Sale of Panther Valley Golf & CC
I recently heard about the possible sale of Panther Valley Golf course to the Panther Valley Property Owners Association. Does anyone have any additional information regarding this matter other then the little blip that is in this months Panther?
It is my understanding that it is currently a Private Equity club. I'm not sure exactly how that works or the specifics.
I understand Jade has expressed interest in the property. I heard they want to cut it back to a nine hole public course. In the front portion they are proposing a mini mall with a Trader Joe's, Golden Corral & a Mega CVS. Possibly a Bottle King & adult book store.
uh not exactly Ignatz- lets not spread a totally wierd rumor - but apparently there is consideration of purchase of the club--the property cannot be developed---however...........
There is no way they would develop over 9 holes of that course.
It's one of the best in the state.
I did hear that the general manager went to a private club in Long Valley. Sounds like they might have some financial issues.
Wow Ignatz almost the same exact post as the Minebrook Golf Club, except they are getting a Wegmans and a Lobster Shack and we are getting a liquor store and an adult bookstore. Must have been hard to come up with something original.
I could see the GM of PV leaving for the private club in LV. Chance to work with David Glenz, who used to be the Director of Instruction up at Crystal Springs until they decoded to go with David Leadbetter.
And 2 yrs ago (?) I recall seeing a sign outside of PV saying that memberships were available to the public; pretty good indicator to me that their were in fact financial issues.
The changes in Panther Valley and the golf course makes a difference in Hackettstown. Really?
Actually HtownForum I know quite a few people who live in Hackettstown, who are members at the golf course/country club so it wiill affect them. Yes REALLY!
Wow why all the snarkiness tonite. I asked a simple question, you dont like the post don't read it and move on.
a few of us - maybe more - have concern about the concept that the homeowner's association would consider buying/running the club - certainly something I would fight for a huge number of reasons...............also concerned that many residents may not pay much attention to what's going on and this is important
HtownForum - I live in Panther Valley and the last time I checked my mailing address says Hackettstown so we have every right to post on this forum and ask questions about the surrounding area.
Chasing a little white ball around a golf course is so important? Sorry, I have better things to do.
Yeah, .... better things to do .... like post snarky comments on an online forum ....
Htown - aside from what has already been said - this has nothing to do with golf and everything to do with property and ownership- you don't need to respond as it clearly has nothing to do with you - and yes there are over 1800 residents/families here so we are certainly a significant part of the Hackettstown population
And the kids that live in PV go to H'town public schools. (If their mommies dont send them to private)
I'd fight PVPOA as buyer for more reasons than I can write here - if any other PV residents are interested in my list of reasons/questions, or interested in preparing to fight it if necessary, please email me.
I have some serious concerns regarding this matter. Where is the money going to come from to make this purchase, to upgrade/maintain the buildings along with the property? To afford the salaries necessary to run a golf course/country club? Are our monthly dues going to be raised because of this? Membership at the club is down, which is why they are offering all of these specials to join. They are obviously in financial trouble and now the PVPOA is thinking of taking on this endeavor. I would think that they should be having special meetings to discuss this with the residents of Panther Valley before anything is decided.
Smartest idea would be for PVPOA to run the course as semi-private. Offer memberships at discounted rates to PV residents as well as day rates for the public.
The course is gorgeous, drive past it every day but there is very little play, except for the weekends. And the few times I've tried to play it as a prospective member, the current staff have been less than inviting.
So it remains, the hanging bunch of grapes to my King Tantalus in a pond.
What happens if it closes. Aren't they the biggest tax payer and employer in the Township. I guess we'll pay more taxes....
The GM at Panther Valley was a crook and added to there problems good riddances. He bleed that club dry that's why he left.
The simplest solution is to make it a public course. However being in a gated community that wouldn't be feasible.
You might to have entertain the fact that Panther Valley is a Hackettstown mail address. You are residents of Allamuchy Township.
That's some strong accusations you are making MR. If you have nothing to back it up I would be very careful. Slander has been known to be very costly.
Inflammatory remarks from M R should be taken down. Pointing fingers is one thing, but dragging the golf prof, who was the General Manager into stealing is ridiculous.
Just cut this thread at this point, before lawsuits crop up with slander.
The GM was just recognized by the PGA with a National Award.
as I understand it, the thread was set up as a place to share information about possible sale of the golf course - and concerns/ facts as related to PV residents -
Other comments are not relative to the conversation
PV golf club is THE largest real estate taxpayer in Allamuchy. Additionally, if a deal with our homeowners group took place versus it failing, it would retain our home values and more likely, increase them over time as homes here change hands And some type of access for us is connected to our homes' deeds. I really can't see the downside for us.
Its great compared to what?They want to much money for to little course! Panther Valley at one time , was the place to live,now its the place to leave.
Htown Forum --- WHY SO ANGRY? Panther Valley residents are a large part of the Hackettstown community. Go troll someplace else.
If PVPOA buys the course, it’s the best thing for all the residents as we will have automatic access to a club we never did before and PVPOA will control how it’s run. I don’t know why people see it being purchased by PVPOA as a bad thing. Sure the Mattar’s can purchase it, but they don’t have any experience in maintaining a property so large. The restaurant will be fantastic given their history at the Mattar’s restaurant down the street from us and Macaluso’s in Hawthorne. At least PVPOA knows what ground’s keeping requires and having Matt Begley as the GM for everything will be beneficial.
The land cannot be renovated into anything but what it is as per the Deed by Allamuchy. It cannot be turned into condos; it cannot be anything but a golf course. If PV goes under, all of us who live in the PV gates will see our home values decrease tremendously. The taxes that PV pays will become our responsibility. I’m sorry but that’s not a bill that I’d like to pay.
As for the GM being a crook, I know that’s not possible. He doesn’t control the money; their board does. Their board has been through so many people and the one’s left on it are malicious and liars. He couldn’t steal a dime if he tried. As much as I interacted with him, he was always one of the kindest people and did recently win a National Award. I think he foresaw the inevitable and got out while he could to save himself and his reputation as a professional PGA member. I’ve heard many rumors about him, but that’s all they are: rumors.
Tick Tock - how much is it in the red? how big a loan would the association need to take to buy and renovate it? how big would our assessments be to cover the loan? why do you think the association could make it more successful? how are other clubs in the area doing now? why would I want to pay for something I won't use? How many homeowners would be hurt by increased monthly maintenance and an assessment to pay back a loan? I've been through the loan process in an association -and this was for necessary repair/replacement. There was no choice. In addition every homeowner would benefit. Nonetheless the board, which I was on, held a number of meetings - held at a very large room we rented so there would be room for all - and we sent out numerous information sheets as well. We also made sure, through extra mailings, that we received the legally required number of votes before proceeding. In this case there was a 3 mil. loan to tear down and rebuild over 500 decks. Assessments would last 15 years for those who chose not to pay the roughly $15000 each in one payment. Oh and yes it did make it harder to sell a residence unless you had prepaid the entire assessment. Lets think abut this. Does a homeowners association want to operate a business - and figure out how to get it out of the red, update it, advertise it, staff it - leaving the full financial cost and risk to homeowners?
I don’t know how much it is in the red, but in the end, it’s a vote that’d be up to us to make. If you don’t find it necessary to keep something so beautiful in your backyard, then be ready to see your home value diminish quickly. I’d rather them take back the assessments they just reduced. There are 1,800+ homes in this association, so to spread that monthly across the board for each of us for even just to pay back $2,000,000 (estimated figure I'm using) for 15 years would be roughly $7 extra a month. If you can’t afford that, then you shouldn't own a house in my book. I’m sure, with a little research, you will see that golf courses are a luxury and it’s hard to keep them in business as people are eliminating luxuries from their budgets. All across the country there are golf courses closing. In this case, it’s just about revamping that place as I would prefer to have access to the club just to use the restaurant or their pools when ours get packed. And I don’t know many people due to my crazy work schedule so it’d be an opportunity to get to know people that live right around the corner from me. I most certainly won’t golf, but knowing I have access is always a plus as maybe they’ll let me bring guests out. I don’t know what the deal will be like, and what it’ll include but I look forward to being informed at future meetings about it. I would like to see the business plan that incorporates their generation of revenue, how they are going to advertise, if they are going to hire new staff or use the existing, and how the home owners will benefit from this (besides our housing value). My assumption is we will get use if we are footing the bill; what kind of access? Will we be able to golf? Use the restaurant? Etc. Also, what is their contingency plan should their initial plan fall through?
Hefty membership fees were not enough to keep it going - so why would we be able to use the facilities without paying hefty fees?? No one is suggesting the property go to seed - and it can't be developed - ideally purchase by an outside group happen - no risk or extra expense to us.............
If the course wasn't viable due to hefty membership fees, maybe the idea of making it semi-private where fees are lowered for members (who would still have golf priority and other perks) and allowing the public to play in limited numbers per day would work.
I have no idea if that is a potential plan or not, but the course rarely looked to be very busy and could probably stand up to more rounds played on a weekly basis.
Does anybody know how many rounds are played their each week? Can the maintenance crew already employed manage and handle an increase in players?
This isn't going to be a simple solution, and I hope those who are given the power to make decisions know all of the correct questions to ask beforehand.
D-ManPV - this nature of decision belongs to all of us who are PV residents...........some significant percent of homeowners would have to vote before anything like this could be done ---and I have so many questions................. oh and I have never seen more than a few people on the course except when they're running some kind of rare event
I think that there are some pretty good points and questions being thrown out there. I am hoping that we see a large turnout at the next board meeting to discuss this matter further.
oh ok - got worried that someone else was advertising for employees there-thanks Christine--I would imagine this is the normal time to crank up for spring
So in a time where golf rounds are down nearly 20% over the last 10 years and costs of maintaining a golf property have increased over the same period, it would be an intelligent purchase for a group with no knowledge of running a golf property to make such a large purchase? Look at the numbers being put out by the National Golf Foundation. The economic environment surrounding golf would tell anyone in their right mind that this is not a smart purchase. The NGF numbers are all searcheable on the web. The market is over-saturated with golf courses. That is a fact. The surrounding area will not support as many clubs as there are and until some of them go away, clubs will continue to struggle. Not a smart purchase
There is a board meeting tomorrow evening at 7:30. Hope to see a good turn out there.
Tomorrow is the work session - not sure if we'll get to speak - next Wednesday is the regular monthly meeting. Several of my immediate neighbors and I will certainly be attending along with JrzyGirl. We have very strong concerns about current issues. I hope others will come out.
5catmom - If you would, could you share what your concerns are? I am not (and have never been) a member of the club and am trying to form an opinion but don't really have much information.
Lindsay ~ if you read through the thread you will see lots of concerns. Some people seem to support the idea, others seem to be against it. Unfortunately none of the residents have very much information, which is why it is going to be so important to attend these next few meetings so we can get the proper information to make sound decisions.
Lindsay - here are some of the concerns and questions---I sent a letter for the Panther and heard that it is not being published - seems they plan to answer some themselves in it---hmmmmm
"It is my understanding that the PVPOA Board is seriously considering purchase of the Panther Valley Golf Club. This causes me extreme concern. I have many questions about this.
1. How many PV households were members in 2013, 2012, and 2011? What percent of total population does that represent?
2. How many new households would want to use the facilities if it were owned by PVPOA?
3. What does it cost annually to operate the club?
4. How far in the red is the club now?
5. Why do you think you could operate the club better, and how would you find enough members to cover all operating and capital expenses?
6. What percent of homeowners have to vote on this matter to make a quorum? And what would you do if enough votes were not cast?
7. What size loan would be needed to purchase and update the club? How big an assessment would be needed to pay off the loan?
8. What would happen if you couldn’t find enough members to cover expenses?
9. What is currently happening in the area with memberships to such clubs? Is their membership growing or shrinking?
10. Why would I want to pay for something I have no intentions of using?
11. What are the legalities of making such a purpose - and loan - re bylaws - % of votes
12. How many units are currently unable to pay dues? How much does it cost us to cover what they are not paying?
13. Why would an association of residential homeowners want to take on the risk of business ownership?
14. When will there be a WELL PUBLICIZED Homeowners Meeting to discuss this matter? Special letters must go out if this is a serious consideration."
Mattar has made an offer. I hope he purchases it. He knows how to run a business really well.
Golf courses are closing in large amounts. Easy research. There are too many around. Being a private club makes it worse. There are too many courses, a bad economy, and it's not a thriving business right now anywhere in NJ.
If the Mattar family buys it, they will bring in a whole new management team to take over. It is an entire organization and not just a facility for a clubhouse. It is a massive undertaking, since it's in the red. I don't understand how members let it happen.
I don't know how many members there are that are in Panther Valley itself, but I don't think they could carry the club financially. It's pretty to look at, but high maintenance.
apparently a vote is being taken by the powers that be of the golf course next week on Mattar's offer ---works for me!
Mattar knows how to run a restaurant and banquet hall. He doesn't have experience running a golf course. Very different undertaking.
Experienced personnel would have to be hired by anyone who has not already been in the golf course business- no different than a residential community trying to run a restaurant and golf course
It isn't just Mattar's offer that is on the table now, although PVPOA withdrew their offer there is another offer from a group based out of Hong Kong.
The Golf Club was presenting offers to members I believe last night and the vote will take place on whose offer to accept.
I missed the meeting this past week. I'm sure the latest was probably discussed, but unfortunately not too many people attend so I didn't get to hear anything. Maybe someone else went and they have information they can share
The phone number for the Country Club is 850-0800. Since you were not at the meeting I'm sure you can get the facts.
Thanks Samuel but I was referring to the Homeowners Association meeting not the Country Club members meeting.
ok ok the club accepted Mattar's offer...............I don't think it's final until all the ducks are in a row - bank stuff and all..................I bet you all knew that already.
New blood if they get rid of the people running it. Bad news if it's kept the same. I don't think the problem was the actual food. From what I hear that's great stuff. Maybe if they got some top notch management they can turn that place around. It's been long suffering, but has so much potential. Unfortunately, Mattars is a food business, not a golf business.
Mattar is an excellent businessman. I believe he will hire the 'right' people to run the golf course.
I agree Mrs. Pipes. I don't think he would take on this endeavor if he didn't feel he could surround himself with the qualified people to run that part of the business.
Was the sale contingent upon keeping the club private? Or can the new owners do whatever they like to make sure it's profitable?
no such contingency - but I am certain there are many things to be decided and worked out.....better to ask the parties involved ---
I wish them a lot of luck. It's May 1st and they need to get things together or the golf members will be looking at other clubs to join.
Maybe they will stop changing the sand traps now,and it can be a Robert Trent course,like it should be, that was the draw.The Country Club,oh well enough said.Open it to the public,the town could use a good course, well managed.Keeping Panther Valley as a gated community is of no value !
Lobo, of no value to who? It seems to me the homeowners bought there because they preferred the gated community. The golf course is definitely one of the best in the area...and Mattar(and his brothers) are very astute businessmen . Quite possibly they will make the course open to the public in some limited way while protecting the rights of the members and the residents, that remains to be seen.
Lobo ~ you seem so unhappy living in Panther Valley, the snow, the golf course, the Country Club, the gates... why do you stay?
http://www.hackettstownlife.com/forum/615507 you are correct, Curiously. There was another thread about it.
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