College Financial Gap

College Financial Gap

http://samuelwbennett.com/the-struggle/the-college-gap-no-one-is.html

Centenary college (according to this author) has a negative ROI for attendance..

Any thoughts on weather college (out side of STEM careers) is even worth it anymore?

skippy skippy
May '15

Not surprised about Centenary College.
It is packed with part time adjuncts.
A very small percentage of the teaching staff are actually full time professors.

hapiest girl
May '15

Just last week, I overheard people at work discussing something related to this. Their strategy is to send their U.S. public-school educated children back to India to study at the best colleges there for a fraction of the price of U.S. colleges. Upon graduation, their children return to the U.S. for jobs where they may end up making 100K or more with a few years of experience.

Wendy Wendy
May '15

not sure about that - but to actually lose money on a degree is wow.

skippy skippy
May '15

hapiest girl - That has nothing to do with it. The problem is the price of the degree vs the income of the chosen career.

skippy - That's averages and a simplistic view of education from a web site with an agenda. Sometimes the same school is totally worth it for a degree in engineering, but not for a degree in art history. You can get medical degrees from the same places that offer teacher certificates. College and the degree isn't the right start. The best idea is to start with what career path you want, and then figure out the optimal path to get there.


Centenary is very expensive because it's a private school and that's supposed to be a better education. You can take 2 courses at Montclair for the price of one at Centenary and get done sooner. Lots of people don't do their homework when it comes to college fees.

Brian Catanzaro Brian Catanzaro
May '15

As I said - exempting stem curriculum degrees

skippy skippy
May '15

GC - Have to disagree with you. There are many degrees offered and many of them can lead to high income jobs. The truth is that more doors open to those who are better educated, and who come from schools with a high reputation.

hapiest girl
May '15

Centenary has some excellent adjuncts. Some are even better instructors than the gray hairs who've been there forever. The state of New Jersey is a mess. No jobs for the graduates to fill.

fussylady fussylady
May '15

I don't think it comes down to the state of NJ....it's the state of the "union". New Jersey doesn't have the edge of the job market/college degrees...it's in every state. Since the recession (or whatever that was) in 2007....there is a different job market. Many employers are hiring temporary or "until we don't need you" type workers....limited or no benefits,etc. The mindset of 20-30 year old is not to work for one employer forever....changing different jobs/careers, etc. and going where opportunities take you.

A college degree is not just about the courses and the piece of paper you end up with...it's a process of determining what you like/don't like to do; what you're good at/not so good, etc. So...to put a price tag on that is impossible and short-sighted. Once you have the degree no one can take it away...it may open doors or not...but it depends on the person. Someone can have PhD's and numerous advanced degrees, but if they don't have drive, determination and be passionate about their job/career...they won't last. Yes... some schools have high price tags and their alum may/may not get decent jobs... but as pointed out - that website is extremely biased.

When I graduated "back in the day" with a BS degree - it was during a recession and I had $10,000 in student loans to repay. At the time that was TONS of money...but it was paid off in 10 years...I didn't hurry to repay b/c it was low % rate and could be deducted on taxes. Students today many times come out of school with $50,000-$75,000 in debt and that can take years to repay. Not sure that all of them realized that when they signed the paperwork. But in the long run...they make more money than a student who started to work right out of high school.... run those numbers....then decide on a college degree or not.

There are many inexpensive ways to get a degree - take courses at community college for 1-2 years (basic/same courses as a larger university) then transfer and finish 2-3 years at larger university/college.

Shelley2cats Shelley2cats
May '15

Good points - just saying that students and parents need to do some strategic planning for their future - the wrong major can land you qualified to be a barista with little opportunity for future advancement

skippy skippy
May '15

"Any thoughts on weather college (out side of STEM careers) is even worth it anymore?" If you use the averages, it is clear that a college degree will easily repay the investment while granting a much better life-long salary than a high school degree. Easily. That's the averages, it does not say that a motivated lucky person with a high school degree can not do well or as well or that a person picking a low-paying college degree in a competitive field will do better. It is not a give me.

"just saying that students and parents need to do some strategic planning for their future - the wrong major can land you qualified to be a barista with little opportunity for future advancement" hits the nail right on the head. Not only that but careful school research can better assure you the best bang for the buck. You not only need to check the salary for the major but you need to check the market. Is it looking for people, oversaturated, low cost workers coming in, and where will it be x years from now when you graduate? Oh yeah, it's a good thing to like what you're doing too :>)

A small private school will probably cost more. People go there for other reasons that large public schools can not fulfill.

School's reputations change over time. Cornell, for example, was a fantastic value but today is probably a great education for a great price as they sell the brand they developed over the past few decades at a premium today. Like buying a Suby Forrester. Years ago when it started, it was a great deal but today you pay for the brand reputation.

Meanwhile on the study itself. The big variables of the study are cost of education and commensurate salaries. The costs are published, the salaries are not clearly described as how they are calculated but there's got to be a good deal of estimation going on. I smell a rat. So if you look at schools with equal costs to Centenary, you will see a wide range of salaries reported. It is unclear how the salary inputs are calculated. But that's where the discrepancy lies. It's more in the degrees offered than the school's ability to teach to a certain salary level.

Of the six schools including Centerary hovering around 167K in cost, 2 are zero or negative gain, and 4 are between 300 to 500K ROI. One of these is Rutgers Newark. It just seems weird that a range of -56K to 560K range exists between these two schools. If the salary info is apples to apples, the answer must be in the degrees offered. Rutgers has Criminal Justice, Nursing, and a lot of science -- top notch science programs. Centenary does not. So as much as you can fault the school, you can fault the student for choosing those degrees.

So the study says go to Harvey Mudd, Caltech, Stevens, Col. School of Mines, Babson or Stanford. Harvey Mudd and Col. School of Mines surprised to me. I think the point is that you should carefully investigate the market, salary potential of the degree you are looking at independent of school. And then pick a school with the best bang for the buck. And remember, like everything else you can pay a premium for a brand or you can mine some lesser known gems for better value.

No matter what, college's are a rip so studies like this help create the competition they sorely need. Centenary has a problem at the core level of it's offer. Given the success and positive strides their President has had, I expect she will remedy this in short order. But even if not addressed, if Centenary has a full enrollment, then they are offering a product people want; some people are just not in it for the money.

For colleges being a rip, I actually fault the entitlement system. We have institutionalized "free money," and one of the effects is the colleges padding their bill to take advantage. They make dorm living a vacation and pass the bill to your low-cost taxpayer supported loan. They have really good margins and pass the bill to the tax payer. They have great benefits, state workers are impressed, and pass the bill to...... I agree with supporting education to make America world-class competitive, but the college welfare program needs to be retooled, re-engineered, and refocused on keeping colleges highly competitive with each other.

mistergoogle mistergoogle
May '15

Excellent Analysis - I whole heartedly agree, also your points on student loan debt and competitiveness in higher education are spot on.

skippy skippy
May '15

Although it may not seem like it with all the talk, I think we're mostly saying the same thing. Get the right education for the right job. It doesn't always have to be college, it doesn't always have to be a more expensive private school. Yes, some universities have a name that helps but that's no guarantee either. A degree in a field that isn't the university's specialty isn't that much of a help.

And further if a person's own skill and ability is taken into consideration, then they can make their own opportunities with or without a degree, particularly an expensive "name" degree.

Planning is the key which is what I was trying to express before about choosing a career, and then making the best plan to get there.


Agreed GC

skippy skippy
May '15

I went to a community college in South Jersey and Centenary. They were polar oppisites. the CC was cheap and the school had NO idea what it was doing, disorganized and horrible and while cheap, they did not plan or tell students to plan on the traditional 2 years there...I have one friend from highschool that took 6 years full time to get out of there. the teachers who worked for pennies to be there were there because they wanted to. Most had second jobs.

Centenary, the school is very well organized and they have a good idea what they're doing, they're actually helpful to students, but many of the adjuncts are next to worthless. I had one for web development teaching 10 year old materials, I've had others who can't answer simple questions or give a valid option without googling or going back to a textbook, and most teachers there rely on very few points for grading students, most don't post grades often if at all, and few seem to actually have or use office hours - however the school had a tutoring center and my experience tutoring a few kids was that the center did good. The school tries had, but some of the teachers don't.

No matter where you go these days, no one is preparing students for the real world, you can't walk out with a job unless you teach yourself or intern. Its the schools and teachers's fault for not keeping up to date on materials, letting classes end daily an hour short, and teaching high levels ideas without any real world use and its the students fault for being too drunk (especially at Centenary - like 80% of the school is hammered daily) and too attached to their cell phones to actually try to get something out of a class for more than about 3 minutes a day. I don't give college much credit for my education, the skills I use for my job are all self taught, but some classes did expand my interests - the most useful ones for the general eds.

Its also too easy to get "free for 4 years" money from Sallie Mae at a 9% interest rate on $38,000 a year and when you lack any motivation for anything and spend 80% of your time drunk, and have professors who lack up to date information and enthusiasm for anything.

Centenary is a weekend commuter school, most everyone is local (within an hour), students treat it as a community college or summer camp, and even call it Centenary Community College. Probably half of them came from CCM.

Disclaimer: I had some great teachers at both school, the best teacher I had at community college was a Centenary graduate. The quality of the students varied greatly, few, if any at centenary seemed to put real effort into anything, while at community college students under about 21 generally put no effort into anything, but the older the students got the more they tried. I took as many night classes as I could, with working adults, because those classes progressed so much better.

mistergoogle, Centenary does have Criminal Justice (My girlfriend graduated with that), and they're actually great teachers. Ex cops and detectives and security guards.

alpha1beta alpha1beta
May '15

Ooops, Yes Centenary does have CJ offer. It's just that Rutgers is top rated.....

I think 80% hammered daily is probably a stretch but whether in college or not, I think the "hammer rate" is probably about the same. I will say I got hammered almost every day at college but always after my studies were complete. If I was working, there would have been little difference. It's an age thing.

I would be hammered every day still if my body would just let me :>)

mistergoogle mistergoogle
May '15

Harvard is free if your family's income is less than $125K Stamford and Cooper Union are also free
Best ROI if you've got the smarts

H-town Mama H-town Mama
May '15

That's right H-town Mama.
My sister went to Cooper Union.
But it's only for the Cream of the Crop.

hapiest girl
May '15

There are times when Harvard or other big Ivy Leagues schools are free. Other times when they are $260,000 for a degree. Perhaps that's part of the 'gap' problem. Why is it six figures for one and not another? As a student or parent I would always believe it's their problem and not mine. Not a good situation even if you're on the winning side of it. And who is going to believe they don't deserve the right side of the equation? After all, it's *ME*.

I'd pass on that.

All the more reason to question what you really get for the 'Name'. I interviewed for one of those places. They already assumed I could cut it and only wanted to know what I, as the person receiving their exceptional gift to me, would do in return for them. Would I reciprocate on their political and financial expectations on me as the recipient of their clear overwhelming generosity of exclusivity?? They told me in no uncertain terms that I wasn't ready to pay them back their 'debt' I would be clearly due. Totally passed on that.

The name wasn't worth my soul.


This inequality of paying for education has been around for decades. Is it fair for one family to save money every month from the birth of their child until college, month after month and year after year, and for another family that didn't save a dime all that time and then complains and wants a free ride?


GC, it's 260k because it's for 3 ;)

MeisterNJ MeisterNJ
May '15

1) Foreigners usually pay 100% face value and out-of-state costs, they are an important draw for many schools
2) Kids who excel do deserve scholarships. It is about commitment and the promise of doing something great in the future
3) I went to school in New York and they had the HEOP program (for the "poor") to fully pay for school, extra remedial classes and guidance, books, and a little spending money. When I check for those who donate to my school I see hardly any of these deadbeats donating even though a lot of them have good jobs.

The World Is Not Fair. In a country like India with 1.2 billion people they are pushy because otherwise you will never get to the front of the line. Sad, but we are getting the same way here...


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