turn him away. 3rd the Walmart non confederate flag on a cake corp policy has to do with not putting what they would consider offensive images on a cake. So Walmart saying no confederate flags on cakes would be the same as them saying no giant penises drawn on cakes.
So yes I'm ok with a bakery saying to a gay couple we aren't going to bake you a penis shaped cake but I am not ok with a bakery saying we are not going to bake you a normal wedding cake because you are gay.
Hope that clears it up for you
Nice twist on discrimination, but I will respect what your saying and how you believe and walk away from this conversation, knowing that we won't see eye to eye on this issue.
So now we are to a point that stores will not do or allow anything offensive? Well what if I am offended by the gay pride flag?
I would think that stores should follow laws, not personal preference, much like you would expect that a bakery serve a gay couple is doing business and not letting personal preference get in the way of that.
Hot Corner:
"Darwin- let me get this straight. It's not ok to deny to bake a cake for gays, but it's ok to deny making a flag cake"
Yes. That is correct, at least it is in Oregon and other states with antidiscrimination statutes that included sexual orientation.
Darlin':
"it's just a red herring because it is a good point, a point that you guys do not want to admit is good"
No, Darlin', it's a terrible point. I suspect you are smart enough to know that the Walmart associate, working in bumblefrick Louisiana for minimum wage, didn't recognize the ISIS flag when he made that cake, and that therefore the whole argument falls apart. You're smart enough to know that, I think. The sad part is that you just don't care. You'll just regurgitate that story anyway and act like it means something.
"Darlin':"
Taking cues from HH/mg/sd now Gadfly? Et tu Brutus? ;-)
I just have such a hard time understanding why obviously intelligent people feel like they need to stoop to a lower level. You don't need to, you're points are plenty good enough to support your views!
About the flag - it really is just a piece of cloth. Enough already! People see different things based on their perspectives, and there's nothing wrong with that *except* if they want to use force (governmental, of course) to get others to agree!
what if someone wanted a penis cake for a bachelorette party - bet they would make it..
I agree - the issue is we all need to drop the hate - store owners have the right to make or not make what they chose pursuant to their beliefs and the free market will decide - be it isis or a rainbow flag.
Meanwhile back at the ranch - the government does not need to regulate de minimis things such as baked goods - its irrelevant.. carry on
Darrin - First I was referring to Ft Sumter as an example of context. Not the SC Legislature. Yes that has a memorial but is that a cemetery with burials, or on an actual battlefield? Those are the places usually associated with actually flying a battle flag like that. The history of the flag flying at the SC Legislature is in protest of integration, originally over the State Capitol itself. If we've grown up and moved past that integration battle, what's the need?
It's interest during review of some of those flags that several of the ideas and phrases you've mentioned on the thread come from an email that's been circulating around from the Sons of Confederate Veterans.
JIT,
Yeah, I agree with you. Darrin has recently returned to adding an "L" into my name, so I was doing the same to make a point.
I also agree with a lot of your second paragraph: "people see different things.....agree."
However, I don't really agree that this or any other flag is just a piece of cloth. Symbols have power.
So sorry Gadfly, it was not done on purpose, totally my bad!
I honestly just thought you were flirtin with the darlin thing ;-)
But on topic,
Symbols only have the power we allow them to have, and by removing this flag, we are allowing it to have that very power.
What flag was flying during the Japanese internment camps? What flag was flying while we wiped out the Indians? Should that flaf go away too?
Whether the flag should come down should be decided by the people of South Carolina. Not a bunch of yanks quoting their history lessons on the web.
What happens when someone becomes offended for what happened under the stars and stripes?
GC
It's both - there are graves at Fort Sumter and it was most notably a battlefield
work cited: http://www.nps.gov/fosu/faqs.htm
I agree Gadfly, symbols do have power - power that we each *give* to them, voluntarily of our own free will.
The obvious choice here is to NOT give that particular symbol the power that some seem to think it has. It's a choice, and I think at the most basic level that's the argument that others have been making.
Those who espouse the flag in the name of hatred are still going to do that, no matter what restrictions are put in place. The restrictions are just to make everyone who despises the flag feel better. The underlying problems won't go away by simply removing the flag from view.
You guys are trying to morph 2 different things into 1 argument. 1 is about a store's policy on WHAT they want to sell and the other is about WHO they want to sell too. Trying to compare the two is weak at best. Walmart's policy is the exact same thing as CVS's policy to stop selling cigarettes. I didn't see any uproar or protests about that
agreed JIT - apparently the "sticks and stones" theory doesn't apply here.
1. If any of us put nearly the energy into solving the actual issues at hand that focus onto the “terminology” defined - we could have a real, live conversation and get somewhere and probably come up with definitive answers - lots of smart people here.
2. How draining is it to take offense at all this stuff - everything is clearly intended to invoke feelings (remember those?!). It’s the opposite of literal and not intended to be intellectually broken down - which is what we are doing with the flag issue.
3. if you disagree - educate me. Before you write me off as worthlessly ignorant, take the time to tell me your story - I honestly will appreciate it
Skippy - I asked about battlefields and graves right after I mentioned the SC Legislature which was the primary subject of the post. (and what Darrin was talking about instead of Ft Sumter) I specifically mentioned those to contrast the the Legislature and the fort because Ft Sumter is quite clearly both as the initial battle of the Civil War.
Thats funny Darrin. I really didn't know if that was intentional or not but I thought my response would convey the message either way.
My apologies then Gadfly. Just goes to show how people can read the same words and see different things!
Yes, symbols only have the power that people give them. I agree with that, but I don't agree that it is so easy to strip symbols of their power. A swastika scrawled on the door of a temple isn't offensive just because it's vandalism. It's not the same as a happy face painted in the same location. The swastika is irrevocably linked to a painful history of hate, violence, and oppression. You cannot simply say, "it's just a character, it has no meaning or power unless you consent to it". Well, you can say that, but it's just not reality.
Lol, there is really no need for apologies from either of you. JIT, you'll know you're writing my name wrong if I start calling you "GIT"!
I think what your calling attention to In regards to your temple scenario is "mens rea" or criminal intent - there was no Intent to harm anyone here demonstrated - the temple example is clearly done with the intent to cause alarm - whereas the flying of one of the various flags of the confederacy was not - apples and oranges I'm afraid
Ha!
No I was thinking of the Beatles lyric: "although I'm so tired, I'll have another cigarette and curse Sir Walter Raleigh. He was such a stupid git."
Again with nazi comparisons? We have proven time and time again that the nazi symbol is on a totally different level. It started life representing a hate group where as the confederate flag started life representing Americans fighting for what they thought was right. The big difference is that we are allowing a symbol that has been around for 150 plus years to morph into something it was never intended to be. The nazi flag had its intentions from day one. .... Totally different!
"Yes, symbols only have the power that people give them. I agree with that, but I don't agree that it is so easy to strip symbols of their power. A swastika scrawled on the door of a temple isn't offensive just because it's vandalism. It's not the same as a happy face painted in the same location. The swastika is irrevocably linked to a painful history of hate, violence, and oppression. You cannot simply say, "it's just a character, it has no meaning or power unless you consent to it". Well, you can say that, but it's just not reality."
While I agree with this, taking the next step and *BANNING* such symbols, imo, is still thought police, and a violation of the 1st Amendment. imo. You can't legislate the hatred out of people, and many times attempting to only breeds more hatred.
In addition, because I see the "thought" involved similar in the 2 issues, , I also 100% completely disagree with the entire "hate crimes" issue, and think it's unconstitutional. A crime is a crime. The penalty should not be any more because you killed a cop, or because it was racially motivated, or sexually-orientation motivated.
@JR "I also 100% completely disagree with the entire "hate crimes" issue, and think it's unconstitutional. A crime is a crime. The penalty should not be any more because you killed a cop, or because it was racially motivated, or sexually-orientation motivated."
I agree with that statement JR, what is the difference?
"While I agree with this, taking the next step and *BANNING* such symbols, imo, is still thought police, and a violation of the 1st Amendment. imo. You can't legislate the hatred out of people, and many times attempting to only breeds more hate."
I agree with this. The 1st Amendment should rule and such symbols should not be banned. However, if a symbol like that were displayed at the state capital building because of, not in spite of, the symbol's connection to hatred and oppression, then Im in favor of removing it.
The confederate flag was first raised at the SC statehouse in opposition to the civil rights movement and the integration of blacks into schools, lunch counters, and other public facilities that were "whites only" until that time. It wasn't raised to honor the valor of confederate soldiers, it was raised because of its association with a culture of the subjugation of blacks.
Gee, in the great name calling turned love affair triangle between JIT, Gadfly and skippy, only strangerdanger caught the shrapnel of collateral damage without daresay a hint of remorse.
"Taking cues from HH/mg/sd now Gadfly? Et tu Brutus? ;-)"
How dare you lump me in with these hooligans. Talk about holding a grudge. People who live in glass houses should just be quiet.
"mendacem memorem esse oportet"
"cacoethes carpendi"
Lol hey I resemble that remark - I think we're all smart with big mouths and like to debate - it's fun
"mendacem memorem esse oportet"
HH/mg/sd, my comment wasn't an invitation for you to remind everyone of its truth, rather it was in response to my misunderstanding Gadfly. I suppose I deserved that though.
Btw, I do apologize. Your latest moniker has been very well behaved and I haven't been. Carry on and ignore this minor diversion...
"The confederate flag was FIRST raised at the SC statehouse in opposition to the civil rights movement and the integration of blacks into schools, lunch counters, and other public facilities that were "whites only" until that time. It wasn't raised to honor the valor of confederate soldiers, it was raised because of its association with a culture of the subjugation of blacks."
[EMPHASIS MINE]
So then, we should also let the PC bandwagon roll, "whitewashing" the Confederate flag from our culture? Because that is what has been happening lately. I realize you can't tell a retailer like Amazon that they "aren't allowed to ban the confederate flag", but amazon, wal-mart, eBay, and who knows who else is doing just that. My posts aren't directed specifically at the SC issue, my anger over it is at the INSANITY with which useful idiots jumped on the bandwagon, painting the Confederate flag AS A SYMBOL OF HATE, JUST LIKE THE SWASTIKA. They are NOT the same thing, and the Confederate flag can be flown/displayed for many other reasons - heritage, pride, honor, of course historical purposes (which the previous 3 reason fall under anyway),etc- than the oppression of black people.
Heck- as has been previously pointed out: the AMERICAN flag was also flying over slavery. AND the japanese internment in WWII. AND the murdering/relocation/destruction of many Native American Tribes. But I don't hear anyone calling for THAT flag to be banned (only burned in public, lol), or removed from any of the State Capitol buildings where THOSE atrocities were performed under the starts and stripes.
Darwin I suppose you picked a joking story from the onion as payback for my lame gay stories? Okay, okay, I get it, LOL
Hey, but in reading that, you did remind me that I too have a bedspread confederate flag!!!!
JR, thats because we can only direct our attention to one inanimate object at a time, and put all our efforts into banning a piece of cloth because no body has anything better to do with their time since the riots have gone quiet.
GC, I was talking about the flag in front of the state house in SC, that was what this whole mess was originally about.
Did the Onion pay JR for his concepts? The similarities are striking.
And here I thought it was a satirical view of events versus a rendition of a JR opine.
Well, the republican SC legislators have voted overwhelmingly to remove the flag from the state house grounds, and now the republican Governor will sign the bill and the flag will come down. Interestingly, State Representative Horne, a descendent of Jefferson Davis is being credited with leading the charge to end discussion on various amendments and push the vote through. As she said, "this issue is not getting any better with age." Good for her. These are interesting times we're living in.
yep, as previously stated (and thank you Gadfly for confirming it) the racist democrats put it up in the 60's as one part of their resistance to the civil rights act, and its the republicans in the new millennium who are taking it down.
good!
times change, perceptions change, maybe some of the entrenched negative views of the republicans can be re-evaluated. . . . . maybe? . . . . just maybe ? . . . . . . .you think ?
Flags are being taken down, kids growing up to fast, little john is kissing little bobby in 5th grade and divorce is on a rise! Might be that time to head for the hills! lol This is getting crazy!
When you google "what is the flag of the kkk" the confederate flag comes up top 20 images. I believe the kkk did that to that flag because that was not originally theirs to promote!
Everybody is looking at this thing the wrong way.
1. Take the flag down from government controlled buildings?
- let the politicians vote. They will do whatever pleases the most voters (of any color).
1b. Don't like the decision?
- vote out the politicians in the next election. Write letters to the new guy.
2. Outright BAN the flag?
- No. Freedom, history, and whatnot, etc...
3. Retailers no longer produce or sell the flag?
- looks like a competition-free market just opened up. Somebody needs to put their money where their mouth is and start producing stars and bars themselves. It seems like a pretty lucrative market. And of all the colors out there, green is usually accepted by all groups, racist or otherwise.
Common Sense Apparently you did not read "the rest of the story" about how Southern Dixiecrats, a breakaway group from the Democratic Party, fought against civil rights joining your party of inclusion, the Republicans. Thus the vast majority of the Confederacy is now Republican.
So you are correct that racist Democrats put the flag up. And then they joined the Republican Party which begrudgingly is taking the flag down a half century later. I applaud their incredibly delayed and forced action but not exactly proof that they are a party of inclusion. Ask the Donald, your frontrunner for President.
@OP "When you google "what is the flag of the kkk" the confederate flag comes up top 20 images. I believe the kkk did that to that flag because that was not originally theirs to promote!"
I just did this, and you are 75% INCORRECT. Out of the top 20, 5 of the returned images have the confederate flag......not sure what you are trying to portray.
The kkk seems to have their own flag
America is taking this way, way, way too far!!!
http://americannews.com/liberals-are-demanding-that-kid-rock-ban-the-confederate-flag-so-he-does-this-instead/
"Kid Rock has also been known to use the flags during his performance, but now, a group of Detroit-based liberals are demanding that he cease its use. In fact, they’re demanding that they remove his name from the Detroit Historical Museum if he refuses."
"the media has been trying to paint the flag as a symbol of racism and intolerance, completely disregarding its historical significance."
Common sense,
Not sure why you think everyone is looking at this the wrong way. I don't disagree with anything you wrote. I suspect others here would agree as well.
Really. Kid Rock who does 20 dollar concerts for his fans. This country has gone mad. It's not racist people. It's part of history.
CraftBeerBob I love how Liberals are so against hate crimes but are always hating themselves.
Petition to make Cracker Barrel change it's offensive and stereotyping name and logo:
http://www.youngcons.com/cracker-barrel-to-be-called-caucasian-barrel/
I say all of us European Americans start protesting C****er Barrel. It uses an offensive slur and it is deeply offensive and mocks our long and proud heritage.
The name is offensive, their logo stereotypes European Americans as people who sit on chairs and lean against what appears to be a bourbon barrel, claiming we are all a bunch of alcoholics. Sure, they’ll SAY it’s a “cracker” barrel but everyone knows crackers don’t come in barrels, they come in bags and boxes!
Change the name C****er Barrel to Caucasian Barrel. After all, white people should have something to be offended by, too!
The sad thing is that a bit of heritage for some people has been lost, or maybe better defined as put on a back burner.
Honestly, do you know of anyone that is (looks) white that is offended by Cracker or Kracker? The Cracker was the man who cracked the whip on Negro slaves, a position of power. A Ni%%er is a Negro slave, a person who is essentially a commodity owned by the White man.
Philliesman Darrin - Yes, I realized you were talking about SC later when you replied after my remarks about Ft Sumter. (that switch then confused skippy)
"we are allowing a symbol that has been around for 150 plus years to morph into something it was never intended to be" - That boat sailed a century ago Darrin. You're trying to say the change in symbolism only started 3 weeks ago. It was used at times during the Carpet Bagging Era, Klan, Civil Rights, and Neo-Nazi. That's a 100 year range by itself. That is the problem at hand. Look at the debate that happened in in SC that led to the vote that took the flag down. While some had the perception of "heritage" others had the experience of "racism". It's both. It would be more accurate BD to say it came down with bi-partisan support after initial objection by Republicans and eventual agreement that it means different things to different people because of a difference in experience. It's easy for some white teenagers in NJ to think it means "I love Skynyrd". For descendents of slaves who still had to fight for freedom later, it's a different story.
OK Then - Godwin's Law.
Some of these arguments are laughable. Just try to think in your head, I know this hard, what is the right thing to do. The right thing to do is happenning today. The flag can hang in your house if thats the heritage you want to portray
Maybe we should hang the Northern flag up here since we won, and celebrate our heritage. The sad part is I was in the south about 5 years ago, and white people still treat black people like crap. I saw if for myself in a Mc Donalds, so I had to jump in mainly cause im 6 foot 5 and 275 pounds and had to shut these white kids up.
I am sorry for your loss in South Carolina and the loss to your heritage of slavery, states rights for slavery, slow talking, and really big hats. I am more sorry that some think it's a loss and the second coming of Adolph or are still trying to figure out why white supremacists like it for their symbol or why a barrel full of crackers which white supremacists could care less about also has racial overtones and offends you.
It's been a tough month, I feel your pain.
Kid Rock as an individual can do what he wants; personally I would suggest this 45-year old take down his nickname first. Otherwise, like all individuals, feel free to fly that thing, "fly away Robert James, Robert James fly away."
Well, if you don't want to hear talk asking for the Confederate flag to be taken down, don't go killing innocent non-violent black people in churches.
Just don't do it anymore, and this kind of talk will go away.
GC, I disagree with your first part, if that was that case, why now, suddenly, are these flags a problem, all over they are being banned and shunned....suddenly. I do agree with your last part though, it definitely seems people have two different perceptions of the flag, but if you are trying to erase history by removing the flag, it is not going to happen, same if you think removing the flag will do anything about racism, it won't do anything, so why is it we are removing a symbol that is a freedom to fly, people can make their own choices about the flag, and as you said, for many people it is heritage, and they do not support the negative side of the flag, so it is their freedom to display it. Yet, Now singers are being threatened to be removed from halls of fame if they do not stop using it, it has gone too far.
Andy, why are you scolding everyone for one persons actions???
"God told me to write that. Go argue with HIM."
Ha, because no non-violent, innocent people were ever killed in the name of various religions... they have had thousands of years of head-starts on any piece of cloth strung up a pole.
Certainly more died from religious beliefs than did from episodes of The Dukes of Hazzard...
"Lots of people talking Andy but only ONE person did the harm." One person, really? I think it takes a village to create a racist. People gifting guns to mental health poster candidates, ammo sales, hate groups spreading messages and symbols, there's a village of haters out there.
And the hatred continues to escalate as 7 black churches go up in flames, three of which are confirmed arson.
Talk about symbolism.
Watching the flags decent right now.
Waiting to see if the American Flag of the United States is raised to replace it.
BTW.... The USA flag plus many other items will be removed now!
This conf. flag B/S is only the start>......................
Embryodad Darrin - "why now, suddenly, are these flags a problem". The NAACP has been protesting and calling for a SC boycott since 2000.
I'm heading to Mississippi to take down that state's flag......who's with me!!!!
The insanity of it all :(
Riggghhttttt, so you were looking over the shooters shoulder whispering "do it!"
Takes a village my ass. Like it or not, INDIVIDUALS make choices. Your village can have an influence of course, but actions are entirely individual.
So influence causes no harm? Rigggghhtttttt.
No need to be rude.
"But if thought corrupts language, language can also corrupt thought.” Orwell, "1984"
"All propaganda has to be popular and has to accommodate itself to the comprehension of the least intelligent of those whom it seeks to reach." Hitler
"By the skillful and sustained use of propaganda, one can make a people see even heaven as hell or an extremely wretched life as paradise." Hilter
Some people think influence, words, symbols, matter. Sure, he alone pulled the trigger, but many guided him along his path with words and symbols helping him chart his evil course.
Mistergoogle....why again the hitler reference? To keep that little spark of emotion going?
"Sure, he alone pulled the trigger, but many guided him along his path with words and symbols helping him chart his evil course."
Do you have proof of this? or are you assuming?
Rude? I don't think so. What is rude IMO is implying at every turn that collective "sameness" is the solution to all the worlds problems.
The "collective" you speak of is really just "life experiences", and in that regard I agree that the more positive one's life experiences the happier they will be, and thus less likely to bring harm to others.
But every single one of us makes decisions on our own accord, as individuals, using our life experiences as a guide. Using individual knowledge (one obviously doesn't know what they don't know), we all look at our goals and consider the ways to achieve those goals. Thinking through each scenario, we each use our individual sense of right/wrong to balance the risks/rewards of the possible actions, and finally come to a decision. That process is individual human nature, and not "collective" by any means.
Now if you want to talk about education so that all of us have as much information at our disposal to use to make decisions, I'm all ears. Education can (and does) impact the decision making process both in positive and negative ways. But that education must not itself be "propaganda".
Propaganda, from Wikipedia:
"Propaganda is a form of communication aimed towards influencing the attitude of a population toward some cause or position.
Propaganda is information that is not impartial and used primarily to influence an audience and further an agenda, often by presenting facts selectively (perhaps lying by omission) to encourage a particular synthesis, or using loaded messages to produce an emotional rather than a rational response to the information presented.
While the term propaganda has acquired a strongly negative connotation by association with its most manipulative and jingoistic examples, propaganda in its original sense was neutral and could refer to uses that were generally positive, such as public health recommendations, signs encouraging citizens to participate in a census or election, or messages encouraging persons to report crimes to law enforcement."
Reading that summary, what means would the collective have to control/dictate/drive the thought processes of other members of society? Through schools, perhaps? And in fact isn't that what the "it takes a village" group has been trying to do, has been doing, using the government to set consistent agendas in the schools so that what is taught can be controlled by those who control the collective thought? The very definition of propaganda.
Also, wouldn't you agree that nearly every thread on HL contains propaganda? Whose view is "right" and whose is "wrong"? The answer lies in the way we each INDIVIDUALLY process information based on our life experiences, the facts that we have, and our personal moral compass.
This is LUNACY. I stand by my opinion this is political correctness RUN AMOK
MEMPHIS, TN (localmemphis.com)--The Memphis City Council unanimously approved a resolution Tuesday to move the remains of Confederate General Nathan Bedford Forrest and his wife from Health Sciences Park.
They have been buried in a park on Union Avenue for 110 years.
Council members are also moving ahead with plans to remove the statue of Forrest, even looking at selling the statue to anyone who wants it.
http://www.localmemphis.com/story/d/story/council-votes-to-move-nathan-bedford-forrests-rema/12440/x-aa6bzx80iy91LMR_yQ-g
Was there a point to that?
Meanwhile, I don't say "Takes a village my ass" in polite company.
*CAUTION! UNPOPULAR OPINION AHEAD!*
While "It takes a village to raise a child" is a very popular and accurate phrase, my preference leans towards "Every village has an idiot." I think in the initial case where what's-his-face shot all those people in the church, we've found the idiot(s).
Furthermore, I haven't heard of another church in the same town being shot up recently. If the environment is so apt to create racist mass-murderers, where are the rest of them? This was an individual action.
By modern standards, Nathan Bedford Forrest was a war criminal. And then he founded the klan. Yet at the end of his life he was very conciliatory. Digging him up sounds like silly grandstanding.
Agreed - Sherman also exonerated Forrest of war crimes. In addition the KKK pre-existed Forrest and he was never an grand dragon
Martin Luther King was killed in Memphis.
Oh yeah, that also was just one person, many of you would say.
Andy, the official story is one man, yes.
But there is always the government conspiracy angle (for which there is evidence) which would have meant more than one, so you may be right.
;-)
Marion County, FL
Recent debate over the public display of the Confederate flag has resulted in several major corporations divesting from any product or service in any way related to the divisive banner. South Carolina lawmakers followed suit by voting this week to remove the flag from its previous perch at the Statehouse.
In the face of controversy, however, one Florida county is bucking the trend by reversing a recent decision to replace an existing Confederate flag with a banner bearing the county seal. The previous flag had flown outside the Marion County government complex for more than 20 years before the recent backlash prompted county leaders to reconsider its display.
The move was reportedly initiated by Interim County Administrator Bill Kauffman and approved by County Commission Chairman Stan McClain.
Following its removal, however, many in the community spoke out in support of the Confederate flag.
“We live in America,” said advocate David Stone, “and last time I checked, it was a democracy. So, here in Marion County, which has, what, 300,000 people, how can one man decide to take it off a flagpole?”
Wayne Radley shared a similar concern about Kauffman’s activism.
“He should definitely be ashamed of himself,” he said, “because he has caused a needless divide in this country that we did not have.”
McClain acknowledged the issue is a thorny one, noting the options left to the county include “either take the whole thing down, or try to use it as a historical tool from a historical perspective.”
As of the latest reports available, the Confederate flag is once again flying alongside four other flags at the complex. County commissioners are considering moving all of the poles to a nearby area and encouraging education about each one’s historical significance.
For John Horrigh, the flag is once again where it belongs.
“The fact remains,” he said as it was being hoisted up the pole, “it is a part of our common and shared history.”
The people who want to fly the Confederate flag need to do a highly sophisticated branding program ... get some real sharp PR people on it.
They need to show skeptics like me that they are not bigots.
They need, on a grand scale, to work at educating people in those Dixie states about things like people with different skin colors getting along with each other and working together ... the way sports teams do most of the time.
They could start by getting everyone who sent death threats and hate mail to Henry Aaron in 1974 to say they are sorry, that now they know better.
That would be a nice start.
The people who sent such letters to Jackie Robinson probably are not around anymore, but the ones who sent them to Aaron are probably in their 60s and 70s.
Hey, I was on a school bus flat on the floor one night, when thrown bricks were flying through the windows, because we had black kids on our basketball team and had the temerity to win a road game in an all-white town, and this was in New Jersey in the 1960s.
Just one guy could not have thrown that many bricks that fast.
"They need to show skeptics like me that they are not bigots."
Oh, so "guilty until proven innocent?" Is that how it works in today's America?
It's funny how I grew up with a bigoted father for 18 years in western PA, moved to the deep south for the next 18 years with very little bigotry. While I have been back in the Union for the past 20 plus years i've witnessed more bigotry here. Go figure. ...
I say get rid of the hell raisers from both sides and move on.
As messed up as our history is, it is just that our past. Learn from it, leave it alone and move on.
obviously Marion county can do what what ever it wants.
So much for banning these fools' "heritage".
Aquarius I'm not talking about a court case, just my perception.
It's called public opinion, and it exists whether you like it or not.
Yeah, whenever I see that flag, it suggests racism.
I always wonder, why that flag, instead of the good old Star Spangled Banner?
Well, I don't need to keep arguing with you Alpha Males, plenty of people in South Carolina are seeing the light.
Like I said, y'all need to undertake a public relations campaign, to show that people who like your flag are good, are opposed to racism.
If you want favorable public opinion, you don't get it by arguing, you get it by being nice people.
Aquarius, I think Hot corner was referring to the "North" using the civil war term.
I'll offer this, in an effort to keep Civil War II from breaking out ..
I have no quarrel with someone wanting to display a Confederate Flag as his manner of free speech, if he has no quarrel with a tired black woman wanting to sit in the front section of a bus.
Sound fair?
Why does the flag stand for racism? 33% of southerns owned slaves. What do you think the other 67% of the population was fighting for?
We are letting two small hate groups blow this way out of proportion.
"All men are created equal". It's that freakin simple!!!!!!!! RESPECT THAT!!!!!!!
Now are we going to keep stirring the pot, and let the haters win? Or will we just move on? SMH
"If you want favorable public opinion, you don't get it by arguing, you get it by being nice people."
If you want favorable public opinion, you don't get it by telling people what they can and cannot do, and by trying to paint history in YOUR opinion of it.
"I have no quarrel with someone wanting to display a Confederate Flag as his manner of free speech, if he has no quarrel with a tired black woman wanting to sit in the front section of a bus."
You've just proven yourself to be a liberal PC wack-a-doo. Do you honestly think anyone in 2015 would have a problem with "a tired black woman wanting to sit in the front section of the bus?" You're off the reservation. 1955 was a long time ago.
Ok, if you still want to hate......try hating the Feds..
Hate them for not taking care of our:
Hungry
poor
underprivalged youth
deadbeat dads
corporate tax evasion
health care
farmers
housing
Hate them for pocketing our hard earned money that they can't even back!
Hate them for basicly telling you how to live.
Sounds like I'm a bit of a Rebel, yes?
Hmmmm..... and I didn't even use the "N" word
Hot Corner...
I think you have hit on the REAL reason a lot of people want that flag GONE. And racism has nothing to do with it. YOU MUST CONFORM !!!!!! No dissension allowed!!!!!
"racism has nothing to do with it. YOU MUST CONFORM !!!!!! No dissension allowed!!!!!"
and there it is, the operative point . . . . . .
the tolerant have no tolerance for those who are different from themselves,
Uh, yeah, JIT, I got that. I also understand that the Civil War has been over for 150 years. Thanks for the clarification, though. ;-)
"Why does the flag stand for racism? 33% of southerns owned slaves. What do you think the other 67% of the population was fighting for?"
Look it up either above or JGI. And while 33% of the South owned slaves, 33% of the South WAS slaves too. When the South succeeded, their own words said they were leaving because of slavery or the state's right to enslave. Those are posted above as well. Read it, they said it --- we be leaving because of slaves. It's pretty clear and almost unanimous.
If any of the other 67%, most of whom benefitted from slavery even in not directly owning slaves, missed the written reason their state left the Union, well...... Fact is the real reason was that slavery was not being allowed in the new states added to the Union and that meant the Southern money brokers couldn't expand to the Pacific. That's the real reason that drove the Southern elite to war.
Sure, individuals could have missed that point and gone to war for many other reasons but the State's Rights argument falls short unless viewed as the State's Right to Own Other People as Property.
As to taking the flag down, IMHO, individuals can do what they want. There is no place for it on public buildings. You lost the war, you surrendered, you lowered your colors. Give it up.
Using the flag for historical purposes like re-enactments is the proper use of this piece of our history.
The people of Marion County choose to honor their history and heritage of slavery, or the state's right to put others into bondage, or the culture that embraced that, there is a place for that but it's not on public spaces IMHO. After all, it's Florida. How much civil war heritage is there in Marion County, really? And you lost, take that flag down from public spaces and put it in historical settings, that's where it belongs ---- history.
Let us just hope 1955 and 1965 STAY over 50 years ago.
Don't ever bring it back.
Do you see any indication of 1955 or 1965 "making a comeback"?? The only people I hear talking about how blacks are still being disenfranchised are POLITICIANS (and Louis Farakan and Al Sharpton, but that's how those buffoons make a living). It's a divide they have gotten great mileage out of for too many decades, and they don't want to give up the leverage it provides. It's disgusting.
"And you lost, take the flag down". I don't recall being there. In fact I always pictured myself as a Yankee and stood for a united nation.
Sure I agree that slavery played a major part in the cause of the war. To think it was the sole purpose is just not right. Americans have always been opportunist and we do/did what we can to survive. SC spoke the loudest since 1790 that they were against a centralized government telling how them how to basically live.
Remember they just got away from one king and now another one shows up. What would you do, if you were they???
Tell me why a majority of slaves stayed in the south after the war? Don't tell me, it's because thats all they knew. That would be lame.
Your focus should not be on the flag, it should be on those idiots running around in sheets. Whom disgraced the flag.
Yes wave that flag to let the government know who they are governing!
In Baltimore over the weekend, and around here on Mon and Tue ... SO MANY people are displaying the USA flag on their front porches ... it is nice to see.
I followed a pickup truck on I-295 that had a big USA flag waving.
Haven't seen this many USA flags all flying, since the week after the 9/11 attack.
Has anyone else noticed this?
"Tell me why a majority of slaves stayed in the south after the war? Don't tell me, it's because thats all they knew." Yes, they were well financed upwardly mobile educated folk thanks to Mr. Plantation. And they had lots of family up North. And having grown up in frigid temperatures, they lusted to return to the frozen north to work in a hot factory. And after the war, suddenly all the manual labor jobs in the South disappeared....
Sorry for the really bad attempt at humor, but for a people that live in the "most hated state in America" to ask that question of "why don't you move" is kind of funny.
Try: http://www.theroot.com/articles/history/2013/07/free_blacks_in_the_south_why_did_they_stay.html
or http://www.pbs.org/wnet/african-americans-many-rivers-to-cross/history/free-blacks-lived-in-the-north-right/
No slavery was not the main purpose of the war; however, it was the only reason that the states succeeded or at least that's what they said. Read their own words posted above. Even when they claimed state's rights, it was worded as state's rights to own slaves. I was astounded to learn how clear the states were.
That's the reason IMO the flag deserves place on our public buildings and such. Display it for heritage and history to honor the courageous boys who died bravely defending it. Not for what it stood for but for what they sacrifice and who they were. Brave Americans.
The fact that what the flag stood for makes white supremacists co-opt it should also give folks pause about using as a modern symbol.
Nothing prettier than the stars and stripes blowing in the summer breeze! Especially if your at your favorite ball park!
Great fans in those Midwestern cities. Much more supportive and positive than the fans in the Northeast --- the players themselves always say that.
Nice win by the American team. How about Mike Trout! As my son would say " he's a baller".
Now back to the thread. Looks like Mississippi's next.
I sure hope nobody innocent gets hurt.
Whatever happened to, " don't poke a stick in a hornets nest" or "let a sleeping dog lie"?
I really enjoyed the "Franchise Four" segment, and was so glad the allowed Pete to be a part of the whole thing.
Spent my college-plus years at Memorial stadium watching Cal coached by Cal.
Then you also saw Billy Ripken.
Anyways, it's nice to have seen things get so much better in the South and sports have played a big role in that improvement of human understanding, but I'm not so foolish to think everything down there is perfect. I'd like to hear that from a low salaried black man who actually lives there to believe it.
Also, I'm not "liberal," I'm moderate (there used to be moderate Republicans back in the day) when I'm with "far out" liberals I play devil's advocate, same way as I do with the tea party crowd my brother-in-law hangs out with. On Hackkkettstown Life, the tea party side tends to dominate.
Nobody gives "the liberals" and the Civil Rights Act of 1964 any credit for the changes down South. It's not like both sides of the aisle just said YAY in a unanimous voice vote --- getting it passed was a real struggle --- I remember the news reports when I was a teenager and all that history can be found on the internet, no need to post any here.
Many people never change until the law requires them to.
OK. that's a long enough post. Go, Orioles. Brooks Robinson (from Arkansas) is a national treasure --- the way he embraced playing with black players at a time when American League owners were openly questioning "are we going too fast with this integration stuff?" and his old friends at home were, well, Southern (a polite way to describe it).
Frank Robinson showed up (they stole him from Cincinnati) and suddenly they were dominating the league.
Another mans thoughts. Pretty sound thinking.
http://www.thepoliticalinsider.com/ben-carson-boldly-explains-what-happens-if-we-removed-all-confederate-flags-on-earth/
OK, no one is going to argue when Ben Carson says: "“The issue is not the flag so much as it is how people think…" yada, yada..... Of course, who would say different.
But when Ben says: "And he doesn’t support how the debate of race has forced the hands of major retailers – such as Walmart and Amazon – to stop selling the flag." Who Ben, who "forced the hands of major retailers?" Were letters sent? Bomb threats? Boycotts even? Or did the retailers look to the national debate and come to their own conclusions?
"While Carson has no problem removing public displays of the Confederacy…" Really Ben? That doesn't offend you? Pulling down monuments to Confederate bravery, courage, and heroism is OKdoky? But twisting Walmart's arm, if it even happened, that's stepping over the line?
Perhaps Ben is the one that should work on his willingness to twist the truth so it fits on his conservatively correct (CC) bandwagon.
And then the author closes with "We need to pray for those hostile to minorities....." Yeah, that will fix it for sure. That's one option the Greatest Generation didn't think off.
I am sorry but IMHO, the HL defense of the confederacy is much better than Ben's mis read of the issue.
I've read lots of stuff about Ben Carson, sincerely looking for a Republican I can support, but I'm afraid he should just stick to brain surgery.
agreed SD usually he has a better read - in regards to retailers I feel they feared a public back lash and appearing to be insensitive. Unfortunately that is the times we live in
I am not defending Ben. I just like his description of the under lying problem,and its not the flag. Only prayer can help that problem. Macy's was shocked that they got over 30 thousand responses to there action. So it is, in these everyone being offended times.
Unlike the greatest generation. Today you cant loose, everyone gets a trophy, Punishment for behavior is forbidden. Things are acceptable today in speaking , TV and dress in the name of progress. Nothing is left to the imagination. Lay it all out there and get offended.
I believe the Greatest Generation did pray. ..., alot more than this generation is doing.
Why the dig on that (danger)? Just curious.
OldGent - The funny thing about being in a society of people who think they're all good, honest, special snowflakes is; nobody will ever call someone out on their B.S.
The 40 & 50's had the most people going to church in this country's history. When all your neighbors had family in a war zone, and you were giving up things for the war effort, believe me, they prayed.
"Only prayer can help that problem."
I'm not denigrating prayer, but that's an absurd statement.
Old Gent: I think that was a TMZ "our sources" story about folks defending Donald Trump. The same "news" outlet printed "Donald Trump tells TMZ he is contacting the FBI to investigate threats just made by a man claiming to be the son of escaped Mexican drug lord El Chapo."
No confirmation on the story which has grown to "Around 30,000 customers recently threatened Macy's with a boycott." Of course that's buttressed by the 700,000 petition signers to end the Macys/Trump relationship according to the same rag balanced by the reported tens of thousands cutting up their Macy's cards.
There's a tsunami out there somewhere, at least sources tell me.
Sorry about lack of clarity on my Greatest Generation prayer comment. I meant prayer to stop the hostilities versus actually fighting. Bad joke. During battle, while some turned away from God, I think many, many, more found God in the heat of conflict and remained deeply religious forever. One brave man I saw interviewed kept his Normandy beach pledge and was in Church every day for the rest of his life. I am sure this was true for the folks at home as well.
And for those who told us this story, we can be pretty darn sure that God answered their prayers. As well as for those not able to tell us their sorry.
I was just trying to say that man's actions are sometimes needed along with prayer. I respect anyone who prays to end discrimination.
.
The City of Gettysburg, SD announced it will not be removing its Confederate Flag image from police officer patches, amid growing turmoil nationwide. City leaders say they are honoring the community's founding fathers and rich heritage with no racist intentions.
Nobody ever listens to me ... the Confederate flag is in need of re-branding.
When people no longer see it as racist, nobody will have an issue with displaying it.
It'll take some time and healing, though ... key word - healing.
OK, I agree there's no racist intentions on the Gettysburg SD Police badge but if you were a black American driving though the area and that's what pulled you over what would you think? I am sure the first thing to come to mind would not be Darrin's request that you just ask "Hey, are you a white supremacist?" Or that the immediate thought bubble above your head would be: "golly jeepers, there must have been a bonding between Northern and Southern civil war vets right after the war......"
That aside, the stars and strips is in the right position so decorous, the town is called Gettysburg so there is heritage, it's just that it's in South Dakota.
Here's the weird part. SD was neither slave state nor part of the Confederacy before and during the war. It was not a state. SD became a state in 1889.
The Dakota Territory Governor (comprising of 4 states) did raise a Calvary Unit for the Union but they stayed in territory fighting Indians.
There are many civil war vets buried there, there was a hospital, again mostly for the Union but certainly serving Gettysburg and Antietam battles. That's the main tie to civil war vets.
Gettysburg was platted in 1884 (founded by pitching two tents).
The town was first to be called Meade after Gettysburg Union General Meade but too popular a name and the Post Office denied it.
A Northern Vet submitted Gettysburg.
It only became a sister city to the real Gettysburg around 1972.
The badge was designed by someone from South Carolina in 2009.
Some say the town was named Gettysburg because of the bonding of Northern and Southern vets. I sort take exception to that if the first submitted name was Meade. Also, for the South, Gettysburg was a loss. Perhaps they didn't think it was a crushing defeat since it was in the North, they did win the first day, and Meade did not pursue, so they got away. But I can't imagine Gettysburg would be a Confederate's first choice but more importantly that South Dakota was one of the few places that the North and South immediately bonded after the war.
But stick with it, I do think you have the name, the heritage, and the historical accuracy. And I doubt you will get much minority push back. Still looks racist though.
If I was a black male, and got pulled over with no idea why, and the officer was wearing a badge with a Confederate flag on it, I would definitely be thinking I got profiled.
In fact, there are states I would not even drive to in a car with NJ plates, if I was a young black male --- I don't need to list them, do I?
I've even heard white guys tell me they got pulled over, because some good 'ol officer of the law saw the Jersey plates and asked (in an unfriendly way) "what are you doin' comin' here, Yankee?"
I am very happpy to hear that brotherdog!!
@Mistergoogle " I am sure the first thing to come to mind would not be Darrin's request that you just ask "Hey, are you a white supremacist?""
Why, oh why, do so many people on this forum insist on trying to put words in others mouths, or try to express what other feel, man mind your buisness and work on speaking for yourself.
Nice attempt to strike some more emotion, but a more probable question would be..."Excuse me officer, why does your badge have a confederate flag on it" and if you ask nice, definitally not how mistergoogle would ask, i am sure you will get a well respected answer.
The problem with this whole situation is too many people think like misterstrangergoogledanger.......
Am I the only one who is glad mistergoogle has fallen off the planet earth?? We all know he was nothing more than an egotistical pompous ass. He's gone, goodbye and good riddance. Lets all move on to his replacement!!
shhh body snatchers grabbed MG and reincarnated him as SD - we are not to speak of it out loud or we may be turned into soylent green
you're on to something auntiel, good, a leopard can't really change it's spots though, can it?
What Flag do we ban now?
4 Marines killed in attacks on Chattanooga military facilities
"Law enforcement sources told CBS News that the shooting suspect was identified as 24-year-old Muhammad Youssef Abdulazeez. According to a U.S. law enforcement source, Abdulazeez was born in Kuwait and came to the United States in 1996. It's unclear if and when he became an American citizen."
... and we went to war to defend Kuwait in 1991... remember Bush talking about "the new world order" ... that's the appreciation we get for being "the world's policeman."
By the way, since this thread started, I have yet to see a Confederate flag displayed anywhere... in four states ... not even the truck stop in Salem County, which a StarLedger article once described as "might as well be Alabama."
SD, a very interesting name? Are you supposed to be dangerous to the children of those on this forum...
A little bit of baseball trivia to bring in some comic relief ...
in what year did the Cincinnati franchise go from calling itself the Redlegs to calling itself the Reds? It was before Pete Rose came there.
I remember in 1973, asking my girlfriend (now my spouse) as the playoffs started, "think the Mets can beat the Reds?" She says, "I hope so, those Russians are trying to beat us in everything."
Who is Darrin4?
Darrin, when you posed: "Maybe if some of you had half a set, you would ask someone who displays the flag, why they have the flag, rather then automatically assume that they must want to bring slavery back (certainly seems that's what a lot of you are portraying), they are racist, or whatever outlandish thoughts go through your heads....." I provided one way to ask the question. Your suggestion:"Excuse me officer, why does your badge have a confederate flag on it" while better and more pleasant would probably elicit the same response.
Question: since you display the Confederate flag out of respect for those brave lads, including on your truck, how many civil war period Union flags are you displaying? Are you leaning to respect the South, the North or all the courageous men of that era?
Very rude but expected Auntiel. I hope no one is glad when you fall off the face of the earth. BDog: "Why keep a dog and bark yourself?" IJay: Yes. Actually the children ON this forum. It's working. See Auntiel and BDog. Darrin does not scare.
No takers on the trivia ...
The Redlegs became the Reds in 1959.
Hot diggity dog.
Andy
It was changed BACK to the Reds after a stint from '53-'58 as the Redlegs exactly due to the communist "Red Scare" of the early 50's. They were originally named "Redstockings" after an earlier team, but that was later shortened to "Reds" when they joined the National League, that is up until the time mentioned when they took the "Reds" name underground for a while:
http://www.todayifoundout.com/index.php/2012/02/the-cincinnati-reds-were-once-renamed-the-redlegs-due-to-the-second-red-scare/
Yeah, good old '73, still a number of years away from the Berlin Wall coming down. I can see how at the time she could get confused.
By the way, speaking of baseball, I was at a Phillies/Braves game back in the earlier '70's and was rooting for the Braves & more specifically Henry "Hank" Aaron, who's always been one of my heroes. To go for & break the Babe's record with all the controversy and death threats must have been tough!
Phil D. IDK mistergoogle, who is strangerdanger?
You can think all you want that asking a question nicely or calling someone a white supremacist is going to get you the same answer, but I think even you know that is wrong.......so lets not kid ourselves.....
Where ever I display the Confederate flag, I also display the current American flag, and I make sure that the American flag is always flown or displayed higher then the Confederate flag. I will display the flags I feel like, I am not scared of people asking questions, and I am also not scared of the people who are unwilling to learn, you take the good with the bad. I would not fly the flag on a flag pole in front of my house, as telling by many comments on here, some people are just too immature to be able to realize historical significance, and are also unwilling to learn about the historical significance.
Your last comment is just showing your normal Mistergoogle colors, although Auntil's comment was a bit harsh, you had quite the following as mistergoogle, and I personally still want a answer on why the name change? you can hide, but everyone knows who you are ;-)
Who is Darrin4 and what happened to 2 and 3?
Flag display point taken although I think you need some period Union flags for historical accuracy. Still fly that current stars n stripes though and then you have North, South and the current Union. Now that's respect.
Confederate flag question suggestion point taken. You are right of course but consider why are you even asking the question? To ferret out the "heritage" from the "racists?" I mean consider this: you're that black man and you say "Excuse me officer, why does your badge have a confederate flag on it" Now, if facing a white supremacist or just your garden-variety racist, you're probably going to wish you had just shut up since at minimum you're going to get an earful. So if you don't know.......
Darrin my comment was intentional. Why SD would get so offended is questionable. According to SD he doesn't know who mistergoogle is. Correct? Was it rude, childish, and ignorant? Yes. I am not one to "hide" and I feel silly for doing it. It was intentional for the sole purpose to get the end result I was looking for and it worked. Personally I want mistergoogle back, he was HL best comedy relief. Fyi falling off the planet earth is impossible, its been proven and everyone knows it ;)
Good post, Phil D.
I may have been at the same Phillies-Braves game you were, I covered most of the Phillies' home games at the time. It was great to talk to Aaron, a real gentleman. Since I was in my early 20s and somewhat star struck, I limited my questions to the actual process of playing baseball ... left the controversies to the wire services.
Fortunately, I was the sports editor (not many people in their early 20s ever held such a title) so I didn't have somebody over my shoulder telling me what I should be asking people.
Dick ("don't call me Richie") Allen didn't mind talking about some scary experiences he had when he was the only black player on the Phillies' minor league team in Arkansas in 1963.
Andy
Thanks. You know, being raised mostly in the South it was exceptionally hard for me to watch parts of the movie "42". The toughest perhaps being the game portrayed with the Phillies. Yes, the "City of Brotherly Love" Phillies. The amount of hate portrayed in the crowd may (or may not) have been a bit exaggerated - I don't know. However, it just goes to show you that just because you're not in a state where Gen. Lee's Battle Flag is displayed doesn't mean that those so called "enlightened" states in the North were any less prejudiced than were those in the South. I've observed more up here for the most part than I did down there, though much of it's on a more clandestine level. Wow, non-meant but appropriate pun there:-) There was that one incident down there though, just more of a show of ignorance. I think it was the first time I was called an "N"-lover, though there were a few other times... . That's the time that stands out the most, however.
By the way Andy, do you know if there are any biopics on Mr. Aaron? I mean he was that little kid in the movie "42" if I remember correctly, but I can't remember having seen or heard of a movie about him specifically. Perhaps the studios are afraid of any repercussions if they do?
Phil- I agree, I would love to see a movie made about Hank's life. My little league team was called the braves and he was my idol.
How Jackie preserved is truly astonishing!
Now being the jerk I am.......I can only recall the stars and stripes flying at all those ballparks. Am I mistaken?
Racism has been going on for way to long in this country. It's got to STOP!
Hot corner
Yes, the Stars & Stripes were featured at the ballpark, however it was the behavior of the Phillies players and the crowd at the game portrayed in the movie that was truly disgusting to me. It kind of also showed how youth sometimes learns from the example of their elders and while that part may have been dramatized, from what I've seen in real life it's not always far from the truth. In my case, growing up in the 60's and having friends of all religions and ethnicities, I learned on my own that "they" were no different from "us", wanting essentially the same things that our Constitution Guarantees us all. I pretty much saw that, while a number of adults I met and/or saw in everyday life were small-minded and not open to change. They were blinded by differences, rather than seeing our similarities.
My little league team (when I lived in Northern VA) was the "Tigers" and when my Cub Scout Troop went to see a ball game between the Washington Senators and the Detroit Tigers, I was rooting for the Tigers, just because of the name. Kids, LOL.
Mr. Aaron always seemed to be a humble and gracious man. I think that adds to the respect I have for he. In the words of Walter Brennan in the old TV series "The Guns of Will Sonnett", "No brag, just fact."
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-3166640/Violent-clashes-expected-South-Carolina-Ku-Klux-Klan-New-Black-Panther-Party-come-face-face-rival-rallies-outside-capitol-statehouse.html
this right here is why we cant have nice things and the aliens don't come visit..
Who is strangerdanger and what happened to mistergoogle? LOL, we can keep this going for as long as you want, but I won't quit until you come out of that closet!!!!!
To answer your question, 2 and 3 were immediately blocked when I was being followed and having most to all of my posts taken down, 4 was the only one I could get to work at the time.
As for the flags, I have a garage, not a fort, but I do like your idea, I may have to add a union flag too but I am running out of room, I do have a few pirate flags and arctic cat flags as well :-> Mark my words, my next garage will be twice the size!
Skippy, the kkk is definitely doing way more harm to the flag then help, and they are certainly not fighting for the same reasons I would be, I am sure their attempts are going to back fire and just end up making the flag even more of a racist symbol.
Thanks for sharing Skippy. I've said it before we've let two small hate parties stir up a bucket of crap.
maybe when the aliens do come the panthers and kkk get together and hate on them because they look different. Smh
I can't believe that some of the " heritage supporters" showed up. Cant fix stupid, I reckon. :)
It's sad that the KKK has taken the flag as their own - its stealing valor from our forefathers and debasing our history
Hatred stems from weakness, ignorance and insecurity. Acceptance stems from love, open-mindedness and strength.
I wonder which one will override the other in the long run?
Aaron grew up in Mobile and seemed very cautious about even "going there" when it came to matters of race ... he was an "actions speak louder than words" kind of guy.
The Phillies' history regarding race is awful, but (dropping names again) Robin Roberts was a tremendous, good man ... he was getting started in sports broadcasting at the time Aaron was approaching the record ... an educated and articulate man from Michigan State. He was approachable ... no racism in him whatsoever. When asked about the Phillies' poor track record on race, paraphrasing here, he basically said after a decade of losing to players like Aaron, Mays, Clemente, Frank Robinson ... they knew they needed to start bringing in black players.
A big piece of their 1980 championship was Bake McBride, who they got in one of the few bad trades the Cardinals ever made. There was nothing NOT to like about those mid 70s Phillies ... even Dick Allen was happy to be back.
Garry Maddox came there in a 1975 trade ... another reticent kind of guy at first, but polite and pleasant ... what a great outfielder ... he got very involved with area charity events and is part of the Philly sports scene to this day, choosing to live and stay part of Philly.
The Rules According to Auntiel
or
In Her Own Words:
1. It's OK to intentionally be "rude, childish, and ignorant" in order to "get the end result I was looking for."
2. If you are offended by this, you are guilty are charged by the intentional "rude, childish, and ignorant" one.
I thought auntiel was just busting chops and making fun of other people instead (myself included).
JIT - I thought so too at first. But after her follow up post it seems she's *deadly* serious.
My take on it SD is that she intentionally insulted MrG, because she wanted to find out if you took offense to it or not. Which you did and pretty much confirms that you are MrG.
Like I said in a previous post she was very clever.
Auntiel is one of your fans..I've never read any derogatory posts towards you from her. From what I've read she has appreciated your humor and opinions.
I think you may have completely misinterpreted her comment. Of course I could be wrong, why not ask her, rather than jump to conclusions?
I found it a bit thought-provoking that the video after the one posted earlier about the Black Lady who defended the Battle Flag was this one:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Tash7XtDCyM
While I'm not a fan of MSNBC or Chris Hayes, it does make one think. The odd thing is that I can't really remember many of my friends in NC or VA wearing any apparel that either featured the flag or had decals on their car or flags hanging in their garage, except for the occasional Southern Rock band that may have had it in their T-Shirts. I've actually seen it more up here than down there, but then again maybe its use has expanded since the late-eighties.
Here is perhaps one of the most thought out responses to the whole controversy and after a friend who knows him clued me in on the article I thought here would be a good place to put it for anyone that cares to read the whole thing (for those who hate the NY Times, sorry, but perhaps he thought that would be the best place to write it or maybe other outlets wouldn't:
http://www.nytimes.com/2015/07/09/magazine/the-souths-heritage-is-so-much-more-than-a-flag.html?_r=0
Just because I ran across it and because of all the controversy with the innocently-meant usage of the "Rebel Flag" on the General Lee being now removed, I give you this:
http://powernationtv.com/post/how-the-general-lee-was-born
In the TV series, as you can see at the end of the clip, it was named by Uncle Jesse, who was just another relatively poor farmer who along with the other Dukes "rebelled" against an abuse of power by the corrupt local government. While sure some could draw the conclusion that they were trying to equate that continuous act with the War between the States, it seems obvious that they meant it only in terms of how skilled General Lee was, not in the fact that he had been fighting for slavery, but that he couldn't find it in his conscience to fight against his native State of Virginia. As a graduate of West Point, I'm sure it was an exceptionally difficult choice to make, one that would work against him later as his wife's property was taken over to build Arlington National Cemetery.
There's a longer story there, but suffice it to say that he managed the property as a monument to George Washington, having amassed a large collection of artifacts in his memory which were lost as Union Soldiers and others looted the Mansion and other buildings on the property.
As Skippy stated before it's a shame that what was just a symbol of Southern Heritage has been so utterly coopted by hate groups, but then if you look at the picture accompanying the NYT Magazine article I posted earlier, you'll see someone in 1957 during court ordered desegregation using it not for heritage, but hate.
I personally don't care what flag you fly, as long as it doesn't fly above the Stars & Stripes of the flag of the USA, although according to Louis Farrakhan, that one should be taken down as well:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DdP_Ugd8aVI
It's always "interesting" to listen to him. I used to watch his speeches when they would broadcast them on either CNN or CSPAN, I forget which.
Thanks Phil D. for both the very good NYT Magazine article, and even the snippet from the Farrakhan speech. I had never heard him speak before; it is, as you say, interesting.
The fact that he agrees with much of what I have been saying notwithstanding, the NYT's piece was very good. I too grew up both in the not-so-deep South and the throw-back South of the Appalachians. I grew up with many ardent racists who were as nice as any of us except for one opinion We never argued about it, I demurred at the jokes as they did with my conservative-redneck jokes. Like many have said, they never did anything racist that I witnessed except think about it. And their kids, my friends, did not follow them down this path. It was a generational thing where I grew up. The flag was never present. The heritage was always respected.
That said, I looked up Florence Alabama just for fun. The first article I clicked on was Florence Mayors Resigns Amiss Racism Allegations. Aha!!! Oops, that's Florence Colorado........
The next article was a blog entry basically saying that newbies were hated especially Northerners. Well, I think that flies in many places.
The next was the story of a black mob attacking a white family on a "First Friday" night inflicting physical harm, tasing, attempted lynching, and the like on the same day of the Texas incident. No national coverage since the police did not deem it a hate crime even with racial slur evidence. The Police said they didn't have enough evidence.
The next was a case of alleged Police racism. A white man complained that a Hispanic cop was racist for giving him a ticket and demanded to the chief "what have the "Hispanics" (real words not used) done for the whites?" The chief dismissed him telling him he didn't like his views on Hispanics or Blacks and then posted the incident on the Police Facebook page. Crud, I just don't know what to make of that......
The rest was history....
In 1833 a black man who killed a white boy for $10 was pulled from jail lynched by a mob of 800. He had previously confessed.
In 1890, the paper posted support for interracial marriage and black voting equality bill in Congress: the force bill. (the bill did not pass).
OK, I give. I am sure there is racism in Florence Alabama; the zany white guy in front of the Police Chief and the black mob prove it. Seems there is plenty to go around just like much of America. While I think the stereotype of the South still exists, it does not exist throughout the South and places like Florence pretty much prove it given the Police Cheifs' hiring and defense of his squad and his not jumping the shark on the potential hate crime based on less evidence than what was needed.
Here is the police chief's facebook entry. https://www.facebook.com/FlorenceALPD/photos/a.174453946036162.1073741827.171550249659865/331708133644075/
You're both welcome and I'm glad you liked it/them.
I can definitely see both sides of the coin, so to speak and have for many years. I've never felt an urge to fly the Battle Flag, even though raised in the South mostly and born in deepest Georgia (I mean 3/4 or so of the way to Florida down the State). I also never had even a keychain featuring the emblem, though I did think of myself as a bit of a Rebel as in rebellious in various ways and liked to follow my own path, wherever that may have and still leads me.
That said, I (possibly due to being "white") am not going to automatically assume that just because someone does have that symbol featured in some way or flown somewhere, that they are a racist and/or hateful individual, and I don't think that many of my old friends from school would either, even the ones from the South (by that I mean friends whose skin is naturally a bit darker than mine).
I think many people have allowed themselves to become overly sensitized about some things. Heck, my Dad used to come home and tell us Polish jokes because there was a guy at work (on base) that knew some good ones. He was of 100% Polish stock, but born here, as were both his parents, but we knew the truths about Copernicus, Marie Sklodowska Curie, Chopin, etc. so we took them as just that, jokes told by people who didn't know any better, but were creative in their insults of those they felt were inferior and that they didn't understand. A lot of it is what you get from your own perspective and I can see that different people have their own perspectives that don't always agree with mine. Where would the fun be in that, eh?
Yes, "Minister" Farrakhan must have read "Mein Kampf" at some point, because he takes serious his usage of many of Hitler's precepts. I don't mean to insult anyone by that, but I can draw you the parallels if you wish. That's why I always found him both "interesting" and fascinating as a speaker, especially for a former Calypso dancer. Apparently he found his calling... .
good read.... for those ACTUALLY interested in the whole picture, and not falling for the administration's "racism" playing card....
http://personalliberty.com/why-is-the-war-on-the-confederacy-still-going-on-today/
"It is part of the long-term war on liberty, independent thought and rural America and the attempted destruction of the predominantly white, productive American middle class."
Yeah, the Confederacy was known for it's incredibly strong middle class. Let's see --- take 1/3 the population and pay them nothing..... take 1% and give them plantations. add a few shopkeepers and let the rest be dirt farmers.
It was probably due to the South's leading the charge to create strong Unions.
I buy the "predominately white" part though.
In 1860, the South had 25% of the nations free population; and 10% of the working capital.
In 1860, the North had 5 times the factories, 10 times the factory workers and 90% of the skilled labor force. Even with massive immigration, competition kept wages rising for skilled labor.
Without factories, the South needed far less skilled labor, had low cost slave labor for unskilled jobs directly competing with "the middle class" keeping wages very low.
In the North "unskilled labor" could move up to become "skilled labor" beginning to build the middle class. Unions further strengthened that trend after the Civil War. Meanwhile in the South, unskilled labor competed directly with slave labor making it very hard to move, much less move up.
The author, fighting against the evil tentacles of the media and the power brokers of globalism, maintains that the producing white middle class is under attack of being seduced by socialism and that Southern rebellion against such tyranny is represented by the flag. Since the South virtually had no middle class, no upward path to the American dream, I think the author's basic premise is flawed by the Southern economy which was a failure for most of the population of the region. Certainly for slaves but also for expecting any sort of movement from the lower class and a basically non-existent middle class.
I agree that the flag represents rebellion from tyranny. Unfortunately it also represents slavery, which is a very weak economic system not to mention immoral. And today, it also represents white supremacy, to which this author alludes when he says "the predominantly white, productive American middle class." The entire US is predominantly white so what is he getting at here? Hinting at the unproductive class? Code words, code words.
So I find the author's basic premise of the Southern culture supporting a strong WHITE middle class economy severely flawed and his "root cause" linkage of the media (including FOX), ruling class, Northern Progressives, white apologists, race hucksters, government alphabet soup agencies, Wall Street, globalists, NAFTA and GATT and the MSM propaganda machine to be a laughable collection just providing a wide target for the frustrated to blame for their ills. If only we could return to the past all will be well and the stars and bars represents a rebellion based in glory. The Southern past stunk, economically speaking, and the flag primarily represented support of slavery, not some valiant rebellion.
JR, while that article does make 'some' good points and churns up some good quotes from the original founders of the USA, it is lost among the mumblings of the tinfoil-hat-wearing nut job who wrote it. Essentially, it is anti-propaganda propaganda and does nothing to help their cause except act as validation for people that already believe what is being argued. No conclusions are drawn nor are any of his assertions backed up with hard evidence; we are left with the whole "worldwide elite" being blamed for all of everyone's problems.
Seriously, this circus just goes in cycles regardless. If the flag means that much to you (or anybody, really), start producing them yourself; it's not illegal (yet). Put your money where your mouth is. All flags - ALL - are just another method of social control anyway.
For those of you would like to get the real story of the civil war watch the documentary the Civil War by Ken Burns probably the greatest documentary ever made it is about 16 hours long broken up into about two hour-long segments 1860 the first six months 1860 the last six months and so on even people who don't really have a opinion on the subject of the Confederate flag will find this documentary interesting following the lives of northern and southern soldiers in their letters home it is available on Netflix and probably the library to just on a personal note when I first watch this show in its original airing on PBS I then as now think it was the best show I have ever seen on TV
And by the way for those of you and I know there are some out there who think it's a liberal view on the Civil War because of the liberal Ken Burns or the liberal PBS I like general Norman Schwarzkopf take on it in a interview with I think it was time magazine he was asked what he did on his down time during the whole process of the golf war he said along with reading he watched the Ken Burns Civil War documentary twice and made it required viewing for all his staff he also said it should be required viewing for every man and woman in the military
Hey- I said it was a good read, I didn't say it was gospel. NO ONE has "all" the "correct" answers... especially the official government line.... I'm all about gathering all the information I can, in order to make a more informed opinion on subjects.... if only some people here would do the same instead of sticking to their preconceived notions and government talking points.
Now lets go back in history to 1968. Eldridge Cleaver made this statement. He admits to targeting and raping white women. So who is politically correct now? "[W]hen I considered myself ready enough, I crossed the tracks and sought out white prey. I did this consciously, deliberately, willfully, methodically -- though looking back I see that I was in a frantic, wild and completely abandoned frame of mind. Rape was an insurrectionary act. It delighted me that I was defying and trampling upon the white man's law, upon his system of values, and that I was defiling his women...I felt I was getting revenge. From the site of the act of rape, consternation spread outwardly in concentric circles. I wanted to send waves of consternation throughout the white race."
Eldridge Cleaver, 1968[7]
Urge
When you cut and paste from anywhere, including Wikipedia, you should have the___ to give them credit for THEIR work:
" https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Eldridge_Cleaver\"
The quote is in a box in blue on the right side of the page and the footnote refers to:
Eldridge Cleaver, Black Panther Who Became G.O.P. Conservative, Is Dead at 62 New York Times, By JOHN KIFNER, May 2, 1998
PhilD. A footnote or "cut and paste" cannot undo his crimes as an admitted rapist. I dont care what political party he was a member of at his death. Think of the women he preyed upon terrorized and raped.Not to mention he was so proud of his crimes.
Why are you singling out a solitary individual? Is there a point to be made by writing about one individual's actions that occured in the context of events half a century ago? Or are you making other insinuations?
One of the funniest things I've seen on YouTube: guy with tuba vs. Confederate-flag-carrying KKK members:
http://www.thedailybeast.com/articles/2015/07/22/meet-the-man-who-beat-the-kkk-with-a-tuba.html
(Apologies if this has been posted already above. I don't have the time to read the entire thread.)
Urge
I'm just stating that YOU (as all the rest of us) should properly attribute information. First of all, it's plagiarism and secondly because you could have pulled this so-called info out of thin air for all any of us know. I was telling people where you got your information and where the footnote said the information was originally quoted from.
I don't care what party he later joined either. The fact that he had raped ANY women, is a heinous thing indeed in my book. I don't feel he was somebody that should be looked up to or held out as a hero.
'A footnote or "cut and paste" cannot undo his crimes as an admitted rapist.' makes no sense at all, as I am not trying to be an apologist for him, nor for his pride in and lack of repentance for his crimes, but rather I was urging you to properly attribute your information to those who actually DID the work to look up the original source material and post it where you "stole" it from.
http://www.ajc.com/news/local/with-confederate-flags-gone-civil-war-museum-will-close/ogScTPPdqliC0z4opJ3GTI/
With Confederate flags gone, Civil War museum will close.
I think we have gone a bit overboard in our PC agenda when a museum cant display a historic artifact.
"District 2 Commissioner, Dee Clemmons, has requested that ALL Confederate flags be removed from the museum, in addition to the gift shop,"
http://www.co.henry.ga.us/Government/HenryCountyBoardofCommissioners/District2-Commissioner.aspx
Omar Moreno What is happening here is, they are dumbing down our children.
Last year,I asked a 15 year old, "Who fought in the civil war in the United States?".....
The answer was, ( shrugged shoulders ) in "I Don't Know!"
I then asked,"Can you spell civil ?" ...... ans. was " S i v l e " ..........
Great, Huh?
The dumber/more brainwashed the populace is, the easier they are to control. Like good little sheep, being herded to the figurative slaughter. God knows the college system in this country has succeeded in producing an entire generation of brainwashed socialists/borderline communists, all the while raking in the bucks.
It was a request. Does it say it was a mandate?
There's plenty of examples how compromise can be reached on this.
Just seems there's mkre to the story here.
"If you don't learn from your past, your bound to repeat yourself."
Very true words.
"The dumber/more brainwashed the populace is, the easier they are to control. Like good little sheep, being herded to the figurative slaughter."
Even truer words.
Calico696 How long till that's illegal. I think as a county commissioner her request pretty much is a mandate. I sincerely hope there's more to it. This is an entirely appropriate venue for display of the flag.
SD..."More to the story".....from their facebook: https://www.facebook.com/NashFarmBattlefield/posts/1608056289213768
"Public Statement from the Board of Friends of Nash Farm Battlefield, Inc.
May 23, 2017
The Board of the Friends of Nash Farm Battlefield, Inc. is sad to announce that the museum, located on Nash Farm Battlefield, which was funded and maintained by our group, will close effective June 1, 2017. The main reason is that the current District 2 Commissioner, Dee Clemmons, has requested that ALL Confederate flags be removed from the museum, in addition to the gift shop, in an effort not to offend anyone. For anyone who studies the American Civil War, or War Between the States, they realize there were two parties that fought in this war. We have always prided ourselves with being an unbiased museum that told the entire story of the battles that took place on this property, as well as being a voice of the people in Henry County and Georgia during this time. These stories were told mainly through primary sources, sometimes secondary, but never tertiary sources. To exclude any Confederate flag would mean the historical value has been taken from our exhibits, and a fair interpretation could not be presented to each guest. Confederate flags were on this hallowed ground, as were the Union flags. To remove either of them would be a dishonor.
Additionally, Commissioner Clemmons stated that this property, which the county spent in excess of $8 million dollars, has no historical significance per the current board. Interestingly, the Department of Interior has recognized this property as core battlefield and there is a primary source where a request is made that the government pay retribution for the damage to the property during the battle. This is clear proof of the historical basis of this property; yet, more could be provided if necessary. This property has the blood of Union and Confederate soldiers in the soil and needs to be preserved as the battlefield that it is.
The Board of the Friends of Nash Farm Battlefield, Inc. complied when Commissioner Clemmons requested, soon after her taking office, that the entrenchments be removed from the property. When she had the Second National Confederate Flag removed from the flag pole where it has been flying since Henry County purchased the property, again we complied and did not create a disturbance in hopes that the museum would be left alone. The final order from Commissioner Clemmons is one that we cannot and will not comply with. We were told that we are at the “pleasure of the (Henry County) Commission”. Her directive is something we cannot comply with in good consciences.
To date, the museum, in its seven years of operation, has seen visitors from all 50 states and 15 foreign countries. Heritage tourism dollars have added money to the tax base in Henry and Clayton Counties, helping to fund many projects, including roads and schools. Prior to the recession, it was not uncommon to see over 2,000 students in a year; however, the yearly school day now has just shy of 500 students who visit not only the museum, but many different hands on stations to help to engage every student. Never have we had a teacher or student complain about the variety of flags or uniforms being presented in these educational settings. In fact, most teachers applaud our efforts to help them in the classroom.
The Friends of Nash Farm Battlefield, Inc. has not only been active on an educational aspect, but has helped Henry County in many ways to manage this beautiful battlefield. We have worked with the Boy Scouts, Eagles Scouts, the Audubon Society, Master Gardeners, Civil War Trust, and other community groups. Our volunteers have put up split rail fencing, painted, cleared barbed wire, mowed, graded roads, picked up debris, fixed many “broken” things around the property, and so much more. Our mission was to assist Henry County, not only with the historical aspect of the property, but to make this a property the entire community could be proud of. To be honest, majority of the people in District 2 are proud of Nash Farm Battlefield......
There will be many who will think the Friends of Nash Farm Battlefield, Inc. should have stood up to this censorship. Currently, the museum operates out of the old Nash farmhouse, which is owned by Henry County, and all utilities are paid by the county. The relics that were displayed, with the exception of a small amount that Henry County owns, were on loan to our group. When our key volunteer and donor made the decision to pull his relics, the Board had no other decision than to close the museum. We could have kept the doors open sporadically and showed beautiful display cases that were empty. When you engage in a conflict, your goal is to gain ground. The Board felt the only decision we had was to close the museum. This has not been an easy decision as many of our volunteers have donated much time, money, sweat, and tears to this property. The Friends of Nash Farm Battlefield was created after the Steering Committee was dissolved by the Henry County Board of Commissioners over 10 years ago. That is over a decade of work that some of our volunteers have contributed to this property.
As a Board, we ask that you contact not only Commissioner Clemmons, but also all the other Henry County Board of Commissioners, to let them know how you feel about the current political climate that affected the closing of Nash Farm Battlefield Museum. It is important that you voice your opinion to these politicians so they know there is public support for the historical aspect of this property.
Thank you to all the groups and individuals who have supported Friends of Nash Farm Battlefield, Inc. over the years. Our volunteers have been honored to work to preserve history and work diligently to improve the community. We can only hope that this property and its history will be sustained for future generations.
Respectfully Submitted by the Board of Friends of Nash Farm Battlefield, Inc."
Lower the Confederate flags pull down Confederate monuments and sandblast the names of Confederate leaders off the halls of universities. What's next? The mansion at Arlington National Cemetery? After all, it was owned by General Robert E. Lee. Raise the PC flag on high.
Frank D "The flag, in my eyes has nothing to do with the way people act, choosing to take it down will have no affect on how people act either. "
So it would be okay to wear a nazi flag shirt, for instance? It's okay to wear it and invoke history and heritage? Or are we using double standards?
GetOverYerself What's next is taking George Washington's name and his portrait off everything since he was a slave owner. That idiot d'blasio is already doing things like that in NYC. But is supporting a terrorist to march in the Puerto Rican day parade. Love liberal thinking.
Like I said, I think there's more here than meets the eye. It appears that the commissioner, and I say appears because not crystal clear, but it appears that the commissioner might be trying to hold to the "Gettysburg line" or the NPS line where:
" voluntarily withdraw from sale items that solely depict a Confederate flag."
The keys here are voluntarily (does not seem to quite be the case here although a bit hard to tell) and "solely" which seems to be the case when you look carefully at the wording in the articles (of which there are few).
Here's the Gettysburg Accord from the NPS: https://www.nps.gov/gett/learn/news/statement-regarding-the-confederate-flag.htm
The compromise is to not offer depictions of solely the Confederate flag which seems fair enough. There was a Confederate Flag Inauguration Day at Gettysburg this year, approved by the NPS, (not sure how that went) and Confederate Flags are always allowed for display in historical settings (monuments, etc.).
It is what it is, can't say I agree as to the extreme PC of the stand, but I can understand that glorifying what the flag stood for then, and the different things it might represent now, could be offensive to a lot of people. Seems pretty small change to me, but says, if you want to be PC, you can keep your stars n bars up in the garage but you should add a Stars n Stripes as well --- JohnC --- is that the 33 or 36 star version? And then to be totally PC, add the current stars n stripes above the two.
Now the question is if you display a Confederate (or Northern) regimental or state flag, do you have to display all the others?
SD,
Reading the story it is pretty clear the commissioner in question has been harassing the museum for quite some time
History is history, erase it and you are sure to repeat it.
and GetOverYerself, there are many Holocaust museums which display Nazi flags....it's history
"So it would be okay to wear a nazi flag shirt, for instance?"
Personally, no. But if someone wants to wear it do any of us have a right to stop them from doing so?
So the decision is really do we restrict by majority mandate (by force of course, because that's what a mandate/dictate requires) or educate and communicate?
Again Darrin --- there is no issue with historic settings as appropriate for flag waving. And perhaps the commissioner was ranting for some time but it appears ---- appears --- that the rant is consistent and consistent with the NPS stand.
It also appears that the museum, and it's display owners, did not wish any compromise. Otherwise, they would have complied as the park stores in the NPS system did. Not to mention that over time, given the volumes of trinkets that the NPS sells that most of these trinkets will be manufactured PC anyway.
Of course we have 1st amendment rights to wear and say what we want, except for rare occasions as specified by law. This is really not about that. Private store owners can do what they please as those in Gettysburg have done and probably have profited from over this whole bru-ha-ha. The stars n bars is making more moola from the masses than ever. The South has risen again!
http://www.pennlive.com/midstate/index.ssf/2015/06/gettysburg_confederate_flag_1.html
Much ado about nothing. The museum is closing bc the owner of the majority of their display pieces took them back. The museum makes that clear in their own statement.
Sure - they also state that happened due to pressure from a county commissioner. It's not ok to rewrite history
It's not clear what the commissioner actually requested, since we're only seeing one side of the story. More importantly, a request or statement by a Commissioner is not a mandate by the Commission.
"District 2 Commissioner, Dee Clemmons, has requested that ALL Confederate flags be removed from the museum, in addition to the gift shop, in an effort not to offend anyone." it's pretty clear
Still it's just a shame we can't have educational and historical displays without folks being offended. That's like going to aushwitz and saying don't display nazi artifacts. There's a time and a place for everything.
How long till they take Albert Pike down in Washington DC? Our children are being deprived of knowledge of our countries history as ugly as that may be.
Its very clear to me that this commissioner, over time, has been trying to control the museum, they finally just had enough, enough compromise on their part...judging by their story they compromised time and time again
Sure we can keep doing everything other tell us to do, or we can shut our doors and say screw you.....
You do know that this is a perfect example of everyone bringing their own preconceptions and baggage to the table. Like I said, I am pretty sure this commissioner stuck to the NPS guidelines which allow display in historical context and sale as long as not singular in nature but in context with that other flag of the time. Perhaps not perfect but certainly has not proven to be a showstopper to other park museum stores and a seeming benefit to local businesses.
Like I said, if you read all the stories, a different picture unfolds than one of flag persecution. Darrin et al, I will see your quotes and raise them:
"Clemmons told a local Fox affiliate that she asked the museum to remove the flag from out front, but said she had no issue with the flags on display inside the museum."
Meanwhile the Museum caretakers and donator heard what you all heard......so a spokesperson said:
"A Henry County Commissioner Spokesperson reiterated to a local CBS affiliate, however, that the county did not ask the museum to remove the flags.
"The county has not asked them to take down anything or to leave the museum.," she said to CBS46. "That was something they did voluntarily."
Eh, don't think that's quite true either --- I think she went with the NPS guidelines.
http://time.com/4795124/civil-war-museum-confederate-flag-closes/
If you read through all the news, and now there's more than 3 stories, you can see where it appears the county was trying to stick to the NPS guidelines. Those guidelines seem to be working in Gettysburg, seem to be profiting the local flag sellers, and except for staged memorials and protests --- history does not seem to be the worse for wear.
Personally I think although in bad taste to fly the Stars n Bars as your only flag of choice, a bit of a mountain out of a molehill and not really worth the NPS time or money to write up the guidelines much less enforce.
Sure let's sanitize and rewrite our history so we are doomed to repeat it. It's a bad move and bad policy. Pulling down the statue of Robert E. Lee is not wise. The communists rewrite history all the time and the progressives now are emulating that here and now.
Let's remove all uncomfortable history from everywhere so that we never have to see it ever again. Those who forget history are doomed to repeat it. Don't let it happen.
This PC progressive environment is producing more snowflakes than a snow machine at a ski resort.
Do I think the owner of the flags over reacted and "took their bat and ball and went home" probably- however as you stated we don't know what happened or how long this has been going on. Do I firmly believe that the sale of flags in the gift shop is a deminimis issue and the county should be focusing its attention elsewhere- most definitely
Condoleeza Rice had some insightful remarks on the topic:
“When you start wiping out your history, sanitizing your history to make you feel better, it’s a bad thing,”
“I’m a firm believer in ‘keep your history before you.’ And so I don’t actually want to rename things that were named for slave owners,” she continued. “I want us to have to look at the names and recognize what they did, and be able to tell our kids what they did and for them to have a sense of their own history.”
https://heatst.com/culture-wars/condoleezza-rice-thinks-we-shouldnt-tear-down-confederate-monuments/
I agree that museums are an appropriate place for confederate items.
But as to monuments, take a look at this passage from New Orleans Mayor Landrieu's recent speech:
"You see - New Orleans is truly a city of many nations, a melting pot, a bubbling cauldron of many cultures. There is no other place quite like it in the world that so eloquently exemplifies the uniquely American motto: e pluribus unum - out of many we are one. But there are also other truths about our city that we must confront. New Orleans was America's largest slave market: a port where hundreds of thousands of souls were bought, sold and shipped up the Mississippi River to lives of forced labor of misery of rape, of torture . America was the place where nearly 4000 of our fellow citizens were lynched, 540 alone in Louisiana; where the courts enshrined 'separate but equal'; where Freedom riders coming to New Orleans were beaten to a bloody pulp. So when people say to me that the monuments in question are history, well what I just described is real history as well, and it is the searing truth.
And it immediately begs the questions; why there are no slave ship monuments, no prominent markers on public land to remember the lynchings or the slave blocks; nothing to remember this long chapter of our lives; the pain, the sacrifice, the shame... all of it happening on the soil of New Orleans. So for those self-appointed defenders of history and the monuments, they are eerily silent on what amounts to this historical malfeasance, a lie by omission. There is a difference between remembrance of history and reverence of it."
There's tons of that stuff here in NC and I know mount Vernon has one. Charleston SC has a huge museum with a slave trading podium out front.
Nobody is saying to glamorize it or revere it - but this stuff has a place in education
Museums, yes. Monuments, not in many cases, as these were put up for reasons of reverence. Reverence of the wrong cause.
CBGB We are a melting pot.
I know no African Americans who are 100 percent Slave Ancesters.
Lots of races(including white) mixed in.
SO, the Confederate flag is fine.
We Americans should be colorblind;
Especially since Obama was half AA, and half white.
Stop trying to alter history, to make it politically correct/non offensive.
It took a lot of slaves to tend a plantation.
The Southerners had white slaves too.
English and Irish (many children).
Let it rest.
Move forward, and make the people in your life feel happy (not judged).
Instead of anger, Stir up some love.
Lili I really think many folks are blowing this out of proportion feeding in their homilies about repeating history, yada, yada....
IMO this NPS guideline is a bit over the top, can't imagine enforcement but the NPS guidelines are to allow all flags in historical settings. Period. There is just an admonition that care be taken to display all sides when appropriate versus favoring one versus the other.
So when you put your Confederate Flag in front of the Museum without a Northern equivalent, yeah, I could see where it might offend a sizeable portion of our Republic. But if the Northern Flag was not present in what you are commemorating, no need to post it. This park was Confederate ground but memorialized by the North/South battle there; flags should support that history. And when all you offer for sale is Confederate memorabilia --- ditto on the offense and then some. But again, seems to me that being forces to have to only both flags in one bag, or both on a single belt buckle is a bit over the top.... For example, on the flag-festooned bikini there will be an issue. No really problem on the upper, there's space for two flags :>) although there may be a right/left issue, but on the lower apparel piece --- who gets the front and who gets the back.....and who will be offended no matter what it chosen :>)
Meanwhile, Lili -- just saying....
" I know no African Americans who are 100 percent Slave Ancesters." I do.
"Lots of races(including white) mixed in." Yes, rape is a terrible thing. Jefferson Ho!!
"So, the Confederate flag is fine" as long as we all had sex with each other, that's your metric?
.
"We Americans should be colorblind; Especially since Obama was half AA, and half white." Uh, you did hear what you said in these two questions? And how do you know Obama was 50/50 ---- I thought we were really mixing it up? I saw we should be color aware and color sensitive whenever we can.
"Stop trying to alter history, to make it politically correct/non offensive." Really? Because some people are offended. You want to take that away from them by telling them they are altering history? Good luck with that. I just don't know why you must force people to think like you :>)
"It took a lot of slaves to tend a plantation. The Southerners had white slaves too. English and Irish (many children)." OMG --- you are kidding right? Indentured servants, not slaves dear. You have some sort of false equivalency if you believe indentured servitude, as bad as it could be, was the same as slavery. Fake research on this one.
"Move forward, and make the people in your life feel happy (not judged).
Instead of anger, Stir up some love." 100% on that one. Just saying :>)
"" I know no African Americans who are 100 percent Slave Ancesters." I do."
so what? who cares who you know? means nothing in this conversation
" "Stop trying to alter history, to make it politically correct/non offensive." Really? Because some people are offended. You want to take that away from them by telling them they are altering history? Good luck with that. I just don't know why you must force people to think like you :>)""
BUSTED!!! you got that exactly backwards as usual. I'm offend that you're offended, what a load of crap
If anyone truly believes that flying that flag offends no one then fly it on your car antenna or put it across your back window , preferably at night in the Camden/Patterson/Newark streets . And if someone cuts you off just say , oh it's okay there were white slaves too ! I'm sure the young black gentlemen will be very accommodating to you and your stuck in the past white racist asses !
Zombo Does the difference between that and a museum escape you? Your post is an example of the "Outrage Culture" we need to end. If you misinterpret everything said in the most negative possible light I sincerely feel sorry for you. Not everything is evidence of racism, white male privilege or misogyny.
Strangerdanger: thanks for proving MY point.
"You have some sort of false equivalency if you believe . . . " lol, pot meet kettle, methinks you need a clearer mirror, lol,
what.a.load.of.crap
Yeah no doubt - my only point was for educational and historical purposes this stuff is valid - only posted it here because it referenced the flag and did not want to start a new thread. All good in the hood
So this bringing back of an old post is about a museum being closed ? Well forget my last post then - didn't follow my own rule of reading through before commenting , I apologize for that . I agree with John C about where that flag should be displayed .
There are two sides to every story . According to this one the commissioner only wanted the flags removed that were displayed in the bookstore windows that could be seen by everyone passing by the museum and the volunteers running the museum claims it was all Confederate flags so they decided to close it down , but are continuing to preserve the battlefield . Since the county commissioner was elected and not appointed she can be removed from that office in the next election . And if she's lying even sooner than that !
http://www.timesfreepress.com/news/breakingnews/story/2017/may/29/georgia-civil-war-museum-closes-after-spat-over-confederate-flag/430651/
Zombo and I edited posts simultaneously- reverse them for proper cadence - in any regard I sincerely don't think anyone would be offended seeing displayed flags for the purpose of historical education in any context- regardless if they were in a window. I find it curious that they would want to display such items in a way where they could be damaged by the sun - but I'm not an expert.
"in any regard I sincerely don't think anyone would be offended seeing displayed flags for the purpose of historical education in any context- regardless if they were in a window."
Very true Skippy, + 1
If anyone is offended by the display for historical purposes then I am offended by their being 'offended'. When are those who are 'offended' going to widen their tent enough to be inclusive of history?
Oh yeah, and another thing, bring back the statue of Robert E. Lee. It's a big mistake to erase history.
So Hadenough, do you also object to statues of Sadam Hussein coming down in Iraq? Lenin coming down in Russia? Are they making big mistakes by erasing history?
Should people be forced to look up to statues of people they no longer revere?
""in any regard I sincerely don't think anyone would be offended seeing displayed flags for the purpose of historical education in any context- regardless if they were in a window."
I believe that's all the commissioner was trying to say, albeit perhaps not clearly. It is certainly what the NPS guidelines call for. And while I am not in total agreement, I get it..
The point is a singular focus. So historical -- OK, single OK IF historical. But in other settings, be sure all flags of the time displayed. OK -- I get that.
But to force all people to put both flags on a belt buckle, bikini, etc. seems a bit much. Like when will we police improper tattoos over this? I mean if people want to buy a Confederate flag or flag festooned object I say we should let them fly it proud and follow Zombo's Law. I mean they mean something by buying it, displaying it, and everyone seeing it feels something about it ---- so let their freak flags fly if they want to.
Just not at a public park by those serving the public.
Hey, was the General Lee in the parade this year?
I think Darrin might have had a choice recently to take action whether to continue to display in garage or not, how did that turn out?
Did you know there's a park in Moscow for severed heads from toppled statues?
http://www.amusingplanet.com/2015/11/the-graveyard-of-fallen-monuments.html
Now that's history!
Comparing RE Lee to Saddam Hussein or VI Lenin? That's not exactly fair. He graduated second in his class at West Point and distinguished himself in the US Army before choosing to join his home state of West Virginia in the Confederacy. By all accounts he was a gifted leader and strategist and as ethical as any military commander in the Union Army, if not more so.
ianimal ianimal, I was talking about the concept introduced by a poster, that statues should not be taken down because that's erasing history (it's not).
I actually agree that Robert E. Lee was mostly a good man (despite his performance at Gettysburg, lol). But if people want his statue to come down because to them it represents the cause of keeping slavery, then I'm okay with it. It won't erase his history.
What goes up, can come down.
Yeah he was golden right up to that Gettysburg thing....
Apparently one heck of a man, loved and respected by one and all I believe.
As far as all flags of the period - I guess they can display newly manufactured ones but if they don't have original flags in their collection how can they comply with that? These folks are the experts on curriculum development for historical education I think unless they are doing something particularly egregious leave them alone. And yes I agree the first amendment protects your right to wear any insanity you want - but you better be able to defend yourself. It's like the guy in Phillipsburg who named his kid Hittler - you have a right to do it - but probably not the best of ideas.
I say we bring this party home. Let's march across the South, like Sherman to Atlanta, burning all Confederate flags, replacing with our rightful flag --- the 36-Stars n Stripes.
Has this thread jumped the shark yet?
Robert E Lee was Lincoln's first choice for head of the Union Army. Lee ultimately couldn't bring himself to go against his native Virginia.
MeisterNJ The 35 star flag would work much better and Lee was from Virginia Ianimal.... Not West Virginia. Maybe the next parade we'll put on our confederate uniforms and carry the 9th Virginia battleflag. Nah... I save that for Pequest this weekend.
I know, John C... must still have had West Point on my brain while typing that. My apologies (-;
Oh, and skippy... P'burg has its share of problems, but Heath Hitler (nee Campbell), isn't one of them. He was from Holland Township, so if you need to blame a post office, blame Milford (-;
"Robert E Lee was also against slavery"
That's not at all clear. He saw the evils of slavery, but also protected it. Maybe best to say he was a mostly-good man whose views were of his time and place. Those views would not be acceptable now. (True of many others, but some of those, like Lincoln, moved things in the right direction.)
John C may correct me but I believe he was offered a General Officers slot on both sides and merely took the position in the CSA because of his allegiance to his beloved Virginia.
Lincoln was all for protecting slavery in the South; only the situation during the War forced the emancipation proclamation which actually did not free all slaves.
Why? Because he didn't want to screw with the South and was going with the "slavery is economically unsound and will burn itself out" theory. Not sure I agree but there it was.
In the beginning.... Lincoln, according to the Republican platform, called for not allowing slavery in any new expansion state. IMO this is what caused the War because the fat cats in the South no like that, ruins their future plans of Western domination via cotton, so they talk normal folks into thinking Lincoln against slavery in the South, will ruin their very way of life, state's rights, Southern culture, and let's confederate....War ensues to protect slavery for the West -- neither Lincoln or the Republican party was directly aiming at the South initially.
He warned em what would happen before they confederated and in 1863, issued his Emancipation Proclamation freeing slaves in any rebelling states, and not changing anything in slave states not rebelling, that's about 25% of the existing people under slavery. It was the rebellion that forced his hand and changed his policy. Couldn't even do it right, had to issue an Executive Order.
Twas the 13th amendment, passed in 1865, that ended slavery for all the states via law, not Presidential proclamation based on only states under rebellion (hmmm, unconstitutional Executive Order you say). That was part of Lincoln's pitch, it was the Republican platform, but obviously Lincoln was not there for the ratification by the states; he had passed.
Zombo's Law ? NO NO NO THERE IS NO Zombo Law ! SD is surely kidding as the reference I was referring to was the 10th post on this two year old thread by John C , which makes the most sense of all on this subject . Now if there were a Zombo Law it would be against visiting company using a smartphone to mindlessly stare at while supposedly coming to your domicile to communicate with you and yours . It would be passed by the zombie Congress, except the millennials who would be too busy texting to bother to vote , and the undead Senate , who would pass it 99-0 with Bernie Sanders actually being dead and no one notices . Dead corpse president Pat Paulsen would drop a rotted finger onto it to sign it into law .
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qn69wP-jD2Y
Confederate General Robert E. Lee freed his slaves (which he never purchased — they were inherited) in 1862! Lee freed his slaves several years before the war was over, and considerably earlier than his Northern counterparts.
from snopes:
Slavery in the United States
In the wake of the June 2015 racially motivated shooting that left nine people dead at the Emanuel African Methodist Episcopal Church in Charleston, South Carolina, and the renewed debate that event prompted about the propriety of displaying Confederate flags on the grounds of the South Carolina state capital (and elsewhere), a long-circulating article advertised as dispelling “falsehoods and inaccuracies of Confederate and Southern history” attracted renewed interest.
Addressing and correcting the many inaccuracies and misleading statements contained in that piece would require a very lengthy article, so we have chosen to tackle it here in smaller, more easily digestible chunks. Our first installment dealt with the history of the Confederate flag; in this second installment, we examine “facts” asserted in a section of “the Truth about Confederate History” about the practice of slavery in the U.S. and its eventual abolition.
Specifically, we’ll be assessing the statements from “the Truth about Confederate History” reproduced in the shaded box below, which claim to be separating myth from fact (while doing anything but):
MYTH: Only Southerners owned slaves.
FACT: Entirely untrue. Many Northern civilians owned slaves. Prior to, during and even after the War of Northern Aggression.
Surprisingly, to many history impaired individuals, most Union Generals and staff had slaves to serve them! William T. Sherman had many slaves that served him until well after the war was over and did not free them until late in 1865.
U.S. Grant also had several slaves, who were only freed after the 13th amendment in December of 1865. When asked why he didn’t free his slaves earlier, Grant stated “Good help is so hard to come by these days.”
Contrarily, Confederate General Robert E. Lee freed his slaves (which he never purchased — they were inherited) in 1862! Lee freed his slaves several years before the war was over, and considerably earlier than his Northern counterparts. And during the fierce early days of the war when the South was obliterating the Yankee armies!
Lastly, and most importantly, why did NORTHERN States outlaw slavery only AFTER the war was over? The so-called “Emancipation Proclamation” of Lincoln only gave freedom to slaves in the SOUTH! NOT in the North! This pecksniffery even went so far as to find the state of Delaware rejecting the 13th Amendment in December of 1865 and did not ratify it (13th Amendment / free the slaves) until 1901!
I didn't start this thread Zombo LOL! I did find it interesting that the reason Delaware did not pass the 13th amendment was not due to continuing the institution of slavery but they felt it was an illegal over reach of the federal government over states rights. I admit I had to look that one up.
Hadenough, what is the purpose of your post? You are listing the mostly-false claims that snopes is debunking, while not mentioning that snopes is debunking them.
The Emancipation Proclamation was issued under Lincoln's role as commander-in-chief. He felt he could only free slaves in areas under rebellion against the U.S., as a necessary measure to help win the war.
Here's some more :
From 1854 to 1859 Grant managed his father-in-law’s farm, White Haven, where a number of slaves lived and worked. But again, those slaves belonged to Grant’s father-in-law, so Grant himself had no legal authority to set them free. (Some of the slaves at White Haven eventually drifted off during the Civil War; any that remained were freed when Missouri’s constitutional convention abolished slavery in January 1865.)
The statement attributed to Grant about not his freeing his slaves earlier than December 1865 (when the 13th Amendment was adopted) because “Good help is so hard to come by these days” is almost certainly an apocryphal one. No credible documentation records Grant as having said such a thing, and he was only ever in a position to emancipate a single slave, which he did back in 1859. “Contrarily, Confederate General Robert E. Lee freed his slaves (which he never purchased — they were inherited) in 1862! Lee freed his slaves several years before the war was over, and considerably earlier than his Northern counterparts.”
Robert E. Lee, the commander of the Confederate Army of Northern Virginia and (from 1865) the general-in-chief of Confederate forces, neither owned slaves nor inherited any, thus it is not correct to assert that he “freed his slaves” (in 1862 or at any other time).
As in the case of Ulysses S. Grant, the slaves that Lee supposedly owned actually belonged to his father-in-law, George Washington Parke Custis, and lived and worked on the three estates owned by Custis (Arlington, White House, and Romancoke). Upon Custis’ death in 1857, Lee did not “inherit” those slaves; rather, he carried out the directions expressed in Custis’ will regarding those slaves (and other property) according to his position as executor of Custis’ estate.
Custis’ will stipulated that all of his slaves were to be freed within five years: “… upon the legacies to my four granddaughters being paid, then I give freedom to my slaves, the said slaves to be emancipated by my executor in such manner as he deems expedient and proper, the said emancipation to be accomplished in not exceeding five years from the time of my decease.” So while Lee did technically free those slaves at the end of 1862, it was not his choice to do so; he was required to emancipate them by the conditions of his father-in-law’s will.
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