You can't pay kids to shovel snow?! (NJ sucks)
Seriously.... has ALL common sense been lost?!?! You can't have a lemonade stand, you can't shovel snow for pay..... come on......
http://www.glennbeck.com/2015/01/28/freedom-high-schoolers-stopped-by-police-for-trying-to-shovel-snow-new-jersey/
JeffersonRepub That story has been clarified - apparently police suggested the kids come back later when it would be safer out to shovel - even the kids were surprised about the uproar.....
so another viral twist of facts......sad that it seemed believable as presented
5catmom 
Calico696 The police probably "suggested" to come back later when it was safer to apply for the $450 permit to shovel someone's driveway.
Mark Mc. Prime example of the media trying to make a story about a non-story. police suggested that the kids not hand out flyers and moved on. that's it end of story.
2 cents"police suggested that the kids not hand out flyers and moved on. that's it end of story."
End of story? Why is there a law against handing someone a piece of paper?
Maybe dig a little deeper next time, eh? (But watch out, you might need a permit for that...)
Well, yeah there is when you're going door to door. You need a permit for solicitation. I seen it brought up on this site at least half a dozen times and no one ever complained about it.
Gadfly I thought the problem was that they were outside during the State of Emergency, not an issue with permits or solicitation.
BrownEyesGuy I understand that you "need" a permit...
The question is why? I couldn't care less if someone tucks a flyer in my door handle or mailbox flag, and if you don't want anyone to do that, hang a No Trespassing sign or simply ask them to leave the property (and if they don't they are trespassing, at which point the police would get involved for an actual "crime").
Especially for someone *walking* door to door. I could understand it somewhat if you had a large truck that you parked in front of everyone's house and tied up the streets in order to do your soliciting, but that's a traffic issue.
any excuse to become angry - and imho there are plenty of real things that are upsetting or anger making
BEG, One of the cops said that in the article, but that's BS. The travel restriction didn't start until 11 pm and I'm sure they weren't going door to door that late. And the state of emergency doesn't limit travel. Moreover, even the travel restriction itself has an exemption for snow removal.
Mark. I don't know that we need a permit requirement for solicitation, but dems da laws. Like I said, it's been brought up on here. Many times when someone has posted about a "suspicious salesman" and I don't remember objections.
from NJ.com - http://www.nj.com/somerset/index.ssf/2015/01/is_it_really_illegal_for_kids_to_offer_to_shovel_y.html
"The ordinance was originally passed to protect residents against scams, distraction robberies and the like, he said.
"It's on the book to stop scam artists and those types of people from going door-to-door to solicit sales. Initially, we responded to a report of a suspicious male walking through yards, not door-to-door solicitation," Rivenbark said.
Anti-solicitation ordinances are common. Franklin Township and Bernards Township, for instance, have similar ordinances on the books, police in those municipalities said.
"We have an ordinance that says you need a solicitation license to go door-to-door for sales," said Lt. Mark Leopold, a spokesman for the Bernards police. "But kids going door-to-door to shovel snow isn't the same thing. Usually, common sense prevails."
Molinari and Schnepf, both 18, ran into trouble when Bound Brook police received a call at 6:18 p.m. on Monday evening of a report of a suspicious male wearing a red sweatshirt and no coat walking through yards, Rivenbark said. He added a state of emergency was in place in the borough at the time and no one was supposed to be on the roads. They pair were riding in a pickup truck, Rivenbark said.
"Our guys did the right thing," Rivenbark said. "We just told the kids to come back tomorrow (Tuesday morning) during the daylight hours. Our officers used discretion and that was it."
Molinari said the officers were polite and professional.
"The police were very nice to us," Molinari said. "They told us there was a law against solicitation. We told them we were just handing out fliers and trying to make some extra money with the snow coming. They took down Eric's information. (He was the one with the red sweatshirt and no coat walking through yards)."
Molinari said the two teens were told they could shovel driveways residents contacted them, but they couldn't solicit.
Tuesday morning, Molinari said, he and Schnepf awoke to an underwhelming snow fall. He said they got four jobs, including one from the man in front of whose home the police stopped them, another as a result of their fliers and two in their neighborhood.
"Everything went well," Rivenbark said."
"but dems da laws"
I know... the problem is, most people think that's the "end of story" rather than questioning the need for millions of laws - and rescinding the ones that have little/no merit.
I don't think most people would consider some kids going door to door to shovel show a huge issue that required a legislative "solution", but that's what we've got.
Yeah, I'm not defending the law. I'm pointing that it's ridiculous for people to act outraged when the police enforce a law that everyone knows is on the books. People know about this law and generally don't seem to oppose it. But, now it's a big shock? Want to change the law? Great! I don't really care one way or the other.
Bound Brook's Ordianance:
Peddler shall mean a person who goes from house to house or from place to place, whether on foot or in a vehicle, selling and delivering goods and services.
Hackettstown's Ordianance:
Peddler: A "peddler" is any person who goes from place to place by traveling on the
streets and roads or from house to house carrying, conveying or transporting goods, wares, or merchandise for the purpose of selling and delivering them to customers.
Hackettstown's wording doesn't include " Services" which snow shoveling would fall into. Seems BB needs to adjust it's language.
darwin These "kids" were 18, not 12 or 13. They are subject to the same laws as the rest of the adult world.
Besides, how many burglaries do you read about in the paper committed by "kids" who are 18 or 19?
ianimal Darwin - Read the next paragraph (Section 8-26c):
http://www.hackettstownbid.com/docs/chapter-08-business-and-occupations.pdf
"Solicitor or Canvasser: A "Solicitor" is any person who goes from place to
place by traveling on the streets or roads or from house to house taking or attempting to take orders for the sale of goods, wares and merchandise, or personal property of any nature whatsoever for future delivery, or for services to be furnished or performed in the future, whether or not such person has, carries or exposes for sale a sample of the object to be sold and whether or not they are collecting advance payments on such sales. The word “solicitor" shall include the word "canvasser", provided, however, that this definition shall not include wholesalemen calling on retail merchants."
funny 2 weeks ago there was a Thread about a woman soliciting in town and everyone's response was to call the cops.
http://www.hackettstownlife.com/forum/660232
"These "kids" were 18, not 12 or 13. They are subject to the same laws as the rest of the adult world."
OK, I don't care how old someone is if they want to stick a paper in my door. Trespassing laws still apply (if I choose to invoke them) regardless of what activity someone is doing (soliciting, bird watching, etc.).
Good to know that you concur that 18+ is not a "kid". I'll tuck that tidbit in my back pocket for other topics... ;)
sorry Mark you are right., I was going Peddler vs Peddler language, I guess H'town would consider these kids Solicitors, not Peddlers.
"funny 2 weeks ago there was a Thread about a woman soliciting in town and everyone's response was to call the cops. "
Not me... but permit or not, my response to someone entering my property at night uninvited would be "please get off my property" and if they don't comply, I call the cops for a trespasser, not a solicitor. The trespassing law solves BOTH problems.
Not to split hairs Mark, but in this thread you're first reaction to people going door to door was to ask whether they had their permit. Then you made your case as to why they should be required to have a permit.
http://www.hackettstownlife.com/forum/608865#t608934
The problem is that some people who are "sticking papers in your door" are actually casing the joint to see if it's a good target for burglary. Making them register and provide identification would go a long way to prevent that.
As for the other, from a legal standpoint, no, they aren't kids. And as such, I believe that either drinking and smoking and everything else that 18-year olds are "protected" from "for their own good" should be made legal for them or the age of responsibility should be raised to 21. It's a legal contradiction that has bothered me for a long time.
As for the social and maturity aspect of whether an 18-year old is an adult from a practical standpoint, that's a much greyer area and is a totally different discussion apart from the legal one. Make sure to leave room in your pocket for that, too (-;
"Not to split hairs Mark, but in this thread you're first reaction to people going door to door was to ask whether they had their permit. "
As you so eloquently stated, "dems da laws". I was just asking if they were compliant.
"some people who are "sticking papers in your door" are actually casing the joint "
So as long as they don't stick a paper in the door, they're good to case joints all day?
What if they just wanted to knock on the door to say "good morning" to everyone or they fall under one of the solicitor exemptions (whether real or a scam)? No permit required, and the same information can be obtained about your house/presence.
Relying on solicitor's permits to reduce burglary is a bit inefficient.
I generally agree with your 18 vs. 21 conundrum (leaning more towards 18 - or even 17 since that's the age you can go to war - is the threshold). Might need some cargo pants for that topic.
"Oh good, so we agree."
I believe so... if there's a law it should be followed (in general - don't want to get too political here), but that compliance in and of itself doesn't mean the law is just or necessary.
Trust me, I've got plenty of experience being in that position.
Wonder what happens when a kid in a ski mask holding a shovel knocks on JR's door in the middle of the night :>)
mistergoogle If he's wearing a SKI MASK and it's the MIDDLE OF THE NIGHT, he'd better run.
If it's daylight and he's wearing a ski mask and holding a snow shovel, I'd hire him. OH NO!!! That makes me a CRIMINAL!!!!
A couple of points:
1. No solicitation without a permit is the law. You can't pick and choose how to apply the law. If the law is unreasonably burdensome, then the community can address those issues with their town council / committee.
2. The police weren't looking to harass anyone here. They were responding to a citizen complaint of a suspicious person in the neighborhood. It seems that once they determined that the boys were not a threat, they suggested that they pursue their snow shoveling efforts during the day vs. late in the evening. Hardly an overreach by the local PD. They were doing their job.
3. I personally have no issue with door to door solicitation like this (kids taking the initiative to make some cash during a snow storm) but unless the law specifically excludes things like that, the letter of the law is what law enforcement if charged with upholding. Clearly the local PD used appropriate discretion here and this has only become an issue due to the way the press reported it.
4. The press should focus their attention on real issues not overly dramatic sensationalism.
Rant over.
taxedtodeath Ordinance shmordinace. This is all BS. Just another example of government overreach, under the guise of public safety, which of course SOME of the people eat up like candy... more than willing to let the government get bigger and relinquish a little bit more of their liberty in return for the ALLEGED "more safety" promise.
Altho I will relent on the ages: 18 is an adult... I was thinking more along the lines of neighborhood kids making money the old-fashioned way: thru WORK. Which is a GOOD thing.
My neighbor's kids sell lemonade on their front lawn every summer. No harm, no foul. Now let's PLEASE hear the arguments about "public safety"... because I've read them before here.... ridiculous...pfft.....
Maybe we need an "ordinance" that says you can't use a leafblower, because your neighbor might have asthma and therefore it is a public health risk. Or, you can't mow your grass because the kid next door has allergies severe enough that he might go into anaphylactic shock- public health risk. Or that you can't burn wood in a fireplace or wood stove- that's pollution, a public health risk.
I would think the police would have BETTER things to do, and I know DAMN WELL our lawmakers have better things THEY SHOULD BE DEALING WITH.
This entire thread, as well as the topic is just plain ridiculous. Seriously, are we as a society that controlling that this subject even needs discussion? Every point and counter point just drives the point home that this is all about controlling others rather than individuals taking responsibility for themselves, or in the case of minors their parents approving the choices they make.
Oh that's right, collectively we are all too dumb to do anything on our own, to take any risks whatsoever (no matter how small those risks are), too selfish to deal with inquiries at our front door, and too dumb to make any decisions whatsoever on our own. Yeah, that should just about sum it up lol. ;-)
justintime Just because I am J Q Public I set up a table and let you sign up for a snow shoveing permit 20 dollars each and you must get your shovel inspected and a photo shop ID the line starts over there no wait over there lol
Caged Animal Yea, it is all BS.
But, it is really amazing just how much BS some people, especially about 20 miles ESE of us, will take.
So does this mean all the wrestlers from Centenary College shoveling for their neighbors should get a permit? Come one people! SERIOUSLY?
Christine What about the people who don't shovel their sidewalks? I thought this was an ordinance too.
We need some help to dig out. Between my husbands illness and my broken ankle we cant do it. Anyone out there willing to help? PM me!
Thank you for all th3e offers everyone! Thank you Kate S. you did a great job. Its great knowing people are always willing to help! Truly appreciate it!
Worry about the kids selling snow!Not the kids shoveling snow! Please this is petty,Mayberry RFD!
LoBo 
RU "Shouldn't these job opportunities be going to ISIS?"
I heard they are more interested in opportunities at a shopping mall.
Of course Jordan,just do t tell everyone. If you know a willing young person, and they DO NOT ADVERTISE you can ask him/her.
sientje smith looks like the State is doing something about it so this doesn't happen again. Good for them
http://www.nj.com/somerset/index.ssf/2015/03/right_to_shovel_bill_clears_state_senate_committee_1.html#incart_river
While it's nice to see this ridiculous "wrong" might be "righted", it still burns me up that we have to PAY these idiots to pass a law basically blocking an IDIOTIC law THEY already passed!!! What a racket!!
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