Hack S.D. another example of high wages with less return

what are these teachers thinking? how can they ask for more money? teachers should just be glad they have a job. they should just do whatever is asked of them, and accept whatever is paid. (insert sarcasm emoticon)

really, you have an issue with employees asking for more money? do you regularly go to your boss and say, "hey, i think you should pay me less so the widgets i make can be cheaper to the end customer"? no, of course not.

if no sympathy, have some empathy.

ken e
Apr '15

And now we know there is a teacher in brown bear's immediate family.

fact not fiction
Apr '15

I think it's funny how people see no problem with "going to their boss and asking for more money" (because apparently they think they deserve/earn it), but whenever a contractor comes to their house they are always asking/looking for a "deal"/"discount"....

...does that mean those people think contractors are making TOO MUCH MONEY? Are they the same people who who go to their boss and ask for more because they are thinking they aren't making ENOUGH?

JeffersonRepub ✉
Apr '15

There's too many crappy teachers in schools because of tenure. I've heard my son and his friends complain about certain teachers at the High School.

Metsman ✉
Apr '15

"but a few bad apples apparently ruin the whole batch. "

But isn't that the truth with everything?

JeffersonRepub ✉
Apr '15

"The few bad apples only ruin the batch if they are not properly dealt with.......point fingers at the right people."


Might I suggest the teacher's start doing that with their own union? I have teacher friends who are realizing the teacher's union is not necessarily in the best interest of the teachers, and certainly isn't in the best interest of the kids.

JeffersonRepub ✉
Apr '15

I have several friends that are "in fact "teachers, both in public and private shools, some have been teaching for 20 yrs + and the comments I have made were "in fact " made by them !
Just because "someone's wife" is a teacher ( not taking anything away from them or her ) , does not have anything to do with a teacher working 5.2 hours vs a contractor working 10 + and being asked to provide a discount.
Darrin , you seem to be focused on banterring with everyone that speaks on this forum.
Are you the designated moderator and I am not aware of this ?
This is a "PUBLIC FORUM for people to express their opinions.
WHO ARE YOU to tell me I make $$-hole comments ?!???
Special Education was not mentioned , suggested or otherwise spoken., so for you to make statements involving special education, just confirms your tendencies to distort the subject and sway it your way, always having to say something to jab at someone , then to come back and say "not me...you did not understand me" ..
You sir, make me very tired....and for the record, to use one of your lines " read the post , my comment was specifically addressed to "JR"...could you not see that ! ??

Steven ✉
Apr '15

So it sounds more like you friends are the problem teachers. Your post of "and bitch about that" was VERY offensive, and not appreciated, because there is plenty of teachers that do their job.

oh jesus, here we go again with your bantering crap......can't you just stay on topic?

I stopped reading your crap fyi

Darrin ✉
Apr '15

fyi, the only thing I said about special education was what my wife received her degree in, yet that constitutes.........

"Special Education was not mentioned , suggested or otherwise spoken., so for you to make statements involving special education, just confirms your tendencies to distort the subject and sway it your way, always having to say something to jab at someone , then to come back and say "not me...you did not understand me" .."

you sir have serious problems, I am beginning to think this is a joke, at least I hope it is.

Darrin ✉
Apr '15

Not for you meant for metsman

Brown bear familia ✉
Apr '15

picture if you will - a thread... about to enter another dimension, a dimension not only of sight and sound but of mind. A journey into a wondrous land of imagination. Next stop, the Twilight Zone!

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-b5aW08ivHU

skippy ✉
Apr '15

Matt Dillon in There's Something about Mary " Those goofy bastards are about the best thing I've got going " .... When will we get tenure at our jobs outside the trippy, stoned world that is education - drug testing the students but not the teachers ...... When ?

fact not fiction
Apr '15

LOL Skippy and Embryodad!

I see Darrin is at it again!

Teenie
Apr '15

You could not pay me enough to be a teacher and yes I know a couple they work a lot longer days than I ever did and I own my own company. Teachers have to put up with your rotten kids they may be Angels at home but once the parents aren't around and their friends are and become totally different the biggest complainers about teachers are parents that use the school as a day care center most parents do not get involved with teachers or schools unless there's a problem and when there is a problem it's never there kids fault it's always the teachers or the school's

oldred
Apr '15

If teaching is such an easy high paying job why don't you become a teacher?

droptine ✉
Apr '15

Steven, I will answer a few of your questions since you are so distraught, but after this I am no longer engaging in your absolute ridiculous childish antics, it's only you that acts this way, so stop trying to blame others.

@steven "what right do you think you have to make your statements ?"

To answer I will use words from your mouth "This is a "PUBLIC FORUM for people to express their opinions." You offended ME and I have every right to tell you so.

@steven "I was on topic, you decided to go off when you attacked me."

You might want to re-read what happened, I clearly explained what a day of teaching work entails based off of someone I know very closely, I called you out for making a extreamly RUDE comment, and then you derailed topic crying about what I said. My post was VERY on topic considering that asinine statement you made, which I have every right to defend. If your comment was just for JR, maybe you should of pm'd him, because again....public forum, you are not just talking to one person.

You seem to have serious anger issues, and have a very hard time talking like an adult. This is proven very easily by my post above, that all I said was what my wife received a degree in and you went off the deep end claiming I was bringing special education into this. You need to fully comprehend what someone is saying before vomiting the first thing that comes to mind on this forum.

@steven "How are the friends of mine that are teacher's , problem teacher's ?"

Because you said that comment was made by them, if they are only putting in 5 hours of work (since you said they made that comment) yet other teachers are practically devoting all their time, maybe they are the teachers you should be pointing fingers at. This was based off what you said.

@steven "What right do you believe you have to speak of persons in that manner, when you know nothing of them ? "

And what right to do have to say that teachers bitch about working 5 hours, are you a teacher? do you know personally know what it takes? You made a rude comment and got called out for it, don't try to drag other "personal" issues you may have with me into the topic. If you have a issue, talk to me personally about it, and stop wasting other peoples time with you bantering crap. (all while saying I am the one bantering)

You seem to somehow know me, you don't know me, I can assure you of that, if you would like to meet sometime, I would love to.

Darrin ✉
Apr '15

Darrin states, " then you derailed topic crying about what I said. My post was VERY on topic considering that asinine statement you made, which I have every right to defend. If you have a issue, talk to me personally about it, and stop wasting other peoples time with you bantering crap."

Take your own advice please! This statement has crying which you do (go back on other threads and read them) and name calling (yes asinine is not nice). I see you bantering a lot on this forum. (look at all the CVS threads) I think you have the NIMBY syndrome on that issue.

Thank God you left the conversation. We will have peace on this issue.

BTW most people feel that there are good teachers and bad teachers as I do. I had some great teachers and some really bad teachers that were there only because of tenure. Those teachers either gave up or started out bad. I don't know which one but they should not be teachers. Luckily most of them are retired now but something tells me more have been replaced.

Teenie
Apr '15

What grades do they teach heidi? Maybe that has something to do with it.

My wife writes all her own lesson plans.

I will say for the time she puts in she is well deserving of getting the summer off!

It seems there is a big difference between teachers for whatever reason, i think we need to get to the bottom of that.

Maybe it is that what i am seeing is what a special education teacher has to go through, and other teachers just reuse the same plans and tests.

There is one thing that was said that i cannot agree with more and that is about some kids having a lack of respect. Some parents just send their kids off to school and expect teachers to do the parenting for them.

Darrin ✉
Apr '15

from my personal experience with teachers i find the main issue that rubs some of us the wrong way is they seem to have no sense of reality

Case in point, i had one of my clients come in, she just retired from teaching after 30yrs and started complaining about her property taxes were to high. This is a person who lives in a $900k house, and is now getting an $80k/yr pension from the state. Where does she think that pension $ comes from??

So she was complaining that she had to retire before Christie touched her pension but than complained that her property taxes were too high.... ugh my tongue was bleeding i was bitting it to hard.

again these are just my experiences from my clients, friends and family members that are teachers. they just don't get it and never want to have a logical conversation.

darwin ✉
Apr '15

You do have a very good point jazzycat, but i am not exagerating when i talk about the time she puts in. She really does put her heart and soul into it. That's why i find so much offence when people just openly bash all teachers, it is not fair to do that, they deserve credit.

Darrin ✉
Apr '15

Getting out at 3:00 o'clock in the afternoon,getting all the snow days off, plus holidays off, plus the summer off,and still complaining?Try sitting up on route 80 in the morning,driving in the snow! Nice pensions,full medical,now lets add the Police Department,the town employees,the county employees,the state employees! Tell me how we can afford all this?If a child gets out of hand, send them to the office,if we are at work, and you have a problem coworker, oh well deal with it! Please add up the summers off, the snow days, the holidays, the conventions,and figure out how many months a year the teachers work?

LoBo ✉
Apr '15

I am still amazed with the assumptions on here...full medical???

that is because changes were made to the newer hires. Those grandfathered in to the old ways are still getting full medical.

so yes if you are a new teacher now the benefits are not a grand as they once were. Thank God!

darwin ✉
Apr '15

I am still amazed with the assumptions on here...full medical??? Um, no.... christie (i believe) took that away a while ago.

"The whole summer off" as many of you keep saying is two months. Most of which teachers are worrying if they will get hired the next year or looking for jobs. And many teachers choose to work summer program over the summer.

Darrin ✉
Apr '15

"that is because changes were made to the newer hires. Those grandfathered in to the old ways are still getting full medical."

So then why are people bringing it to the table if it is something that has already been fixed? It seems like what people are basing their opinions off of is outdated info?

Darrin ✉
Apr '15

"Most of which teachers are worrying if they will get hired the next year or looking for jobs. "

not the tentured ones. Again you're just looking at it as a husband of a new teacher. Not as a taxpayer of the thousands of teacher that came before your wife.

darwin ✉
Apr '15

My point is not all teachers are bad, please don't lump "all" teachers into one bad category, these are the people who care for our children when we cannot.

What do you consider fixed darwin then? When teachers pay more then everyone else? As you said it is now level with everyone else, and of course they would be upset about something being there and then taken away.

Darrin ✉
Apr '15

Tenure has already been practically cut in half, what are teachers not suppose to have any job security like the rest of us?

Darrin ✉
Apr '15

I don't have tenure. I can be fired for any reason. What makes a teacher so special that they can do whatever and be protected because of tenure... We live in a "what have you done for me lately" society. Teachers should be placed under the same microscope the rest of us have to deal with day in and day out.

Metsman ✉
Apr '15

I am a teacher (well I was working as one until I got let go because I was up for tenure and we had a new superintendent and no I don't necessarily agree w/tenure or the whole process). I originally majored in architecture, so going into this field was not what I had planned, but things happen for a reason.

The district I worked in previously, I was there 30 minutes before I was supposed to be at least and when other teachers were leaving at 3:38 on the dot, I was there until 6:30 Monday-Friday. The amount of grading I had to do was quite a lot: from research papers, essay's, projects, etc. for 100 students. Add planning on top of that for each week (Keep in mind I had to plan for gen ed, special ed, basic skills, and my honors class) PLUS any planning/organizing for extracurricular organizations I was a part of PLUS my tutoring group PLUS going to the sporting events to support my students...well that left me very little down time. Also, I worked every single summer even though I had "off." There were teachers who didn't work in the summer, but either their spouse made more than enough or it's called *shock* they SAVED UP. Plus some districts do pay over the summer and the teachers just get less during the year. I just know very few teachers who didn't do some type of work over the summer.

With that, I knew many teachers who worked their butt's off, whether they did all of the work in school or brought it home to work on. There were teachers who truly went above and beyond each day. Then you had the extremely lazy teachers (a good portion tenured) who did whatever they wanted, came in wearing flip-flops, showed up late, left as soon as the students did, and did the same lessons/units every single year without any change. I knew one teacher who spent a good majority of the time on his iPad going on facebook, youtube, etc., copied lesson plans off of his coworker, and yet the administration thought he was "wonderful" and gave him an excellent evaluation score because he put on a wonderful show during his observation.

Am I pissed off I was let go when they kept a teacher who parents complained about 24/7, did nothing, and didn't even teach (just handed papers out)?? YES! I know I worked hard, my students worked their butts off, did well on testing (which of course is the #1 priority in every district..ugh!), and learned something new each week that they were proud of or caused them to be more interested in learning more about.

Teachers do have some nice "perks" such as summers off, the ability to leave around 3ish, holidays off. I can also say during those times I myself rarely had off because I was doing planning or grading. Not all teachers have this free time that everyone keeps making them out to have. Keep in mind (because I noticed this mentioned) teachers do pay into healthcare and quite a lot. I paid more for healthcare as a teacher than I did in my previous job working for a large Fortune 500 company.

Please do not downplay how difficult and how much work teaching can be. There are teachers who ruin it for the majority by doing nothing, lack of enthusiasm, doing the minimal amount of work, etc.Even before I got into this profession, I thought teachers worked 8-3 and went home and enjoyed downtime. However, I know first-hand now that teaching isn't easy, the amount of hours I worked well-exceeded what I was being paid, the stress of evaluations, parents, state testing, etc. is just as equal to the stresses of the private sector world . I also know people in the private sector world that did the minimal amount of work, took full advantage of their sick/vacation/PTO days, etc. As someone else said earlier, if teaching was such an easy job with these amazing perks, such as summers off, snow days, pension, healthcare, and the ability to leave work at 3, then why didn't you go into this field?

Sorry this is so long!

sunshinenj ✉
Apr '15

wow oldred i see your ate your wheaties and took your meds today good for you i would hate for you to miss out on typing another two paragraph diatribe in one long run on sentence without punctuation i mean really is that how they taught you to write in school if so maybe your teachers were bad apples that didn't deserve a raise since they apparently didn't a proper job teaching you

As far as my "anti-union diatribe", I actually come from a union family, so I have seen both sides- the good and the bad- with unions. It's a two-way street. Unions are a necessary evil. But they do, eventually, turn evil... as the power pendulum swings from one side to the other. I'm for right to work. I'm pro-union BUT- if you're going to be a union, and then price yourself out of business, don't blame the consumers for not wanting to pay more for your bloated pensions and whatnot. You want to be in a union? You take the good with bad. You want to be non-union? You take the good with the bad. In short, you sleep in the bed YOU made- you suffer the consequences of YOUR decisions.

WalMart decides to close some stores rather than allow their employees to unionize? Oh well- that's their perogative. Their stores, their perogative.. Actions have consequences. The problem with unions connected to government in the way the teacher's union is, corruption is two-fold that of other unions, because the public coffers have so much (potential) for raiding (just keep raising taxes, that's all)

JeffersonRepub ✉
Apr '15

Yeah, why do teachers get job security, Why do they get pensions, health care and summer off. They should be like the rest of us. Matter of fact, I say we find the last guy and we all sink to his level. Now that's America, socialism at the lower common denominator.

They get tenure, pensions, health care, etc. because they fought for it; what's your problem.

I think we can argue the specific issue of a tax-supported moderator being needed to negotiate the settlement for a requested 22 minutes of time which still puts our teachers below the regional average, but as to the rest ----- give me a break. Why do you lament what you have lost and someone else sustained.

And to you small business owners ---- man, if we started picking at your perk scabs, we'd get a gusher of bene's. It's not all nose to the grindstone.

mistergoogle ✉
Apr '15

"Every year teachers who are not tenure are basically fired and rehired."

How so? Is this somehow contractual?

justintime ✉
Apr '15

I don't know what you're talking about Darrin. Anyone can be hired and fired, and anyone's business can fail, at any time. It happens EVERY DAY. There is very little "job security" in this world.... and teachers have no more "right" to it than anyone else does.

I wish your wife luck in her chosen career, but it's not a good or stable profession to be entering right now, or so it seems.... lots of unrest and turmoil in public education right now.

And, just for a little perspective: I own my own small business. As owner, I am NOT ELIGIBLE for unemployment insurance, even tho I pay into it. (my employees are, I, as owner, am not). Not only do I not have job security, but if my business fails, I don't have NO JOB security.....I can't go on UI like most people can..... I also don't have the summers off, fwiw.

JeffersonRepub ✉
Apr '15

Darrin - the fire/hire cycle is a scam unto itself as it allows those affected to further suck off the public teat by drawing unemployment during those two months between "jobs".

r-man
Apr '15

Mister Google you crack me up...

Metsman ✉
Apr '15

Jazzykat, if you own a business, you're rich. Everyone knows that. And the rich don't pay their "fair share". Everyone knows that. YOU are part of the problem. ;)

JeffersonRepub ✉
Apr '15

Darrin,

Teachers get paid for summer during the regular work season. If a teacher loses their job, they ARE eligible for unemployment.

JeffersonRepub ✉
Apr '15

Don't get me wrong, I am not saying being in small business is not tough. Heck, the tax laws and regulations should be enough to scare anyone off. But it's not all gloom n doom either. Sure, you work hard but don't tell me your risks are that much greater than that of those who work for others, including teachers. And the potential rewards are quite a bit higher.

And Jazzy, no, I have owned small businesses, I started in small business, my clients have been small business, but I also worked the Fortune 100 at a P&L management position where I owned a business within the business. At first I was going to go example by example but suffice it to say I have gone through all that you have, and much, much, more, while working for others. And much of it, like the downturns, were on a much larger scale.

mistergoogle ✉
Apr '15

Cry me a river Darrin... I have a friend who is a teacher and he works at a summer camp when school is out. I don't hear him bitching and moaning...

Metsman ✉
Apr '15

"Teachers on the other hand don't know if they will either be fired or rehired every year, that's the extent of their job security."

Again, is this a contractual thing, a condition of employment? Teachers have one-year contracts? I've never heard of this. Can you explain further.

If true, I could understand a little better the position you take.

justintime ✉
Apr '15

If so many of you have all the answers and know so much about teaching in a public school, I am wondering why you didn't choose to matriculate in education in college and become a teacher with your Bachelor of Arts or Science degree. I am sure you have a Bachelor of Arts or Science degree in some field of study since you have so much to say on the topic of a profession that requires one.

If all of this knowledge about the profession of teaching has been just a recent acquisition after you already had your Bachelor's degree in another area, I am then sure from the obvious amount of educational knowlege on this thread, that you went to graduate school for a post-graduate degree in education, which many teaching positions require. I am wondering why then, I infer from the vitriol about teachers in these posts, that you all haven't used your post-graduate degree of Master of Education and become a teacher, so that you could have first hand accounts of the profession and not just outside observations. It certainly reads as if you all could do a better job than anyone that you know.

Finally, it seems to me that many commentors about teachers actually need to take a look at the bonus structures of administrators in their Board of Education. If you are going to have a thread about High Wages and Less Return in any school district, then you better also comment about who is running the school district as a whole.

Georgea ✉
Apr '15

wow oldred i don't know what to say other than you don't know me and there are some on this forum who actually DO and have actually met me and had dealings with me and they could tell you you do not know me but thats ok i understand you're a bitter old man with blinders on the stereotypical senior citizen liberal the govt should take care of me mindset well I'm sure its no surprise to you that i am more of an independent thinker i don't want govt taking care of me or doing my thinking for me and i sure as hell don't think i have a right to some of this stuff you people seem to think you have a right to even tho its not in the constitution also apparently you don't actually read my posts as i said there are 2 sides to every story i come from a union family and i have teachers in my own family so i have seen both sides


(my apologies to the forum readers, I know it's difficult to read: but I feel in order to get thru to oldred, I must speak his language.)

JeffersonRepub ✉
Apr '15

"There are plenty of upper-management people who make bank, these are the people you should be concerned with, not the teachers who are just trying to ear a living while doing what they love."


There is a lot of truth to that- which brings us back to the UNION. The only way the union can be made to behave is the teachers standing up and fighting back. I know it may seem counterintuitive to bite the hand that feeds you, but when that hand has pissed off a large part of the populace... and used teachers to do it, what kind of blowback did you expect? The teachers union is a bloated corrupt monstrosity that needs to be severely reined in.... and the only people that can do it, are the teachers. They need to police themselves.... and their union.

JeffersonRepub ✉
Apr '15

Poor teachers LOL! Your total compensation is excessive compared to the private sector PERIOD. This excessive total compensation is ENABLED by your UNIONS.

Stop insulting the intelligence of everyone on this forum...

iJay ✉
Apr '15

Years ago the medical insurance was about 22,000 for family coverage and the taxpayers paid the entire amount. Now the teachers pay a percentage of the premium. The union fought this for years and it didn't change until the state got involved. GM had a contract that allowed teachers who had insurance through another source to be paid 35% of the premium. I remember spouses that worked for the district . One would take the insurance, the other would take the money. I don't know if this is still in the contract.

Indy2 ✉
Apr '15

My point was I find the irony when teachers say they have to spend time at home grading papers and creating lesson plans but then think they should get a raised to be "forced" to stay at school longer then they are asked now.

Darwin ✉
Apr '15

What a great idea !
So for those that say teachers have to take work home or work over the weekends to get their lesson plans done, why would you oppose it be required for all teachers to work a full 8hrs in the school each day? Simple fix all teachers have to work a full 8hrs at school. Gives them plenty of time to get all their work done at their work and then they have all their nights and weekends free.

They could even have the potential of "being offered overtime", for more than 40 hours,as the majority of the world lives.
The entire sytem is antiquated and needs to be restructured and brought under control.
Taxes are out of control and the burden continues with no accountability in sight .

Steven ✉
Apr '15

"They could even have the potential of "being offered overtime", for more than 40 hours,as the majority of the world lives."

if you want to offer teachers overtime, I am 100% for it, (but I am biased) but I dont think that is going to better the cost side of things. Also like I said, for some teachers just 1.5 hours is not enough to do what they need to do, yes my wife teaches special education children, and yes that takes a whole different level of teaching, but she spends way more then 8 hours a week of her own time doing stuff for her class, like I said, some teachers.

Just remember that the longer teachers are required to stay means the longer the heat and lights stay on, as well as other faculty has to stay. I would suspect any union to fight for their members if the controversy was work more time for the same money....thats just what unions do, if you are a teacher or work at shoprite....all unions would fight the same thing

also darwin, there is really no irony in it. Right now teachers can get home the same time as their kids get home, even if it means bringing work home with them, but if you change that, this takes this away, and more familys will need to invest in after care

Darrin ✉
Apr '15

I have a very good friend that retired as a social worker ....she never received tenure.

My neice is a certified trauma nurse in an inner city hospital, impacting and saving lives every day, working 10 and 12 + hours every day.....she does not have tenure offered to her .

The entire educational sytem is fragmented and far, far, far & away from reality and accountability .
Schools have become day care centers for people that choose to have children,without thinking , then realize how expensive things are, they actually do not have the economic means to afford the McMAnsions they feel entitled to live in, their monster suv's and they push to have Johnny & Mary compete in every known sport until they have no time remaining to actually be children...and let's not forget , they all must have cell phones ( not just basic with capability to call 911, but full blown ,latest and greatest, droids, I phone 6, etc.)..Instead of "all the accessories", they feel they have to have, restructure the tax base that parents actually pay taxes based on children / household....what ever happened to self sacrifice ???

Steven ✉
Apr '15

+1 for swimwitdafishes, however it's 10% MORE that what you estimated at 22 minutes, not 20. Apparently every minute counts, bring on the taxpayer funded moderators. That's the issue at hand, the rest is just the normal bashing and envy. We have done the math on this before in other teacher bashing threads and I think the bottom line comes out that teaches are getting a pretty solid deal today with some great benefits so if they live long, they prosper. But we have also shown that it wasn't always that way and the teacher's packages have not grown dramatically as of late.

But let's sum up the arguments keeping it HL simple.

On one side:

"Poor teachers LOL! Your total compensation is excessive compared to the private sector PERIOD. This excessive total compensation is ENABLED by your UNIONS. Stop insulting the intelligence of everyone on this forum..."

On the other side:

Not insulting your intelligence, it is what it is, but as I said, yes envious one, teachers get a pretty solid deal today. However, it isn't that their packages have gotten bigger, it is that your packages have gotten smaller. Yes, their Unions have lobbied well, and done their job protecting their constituency. Meanwhile you, the private sector employee, have capitulated at every turn backing down on salaries and benefits at every decision point shrinking your salary package over time.

To crap on those who lobbied well because you suck pondwater and today continue to imbibe from the muddy part of the pond may make you feel better but still does not solve the real problem of your salary and benefit shortfalls. Lowering the pond will not get you better pondwater.

I do feel we should look at how we spend money on education but doubt that trimming teacher salary packages will give us the results we need. Heck, you'd do better focusing on admin. What we need to make the system more efficient and effective is real reformation on the very structure of how we educate our kids to succeed as well in the future as we have succeeded under the current system in the past.

Bemoaning the size other guy's salary package hoping for comparative shrinkage because your package is already small and still shrinking won't get you the bigger salary package which I am guessing is really what you want and need. Package envy is just not a profitable use of your time.

mistergoogle ✉
Apr '15

Darrin,
I am not blaming the teachers or the parents.
The entire system needs to be re-aligned .
Here is a perfect example I am sure most can relate to;
If your child starts to drive, there is accountability , ie ; Higher insurance rates due to the risk and reality they are likely to be involved in an accident , resulting in the insurance company having to "pay out" .
So why is there not a higher "tax base" assigned to the same household that chooses to put additional burden on the educational system having multiple children ?

My son ( and many others ) struggle in this economy to pay their student loans off.... I can only assist minimally, as I am obligated to "pay for others children".

I understand we need to educate our children, but why is parenting one of the few places that persons are held fully accountable ?
If they were, I can assure you , they would be at each and everyone of the board ed meetings demanding all they could get for what they would be paying for ....currently, they have no interest in most of it due to it not having any additional monetary impact on them.They are quite content to compalin that their child would never do anything wrong and they are entitled to everything.
No one is demanding accountability
Why do all the schools have to have different signage ? ( standardize and make the names changeable ) ..modular signage...what a concept !
Why aren't solar panels on every school in the state ? ( again standardized packages ) ..how much monies would that generate / save ?
Same with school buses, why are they provided by some towns, but not others ?
Why is there not a "standard " vendor approved bus used state wide ?
( this would minimize inventory for repairs and maintenance, so of course it will never happen...far too logical )
----> The system is broken and needs to be re-structured <----
The school sytem should have the districts dismantled, there is no value in having multiple heads for different counties, purely wasted monies.
Teachers "and" their superior's , should get a standardized pay grade rate, based on performance ratings ( just like the real world ) if ratings are not maintained, pay reduction , with a written warning, after two incidents, mandatory suspension, reinstatement after retesting and not before.
( this is the "real world " for all others ). If my performance was not maintained to standards, I expected consequence's .
We are far too easy and accomodating today, always needing to be "politically correct " so as not to offend anyone....What ever happened to just doing your job and being grateful to have one ?

Steven ✉
Apr '15

"Why do people with no children have to pay school taxes?"

You're looking at it the wrong way. You aren't paying school taxes for your children to go to school; you're paying school taxes because YOU went to school and other people paid for your public school education. Now you're paying that forward, irrespective of whether you have children or not.

ianimal ✉
Apr '15

+1000 ianimal how do people not get that?

darwin ✉
Apr '15

I worked the last ten years of my working life in a University. Believe me, the business model of education is nothing at all like the real world. Thank goodness they are a non profit organizations. I loved my time there since I felt I had something to give the students. I put many extra hours with out re numeration, because the job had to be done and they were paying for it. I was non union. Thats the difference. A union would frown on that. I see one of the things hampering public schools is that so many directives are given by politicians from Trenton and Washington that take up education time since they hold the purse strings now. It used to be the superintendent had the last word on lesson plans locally. Things went fairly well. He /she knew the local needs better and took that into account.

Old Gent ✉
Apr '15

+1 ianimal. Sometimes people can't see much past their front step.

MeisterNJ ✉
Apr '15

"How about the parents start paying for all the sports programs..."

Did you not have sports and other extra-curricular activities offered to you when you went to high school? High school sports have been around for well over 100 years in most parts of the country. Where did you grow up?

ianimal ✉
Apr '15

As I read here alot but comment rarely, I must say that as someone who rarely agrees with MGoogle-I think you are spot on and could not agree more with the above post. Kudos and absolutely in agreement. +10000

tired of it all
Apr '15

@darwin "the heat and lights are on well after the kids leave for the day. Janitors need heat too Darrin."

@steven "Regarding heat and lights, the school does not go dark at 3:00 or 3:30, and the heat is not shut off...it may be turned down ( which should be a state wide mandate as well to save energy )"

Guys, I do building controls for a living, we control heat and lights for many schools, colleges, office buildings, data centers...etc. Heat is dropped (at the schools discretion, not all schools are the same) but usually when teachers leave, (on our system) it drops from 70-74 degrees to 60-85 degrees. again, on our system, we have what is called a override button, so when janitors go into clean a room, they hit the button, and just that room gets the necessary air treatment, not the whole school.

Lights also go into a min required lighting state.

@darwin "And its not more work for the same pay, you already admitted to that. You said your wife works longer hours to get her work done. So now she would just do that work at her office instead of at home. So same work for same pay :)"

You missed my message, "Right now teachers can get home the same time as their kids get home, even if it means bringing work home with them, but if you change that, this takes this away, and more familys will need to invest in after care" So yes you are taking from them.

Darrin ✉
Apr '15

I also agree with MG, we should spend more on education. It should be a higher priority in society, and no I have no relatives in education and when I went to school I hated it, so I'm not biased.

brown bear
Apr '15

Oh, it is very easy to change, that's not what I was saying though. I was saying that it will cost the school district more to leave it on then it would if they allow the teachers to go home and do the work. We took full control of a school district, which I will not disclose, but in a year after installing our system they lowered their heating bills by over $300,000. (not kidding) 6 schools total, the largest of which was 100% electric heat

I was just bringing up a alternative idea about your though, I am not against what you said.

@steven "With regard to heat being lowered , if the buildings are that poorly insulated, then the cost of the building controls were poorly directed and should go for insulation ."

I can certainly tell you first hand schools are the WORST! We deal with many old schools, they are leaky, drafty, half have outdated old equipment that is on it's last legs. to gut a school to install insulation and fix these issues would probably be more then building a new school. So many school districts "make do" with what they have and just make it work

"a sweater ! " I deal with many, many, many people, and this is a common joke between us HVAC guys, people complain that it is cold when it is 75 degrees space temp, people complain that it is hot when it is 68 degrees space temp, people just complain to complain, and most of them have their sweater hanging on the back of their chair while they are saying they are cold!!!!

Darrin ✉
Apr '15

Something people have to remember on the taxes topic, our taxes just don't go toward teachers. We have to pay for schools, to heat the schools, maintenance on the schools (janitors), lunch staff, buses, repairs, new technology, there is literally so much more to schools then just teachers, they are just the ones on the front line that parents deal with, so they get the finger pointed at them.

In many schools janitors get paid twice as much as teachers, board and administrative staff, up to three times as much as teachers!!!! And what do they do? do you know them? do you know what their job are? NO! because for the most part, many of these people are behind the scenes "making it work"

FYI, in the US the average pay for a school superintendent is $109,000 and goes from $66,000 to $175,000

http://www.payscale.com/research/US/Job=School_Superintendent/Salary

So just to put that into perspective, it takes 31 homes paying $3,500 a year in just "school taxes" just to pay for that one person (using the average salary)

Darrin ✉
Apr '15

Give the teachers half of the 109,000, have them clean the school till 5:00,big savings?Don't offer hot lunches,the kids say they stink anyway,brown bag it, like we did, another big savings?Can it be this easy,how about one superintendent for mutiple schools,this is the age of computers,software runs the school.There is a way,and we all know it,but nobody want to give, they just want to take !

LoBo ✉
Apr '15

iAnimal, I agree with your perspective except for one minor issue: inflation. We've discussed this ad nauseum previously so I won't get into it, but what we are paying now vs what the average American earns (think of the 99%/1% discussions) is a higher percentage, even if spending vs gdp has been relatively flat. See here:
http://www.usgovernmentspending.com/education_spending
and here:
http://www.stateoftheusa.org/content/measuring-economic-well-being.php

It sounds good "in theory" but our economic reality shows that we are paying a much higher percentage per household than when we were kids.

Besides all of that, this is what concerns me most about the "higher pay is always better" mantra:

http://rossieronline.usc.edu/u-s-education-versus-the-world-infographic/

I have always agreed that our educators should be payed well, but that comes with the caveat that pay should be based on the ability to do the job. IOW, no tenure. Ever.

Add to the fact that, IMO, our societal attitudes of "me first" and a lack of respect for others are bigger issues than teacher performance. I don't care how good a teacher is, if the kids in the class don't care to be educated then results will always be lower than desired.

justintime ✉
Apr '15

Schools are often in poor shape because of the excessive total compensation paid to school employees leaves little left...

iJay ✉
Apr '15

I have been reading this thread for the past two days. I consider myself a middle of the road kind of person. I support education, because it is ALWAYS money well spent for us locally and nationally. It is clear most of you have developed half-baked rationalizations, conspiracy theories, and irrational fears that someone might be getting one over on you regarding this topic.

The vast majority of teachers are hardworking people with a passion for their life's vocation. They don't get paid for snow days, summer vacations, national holidays, winter or spring breaks. Period. They work more than the normal 35 or 40 hour work week. They purchase food, clothes, and other necessities for those that don't have them. They are counselors, supporters, cheerleaders, mentors, and surrogate parents.

When I have work done on my car, I take it to a competent professional who will give me service for a fair price. I don't get something for nothing. If I go in for a brake job, I get that work done for a set price. I need new plugs. it is extra. I get nothing for free.
this is the basic premise of the the discussion, you never get something for nothing.

On this topic, If I want to get additional services, I HAVE TO PAY FOR IT. Do we need a better education system? Yes, I am willing to pay for it. I'll buy a few less cups of coffee or drive a less expensive car.

Pay attention, this thread is a tremendous tribute to the teachers in your lives, who have done their job and been successful.

Don't question the quality of teachers. When your child fails three classes and is ineligible to play baseball, it is your fault, as a parent, for not making sure your child is doing his work. You have access to your child's grades throughout the marking period. Do you check them?

I find it incredible that Gus Bordi made those statements in the paper. This is classic Gus Bordi behavior, setting a fire irresponsibly as the Board President. Wait and see what will happen. (Nice Job Gus)

Lastly, making statements of those things you are not fully knowledgeable of is simply irresponsible and does not further an intelligent discussion.

.

the hammerman ✉
Apr '15

Jit, maybe you misunderstood me. I was only speaking of the generality of the responsibility of one generation to support the education of future generations. I certainly wasn't saying that we should pay any more than we have to. There is definitely a lot of fat that can and should be trimmed from these budgets. I also think that mister g is onto something with using technology to eliminate or reduce the need for "brick and mortar" schools. But with the political power wielded by the unions, good luck ever getting anything like that legislated.

And while I feel that athletics and extra-curricular clubs are essential for setting our kids apart from (or at least being competitive with) their college competition and thus part of the overall education that we should provide, that doesn't include million dollar field turf and space-age track surfaces. Patchy grass and cinder tracks were good enough for us, lol. Those upgrades shouldn't be made on the backs of taxpayers; if they are to be provided, it should be through fundraising by booster clubs.

ianimal ✉
Apr '15

Are you for real "the hammerman" LOL...

You claim to be middle of the road yet you "ALWAYS" support education spending???

All public spending has to be within a budget, if all the stakeholders in a budget did not compromise then we would "ALWAYS" NEVER have a balanced budget...

iJay ✉
Apr '15

Hammerman-which school do you teach at?

swimswitdafishes
Apr '15

". They don't get paid for snow days, summer vacations, national holidays, winter or spring breaks. Period. "

What are you talking about??? Yes they do! The get paid to work 182 days a year. They are salary emploeyees

Darwin ✉
Apr '15

Teachers get paid for the days they work, not for holidays, spring, winter, summer breaks, or bad weather days. Each district has a certain number of school days on their calendars and those are the days they get pair for. There is no over time pay for all the extra hours of work whether done in school, at home, or during the summer. The amount of over time work that teachers do is huge. Most would not begin to understand or even believe all the extra hours that go into teaching.

Spring Fever ✉
Apr '15

Iman, thank you. Realize what I am saying is that we should investigate our basic education structure and ask ourselves, is this the most effective and efficient way to educate for the 21st century? I tossed Kahn Academy out as an idea because it represents out-of-the-box thinking and seems to work by radically changing the equation, but I am not saying that technology is the only answer.

Think about it, 30 kids listening to a teacher give the same lecture the teacher has given for years, perhaps updated, but that certainly seems like a high cost delivery system to hire a human to do something they could have recorded. Why not get the best person to do it once for the entire nation? Or is it more about baby-sitting?

But there's more to Kahn's structure than on-line lectures: "flipping the classroom," not crediting C work as completion and knowing the subject; there's much more to it than just recording some lectures. And the exchange for reducing delivery costs might be much more one-on-one teacher-coaching than students get today in the 30:1 environment.

Back to sports. First, education is much more than reading and writing; there's the creative process, building curiosity, innovation, and creativity. There's socialization and social interaction education, team building, ethics, morals, all sorts of things we need to educate our kids about even including even sports and religion (general education, not Christianity training or creationism....). Just locking them in their rooms and delivering on-line programs will never get all of that done. There needs to be coaching interaction, team activities, and group activities as well. Otherwise we might develop to be a nation of Matt Farrell's and Warlock's from Live Free or Die Hard.

In the sports area though, what's most important is teaching physical education and the value of PE for health. I am not so sure that we need to taxpayer subsidize competitive team sports beyond supporting them as extracurricular activities like the sewing club or debate team. I think it's worth a look to see if we can be more efficient and effective.

When you think about it, competitive sports is just another taxpayer funded entitlement we provide for the poor. Maybe it's socialism and a good thing. I mean we start pumping the tax dollars in at Jr. High looking to entitle young kids to climb out of poverty. We continue the entitlement program even offering colleges all sorts of entitlements for sports, one of the silliest is allowing a tax break for college donors who get priority seating in return for their donation. Laugh, but this may be a billion dollar untaxed revenue stream with a direct quid-pro-quo. Donations for priority and often free NCAA tourney tickets. Then, we continue to subsidize professional competitive sports in the private sector by making many of these profit makers tax exempt entitling the players to even higher tax supported incomes to help keep them above the poverty line. I mean we started tax supporting them via entitlement programs in Jr. High, how could we make them go cold turkey at this point?

So sports entitlement programs are embedded throughout the system helping a small handful of kids who can't learn anything else how to make a living throwing balls and snapping locker room towels. Not the mention the education it provides for cheerleading, marching band, and water-boys. Socialized sport taxpayer entitlement programs are as American as our morning Danish.

Point is Iman, while I think physical education for our kids is paramount, I am not sure competitive sports are and would be willing to look to see if perhaps there is a better, more effective, efficient way to do this versus a lifetime series of tax entitlement programs even within the private sector. I like watching HHS football which says a lot. I love the marching band. Yet I think it's fair to question how we fund this and what we are actually educating in that process.

mistergoogle ✉
Apr '15

Scheduled teaching days are first built into a school schedule. Depending on the district, a teacher's pay check is then calculated to be spread out over the months of September thru June, based on the set number of days they teach. They do not get checks through the months of July or August unless they are contracted to do specific work in addition to the regular school year.

" Inclement Weather" days are added on to the regular school year calendar in case they are needed. Teachers do not have these days added into their regular school year paychecks. They do NOT get paid for being off on these bad weather days, only the days they are in school teaching. So if no "weather" days were used, the kids and teachers get out earlier, because they have taught their contracted number of days.

Spring Fever ✉
Apr '15

Some teachers get paid for breaks others do not.

Just as some kids are bad, some are not, some teachers are bad, some are not.

The problem is people keep lumping everyone into their respective category, and that is not fair to the good kids, the good teachers, and that has caused most of the controversy and arguments on this topic.

Do know that there are many teachers such as subs, aids, para-professionals, etc that do not get paid for days off and breaks. So you guys are never going to solve that argument.

Darrin ✉
Apr '15

I think we are saying the same thing Spring Fever. A teachers salary is based on, what was it,182 days, regardless of the actual day those days are taken off.

So calculate the hourly wage by dividing salary by the scheduled number of days (182) and then by the number of scheduled work hours in the day.

Recalculate by the number of actual hours worked per day to get a more realistic hourly wage.

Still, none of that is a huge issue IMO. That's all pretty cut and dry and just gets in the way of the real issues.

Tenure for those who aren't keeping up is more concerning, as is the huge amount of overhead that occurs outside of the classroom. Much of that overhead is 100% due to all the rules and regulations imposed by the local school district, the state and the federal government. Picking away at the regulation side of things would have a greater impact than anything that happens at the instructional level. The gorilla in the room in this category is standardized testing.

justintime ✉
Apr '15

By insisting that teachers are only paid for 182 days, you're just backing up the argument that they're overpaid.

If a teacher has a salary of $60,000 and works 182 days that would work out to $330 a day.

If someone in a comparable job (not in education) gets paid $60,000 a year and works 250 days, that is $240 a day.

MB ✉
Apr '15

"By insisting that teachers are only paid for 182 days, you're just backing up the argument that they're overpaid."

they are also saying that $65k avg salary for teachers in NJ would then really be $78k if they worked a full year.

darwin ✉
Apr '15

Brotherdog, I fully agree with you but the only thing I don't like with separating the kids is the lack of social interaction. I don't mean play time. I mean learning to work with others in various situations. When you get into the work force you are dealing with all kinds of personalities and lessons on how to deal cannot be taught by a book or a computer.

It's getting to the point where the only way kids know how to communicate is via a text message (some adults too). We need to find a happy medium.

Jazzykatt ✉
Apr '15

First re:read since the virtual part is only a tip of the Kahn Academy iceberg and, personally, virtual is just an answer, certainly not the answer.

And yes, I agree that education includes many aspect of social interactions although I would hesitate to say that the classroom is anything like most work environments involving teams. Otherwise, football players and cheerleaders would rule the world and the folks who do rule the world would either have their heads in a locker or be covered in cardigan (just kidding --- see Big Bang Theory)

I feel as we question our educational structure, these can be done much better than we do today and can get much closer to the real world and work environment than the high school ecosystem does.

And for the hammer-ed-man; I think the possibility exists to better our educational structure to better our efficiency and effectiveness. While this may sound like weasel words, mark my words, I personally feel investment in education is a good thing.

mistergoogle ✉
Apr '15

Sounds like most on here are just jealous that their job doesn't have these standardized breaks like holidays.....maybe look into teaching if it is "so good".

You guys spend more time bitching about what teachers apparently "have" then you do saying whats wrong with them having it....sure sounds like jealousy speaking

Darrin ✉
Apr '15

I think that the available technology should really be exploited so that kids can truly "learn at their own pace" with individualized education schedules.

If a certain kid is capable of learning and fully understanding everything he needs to know to graduate high school by 8th grade, why should his intellectual growth be retarded by forcing him to sit there bored out of his mind while teachers try to catch the others up to his level?

By having some sort of linear digital curriculum in any number of subject matters deemed appropriate and necessary that can be completed at one's own pace and ambition (if a kid wants to do school work on weekends and summers, who is anyone to tell him that he can't?)... whether it be common core or something else... you can break down the barriers that the current educational paradigm erects, which is stifling the growth of the gifted and failing to raise up the truly challenged.

ianimal ✉
Apr '15

First off no teacher is forced to join the Union. However in 22 states, if a teach opts out, they pay an agency fee to the Union. In NJ, that price is 85% of the dues. About 2% of the teachers in NJ opt out or less than 2%. Just saying it's not a monopoly.

MB --- I think you can answer your own question re: Darrin's depth of head based on average heights for U.S. men. Question is, are you a deeper person? Of course some of this diatribe is about jealousy over hours, pay, benefits and having someone lobby for those, successfully, on your behalf. While the private sector has been losing and losing, teachers have held steady and now what we all used to look down on, looks up to many of us.

Like I said, for the private sector, we have lost on salary against even COLA raises,, health benefits, pensions, you name it. It has all been a downward spiral and we just sucked it up. When you're sucking pond water from the muddy end of the pond, somehow suggesting that we lower the water for others floating on top makes us feel better like it's their fault. Hint: lowering the water does not make the mud go away or make it taste better ---- either get used to it or fight your own fight. Personally those private sector guys without Unions are the greedy ones ------ myself included. White collar mid-management should have Unionized a couple of decades ago and most certainly by 2000. But man, those Clinton years were a financial blessing and Union jobs like teachers, well, they sucked pond water.

mistergoogle ✉
Apr '15

"One of the perks school teachers enjoy are summers off. Full-time public school teachers are on an annual contract, which is written for a number of months or may specify a number of contracted days. They receive a salary for the time they are contracted to work. This is generally an annual salary – even if the work schedule is not year-round -- and means that they are paid even when they are on summer break."

http://work.chron.com/teachers-paid-during-breaks-22786.html

darwin ✉
Apr '15

Darwin, the district I worked in offered a 12 month pay or a 10 month pay for full time teachers. Most chose the 10 month pay so we would have larger paychecks during the 10 months for which we were under contract, and could then earn interest on our contracted salary rather than the school district earning the interest for the extra two months they would be holding on to our salaried money.

Our contracts stated that we were employed from September first of the year thru June 30th of the following year. We could not collect unemployment though during the summer months and many found summer jobs to suppliment their yearly salary, as many teachers still do.

I realize I was given a yearly salary based on a 10 month contract which we were required to sign by the start of each teaching year and fulfilled on the last day of June.

Spring Fever ✉
Apr '15

No, I wasn't Darwin, but think what you like...; )

Spring Fever ✉
Apr '15

tired of it all, you are spot on. I am a mechanical designer. If I can't design a product that works, what good am I to my employer? There's a lack of accountability by teachers and administrators.

Metsman ✉
Apr '15

How come Taxpayer funded jobs have no pee testing ? Huh ?

fact not fiction
Apr '15

SF,
Thank you, hoping someone will have the "current day" scenario,
curious to see how, or if , it has changed.

Steven ✉
Apr '15

I am not saying everyone is jealous, but I can point out a handful of people on here that have not added anything valuable, all they do is complain the teachers have it "so easy" (well just say)

Currently teachers working "contract" ends June 30th, so technically they are no longer employed over the summer. But...with that being said, since they were a seasonal employee to begin with, they cannot collect unemployment over the summer. And yes, they are expected to have their class room ready for kids by the first day of school, they do this without receiving a pay check at the end of the week.

My wife could not answer the question about health care because she chose to take my heathcare plan.

MB, no you are slaraied, instead the days get tacked on to the end of the year and you recieve no paycheck for it. And you have to make sure you work your summer vacation around having enough time in case the school year is extended. Also, something no body has brought up, teachers do not get any vacation time, so they forfeit the right to go on vacation as they please, all vacation has to be planned around breaks or around summer.

Darrin ✉
Apr '15

No. It all evens out by June 30th, or the last day day of school, which ever comes first.

For example, One year we taught till Friday, June 29th because we had so many snow days off. I believe we had 15 or 17 days off. We were a bussing district. Two of our make up days were on Saturdays in May. We did not get extra pay for the Days we taught on Saturdays or for the extended days past our scheduled end of year, which went over by more than 3 weeks and a few days. We also had one day off for Spring Break that year, and no President's weekend. We also have never had Martin Luther King day off, as the kids do. We had Workshops. But in the end we "just" managed to teach the required number of days, so it all worked out for the kids and the teachers.

Spring Fever ✉
Apr '15

Darrin, I have neighbors and friends who are teachers and they do take days off and go on vacation. They go away more than we do and not on school break, so they must get some kind of personal or vacation days !!

Mariann ✉
Apr '15

In what other profession does the employee gain financially without regard to the employers health?
MG -- most.

And the teachers are not doing themselves any favors. By asking for more money in return for 22 mins of additional student time they appear selfish with no regard to the employer.
MG -- here I agree 100%. Seems like cutting your nose to spite your face not to come to terms over 22 minutes for all sides. When the art of the deal comes out, one side or the other gonna look really foolish.

Home schooling, virtual education, in my book are alternatives but certainly not the answer to making the current educational system structure more effective and efficient. At best a piece of the puzzle where one size does not fit all and where purely cutting costs does not increase effectiveness.

mistergoogle ✉
Apr '15

In my former district, I had 3 personal days that did not roll over each year and I received 13 sick days that did transfer over each year. I was able to use my personal days for my wedding in a row, but as Darrin said, generally you cannot use them over multiple days unless it is under special circumstances. We could also not take personal/sick days before or after a holiday otherwise your pay was docked. Same goes for sick days with how many you can take off. My district after 2 days you had to have a doctor's note.

sunshinenj ✉
Apr '15

A teacher's contract is based on a clearly defined number of work days, for example 185 days. The contract generally runs from sept1 until June 3, and the given 185 days must be worked in that time period (some districts have adjusted the dates and start earlier). To make payroll easier for the district, and make it easier for teachers to pay their bills, the 185 days of pay is usually divided between 20 pay checks, 2 a month for ten months, all of equal pay. But the pay is for 185 days of work, whenever those days occur. If a teacher has a leave of absence for some reason (personal, unpaid sick leave etc), the pay that they lose is calculated daily, as is any income when they come back before the end do the year. So yes, their pay is the same over holidays, but they are not getting paid for that time, it is just spread out evenly. Some of you must work in payroll, how much more would it cost if every pay period were different, as opposed to doing it this way?
Teachers that are returning in September do get health benefits over the summer. But their contributions are spread out over their pay periods. They are not paying any less than if their pay was year round.
This is not to justify it or compare it to any other field, just to try to clarify it. If teachers were paid for the number of days worked in a pay period, yes some checks would be smaller, but some would be larger. It would all total the same in the end, they will work for, and be paid for, 185 days (or the number dictated by the contract).

bac ✉
Apr '15

Darrin, run the hourly wage calculation. Yes, for the most part, in aggregate, the profession makes a very, very good wage for 35 week job. It's not jealousy, it's reality. Extrapolate the salary to make it commensurate with the typical 50 week job and perhaps you'll better see the perspective.

Arguing against doing the job you were hired to do, within the time you were already hired to do it, comes across as petty on the part of the union and teachers. This is a battle that should never have happened IMO. There's nothing to be gained except more animosity.

justintime ✉
Apr '15

IF you have a very advantageous situation what do you do in the face of criticism?


DENY DENY DENY...

iJay ✉
Apr '15

Sorry Darrin but your math doesn't take into consideration delayed openings, early dismissal, scheduled 1/2 days. You can't break down teachers pay to hourly since if their hours are decreased their pay is not. So if you factor in all the less than 6.5 hrs days a teacher works, this extra 22mins would even it out.

But of course if you want us to dock their pay on days they don't work the full 6.5hrs I'm sure we would be ok with that :)

Darwin ✉
Apr '15

As a retired teacher who worked in public education for 25 years - and an additional 19 teaching and directing non -profit childcare centers, I have held my tongue and this will be my only post on the subject. Of course it will only be based on my own real experience between 1967 and 2011.
My salary when I retired, before deductions for all the usual (take home about 1/2 of gross) was about $90,000. My pension, based on number of years worked over 55 was 5/11ths of my salary.( I also put away as much as I could in a TDA.) For that I had earned a ba, ma, and 30 additional credits in education. I worked a normal school day 2 days a week and in addition, every Monday there was a staff meeting till 4pm, an additional day of tutoring a child, and generally some sort of committee meeting. Beyond that - (mine being either a prek or kindergarten room)- I had to spend hours straightening and preparing the room for the next day. In more recent times, detailed lesson plans citing core standards among other things were done on computer - at home. Further, progress reports were done with a very difficult and irrelevant computer program. It did not allow us to properly reflect the strengths of the child. Comments were "canned".
There were numerous evening events involving parents that we attended as well. Oh and lest I forget, I generally spent time over 2 weeks in August preparing my classroom. No I was not the only one there in August.

And now to the complaints about less committed staff. Like any type of work, there are those that do and those that do less. Do those who are deeply committed get upset about the others - Hell yes. Can a skilled educator tell very quickly who "has it" and who doesn't? YES. Can someone who "has it" but needs some support and mentoring initially? YES. It's my belief, after 44 years in the field, that some of us have it with kids and some don't. Then it's a matter of getting skills and techniques.

So - why are there some teachers in classrooms who are less than excellent? Simple--- Administrators who are supposed to evaluate new teachers and provide support -do not always to that. Over the 25 years my school had at least 10 different principals. Rarely did any give any support to novices. And even more rarely did any recommend letting teachers go. Oh yes - we knew very quickly who was doing a great job and who wasn't. Ask me about speaking with my principal about a few teachers on their cell phones rather than watching the kids on the playground - or probably in their classrooms.

Please don't damn us all. The great majority of teachers I worked with over the years were excellent. Many had to work after school or summer jobs to supplement their salaries. Others found tutoring jobs. All paid into ssi and pension - and now all are paying substantially more for benefits with less coming back. Oh and by the way - teachers pay the same taxes as the rest of you - and through state taxes - help pay more for their own benefits.

Yes - lengthy but I've sat on my hands as long as I can. You would have to be there to be in a position to judge and criticize.

Ok - I'm done - more I could say but - enough - Thank a Teacher.

5catmom ✉
Apr '15

lotsocats just popped up, beat me to the punch

" why are there some teachers in classrooms who are less than excellent? Simple--- Administrators who are supposed to evaluate new teachers and provide support -do not always to that."

Exactly what I was getting at...

Many people point fingers but really don't 100% know how the system works

Darrin ✉
Apr '15

Get rid of Tenure and the Administrators can get rid of those teachers who are less than excellent.

Till then it's nearly impossible to replace a tentured employee not to mentioned costly since the union will step in.

http://teachersunionexposed.com/protecting.php

Darwin ✉
Apr '15

Let's invert the discussion.

Would anyone argue that UNIONS get more total compensation for their members where they are represented? Why should the taxpayer be essentially robbed by this systemic corruption of this system -- pay or else?

iJay ✉
Apr '15

@ijay "Would anyone argue that UNIONS get more total compensation for their members where they are represented?"

100% correct, be it teachers union, electrical union, labor union.....power in numbers, no question about that.

Darrin ✉
Apr '15

Correct, power in numbers. But then you cannot argue that some are excellent and should not be lumped in with the bad. If you decide to negotiate as a group then you will be judged by the group. The excellent teachers should from the union, because in essence, the union is really protecting the bums. Excellent teachers would be able to stand alone.

tired of it all
Apr '15

Do not compare an Engineering degree with that of a typical teacher. An Engineering graduate should make more than a History graduate. I would further argue that a B.S. in Engineering is worth more than a Doctorate in History.

In life, one should be compensated for their availability and difficulty of the task; this naturally leads to having far more "Education" degrees than "Engineering" degrees due to increased difficulty of Engineering degrees leads to fewer graduates.

Unions try to level the playing field among careers, a form of Socialism. It is great if you are on the equalized side such as a teacher; but not so great if you are an Engineering graduate who makes the same TOTAL compensation of a History teacher...

iJay ✉
Apr '15

@ijay "Do not compare an Engineering degree with that of a typical teacher. An Engineering graduate should make more than a History graduate. I would further argue that a B.S. in Engineering is worth more than a Doctorate in History."

Why shouldn't I? I have a BS in Engineering, and my wife has a BS in teaching....we both went through the same amount of school, same amount of classes, so I feel I have every right to compare the two. If my degree was harder then hers is a inaccurate statement, everyone is good at certain things, I happen to be good at engineering courses, if you put me in the courses she took, I wouldn't do well, and the same vice versa.

@ijay "n life, one should be compensated for their availability and difficulty of the task"

Who is to determine the "difficulty of the task" certain tasks for certain individuals can be very easy, and for others, can be very difficult....so this is inaccurate, also as described above. Everyone is good at what they do, and not everyone has the ability to "do anything"

@MG "The yearly salary comparison is somewhat inaccurate in that until you compute the off-season salaries for those who chose to work you really just have an estimate of the full year salary IF the school systems ran 12 months. But it's a number for comparison."

Not really ture MG, because the = to with the 50/35 split covers that where we were talking about $78 yearly somewhat covers that, given that they can get a summer job which pays the same $45.7 hourly wage I came up with.....very doubtful

Darrin ✉
Apr '15

how much of our taxes goes to the police force?

brown bear
Apr '15

IJay says...

"IF you have a very advantageous situation what do you do in the face of criticism?


DENY DENY DENY..." EXACTLY!!!!!

There is no point in discussing this topic with teachers or those closely associated.

Glad to see that there are others that actually "get it".

JRT ✉
Apr '15

"Not really true MG," We may be saying the same thing. What I meant was a teacher who works the summer, the time that JIT estimates to get a full years salary, either makes more or less their teacher's rate. We don't know although I would guess less. Also, there are probably teacher's who want to work but can't find it and they get zero bringing the full time average salary even lower.

Just saying that the full time calculation is a type of comparison but the realty money a teacher makes during the full year will be different, either higher or lower, and while I guess lower ---- we really don't know.

Maybe we can get those 178 teachers to send us their 1040's...... :>)

mistergoogle ✉
Apr '15

just fyi - in my former district before Sept. 1 and after June 30 teachers are paid an hourly rate - in my district it was $27. an hour for many many years - and then was raised to $30. an hour - where it has sat for more years.....Regular contracted salary is for the school year. Hourly is for required workshops, summer jobs etc.... big bucks - eh?

5catmom ✉
Apr '15

5catmom it's all in the benefits. Used to be 100% medical coverage for life and then the pension; it's still that way less the contribution to medical. With the medical someone could have retired at 55 comfortably, try doing that in the private sector.

Taxpayers should be paying for "normal" compensation. Unfortunately, today that means no retiree medical and no pensions...

iJay ✉
Apr '15

Trick no, probably the only job that deserves exceptional retirement benefits -- you don't agree?

iJay ✉
Apr '15

You are skewed my friend. Those who protect us abroad deserve exceptional retirement benefits since they allow the civilians back home (practically everyone on this forum) to live peaceful lives.

Teaching is secondary to this and its importance is shared by many professions. What use is a teacher if you don't have a good pediatrician (a child gets ill and dies)? Sorry, but I would place pediatricians above teachers...

iJay ✉
Apr '15

How does one get to be a pediatrician? Through education. A long education that includes primary, secondary, collegiate and post-graduate studies. What kind of person would you like guiding them through this process? Do you want a pediatrician that is trained by a mediocre teacher or one that is trained by an exceptional one? Personally, I'd prefer the one trained by the exceptional one.

Often times, those exceptional educators often have some valuable life experience that aids them in their process. For example, I've used a few dentists throughout my life. All have degrees and certifications and fancy papers in frames on their walls. However, in addition to all of those, one of them also took time to teach dentistry while practicing. Guess which one did the best work with the least amount of discomfort?

So you can say that pediatrician are more important that educators, yet without educators you can't have pediatricians. Your wife can't plop out a kid that has a complete medical knowledge. It has to be obtained and learned and I would prefer it come from the best, not the lowest bidder. That is, unless you think life is cheap.

btownguy ✉
Apr '15

What we need to focus on is the county tax portion. What do we get from the County for our taxes?

Trueblue
Apr '15

Also check out the Hackettstownnews paper I believe that the town operating expense budgets have not gone up since 2005. I think that is respectable.

Trueblue
Apr '15

Which comes first, education, talent or the job? Graduation, IQ, or a shingle?

Let me help: it's IQ followed by education followed by using that education to provide a service.

ta da.

Next: is it nature or nurture?

mistergoogle ✉
Apr '15

JIT, I am honored that you think I'm a teacher. Sadly, I am not. Nonetheless, you can have the best upbringing in the world but if the individual teaching you is an idiot, you're not going to learn as well as if they were a high-quality individual.

iJay, it's interesting that you said I talk in circles when that is your main approach. You villianize teachers and ask questions, then ignore responses and other question asked in return only to throw in your main talking points. Circling back to your agenda and ignoring the points of others. At least I have the courtesy to address the questions.

Unions have appropriate compensation for the amount of time and effort demanded for their tasks.

Technology is in place in schools much more than you realize. A little research will reveal that, but I know it's easier for you not to research. As a result of technology, many students are losing the ability to do real research, much like yourself, and depend on the first google results. There's a difference between the use of a tool and a crutch. Technology is being used more as a crutch than a tool.

btownguy ✉
Apr '15

iJay, thanks for proving my point regarding talking in circles. I'll be sure to let the police and firefighters know that you think their compensation is excessive.

btownguy ✉
Apr '15

We homeschool our children, and accomplish their education plans with less than $400 per year per child (probably much less). I believe they are receiving a very good education. Of course, I know you can't compare apples to oranges, but still, I am baffled by the extremely high per student cost annually to the taxpayers. Surely, there must be a less expensive way to educate our children!

Spence ✉
Apr '15

Darrin-
Agreed. Government in general is bloated and unmanaged. All of the employees and operations need to be looked at so spending in necessary areas can be had. Gaining efficiency instead of just taxing as necessary is required.

tired of it all
Apr '15

"Agreed. Government in general is bloated and unmanaged. All of the employees and operations need to be looked at so spending in necessary areas can be had. Gaining efficiency instead of just taxing as necessary is required."

Yawn, generalities sans facts usually just tug for an emotional response.

At the Federal Level, the tax rate has never been better. Certainly part of the reason for the debt.

Oh yeah, there's less Federal employees too. Wanna guess what the state numbers look like? https://www.opm.gov/policy-data-oversight/data-analysis-documentation/federal-employment-reports/historical-tables/total-government-employment-since-1962/

Now if you adjust these for rising GDP and population, well, it only looks smaller.

But who's gonna argue with the feeling that government is too big, they can't do anything right, all they do is waste, we are taxed too much, etc. etc. etc.

mistergoogle ✉
Apr '15

Don't forget that there are huge costs to run the required programs such as special Ed. The state has many unfunded mandates that schools must comply with. I would love an honest, accurate estimate of the cost of testing alone, as well as the technology required to administer it. Oh and the personnel costs for all the set up, training and planning of testing schedules. Many, many hours are involved.

bac ✉
Apr '15

A "complete" and transparent audit is what should be mandated for each school with a "side by side ' comparison of the neighboring town.
Same should be done with "all personell, teachers, principals, janitors,librarians, gym, music, etc.. I have no interest in the superintendents , they are standing targets. This needs to be looked at as a convenience store , ( there are pennies being made on each item, individually they seem minimal, however, add them up and see how large an amount it is )

Get a "crystaL clear" view of what these items cost town to town.
Then and "IF" they will provide this information , can a true understanding of where the monies go, can be seen.

Taxpayer's have a right to know these cost's .

Steven ✉
Apr '15

By the volume of knowledge about educational budgeting, union bargaining, special services, allocation of resources, staffing needs, tenure rights and many other things that seem to be so well known about our schools and teachers in this thread, there should be no limit to the choices for School Board candidates during the next election.

Please run and save us all and reduce our taxes, it would be greatly appreciated. I would take this time to nominate:
Jefferson Republic
Steven
Darwin
iJay
Swimwitdafishes
and anyone else who has shared their great and informed ideas.

There is one caveat, it will take time away from your keyboard rants and the other worthwhile endeavors you are involved in.

Also, get educated and ask your questions to the people who can answer them.This Wednesday night (4/27) is the Hackettstown BOE meeting and the budget presentation. Show up or shut up.

Have a nice day,
Crazy Jane

Crazy Jane ✉
Apr '15

Thx crazy Jane. I actually did run for BOE this past fall when 2 seat in service seats came open. I came in 3rd.

Darwin ✉
Apr '15

Darwin that's actually pretty good. Usually the BOE runs with no opposition.

Teenie ✉
Apr '15

Steven, I agree that the education system needs to be restructured but mandating that all professional paid athletes should have 2% of their earnings sent back to their local highschool, PAL and Boys& Girls clubs is crazy. How would Hackettstown benefit if that was implemented as there are no professional athletes from town. Also, most professional athletes donate their time and money to charities in the towns they play in and many do make major donations for fields and gyms, etc, in the towns the're from. The last thing we need is another mandate on a specific group of people. Just my opinion of course.

kb2755 ✉
Apr '15

CZ,
you stated ; "Changes come when you make yourself heard to the people who make the decisions. Twice a month you have a chance to be heard, one of those chances is two days away. "
So I am guessing "you know first hand" each and every person on this forum, and that all have have nothing to do with the board of ed or any of the expenses attributed ( currently ) to education expenses . people speak to , or with one another, to share ideas and comments, for you to honestly believe then town would entertain the conversations here, tells me you will have a nice day ( every day ) .
kb2755; I was trying to make a point, perhaps the fact that there are no big sports person from ht makes it.....sooo much monies are spent on sports and the children are pushed to participate...take that same effort and use it to educate the children, the returns would be better for everyone.

Steven ✉
Apr '15

Crazy Jane-I speak with my ballot and that is enough. To insinuate that I cannot voice my opinion for others to hear as a taxpayer, unless I run for office, points out how crazy you are.

swimswitdafishes
Apr '15

Steven, wow, I hope you really don't think all kids are only cash register picture trained....

Interesting ideas but not sure gigging athletes is fair. What's next, gigging A students because they benefit more than D students? However, we could tax professional teams and target said tax to the school system. After all, they are the top of the food chain when it comes to making profit from this and not paying taxes on it.

For after school activities, I think charging room and board would be cumbersome especially since the facilities are there to begin with sans some heat and lights. Plus I think many of us would agree that most extra curricular activities add to the curriculum. But I agree that these organizations should fund everything beyond facilities.

Local board of Eds, don't get me started. I think many of our local governance should be at a county level, at minimum. But at some point, you lose the local and end up with regional or federal.

mistergoogle ✉
Apr '15

"To insinuate that I cannot voice my opinion for others to hear as a taxpayer, unless I run for office, points out how crazy you are."

Exactly.

I'm guessing CJ doesn't vote for mayor, congress, or president (or contact them while they are in office) unless her name is also on the ballot... since that's the only legitimate way to do it.

Mark Mc. ✉
Apr '15

Bottom line ,the private sector did away with pensions and turned them in to 401k's(with a small contribution from the company)health insurance costs climbed to close to 1k a month for a family while paying 10 k in taxes(with 75% going to schools)we just simply cannot afford to fund pensions anymore.Give them what they have so far and let them invest it themselves.The average taxpayer cannot do it anymore.

Intrest
Apr '15

The only answer I believe that I have accurately is; correct is "the system is broken and needs to be re-structured".

Persons that use ( and benefit ) from the system, are not paying their equal shares,, passing it on to the backs of all taxpayers ( many that have paid into the system for 20 or 30+ years ), education has changed and has brought with it, additional cost's not originally associated with an educaion . the method of payment / houshold needs to be updated and revised to be reflective of the use of system by each individual household and billed accordingly.

If a business is loosing money , they "re-evealuate and re-organize" ( usually after deep cost cutting measures have been put in place )...so when/ where have the schools , or the BOD done this ?

I think the teams pay taxes, what I am saying is "the individual players making miliions per year, can and should donate a small percentage of their earnings" for the extra ciricular "after school " sport activities ..it is good PR for them, a tax deduction, benefits the children directly, helps the tax burden on school systems ...and helps players and teams create a "fan base " by the charitable work they "all do ".

Steven ✉
Apr '15

what I am saying is "the individual players making miliions per year, can and should donate a small percentage of their earnings" for the extra ciricular "after school " sport activities ..it is good PR for them

no what you said is "I believe all the professional sports persons should have a "mandated" 2% of their gross income taken from their salary and donated to.."

how is that a good PR move if it is a MANDATE? how is that considered a donation if it is forced?

darwin ✉
Apr '15

Steven, if we run our education system like a business, does that mean during a recession we throw teachers and kids out, spend less, and become stupidider?

Again, if we gig individual players to pay off school benefits, then why not gig A students for the same reason. Little beggers took us for all we were worth, got free scholarships, became doctors, engineers, and lawyers all on our tab.

Sorry, Iman, it's on HL somewhere, not necessarily this thread. NFL, NHL, PGA all non-profit. MLB gave theirs up only in 2007. You want to tell me they don't make profit well, duh, they're non profit. But they sure make a lot of money. The clubs pay taxes, but about $10M per year in taxes is waived off at the league level. That's after paying out lofty salaries and expenses. Gödel $29M, better than being CEO of Wal-Mart. He made over $44M in 2012. We subsidize his pay and he probably pays his taxes at a lower rate than you.

Most bowl games are non profit, all 35 of them plus the most super of all. The Sugar Bowl CEO made over $600,000 subsidized by you, the little guy. Tough work, must be since many bowl ceo's call it part time.

Not to mention kick backs for throwing a super bowl in your city like all ticket receipts go to the NFL down to free parking, best hotel rooms, and NFL approved cell reception.

Let's not forget stadium kick backs, tax and rent abatements.

I can keep going and adding other profitable sports endeavors not paying their fair share while making a buck at the same time.

mistergoogle ✉
Apr '15

I'm not sure the seats are so cheap. Think what you want. I'm paying for courtside

tired of it all
Apr '15

NFL coughs up less than 2% to charity not accounting for clubs, players, and individuals.

mistergoogle ✉
Apr '15

here's the agenda for tonight.
http://www.gmrsd.com/cms/lib03/NJ01001526/Centricity/Shared/currentagenda.pdf

Indy2 ✉
Apr '15

NFL gives up tax exempt. They must have heard you ,MG
http://www.lehighvalleylive.com/breaking-news/index.ssf/2015/04/after_decades_nfl_decides_to_g.html#incart_river

Old Gent ✉
Apr '15

Not the pension we are giving away here. Look at the payout tables in Canada, teachers and police unions would not agree.

Employee pays 9.5%
Employer pays 9.5%

If self-employed, pay the entire 19%
This way the 22 year old working at Starbucks actually contributes to a pension and takes it with him/her when they move on...

iJay ✉
Apr '15

In NJ, public employees paid 5.5% before 2011, 6.5% in 2011 and about 8.5% in 2015. Most pensions have portability.

mistergoogle ✉
Apr '15

To me the biggest problem with the pension system is the guaranteed payout amounts, regardless of economic performance of the investments.

Take somebody who works from ages 25 to 55 and retires with a $75,000 yearly pension. If that person lives to age 80, they will receive 2.25 million dollars.

What are the chances that even if the individual and state of NJ paid in the proper fund amounts that they would be enough to support this person's pension?

D-ManPV ✉
Apr '15

I worked for 32 years teaching and don't earn anywhere near $ 75,000 in pension.

Spring Fever ✉
Apr '15

In order to get a 75k pension, you need to have averaged about $150k per year over your last 3 years if you have 30 years in. I think the ratio is years worked divided by 55 or 60 depending on which "tier" you are in to determine what percentage you will receive.

ianimal ✉
Apr '15

no problems here with people earning big pensions. more power to them. I'm not one of them, but don't begrudge a nice paycheck to anyone.

brown bear
Apr '15

Thank you, Crazy Jane. Your information is correct. I try to stay off threads like this.
The misinformation being thrown around is incredible...

Spring Fever ✉
Apr '15

crazyjane - my numbers where just hypothetical. But lets use the real numbers you calculated showing that the teacher retiring after 30 years that had a last salary of $75K will take home $38K a year.

If that person lives another 25 years after retiring, that's $950,000 in pension payout benefits.

Excluding any plan failures/state defaults, that amount is guaranteed regardless of how bad the investment returns are over the next 25 years. The market only averages 2%, no worries. If the person lives 35 years, it's just another $380,000 that the state has to pay out.

That was the point I was trying to make earlier. A change to a 401K plan without a guaranteed payout is sorely needed.

D-ManPV ✉
Apr '15

Using the formula and assuming that a teacher works 36 years and collects a pension for 25 years, the amount adds up to well over a million dollars. That doesn't include the medical that is mostly paid for by the public. Right now we have 7 teachers at GM that make over 80,000 per year. They average 82,389.
36 years divided by 55=.6545454x82,389=53,927.34 53,927.34x25=1,348,183.40
We have 11 teachers that are in the high 70,000 range. In a year or two they will also be making over 80,000 per year.
18 teachers x 1,348,183.40=24,267,301.00
Over 24 million dollars to pay for the retirement of 18 people.

Indy2 ✉
Apr '15

Sounds like Washington !

LoBo ✉
May '15

So the answer is? Nothing will change,some great ideas out there,but!

LoBo ✉
May '15

What? 1.4 million! 5k for 30 years at 9% return would only yield have of that. And these days you can't go with 9% after the recessions we have had...

iJay ✉
May '15

ken,

Maybe you could give the detailed math as to how you arrive at 1.4M. It doesn't seem to make much sense.

MB ✉
May '15

A lot of mumbo-jumbo coming from the pro-pension posters...

iJay ✉
May '15

Total compensation is high, not the base salaries.

Convert the pensions to 401Ks and drop retiree medical coverage for everyone and it is in-line...

iJay ✉
May '15

The past is not a guarantee of the future. Who would have predicted the recession that started the last decade.

"if all inputs are equal"

Hello, hello, all inputs ARE NOT equal. Major issues are/were:

1) 9% estimated annual return which the actuaries told them should be 7%
2) COLA given by Democrats which was NOT funded
3) Corruption in the system, people that should not be eligible, etc.

As a taxpayer, I prefer to balance the books EVERY YEAR. A 401k allows this. A pension is a long-term song and dance where the taxpayer takes it up the rear...

iJay ✉
May '15

Who is pete?

Darrin ✉
May '15

At least I am loved.

Old Gent ✉
May '15

I dont think youre crazy

BrotherDog ✉
May '15

Why should taxpayers be funding compensation benefits long gone in the majority of private companies...

iJay ✉
May '15

I can tell you from personal experience that the High School sucks. Too much dysfunction... If I did my job the way these people do I'd be fired...

Metsman ✉
May '15

for one thing I've asked for certain materials for the last 2 or 3 months to help my son study in classes where he struggles and I'm still waiting. I don't need stress like this. I'm trying to put food on the table and a roof over my kids heads. Teachers like to blame the parents, well try working with parents, because we're not sitting in the classroom.

Metsman ✉
May '15

Sacrifice so much? Try working in the "real" world (i.e. Private Sector). You can retire with a pension and retiree medical after 20 years correct? A kid graduating high school today has to look forward to a 45 years of working before retirement, and even then he/she may not have enough besides having to struggle to keep a job. 45 years old is the new old and in the future it will probably be 40, so the kids today will have to work full-time for nearly 30 years after being "old".

And so people in the private sector don't do meaningful things? Please, time to wake up, get out of your public-sector POV box, and stop the BS...

iJay ✉
May '15

Excuse me..... IJay is bemoaning a military pension? Retirement at 37 for enlisted, 40-42 for officers with 40-year service giving full pay upon retirement. Plus a reduced payout for early retirement at 15 years with a $30,000 bonus and 40% highest pay for life. No bonus, but 50% pay for 20 years. Sure, the pay is not grand, but most who serve the time retire ASAP when they hit the age. College plans, life insurance and other discounts and more including free medical during service. So if they have their wits about them, officers retire at 40 with a Masters or PHD and enter the work force at their prime earning period with a 50% military pension to buffer the tough times.

My cousin did this, served in some war zones, came home, got his pysch degree, worked recruitment in some nice digs like Alaska and Montana, and opened his Drs office making Drs pay at age 40 plus an officer's pension. He is doing quite well.

On the flip side, firefighters do not make the top 10 list for dangerous jobs. Surprisingly, this proves how training and equipment can make even the most dangerous jobs safer. Trash men in America take greater risks but the top job for danger is construction, then fishing, then and I hate to write this --- pilots and flight engineers ----- ouch, that makes you think twice.

But Bishop makes a great point; he is getting less every year. IJay got less a long time ago and now wants to cover his loss by making Bishop equal to his demise. Sure, jobs should be comparative. There is also room for low pay, higher benefits or vice-versa, but the root cause of our dilemma is that middle America total salary packages have been under attack for a couple of decades. First it was the lure of greater amassed wealth via the 401K in lieu of a pension (with employers shrinking the contributions during transition dangling the profit sharing dream as the carrot) followed by the "health costs are rising so you have to contribute and then contribute more, and then more, more, more....

So we vent our frustration on teachers, firefighters and other public servants who have held the salary line better while middle America falls behind. Not only are we losing even to our low inflation rate, but any gains made have usually been for the top earners. I say feel free to argue that our public servants should have comparative pay, but please recognize the fact that it's not that their pay water is rising, it is that you are facing drought and apparently quite comfortable in asking "please sir, can I have some less...."

Take a look: http://www.pewresearch.org/fact-tank/2014/10/09/for-most-workers-real-wages-have-barely-budged-for-decades/

mistergoogle ✉
May '15

I am so glad I can help so many seize "the day."

Now, come to the dark side Bishop..........

mistergoogle ✉
May '15

"was a computer repair/networking technician" not much pay for this, hard to believe you are making less total compensation as a firefighter...

iJay ✉
May '15

"But Bishop makes a great point; he is getting less every year. IJay got less a long time ago and now wants to cover his loss by making Bishop equal to his demise."

WRONG. I did get "less" long ago via pensions being grandfathered (like most in the private sector) but it is not about covering my loss now. It is about keeping my property taxes under control...

iJay ✉
May '15

brown bear,

But the point is that it's not sustainable. The whole system is going to break if costs like this don't get under control. Of course I think everyone would love to give teachers/firefighters/cops the best compensation because of all they do for us, but in reality it's just not feasible.

MB ✉
May '15

iJay, I was doing computer repair and networking long before the market was saturated with 'technicians' that work cheap. I was very good at my job, too.

Do you realize how little of your property taxes actually go to pension systems? Do you realize that there are *separate* pension systems, all in varying degrees of health? There's the PERS, PFRS, TPAF. I can only speak for the PFRS, which is a little over 80% funded. It's in decent shape, because it's funded by the *workers* who have never missed a payment, and the municipalities, who haven't skimped on their payments anywhere near what the state government has. So blaming Police and Fire for the 'pension time bomb' is inherently wrong and based on incorrect information and assumptions.

I still cannot believe how many of you have decided that it's OK to steal from workers who have been making their contributions. How the hell would you feel if you were plugging money into your 401k, and when it was time to cash it out the bank said told you, "Hey, we know what we promised you but our ceo spent it all on hookers and blow, so you're not getting what you're supposed to." Would *you* be OK with that? How about spending 20 years at your job, and suddenly being told that you're taking a $12k a year pay cut because some blowhard politician says so?

The sheer hypocrisy some people exhibit is astonishing. On one hand you want to savagely chop away at the livelihoods of the very same people risking their lives to save and protect you.

This thread is ruining my good mood. I'm done here.

The_Bishop ✉
May '15

I was doing computer repair and networking long before the market was saturated with 'technicians' that work cheap

Well, today this type of job pays 25k with crappy benefits. I hire recent graduates with Masters degrees in Computer Science for entry level jobs that used to be just Bachelors and long ago no degree.

The public sector is a haven from the storm. You will not make 50k doing computer repair today as you probably know. A while ago we had a teacher who stated he was the top salesman before he was a teacher, and it was the cliche job of the 80s -- a pager salesperson.

Jobs like I have aforementioned are gone as far as providing a living salary and job security. Just like people used to have a good living selling cars, etc.

So, we are in a touchy situation where the world is getting more dog-eat-dog by the day.

Please don't use "serve and protect" as rational for people not to be able to question a public worker's compensation.

The final issue to respond to is the 20 year worker scenario. With pensions, people stick around -- Golden Handcuffs. The economy would be more efficient if many (not all) of the workers switched jobs. With a 401k you can move around but currently the amount is not as much as a pension. What is worse than a burned out public worker with 15 years of service and just coasts/slacks the last 5 or 10 years...

iJay ✉
May '15

thought this is of interest to this discussion:

"employment continues to lag pre-recession levels in more than half the states."


NEARLY HALF OF STATES EXPECT TO CONFRONT BIG BUDGET GAPS

The sheer number of states facing budget gaps prompted Standard & Poor's Ratings Service to call the trend a sort of "early warning."

"After all, if a state is grappling with a budget deficit now, with the economic expansion approaching its sixth anniversary, what will be its condition when the next slowdown strikes?"

Nationally, total tax revenue coming to the states has been rising, but the pace has been slow as employment continues to lag pre-recession levels in more than half the states.

A majority of states have failed to climb back to their pre-recession status, in terms of tax revenue, financial reserves and employment rates, said Barb Rosewicz, who tracks the fiscal health of states for The Pew Charitable Trusts.

you can read the rest here:

http://hosted.ap.org/dynamic/stories/U/US_STATE_BUDGETS_DEFICITS_RETURN?SITE=AP&SECTION=HOME&TEMPLATE=DEFAULT&CTIME=2015-05-09-11-25-47

BrotherDog ✉
May '15

Great news indeed...

iJay ✉
Jun '15

Yeah right great news.....obviously its not your pension he's screwing with.

Hot corner ✉
Jun '15

If the pensions and retiree medical are not stopped they will consume our state's budget.

When people can retire at 55 in this day and age with a significant pension and retiree medical and the costs are billions per year (and going up every year) you cannot expect the NJ taxpayer to continue to pay for this SCAM. I call it a scam because that is what it is (just look at the link in my post immediately above)...

iJay ✉
Jun '15

The state, before Christie, and during Christie has been borrowing on the pension to pay for many things so Sandy would not be a stretch.

The issue is not that the State is not paying it back, the issue is that they are refusing to pay enough to make the fund solvent and this time around Christie made all sorts of headlines by saying he would bring funding up and then reneged and defunded the pension once again since his "blue sky" state revenue estimates fell far short of reality.

He got sued, he won, but the judges still indicated the situation was distasteful, just not illegal or unconstitutional.

Bottom line is Christie has been a financial bust on almost all economic issues whether budgeting, taxing, or getting jobs to NJ. A one trick pony, cut, cut, cut, which is a good thing but only goes so far.

mistergoogle ✉
Jun '15

Well we're not alone in this; we're just in the top 20.

http://www.bloomberg.com/visual-data/best-and-worst//most-underfunded-pension-plans-states

And it's just not the public sector: http://www.valuewalk.com/2013/05/corporate-pensions-most-underfunded/

Here's the difference. The private sector has "insurance' or a pool of money targeting failed companies. Thing is they can handle a few failures a year, but they could never come close to covering a run on the pension "banks."

The states on the other hand either never figured they could go belly-up or figured the fed would rescue them. They have zero insurance; there is no plan B.

Of course this great knowledge convinced me to roll my pension just before the Great Recession. In hindsight, ooooops. Since then I have had to "work" very hard, or at least my pension rollover did, to keep up with what the pension would have paid out.

mistergoogle ✉
Jun '15