Hundreds Give Up U.S. Passports After New Tax Rules

I guess that wasn't to hard of a decision to make.

http://finance.yahoo.com/news/hundreds-u-passports-tax-rules-221636975.html

Old Gent Old Gent
Oct '14

Good.

mistergoogle mistergoogle
Oct '14

The ultra rich tax cheats left long ago. Better to not have to go chasing them down in a losing battle.


Ultra rich tax cheats? You mean the ones that had previously legalized their misdeeds in legislation that the general populous completely ignores? Recall that, according to most of us, if something is "legislated' then there's absolutely nothing wrong with it. Taxation to redistribute benefits, codified in legislation, is after all *never* theft. Never, ever, or so I've been told every time I point out that it really is.

Except, apparently, when the benefit is for corporations and wealthy business owners, and not for public welfare. Only then it is theft. Got it, check.

Given the mainstream mindset, I don't see what the problem is. ;-)

Or..... we could talk about scrapping the tax code as it exists now to get rid of all the exceptions made to provide benefits to those ultra rich meanies. What could possibly be wrong with a document containing over 5 million words...

justintime justintime
Oct '14

Before you know it, the 1 percent ers will be down to 1/2 %

Old Gent Old Gent
Oct '14

once again government regulations and over control and theft are incentivising outward migration.

this only hurts the poor over time, but the entrenched bureaucrats down in the beltway can't see past the i95 loop

a new tax code is sorely needed. and it needs to be falter with fewer deductions and lower overall rates.

and not a 'graduated' tax structure either, becuase that's unfair, it is really unfair,
please don't post the math again, it's not needed and doesn't; 'prove' any points, it's just a waste of space honestly.

because if a flat tax is unfair to the lower income brackets then the sales tax is just as unfair to the same groups and so are all the road tolls, the bridge tolls hit the lower economic classes harder than it does the so called 'rich' people. also all ticket prices are just as unfair to the same groups, movie/concerts tickets should be sold on a sliding scale so that we are sure not to treat the lower income brackets 'unfairly'? what utter hogwash that concept is.

btw the how come you can be 'uber' rich, but you cannot be 'uber' poor? what's up with that? (seems unfair again)

BrotherDog BrotherDog
Oct '14

This brings in close to $1B per year in taxes for money parked in Switzerland funding the Swiss way of life. So if the 1%-ers go to 1/2%, good. Not like they're leaving, it's just the paper trail. There's no migration, they're just attempting to continue to park the cash off shore.

Oh boy, the ole taxes is theft again. Of course at some level we need to raise revenue to provide basic public services like defense and roads. But already if you say yes to roads, then the only question is where you draw the line on public spending. I, for one, have no issue with public spending on even some silly things like space exploration, solar, etc. I mean we only have one spaceship Earth and it will just not suffice for our growing needs plus, speaking of defense, the best defense we could have would be another spaceship. Sure, we lose lots of money investing in something like solar on mistakes, false starts, etc. But if you're drilling for oil, there's gonna be some dry wells before you strike it rich. And sure shooting, the private sector isn't gonna jump start these things although in both cases, public spending has helped initiate private spending after a few decades.

That said, yes, I agree ---- tax code is too complicated, scrap it.

However, I have no issue with a prudent number of deductions and credits when we agree they are for the good of the nation, the good of our society like marriage deductions (makes for a better society), child deductions (kids are great), and education (educated people is smart societal planning).

But sure, we need to start over, it has turned into a complicate labyrinth of loopholes and paybacks. Yet if you believe in a Constitutional Republic, then taxes seem to be part of it or change the Constitution.

mistergoogle mistergoogle
Oct '14

Just think we are no longer are on the hook to protect them in foreign countries but I am sure they considered that. They just don't trust this country seeing how things are going. We cant even protect out embassy's.

Old Gent Old Gent
Oct '14

JIT +1 excellent points. The hypocrisy in politics/beliefs/legislation is something I have never understood (because it can not BE understood, when there are no principles involved, only emotions.)

JeffersonRepub JeffersonRepub
Oct '14

+1 JIT!

jjmonth4 jjmonth4
Oct '14

JIT - Just because taxation is not theft, it doesn't mean it's unjust or wrong which today's taxes are. Theft would mean there is no power to tax, which I'm sure you know is something specifically enumerated in the Constitution. The bad policy, the worse code, and the inequitable results are however not the issue with these tax cheats.

And yes, they are tax cheats. They are not claiming the Leona Helmsley defense of "No one can say I didn't pay my taxes, I paid $5 mill in taxes but just because it should have been $8 mill I think it's enough". Instead these people are saying they don't own the yacht they're sailing, they don't own the plane they're flying in, they don't own the 5 villas in Italy they stay in, it's all someone company in the Bahamas, or Singapore pulling the strings. It doesn't matter what tax code you use, that's fraud. That's Ferdinand Marcos saying he's poor and has no income, and if he does show him the bank account with his name on it. All the while knowing he transferred $40 mill to Swiss Banks under the name Merdinand Farcos.

I'm right with you on reining in spending and taxes *both* because one or the other isn't enough. Right there on dumping the awful tax code we have. But liars are liars - catch them or get out of our country, pure and simple.


"But liars are liars - catch them or get out of our country, pure and simple."

I'm right there with ya- criminals are criminals- catch all the illegal aliens and deport them, pure and simple. (while at the same time, reforming our immigration policy, of course).

JeffersonRepub JeffersonRepub
Oct '14

But if tax evasion is such a pressing problem why don't we address the "liars are liars" problem within our government, the one's who gifted the income in the first place through legislated corporate perks?

I'll ask this though: Why now? Why are people trying to "evade" paying taxes on their wealth now? From the article:

"The number of Americans renouncing U.S. citizenship increased 39 percent in the three months through September after rules that make it harder to hide assets from tax authorities came into force."

It's because the rules have changed, that what was once legal no longer is. I'm all for changing the rules, as you know, but also believe that changing the rules should never be prorated and changes should be applied moving forward only.

In that context, how can you call people tax cheats when they presumably operated completely within the law to achieve their wealth? I fault no one for protecting their personal assets.

Regarding taxation as theft, I won't get into that again. You know my feelings on this - the forceful taking at the point of a government gun is pretty darn unambiguous.

justintime justintime
Oct '14

I think there may be some faulty logic in some of this:

"if something is "legislated' then there's absolutely nothing wrong with it."
MG -- No, it means it's legal, not necessarily right or moral. But the sarcasm was funny.

"Taxation to redistribute benefits, codified in legislation, is after all *never* theft. Never, ever, or so I've been told every time I point out that it really is."
MG -- yes, and every time you note it's theft but necessary for some things, remember?

"Except, apparently, when the benefit is for corporations and wealthy business owners, and not for public welfare. Only then it is theft."
MG - All we want in this is for everyone to pay the going rate, according to the current law. Feel free to use all the existing loopholes you want (until they change the code), but now the law has changed and you can no longer hide US assets overseas as easily which was cheating legally and morally. Do you really have a problem with that?

"once again government regulations and over control and theft are incentivising outward migration. this only hurts the poor over time.
MG -- No one is migrating, they are changing their status only, so how does another $1B in tax revenue hurt the poor?

"and not a 'graduated' tax structure either, becuase that's unfair, it is really unfair,
please don't post the math again"
MG -- yeah, skip the math, tell us to not respond and then just drone on and on with your math-challenged strawman points.

"btw the how come you can be 'uber' rich, but you cannot be 'uber' poor? what's up with that? (seems unfair again)"
MG -- oh I am sure there are uber poor as well as many, many other classifications and labels for the poor. Ever hear of "the working poor?"

"I'm right there with ya- criminals are criminals- catch all the illegal aliens and deport them, pure and simple. (while at the same time, reforming our immigration policy, of course)"
MG -- yet another strawman using a different topic as an argument.

Just saying.

mistergoogle mistergoogle
Oct '14

That Bloomberg piece linked to from Yahoo was clear as mud. This summary of an NPR report is more edifying:

http://www.npr.org/blogs/parallels/2014/02/20/275937138/why-more-americans-are-renouncing-u-s-citizenship

The problem is not poor down trodden plutocrats seeking a safe haven for the money they stole, legitimately, from those widows and orphans, while creating jobs for you-and-me.

It's schlubs who happen to live in Europe, and can't keep a local bank account going because their bank does not want to deal with US government regulation.

MrCharlie
Oct '14

At least if you believe NPR :)

MrCharlie
Oct '14

MrCharlie that is the problem. The USA is as far as I know the only country in the world that makes you pay taxes living abroad. My parents live in Europe pay taxes over there and here although they don't use any benefits from the states only the country they live in. It's hard to pay double taxes and if you are sure you are not returning to the states , it's an emotional decision. My mom was born and raised in the states my great grandparents came to the states (1800 something ) her brothers,sister etc....are all here but she is thinking of giving up her US citizenship. Many of her friends already did it.
Like I said it is a very hard an emotional decision, in her heart she will always be American.
From my prospective, saying it's just the rich wanting to cheat is not right, there are many Americans that are not rich and are suffering with this new law.

NS108 NS108
Oct '14

Never theft, huh?

http://www.nytimes.com/2014/10/26/us/law-lets-irs-seize-accounts-on-suspicion-no-crime-required.html

This is the world we live in. A world where everyone is assumed guilty and must prove their innocence. Complete hogwash, and yet government agencies are getting away with it.

justintime justintime
Oct '14

BYE.

Really?
Oct '14

Wow, this is a pretty good one, getting very interesting, but it's muddy for sure. The law is trying to get at people who skirt tax laws by hiding, investing, or making money overseas, but it has trapped expats who are truly Americans working overseas mostly for pretty long periods of times --- run of the mill Americans, working and living abroad not really trying to end run US tax laws. That' bad. However, the concept of the law is good, it's the implementation that is failing.

First, to JIT's theory that all taxation is theft. Of course I don't agree, but at some level, US citizenship calls on all of us to ante up; it costs money to be a citizen no matter where you live. Fact of life and conceptually I don't have an issue, however the amount you pay and the complexity of paying is apparently onerous, burdensome, and now seemingly unfair in some cases.

An expat is expected to pay US taxes minus the taxes paid in their current country. That seems fair enough to hold their US citizenship. They should not have to face a tax labyrinth, be unable to us host country banks, or pay more in total than that if they were working and living in the US.

I have a number of investments overseas, US money making money off-shore. I pay US taxes and sometimes foreign taxes, it's onerous for sure. It's so complex that I can't really tell if I am paying too much compared to US investments, but it is the way it is and luckily not enough to make me do the work to really see what's happening. I just let Turbo Tax figure it out, make sure the number is relatively small, and move on.

Others strictly hide BIG money overseas, park it if you will, as a loophole to escape taxes. That's what the law supposedly targets and I have no issue getting these unAmericans. The "Mitt Romey's" of the world us this dodge to shield US profits and assets from US taxation. The live in the US and take US profits and basically hide the profits off-shore. http://www.rollingstone.com/politics/news/mitt-romney-s-tax-dodge-20121012. Now before you go off, Mitt's not necessarily evil, he's just taking advantage of current laws. That's where we need law and order to stop this behavior or punish it if perpetrators continue.

Corporations do a similar dodge, jiggling the books to take losses in the US while taking UNTAXED profits off-shore in tax-free countries. That's how GE took a huge global profit while taking a US loss and not paying taxes. http://www.nytimes.com/2011/03/25/business/economy/25tax.html?pagewanted=all

Again, they are not evil, they are just acting like business. And here I understand. At one point the US suffered mightily in global competition. So we "jiggered" the tax laws to make it highly profitable for US corporations to compete off-shore by not taxing the profits. However, we are global now and this practice needs to stop.

The law targets individuals doing what Mitt is doing (corporations are another whole set of tax laws), but it has snared US citizens working and living abroad mostly for extended periods of time. Also, in trying to enforce the law, the US has burdened foreign banks by making them comply with data requests; must put a real smear on the Swiss when depositors from any country realize the Swiss are turning records over to other countries. Targeting these US citizens, making paying US taxes a nightmare, is wrong IMHO.

On JIT's other topic, obviously using a law intended to trap criminals to trap hard working Americans is stupid. Guilty until you prove your innocence with asset seizures on top should be illegal. Period. The IRS of late also twists it's law so that in some cases, the 3 or 6-year law (don't hold me to the exact number, it seems to change), does not apply and not only do they go back forever, but again they seize assets first and make you prove innocence later. Even when the Bush rebate occurred, even for those small sums, the IRS often took payments and penalties from the rebate basically leaving you powerless to fight them since basically it was free money and, more important, it was already seized. A relative of mine got caught by this and it was the only time, in many personal cases of penalties, that I have ever seen one actually stick. While just a small amount for the individual, I bet it was billions to the government.

So, bottom line. The CONCEPT of many of these laws is good. Trapping criminals, making those who cleverly use the law to hide US assets and profits off-shore, seems a good idea. Trapping hard working Americans who have paid their taxes and making their lives miserable, confiscating assets, etc. is not good.

Amazingly one would think that we have IRS accountants smart enough to write the laws, monitor and control the enforcement, to avoid or fix these problems. Apparently not.

mistergoogle mistergoogle
Oct '14

And this is the same Department (IRS) that's going to handle Obama Care.

Old Gent Old Gent
Oct '14

By "handle," you mean enforce penalties for folks not picking up insurance, but point taken.

mistergoogle mistergoogle
Oct '14

Many of the same people complaining about the rich are in the line for the lottery trying to become one of them. If they win they can complain about themselves, to themselves in the mirror.

Now, what were the mega millions numbers for Friday?

MeisterNJ MeisterNJ
Oct '14

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