Looks like we really are all Brothers? Genesis 4:1-2
If Man evolved from Monkeys and Apes, why do we still have Monkeys and Apes ?
http://www.iflscience.com/plants-and-animals/handful-bronze-age-men-could-have-fathered-two-thirds-europeans
Old Gent Because man *didn't* evolve from monkeys and apes. We all evolved from a common ancestor.
If God created man (Homo Sapiens) in his own image, why did he apparently much earlier create Homo Erectus and Neanderthals and dozens of other now extinct hominid species? Just test runs?
ianimal Man did not evolve from modern apes. Man and modern apes share a common ancestor, which is extinct. However, the question comes from a flawed understanding of how evolution works. Evolution is not a straight line, where entire populations change into new species all at the same time. Often times, a small group breaks away from a population and begins to evolve independently of the source group. The source group does not need to go extinct,
John z 
jd2 God did create man, humans, in his own image, but what that actually means is up to God. It certainly is not necessarily in a physical sense. Evolution was God's implementation plan to create man in his image. Apparently God is into evolving.
mistergoogle "Apparently God is into evolving."
Rather ironic, given that his most fundamentalist adherents in the Islamo-Judeo-Christian faiths are not only opposed to progress but would like to push society back a few hundred years (-;
"but what that actually means is up to God. It certainly is not necessarily in a physical sense."
If we can't explain it then god must have done it, or he works in mysterious ways. I prefer to replace god with a simple "I don't know".
I don't believe in him but if there is a god and he created us in his image, he is not a very good god considering man is, in nature, fallible. If this so called god is omnipotent and omniscient then he knows everything and is all powerful which means he knew what he was creating in the first place and new his mighty plan was set to fail. These nonsensical beliefs baffle me.
Jazzykatt 
n=334
All this proves is one handful of Europeans decended from 3 guys, which is not inconceivable in the grand scheme of things.
Common Sense Many have children that that don't turn out as the parents wish either, so it is with us sinners. He came to earth to show us a way to over come sin.
Where is know it all Darwin when you need him? Didn't he invent the theory of evolution?
CraftBeerBob 
oldredOf course God is into evolving; things change all the time. Even what some sinner see as "pushing things back" is just things evolving. Backwards might even be forwards.
"I don't believe in him but if there is a god and he created us in his image, he is not a very good god considering man is, in nature, fallible." Uh freewill, remember. We can all choose to be in God's image or we can choose another more devilish countenance.
Not to mention God's children, the aliens that really kick started our climb up the evolutionary path.
Faith is just that, and if the aliens have it like I do, then they too believe they are created in God's image. That works for me too.
There is only one single "answer to life the universe and everything" and that universal truth is the number 42 although I still believe 73 is the best number.
That assumes we're the finished product...Looks to me like a lot more testing is needed!
yankeefan To quote Elwood Blues, God works in mysterious ways.
Whatever the details of how we got here, we're all bros, bro.
Andy Loigu 
btownguy 
skippy ian, jazzykat and other skeptics, maybe we did evolve form a common ancestor, who knows? missing links are just that, still missing
the theroy of evolution is just that, and the big bang theory is also just that, another theory,
the theroies make sense as far as we can tell, but there may be more to the equation that is so far left 'unseen'. and that's why the theories themselves evolve over time.
the Genesis account in the bible walks hand in hand, step by step with both the big bang theory and the theory of evolution, they actually don;t conflict, but rather compliment each other
as the g-man suggested, and i have posted before, evolution is the mechanism that rolls out the creation. how, where, and who started it all rolling is in the creators hands,
hawking has said that he can explain how the big bang happened while at the same time he emphasizes that he can't explain why, hawking admits to the limits of his knowledge,
also "created in our image" is a reference to the spirit or soul, not the flesh and blood which comes from the clay in the ground, we were molded by the earth, that's what it is saying, but it was the creator that gave us the breath of life, iow, the soul. our souls were created in the creators 'image', not our bodies.
our bodies are the vehical that our soul uses to travel through this life in, (that's why it's a temple) and at the end of the bodies life, the soul is freed from the bonds of the flesh (or earth or clay)
it's all laid out there in the book, pick it up and leaf through it sometime, and come back with your observations, questions, and complaints, it's all good.
BrotherDog 
Joe M 
We hold these truths to be somewhat evident:
James Brown IS the Godfather of Soul.
Phil Collins was not genesis, Gabriel blew that horn
As the Bible says: Kings 2:23
"Then he went up from there to Bethel; and as he was going up the road, some youths came from the city and mocked him, and said to him, “Go up, you bald head! Go up, you bald head!” So he turned around and looked at them, and pronounced a curse on them in the name of the Lord. And two female bears came out of the woods and mauled forty-two of the youths."
42, get it.
Look to the Prophet Keanu for the answer of how both science and religion can be right and can coexist.
Don't like to make fun of anybody or sound mean-spirited ... but ...
in an office where I worked about 30 years ago, there was a guy we called "the missing link."
You couldn't have a conversation with the guy ... he was ... well, not like other humans.
"the theory of evolution is just that, and the big bang theory is also just that, another theory"
It is a theory based on factual evidence. The bible would hold more credence if it were actually written by this so called god. It can't be proven to be more than a bunch of man-made stories. There were older gods that were worshipped before the Christian god. Were they false? Do you believe in Zeus, Thor, and Osiris? What gives one more credence than the other? Who is to say that in 1000 years from now a different god won't be worshipped?
Alanis Morissette gave an eloquent explanation in her song "Forgiven". It is about her life in the Catholic Church and about how humans NEED something to believe in. I don't need something to believe in and I most certainly would not believe in the vengeful, murderous god depicted in the bible.
There are so many contradictions and non-explanations to religion. I sometimes feel bad about exposing them because I do not like taking people's security blanket away. I have a friend whose child is dying. What do you say to a person in that situation? Many people say they will pray for her child. Isn't god the one who caused the suffering to begin with. He is all knowing so he created this child and he created the disease that is killing this child. He is also all powerful but yet chooses to sit by and watch the suffering. Wasn't he supposed to suffer so we didn't have to? Guess that was a fallacy. I was angry when I woke up from religion but now I'm not angry anymore because I don't believe there is anyone up there to be angry with.
Give me proof that a god exists and don't say "The Bible"; I could easily say "Grimm’s Fairy Tales". A book is a book and is not based on solid evidence unless backed by scientific data.
Jazzykatt,
1. The Bible IS inspired by God, I cannot "prove" anything but I'll give you one example:
It is remarkable how many ancient cultures have a Flood story very similar to the account in Genesis, even though they had not had any contact with each other. How do you explain this if the flood story is just a "myth" But don't take my word for it, I encourage you to read this link and look it up on your own.
http://www.talkorigins.org/faqs/flood-myths.html#
2. List one contradiction in the Bible.
3. God did not GIVE that child the disease. The Devil did. I encourage you to read the first couple chapters of Job in the Bible for more on that. God gave us Humans free will. We then used that free will to bring sin into the world. All the screwed up things happening in the world is the result of our sin.
4. Jesus did suffer on our part to take away our sins. But we have to accept his gift of eternal life with God, it isn't automatic. And once we do accept his gift, God never promises a perfect life, in fact he says that it will be very hard, and we will be persecuted. But it will be worth all that to be in Heaven, spending eternity in God's glory. :)
Feel free to pm me with questions.
Matt101 One scientific fact is, you are going to die. Jesus said " I go to prepare a place for you"
to his followers. Thats a promise for a greater life after death. (John 2)
His followers must make a commitment to accept him as Lord of there life here on earth,site unseen. Once you feel the peace in your life through all life troubles you will soon accept him on faith alone. Everyone has there own story. If you PM me I would be glad to tell you mine. I burred a wife and a child. It's long story for me a person that is not a typist.
The fact that floods exist is proof of anything? I'm sure that floods happened everywhere in the world at various times in history. The "myth" is that Noah filled a boat with two of every species of animal on the planet.
If God is omnipotent, why doesn't he just kill Satan for making little children suffer? The least he could do is banish him to the Phantom Zone with General Zod, lol
Also, weren't Noah and his family supposedly the only people on the planet who survived the flood? If that were true, how was anyone else able to write about it?
ianimal, I can tell you didn't read the page. ;) please read and notice how similar the accounts are, with many of them having something about the whole world being covered and one group of people being saved by a boat of some sort
The temptation of Christ is in the Gospels of Matthew, Mark,1 and Luke.2 The bible has a lot to say about Satan. Jesus fasted for forty days and nights in the desert dealing with him.
that is correct, but we get the other accounts because after the flood his family spread out as they were told to by God (Genesis 9:7)
I believe the flood covered all living things within the local area. The Ark is believed to be in Turkey, but the Turks refuse to allow any search for it.
It's a Love thing people......God wants a personal relationship with each one of us by faith. It's purely optional and yes as in any relationship there will be ups and downs with many trials to overcome. Christ came to rebuild that bridge and to show us how to have a relationship with Him.
It's simply a Love thing :)
Hot corner Another thread where certainty prevails. That being the case, I'll add my own certainty to the mix: I'm certain that everyone posting in this thread is wrong about part or all of their beliefs. Why? Because like all "theories" this too is based on assumptions because none of us could possibly know with certainty. Recall that not too long ago the Big Bang Theory (the scientific theory, not the TV show!) was commonly thought to be true in the scientific world. Hmm, not so sure now. Before that? World was flat, we're the center of the universe, and so on.
Enjoy the debate but don't take it too seriously!
justintime That other tread was about the After Life.showing the spiritual experience's of some. It shows we humans as a spiritual being have a choice of where we put our faith. Choose wisely.Each will live or die with your choice.
So, Matt... if Satan is the cause of disease in young children and God does nothing at all to aid their suffering while scientists do everything in their power to heal them and cure the diseases caused by Satan... does it not logically follow that scientists are far more moral than God?
And actually, we get the other accounts because we know that there are things known as earthquakes and tsunamis that cause coastal flooding and massive devastation to civilizations that logically pop up near the oceans (because that was where the food was).
Or, are you trying to say that the Polynesian people of the Pacific Islands are descendants of Noah (or anyone of the Judaic era)? That would be one of the more ridiculous claims I have ever heard.
Refer back to original post. Jesus said, to spread the Good News around the world.That was only 2000 years ago.
I don't take the Bible literally, so much of it is metaphor. Other parts of the world, other races and cultures, were not known at the time those Bible stories first were written --- I believe it is the divinely inspired message from God, but some limited human being had to do the actual writing.
As someone who has done a lot of writing myself, I know we certainly are limited human beings who do not know everything.
I don't believe some guy named Jonah actually got swallowed up by a whale, but I get the message of the story and find it meaningful.
Too bad Frank Fowler does not participate in these boards (actually, that's probably the reason he keeps his sanity) ... it would be interesting to get his viewpoint on all this.
Ianimal,
first of all, there is no such thing as morals without God, so i wouldn't be going there. :)
Also, I believe everything happens for a purpose, (Romans 8:28) while we may not know the purpose yet, someday we will find out and be in awe of God's amazing plan for our lives
you still haven't read the webpage ;) I would read that before arguing that point further.
and yes I believe all people are descendants of Noah, why is that ridiculous?
Lol Andy! Im sure thats why Mr. Fowler doesn't participate.
Justintime- I do take this debate seriously.....its literally a choice between life and death! I agree with Oldgent.......choose wisely!
Out of all three of the Abrahamic religions, only one regards Jesus as anything but a teacher/prophet. Given Jehovah/Allah's lack of tolerance for those who worship false gods, I think Christians are probably more at risk of not "choosing wisely". Or, God completely changed direction after 14 billion years of being a vengeful God to being the God of love and forgiveness a mere 2000 years ago... does that make sense if you're truly concerned about your eternal soul?
It dose to me since Jesus gave us a new covenant from god predicted in .Jeremiah 31:31-34. The new covenant is by his,Grace/or love he shed his blood on the cross so that our sin can be forgiven, because we all come short of his glory. Luke 22:20,
Darwin was a Eugenist just like Hitler & Margaret Sanger - not my words- theirs!
Peace
“Of all the problems which will have to be faced in the future, in my opinion, the most difficult will be those concerning the treatment of the inferior races of mankind.”
― Leonard Darwin
[We should] apply a stern and rigid policy of sterilization and segregation to that grade of population whose progeny is tainted, or whose inheritance is such that objectionable traits may be transmitted to offspring.
-Margaret Sanger
RU Think 99% of the people on here should acquaint themselves with the term:
"The Day of the Lord"
You don't abort 1.2 Million kids a year of Gods creation and get away with it for long..
Bet you Joel Osteen ain't teaching that...lol
Peace
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Day_of_the_Lord
“I think God, in creating man, somewhat overestimated his ability.”
― Oscar Wilde
Ianimal I'm not going to pretend that I much about Islam or Judaism, but I think it is safe to trust in the God of the Bible because of his word. Many of the accounts, places, and even people can in The Bible can be confirmed by archaeology and geology.
JeffersonRepub I'm sure you've checked already, Ian, but Leonard was Charles' son.
Eugenics as described and demonstrated by Sanger and Hitler is one of the world's greatest evils.
You don't abort 1.2 Million kids a year of Gods creation.. You do in Caesars world but the choice is yours to live with. Joel Osteen is a motivational speaker like Norman Vincent Peal before him.
Never confuse what you feel with what you think. Faith is the real of what you feel, science is based on what you think. Faith goes wrong when justifications are all "factual", and science goes wrong when "it just feels right". The whole discussion here is trying to mix the two.
JR - Leonard Darwin isn't just Charles' son, he was the head of the British Eugenics Society and used his father's work as justification.
Matt101 - Everyone has morals whether based on faith or not.
GC I have read the bible. I'm a reformed catholic and eventually learned to think outside of the church. You can quote the bible all day long. It doesn't make it fact. Just like you can go ahead and quote my diary and believe I dated Brad Pitt. As best said in a few good books, "words are wind".
Satan is evil but God created him, and yet, can't defeat him?? Here is a fun little statistic from the bible...death count god= 2,821,364, devil=10 (Job's sons and daughters and was allowed by God as part of a bet).
This is something I'd love to listen to, in an academic discussion group, where everybody respectfully listens to each other and gets to say what they have to say ...
HL isn't the place for it. Everything turns into a nasty argument here.
P.S., our morals didn't come from God. They were pretty crappy back in the day and have evolved, like us, over time. We eventually softened up a bit.
Andy, you are so right on that, but maybe this time it won't...so far so good.
Maybe someone should set up a pool as to the hour/ date it hits the fan, through May.
Oh, nevermind....someone could choose an hour and date and then write something awful at that hour so they win...
But there is always hope that this time will be different and people will remain respectful of other's opinions. ; ). Debating is such an art!
Spring Fever "Everyone has morals"
I can only agree with this statement if evil can be considered a moral. Some people are just evil. They do whatever they can to serve themselves whether it hurts someone else or not- supreme selfishness. If that can be considered a moral, then I agree.
I guess you could attempt to take it back to the animal world's "survival of the fittest" mindset, that would sort of go along with the whole Darwin thing I guess, but even some animals don't stoop to that level of evil and selfishness.
"Satan is evil but God created him, and yet, can't defeat him?? Here is a fun little statistic from the bible...death count god= 2,821,364, devil=10 (Job's sons and daughters and was allowed by God as part of a bet)."
This statement is so inaccurate, I wouldn't know where to begin. So I won't.
Jazzykatt - I too have be "burnt" by churches, BUT as I looked back, I could see that I placed a certain amount of my faith and expectations on man. Man will always let you down no matter how much money they have. After all we were "Evolved" to be imperfect, but Given free will to make a choice. ;)
Without God, who makes the morals? And what obligation do we have to abide by those morals?
Jazzykatt, but if Brad pitt had a picture of you two hanging out together, that would be more believable! That's what the Bible does for us, I agree if we had no outside evidence, it would be ignorant to believe the Bible. But as I previously said, we do have lots of other evidences that show the Bible is 100% true.
"How do you explain this if the flood story is just a "myth"
First off, there are many floods in many places all the time so it's easy to see the story replicated.
In the case of Noah, the current theory says the Black Sea was once fresh water. Everybody, the world, lived right on the shores of this prosperous area. Come some extra water in the Mediterranean from a very rainy period, a rapid erosion of the walls separating the two bodies of water, and scientists think the wall of water that hit the area was 200 times the force of Niagara Falls hit the area wiping "the world as we know it" out forever and turning the lake from fresh to salt forcing anyone left to leave or starve. Remember, everyone lived literally on the beach. A flood like that wiping out the world as you know it would be epic. Having to move to another country would be traumatic on top of traumatic. Survivors would have to look for meaning for all the death and destruction first telling the story verbally and then, generations later, someone wrote it down from memory.
"God did not GIVE that child the disease. The Devil did."
Uh, didn't God create the Devil? Otherwise we have an issue here.
"Jesus did suffer on our part to take away our sins."
Suffer? Boy that's sugar coating it. But ask yourself this. Was Jesus the first zombie? And what is that Christ's blood and body communion stuff?
".....its literally a choice between life and death!"
Well, so much for free will :>)
"I'm a reformed catholic
Ah, Episcopal... :>)
All kidding aside, how can you not just look out the window and not believe there is a creator who must be massively awesome in every way to come up with all of this? The Bible is just a collection of stories written by a gazillion people edited by a gazillion others to try to explain all of this and things that happened to them and to provide guidance on how to live right and not to screw it up. Of course it's myth based on reality with moral messages from God. What do you expect? They were pretty primitive people at the pen's helm.
But isn't everything an example of God speaking? And if you don't follow the teaching of "pick your prophet," are there not ramifications for being immoral?
I, for one, am not into organized religion but I do believe in God and can see his wonders first hand in the sublime bloom of the Rose out to the complex living organism that is our planet. I find myself much more at peace following words from the bible and Jesus than if I stray from that path. Sure, not all the prescriptions, but a lot of them.
Personally I think God is talking very loudly to us today about how we are treating the garden gift we have received. Katrina, Sandy, Tsunami, our own Polar Vortex, bees gone, butterflies gone, I think there are lots of messages are being sent. And most, myself included, are not listening. Instead we seem hell bent on misusing our God given gifts of this planet in exchange for temporal earthy delights. We use more instead of less without even thinking about our choices. You think Noah had it rough, remember, Noah did not cause his problems, he just got lucky to live in that time and that place and was able to ride out the storm. Just keep going and see what your kids will endure for us not listening to God's messages.
Sure, you can say there's a scientific answer to all of this but I say when the butterflies disappear that someone is sending a message, not science, but a message that we are screwing it up ----- big time.
Mistergoogle,
1. How do you explain the evidences on this page?
https://answersingenesis.org/the-flood/global/worldwide-flood-evidence/
2. God created the angels, one of which was jealous of God's power and was banished and became Satan.
3. Sugar-coating what? Are you saying Jesus did not suffer? Because if that's what you're saying that is ridiculous. Jesus suffered the most gruesome crucifixion process the Romans had at that time.
Matt.
1. First why do I have to explain it? But if I must, I'll go with just the way I did before; floods occur all the time all over the place. Most of the Earth was under sea water at some time, much of the earth was under water at one time. However, the entire earth was not under water in Noah's time that anyone can prove. Heck, the writers of the Bible did not even know North and South America existed so how would they even know it was underwater or not. Your link does not reference any time factoids or the supposition that all the flood data noted happened at the same time or even same century. Are they really suggesting that the Grand Canyon was formed in Noah's time? Seems a might late.
Most scientist poo-poo creationist theories for understanding earth's history. For one thing, the time tables are always wrong. See Box 1 at minimum: http://www.academia.edu/7871644/Flood_Geology_and_the_Grand_Canyon_A_Critique But feel free to read the rest. I am sure it won't change your mind, but it should. There's plenty more.
This does not diminish the power of the Bible; it just puts it in relation to the authors' definition of the world as they knew it.
And I think they may still sell a book covering creationist theory of the origin of the grand canyon at the park. I understand it's a top seller.
Another example of Biblical timing issues would be the sea-change mind boggling thought that the early Hebrews had: there is only one God. I mean this is a HUGE idea considering no one had thought of it up until that point. However, when archeologists kept digging what they found out was that the concept of one God was not an overnight sensation and that many of the early Jews practiced multi-theism along side of those embracing mono-theism.
Yet another example is Joshua and the battle of Jericho. Yes, the walls did come tumbling down and the enemy cities across the land were vanquished. But when archeologists study the region, they determined the walls of all the enemy cities took hundreds of years to come down. Pretty tough for Joshua to pull that one off in his lifetime.
Point is, IMHO the Bible is based on facts, is based on truth, but from the eyes and ears of the authors, based on their world definition and with a little "smoothing" of the facts over time. Probably not for spin but because they wrote down what they had been told and retold for generations before pen was put to paper (or whatever they wrote with and on).
If the flood only occurred in Mesopotamia or the Black Sea, that was the world. The world was wiped out. It did rain for a long time. And somebody survived, perhaps Noah, and my bet is that he was either good to begin with or became very, very humble and good after that.
2. So we agree, God created the Devil.
3. Suffer seems a bit on the light side, thus my term sugar coating. Gruesome crucifixion sounds more like the image I get. I mean some even think he may have been questioning God for a moment in that moment. That's tough stuff.
From Merrian Webster Dictionary
Full Definition of MORAL
1 Of, or relating to principles of right and wrong in behavior : ethical
Expressing or teaching a conception of right behavior
Conforming to a standard of right behavior
Sanctioned by or operative on one's conscience or ethical judgment
2 Probable though not proved : Virtual
3 Perceptual or psychological rather than tangible or practical in nature of effect
I reject the fact that we are all brothers.I am not an Athiest . The band XTC expresses my views quite well. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hk41Gbjljfo
The Moody Blues' take on this issue, from 1970
How Is It We Are Here
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nh3EsEzVvws
Who cares!? Isn't that the beauty of living in America?
Go ahead, believe in God...or not. Believe in Jesus...or not. Be an atheist, or Jewish, or Christian, or Muslim...or not. Believe in Darwinism or spiritualism or eugenics...or not. But don't force your beliefs on me or anyone else, because even your best argument can't change anyone's mind.
We all have the right to believe in what we want to believe...or not.
honey badger 
Philliesman "Sometimes the Bible in the hand of one man is worse than a whisky bottle in the hand of another...There are just some kind of men who're so busy worrying about the next world they've never learned to live in this one, and you can look down the street and see the results."
Harper Lee, To Kill a Mockingbird.
[22:5] O people! if you are in doubt about the raising, then surely We created you from dust, then from a small seed, then from a clot, then from a lump of flesh, complete in make and incomplete, that We may make clear to you; and We cause what We please to stay in the wombs till an appointed time, then We bring you forth as babies, then that you may attain your maturity; and of you is he who is caused to die, and of you is he who is brought back to the worst part of life, so that after having knowledge he does not know anything; and you see the earth sterile land, but when We send down on it the water, it stirs and swells and brings forth of every kind a beautiful herbage.
[23:14] Then We made the seed a clot, then We made the clot a lump of flesh, then We made (in) the lump of flesh bones, then We clothed the bones with flesh, then We caused it to grow into another creation, so blessed be God, the best of the creators.
[46:15] And We have enjoined on man doing of good to his parents; with trouble did his mother bear him and with trouble did she bring him forth; and the bearing of him and the weaning of him was thirty months; until when he attains his maturity and reaches forty years, he says: My Lord! grant me that I may give thanks for Thy favor which Thou hast bestowed on me and on my parents, and that I may do good which pleases Thee and do good to me in respect of my offspring; surely I turn to Thee, and surely I am of those who submit.
Anyone know where this came from?
Hint: it was from the 7th century, years& centuries before the microscope was invented& scientists in the 1800's confirmed how babies are developed& born
Came from an illerate camel jockey who lived in the desert.
H-town Mama 
The Libs hang this Margaret Sanger out to be a Saint - founder of Planned Parenthood and all she cared about was killing black kids.
The Nazi's got their ideas for Concentration Camps from the British in Africa & Eugenics from the US Eugenics Movement of the early 1920's.
The frickin Post Office gave this piece of garbage a stamp & here she is talking to the Klan ...think it was actually in Jersey.
But whatever crack a book - they hide this information in them.
Disgusting what's going on in this country currently,,,imo
& actually all these Gun Control Laws where targeted for Black Freed Slaves after the Civil War. The white folk didn't want their ex-slaves firing back on them,,,lol
funny thing is we are all slaves now to the elites.
Peace out
The flood story is one that can be traced back to Sumer, over 4000 years ago, and is present in many cultures. Therefore, this myth of flood has existed long before someone twisted it into "god did it because he had a temper tantrum".
Which is more logical? That the descendants of two people played the world's longest game of telephone? Or that it was borrowed from one religion to another? We all know that elements of the Jesus myth were also borrowed from other religions and, as such, that allows us to recognize that there are already borrowed elements within the bible. So, common sense dictates that if one thing is borrowed, there may be more.
Thought and quote of the day: ( I know, wrong thread..., but right pew)...:
"Our Moral, Religious, and Political traditions are united in their respect for the dignity of human life". : Robert Casey
joyful I really like what honey badger had to say "Who cares!? Isn't that the beauty of living in America?
Go ahead, believe in God...or not. Believe in Jesus...or not. Be an atheist, or Jewish, or Christian, or Muslim...or not. Believe in Darwinism or spiritualism or eugenics...or not. But don't force your beliefs on me or anyone else, because even your best argument can't change anyone's mind.
We all have the right to believe in what we want to believe...or not "
Caged Animal We have a right to believe in whatever we want. But hopefully we are all interested in aligning our beliefs with what is true.
I doubt if any of us are right about everything!
My story
I grew up in a family that went to church, so there were believer’s around me in those years. It wasn’t till I reach 21 that God was tested. I completed 3 years of my apprenticeship. I had a car, found a wonderful girl and everything was going great. Then I had an accident working on my car. A piece of brass went through my eye. I went to the ER and was admitted. They planned to take my eye out. I was all ready to be drafted in 2 months. One doctor said, take him to NY. I spent a month their trying everything to kill an infection after they operated to take the brass out and nothing worked. Finally one Doctor suggested giving me Typhoid fever and it worked. So my eye was saved but blind.
That was a trying time. All negative things were going through my mind. Will I be able to work or drive a car? Will that girl stick with a half blind man? What kind of future will I have? I did a lot of praying asking God for help. Then the draft gave me 6 months to recover and I went into the service. Then I thought will that girl wait that long? So many questions.
The company did give me my job back after the service but a month later they went on strike. My girl finial said, ‘It’s now or never,” so we took the plunge. I slowly learned that God was taking care of my questions. I learned that God really does give you peace. I never got excited about events in life after learning more about him and his promise. Peace can be found in believing in him as promised. He is where I put my faith.
"I doubt if any of us are right about everything!"
True, but also I doubt if many of us understand that it is possible for more than one "right" answer depending on one's viewpoint and time frame. Stand at the edge of a calm lake on a beautiful day and you'll argue up and down that there is no danger of a storm coming. View the same lake from above and you'll see the clouds forming just out of sight.
IMO when we disagree we should do so with the caveat there is always more information than is currently available - the stuff we don't know. That's why theories are just that. Those who worship science over theology are often no better than anyone else and suffer from tunnel vision too. Religions tend to be rigid but science does too at times (consider the "theory of everything" that's the holy grail of science).
In the bigger picture, I can honestly say that I have no idea how or why we humans exist in the form we do. That's not to say I disagree with either evolution or with some higher power (Being or otherwise) - there's room for both. But the obvious question is if evolution is factual (which I agree it probably is within the time frames we've obseerved) what's the cause? Why, and for what purpose? Why does life want to persevere, to continue, and how can that drive be passed down through reproduction? When the answer is "just because" that should also raise red flags in the science community.
It seems to me there are many more questions than answers, and to close one's mind by being judgmental is far worse than any belief system, religious or scientific.
I believe both evolution and God can coexist. God may even be evolving; if God wants to which would make evolution, well, Godly.
I don't believe God is evolving, but Church's are as they get involved in social political issues.
"I believe both evolution and God can coexist. God may even be evolving; if God wants to which would make evolution, well, Godly."
+1. It's arguable God "evolved" from the Old Testament (punishment) to the New Testament (love).
"If Man evolved from Monkeys and Apes, why do we still have Monkeys and Apes ?"
If we immigrated from Europe why are there still Europeans?
seriously I have one question. God created Adam and Eve. They had two children, Cain and Able, right? Then they "knew their wives " and had kids. Who are these "wives"?
sallysimpson Genesis 5:4 : After Seth was born, Adam lived 800 years and had other sons and daughters. Back then it was permissible to marry relatives and people married siblings and cousins.
JIT,
It would appear that in your example there was in fact only one correct answer - there either was danger of a storm, or there wasn't. Both beliefs are not equally valid.
But I will grant you that it is very difficult to get at the absolute truth of things, or that there even is such a thing as absolute truth in many things.
They had another son, Seth, and they also had daughters who were alluded to but never named. So, after Abel was murdered and Cain was banished, Seth was obviously doing the nasty with his sisters. That probably explains why it's still such a popular activity in the Bible Belt (-;
Thanks ianimal...everytime I read the bible, I couldn't get past "genesis ". I didn't know about Seth, or that Adam lived 800 years (thanks Matt101).
Hard to believe in certain things around the stories. I believe there is definitely a deity(maybe several). Some call him God, Allah, Buddha. I call it Jehovah, although I am not a Jehovah Witness or any other religion, just spiritual and scientific. There is good and evil but not quite sure what's controlling everything (besides the government ..mostly evil) . I know there are billions of planets as the universe goes on forever. We cannot be the only "Goldie Locks" planet in space.... maybe just in our universe, but there's billions of universes. One thing for sure, if I said I was pregnant, with no sperm involved.... they would lock me away. Everyone has the right to believe what they want. I listen and respect all points of view, but I can only believe what seems logical to me. The logic behind the "deity" is just a weird feeling I have and that's Jehovah, as I don't know what else to call it. I know to some, the latter does not seem logical.
jd2, the thrust of my comment was about perspective. Speaking of which, what the people in the plane might not see is the change in the jet stream that will push the storm away from the beach or even dissipate it ;-)
I wish I was religious, as it seems like those who are can get through anything and just seem happier. It's something the brain has to be hardwired for which mine is not. Ok.... let the jokes begin.
Not only billions of planets, sallysimpson, there are hundreds of billions of stars in our galaxy, each with varying numbers of planets, and a hundred billion galaxies in the visible universe. There is also no reason to believe that our universe (the matter spewed from our "Big Bang") is unique. There may very well be hundreds of billions of universes in the multiverse.
Given all that, it's still relatively easy to believe in a God that created it all, but much more difficult to believe that He has a personal relationship with members of a single insignificant species on an insignificant planet in an insignificant solar system in an insignificant galaxy in an insignificant universe... and that there's an afterlife awaiting said insignificant species. But if that belief gives people comfort, then I suppose it's a good thing. But when people use the belief and The Book to belittle and discriminate against those who are different from them, that's when I feel that the belief becomes detrimental to society.
Ianimal..I agree. We are just a tiny speck in the big scheme of things. "Horton Hears a Who " kind of explains things in a certain way. The original cartoon version is kind of like a battle of science versus religion.
"Boil that dust speck, boil that dust speck!"
Jesus said “I go now to prepare a place for you.” John14-2 I believe that place is some where out in that big universe you are all aware of.
Gadfly Thats funny, I started this thread with an article about science and I don't think I belittled anyone. I just point out what God means to me. After all I know I am a sinner and come up short of his expectations. Remember I live with his Peace, not looking for a argument. As the saying goes, Vengeance is mine, saith the Lord and I take it literally.
There is a Hymn we sing called ,Let there be Peace on earth and let it begin with me.
Old Gent, the two ideas you put forth in your post are guaranteed to start an argument. The first one is an old bogus Hardline Christian perversion of the research done on this subject. The article you link to is also bogus science and the real science is quoted below:
The modern European gene pool is likely a bit confused now, with international travel spreading people far and wide. However, in the case of native Europeans whose family never left the continent, it has been found that they likely boast a cocktail of genetic information from three distinct "tribes" of ancestors.
So just remember your faith is yours, and it may be the true faith for you but not for everyone. I especially dislike when people who have that idea of the only true faith try to legislate their beliefs for all.
MK "However, in the case of native Europeans whose family never left the continent, it has been found that they likely boast a cocktail of genetic information from three distinct "tribes" of ancestors."
that's not science, that's an opinion, who knows if a family has ever left the continent or not? it's a supposition that cannot be supported by facts, that's not how science works.
btw, what is meant by the term tribe? where is it defined for inclusion in this statement? and what does it mean in the context of this discussion?
I really posted the first statement of this thread as a halfheartedly JOKE, not a fact. I never expected it to go this far.The link says, "COULD - HAVE"
If Man evolved from Monkeys and Apes, why do we still have Monkeys and Apes ?
http://www.iflscience.com/plants-and-animals/handful-bronze-age-men-could-have-fathered-two-thirds-europeans
I'm ok with whatever you want to believe but please don't be so ignorant as to say the earth is only 6,000 years old and we frolicked in the fields with dinosaurs.
I'm perfectly fine with you believing that we frolicked in the tar pits with the dinosaurs 6,000 years ago. That hurts no one.
My comments about belittling and discrimination had nothing to do with you Old Gent (and I apologize if that's how it came off). If you want to criticize scientific theory, I have no problem with that and would never get on my high horse and accuse you of "attacking science". Your beliefs are your own and you're welcome to them, but I'll point out where I think your understanding is incorrect.
What prompted my comment was this Duggar scumbag. Pretending to be all high and mighty and the voice of Christianity... head of an organization that primarily exists to belittle and discriminate against homosexuals, not only opposing gay marriage, but saying that children aren't safe around them. Then it comes out that not only did he molest 5 girls while in high school, but his father knew about it for a year before he reported it and the police officer he finally reported it to not only swept it under the rug, but was also found guilty of kiddie porn later on. So, yeah, people and "communities" like that, where the VICTIMS are pressured into "forgiveness" as their Christian responsibility so as not to make trouble for the men in their patriarchal dystopias... that really bugs me, especially when they have the gall to rail against homosexuality as being immoral.
Matthew 7:15 - Beware of false prophets, which come to you in sheep's clothing, but inwardly they are ravening wolves.
I am not as concerned with the morels of Caesars world, as I am with the teachings and actions of the of the Church. The Bible has many verses of false profit warnings.
Society is always challenging Christens for there views on social matters when they are the ones MAKING the laws on civil morels, irregardless what the Bible says. We Christians all come short of gods glory, but we are made up of people born in Caesars world that are seeking the truth of life. Our Faith is always being challenged and some fall astray.I go to church to be renewed in my faith and spend the rest of the week laboring in Caesars world, and SURVIVING.
I find it interesting the same people who would seem to damn an entire religion/faith (Christianity) on the actions of a few, get so worked up/offended when others do the same with other religions (Islam)....
Pot meet kettle?
There you go again JR, trying to play the victim. Nobody here has condemned the entire Christian faith, on the actions of a few or otherwise.
"where the VICTIMS are pressured into "forgiveness" as their Christian responsibility so as not to make trouble for the men in their patriarchal dystopias... that really bugs me, especially when they have the gall to rail against homosexuality as being immoral."
we are totally on the same page here, and this is why i don't belong to a church. As oldgent correctly points out, we as individuals, each and every one of us have our own cross to bear in this world, we all fall short of perfection . . . . .
imo, this dugger guy should be hung up in the village square by his gonads if you ask me. if we render to ceaser what is ceaser's, then this duggar should face the full extent of the law and be judged accordingly and do time in prision if found guilty. period.
the fact that this all comes to light is another example of how (i believe) our creator cleans his own house, as it says in the gospel of Matthew, the tree that doesnt bear fruit will be plucked out. (old gent pls help me with the specific verse reference and wording? thx)
in this discussion, i find it to be of interest that the initial account of how the creation came into being dovetails nicely with both the theory of evolution and the big bang theory.
jazzykat - i would never try and tell you the world is 6000 years old, i think christians who do that are mistaken, and i try and reason with them about it when and where i can. it is quite clear that in the way we measure years right now, the planet is billions of years in age. i think many Christians are not interpreting the account correctly, and i have discussed this before in the other threads that the first 20 verses in Genesis are relayed in a well known poetic form that was used in the old arimic/hebrew languages . i mean look at it closely, there is a rhythm and parameter used stylistically like in a song lyric, the verses flow with a regular beat, and a day in that context is a measure of time that separates significant events, it was never meant to mean a strict 24 hours. btw, and i ask this of believers and non-believers alike, how long was a 'day' when there was no planet formed yet? and how long is a day for the creator who made it all happen? the story is told from the perspective of the creator, how long was his/her's day? a day for the creator could be as long a thousand years (or more) as it says elsewhere in the good book.
i remember reading a few years back about an archaeology expedition that found man sized hominid foot prints alongside some dinosaur remains. so it is speculation that man-kind or his predecessors never walked with the dinosaurs. it's possible that it could have happened millions of years ago, or possibly more recently, who knows for sure?
" but much more difficult to believe that He has a personal relationship with members of a single insignificant species on an insignificant planet in an insignificant solar system in an insignificant galaxy in an insignificant universe"
Uh, point of order.....It's God we're talking about. Perhaps God invented Karma as a way of keeping in touch on a personal level :>)
Afterlife. Depends on the definition. I mean if energy can not be created or destroyed....
Man sized hominid along side the dinosaurs = FOX reporting :>)
This has actually turned into a pretty funny conversation with both sides covering their ears and barking at the other. I have a few questions:
For the believers:
1.) Do you follow the same religion your parents followed?
2.) If there was no reward (i.e. Heaven) or consequence (i.e. Hell) for your actions, what purpose would your religion serve in your life?
For the unbelievers:
1.) When did you make the choice to reject your previous belief system? Why?
2.) Since you are not actually performing theoretical science on a daily basis, and probably aren't reading the actual reports but reading 3rd or 4th generation interpretations of the results of any particular test, how can you say that science has credence over religion?
Nobody has ever accused me of being a religious "fanatic" (I don't push beliefs on other people, I'm not "evangelistic" in that way)... my thoughts about "hell' are that it is something we create for ourselves by our actions here on this earth.
In brief, our "hell" or "heaven" is the kind of life we create for ourselves here and now.
I consider John Lennon to be one of the great spiritual teachers during my lifetime.
What I get from "religion" is emotional strength to keep carrying on when discouraging events go on around me, and the desire to do good to other people, to treat them the way I wish to be treated. Not from fear of punishment, because God has forgiven me many times for not doing things He asked me to do, but simply because God needs me here to do good deeds in whatever way I'm able.
No need to go on, if you didn't get what I'm saying in those two paragraphs, you wouldn't get it in a million years. I'm too old to be spending the rest of my life involved in arguments, but if I can say or do something to inspire someone to "turn the corner" in his or her life, there is a time and place to speak up.
1.) When did you make the choice to reject your previous belief system? Why?
I grew up Catholic and started to question my faith in my early thirties. I started reading books, other than the bible, and opening my mind to other possibilities. When I really thought about it, nothing made sense anymore. The answer that "god works in mysterious ways" was just like my parents saying "because I told you so". I was tired of hearing "I don't know" replaced with god. The truth is nobody knows but with all that I have studied, I'm leaning toward no creator.
Also, if the creator that we read about in the bible does exist, he's not a very nice guy to being with. Anyone that asked me to kill my own son to prove my faith and love is a narcissistic, cruel and twisted individual who derives pleasure from others' suffering. The bible is full of murder, rape and cruelty.
2.) Since you are not actually performing theoretical science on a daily basis, and probably aren't reading the actual reports but reading 3rd or 4th generation interpretations of the results of any particular test, how can you say that science has credence over religion?
I'm not performing it but learning from others who have the intelligence to delve into life's mysteries. Science has more credence because theories are based on evidence that lead us to more accurate conclusions. Any time a religious person tries to substantiate the existence of their god, they only end up quoting the bible. That isn't proof of anything. Yes, certain people and events may be real but it is also a book of stories. Why should I believe a superstitious being from thousands of years ago over a rational thinking scientist of today? We are smarter than our ancestors.
I answered the first question in a previous post. With the second question I may have worshiped other golden idols, the sun, gathering possession etc. Man has always has had a spiritual desire to worship some thing in a universe so unimaginable. I would just be spending my time searching for the meaning of life, such as science does.
My God claims to have created everything. He leaded his people through the Prophets into battles, and through hardship, to the promised land. Then he came with a new promise, in the flesh, with a new promise of life everlasting for EVERYONE. That I believe in through Faith in his promise for believers only.
"You gotta believe"
-- Tug McGraw
Yeah, I know, he was talking about baseball ... the guy knew how to have fun, though, give him credit for that.
When I worked a Stevens, their was a Professor of Physic's that started all new classes with the following statment. Whats the meaning of life? Shoveling s;;t. , He always got a big laugh.
Maybe the above was a rhetorical question? Anyway, here goes:
1) When did you make the choice to reject your previous belief system? Why?
In my early twenties, while reading some sort of "history of the world"-type book, I had a sudden epiphany that all the religion I had been taught and believed could not possibly be true; did not make sense. Kind of frightening at first, liberating soon enough.
2) Since you are not actually performing theoretical science on a daily basis, and probably aren't reading the actual reports but reading 3rd or 4th generation interpretations of the results of any particular test, how can you say that science has credence over religion?
I haven't really been saying that per se, I guess I attribute my "conversion" more to "logic" than science. But since asked, yes, science has been trying for millenia to explain the world and universe we live in, and has made a lot of progress; religion has claimed it already has the explanations based on some supernaturals aspects for which there is zero evidence.
I can just see Old Gent sauntering down Main Street whistling and singing:
"I've got sunshine on a cloudy day.
When it's cold outside I've got the month of May.
I guess you'd say
What can make me feel this way?
My God (my God, my Godl)
Talkin' 'bout my God"
it is interesting that the creation story dovetails nicely with both the theory of evolution and the big bang theory
other cultures from around the world also have legends that support the creation story and current scientific theories.
they also have versions of the flood story, about how we were warned it was coming and that preparations had to be made and only a few chosen ones survived because of the preparations. (like building a craft/boat that could withstand raging seas)
is is estimated that the last ice age ended somewhere between 9,000 and 12,000 bc, and that when the ice started to melt there was a world wide conflagration that disrupted the whole planet
that would explain why so many cultures have a story with so many similar elements, there is some truth hiding in the mytholgy that needs to recognized.
"Words" started the whole thing...the world was spoken into existance by an Almighty Being, who while on earth went by the name of Jesus. He also goes by the name of "God" while in a real place, called Heaven...End of lesson.
Btownguy, I forgot to state my source. John 1: 1-5 and others. As you may already know from my past posts, to me, none of this is lies. It is all truth. But you are free to use your own sources and believe what you want. Andy, above, asked a simple, direct question and I answered it as simply as possible...
i'm on board with spring fever as well. she has the theology correct for christians. No lies at all btownguy, please explain what is a lie in springfever's post?
maybe this sheds some light on what at first read seems like a nonsensical assertion:
By starting out his gospel stating, “In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God,” John is introducing Jesus with a word or a term that both his Jewish and Gentile readers would have been familiar with. The Greek word translated “Word” in this passage is Logos, and it was common in both Greek philosophy and Jewish thought of that day. For example, in the Old Testament the “word” of God is often personified as an instrument for the execution of God’s will (Psalm 33:6; 107:20; 119:89; 147:15-18). So, for his Jewish readers, by introducing Jesus as the “Word,” John is in a sense pointing them back to the Old Testament where the Logos or “Word” of God is associated with the personification of God’s revelation. And in Greek philosophy, the term Logos was used to describe the intermediate agency by which God created material things and communicated with them. In the Greek worldview, the Logos was thought of as a bridge between the transcendent God and the material universe. Therefore, for his Greek readers the use of the term Logos would have likely brought forth the idea of a mediating principle between God and the world.
So, essentially, what John is doing by introducing Jesus as the Logos is drawing upon a familiar word and concept that both Jews and Gentiles of his day would have been familiar with and using that as the starting point from which He introduces them to Jesus Christ. But John goes beyond the familiar concept of Logos that his Jewish and Gentile readers would have had and presents Jesus Christ not as a mere mediating principle like the Greeks perceived, but as a personal being, fully divine, yet fully human.
http://www.gotquestions.org/Jesus-Word-God.html#ixzz3bKwLPNT2
Welcome, Hot corner...you might want to toughen up your skin to stay on here, especially with this topic. Actually, make that most topics! ; )
Just as randomly some folks in the desert gathered, the future will create new ethnic groups. Through intermarriage the world will be mostly one in the not too distant future...
iJay My random thoughts of God…(if there is one)
Science has proven that the earth is over 4 billion (with a B) years old. The bible says Adam, (supposedly the first man) was created about 8 thousand years ago. What was God doing all that time in between?
There is not one person in the entire world who can offer concrete, indisputable proof that there is a God.
How can anyone believe that Jesus walked on water, parted the Red sea, brought dead men back to life? Fed 5000 people with 3 fishes and 5 loaves, and after everyone had eaten there was more left over than when they started.
There are thousands of children who die of starvation every day. Why does God not feed them?
To be continued…
Cliff R God created a perfect world but once the bite was taken out of the forbidden fruit the party was over.
You seam to be aware of some of the stories and do not believe them. With out faith in our Lord you may never understand. While he was here on earth he showed us how to live knowing we could never match his life. He spoke to the people in parables that were easy to understand. He finally gave up his life in a gruesome way, shedding his blood so his believers could be forgiven. I pray that some day you may find faith in that love that is offered to you.
Exists in reality just like this Star Trek episode...
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5Bhueml6MqI
No sense in discussing science with a Republican. Lol. Props to those of you who are trying! ;)
DeaconBlus It's worse then that, I am a libertarian. You are free to believe what you wish to.
So what did we learn in Genesis Chapter 4? We learned that Adam and Even had two sons, Cain and Abel. Cain killed Abel over God’s disapproval of an offering. God punishes Cain, if you can call building a city a punishment. Cain married his sister who magically appeared. And God hates women. Get used to the hating women thing in the Bible for it never goes away.
Now the man had relations with his wife Eve, and she conceived and gave birth to Cain, and she said, "I have gotten a manchild with the help of the LORD." Again, she gave birth to his brother Abel. And Abel was a keeper of flocks, but Cain was a tiller of the ground. - Genesis 4:1-2
and when this Adam and Eve stuff was going on and they had there sons there was another group of beings on the planet at the same time
And, - the FINAL word on the matter, as far as I'm concerned:
Basically, "I'm ok, you're ok".... so stop trying to remove the symbolic cross from the World Trade Center site (just one example) and Christians stop trying to stop homosexuals from legally co-habitating and sharing equal rights with everyone else (just one example).
LOL, I thought the "why are there still monkeys and apes" was the pinnacle of scientific ignorance, but you've managed to top it somehow, JR... Kudos.
I don't know what you're babbling on about, Ian. It seems to me my point is, ACCEPTANCE ... apparently a foreign concept to you? No surprise there. If you're not right all the time, you wouldn't know what to do with yourself.
You're one of those people who only finds confidence in being absolutely right, always. Must be a miserable, blind existence, being so close-minded.
They say there are two things you don't talk about in a bar,
politics and religion.
I agree with that wholeheartedly, JR.
My issue was with: "In the beginning, there was nothing. Which exploded." That is completely contrary to Big Bang Theory. That's it, I wasn't saying anything about the Clooney quote.
I'm still working on JR's level of acceptance. If someone is closed minded, shouldn't you just accept it rather than talking about a miserable, blind existence? Speaking as, and speaking to one of the blind miserable confident ones, I would think you would be more accepting. I know I have accepted Iman and I have found peace :>)
And as far as all you scienweenitologists pooh poohing God and the Bible, remember, God created free will and evolution. Perhaps your issue with the Biblical word of God not jibing exactly word for word with your science is just part of evolution. You know, God's plan.
Chances are tomorrow's evolved children will look to your science and wonder how people could listen to such hogwash.
So if something didn't come from nothing, it must have come from....something. So where did that something come from? .....more ....something? The argument of "always was".... hmm.... starting to sound suspiciously like a BELIEF, a FAITH in a BELIEF.......
Big Bang Theory - The Premise
The Big Bang theory is an effort to explain what happened at the very beginning of our universe. Discoveries in astronomy and physics have shown beyond a reasonable doubt that our universe did in fact have a beginning. Prior to that moment there was nothing; during and after that moment there was something: our universe. The big bang theory is an effort to explain what happened during and after that moment.
Wow, JR, that post really takes the cake. As you know, but most here don't, the information you posted above under the title "Big Bang Theory - The Premise" is a cut and paste job. What's really outrageous is that the quote is taken from a NOVEL called "Evil Deceptions" which was written by a Sunday School teacher and fireman named Bruce S. Poteat. The description on Amazon reads, "Evil Deception takes you into the depths of Satan’s schemes throughout history, specifically his lies and deceptions that will usher in the end times." It's fiction!
This is where you get your information on scientific theories? It's no wonder that you don't believe in science.
...about as much sense as the universe was randomly created from nothing.... or that something "always" existed.... EVERYTHING has a beginning, somewhere. To believe the existence of the universe is an "infinity" with no beginning (and no end) is not only silly, but you would have to invoke laws of physics not yet discovered to prove it's validity.
I never said it WASN'T a cut and paste. And ?
The big bang theory, while certainly ALMOST provable, still does not explain THE beginning, only the beginning as WE know it..... in other words, it's a dead end. Explaining where time and space come from using the BBT is no more valid than any other theory.
In the beginning, EVERYTHING that we see as the visible universe was compressed into an infinitesimally small volume. Not nothing, everything. That's the Big Bang Theory. Do you see how the meme you posted was in contradiction to this theory?
Next you'll be telling me man-made global warming is real and "proven." Go sell crazy (or maybe naive?) somewhere else, I ain't buyin'.
Aaaaaaand, of course, even if the BBT were exactly how it happened, it still doesn't explain the "grand" how..... intelligent design could certainly be argued as well as anything else.
That's my point: NO ONE KNOWS. Everyone (or some of everyone at least) only THINK they KNOW.....
Ian,
So...... where did "everything" come from?
It's not contradictory; you're simply not going back far enough in the timeline.... again- BBT only (supposedly) tells of the beginning as WE know it.... not THE beginning.
You ask a good question, IJay. The answer is lengthy. To track the development of
the answer, one would need to go back to Genesis. I don't have my Bible with me at the moment so I can't list the chapter and verse, but the very start of your answer is there and it ends in Revelation. It has to do with Love that is beyond what we experience here on earth. Jesus' death and resurrection was alluded to in Geness and His concluding return to earth is in Revelation. A Bible with a study guide at the bottom of each page would go into more depth to answer your question. The reason I took time to answer is because it sounded like an honest question. If I am wrong in that assumption, I suspect I will find out shortly and won't bore you with anymore unwanted further explanations.
Have a good evening...
I have always wondered - why is it that they re-write science books every few years because they learned they were wrong, but the Bible - accurately interpreted in context - remains the same after thousands of years?
and one more quote "to sleep on".....
"I spent a long time trying to come to grips with my doubts, when suddenly I realized I had better come to grips with what I believe. I have since moved from the agony of questions that I cannot answer to the reality of answers that I cannot escape, and it's a wonderful relief.". Tom Skinner
Jesus never died on the cross
It just did not happen
Makes for great drama doesn't it?
And for the record I went 9 years catholic elementary & middle school
4 years in a convent for high school
15 years religious sabbatical
Lol, JR... You accuse ME of needing to be right all the time? All I did was point out how you indisputably posted a meme that incorrectly states what BBT states... and rather than admit it, you want to know what happened BEFORE the Big Bang as a means of deflecting from that rather simple truth... the truth of what it says, not whether it's correct or not.
Look to father sun and mother earth for answers are with in your grasp look to nature for the guidance , as with the devine and evreloution are one one religion takes the place of another as time passes on all will change you just have to watch for it be well all be open minded
And to the first posting if we did not have monkeys there would not be that rock group and if no apes how would we have king kong and planet of the apes
Can anyone out there explain to me why people who have children, love them unconditionally? Even though they disappoint us now and then we still love them....why? How did I, a insignificant spect of solar dust, get this emotion?
This is an age old battle of ideas and concepts which will solve nothing but only stir anger and hate.
To the believer's out there stand firm but I caution you on where you " cast your pearls".
In the news today. So facinating, this puzzle!
http://www.msn.com/en-us/news/other/lucy-may-not-be-our-mum-say-scientists/ar-BBkjzeb
Ian,
As I said... there's no contradiction... you just have to go back farther in the timeline than you WANT to.... the whole BBT is based on expansion and contraction, possibly occurring for much longer than before what WE call the big bang ever happened. The bottom line is, you still have all this "stuff".... that came into existence...how?
The only possible answers are "something came from nothing" (which contradicts physics as we understand them) or that "everything" "always was".... both of which make about as much sense (or lack of) as anything else.
I've said it twice already, one more time with feeling..... NO ONE KNOWS. Even if the BBT were proven to be true, (funny how so many of these theories can't be 100% proven true, only close....), that still begs the question: when/where/how did "everything" BEGIN?
Here's some basic reading, for those interested, on the law of conservation of energy/the first rule of thermodynamics.....
http://www.scientificamerican.com/article/energy-can-neither-be-created-nor-destroyed/
Once again, it gets us no closer to knowing "how it all began".
On this entire subject, I don't see religion and science at odds... I think they can co-exist, quite happily. I don't think the bible negates science or science negates the bible. Some people take the bible verbatim, but I personally think that's probably not correct, simply based on the amount of human corruption on the various faiths over the years.... it's a shame we don't have Jesus himself here now, we could ask him... because man cannot be trusted to keep an accurate recorded history... I have seen that with my own eyes with events of the 20th century and how they are taught in various countries around the world.... if they can't even keep 20th century history accurate, how can something 2000 years ago be kept accurate? Man cannot be trusted to be impartial. I have no doubt the original bible was guided by God, but I have no idea how much of that work remains in today's bible.
Don't want to get too far off here..... I don't see this as an either/or situation.
But, I'll just leave this here for Ian anyway ;)
Point taken Jeff Rep, its useless babble. As Believers our task is to spread the Gospel to the " people with ears, let them hear" and if they cannot hear let them view our actions. We cannot change hearts or minds, nor do we need to defend the Lord. I pray for all who choose to view this forum and hope their questions be answered.
Peace
agree with JR and hot corner,
those who have ears, let them hear
the current scientific theories about the universe and evolution do not contradict the bible, they actually support the creation account in genesis.
I'm not saying that science rules out Gods existence, but to say that current theories support the creation account in Genesis is a big stretch, and to say they "dove tail" as you did earlier, is absurd.
"I have no doubt the original bible was guided by God, but I have no idea how much of that work remains in today's bible."
The Bible is the word of God as written by man. As such, it is an interpretation of the times. Even the Bible has politics about what is in and what was left out, decisions made by men.
Things were kind of messed up about then, Rome had "evolved" but was certainly taking the entire world down the wrong path. God sent his only son and whether you believe all the miracles or not, something miraculous happened. God warned us about the future and the consequences of another interception.
All in all, we've done pretty good since then. Even when great evils have resurfaced, we have beaten them back on our own accord. So far so good since the arrival of the prophet.
Now we have another world-wide scourge of our own making threatening destruction of the entire garden God created. Back to Global Warming........
not at all, go back and re-read whats there, the steps line up with current scientific theories
the two theories explain the mechanism that was used to roll out the creation.
the beginning of genesis lists out the steps one by one that fit into both the big bang theory, and the theory of evolution.
btw, where is the 'missing link' ?
i fully believe in science and the scientific method, (and math and engineering) but it has limits to what it has so far produced.
The Lord God took the man and placed him in the orchard in Eden to care for it and to maintain it. Gen 2:15 (NET)Then the Lord God commanded the man, "You may freely eat fruit from every tree of the orchard, but you must not eat from the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, for when you eat from it you will surely die." But Adam did not die…Did God lie?
The Lord God made garments from skin for Adam and his wife, and clothed them.
Gen 3:21 (NET) Where did God get the skins? Did He kill an animal?
My take on that story is, that up to that point no one died. After that indecent man killed for food and killed each other. Death was real and the party was over.
@iJay...no, it doesn't make sense to the human mind that God, the Creator would willingly die for His creation--those who, just like on this forum will mock & ridicule His very existence.
"But a natural man does not accept the things of the Spirit of God, for they are foolishness to him; and he cannot understand them, because they are spiritually appraised." 1 Cor. 2:14
"But as many as received Him, to them He gave the right to become children of God, even to those who believe in His name, who were born, not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh nor of the will of man, but of God." John 1:12,13 (this is what it means to be "born again")
"But God demonstrates His own love toward us, in that while we were yet sinners, Christ died for us." Romans 5:8
"For I delivered to you as of first importance what I also received, that Christ died for our sins according to the Scriptures, and that He was buried, and that He was raised on the third day according to the Scriptures." 1Corinthians 15:3-4
Jesus said to her, “I am the resurrection and the life; he who believes in Me will live even if he dies, and everyone who lives and believes in Me will never die. Do you believe this?” John 11:25,26
"The one who believes in the Son of God has the testimony in himself; the one who does not believe God has made Him a liar, because he has not believed in the testimony that God has given concerning His Son. And the testimony is this, that God has given us eternal life, and this life is in His Son. He who has the Son has the life; he who does not have the Son of God does not have the life." 1John 5:10-12
My story: No one ever had to convince me that I was a sinner. But I always thought as long as my "good" deeds outweighed my bad...I should be ok...hopefully. Never sure though. No Bible knowledge growing up...heard God/Jesus's names as curses. Yet still in my mind, knew that there was a Creator God...He just seemed so far away and un-knowable. Attending catholic church as an adult only made Him seem further away. Until one day someone took the time to show me from God's Word that it was my sin that separated me from God. And that the whole purpose for Jesus coming to this earth was to reconcile us to God. To die on the cross the death that MY sin deserved.
"He made Him who knew no sin to be sin on our behalf, so that we might become the righteousness of God in Him." 2Corinthians 5:21
At that moment, I put my faith in the finished work of Christ on the cross and my sin (all...past, present, future) was forgiven and I (finally!) had peace w/God and could KNOW Him. How do I know my sin is forgiven and Heaven is an assurance, rather than a "hope-so?": The Bible tells me: "These things I have written to you who believe in the name of the Son of God, so that you may know that you have eternal life." 1John 513
God calls us to faith in His Son...not a church or organization. It's a relationship to the person of Jesus Christ. I do not need a priest to make intercession for me or forgive my sins. When Jesus died on the cross, He exclaimed, "It is finished." In the original Greek language this literally means "paid-in-full." As in our sin debt to God. But until you by faith receive that free gift...it's not yours and your sin debt before God still stands.
Eternity is a long time to be wrong...choose wisely.
Davis I always liked the part in Christianity where you can sin at will, find God, apologize and all will be forgiven. Much better than being Hindu where you can sin at will and then you come back as a roach.
The Big Bang may prove to not be true, it makes sense from the Inflation theory.
But, the majority of our Universe's mass is from dark matter (to the best of our current knowledge) and we have no little understanding about it.
Quarks are so small and fragile they are destroyed upon our inspection of them and they can exist at more than one location at the same time. Computer scientists want to harness the power of Quantum Mechanics to run extremely complex and long calculations in the past and return in the present with the answer -- as if no time had passed from requesting the calculation and the response. How does this matter, for one extremely complex computer models for the weather could be calculated in essentially zero time. Models that could take hours/days/years could be run instantaneously.
There are a lot of mysteries out there and to just stop searching and accept the "ideas" of 2000+ years ago makes as much sense as believing Greek mythology as being fact.
Thank you for your story Davis.
I read all these theorist and intellectuals looking for the truth, when the answers are all in one book. Adam was warned, "you must not eat from the tree of the knowledge "
"There are a lot of mysteries out there and to just stop searching..."
I agree with those quoted words. I think Science is fascinating and look at each " new discovery " as just one more step closer to the final reality of Who is really behind it all; and the revelation of where Science and pride-laden human understanding, grossly underestimated an all knowing Supreme Being. Who lies on the other side of that vast unknown is going to shock many...
"to just stop searching and accept the "ideas" of 2000+ years ago makes as much sense as believing Greek mythology as being fact
totally agree with you on that, and all the born again Christians that i know also agree with you. why would you think Christians have stopped searching for knowledge? that's another modern day myth propagated by the godless left. and it's just not true, i know you are much smarter than that iJay. (footnote: not all of the left is godless, but some are and that's who i am referring to with this comment)
btw; if you look closely at the greek myths you will find lots of nuggets of truth hidden in there,
As a card-carrying member of the "godless left" I fail to recall any instances of our heathen, despicable and treasonous members propagating that myth. We're far too busy trying to undermine the Constitution.
Adam didn't die?? Where does he live, how can we get in touch with him? Wow, he must be pretty old by now, could it be possible he remembers what was going on back then. Maybe he's on FB. He's probable hold up in some old hippie compound.
auntiel "I have always wondered - why is it that they re-write science books every few years because they learned they were wrong, but the Bible - accurately interpreted in context - remains the same after thousands of years?"
This statement is so off the wall. We are evolving everyday and getting smarter. Our knowledge base keeps expanding as we study and research the unknown. Science never claimed to be 100% accurate. Scientists are not scared to say I don't know but I'm going to keep searching to find the truth. The bible, in your belief system, doesn't change because you all take it on blind faith. Where does logic come in when you just have to believe?
By the way, the bible has been translated numerous times, so no, it does not remain the same. You would also think that god, the creator, would have been a little smarter with is design. I guess he was too busy to tell us the world was round in his great book of mysteries.
"Where does logic come in when you just have to believe?"
logic is a philosophical concept, logos and logic come from the same root word in greek, logos is described above in a prior post.
some would say that logic gives them a basis for their belief, others would differ, but at the end of the day it is still a leap of faith, i recommend you take the leap, it's a good thing.
yf - you don't strike me as godless at all, don't miss the intent/meaning, i put a footnote and everything
"I have always wondered - why is it that they re-write science books every few years because they learned they were wrong, but the Bible - accurately interpreted in context - remains the same after thousands of years?"
Yeah, and English is the same too. "Where for art thou?"
Evolution, it's a wonderful thing.
Logic has its value but it needs axioms which don't really exist. The "leap of faith" may be in the basic premises that are evident.
For example, we can assume that the Sun will rise tomorrow -- it is evident; not forever but for the remainder of our lifetimes this is evident. Of course something from somewhere else could make this not happen but it is extremely unlikely.
So, for any discussion based upon logic we have to agree upon basic truths at this moment and continue. Without making these assumptions logic would not work as every logical statement when drilled-down requires axioms.
Is this leaning towards giving up on logic and reverting to religious faith? No, there were religions long before our current flavors-of-the-day. The earliest ones were the most "logical" as there were based upon nature -- Sun God, etc. Later, man became inventive and creating religions based upon his assumptions and desires. For example, the desire to have an eternal life is one that almost every person can agree with.
The bottom line is to have an open mind. As a person of mostly science I do not believe in any formal religion but I do follow Eastern mysticism. This is not a religion or faith, but rather someone else showing you a way and you decide for yourself where it leads.
ianimal made a good point in that if there is a god that created all that we know it is doubtful that he would be intimate with all of us. However, what if our Universe is another being or part of another being. Intimacy can come in many forms. Can we be intimate with microorganisms in our gut (probably not) but they are quite important to our health. Yes, we all may be an extremely small part of a greater whole just like each of us is made up of many different "beings". The Gaya theory states that everything on our planet Earth is one living system. Whether or not you believe this, from afar it would make sense; The planet earth may well just be an electron from the point of view of something much larger -- something that exists on time frames beyond our ability to communicate with...
Space: the final frontier. These are the voyages of the starship Enterprise. Its five-year mission: to explore strange new worlds, to seek out new life and new civilizations, to boldly go where no man has gone before.
We have created computers that are capable of doing things we never could have imagined just 50 years ago ... and God gave us the ability to create those things.
Who am I to underestimate God's capabilities ... who can say He's not capable of staying on top of everything that's going on? We're assigning human limitations to the supreme being when we do that.
In sports, when you get better through practice and experience, "the game slows down," you can see and think through so many more things that are happening.
Who is to say, that God isn't capable of seeing things that we can't? His powers are beyond human understanding.
Nobody is limiting any theory. My only issue is that the religious ONLY use theories to reinforce their religion of choice. Religions bring peace to some and hope for a life after this physical one. It has also caused the deaths of millions. I don't know of anyone being killed over a scientific theory that conflicted with another (sure there may be a case or two)...
"Religions bring peace to some and hope for a life after this physical one. It has also caused the deaths of millions. I don't know of anyone being killed over a scientific theory that conflicted with another"
My favorite line in the thread so far!!!
Darwin I liked the line in Major League, "aaah, Jesus (Spanish pronunciation) I like him very much, but he no help with curveball."
To which Eddie Harris says, "you saying Jesus Christ couldn't hit a curveball?"
To which Jake Taylor says, "all right, all right, we don't want any holy wars going on around here."
Gotta keep it light, everybody believes whatever they believe, for their own personal reasons. As long as they ain't hurting anybody ...
I recall a real life story in which Frank Robinson, when he was a manager, really got steamed at some guy who made a major boo boo and blew a game, and then said a win that day "wasn't God's will."
That was NOT the right thing to say to a competitor like Frank Robinson!
Governmental forced lack of religion, based on science or not, has also killed millions:
Food for thought:
http://themattwalshblog.com/2013/09/13/christianity-has-done-more-for-science-than-atheism-ever-could/
JR, really you should actually think about the crud you copy and paste. Let's just do the first one, first.
OK, so you want to put atheists against religion to see who has killed more? Or are you just trying to equate atheists with religious deaths to make you feel better about those your religion physically harmed?
Then you put Ho Chi Minh on the list. Really. Some would not even place him on any list of evil dictators much less the atheist-hater version. Ho's vision, in his own words: "It was patriotism, not communism, that inspired me."
But for the record, Ho's father was a Confucian scholar. As the article states, the difference between atheism and Confucianism is not a stretch. Yet, in power, Ho practiced religious tolerance, by law, in Vietnam. I would say BUSTED.
http://hollowverse.com/ho-chi-minh/
Freedom of religion is one of the precious things we have, by being Americans.
My mom lived under Soviet control before she escaped and came here. She can talk about the subject better than I can, because she has lived it.
A torpedo just missed the boat she was on, as she left.
It's always amazed me, that people want to control other people's beliefs SO BAD that they would kill to maintain it.
Obviously, the Soviets felt that people's religion would be harmful to their regime, their ability to control.
JR, that article is ridiculous. After scrolling through the titles of the other blog entries, it isn't really surprising that you follow it.
MB JR, good article and I " get" the point he was making, especially his final paragraphs.
Apparently, some are not seeing, or don't want to see, the irony of the approach he has taken...quite clever.
For all of us, whether on side A or side B, we need to live and let live. Believe what you want, but don't tell me how to research the unknown. You may pass your findings on to your children and grandchildren and I will do the same with mine...
MB,
I don't follow it. I found it thru a google search, and I READ it. Did you? As I said- food for thought. Please tell us about it's "ridiculousness".... using the information in the article, not by attempting to assassinate the blogger based on his other blog topics.
Before the bible there were pagan beliefs, etc. and some people felt the bible had the answers when it came along.
Well, fast forward to today. We have many religions and science with numerous theories, constantly changing. Should one be "rigid" and seek no more?
Who on either side is being "rigid" and " seeking no more "?
Maybe I missed it in the posts above...
Of course I read it - how else would I be able to form an opinion on it?
Concluding that "Christianity has done more for science than atheism ever could" by citing a few scientists from hundreds of years ago who also happened to be Christians is ridiculous. I'm not discounting their contributions to science, but their Christianity had jack to do with it.
One of his other supporting arguments is that the Basilica of San Petronio was a sophisticated solar observatory. Talk about a stretch.
And the one reference to an atheist is Richard Dawkins and references pedophilia. Misleading to say the least.
Long story short it's an extremely biased article. But since you share the viewpoints (based on what I've read here), I'm not surprised that you wouldn't see that.
I watched it. Chilling! Prayed first, but what is your point in asking others to watch it?
"Long story short it's an extremely biased article. But since you share the viewpoints (based on what I've read here), I'm not surprised that you wouldn't see that."
And, since you do NOT share the viewpoints of the article, you are as well biased... pre-biased, before even reading it, I'd say. I say to-MAY-to, you say to-MAH-to.
As far as Dawkins, the article was accurate... not misleading:
http://www.salon.com/2013/09/10/richard_dawkins_defends_mild_pedophilia_says_it_does_not_cause_lasting_harm/
MB, I respect your viewpoint, although, of course I disagree. You are also free to think what you like about me, true or not.
If you think that one is biased, wait till you see IJay's viideo!
Zen is a belief system like any other. So is Zen now the enemy?
How about a belief system where someone tells you that anyone who gives you a belief system is your enemy? Hmm........
That's your response? You don't respond to any of the points, but just say "well you're biased too!". Ha. Speaks volumes.
The Dawkins thing IS misleading. The article makes it sound as if he endorses or participates in pedophilia and neither is the case. I'm not saying Richard Dawkins is an angel and he certainly enjoys being controversial, but the author of this blog chooses that person as the poster boy of atheism to diminish scientific contributions from those who do not identify with Christianity.
How about all the Christians who have actively participated in pedophilia. Can we expect an article about all the contributions Christians have made in that regard? Or do you only cling to those who have made beneficial contributions and ignore the rest?
As far as my response: YOU started it LOL. The whole "biased" thing.
Second, I don't even know who Dawkins is, but the article was not misleading. Also, it wasn't using Dawkins to discredit all scientific contributions, it listed many many Christian scientists as positive points; it's not saying "atheism is wrong because Dawkins is a pedophile", it's actually saying "look at all the important scientists who were Christian"... leading us to the conclusion science and religion are not mutually exclusive. I dare say the Catholic church PAID for a lot of the scientific research over the centuries. I also recently discovered Muslims have made huge contributions to the sciences.
And, for the record- pedophilia is wrong, regardless of who does it and who sanctions it. Obviously. No one is turning a blind eye to anything, except maybe you to Dawkins lol. He believes what he believes. Let's pray he doesn't act on those beliefs.
Yupper JR, you should really think before u cut n paste. Christians versus Atheists as to who leads in science. First, what a stupid question. And he answers it historically, in the present tense, and other witch ways. Who cares? If someone says "Christians are against science or Republicans are against science," that's just foolishness without grounds in fact. So is trying to prove who is more scientific.
And I'm sorry, what does Richard Dawson have to even do with the topic?
Food for thought? Junk food at best.
I have no idea who Richard Dawkins is, either... but it's obvious from what was written that he doesn't condone "mild pedophilia" (whatever the hell THAT is) TODAY. What he said is that he won't condemn the British schoolmaster who did it to him, presumably back in the 1950s... because it was a different time with different social standards.
Much like you using the name JeffersonRepub... should we take that to mean that you are a proponent of slavery, since you took the name of a well-known slave owner as your pseudonym? Or, do you abhor the concept of slavery today and before, but give Jefferson a pass simply because it was socially accepted (expected, even) during his time period?
Would you like a list of all the Christians who sanctioned pedophilia, from JPII on down?
"t's actually saying "look at all the important scientists who were Christian"... leading us to the conclusion science and religion are not mutually exclusive. I dare say the Catholic church PAID for a lot of the scientific research over the centuries. I also recently discovered Muslims have made huge contributions to the sciences."
And that's all well and good, but then the article should have been titled something else. Maybe "Christianity contributions to science", although I'm guessing that wouldn't have generated as much traffic. The title and its purpose were intended to be inflammatory and to somehow make it seem as though Christians have a leg up on Atheists when it comes to science.
"And, for the record- pedophilia is wrong, regardless of who does it and who sanctions it. Obviously. No one is turning a blind eye to anything, except maybe you to Dawkins lol. He believes what he believes. Let's pray he doesn't act on those beliefs."
He doesn't "believe" in pedophilia. Boy you really pick and choose. Did you even read the article you pasted above?
Oh, my,
if we all were perfect, we never would have needed Jesus.
Bro (like that guy on FAN would say) ... I saw a good cartoon, back before everything got posted on the internet, but I still remember it.
A little black kid was sitting outside a church, crying, and Jesus (depicted with the beard, white robe, sandals, etc.) asks what's the matter?
"They won't let me in there," the child says.
Jesus replies, "Well, they haven't let me in there for 200 years."
Richard Dawson, game show host and Hogan's hero's star. Very important fellow.
Yeah, that's what the Crusades was about, killing Muslims to steal their land and their science. Can you say Cesarean?
Of course all faiths have contributed to science. So have all genders, races, and most countries. Probably can say the same for constraining science as well. Just seems like a meaningless thought to pursue.
Next you'll be posting how science advanced religion.....
...from a personal development perspective. If you are a seeker then one way is to strip yourself of others preconceived notions. Osho and Buddhism, for example, are not religions in the common sense. They do not require worship nor do the have a god to submit to.
Food for thought? At least some of the scientists mentioned lived at a time and place in which they could not possibly be anything other than Christian. To denounce their faith would have meant their ruin and possibly their death. Its interesting the author lays claim to Galileo, for example. Galileo was vocal advocate for a CRAZY liberal theory called heliocentrism - that the earth and other planets revolve around the sun. When he refused to be stifled by the Church, they put him on trial. Galileo recanted his beliefs in order to avoid being burned alive for heresy. Instead, they locked him up for the rest of his life. And this, the author claims, is an example of Christianity's contribution to science!
Don't worry, the Church eventually admitted to being wrong - about 350 years later in 1992.
As to Galileo, here's another viewpoint on what REALLY happened: (of course, go ahead an dismiss the viewpoint, since it's coming from such a "biased" source.... )
More food for thought, for those truly interested in more information:
http://www.catholic.com/tracts/the-galileo-controversy
[since Galileo is DEAD, I guess we'll never know THE truth, since we can't ask HIM]
IJay, don't take this personal, but you might need to post a different video to make your point. That guy was scary...
Nothing screams pedophile louder than the Catholic church. My family is Roman Catholic and my father had to testify against a priest for what happened to him and many boys when they were young. Not trying to broad brush but I would slice off an arm before leaving my son with a priest.
Let's not forget the whole Dugger debacle. They tout their Christian faith all over the place and I'm sure if you looked in their closet, you wouldn't only find skeletons but a whole graveyard.
Yes, there are atheist pedophiles. I'm sure there are pedophiles from all different faiths or non faiths. My biggest pet peeve is that these disgusting people can continue to live with themselves because deep in their hearts they know god forgives them of their sins as long as they have faith. If you ask me, that belief is an open invitation to commit any wrong act because ultimately, ask and you shall be forgiven. blechhhh.
I don't need a book to tell me what is wrong or what is right. Common sense tells me to treat people how I want to be treated.
One more thing. How can you profess to worship a god who claims to hate part of his own creation? I'm referring to gay people. If the bible is all about loving thy neighbor why does it spew hatred to homosexuals.
phew.... for those looking for the learn and understand more on the subject of Christianity (and Judaism) and homosexuality (it's not as clear cut as you have been led to believe):
http://www.religioustolerance.org/hom_bibl.htm
Does catholic.com have a whitewash story for how they actually DID burn Giordano Bruno at the stake in 1600 for heresy for believing "that the stars were just distant suns surrounded by their own exoplanets and raised the possibility that these planets could even foster life of their own. He also insisted that the universe is in fact infinite and could have no celestial body at its "center"..." from Wikipedia
So did we ever ascertain why god does nothing about the pedophile priests?
I'm curious as to how creating a life for the sole purpose of ruining it fits into any grand plan.
So Wiki has now been recognized as a "reliable source for accurate information" by Ian, apparently.
"I'm curious as to how creating a life for the sole purpose of ruining it fits into any grand plan."
Who's doing that?
The inventions of science have killed far more people than any religion has. And it will remain that way until the end of time, no doubt.
"So Wiki has now been recognized as a "reliable source for accurate information" by Ian, apparently."
I already knew that he was burned at the stake in 1600... I just wasn't sure if I remembered what his actual "crime against Christianity" was. And I try to credit my sources on the rare occasions when I need to cut and paste... unlike some people.
Wow, that's some from pretty egregious propaganda from "Catholic Answers", whoever that might be. Spin, spin, spin....
The Church itself was a little more honorable, and honest, when they admitted they were wrong in 1992.
"The inventions of science have killed far more people than any religion has."
Guns really DO kill people? LOL... boy, you are the consummate flip-flopper, aren't you?
245 posts before guns come into play on a thread re: God, science and pedophiles.
Who won the pool?
I've never claimed any cut-and-paste as my own.
No flip-flopping here. Just posting ALTERNATE viewpoints that people otherwise wouldn't get to see if we leave the thread in the hands of the anti-religion-liberal-progressive-think-tank here on HL. Posting ALL sources of ALL information, so people can MAKE UP THEIR OWN MINDS.
But then, Ian doesn't need to learn anything new- he's already omniscient. Otherwise, how could he sleep at night?
I would think that someone who is truly omniscient wouldn't be able to ever sleep again, with all the sick things that go on in the world haunting his dreams. Only the blissfully ignorant can sleep soundly. I would love to be blissfully ignorant.
But as far as your nonsense in this thread, you've got to be joking. So, on your planet, if we're in a gun-control thread, guns DON'T kill people... but if we're in a "science vs. religion" thread, guns are a scientific invention and they DO kill people. Nope, no flip-flopping there...
JR, if a person is born, it was the will of your god.
If a person is raped or a victim of pedophilia, that is also the will of your god (or in his plan).
Sometimes, this action causes damage to an individual that can never be healed and/or drives them to take their own life. They are, in essence, ruined.
Therefore, your god allows people to be born only to live a life of ruin. So, he creates life for he purpose of destroying it.
How does that fit into his plan?
The INVENTION (science of) guns has certainly killed people. The GUNS THEMSELVES do not. Ditto:
bombs
bullets
rockets
IEDs
cyanide gas
mustard gas
gas chambers
napalm
knives
hammers
swimming pools
automobiles
baseball bats
health care/malpractice (this kills ALOT of people every year)
I could on & on... once again, no contradiction here, O GREAT ONE IANIMAL, who's ALWAYS got ALL the answers already....
btownguy,
With all due respect, I can't even reply to your post- because you don't understand what you're talking about AT ALL. If you knew anything about the Christian God, you would know that everything does not happen "at his will"- he gave us FREE WILL. So first, you've got to understand that, to even intelligently discuss the subject.
Jefferson, you just look foolish now. Maybe just back away from the keyboard slowly, what say you?
LOL, blaming the invention of an inanimate object is even MORE ridiculous than blaming the object itself.
I hope everyone else is enjoying your complete mental breakdown as immensely as I am...
JR,
Nice diversion. "You don't know what you're talking about so I won't answer you". I postulate that you don't understand modern science since you believe that the INVENTION of guns has killed people. As ianimal has stated, that's ridiculous.
However, based on your comments, we can infer that your god is not omnipotent then? He does not know all or see all? Or he has no love for the people created in his image?
How is this situation, as Old Gent stated earlier, god giving these individuals peace?
"Just posting ALTERNATE viewpoints that people otherwise wouldn't get to see if we leave the thread in the hands of the anti-religion-liberal-progressive-think-tank here on HL."
So let me understand. You are responsible for the pro-religion-conservative-regressive-non-thinkers-tank.........
Seriously, you have to understand that Soros pays by the post and by the word. If we don't post, he don't pay.
Now you have to excuse me, George has contracted to find a picture that shows forced religion that has killed millions. I must scan my anti-religion-progressive-think-tanks.
It's official.
God DOES exist, and he lives in Brooklyn.
http://www.nydailynews.com/new-york/god-proves-existence-brooklyn-court-article-1.2238765
When I'm occasionally asked what religion I am.. I simply tell them I am a Christian.
I have tried out many Christian religious sects and found that they all have their own man made rules and bigotry, missing the fact that Jesus loves everyone.
It just blows my mind that so many people that believe in the same god have actually come at war, killing each other..like the catholics and protestants in Ireland.
Why should Christianity be so segregated..ultimately separating worshipers from one another and losing the true word/meaning that Jesus wanted us to learn?
positive God exists and his lawyer is named Fishman. I guess that's bad news for Muslims (-;
Side note: When I said Jesus loves everyone I should have emphasized that he loves non believers as well.
According to Catholic dogma, does Jesus still exist as a separate entity in heaven or was he integrated back into God along with the Holy Spirit and now they're of one mind? I'm just curious of where the Church's teaching is on that. If they exist as two or three separate entities, are decisions made by consensus or does God rule unilaterally?
positive, the whole point of Christianity is that you have to believe in him in order to be saved from your sins. Safe to say unbelievers are not "saved", from what you probably don't want to know.
Ian, I have to agree i'ts very confusing and I have no answer. Maybe you should go straight to the top and ask the big man yourself? Being serious without sarcasm.
Jd2, I do not have all the facts and I can't speak for god, since I don't know what his agenda is. Like I suggested to ian, ask the big man yourself.
The Hindu religion probably has the best handle on time. One day for the Hindu god Brahma is over 4 billion years. Therefore, a god such as Brahma could care less what chaos is going on as it will all be over quite quickly for him...
"Side note: When I said Jesus loves everyone I should have emphasized that he loves non believers as well."
How could you possibly know that? Same with your response on ask the big man yourself. Has he ever talked back to you? If so, why hasn't he answered the prayers of sick, dying and starving children? I guess they just don't pray hard enough? What makes you think Christianity is the one true religion? Its not even the oldest. Are you saying the Jews and Muslims don't worship the right god so they must be going to hell? God will forgive all of your sins and let you into heaven if you repent. However, if you don't believe, you are condemned to hell. Better hope your god is the right one.
Revelation 21:8 ESV
"But as for the cowardly, the faithless, the detestable, as for murderers, the sexually immoral, sorcerers, idolaters, and all liars, their portion will be in the lake that burns with fire and sulfur, which is the second death.”
I could reference at least 5 more passages about the faithless being sent to Satan's den. What an insecure, conceited god.
"positive" is a very kind soul who doesn't deserve derision. Same with Spring Fever and Old Gent. Others not mentioned are subject to your personal mileage, which may vary (-;
But I wasn't asking a question that only God could answer... just wondering where Catholic dogma currently stood. Any devout Catholic (or other sect with similar beliefs) should be able to answer, I would think. No need to bother the man upstairs (-;
I don't think God is as mean as all that.
Just because people believe there is a supreme being, does not mean we all think He is the same thing.
That's like when people think everybody in "the media" thinks and acts the same way.
Andy, some of us were discussing specifically the Christian God, not some nebulous "supreme being". The God who sent his son to earth to suffer the capital punishment that rightly should be our fate, due to our sinful state. But, in the end only those who believe in him are "saved".
So is God "mean" to unbelievers? We can say no, but how exactly did it come about that people who do not believe, including those that have never heard of Jesus, etc, are not being "saved"? And what is this peril many are not being saved from?
btownguy said"
"If a person is raped or a victim of pedophilia, that is also the will of your god (or in his plan)."
THIS is where I'm telling you that you obviously don't know what you're talking about, regarding God's will/free will.... you might want to do some research before forming such uneducated opinions on the subject.
I look at the Bible as stories inspired by God. In the beginning he created the garden Of Eden ( The Perfect World). I don't know how long it lasted but I know when it ended. The tree of knowledge is ( Good Or Bad ) DIVISIVE. Just look at this form.
The maladies of life effect us all ( believers or not.) It is the promise he gave me ( like no other ) offered by any other entente, that I put my faith in. I don't recall Jesus denying the Old Testament happenings. I do know he showed his rage at happenings in the Temple. I wonder what he thinks of today's church other then he knows we all come short of his glory.
jd2; Once I accepted Jesus, that's the charge given to me. To tell the world about him before he returns. With communications as they are today it may not be long???
Peace.
The "church" was created for fellow believers to gather and worship God and avoid persecution, to comfort and to help fellow MAN.
Church is when two or more gather in His name.
I fear that God/Jesus/ Holy Spirit isn't pleased with today's "church", for when MAN gets involved, he tends to mess things up.
I'm going back to it's a personal relationship with God the Creator, and not until you have such a relationship and nurture it ( as in all relationships ) you will never know or understand His love for us.
Regarding the origin of much of the Old Testament, I recall the late Israeli statesman Abba Eban saying this:
When the Jews were taken away into captivity from Palestine by the Babylonians, around 500 BC, they were terribly upset by the loss of everything they held dear. They had a tremendous history, none of which was written down. To try to save that history, that culture, the Jewish leaders wrote down for the first time, in a series of books, all that had been passed down orally. These books later formed much of what we call the Old Testament.
When you think about it, it helps to explain why there is so much genealogy in the Old Testament (so-and-so begat so-and-so, etc). Most of that means nothing to us now, but when written it was very important in the effort to preserve the history and culture of the Jewish people.
Jazzy I know he listens and answers my prayers because he has many times.
Not sure why you are putting down my faith when I never put down what you have chosen to believe in or to not believe in. You seem pretty angry, did you have a bad experience in your past concerning religion?
If you believe in Darwin or Darwinism fine its total bs but whatever - show me one species that has jumped over the Evolutionary line and can now speak or drive a car its not happening...ever - imo
So all I care about is what is going to happen to us - the human race and ran into a Jewish Rabbi from Jersey who wrote a book "The Harbinger...
Alll Darwin wanted to do was equate people to monkeys so they could be slaughtered like dogs in the 20th Century - how many did they kill in WW1 & WW2?
But whatever...if you learn nothing else these Joel Osteen have a nice day MInistries will get you killed,
Peace out
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jq738YKTNWE
Forget it... I'm joining the church of Scientology. Now I have to find a copy of "Dianetics".
I'll leave these here:
God is omnipotent, omniscient, and omnibenevolent - it says so right here on the label. If you have a mind capable of believing all three of these attributes simultaneously, I have a wonderful bargain for you. No checks, please. Cash and in small bills. [Robert Heinlein, Notebooks of Lazarus Long]
Of all the strange crimes that humanity has legislated out of nothing, blasphemy is the most amazing - with obscenity and indecent exposure fighting it out for second and third place. [Robert Heinlein, Notebooks of Lazarus Long]
Sin lies only in hurting other people unnecessarily. All other sins are invented nonsense. (Hurting yourself is not sinful--just stupid.) [Robert Heinlein]
Theology is never any help; it is searching in a dark cellar at midnight for a black cat that isn't there. [Robert A. Heinlein, JOB: A Comedy of Justice]
Anyone who can worship a trinity and insist that his religion is a monotheism can believe anything... just give him time to rationalize it. [Robert A. Heinlein, JOB: A Comedy of Justice]
The Bible is such a gargantuan collection of conflicting values that anyone can prove anything from it. [Robert Heinlein, Dr. Jacob Burroughs in The Number of the Beast]
The faith in which I was brought up assured me that I was better than other people; I was saved, they were damned ...Our hymns were loaded with arrogance -- self-congratulation on how cozy we were with the Almighty and what a high opinion he had of us, what hell everybody else would catch come Judgment Day. [Robert A. Heinlein, from Laurence J. Peter, Peter's Quotations: Ideas for Our Time, also James A. Haught, ed., 2000 Years of Disbelief, Famous People with the Courage to Doubt]
When any government, or any church for that matter, undertakes to say to its subjects, 'This you may not read, this you may not see, this you are forbidden to know,' the end result is tyranny and oppression, no matter how holy the motives. Mighty little force is needed to control a man whose mind has been hoodwinked; contrariwise, no amount of force can control a free man, a man whose mind is free. No, not the rack, not fission bombs, not anything--you can't conquer a free man; the most you can do is kill him. [Robert Heinlein]
The_Bishop " . . .no amount of force can control a free man, a man whose mind is free. "
and therin lies the crux of the dynamics of this conversation, and it is just this that is critical to a big part of the plan from above . . . . . . .
to each one of us is given the opportunity to decide about the evidence that is right in front of us, evidence that demands a verdict, most of the 12 apostles were put to death for their beliefs, it is not probable that people would go to their death over a combined lie. if not true, most would give up the lie before giving up their life. but these witnesses did not do that, they saw what was real and they went to their deaths proclaiming it. this is evidence that demands a verdict . . . . .
ian - i am working on your question about the catholic teachings on the trinity or godhead.
it's complicated and needs to be described properly
Positive,
I'm not angry or trying to put down your faith. I just get somewhat annoyed when believers don't answer simple questions. Honestly, why does god listen to you but ignore millions of sick and suffering? It just seems a little arrogant is all.
Also, the god of the bible is pretty awful, especially in the Old Testament. Why do believers pick and choose the cuddly warm parts but ignore the violence, rape, murder and oppression? If you don't accept all parts of your biblical god then you just went ahead and created one to suit your beliefs. So tell me again why any of this is so believable?
Why is that when people suggest that the believers might be wrong, they're labeled as angry and anti-religion? It's even suggested that they're bound for hell. But when the believers suggest the non-believers are wrong, they're just being good Christians?
I don't know why you perceive me as being angry. I am just telling my story as to who, and why I chose to put my faith in God. As a christian it is my obligation to spread the Peace and Promise he offers to those that believe, around the world. You are free to make your choice.
I think it's when you decide to "spread" it to those of an another faith or those who don't wish to hear, and you keep laying it on, that it sounds like you're proselytizing. I mean it's one thing to discuss, it's another to "spread."
People who have different beliefs are not necessarily wrong, they just don't agree with you. And who's to say that our one "God" does not father all monotheistic religions. God is Omni-Omni after all.
bibleuniverse.com
amazingfacts.org
A lot of good answers to a lot of good questions....
AB14 MG There a different strokes for different folks. I make people aware of him and give an invitation to join me in worshiping him. I don't condemn anyone. I am not the judge. I am not perfect. I just have faith his promise as it is my job, that came with my commitment to him ,to spread the word in his world. I WILL BE JUDGED by the job I have done. It is my choice as I pray it may be yours.
Gadfly, maybe you should reread my post. I'm not judging anyone nor putting them down for what they choose. Suggesting they are bound for hell? You didn't get that from me. If another poster's response seems combative, I have the right to question it.
Jazzy, you have some very good points about the Old Testament which seems to contradict the New Testament. I don't have the answers, but because of my life experiences..my trust in God has become stronger. Furthermore, you and everyone else have the right to believe or disbelieve in anything you want and I respect that.
I didn't come on here to try to change anyone's mind, I just wanted to express how I feel about God.
Jazzykatt, there is a difference between awful and just. The Bible says the punishment for sin is death, so we should expect some of the bad things in the Old testament. The difference between the two is in the New testament Jesus came and died for our sins so we wouldn't have so much death and destruction.
Matt101,
Please explain the justness in Deutoronomy....Happy reading.
Deuteronomy
314.The Israelites, with God's help, kill all the men, women, and children of every city. 3:3-6
321.If someone makes an image of anything (like a bird or flower) then God will destroy the entire nation. 4:25-26
322.If you worship the wrong god, God will get jealous and kill you. 6:15
330.God is "a consuming fire" that destroys people. 9:3
332.After God kills those of other faiths, be sure to reject their beliefs and do not learn about them. Otherwise God will have to kill you too. 12:30
333.Prophets and dreamers are to be executed if they say or dream the wrong things. 13:1-5
334.If your brother, son, daughter, wife, or friend tries to get you to worship another god, "thou shalt surely kill him, thine hand shall be first upon him to put him to death." 13:6-10
If you hear of a city where another god is worshiped, then destroy everyone in the city (even the cattle) and burn it down.
344."But of the cities ... which the Lord thy God doth give thee for an inheritance, thou shalt save alive nothing that breatheth." Kill the old men and women, the sick and the dying, the blind and the lame, pregnant mothers, nursing mothers, infants, toddlers, and babies. 20:16
If you have a "stubborn and rebellious son," then you and the other men in your neighborhood "shall stone him with stones that he die."
If a man marries, then decides that he hates his wife, he can claim she wasn't a virgin when they were married. If her father can't produce the "tokens of her virginity" (bloody sheets), then the woman is to be stoned to death at her father's doorstep. 22:13-21
"I make people aware of him and give an invitation to join me in worshiping him."
That's my point OldGent. Hopefully you are not putting on a dark suit, white shirt and thin tie and knocking on doors :>) Imagine if I did the same for evolution. How would creationists take that one?
I'll go one by one.
1. They sinned, they were demolished. Refer to my previous post.
2. If you read it, I believe the passage was addressing the group collectively. One of the Ten Commandments is Thou shalt not have any God's before me. If you don't obey the Commandments, you are sinning. The punishment for sin is death. Refer to my previous post.
3. Same thing.
4. Same thing as #1.
5. Please re-read 12:30. You warped the meaning of the verse horribly. What it is saying is do not worship the Lord as they had worshiped their gods. Because in their worship they sinned.
6. You once again are making up things to fit your agenda. It doesn't say they said the wrong thing, because the verse assumed it happened! The false prophet must be put to death because he was sinning by not only worshiping false gods, but trying to get the Israelites to do so as well. As previously stated, the punishment for sin is death.
7. Same thing as #6.
8. Same thing
9. What you conveniently did not add is the reason. "Otherwise, they will teach you to follow all the detestable things they do in worshiping their gods, and you will sin against the Lord your God." (verse 18)
10. The rebellious son is sinning. The punishment for sin is death.
11. Thou shalt not commit adultery. Another one of the Ten commandments. Adultery is a sin. The punishment for sin is death.
Your "ISIS manual" sounds very just to me! The difference between ISIS and this, is Jesus. Jesus came so that all of us who committed sins could be forgiven, and their wouldn't have to be so much death and destruction.
MG, I have done that being showed by believers I admired back the 50's. You knocked on a door and you were invited in. Now all the doors are Locked. I still wear only white shirts though.
jazzy- please quote your source for what you copied and pasted? thanks,
it seems many of the passages you copied and pasted here are not what is actually in the text of Deuteronomy, and as matt101 points out the real meaning can be twisted unless viewed in it's fuller context.
basically this is old testament (the older outdated covenant); for Christians the new testament (new covenant) is what rules now,
to comment further these accounts in Deuteronomy are of a war situation, cruel things happen in wars, no way to make it look right from a peacefull perspective, war is bad all around, always was and always will be,
chapter 3 gives a history of what happened during one of the wars, cities and towns conquered, people put to death, the winner taking the spoils. how is that any different than what happened during the civil war here in the states?
i think it is of particular interest to note that King Og, was laid to rest in a sarcophagus of basalt that was 14 feet long and 6 feet wide. Only a true giant among men would fit a box of that size. and it goes on to say that Og was descended from the Giants (the aunnuaki, the 'fallen' angels, King Og was descended from the line of the fallen angels is what is being said here)
that's why god led the Israelites into war against Og and his kingdom. (according to the old testament)
"show me one species that has jumped over the Evolutionary line and can now speak or drive a car its not happening...ever - imo"
so other creatures on this planet can't speak?? or are we just not evolved enough to understand them? And im pretty sure i saw a monkey ride a motorcyle in the circus :)
"basically this is old testament (the older outdated covenant); for Christians the new testament (new covenant) is what rules now"
Since when did god personally tell you to disregard the old testament? Once you start picking and choosing what you want to believe you discredit your god completely. If you believe in him, you take the good with the bad.
I took those passages from Deuteronomy and some are written in lay terms. They mean what they mean. There really isn't anything confusing about them. War is war but why is god killing babies??? They haven't even formed a belief yet. Pretty disgusting endorsement.
Here is another atrocious passage from Numbers 31.
31:17 Now therefore kill every male among the little ones, and kill every woman that hath known man by lying with him.
31:18 But all the women children, that have not known a man by lying with him, keep alive for yourselves.
Use some common sense. What purpose would it serve to kill everyone except the virgins? What do you honestly think they were going to do with them? It is a disgusting passage on keeping women as sexual objects.
jazzy- you still haven't linked to your source you copied and pasted from without attribute, why won't you post the link like you are supposed to for cut and past jobs as is forum policy? (or did you learn this from our resident plagiarist who still does it from time to time?) so i am asking you please quote your source for what you copied and pasted?
i don't pick and choose so don't put words in my mouth to convince yourself that you are right, it is inaccurate as it is a strawman debate technique that's invalid. i never said or intimated what you said. you made it up. that's not helping an honest discussion. for the record i do take the good with the bad just so you know, and i cannot explain everything as i don't know everything. you seem to want to talk this out so i am trying to respond with things that i think are helpful. maybe that's not working too well here.
I love listening to the birds when I take early-morning walks.
I've read that most of their chirping, is birds being territorial, but still, there has to be some kind of evolved communication going on.
I hear chirping at sports events, too. If you get my drift, I sometimes wonder which is the more 'advanced' species.
"jazzy- you still haven't linked to your source you copied and pasted from without attribute, why won't you post the link like you are supposed to for cut and past jobs as is forum policy?"
isn't she quoting the bible?? So she listed her "sources" didn't she?
no look further up - all the numbered points; several of them block copied and pasted, she still hasn't provided the link to her source.
It appears Jazzykat copied from the website of the "Skeptics Annotated Bible, Deuteronomy: Prophecy" for some of her posts. I don't have time to check the site for all of the quotes...
From a secular point of view, it seems clear that:
People, especially in the past, have needed a "god" to explain things, to help them. Basically people conjured up the type of god needed at the time.
Perhaps our Christian friends will agree with this, regarding all the "false gods".
In old testament times, the Israelites lived in a tough world and time; they wanted a god who was harsh to justify the nasty things they were doing to their enemies. (And was being done to them as well.)
The Roman era of Jesus was rather peaceful, and so a loving god was much preferred!
I still believe in God no matter what all you holier-than-thou's have to say about it.
I will not be arguing this point, just stating the facts. The various groups God told the Israelites to go against were people who were using their infants, babies and even older children as sacrifices to their Gods. They also including prostitution in their religious ceremonies to their many Gods, and had a variety of sexual practices condemned by God....one was beastiality. Given the Israelites track record, they were prone to fall into the practices of those they lived with or near. They had taken on most of the Egyptian practices and made a golden calf while on their Exodus journey. God knew their waywardness very well. He also knew the manner in which other groups conducted their wars. They were brutal as well. This can all be verified by going on a variety of sites, but needless to say, you won't be finding it on the Skeptics Annotated Bible site.
Spring Fever is correct. The Skeptics Annotated Bible is where I pulled some of my information from. Other quotes come directly from the bible. However, If you so want me to take the time to dig up my dusty bible and give it to you directly from the supposed word of god, I believe the meanings will be the same. God states MANY times over that he is a jealous god and will kill you if you worship another. Why would that be punishable by death? That means that a large portion of the human population is doomed since we all aren't worshipping the same god.
So God answers "positive's" prayers?! That's amazing. He/she should explain just how to do it to the families of kids with cancer. They must be going about it the wrong way.
Suze Jazzykatt,
1. I disagree that we should totally disregard the Old Testament, but in the New testament Jesus did give us a new covenant that more or less replaced the one in the Old Testament.
2. You are once again taking verses out of context, i encourage you to read this webpage ( http://apologeticspress.org/apcontent.aspx?category=11&article=763) from which this paragraph is from:
The allegation that the Israelite men spared the young girls in order to rape them is nothing but baseless supposition predicated upon a lack of biblical knowledge. In the custom of the time, marriages were conducted at a young age. Therefore, the reference to the young girls who had not “known man by lying with him” would indicate that they were very young, likely under the age of twelve. These girls were too young to be able to lead the men of Israel away from Jehovah; therefore, these girls were allowed to live. As to raping them, it is more logical to assume that they wanted these girls for servants. This would be similar to Joshua 9, where Joshua allowed the Gibeonites to live in compelled servitude to the Israelites. Moreover, it would have been sinful for the Israelite men to rape the Midianite girls because rape was (and still is) abhorrent to God (Deuteronomy 22:23-28, esp. 25).
"God states MANY times over that he is a jealous god and will kill you if you worship another. Why would that be punishable by death? That means that a large portion of the human population is doomed since we all aren't worshipping the same god."
That is exactly correct. God makes it very clear that we are to worship only him, because he created us. Without him, we wouldn't exist and we owe everything we have been blessed by to him. That is why this is punishable by death. Maybe it shouldn't be from Jazzykatts point of view, but unfortunately, you don't make the rules. God does.
Some doubt Mr. G? If you are so confident then there is no need to make such statement.
I am a fellow traveler of numerous religions but I refuse to abide by any. Statistically it is a roll of the dice, maybe yes -- maybe no. You know that you are dealing with a 50% situation...
Seems clear to me that the young girls of the enemy were spared so they could in time be taken as wives. Okay.
All boys and everyone else were instructed to be killed.
Matt101
I strongly advise that you keep on praying that your god is the one true god. In saying so, you are telling many other faiths that their beliefs are wrong and that they are condemned to hell. I don't know exactly how you so firmly believe you are right when there were numerous gods before yours even existed.
JazzyKatt, please do pull out your dusty Bible, ( I use to have one too ; ), but might I recommend starting with the Book of John to brush up on some Genesis information, then you can always go back to Dueteronomy for your reading pleasure. You will be in my prayers.
I believe God is more capable of forgiving than most Christians give Him credit for.
He can forgive people for being "misinformed" or being misled by various forms of propaganda. He understands that people have grown up in different cultures and have been given a variety of different messages.
He knows the condition of one's heart and has greater understanding than what simple human minds can imagine. I also believe He does not take people until they "are ready." Like Billy Joel sang, "only the good die young."
That's just my point of view, for what it is worth.
Must be nice to be born into the correct religion. Lucky for Matt his parents weren't Jewish, Hindus, Muslims, Buddhists, ect.
That is so true Andy! I also think it is hard to grasp the extent of God's love for all of His creations on all continents...
actually i am not religious, don' belong to a religion or a church, but i do have faith,
the descriptions in the good book and elswhere are trying to convey infomation to us that we can't readily see.
if you can't see it or touch it does it still exist? (answers please)
is it possible for things to exist outside of the 4 dimensions we live in? if it is possible, then how can it be proved or demonstrated to us who are limited in our purview to length, width, height and time?
on the other thread many are relaying real life experiences that defy rational logical explanations, and yet they are not making them up, or fabricating lies, or telling stories, those things happened to them just the way they describe them
that's more evidence that demands a verdict. do you think they are all crazy? or self delusional? really? (does saying that help you sleep at night?)
there are things in this world that are as yet unseen, that are very close to us, the good book is suggesting reaching out for it, "behold, i stand at the door and knock" (from revelations)
just open the door,
So if it is being said that God only wants you to worship him, why do you stand before statues of mary and statues of a man on a cross and start asking those concrete pieces of stone and marble, those inanimate objects for help?
and why do you worship Jesus?
Jesus was merely a man who was a prophet to spread the word of God. Jesus always called himself the Son of Man.
H-town Mama,
I don't know of any Christians who worship Mary. That would be Catholics. We worship Jesus because we believe that Jesus is God. God is a trinity, The Father (God), The Son (Jesus), and the Holy Spirit. Jesus called himself the Son of man because he was technically born of a human. But he was sent to earth by his heavenly father, God.
"why do you stand before statues of mary and statues of a man on a cross and start asking those concrete pieces of stone and marble, those inanimate objects for help?"
this statement shows a remarkable misunderstanding of how prayer works, esp coming from one who studies the faith as much as you do h-townmama
i know of no Christians who do this, not even catholics, please take a moment and think this through; none of them i have run across pray to an inanimate object, they all pray to the lord above, show me one who doesn't?
why do you travel to mecca once a year to throw little stones at rectangular obelisks? don't you know that the great satan isn't actually in them? or don't you?
wow! just wow!
hey, i know, it's the same reason you can't draw pictures of your prophet, that's why,
andy is right in what he said before . . . . . . . (omgoodness, where's the tolerance now?)
matt101 - catholics are christians, they really are. and so are Jehovah witnesses, and many others.
Whoa...so Catholics aren't Christians? I think there are a lot of Catholics would take exception with that position. Like, all of them.
"He/she should explain just how to do it to the families with the kids of cancer."
Suze, God has not answered all of my prayers the way I had wanted him to, but instead showed me and taught me tough life lessons to become a better person. He has always picked me up when I have fallen and has been by my side throughout my entire life.
I'm sorry but I've no answer for the sick and dying kids, which I can't even fathom what the parents are going through and my heart goes out to them. Only God himself can answer your question.
God works in mysterious ways that can be very questionable and frustrating to many people.
As a reformed Catholic, we did worship statues, every time I kneeled at the altar in front of Jesus on the cross and his mother Mary to his left. We prayed while looking up to them which is unbelievable since according to our bible we should all be going to hell for doing so.
Stop telling people that they don't understand. It's very condescending. If any of you had any substantial evidence of god's existence you would be world renowned.
H-Mama, Jesus is the son of God and we are his children. As far as praying to statues, confessing sins to a priest and lighting candles..that would be Catholicism, but it is a Christian faith.
Like I said in my original post, many Christian sects cause division and sometimes steer people away from the true meaning and worship of God. Many sects have their own made up rules and agendas and this is why I am a Nondenominational Christian.
BD and Matt, it seems like both of you are insinuating that Catholics aren't Christians. I'm a little taken back by both of your comments. I was raised as a Baptist and now I do not belong to any sect so it's not as though I'm taking your comments personally. Just curious...
We'll close the evening by picturing the combination of the two most popular HL threads. OK, I'm getting an image.......... :>)
God is a myth that you'd rather tell yourself rather than just embracing the truth. The truth? When you die the lights go out. Then you rot for an eternity, or at least until you are soil. Then, you may contribute to nourishing new life.
The truth is far more beautiful then the mythology.
Hail Mary, full of grace.
Our Lord is with thee.
Blessed art thou among women,
and blessed is the fruit of thy womb,
Jesus.
Holy Mary, Mother of God,
pray for us sinners,
now and at the hour of our death.
Amen.
So this means what exactly? You are not praying to God for help you are praying to a mere human being... And God did not have a mother or a father or a sister or a brother or a grandmother etc.... So Mother of God means what exactly?
Once you examine it for what it really is you will see it's all idol worship
"Stop telling people that they don't understand. It's very condescending."
YES! But if you respond in kind you are a godless, angry atheist.
positive, catholics are christians, that's what i said to matt, you read me wrong, i was saying the exact opposite of what you listed, i was telling matt that they are indeed Christians, how would you think i was saying it different? go back and re-read what's posted? maybe i wasn't clear enough, so sorry about that; not all christians are catholics, but all catholics are christians, you and i are on the same page here, about the prayers, and god's answers to prayers and all of it, we are in agreement, i also do not belong to a specific church for the same reason you listed,
h-town mama - no offense meant to you, as you are a good person, but it's not idol worship, i think you got it wrong from your studies, that prayer is reaching across the void to ask Mary for support and succor, it's not worship, and it's not an idol, it's a petition for support that states and gives credence to the mother of the savior.
you so far have declined to respond about the stone obelisks in Mecca? you do know that they aren't really the great satan, correct? so why throw stones at an inanimate object? what for?
what's the big deal with drawing a picture of the prophet? what harm does it do?
btw, please define what is an 'idol' from your perspective? and why is it a problem for Islamists? Why do Islamists destroy the history of mankind by breaking apart ancient statues, buildings and tearing down churches? why is destroying all evidence of other older cultures a requirement?
ok, this next question is intended to promote a robust discussion: Do Islamists watch 'American Idol'? if yes, isn't that a form of idol worship that should be banned? should we now go and burn down the fox tv studios where it is produced and behead the shows production staff? Idol worship is a sin that is so severe the only relief is to put to death those who are involved in it, correct?
so who has the real faith right? the sunnis or the shias and why? why is it so hard to figure out who the true faithful of the prophet are? shouldn't this be clearer? please explain.
you don't have to believe that the son of god came down to earth in the flesh born to Mary. but that is what the new testament describes, and the witnesses give their accounts of, and the prophesies of the old testament predict, and you don't have to be a Christian, that's a free choice you make, but for Christians , they believe what the good book lays down, that Mary gave birth to the son of god and that Jesus is lord. that our creator came to us in the flesh as human, and died for our sins, believe it or not, this is the choice we all make, the evidence of the witnesses demands a verdict, many of you have chosen not to accept the grace that has been offered freely and seem to have a really big problem with those who have made another choice, (i wonder why that is),
it's not condescending if they got it wrong, i get corrected up here often, i don't assign the emotionally charged accusatory code word 'condescending' to it. i accept the information as offered and move on.
jazzy, my statements are all true, of all the Christians that i know, no one prays to a piece of cement, or a picture, they pray to the lord above, if you were praying to a ceramic statue then i believe you may have missed the true meaning of the teaching that the Catholics offered you. (not hard to do in some parishes) if you were taught to pray to a stone or ceramic statue then i believe you were taught wrong. all the Catholics i know do not do this, and i know a lot of Catholics and have been to many different parishes over my lifetime. i have never seen it happen. the priests i have spoken to do not do this or teach this, it is not part of what they do.
as i said before, that's not how prayer works, that's not condescending, that's what i believe
H-town mama,
Perhaps I have "gotten it wrong", but over recent years your posts make it seem that you might be a Muslim? (practicer of Islam)? If so, please tell us how that is NOT "idol worship".
(as I said, I could be wrong, perhaps you are an agnostic or atheist, I'm just making a guess based on many of your recent posts in other threads)
You can't tell me I'm wrong because you don't know anything for certain either. Your beliefs are your interpretations of the written word. Everybody has their own interpretation which is why it is hard to all come into agreement on what is fact and what is fiction. For example, saying that a statue is not an idol is ludicrous. Why don't you define what you think and Idol is.
Robost discussion? LOL just because a show has the word "idol" in it doesn't mean anyone watching it actually worships the contestants. I don't anyone has a poster of Carrie Underwood in their bedroom that they pray too. Well maybe Eric the Actor did :)
Every day is a gift with new secrets to uncover. Those who stand rigid in mythology of the past our present are missing out. But then again maybe others are missing out...
No matter what you believe or don't believe don't force it on others. Your position should be one that does not require another to be at sword-point.
The greatest questions that all regions and science try to resolve/prove:
1) Who put us here?
2) Why are we here?
3) Where do we go after we die?
The zinger is that it is very probable that none of these questions above will be answered for along time if ever. We may well be "players" in a game that we cannot get out of to understand the greater truth, and our intelligence may not be able to comprehend this truth. The truth may be eluding all of us but be out there right now.
All of this being said, there is no right or wrong as this concept is a creation of man. Whatever you choose to believe or not to believe is YOUR choice. In ancient India there were 33 millions gods in part because that was the population at the time. Each person was free (within Hinduism) to believe what he/she wanted to believe. Only when the Western man came with his one-god mindset did this ideology of having numerous gods come into question.
Personally, I am uncertain of all religions and scientific theories -- none are complete and probably never will be. In the meantime I follow what makes the most sense. Since I have uncertainty upfront I have no doubt as I take nothing as the complete answer.
In the meantime, we hopefully enjoy each day and eventually all of us reading this forum will die. Common sense will tell you that death is "natural" since all living beings die. To not die would not be natural but easy for the nervous mind to swallow.
So, it is your choice...
In the begining God supposedly placed in the Garden of Eden the tree of the knowledge of good and evil. What was the reason for this tree?
"The greatest questions that all regions and science try to resolve/prove:
1) Who put us here?
2) Why are we here?
3) Where do we go after we die?"
I'd just point out that the way these questions are framed is not neutral. They guide the discussion towards a god or supreme being - and an afterlife. The first problem is in asking "who". That immediately guides the discussion towards an intelligent creator. Maybe the question should be "How did we get here?".
And again, asking "why are we here" infers that there is in fact a reason beyond random natural processes. To have a reason infers a greater power.
"Where do we go after we die?" seems to implicitly assume that we actually go somewhere. Perhaps we don't go anywhere. If we didn't exist before we were born then why must anything of us survive after we die? Maybe the question is "What happens to us after we die?"
RAD IT was a temptation and god wanted Adam to fail and eat from the tree or he would not have put it there or told Adam to eat and learn Its all About Control
I don't take that story literally, it's a metaphor for the way things are.
Human beings think they are so smart, and think they have all the answers, but they keep messing things up. It has been happening for centuries.
While you're all praying for jazzykat it's clear she's doing the thinking for the majority here. kudos to you Jazzy
That was good, Old Gent.
Democracy is messy, always lots of problems, but I can't think of anything better.
One nation, Under God, indivisible with liberty and justice for all.
Kind of an elusive goal, but we've gotta keep trying.
My Musings IMHOP
As I look back to what made this country different. It was the Constitution that made room for everyone to have a vote, in controlling Government from all their different perspectives. It worked pretty well for a while after surviving a civil war. It never did give fairness, just Freedom and Opportunity. Justice was supposed to give the fairness. It was supposed be blind but it peeks allot. It failed because, man couldn’t handle the responsibilities required, that comes with being free to make choices.
I remember happier times growing up. We all lived in neighborhoods. The town was made up of sections. Irish, Italian, Polish, Jewish, Black, and few Spanish. Each had their own little culture. You only saw American flags on homes. They all looked out for each other. Most went to worship and gave thanks for what little we did have. The Church and Temple were part of our culture.
The Music was love songs. Like Movies being, ‘I'm singin' in the rain, Just singin' in the rain, What a glorious feelin', I'm happy again. Or plays like We know we belong to the land, And the land we belong to is grand!, And when we say,Yeeow! Ayipioeeay!
We're only sayin', You're doin' fine, Oklahoma!, Oklahoma O.K. Look at how many great singers came out of Church’s, and Temples singing praises to the Lord.
Where do the singers come from today? They are singing about the miseries and the unfairness ‘of life, and hate. The Language used today, would never be acceptable 60 years ago. Today you are paying to listen to it.
I have seen the ACLU and NACP and other Organizations come to the fore looking for fairness that is not part of the constitution. They said we have to integrate. The governments’ promise is being accepted by many, to take control of, and provide for their needs in the name of equality and fairness. So far I only see more divisiveness, and miseries, then we had before. So it is in Cesar’s world. Many look back to their growing up years with yearnings. I guess this is what progress gave us.
I am thankful that my faith is in my Lord through Jesus, gives me the Peace and assurance to survive in his world. No other option comes close to his promise. It is easy to nick pick words, but, hard to take a leap to Faith. I pray you may try it.
Andy, Ike added added "Under God" and it's been under attack ever since. The mention of God will do that.
“Sleep, those little slices of death — how I loathe them.” Edgar Allen Poe.
I believe that death is like sleep. When you sleep there is no sensation, no awareness of anything (if you don't dream). You don't know you are asleep until you wake up. When you die there is no waking up. There is no going to heaven or hell. You are buried or burned. (cremated).And there is no more, but people don't want to think that way so someone dreamed up the idea of an afterlife in heaven if you were good.
"Rad, Why not start a new thread and see where it goes?"
Ha!. Thanks, but I think we know where that thread would go, Spring Fever. Might as well just let this one continue. I really don't expect any answer to those questions within my relatively short remaining lifespan - and I certainly wouldn't expect to get them here.
Seriously, Old Gent? You must have been dreaming. The world you describe never existed. Talk about rose colored glasses!
It wasn't perfect. There were just as many of the same problems as you have today. It was better because of a God fearing attitude being more prevalent. More people were happy with what they had, then I see today. Even colors were brighter Cars were all kinds of colors.Today you see more Black or White then anything else. Today they see the world as Black or White. Even non believers would cite the 10 Commandments as a bases of rules.
Rad, I honestly wasn't going to be posting on your thread because I have already said enough on this one. But I think there would be others who did not feel comfortable on this line of posts, but would feel less threatened on yours. But suit yourself . They are all good questions.
Cliff R, I am of the same mindset as you. That is what I believe happens. It is a scary thought to many to die out into nothingness; however, it makes me appreciate and love this life so much more. I live to live and not live to die in HOPES of living again.
Isaac Asimov wrote that he believes in no afterlife, and he's glad, because the "heaven" described in the major religions sounds incredibly boring!
Joshua
“1 Now after the death of Moses the servant of the Lord it came to pass, that the Lord spake unto Joshua the son of Nun, Moses' minister, saying,
“2 Moses my servant is dead; now therefore arise, go over this Jordan, thou, and all this people, unto the land which I do give to them, even to the children of Israel.”
Moses, I believe was 120 years old when he died, and there were people who lived beyond 900 years and bore children at 700 years. Moses was God’s servant. Why didn’t God bring Moses back from the dead or not let him die in the first place?
BD, somehow i missed your questions the first time around, I apologize. I fully intend on answering them as best that I can. I will ask you to be a little patient as I will have to make time to do this. I know that my answer will by no means agree with your preconceived notions and answers you have already formulated and completely realize and accept that we all have the free will to believe what we want. There is no compulsion in religion is the first tenet of my Islamic faith. You will find this statement in verse 256 in the Quran.
Some of my postings were merely questions that were posed to me when I was attending Mount Saint Mary Academy/Sisters of Mercy many years ago. Was curious if many people had given thought to what you were asked to believe and have been indoctrinated with.
Islam is the direct descendent of the christian scriptures and before that, the Torah. We must believe in both. Alot of the rituals and events that we partake in have already come from the christian scriptures (Lent for example is the precurser to Ramadan)
forgive my english and spelling mistakes as it is very late at night and i am exhausted..i hope im making just a little bit of sense now but I shall submit a more cohesive and coherent posting tomorrow
Don't forget that Judaism descended from pagan mysticism over 10,000 years prior.
You can believe it what you want to but don't get so hung up on nothing being before as it is probably not true...
That's an interesting point Ijay. Not only did Judaism descend but for a period of time both polytheism and monotheism were practiced by the same faith at the same time. It was not a flash cut to evolve to monotheism. The concept of monotheism, frankly the largest sea change in faith we have seen, indeed was part of the evolution of human faith and not a given from the beginning.
Who knows where our faith might evolve to in the future. But I will still believe in God, I will believe that others can believe in other God's and still be as faithful as I, and I certainly believe in good and evil.
ijay
There were no people here or anywhere 10,000 years ago, according to the bible.
Adam was created about 8,000 years ago.
Adam and Eve is just a story --- who knows where and how the first human appeared on the earth? Like I've said, I try to live by the lessons the Bible teaches, but I don't take everything in it literally. Whoever wrote the first part of it didn't have any high-tech archeologists to consult with.
Adam's descendant is the cave man on the Geico commercial. LOL
Has anybody out there attended Princeton Seminary?
Would really like to see some scholarly information from someone who considers the Bible important.
Andy Loigu
Yes, Adam and Eve is just a story, as is much of the Bible. It is far easier to believe man evolved from the primordial slime than it is to believe he was created all at once whole from dirt.
I humans were spontaneously created from primordial slime, I am quite shocked we haven't found other life forms in the universe... or they haven't found us. If WE cam from primordial slime, certainly there must be MANY MANY other life forms out there, that developed from -whatever-.... some a lot younger than us, some a lot older than us, some less sophisticated than use, some much more.....
the likelihood that we are the ONLY lifeform in the universe would be preposterous thinking purely scientifically. It would be like the odds on winning the lottery. And, assuming their MUST be other life out there, the odds we haven't encountered them yet would also be pretty incredible
If I were an atheist, fancying myself a "scientist" of sorts, or at least basing all my opinions on scientific thought, I would find it naive at best and ignorant and ridiculous at worst, to believe we are the ONLY life in the universe.
[don't derail into a UFO/ X-files/ they've been here! discussion, lol]
I think eventually we'll find there is primitive life all over the universe, possibly even in our own solar system outside of the Earth.
Here is a theory why we haven’t been visited by anything intelligent yet. It’s a little long but an interesting theory (I think).
http://bigthink.com/videos/will-mankind-destroy-itself
Joe - thanks so much for posting that link. I had no idea Michio Kaku had his own videos with his ideas online. I've loved him for years. Everyone should watch! Sharing this on FB.
Rebecka JR I'll have a friendly debate on this with you. If we are to believe God created everything then what was his purpose of creating the other planets? Other Galaxies? Why did he create them for us? I would find it naive at best, ignorant or ridiculous at worst to think all these other planets and galaxies were formed just for us to gaze upon.
I would think it would make more since to think life couldn't last other planets than to think it God created them for no reason.
Darwin wrote:
"JR I'll have a friendly debate on this with you. If we are to believe God created everything then what was his purpose of creating the other planets? Other Galaxies? Why did he create them for us? I would find it naive at best, ignorant or ridiculous at worst to think all these other planets and galaxies were formed just for us to gaze upon."
Not to mention the FACT that many of the these undetectable without out very advanced technology, and many more probably still remain undectable to us.
JR wrote:
"the likelihood that we are the ONLY lifeform in the universe would be preposterous thinking purely scientifically. It would be like the odds on winning the lottery. And, assuming their MUST be other life out there, the odds we haven't encountered them yet would also be pretty incredible"
I would agree that there is a very good chance that there is life out there somewhere, but in your words, its preposterous to say that the odds of not encountering "them" yet is incredible. The universe is unimaginably vast and relatively speaking, humans have existed for a blip in its history. It is far from surprising that we would yet be unaware of extra terrestrial life.
From my perspective, John 14:2. In My Father’s house are many mansions; if it were not so, I would have told you. I go to prepare a place for you. It could be out there some where
AGAIN- to think WE are the "most advanced" "life form" that "spontaneously created" out of "primordial ooze" is arrogant, to say the least.... far more likely, if that is indeed how we came to be, someone beat us to it.... and is more advanced than us.... by lightyears.... and have developed or are capable of interstellar travel.....
And, AGAIN- I guess we COULD be the "first", and the "most advanced" in the universe, but AGAIN- those odds would be like hitting the lottery.
Hmmm... I didn't say or imply that we were the most advanced species. A swing and a miss... thanks for playing though.
Life would initially have been single-cell organisms.
True though, that we have no idea how organic matter changed into life, as simple as that life was in the beginning.
gadfly.... I guess you're trying to be clever? But I don't know what you're talking about....
My statements stand on their own, they are not specifically in response to you....
Yeah, I was thinking this very thing a few days ago when everyone was arguing about how the universe was created.
My thought was that the creation of the universe is, in my humble opinion, FAR less of a mystery than how life began.
Very well then JR, but your last post sure seemed like a response to me.
In any case... yes, there is no reason to believe that humans would be the most advanced species. However, that does not mean that it is likely that we would be in contact with such a species. There is no reason to believe that it would be probable that a more advance species would have reached us somehow, particularly if that species is many light years away.
It's an old joke -- we've been visited. They just checked the place out and determined, "there's no intelligent life here."
Interesting how we are arguing over beliefs and speculation..when not one person has the actual and complete truth.
This is where God's test in faith comes into play. I'd think to give us the option to make up our own minds solely on different factors without any real proof. Many of the factors would be; life experience, skepticism, optimism, faith, open mindess, closed mindness and lastly hope.
No matter what you believe in or choose not to believe in, Jesus will still unconditionally love you.
You can call me naive if you will, but this is what I believe.
"There is no reason to believe that it would be probable that a more advance species would have reached us somehow, particularly if that species is many light years away."
There's also no reason NOT to believe it. I mean, we're talking science and probability here, right? The probability that we are one of many, and the probability that there are more advanced life forms than us, is higher than the probability that we the the only and /or most advanced. That would be like humankind hitting the cosmic lottery.
I guess my point kind of is, as silly as (some people think) it is to believe God created man (or that God even exists), it's equally as silly- from a purely scientific/logical examination, that humankind hit the cosmic lottery. One of my good friends is a staunch atheist, and considers himself a hobbyist scientist (reads Hawking and such)... and he has always maintained the humans are the ONLY life in the universe, and until he personally witnesses other life, that is the "truth" of the matter. Meaning, the "truth" is only what we KNOW. No probabilities, no likelihoods, just pure facts....
...which brings me back full circle: neither side, science nor religion, has 100% pure facts proving their hypothesis. Both sides have a lot of evidence. But neither side has been proven (I'm sure some of you THINK the science side has been proven, and also believe man-made global warning has been proven...neither has, btw).... both side act on UNKNOWNS to attempt to prove their point, to attempt to understand the greatness of everything. Both sides make advances by using the unknown to keep searching. Heck, some scientists have BECOME Christian while researching the whole thing... if that doesn't throw some doubt into the atheist mindset, IDK what would.... I guess Jesus' second coming, where he's standing right in front of you, would. But religion has never been about proof. It's about faith. Science want to discover proof, but has to use faith to do (not faith in God, but faith is faith nonetheless).
An interesting discussion. Again, I've never seen it as an either/or proposition. Religion and science are not mutually exclusive.
"Religion and science are not mutually exclusive."
that's what i've been contending, they actually work together,
Einstein believed there is a creator after he reduced his equation to e=mc squared.
he said the pure beauty and efficiency of this construct displays a creator's influence. this is another item that demands a verdict . . . . . .
current scientific theory does not conflict with what is relayed in the good book.
this is compelling evidence that demands a verdict . . . . . .
all of us make our individual choices, and all we have to do really, is open the door . . . .
"It was, of course, a lie what you read about my religious convictions, a lie which is being systematically repeated. I do not believe in a personal God and I have never denied this but have expressed it clearly. If something is in me which can be called religious then it is the unbounded admiration for the structure of the world so far as our science can reveal it." Albert Einstein
"The word God is for me nothing more than the expression and product of human weaknesses, the Bible a collection of honourable, but still primitive legends. No interpretation no matter how subtle can (for me) change this. These subtilised interpretations are highly manifold according to their nature and have almost nothing to do with the original text." Albert Einstein
LOL I too looked up ALOT of Einstein quotes on the subject.... and many of them can't be reconciled with each other..... some SEEM to come down on the atheist side, some SEEM to invoke some kind of master intelligence at work.....
In other words, EINSTEIN DIDN'T KNOW EITHER.
Some powerful god, sitting up there rubbing his hands together with a big smirk on his face... yep lets keep them guessing. I wouldn't want to give everyone the gift of knowledge of my existence. That would be too easy. I like being the tyrant, domineering force that expects his sheep to follow aimlessly along without question. Sheesh
Are you sure Satan isn't the creator? Seems more plausible.
Sometimes I can't help but wonder if the people who fall on the atheist side do so "because that's the only side (supposedly) with concrete evidence".... meaning, KNOW-ABLE. To believe in a religion is to have FAITH- which is not proof- in the UNKNOWN. I think some people are very uncomfortable "not knowing" things... they feel the need to always be in control, always be right, and therefore only "believe" in things that have been proven... because the unknown....scares them? Or they lack the confidence/grace/whatever it takes to have a faith in something not proven?
And please, this is not an "attack" of any kind- I'm not AT ALL ridiculing those who don't believe.... I have just always found it fascinating, and wondered why they think the way they do. The atheist side could very easily counter my argument with religious people being "afraid" of the "unknown" and that's precisely WHY we believe in "fairy tales" LOL So don't take it as an attack, it's not.
For ME, I'm not "afraid" of anything.... not afraid of "what happens when I die", not afraid whether or not the "big bang" will somehow be 100% proven or whether Jesus comes back. I just know I'm OK with "not having all the answers".... I no longer feel the need to HAVE the answers, and am much more about SEARCHING for the answers.... without blinders on. Science, God, aliens lol- when you're trying to see the BIG picture, you have to do it without blinders on.
And no, it's not what god intended, it's what the spaghetti monster intended. He does exist you know. Go ahead and prove me wrong. In fact, he is so real, I read about him in a book.
"Are you sure Satan isn't the creator? Seems more plausible."
HA! Based on a lot of humankind's actions, it wouldn't be a stretch...lol
Makes me think of The Screwtape Letters.
Hey, I read The Screwtape Letters by C.S. Lewis back in 1975 --- we've got something in common, bro.
"some SEEM to invoke some kind of master intelligence at work....."
yep to that. that's what i was relaying about Einsteins view on an intelligent design, he alludes to it several times over the course of his career, i didn't mention god or the bible in relation to Einstein as i already knew his views on both of them after reading several of his works. I only communicated that Einstein himself concluded that the beautiful efficiency of how energy works gives one pause to consider an intelligent design. he said it's difficult to conclude that it's all just random.
@Gadfly "My thought was that the creation of the universe is, in my humble opinion, FAR less of a mystery than how life began."
Please share, because clearly you know something the rest of the world doesn't.
Denis Totally agree BD & JR, science and God are intertwined and they are certainly connected. Where did the first atom and molecule come from? I'd think God was behind that. Also, how did evolution, which has immensely helped in the survival of most species come about? It just happened? I think not..it's too ingenious and it took thought process.
Gadfly, If you feel you have some understanding of how the universe was created, then it can only be a faith based belief. That is a question beyond the current ability of human brain or science.
I don't Denis. I think you're making assumptions. I don't find it hard to believe that matter/energy exists and always has existed, and that the universe has been shaped into its current form according to physical laws. I don't profess to understand exactly how that happened, but I don't think it's a stretch of the imagination to believe that it did. Life, on the other hand is much more mysterious. How did life begin? How did organic compounds begin to associate in a system that became the first living organism? That, in my estimation, is the real mystery.
"I don't find it hard to believe that matter/energy exists and always has existed"
See, I find that preposterous. And not because I believe in some God... the concept of "always existed" makes about as much sense as "let there be light".
"always existed" is a very...convenient.... BELIEF (and yes, I am aware that "God" is also a very convenient BELIEF... that's my whole point)
Actually Gadfly whether or not matter and energy has always existed is pure conjecture on your part, and can be neither proved, or disproved. As far as the universe coming into "form according to physical laws", that that has already been disputed by science itself. If you believe in the current big bang theory all laws of physics break down at the moment of inception, or singularity, and what preceded that is beyond comprehension.
Positive, I am just reading your response to me. Did you ever think that it is not a God who gives you strength but rather YOU have it in you all on your own?
That's one of the many problems I have with religions and belief in a god. Not only does it allow people to do heinous things in the name of God and religion, it also removes one's own power. Believe in yourself.all those answers and abilities were always there. Kind of like Dorothy in Oz...
ok - if anyone cares - here is my opinion - if you want to be my brother or sister - ergo deep friendship - great - I accept you - until such time as you prove yourself to be unworthy - then I reserve the right to revoke said kinship - but to the victors who stay the course go the spoils as it were - come to the darkside we have cookies
JR:
"See, I find that preposterous. And not because I believe in some God... the concept of "always existed" makes about as much sense as "let there be light".
So, you think "there was nothing, and than there was something" makes more sense. That is truly preposterous.
Denis, with a little more thought, I think you'll find you're wrong. That the formation of the universe violates the laws of physics as they are understood does not mean that the universe wasn't formed according to physical laws. It just means that we don't yet understand those laws fully enough. So it has been with every physical phenomena throughout history until we figured it out.
"So, you think "there was nothing, and than there was something" makes more sense. That is truly preposterous."
Actually, THAT IS MY POINT. BOTH are nothing but BELIEFS. Neither one makes ANY more sense than the other. The TRUTH isn't known, hasn't been proven. And is probably beyond our comprehension, as Denis said.
That logic is akin to walking into a room, seeing a cat in it and asking, "was this cat here before I walked into the room? Or did appear from nothingness the moment I walked in? I have no proof of either, so they are both simply beliefs that have equal merit. The truth cannot be known."
Gadfly, I don't know if the universe was created "according to physical laws", and neither do you. If you believe that to be true, it's a faith based belief, and not something that can be demonstrated by science. My basic premise is you have no clue, I have no clue. Anyone who thinks they do is relying on faith.
Ok, Denis. You got me. I have a belief in science. You can imply that such a belief is the same as a religious belief, but it isn't.
Great cat analogy Gadfly. Only logical thinkers would understand it.
Suze,
I completely agree. It's like when doctors save lives and the patient sits there and thanks god that they didn't die. How about thanking the science-practicing/believing human being standing in front of you.
I'd say, thank God that doctor knew what he was doing.
So many times I've heard ballplayers, in interviews, thank God for giving them the ability to do what they do. One of the all-time greats, Mike Schmidt, did that.
I followed up with, "does God help guys who can't hit the curve ball?"
Mike laughed and said, "only if they work real hard at it."
Sorry to drop names, but I had press credentials and athletes were more approachable in the 70s than they are now ... different era.
I asked Bill Bradley if he could talk about his interests outside of basketball, since he was a Princeton graduate and Rhodes Scholar ... the first thing he said was political science, but then he said theology. "Theology?"
Paraphrasing him (he talked at some length) he said he "tries to lead a Christian life" and said he received an answer to prayer when he was a homesick student at Princeton who was struggling with his grades. He said he felt overwhelmed with the student athlete experience there and was having a rough time. He asked God to help him and he said he seemed to calm down after that. "I still had to do the work, nobody did it for me," I remember him saying, "but now I felt like I could handle things."
The Views of life from this little simpleton.
The basic search of mankind is survival. Some seek power and possession. Others seek the best route to survival. I am in the second group.
I seek the truth and fact like all others do. You won’t agree in the findings found in the society or the Christian Church. The only thing the church agrees on is you must be baptized to join, as that is what Jesus did when he sought out John the Baptist.
I decided to follow and put my faith in Jesus, as He showed me all the fallacies and short comings of man, as they seek to survive in life. When God came as a man, He showed us what is required to receive his promise. I realized I wanted to accept his challenge and promise of eternal life. Most people agree that Jesus was among us at one time. That’s a good starting point. The Church is where I find like-minded people to gain support in that fellowship. The truth is found in the Bible inspired by God. In believing, I am charged with telling others about his love for us. The Church is an organization that doesn’t agree on everything. Like any other organization. I tell people to find a Bible believing church and learn for yourself.
This is my last post on this thread., Thank you, and may you all find Peace as I have found it. PM me if you wish.
Thank you Jazzykatt, looks like we're on the same page.
Andy, my response to your anecdotes is the same as I gave to Positive. Those people all had that power already. They just used a belief system as a way to bring it to fruition.
I also just want to add something and will leave it there. I saw some posts alluding to the fact that Atheists are angry and I know that is a common misconception. Speaking personally, I am not angry at God because I don't believe there is a god to be angry with. I get angered at people who abuse religion and try to enforce their beliefs on others. I have no problem with people's beliefs unless they prostheletyze or worse demean others based on biblical passages and use that to tell others how to live. I don't need a promise of heaven to behave well. I act kindly because that is how I want to treat people and how I would like to be treated in return. But I am not expecting a reward other than mutual respect from my fellow humans. I could probably write a whole essay on this but I'll leave it there. Be kind to each other.
Suze
I think I'm voting for you to write the Atheist's mission statement. Well said.
Suze I understand what you are saying, but I do have my own strength and I do not rely solely on God. Like I said in one of my posts, he wants us to make our own decisions, sort of like a test to see if we follow the right path. To be honest, there have been many times I went down the wrong path because I was weak and his strength and my will helped me to get back on track.
No one is strong all the time..we all have our moments of weakness and need a little help. Maybe you and others seek help from family and friends, but I choose to seek help from God. My trust in God and of course myself empowers me to overcome many obstacles.
Being a Christian does not in anyway put me on a higher level than a nonbeliever. Choosing not to believe has nothing to do with character, morals, standards and values. Its a choice and a right that everyone is entitled to just like I have the right and choice to believe in God. We should all respect each others choices.
Revelation 3:16
"So, because you are lukewarm--neither hot nor cold--I am about to spit you out of my mouth"
http://biblehub.com/revelation/3-16.htm
So what does that mean - there are about 30 Bible translations on the link - all the same?
What does that mean...imo if your just going to Church & mouthing the words -Jesus is going to vomit you out of his mouth...your better off not going!
Cause his wrath is for the knowers not the sinners... he doesn't care about the sinners = they don't know any better but those who know & don't follow....your done!
imo
Huh. That's interesting RU. And what's god's position on those who take a smug satisfaction in others' damnation?
"And what's god's position on those who take a smug satisfaction in others' damnation?"
Who's doing that? Some of you atheists have a lot of pre-conceived notions about Christians that aren't true, and are also guilty of trying to paint the entire religion and every single person in it as the same- something you often accuse religious people of doing.
There you go again JR trying to play the victim. I have no problem with Christians or Christianity. My comment was directed specifically toward RU's closing statement.
"I get angered at people who abuse religion and try to enforce their beliefs on others."
Who's doing that? Unless you're talking about ridiculous things like "taking the word God out of the pledge of allegiance" and "taking the cross at the 9-11 site in NYC down".... all I see in today's society is the PERSECUTION of Christians' beliefs...
If you want to get into specifics, of REAL issues- like equal rights for gays and abortion- I'll be happy to debate those with you... I'm an Christian, and I am for equal rights- for gays AND unborn babies. I get angered when those who are not believers try to "cleanse" society and culture of all religion.... something that has been with us from the inception of the country.
"Happy Holidays" instead of "Merry Christmas"or other religious holiday greeting
Take the word "God" out of the pledge of allegiance and off of our money
The cross at the 9-11 site is "offensive" to atheists (they lost that one in court)
The constant playing of the nonexistent "separation of church and state" that is NOT in the constitution. The constitution provides freedom OF religion, not freedom FROM religion (the atheists are trying hard to make it the latter)
We could go round and round on "who is trying to force their views on others".... but not ALL Christians feel that way- as not ALL atheists feel that way.
JR says "The constitution provides freedom OF religion, not freedom FROM religion (the atheists are trying hard to make it the latter)"
But that's not really what the Constitution says or provides. You should go back and review the wording again. The Free Exercise Clause of the First Amendment gives us the right to worship OR NOT as we choose. The courts say this is true - so you don't have to believe my interpretation. The government can't penalize us because of our religious beliefs - and that includes we atheists. Of course the theory and practice leave some room for improvement.
But there is some hope for the U.S. The trend for the last decade or two is that the country is slowly becoming less religious. Since even everyone's favorite Fox News reports this it must be true (put smiley face here).
RAD, we are not in disagreement on what it says. Worship AS YOU CHOOSE, or not. But it does NOT say others can infringe your worshipping...... that was one of the POINTS of founding a new country.
"But it does NOT say others can infringe your worshipping."
I think you miss the fine points, The Constitution is about what the GOVERNMENT can do regarding establishment and support of religion. Who are these others of whom you speak? What are these "others" doing to infringe on your chosen way to worship that bothers you?
"The Constitution is about what the GOVERNMENT can do regarding establishment and support of religion."
I think YOU missed the point... the constitution is a list of RESTRICTIONS ON GOVERNMENT- things they CANNOT do to us. They cannot establish a state religion, and they cannot infringe the free practice of religion.
Don't mind me, I'm just checking out how the debate is going...........
yep!, I was right ,still no progress......
I'm with Old Gent, no need for further posts, but I will leave you with this quote for the younger viewers.
"What you don't know, now you know-BROTHER"
(Biggie Smalls)
Have a great day! :)
For those who believe atheism is a religion, isn’t having “God” in the pledge of allegiance and on money favoring one religion or groups of religions over another?
I think God is LMAO reading this thread right now.
He appeared to us in the body of George Burns in a movie with John Denver. "Not what you expected, huh?"
He said, "I don't do miracles anymore, too flashy. My last miracle was the 1969 Mets."
Has anyone heard of Zarepath Church in Somerset County (they have their own radio station)? It's a Nondenominational church that I went to several times and I must say that I left feeling uplifted...much more than I can say about many of the other churches I have attended.
I have heard of it and used to listen to it on the radio at times when I used to live in Branchburg..
positive - What ever works for you. Uplifting is a requirement or it's not right no matter what anyone else who knows better thinks. No one has a right to say you can't any more than anyone has a right to say you have to. Way too many "this is good, *everyone* has to do this".
Andy - Sly movie. Also a funny comment about the avocado. A more serious
comment about televangelists and people who aren't sincere no matter how
much they claim they are.
Hot corner - "debate". What debate? There are no debates here. This is nothing short of a shouting down others match. Even if there was a debate, it's religion. It's not a matter of yes/no which is why I previously commented about confusing science/relgion, thought/faith. No need.
JR - That's only the Bill of Rights. The whole Constitution goes over the form and framework of government, the offices, and rights and responsibilities. There are enumerated and unenumerated powers. And a couple of dozen amendments some of which are restrictions, others are procedures or even restrictions on the populace. (as in Prohibition) Clearly not just what the restrictions are.
And remember, there are issues of cross-infringement possible. So while the government cannot infringe on religious observance, it doesn't mean someone's religion can require killing others and have that be protected. Freedom, unless it somehow impinges on someone else's rights. This is the same principle often cited about yelling 'fire' in a theater.
As far as persecution goes, you're yet another victim of the world and 'Right' instead of being intolerant. One person's persecution is another's infringing on the right to not practice religion.
Not surprised by the boredom. From the French phrase "plus ce change, plus ces le meme chose". The more it changes, the more it stays the same. Imagine what the discussion looks like to a Jain, a Buddhist, or a Zoroastrian.
So this is the way it's going to go after the gay marriage decision comes down from the from the corrupt Supreme Court this summer. So they approve Gay Marriage - well your local priest on the corner has a gay couple come in and say we want you to marry us & he says well that's against my religious beliefs and they say fine we will take you to court & the local judge says it's the law of the land you have to marry them or you go to jail.
So where is the separation of Church & State there....lol
It's Nazi Germany all over again.
Peace
GC maybe many posters find this thread boring and repetitive, but I find it interesting and informative. It's a matter of personal choice, which may be the moral of this thread...personal choice.
"Huh. That's interesting RU. And what's god's position on those who take a smug satisfaction in others' damnation?"
I have no idea it's Gods word...go ask Joel Osteen - is Joel teaching Revelation these days or any preacher? lol
Of course not...
RU I agree with you when it comes to religion and politics, but it has to do with religious sects and churches. Not the entire Christian belief. There is a significant difference...
Been away a few days, in response to Gadfly " I have a belief in science" I didn't say it's the same as a religious point of view, only similar in that it is faith based. I don't know how many ways to phrase it, there is no scientific explanation, or anything close to it for the creation of the universe. Any idea you have for the creation of the universe is faith based, because there is no scientific idea for the creation of the universe, not even a reasonable hypothesis since all know scientific laws break down at the origin of the big bang, or singularity, before that is way beyond the ability of humans to comprehend. To say you have a belief in something that cant be explained, tested or proved is purely faith based, it's not science. You might think science will someday figure it out, but again faith since there is nothing on the horizon to indicate that in this lifetime.
You think if gay marriage becomes legal, churches will be forced to perform gay marriage or face jail? That is simply not true.
MB, you might want to google that one. I don't know if it has happened yet but it most certainly has been threatened.
positive, agreed, Zerapath does a good job, good stuff there,
attached pic, how does God make good use of people who are flawed?
many messages come to us in many creative ways,
have a happy sunday everybody !
have you 'Carpaied your Diem' yet today? (i saw this on mike&molly, thought it was a good one, pls check my spelling on it?)
there is still time to make it a great day, take the reins, make it happen! "Carpaie your Diem' !!
JIT wrote:
"MB, you might want to google that one. I don't know if it has happened yet but it most certainly has been threatened."
I think it's mostly been threatened by opponents of gay marriage as a scare tactic. I'd like to hear of any actual examples of this happening in the U.S.
Don't know if this has been posted yet, but it's pretty interesting...
Science discovers God
https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=eQVm8RokoBA
"If the whole universe has no meaning, we should never have found out that it has no meaning: just as, if there were no light in the universe and therefore no creatures with eyes, we should never know it was dark. Dark would be without meaning."
~C.S. Lewis
"The greatest single cause of atheism in the world today is Christians, who acknowledge Jesus with their lips, walk out the door, and deny Him by their lifestyle. That is what an unbelieving world simply finds unbelievable."
~Brennan Manning
On TV, almost 50 years ago, I heard Ali say, "I'd be a Christian, if it wasn't for Christians."
Fortunately, I've known some people who set a good example of what it means to be a Christian, the most recent being Frank Fowler in Hackettstown.
I agree, Andy....Reverend Fowler is my Hero and also my Pastor at Trinity United Methodist Church . He not only preaches the good word on Sunday mornings but lives what he preaches 365 days of the year.
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