Bergen Tool- CVS approved

So I’m starting a new thread since the other one was way too long and given last night's meeting the other thread is no longer relevant.

After some discussion from the Town Engineer and the board, the Phase 1 portion of the project was approved. That includes the sub-division of the lot and the approval of the CVS plans. So CVS is moving in. Some members of the board voice their concerns of approving the sub-division without having a real commitment regarding phase 2 but in the end all but 1 board member voted to approve the plan

So Phase 1 will include:

1) The widening and lowering of E Stiger
2) The installation of a larger pipe going from Main to 1st St on E Stiger and the installation of curbs on E. Stiger
3) The CVS building and the parking lot
4) Underground holding tank(s)? Under the CVS parking lot
5) The Streetscape along Main and E Stiger
6) A highland's approved ditch along Main St
7) The removal of all but 1 existing building on the site. With the removal of the main Bergen bldg done in a way to preserve and reuse as many bricks as possible which will be used in the Phase 2 buildings.
8) The area where the old Bergen bldgs were will be graded and have turf which will capture some of the runoff the currently goes thru the Bergen site
No timetable was given to when we should expect this to finally start

Phase 2 was presented in conceptual form only last night with the formal application being 45-60 from being filed.

I'm sure Darrin will tell me something I listed above is incorrect but this is what I got from the meeting last night.

darwin darwin
Oct '13

Darwin, you should stop being so negative, I only tell you that you are wrong when you really are, you have it pretty spot on this time.

Here is my post from the old forum

Well, CVS got approval last night with the provision that the surrounding bergen buildings have to be knocked down before CVS can get their certificate of occupancy.

I really appreciated Mr. Burke fighting for the residents in trying to get the retention pond done in phase one, it would of definitely helped, but according to the town engineer, with the ADDITION of grading changes and a big temporary grass area, plus a temporary retaining pond, phase 1 will still be a approvement to the current flooding situation.

Unfortunately CVS was not willing to work with the board and put in the retention pond or wait to have the developer put in the phase 2 retention pond before CVS, and they made it very clear that if approval was not given tonight they would be backing out. Our board being the soggy folding deck of cards they are, agreed to the plan, with the exception of Mr. Burke, which again I strongly appreciate what he was saying. Anything they can do to help the situation should of been done, but obviously that was not CVS's concern.

A lot of changes were made to the plan over time, and many I voiced, which I am very happy with, so overall it was a win :-)

I was definitely not happy that Mrs. Brown practically offered the 3 acres of open space for use as a retention pond. The residents were promised 3 acres of open space, now they are saying the possibility of a jogging track with a muddy unusable center, I don't see how this is right. But then again phase 2 was only a discussion, no plans have been put to it.

Darwin i appreciated you introducing yourself to me, it was nice to finally get to meet you.

Darrin Darrin
Oct '13

That's kind of ridiculous,
Why another Drug Store?

HappyMom1031
Oct '13

Fyi if I am not mistaken, cvs now goes to town concil for approval, sure it will probally get approved, but that is the next step, just because they were approved at the board meeting doesn't nessicarialy mean they are "moving in".

Also, cvs has to hash out with the developer the destruction of the current buildings to get their CO, as cvs said, that was unforseen.

I think this condition is extreamly good, it keeps the developer from being able to develop cvs and run leaving the rest of the property clean up

Darrin Darrin
Oct '13

I don't think the board folded, I think the problem from the start was they allowed there to be only 1 application. They were doing the process all wrong. They should have requested at the very least a joint application for phase 1 and 2. Or 1 application for the entire site and then listened to the sub-division application. CVS was right to argue they way they did last night and that was the problem. Phase 2 has not submitted an application yet.

The only reason we knew anything about phase 2 is because CVS/Jade introduced it into evidence, which was a dumb legal move on their part. You can't present evidence in trial and then at the end tell the jury to disregard that 1 piece of evidence when you make you decision because that evidence is really for another trial.

But even with Phase 1 there are 2 parties involved. CVS with what they will do to E Stiger and their lot. And Jade (Rice) on what he is doing with the remaining bldgs. Both should have been up there at the same time last night to address the board

Did you see Rice pass a note to the CVS lawyer and the lawyer’s reaction? It was pretty funny.

darwin darwin
Oct '13

If you ask me, Ray Rice should concentrate on football... he's KILLING one of my fantasy teams (-;

ianimal ianimal
Oct '13

LOL well then the lawyer was stupid not to bring Rice up there.

I have no doubt the town council will approve the CVS. I believe their main concern is with Phase 2 and that is we as residents should be focusing on now.

We need to know the exact amount of retail space they are proposing and the types of retail they looking to get to fill that space. I for one would be interested in outlet type stores. I think those types of stores will succeed in our town and have a long tenture rather than popup stores that come and go. God knows we don't need more empty retail space in town. They will bring in people from outside our town to spend money here instead of crossing the border into PA. Once we bring in people from surrounding areas to shop, they'll stay and eat and shop on Main St which is a good thing.

Also with the residential portion of the bldgs we need to know are they going to be rentals or condos. We need to know what the pricing of the condos/apartments are going to be in. low income/mod/ higher end, ect?

Because no matter how nice the building will look, what goes inside them will determine if it is an added value to the town or not.

And finally we need to see what the proposed back of the lot will look like and if it will benefit the residents or not.

darwin darwin
Oct '13

Fyi the letter to the laywer read do you need my help -ray, I saw it when I was up for public comment.

I said it from the beginning that the seperation of the property was dangerous, but with the new addition of the buildings needing to be removed before CVS can get a CO, we should be protected. Just be on the lookout for the developer trying to get out of that

Darrin Darrin
Oct '13

Darwin, although outlets are a great idea, I feel this are of town just cannot handel that amount of traffic, have u ever gone to the pa one during the weekend? You cannot even get off the exit from route 80

Darrin Darrin
Oct '13

Too bad the bricks weren't incorporated into Phase 1. Hate to see them punt that one down the road and would have liked to see them used in the front part of the development.

And glad to see it moving forward, and right, Phase II should be the focus.

Anyone ever get the remediation reports?

mistergoogle mistergoogle
Oct '13

i'm not saying turn it into a full blown outlet. I am suggesting we get stores in there that people will shop. We don't need another nail salon, baber shop, pet store, pizza parlor,etc.

We need stores that will last that we don't already have.

Brand stores with brand loyalty that will get people to come. Use the outlets, the shops around the Rockaway mall and the Streets of Chester as inspiration. Rather then turn this into another strip mall you'd see in Budd Lake.

darwin darwin
Oct '13

Ok, I see where you are coming from. We still need to keep it in perspective that there are homes on east stiger, and this road should never become a full blown highway, respect has to be given to the homeoeners that live there. If this amount of traffic is to be added, annother light at the other end of the property will need to be added, unfortunatly, as it will hurt the flow of traffic even more on 46

Darrin Darrin
Oct '13

it's the darwin & Darrin show!

Lori...since '73 Lori...since '73
Oct '13

Well, maybe this will help the CVS/Shop Rite parking situation in Mansfield...that's right, a PARKING issue!

mammadone mammadone
Oct '13

The statement made Phase II (AFFORDABLE HOUSING) and the suggestion made" "what will the homeowners prefer the retention pond or the recreation field"....personally I'm 100% certain that the existing homeowners bordering the ball field would prefer it to be keep as an open field and developed as a recreational field and after they were already told that it was to be keep as a recreation field by the Mayor and something the developer confirmed last night..

pampur pampur
Oct '13

One persons problem will be migrated to make annorthers problem, no real solution. Happier people on one side of town and unhappy on the other.

Darrin Darrin
Oct '13

So my prediction was right they got approval. LOL!

Thanks for the info Darwin.

Christine Christine
Oct '13

The neighborhood over there will be going downhill. More people will be using those thru streets to get to Main. More loitering will happen as well. I guess that's progress.

neighborhood watcher
Oct '13

Lol.... Its not a bad thing chirstine, the neighbors pretty much got what we were asking for, give or take a few things. The journey begins.

Darrin Darrin
Oct '13

pampur posted:
"what will the homeowners prefer the retention pond or the recreation field"....
Why not take a lesson from the new apartments on Rt. 57 where the retention basin was built with large plastic half pipe that is now covered with lawn, which by the way, in the case of Bergen, could remain recreation fields.

wcguy wcguy
Oct '13

This is what the board was suggesting, the concern is that with the amount of water running into the area, how ofter will the basin have water in it, and the park is then unusable

Darrin Darrin
Oct '13

MG the use of the bricks in Phase 2 looks pretty good from the initial drawings. Plus they are going to try to use some of the beams too. They looked into using some of the old lights but they were too inefficient. Same with the timber inside the buildings but they were they wrong type of lumber.

darwin darwin
Oct '13

lights are very easily re-worked to be up to new code and new efficiency......just sayin

also you made this mention:
The only reason we knew anything about phase 2 is because CVS/Jade introduced it into evidence, which was a dumb legal move on their part. You can't present evidence in trial and then at the end tell the jury to disregard that 1 piece of evidence when you make you decision because that evidence is really for another trial.

Which I completely agree with you. The developer all along has been presenting evidence from phase 2, claiming what will be fixed and what will be done. But then when the town turned around and said hey that's a great idea, can we do it in phase one, they were completely un-willing to make any changes, even if it was a huge benefit to the town.

I see no reason the retention pond couldn't of been put in. It has already been said by the developer that the bigger pipe they are putting in on east stiger is for Phase 2 to tie into. If the developer is already planning of the retention pond, why was it so hard to compromise for the good of the town after the town has again and again compromised for the good of the developer?

Darrin Darrin
Oct '13

Good for us/them on the bricks, hope it works out.

mistergoogle mistergoogle
Oct '13

I don't know how proposed retention pond will look but I can tell you my own experience living by the detention basin. It's the wetland with wild plants/weeds growing and wild animals living. It's cut/moved only once a year (at least in the development where I live as per our township, not Hackettstown, ordinance to preserve wild life). Very unpleasant looking.


Darrin all this agreeing with me is freaking me out.

Obviously the developer needs the CVS $ from the sub-division to pay for the construction of Phase 2. That is why they wouldn't commit to the retention pond with Phase 1. And that was Mr. Burke mentioned in the meeting. That the board should not consider the cost to the developer when making their decision. If they thought it was in the best interest of the town then they should have made the developer put the retention basin in with phase 1 and let the developer worry about how to pay for it.

darwin darwin
Oct '13

We have a retention pond in my neighborhood. Its mowed once a week and we get water in it maybe 3 or 4 times a year. During really bad storms. We have never flooded and always looks nice. The ones by Weiss always look nice and are well kept also. Playing on it would be hard IMO. When there is water in it no way you can play in it. Well my dogs do but that's another story.

Christine Christine
Oct '13

Lol, I told you we could eventually get along

"And that was Mr. Burke mentioned in the meeting. That the board should not consider the cost to the developer when making their decision. If they thought it was in the best interest of the town then they should have made the developer put the retention basin in with phase 1 and let the developer worry about how to pay for it."

Yes completely agreed, it was mentioned that the retention pond would be a big improvement and a big help to the town, but with the addition of removing the other buildings and a temporary retention area, we are basically getting the same concept, and as the town engineer said, with this new concept we will have a slight improvement. My concern was that raising the CVS property did not force their water onto the residents, and with this plan, they should not be.

Nothing for nothing, but I am sure CVS threatening that if their project was even as much as delayed by 6 months by this retention pond idea they would be backing out, even if the town was making the developer do it not CVS. CVS implied some bullying tactics to our board and as usual got their way.

We now need to make sure the old buildings are removed and this temporary pond is built not to far after the site being raised. Obviously they go had in hand, so I do not expect them to make the pond first, as all the grading has to be done on the site, but I also do not want to see it be the last thing they do.

Christine, retention ponds vary from owner to owner, some are well kept, others look like marshes.

Darrin Darrin
Oct '13

Stormwater management basins vary mainly due to site conditions.

"Retention basins" are placed in areas with a shallow water table and have a permanent pool of water and usually an aerator to prevent stagnation.

"Detention basins" are built in uplands areas and detain water temporarily during a storm and release it slowly afterwards and are completely dry most of the time.

You also have "constructed wetlands" basins that don't have a large, deep permanent pool of water, but is usually wet and marshy except in times of severe drought.

Detention basins can and should be mowed, usually once a month between April and October; retention basins are usually mowed along the bank and berm as well. Constructed wetlands-type basins are usually left to themselves to attain a more natural state.

ianimal ianimal
Oct '13

Aren't the technical names mosquito swamps and mud pits?

Detention basins are indeed the pits; a blight upon any residential neighborhood. At least in a development, it's one pit per neighborhood. Forcing them on individually built single-family homes really drops the value. "Yes, in your beautiful new how you only have to mow that huge depression in your front yare once a month between April and October unless it rains in which case kiss your mower goodbye. Might I suggest a ring of hedges? Oh by the way, did I mention the sand mound septic in the back?

I realize the need and benefit but man, wish there was a prettier way. We used to drain swamps and fill mud holes.

mistergoogle mistergoogle
Oct '13

LMAO "
A lot of changes were made to the plan over time, and many I voiced, which I am very happy with, so overall it was a win :-) "

Darrin are you kidding me? I can't wait to see you shopping in the CVS! Or are you still planning to drive out of town? Your 15 minutes of fame has passed.

Just back from vacation and am very happy the CVS was approved.

townie jim townie jim
Oct '13

town jim, your immaturity was just shown and you should be very embarrassed, I am not even going to entertain arguing with you, as it is old news now.

You constantly try to start havoc in a forum, CVS is approved and we move on.

The changes the surrounding residents were requesting, were all somehow implemented, so it is not a bad thing that cvs got approved, as I told you before, I was never against the idea of CVS, I was concerened with how they wanted to do it.

Had you been at the meeting you would of heard our town engineer mention my name numerous times in his professional opinion speech and say how I was a big help to the town in providing information that led them to make changes to the plans that will benefit the towns situation.

And to answer you question, no I will not be shopping at CVS, I support our town's local businesses, not chain stores that try to drive small mom and pop shops out of town.

Darrin Darrin
Oct '13

The meeting at Town Hall was very open and well done.
I want to thank everyone for the input both the Planning Bd and the public.
Charlie

Charlie Charlie
Oct '13

"We now need to make sure the old buildings are removed and this temporary pond is built not to far after the site being raised. Obviously they go had in hand, so I do not expect them to make the pond first, as all the grading has to be done on the site, but I also do not want to see it be the last thing they do."

the temporary pond was the Town engineer's recommendation but CVS clearly stated they will not be digging a hole when the grade the area of Phase 1 so i wouldn't expect to see that temporary pond when the buildings get knocked down. All that was agreed to was the buildings will come down with Phase 1 and the area will the buildings were will be graded and have turf on top.

The only time we are going to see a retention basin is in Phase 2,

darwin darwin
Oct '13

seriously? I must of missed that. Thats not good! I thought the town engineer said they had to incorporate a temporary pomnd, and that was the reason the buildings had to come down

The town engineer made it very clear that the situation would improve only if that was incorporated

I will call the town engineer to confirm this info.

Darrin Darrin
Oct '13

yea the CVS attorney said they weren't going to dig a hole in Phase 1. Then later said the ground was basically already graded.

But then again the area being graded is on the Jade portion of the Phase 1 so maybe they agreed to the temp pond when they knock down the buildings but i didn't hear that in the meeting.

The town engineer stated he would like to see the temp pond but i don't believe anyone agreed to it and i don't believe the board made that a requirement in their vote

Only thing made certain is the buildings need to come down and the area needed to be graded and turfed before CVS can move in and start business

darwin darwin
Oct '13

Ok, if I have the time, tommorrow I will call paul and find out for us. I see no other reason to take down the other buildings other then to grade the area into a temporary pond in the grass area, and yes, it is on jade considering this property is outside of cvs's subdivision. I know in the map that paul showed me during the meeting it showerd this temporary pond, thats why i question it so much, especially being if I would of heard cvs say they were not going to put in the temp pond, I would of certainly had something to say about that.

If this is in fact the case it seems like CVS has absolutly no care abouty the surrounding residents and how we will be affected by the project.

Darrin Darrin
Oct '13

At the meeting, the engineer admitted that the first pond would do little to improve the water problem.
I do not agree with taking away the open space to make this pond.
It must be carefully planned and the complete east and west side must be overviewed.
This rain on Friday may tell some answers. I hope the engineer for Hackettstown will go out and monitor the rain even though we had a dry fall.
A drain at High and Fourth St. going to the brook that cuts through Miller St. will help with the water that comes from Stiger and Fourth ST.
This was to be looked into years ago.
Now it is important to study this easy fix.
Charlie

Charlie Charlie
Oct '13

Darwin, I just got off the phone with our town engineer Paul Sterbenz and I was correct, he said they are grading in a temporary retaining area in the turf that will be attained when the remaining buildings are removed. He said the area is basically already at the grade needed, and a few changes need to be made to make this work, so in a way we were both correct, but CVS certainly has to do something.


So to clear things up, as per my conversation with our town engineer, there will be grading changes done to the current plans to make a temporary retaining area in the turf area of CVS, that sits about at the current level of the property, to keep water from pushing onto Bergen street or stiger street from the grading changes CVS will be doing to the front of the lot.

Darrin Darrin
Oct '13

What I would really like to know is why CVS was willing to throw it all away if they even had to wait for jade (the property owner) to put in a retention pond. Forget the fact of asking cvs to put in the pond, I knew that would never happen, as it was not really cvs's issue, but, Do you think this was actually true? that they would of wasted the 100's of thousands of dollars it took them to get to this point with our town, or do you think it was a scare tactic?

If they were actually going to back out, why would they do that over a retention pond? Were they in that much of a rush?

Darrin Darrin
Nov '13

Despite the fact that I was pulling for a 4th Quick Chek ... I'm pleased to hear that the town put their heads together to approve a business this town so desperately needs ... yet another pharmacy/convenience store. As if the other 15 we have in a 2.3 mile radius aren't enough to serve our small area. I'm confident that this 'well thought out' decision will be responsible for more vacant buildings with "For Rent" signs in the front windows.

This decision is almost as impressive as when they approved an Eckert and a Rite-Aid approximately 80 ft from each other. Hmmm ... let's think ... how did that work out?

I love this town ... but ... decisions like this leave me concerned.

Pardon my sarcasm ... this decision makes no sense.

Maureen
Nov '13

townie jim- you should move to another town. we don't need another drug store period - it's just a greedy land grab by the people whom wrecked welsh farms. one man died taking that down and one building has gone up that nobody can live in and the other building went up and had to be taken down. first pals cabin and soon american sawmills and lockwood tavern .... whats to be removed next .... the ringwood manor ?

mittens
Nov '13

This decision is almost as impressive as when they approved an Eckert and a Rite-Aid approximately 80 ft from each other. Hmmm ... let's think ... how did that work out?

actually it worked out quite well for awhile. I guess you knew those 2 companies were going to merge one day. It was no different than putting 2 gas stations across the street from one another, or putting a BK next to a McDonalds... the only reason it didn't wotk out was because the 2 companies merged. Hardly something you can blame the town for.

darwin darwin
Nov '13

Is there a mitten's-code-book so I can decipher this cryptogram?

Bergen Tool comparison to Ringwood Manor, yeah I get it.

mistergoogle mistergoogle
Nov '13

Darwin, any thoughts on what I posted above?

Darrin Darrin
Nov '13

Darwin,

"actually it worked out quite well for a while" really? How so? Having a vacant building for several years is hardly what I would call "working out". Due to the fact that both stores provided the exact same service and sold the same products, it appears they had no choice but merge or fail. Again ... not sure how you consider that "working out quite well".

If it was ... as you say "working out quite well" we wouldn't have a vacant building there.

As for "blame the town", not sure it's fair to put 'all' the blame on them ... but ... someone had to approve it ... just saying. Now we have a large, empty, somewhat poorly kept building to remind us of what a great decision it was. Maybe, that Halloween store will use it again next year for a whole month.

Your analogies -

A BK and McDonalds provide the same service, however they sell 'different products'. These 2 pharmacies were nearly identical. That said ... your analogy would be more accurate by saying it's like putting McDonalds across the street from the McDonalds.

"gas stations across the street from one another" Gas stations across from each other is entirely different from two 'twin' drug stores. I'm confident you can decipher the difference in that analogy.

I just don't see the need for another drug/convenience store in our already drug store congested area. I just hope it doesn't result in another modern day structure erected only to be vacant or cause other vacant buildings. When it does ... at least we can have a thread about it also. :)

Maureen
Nov '13

Due to the fact that both stores provided the exact same service and sold the same products, it appears they had no choice but merge or fail. Again ... not sure how you consider that "working out quite well".

You do realize the 2 stores in town didn't merge, the Corporations did, right? Eckerd had been around for 109yrs and was sold to Rite Aid for 3.4Billion, so I’d say the 2 companies were doing ok. The fact that these 2 stores in our little town were right next to each other had nothing to do with the cause of the merger. Plenty of business sell the same products and provide the same services. I guess we shouldn't have a Target and Wal-Mart near each other, or a Lowe's and Home Depot near each other, or 2 banks or 2 grocery stores, since they might 1 day merge.

My point was both stores in town were doing ok until the merger, you can't argue that. and you can't blame the town for not seeing into the future that they would merge.

"gas stations across the street from one another" Gas stations across from each other is entirely different from two 'twin' drug stores. I'm confident you can decipher the difference in that analogy."

Really how do they differ? You really believe there is a difference between BP regular gas and Shell Regular gas??? What about if there was an Exxon and a Mobil across the street from each other, would you then blame the town when the 2 corporations merged and they closed down one of the gas stations? Because that happened.

darwin darwin
Nov '13

Darrin, glad to hear the temp pond will be built with phase 1 and to answer your question i think CVS was bluffing that they would pull out if the sub-division wasn't approved... too bad the town didn't call their bluff.

darwin darwin
Nov '13

Darwin,

smoke and mirrors ...

Who cares about their merger. The fact is ... two identical buildings/businesses were built across the street from one and other. Now ... one is empty! Anyway you try to disguise it ... doesn't change the fact that it wasn't a good decision. The fact that they merged, failed succeeded is irrelevant to fact that it resulted in an empty building. You don't need to be a rocket scientist to figure out that one way or another it was going to happen.

The necessity for multiple gas stations in our area is understandable and yet completely different then having two drug stores across the street from one another. We need multiple gas stations for the obvious reason that everyone who drives needs gas. Also, the average person (I'm in this category) visits a gas station twice a week, sometimes more. (depending on commute and vehicle you drive) I visit one of our many drug stores perhaps once a month, if that. So ... which do we need more?

There's no comparison. The fact that you make the comparison is so transparent in that you are not willing to admit that it was a poor decision to approve two 'twin drug stores' across the street from each other. It seems like common sense, other threads on this topic would substantiate this ideology. It is what it is ... No pun intended ... I agree to disagree with you. :)

Maureen
Nov '13

Darwin, I completely agree with you as far as bluffing. I think our board was so scared that they would make the process fail after years and years of trying to get the property developed that none of the board members other then burke were willing for it to end up on their shoulders, even at the cost of a huge benefit to the residents.

As far as the big retention pit, I think we can both agree that it would of been a huge benefit to our town, and it is a shame that our board did not have a stronger hand in the situation.

Brings me back to my initial statement, time and time again our town makes numerous acceptations for this developer, yet every time the town asks for something in return, it's a "no way" situation, and they even go as far as threatening to back out. It's pretty sad honestly that we have slouched to the situation that our board is basically bullied by developers, they end up getting everything they want, and the town is left "making it work"

Would of it been that difficult for the developer to say, you know, town, you have accepted numerous variances, numerous waivers, and numerous acceptations for my plans to be accepted, so to benefit you town, I will build the retention pit now that I was going to build in the next phase anyways??? It seems this is a one way street and the developer has no concern for the residents.

Darrin Darrin
Nov '13

maureen, this battle happened a long time ago when the town decided cvs was ok, the owner of skylands spoke out very concerned how it would affect his buisness, yet the town said they could work it out and help eachother.

apparently the town is more interested in forward progress then thinking about how it may affect them on the hind side when locally run buisnesses take a hit.

CVS unfortunatly seemed to be the only buisness the town could get to fill the vacant spot so they went with it. Had some more of public actually shown up to the public meetings that happened every month, the choice may have been different. But that was the time to voice this concern, now it's too late

Darrin Darrin
Nov '13

everybody understands what i was trying to say but you mr google ..... historical structures fall for shiney plastic promises. what can you expect from someone that pretends to understand the health care fiasco.

mittens
Nov '13

"historical structures fall for shiney plastic promises"

You hit the nail on the head!

Well put Mittens.

Maureen
Nov '13

Who cares about their merger. The fact is ... two identical buildings/businesses were built across the street from one and other. Now ... one is empty! Anyway you try to disguise it ... doesn't change the fact that it wasn't a good decision. The fact that they merged, failed succeeded is irrelevant to fact that it resulted in an empty building. You don't need to be a rocket scientist to figure out that one way or another it was going to happen.

LOL really? You knew that the 4th and 5th largest chain drug store companies were going to merge after 109 years of being in business? I guess you are way wiser then me. I guess we should assume the Giants and Jets going to merge one day since they share the same staduim?

the merger had everything to do with the fact that 1 building was empty. Prior to the merger both stores were making moeney. If they never merged both would still being there and there would be no empty building thus you would have nothing to complain about.

Google maps 203 South St, Morristown, NJ and tell me what you see.

Looks like a Walgreens and a Rite Aid in the same BUILDING. So both are successful and both make a profit. I guess in 20 years if the 2 companies merge someone will complain that the town let them be right next to each other but until that happens no one seems have a problem with 2 twin drug stores sharing a wall.

darwin darwin
Nov '13

Mittens it's called free enterprise, one of the principals the United States was founded on. Those willing to risk money, time and energy reap the reward or failure. What none of the naysayers will admits is that this eyesore on the Main Street finally can turn into something better for the town and community. In its present state it reflects badly on the Main Street and Hackettstown reputation.
The naysayers have tried everything possible to prevent anything here for almost 10 years and now thankfully something will happen. The planning board made the right decision on CVS and now I can't wait to see the balance of the site go. As an aside I have no idea what the reference to Welsh Farms and Lockwood Tavern means other than I guess they are being tore down were tore down?

townie jim townie jim
Nov '13

townie jim, some people prefer to keep some of a town's history, even at the expense of usable land. I could go wither way honestly. I like the history of the site and I like living next to it, but in the same sense I want to see something that will benefit our town.

It still boggles my mind that you feel a CVS will be this gigantic benefit to our town, I am not seeing where you are coming from, other then it will be filling a empty space. Hopefully we can get something more beneficial to our town in phase 2, something that will bring people from other towns into our town. Lets just hope that this new addition of CVS does not end up in two other empty spaces, skylands and bachs, because then we went backwards not forwards.

It is obvious you are completely pro-construction regardless

My main concern with the property is that now with phase two something is not put in its place that our current main street, which already has a tremendous amount of traffic troubles, can handle without making our town impossible to pass through.

Initial trials for the property was 100% apartments and condos, which I think we can come to the justification that both the public and the planning board knew, our town could not handle the added load, hence why it never happened.

And I do not think the property was "fought off" as you say for ten years. No company every wanted to go through with the clean up on the property, including our town who bounced around the idea of a new town center building. It was not financially feasible.

Darrin Darrin
Nov '13

Townie jim you go and put forward your logic to advance mankind ( and womankind ) :>) to another money loving hamlet. we are tired of your way of thinking around here ..... i for one will drive to mansfield and pay alot less for goods and services that could be offered right here on that property - if you want to change zoning please do it for the right people and reasons ...... " there are no rich good guys " .... why not put the transportation museum right here on that property adjacent to the railroad tracks in hackettstown -- it will make us a tourist mecca and create jobs that we so sorely need . phillipsburg dropped the ball by allowing a greedy land developer to build housing on the property slated for the new jersey transportation museum ... sound familiar ?

mittens
Nov '13

Darrin I support the CVS because it's a company that is a major corporation and willing to make the investment in Hackettstown which I think is good for the town and the Main Street. I do agree with you that Phase II and what is built is important and I to hope it brings more people into town. I'm pro construction to the extent that this eyesore on Main Street finally disappears and is replaced by something that helps the Main Street by be more appealing and also bringing shoppers to the downtown who will live in the apartments. In my book that a win for everyone. Our town gets a ratable out of the project and the merchants on the Main Street have a opportunity to benefit from the residents who will live in the apartments and be spending money.

townie jim townie jim
Nov '13

I just do not want to see so much traffic created that the current residents cannot get in/out of the town, It is bad enough how it is now, and it's no lie that pretty much all of us that live here use residential side streets to sneak around the main street traffic cluster.

Darrin Darrin
Nov '13

"I just do not want to see so much traffic created that the current residents cannot get in/out of the town" Are you kidding? You have no idea what bad traffic is, have you ever travelled East of Hackettstown?

iJay3 iJay3
Nov '13

I have no idea what bad traffic is? I drive 50,000 miles a year, Drove to NYC in rush hour for two years, I think I know what bad traffic is, Thanks for your concern.

So.....East of Hackettstown is suppose to be our benchmark??? I am not getting your point.

My point is to not bring something in that crowds our town like the outlets in PA, whats yours?

Darrin Darrin
Nov '13

You are delusional if you think cvs will bring in crowds like an outlet mall.

Philliesman Philliesman
Nov '13

Although I am sure CVs will bring in it's share of additional traffic, isn't that a sign of a thriving community? I say this in no way meaning to downplay the concerns of the families living close to this new business, but rather as a fact of life of town living. It kind of goes with the territory. As long as Phase II is carried out in a responsible manner to all concerned, this seems like a healthy sign of growth in Hackettstown.
It also seems like those representing the " neighborhood" are doing a good job at representing their concerns and plan to do so throughout the completion of this project. So maybe it's time to take a breath, relax a tad, and enjoy the Holidays with your families and friends.

Some live near the hospital, some near schools or churches, and could comment about adjustments they have had to make as a result of change. It's life.
Things change all the time...

Spring Fever Spring Fever
Nov '13

"I am not getting your point."

Darrin - You're saying how awful the current situation is yet even after the new traffic it will not be nearly as bad as 5 points. That's what's east of you. The point is you're exaggerating your traffic problem.


The rich getting richer! The will build it. They will make millions. They will run away. We will deal with it. We will use it. We will put other people out of work. We will pay way more money in the outcome. No win situation!

fitter
Nov '13

Phillesman, in case you were not paying attention, I was referencing phase 2 of the project, NOT cvs!

okay GC, "Darrin - You're saying how awful the current situation is yet even after the new traffic it will not be nearly as bad as 5 points. That's what's east of you. The point is you're exaggerating your traffic problem."

I bought a house in Hackettstown, not in a Traffic infested area by the city, so now what's your point? If you don't know how difficult it can be to get through town during rush hour you must not travel on main street! And sure others have it way worse, but I don't remember comparing us to anyone else. I am comparing our current situation to what could come.

So you are saying as long as our traffic is not as bad as traffic leading into the city we are good to go?

Darrin Darrin
Nov '13

Hackettstown has gotten too busy as it is with its traffic. And I just hope the locals still continue to use Skylands Pharmacy, I don't want to see them go out of business due to a huge competitor like CVS. I know I'll still be using Skylands.


Darrin.....I didn't realize you were talking about phase 2......in that case, traffic will be worse than the outlet malls, on black Friday.

philliesman philliesman
Nov '13

I don't think CVS will take that much business away from Skylands if any. People go to skylands because they like the people that work there. I think CVS will take some business from Rite Aid for those of us on this end of town that now don't have to drive across town anymore. They will also get business from residents west of H'town

darwin darwin
Nov '13

apparently the owner of skylands thought differently, he spoke out at preliminary meetings with major concern.

also the town didn't seem to mind, and said the two could help each other, how?, beats me, guess time will tell, and it seemed to be a risk the town was willing to take

Darrin Darrin
Nov '13

I have been reading the input by most of the people who are interested in the CVS, water problems, traffic problems and the overall support to our town.
Yes , we would have done better if we kept it industrial and put people to work.
We can't, it is over. Once again think about it.
If this was such a great project, major contractors would have been involved.
Now we must work together and see to it that the planning bd. and the people will not allow any shortcuts.
My big concern is the community I live in.
Did anyone stop and think of the heavier fire load this building will bring. How about the Volunteers who will be spending their time on calls . It will happen.
Oh yes , it will probably warrant more police to control the people just hanging around.
Someone other than the town should support and take responsibility for the upgrade of our Emergency services. Developers should have to take responsibility.
Part 2 of the project will raise eyebrows when they see the size of this building in real life.
Apartments will increase all 3 of our emergency services.
We have the police but how about our volunteers. Lets keep them in mind and support them.
Accidents, fires and emergency calls will rise. Just look at any other town when they have a large development to deal with.
CVS is just the beginning. Now a large mall, second story offices or businesses and a third story roof. Pretty large building.
It looks nice on paper and people like the looks but they don't think of the overhead the town will have to share for "Bettering the Community."
We must all keep this in mind along with our volunteers.
Charlie

Charlie Charlie
Nov '13

Won't they be paying property tax to the town ?

eapos eapos
Nov '13

Good points Charlie, We see how the police currently handle the loitering at quick check across the road..... they do NOTHING!!! This was brought up by a resident at one of the last meetings, his point was that this ground, and "sitting wall" is just going to create more places for late night loitering, and that our police currently do nothing to stop it.

Darrin Darrin
Nov '13

My point is I don't believe many people are currently going to Skyland's solely because they don't want to drive to Mountain Ave to the Rite Aid. They are going because they like the service they receive at Skylands. Those people will continue to go to Skylands. Those that live on this side of town that normally drive to Rite Aid/CVS or any other pharmacy other than Skylands will most likely go to the new CVS since it will be more convenient

darwin darwin
Nov '13

Thats fine, but what about the people who don't live in this town that are just driving through, are they going to go to skylands or CVS? Skylands has a decently noticeable spot, but now will be cast in the shadows of CVS.

Darrin Darrin
Nov '13

All those apartments will bring in more foot traffic, train traffic, and auto traffic. The countryside neighborhood will be congested with cars trying to cut through. I agree to what Charlie said as well. What is being built will warrant more emergency responders. Hope it works out.

neighborhood watcher
Nov '13

It will warrant more of everything, police, schools, fire, ems, etc

Don't forget, just a few months ago the town approved a huge apartment complex on Bilby road too, so these people will be headed towards us for shopping too.

Darrin Darrin
Nov '13

Just a not, the meeting agenda is up for the November 26th meeting:

AGENDA

1. Sunshine Act
2. Roll Call
3. Pledge of Allegiance
4. Approval of minutes – October 22, 2013
5. Resolutions – Case #13-01, First Hartford Realty Corp.
6. Case #13-05, Jade Hackettstown Associates, LLC Conceptual
7. Old Business
8. New Business
9. Adjournment

Seems CVS is in the meeting again, as well as phase 2

Darrin Darrin
Nov '13

Reminder, tonight is the meeting, don't know whats left for CVS unless they are planning on changing something....and the conceptual for phase 2 too

Darrin Darrin
Nov '13

Just o let all know the meeting scheduled for tonight was cancelled

Darrin Darrin
Nov '13

I don't know if they changed it, or if it has always been this date due to the holidays, but the resolution meeting is tomorrow December 10th at 7:30....normal place, normal time

Darrin Darrin
Dec '13

Darrin, FYI... if the only thing on the agenda for CVS is the resolution, there's not going to be anything happening. Chances are the applicant won't even go. At most, he'll send his attorney if there are any disagreements with the conditions imposed at the last meeting and the wording of the resolution as prepared by the Board Attorney. They've been working on it for the last week or two.

iPhone-imal iPhone-imal
Dec '13

Yup, I know It is worth hearing the resolutions to make sure they line up with what was said in previous meetings though.

it is not the only thing on the agenda.....the conceptual is also on the agenda for phase two....so I would say it is a pretty important meeting

http://www.hackettstown.net/

Darrin Darrin
Dec '13

This is more CVS related so i am forwarding my post from the other forum:

Last nights meeting was just one CVS attorney. It was a conceptual meeting to feel out our boards opinion on CVS changing the agreed upon resolutions to allow CVS to start building their structure before the DOT approval comes in. CVS was complaining that the approval is going to majorly delay their project and that they want to start putting up their structure before it comes in, holding the risk that if DOT makes them move the road their building will have to be knocked down. Basically what they want to do is put up the building before making any drainage or east stiger street changes, something that directly goes against what we agreed upon at the prior meetings.

One of the board members questioned them when the permit was filed and when they expected it to come back, and CVS responded.......the permit has not been filed yet.

Again this was only a conceptual, formal notices will have to be sent out to 200 foot radius residents and a formal meeting is to be held next month to allow the public to voice their concerns.

Although this was only a conceptual I was still allowed to voice my concern, and I said we are putting the cart before the horse if we allow this. The major component of this project working is the drainage changes to be done to east stiger street. Without them, the surrounding residents take all this risk if there is a heavy rainfall during this process. Also they would start building before Jade demolishes the remainder of the bergen buildings, yet another thing that goes against what we originally agreed to. The buildings were to be demolished first and that was the only way this project would work without the retention pond as per the drainage studies that were done.

To be honest I am getting really tired of our town giving and giving to this developer and receiving absolutely NOTHING in return.

Darrin Darrin
Mar '14

I agree Darrin. It is time the town does their job.
We have to follow the town policy and waiting times along with other contractors.
CVS should follow the same.
If the planning bd. gives in than why should anyone else have to wait . Just build it and than wait for the DOT and Environmental Protection be bypassed. That's not the way to do it.
Thank you Darrin for your outstanding work.
No breaking of the rules. Let them wait. Do it right or petitions should be filed to have the mayor look into the appointed Planning BD and make sure they follow the rules.
If not replace them.
Charlie

Chrlie Chrlie
Mar '14

Thank you Charlie.

If this actually is allowed to go through, it will just go to show how much of a pushover our planning board actually is. 5 Months ago CVS agreed to these terms, since then they have not even filed the DOT permit they are saying is taking too long, please tell me why we should let them go ahead and build before taking the proper steps they agreed to take 5 months ago?? Especially since it put the resident's at high risk of flooding!

Darrin Darrin
Mar '14

Darrin so did the council let them bypass the permit? You didn't actually say what the outcome was?

Christine Christine
Mar '14

Christine - The comment about "giving and giving" clearly says it would have had to been approved. Otherwise the comment is completely unwarranted. However, the "If this actually is allowed to go through" shows a decision was not made. It's not really that confusing is it??

I agree completely with the issue of the retention pool, and completely sticking to that without making exceptions when none are required. I support continuation of that.


Oh good I am not the only one confused.

I agree the retention, detention pond/pool (whatever they call it) should be put in to avoid anymore flooding.

Christine Christine
Mar '14

I cant really see how this is so confusing unless you did not read the first post on the overview of the meeting

Did you read my post before charlie's?

If so, I said multiple times that it was only a conceptual meeting to feel out the board members, formal meeting on the topic is next month.

Cvs is asking if they can build their building before dot approval....which means building before the other buildings are torn down and before any drainage improvements are done.

Darrin Darrin
Mar '14

I guess you would of had to be there to see that this was okay with some of the town members.

And the town has been giving and giving to this developer before this topic even came up so that statement is well deserved. I guess it could be hard to understand unless you have a complete knowledge of the project

Also christine......cg said " its not really that confusing"
Which you replied "good I am not the only one confused then"
sorry to say, but I think you are the only one.

Darrin Darrin
Mar '14

"To be honest I am getting really tired of our town giving and giving to this developer and receiving absolutely NOTHING in return."


this statement is the problem. You keep saying the town is giving in to the developer, but they haven't voted to allow this. The board has not given in to every demand that CVS has asked, and in fact has made them change a number of CVS's plans... as you like to take credit for. So how can you say the board giving in and then say most of your concerns were addressed. i think the board did a great job of listening to the residents (you) and having CVS modify their plans to address those concerns. You really need to stop with this whole the board is pushover crap. Especially if you want them to take your concerns seriously.

The developer is allowed to ask for the world, it doesn't mean the planning board is going to give it to them. There are proper steps that need to be followed and that is what the board is doing. They couldn't vote this down at the last meeting because that was not the time to vote. So they will vote it down at the next meeting and life will go on.

" something that directly goes against what we agreed upon at the prior meetings."

i also enjoy your use of "we"

darwin darwin
Mar '14

Darwin, you were not at the meeting last I checked, so how can you speak for what went on?

The CVS attorney asked the board if they would consider allowing them to build the building without DOT approval and both the chairman and another board member said they did not see a problem with it.

"You keep saying the town is giving in to the developer, but they haven't voted to allow this"

Here is the number one example for you, the front building, the town originally said must stay, the developer let it rot and then asked for it to be knocked down, the town went back on their word and allowed them to do this for NOTHING in return. They should of asked for 4 acres of park then being that the developer was not upholding their original agreement then, and now they are asking for more.

Darrin Darrin
Mar '14

Darrin I asked a simple question all I wanted is an answer not one of your snarky remarks! If you cannot answer it then do not. BTW GC also was confused as you missed the other part of his post.

GC: "The comment about "giving and giving" clearly says it would have had to been approved. Otherwise the comment is completely unwarranted. However, the "If this actually is allowed to go through" shows a decision was not made. It's not really that confusing is it??"

Christine Christine
Mar '14

Christine - Darrin didn't miss my part of the post, he just didn't mention it. I posted two entirely conflicting statements. I then asked a question, not made a statement. I don't imagine there is anyone who doesn't see what's going on. That's different from whether anyone is confused by clear as Mudd statements. ;-)


Thank you GC!

Christine...I appologise if you feel I was snarky, but please tell me where I was?

Lets keep on topic this time christine, every time you seem to post the follow up post is always off topic and personal, not doing that anymore, sorry but I am too busy for games.

Darrin Darrin
Mar '14

"sorry to say, but I think you are the only one" states Darrin

You see you missed Darwin and GC's post?

I am not making this personal I asked a simple question. You are the one that came back with the above statement. Then you come back and say, " every time you seem to post the follow up post is always off topic and personal, not doing that anymore, sorry but I am too busy for games." No I was not there as I am dealing with some medical conditions. BUT you are the one who claims to know what's going on and your post WAS a bit confusing not only to me but a couple other posters. Do you ever admit you are wrong?

I accept your apology. I will make sure I do not ask anymore questions directed at you.

Christine Christine
Mar '14

I am sorry but I do not find that snarky at all, you were confused, GC responded and said "It's not really that confusing is it??"

All i asked was if you read my post before Charlie's as that was a pretty clear explanation of what went down at the meeting including "Again this was only a conceptual, formal notices will have to be sent out to 200 foot radius residents and a formal meeting is to be held next month to allow the public to voice their concerns."

\which would of answered your question if you would have read the post all they way through, if you even read it at all.

I have nothing against questions, but you asked one that was already clearly stated in a post prior, and then went on to make a issue out of it.......as you usually do

and who said this "You see you missed Darwin and GC's post?" ???

If you are asking me, I replied to both of them.

Darrin Darrin
Mar '14

Darrin i'm pretty sure the Bergen building was rotting well before Jade bought the property. And the board can tell them they have to keep it all they want when talks first started, but once everyone saw the shape the building was in it was clear to just about everyone there was no point of saving it. So to Say Jade let it rot so they could remove it is silly.

They bought the property in 2011, the company moved out in 2003 so there was 8 years of no one maintaining it.

http://www.lehighvalleylive.com/warren-county/express-times/index.ssf/2011/06/bergen_tool_factory_in_hackett.html

And just becasue 2 board memebers said they didn't see it being an issue doesn't mean they will vote that way when they hear all the facts and it's time to make a formal vote


and i thought i told you, i don't have to be at the meetings to know what happened ;)

darwin darwin
Mar '14

Darwin I was under the understanding that the stipulation to keep the front building was in place and agreed to when the property was purchased.

Darrin Darrin
Mar '14

http://www.lehighvalleylive.com/warren-county/express-times/index.ssf/2012/05/hackettstowns_bergen_tool_site.html

yes when the town agreed to rezone the property they said the front building had to stay. but now one would have purchased the site with that requirement. once any buyer saw the site they knew that there was no way to keep the building.
and the town agreed.

i guess you call that bending over. Most people call it common sense.

darwin darwin
Mar '14

While we are on the topic of you knowing what goes on at the meetings without actually being there, how come you didn't know about one of the board members who actually brought up the topic of the board being a bunch of push overs. Mr Burke used the term no teeth. I guess it was better terminology them saying no balls.

They seem to already know this, despite what you keep telling me.

There is no benefit for the town, only risk, they would be crazy to allow them to do this

Darrin Darrin
Mar '14

How about these people simply exchange email addresses so they can snipe at each other in private. Most of us are interested in the facts, not what a few people incessantly bitch about.

OldSam
Mar '14

Darrin you obviously cannot comprehend what GC said! Its not that difficult to get.

Read it again! Go ahead and get the last word in. That's fine with me.

Christine Christine
Mar '14

Anyone know why they stopped the demolition? There has been no demolition work on the site for two weeks now, it seems that they only knocked down the buildings which roofs collapsed and did not clean up the rubble they left either.

Oldsam, I tried that once, but was immediatly accused of being a harassing stalker and threatened to have the cops called and a restraining order placed, so unfortunately that's a no go. Some people that post on the forum have no other hobbies other then creating chaos that nobody wants to read. They obviously try to pull the forum away from its true topic for a reason. I do appologise for these people!

So as I asked, why has cleanup stopped?

Darrin Darrin
Mar '14

Guess nobody knows....

Well after 3 weeks and no work done, piles of rubbel now all over the property, and to come home and see the they picked up the big excavator and took it away, I guess it's safe to say so much for the cleanup. Hopefully something said and this developer gets back on track with what he promised

Darrin Darrin
Apr '14

Guess nobody know....


Of course no one on here would know. We don't work for Jade or the town. Why not call one of them if you are so concerned.

Darwin Darwin
Apr '14

Just two questions

does it hurt to ask?

do you have jade's number?

Darrin Darrin
Apr '14

I spoke to Mr. Sterbenz, our town engineer, and he said he is not sure my cleanup stopped and the excavator was removed.

He speculated, (he said it was only speculation) that maybe it was so that the material they knocked down could be tested before it is shipped off.

He made mention that CVS has tried to change the resolution of the buildings coming down for their CO. But that was not even made a option to them at this time.

I told him that info on the site cleanup needs to be readily available to our town, especially now since potentially harmful materials are being left out in the weather, and 3 days of rain we just had.

Darrin Darrin
Apr '14

I can not believe all this hype for cvs going in. There was nothing there for years and it looks like trash. Build the Damn store and be done with it!

happiness
Apr '14

They hype is more less the property cleanup and flooding issue

Darrin Darrin
Apr '14

When are they hiring?

botheredbyuu
Apr '14

I saw the excavating company there today. A white truck and some type of a backhoe on a flatbed truck. Men were walking around.

Christine Christine
Apr '14

Darrin, have you seen any environmental folks there? I wonder if those piles are toxic?

pampurr pampurr
Apr '14

pampurr, I do not know who to call on the developers end to find out info on the cleanup, our town engineer was not sure who I should call either. But now that buildings are being tore down and piles of rubble left in the rain, I feel it is our right to have info readily available to us as to what is in these piles, and what if anything is being washed into our soil. There is a possibility that any hazards left in the rain can run into the aquifer the whole town gets their water from and this is a big concern.

Darrin Darrin
Apr '14

Looks like christine is right, there is a mini escavator on site now, it seems to be more the size to dig test holes so maybe our town engineer's presumption is correct, maybe they are doing some testing? I don't know, the town engineer didn't know, and I don't know who to talk to that does know.

They also finally put up a new orange saftey net. Maybe they are trying to make the place look better before they ask to start building before their approvals come in. Which will be a meeting to change resolution this month according to paul, they filed the application and are sending notices to 200 foot.

Darrin Darrin
Apr '14

All your points are valid. I do not believe the town engineer does not know who to contact. He could get the information. He is usually good about that. I do have phone numbers if you need them. Once again we have no transparency.

pampurr pampurr
Apr '14

We must get together as a community of concerned citizens in order to be heard. We know who the concerned citizens are it will not take much to meet privately and discuss these issues.

pampurr pampurr
Apr '14

Charlie could you please call or PM me..thanks

pampurr pampurr
Apr '14

Papurr, if you have some numbers maybe you can give them a call and find out why they stopped knocking down the buildings and did not truck out the rubble they created.

Darrin Darrin
Apr '14

Re: Bergen Tool- CVS approved

here is a picture from the site that I took today piles of rubble are sitting in puddles of water runoff. You can smell the stench of some sort of chemicals in the wind. This does not look like a site that is being properly cleaned up should look after it has been sitting for three weeks with no work done on it!

Darrin Darrin
Apr '14

Re: Bergen Tool- CVS approved

here is another picture that shows the piles of rubble that have been sitting out in the weather for 3 weeks now.

Darrin Darrin
Apr '14

I witnessed people walking in the rubble with out protective gear on...what in the hell is going on ..that is a Brownfield Site for crying out loud!

pampurr pampurr
Apr '14

any one know if they will allow people on the site, to take some of those old bricks that are piled up there? they look like the old clay type and I could use some for repairs. if you have any info. on that please let me know.


There are No Trespassing signs everywhere. But I would ask the developer the least he can say is no.

Christine Christine
Apr '14

You live across the street from this toxic waste dump. You smell chemicals and do nothing.?

pampurr pampurr
Apr '14

Darrin call the the Mayor and then from a safety prospective you call OSHA. You got the front row seat. Your a witness to this. Then call the EPA if you get NO satisfaction. You too can be a whistle blower. Call Erin Brockovich and her dream team of attorneys.

pampurr pampurr
Apr '14

Toxic waste dump? If it's that bad, have your own study done and sue the town, developer, and CVS for damages.

justintime justintime
Apr '14

Wake up and smell the chemicals.

Yeah, I think that's time to sue.

mistergoogle mistergoogle
Apr '14

luckily right now the wind is not coming my way. When I was over on Bergen Street there was a noticeable bad chemical smell. talking to a resident of Bergen Street i was told that same smell is starting to seep into their homes. From what was explained to me the wind normally blows out towards route 46 and this hasn't been an issue, but apparently Saturday's wind was changing direction. If that was my way home I would be incredibly upset, the developer needs to do something about this. Pampurr, don't worry the appropriate actions from concerned and affected residents will be taken.

Darrin Darrin
Apr '14

I think you need more than just a smell...

Brad
Apr '14

Glad to hear that .There was a study already done a few years back don't know if you knew that regarding what those mounds of dirt contained..The Bike Ramps.

pampurr pampurr
Apr '14

"Pampurr, don't worry the appropriate actions from concerned and affected residents will be taken."

Great! Much better than speculation. I feel for all of you who have to deal with this process without full disclosure.

justintime justintime
Apr '14

pampurr, right now, one of the biggest concerns is that the newly exposed rubble has been crushed up and left to sit in the rain and in puddles, and we do not know if this is contaminated debris or not, and this is because it is near impossible to get a straight answer from anyone involved, as well, per my phone calls Friday, it does not seem like our town can answer my questions either, and could not tell me who to call that could answer my question.

Judging by the smell coming from the site there is definitely chemicals somewhere and I am very concerned they are leching into our soil which could possibly get into our aquifer or stream. I do not feel it is right to leave the material exposed like that for, currently 3 weeks, without trucking it out or covering it.

They seemed to have no problem shipping the scrap metal off the site, as there is only one very small pile of metal left. At least they need to have is some exposure of whats going on, where they are at, and where they are going. A project as big as this, and as close to homes as it is should not be this difficult to find out information on. As you see from the timeline that you have for demolition and cleanup, those dates they stated are long since passed, so where is the new timeline?

Darrin Darrin
Apr '14

Your getting jerked around and you know it. Did you contact the Mayor? Everyone is just gonna dummy up for fear of someone will beat them up... for opening their mouths. And that is understandable...Now Maria is the top dog in the town if she don't know we have REAL problems here. We can just add that to the list of ineffective government.

pampurr pampurr
Apr '14

I used to have her home number and work number, but I lost them in the process of getting a new phone, I will have to email her for it

Darrin Darrin
Apr '14

Strangely enough the only person on site running the mini-excavator that Christine saw is the same guy that I see over there snow blowing the sidewalks, which also happens to be one of the guys who presented phase two conceptual............

Darrin Darrin
Apr '14

And "that" guy working in that rubble without any protective gear on I
SAW...yesterday. ..OSHA would flip out and fine the piss out of who ever this contractor is....ANY SITE IN NYC AND NJ YOU MUST WEAR PROTECTIVE GEAR. As they do one they will do everything else. CHEAP AND DIRTY..expect it going forward.

pampurr pampurr
Apr '14

pampurr, that's what the board needs to know, they need to know that things are not being done properly, and until they are done properly we as a town should not be giving this developer the changes to the resolution they ask for, such as building CVS before the proper state approvals come in.

I emailed the mayor and she too didn't seem to know what is going on with the site, but did say she would get me the proper answers.

We need answers, there is no reason it should be this hard to get information on the cleanup, everyone I talk to, our town engineer, the mayor, other residents, say they do not know what is going on. At least the mayor said she will try to find out.

This developer obviously cannot be trusted to do the right thing, look at the condition of the site, our town officials need to pay attention to what going on and step carefully moving on in such a way that we do not end up with a CVS built but no site cleanup done. Being the town allowed the property to be subdivided before clean up there is the risk this could happen, yes it is in the resolution, but i wouldn't be surprised, CVS has no problem fighting to change the resolution for smaller issues.

Darrin Darrin
Apr '14

pampurr what type of protective gear should a man working by himself have since you seem to know a lot about this subject?

eapos eapos
Apr '14

eapos, here is some info for your reading pleasure

https://www.osha.gov/doc/outreachtraining/htmlfiles/demolit.html

maybe his boss didnt read this, and shoot its from 2003 so its probably out of date

http://www.lni.wa.gov/WISHA/publications/PPEGuide/PPEGuideVol-1.pdf

I think what pampurr's point is that the cleanup is not being done in a professional manner, instead it seems more like what I would do in my backyard working on a weekend project.

Darrin Darrin
Apr '14

I wish I had nothing else to do but put my nose in other peoples business.


What exactly have they not done right? I'm seriously asking because i work and don't have time out of my day to watch them doing the demo.

So please fill us in exactly what steps/rule they haven't been following. So Pampur saw i guy on the work site without a helmet on, is that it? Are you telling me 1 person knocked down the buildings by himself? or was a team there?

I am asking these questions in a serious tone and not trying to be a wise ass, but when you say things are not being done properly without details, i get confused,

darwin darwin
Apr '14

Darwin, I would be more then happy to answer your "serious" questions, but do know from your previous posts and previous interest in causing more problems with concerned residents then concern over the towns good, it may be hard, especially when you post a statment like "So Pampur saw i guy on the work site without a helmet on" after saying you are seriously asking...." I am asking these questions in a serious tone and not trying to be a wise ass"

So what is it darwin, are you finally stepping to the plate and showing care for our town, or you just here to cause trouble for the people who are actually concerned with what is going on next door?

Here is the summary for you in case you couldn't read the few previous posts:

Parpur is concerned because everyone that has been working on the site thus far have not been wearing safety gear that professional demolition companies wear, that being hard hats, safety glasses, high vis jackets etc. If you actually read the NJ requirements for site demolition, this company is not following most of the legal procedures actually.

"What exactly have they not done right?"

And my answer to that and my biggest concern, is why the work has stopped yet everything they knocked down remains potentially untested in piles on the property for that past four weeks, through multiple storms. More concerning is who do we contact for answers, our town engineer didn't know, our mayor didn't know, other residents don't know. For a demolition this close to our homes to be done, yet we cannot find out the information we desire concerning the safety of this area seems like our business.

I really do hate repeating, because then I am made to look like I am saying the same thing over and over, but to that point had you read the previous few posts you could of got this info. Let me know if you have any other questions....

I have one.. I called the engineer Thursday last week, and the mayor Tuesday this week, still no answers, do they really have to dig this deep for the information that as per the resolution is suppose to be presented to our town engineer?

Darrin Darrin
Apr '14

man Darrin, you really need to get off your high horse. The reason i asked is because i haven't heard any FACTS yet.

"Parpur is concerned because everyone that has been working on the site thus far have not been wearing safety gear that professional demolition companies wear"

No she did not say that she said:"I witnessed people walking in the rubble with out protective gear on"

What does that mean, were they workers or just people like "aguy" looking to find some bricks. And i like that she says" people" and you turned that into "EVERYONE".

What happened during the ACTUAL DEMO that was not up to OSCA standards or yours?

darwin darwin
Apr '14

Darwin you should stop with the personal comments, statements like that is why I dont take you serious.

If you actually stayed up to date with post you would see that someone posted that during demolition the whole crew was not wearing safety gear either. So to answer your question that is where everyone came from.

and on the topic of the facts, it is fact that the site has been sitting with no cleanup done for 4 weeks and it is fact is is that we cannot get answers from hackettstown authorities and it is fact that everyone saw the people working on site without safety equipment, yet you say we have no facts?

it's reasons like your statement above that you're not taken seriously on this post. Again you have shown that you're more concerned in questioning concerned residents that with the actual topic a hand.

this topic has been more than the one post that you continually bring up you need to follow it to be up to date with facts you can't just pick on people for one thing that they said. At some point in time you have to use your memory and remember where this topic came from.

Darrin Darrin
Apr '14

"So what is it darwin, are you finally stepping to the plate and showing care for our town, or you just here to cause trouble for the people who are actually concerned with what is going on next door?"


you make stupid personal comments, i'll make stupid personal comments, ok buddy


"If you actually stayed up to date with post you would see that someone posted that during demolition the whole crew was not wearing safety gear either."

sorry there was nothing like that on this thread. So you are right i had to go to the other thread and found a post from "imohop". Again 1 person, who has never posted on here before or since. Hard for me to take that as FACT.

"fact that everyone saw the people working on site without safety equipment, yet you say we have no facts?"

Again how does 1 person turn into EVERYONE?

darwin darwin
Apr '14

"So what is it darwin, are you finally stepping to the plate and showing care for our town, or you just here to cause trouble for the people who are actually concerned with what is going on next door?""

Aslo Darrin, let's be honest. you only care "our town" because this site is right across the street from your home. I noticed you haven't posted on the college view issue threads. Let's not act like you are Mr. Hackettstown... unlike you i actually spend 4 nights a week volunteering in town

darwin darwin
Apr '14

That's not true at all darwin and I know it, there is no need for me to even waste my time, you have shown time and time again what your true reasons for posting are, you may enjoy the little game, but you will not be playing it any more with me, go back to posting on the Guns, Social Security, Food Stamps and tell us how you really feel about our country's Veterans, play your game with oldred, but your running in circles to make others look dumb is not welcome here anymore.

I for once thought you had a serious question.....nope typical darwin antics, even though you said you were serious

"Again how does 1 person turn into EVERYONE?" for giggles i went back and looked at the post you are referring to, and he said a handful of people, not one person.

It may be easier for you to comprehend it this way, I have seen NO-ONE other then HMUA working onsite with the proper saftey gear....so that would make EVERYONE i have seen not wearing the proper saftey gear.

You choose to dwell on one thing and one thing only, you nit pick on how people say things and it is not productive at all. You have shown time and time again that you are not concerned with the good of the town, or if anyone on the site gets hurt. Move on!

Darrin Darrin
Apr '14

"Aslo Darrin, let's be honest. you only care "our town" because this site is right across the street from your home. I noticed you haven't posted on the college view issue threads. Let's not act like you are Mr. Hackettstown... unlike you i actually spend 4 nights a week volunteering in town"

did I ever say I was Mr Hackettstown??

Is there a problem with me being concerned with a environmental cleanup that is ongoing right next to my home?

"unlike you i actually spend 4 nights a week volunteering in town" well good for you, I don't know what you do, but I try to spend as much time as I can gathering FACT, making phone calls, and taking pictures of what is going on with this project, so that others in town that may not now or may not have the time can get the info.

I am not wasting any more time with this, and I am certainly not taking any more away from people who are actually concerned. If you want to continue the petty shit, open a feud forum like was discussed on another topic.

Darrin Darrin
Apr '14

"go back to posting on the Guns, Social Security, Food Stamps and tell us how you really feel about our country's Veterans"

WTF are you talking about?????

" I have seen NO-ONE other then HMUA working onsite with the proper saftey gear....so that would make EVERYONE i have seen not wearing the proper saftey gear."

Please read that statement again and tell me if that makes any sense.

darwin darwin
Apr '14

again i tried to ask a seroius question about the demo, no hidden agenda what so ever, but go look at your response and tell me who was petty and personal.

The actual demo was not discussed on this thread, sorry for not going thru the multiple Bergen Tool threads to find the 1 post that talked about the DEMO. Sorry i asked a simple question.

I'm done with this thread and you.

darwin darwin
Apr '14

Get a Life,are you kidding !


if you have a question I will answer it if you are here to Bicker back and forth I'm not interested, simple!

"" I have seen NO-ONE other then HMUA working onsite with the proper saftey gear....so that would make EVERYONE i have seen not wearing the proper saftey gear."

Let me re-explain this for you.... everyone I have seen working on the site OTHER then HMUA has not been wearing safety gear And pampurr the same thing judging by the fact that this was originally her statement.

I mean honestly if they don't want their guys to be safe that's their problem I'm more concerned with all the debris has been left on the site. I was just trying to answer your question but as always it turned into a debacle.

Darrin Darrin
Apr '14

Is there some time limit that you are aware of for demolition debris to be left on site?

Gadfly Gadfly
Apr '14

Not really sure gladfly, that's why I am trying to get answers from our town but nobody knows the answers. I would think there has to be, especially if it is untested material. At the least I would think the piles have to be covered., but I am not really sure, I will report back with what the town tells me if and when they get back to me.

Darrin Darrin
Apr '14

The cause for concern is the following: If the contractor is not following simple rules like wearing safety gear during a demo, then when it comes to any environmental concerns (like asbestos) is the contractor following the rules of clean up for those concerns.

Who is the watchdog for the town and the people who live here? The town engineer and mayor seem to not know what is happening while the cleanup has already started. That is unacceptable.

My family and I live and work within the vicinity of this "cleanup" along with many other people. Irresponsible contractors have cut corners throughout history and only to find out years later that proper procedures were not done causing community wide sickness or communal contamination to our natural resources. Our community needs to make sure these things get done safely and correctly. A current timeline and site inspections should be ongoing to inform and protect our community-PLAIN AND SIMPLE.

THE MORP
Apr '14

Thank god Darwin said he's done wth this thread! Now we can actually talk like adults, above a third grade level. Hip hip hurray!

Nancy G
Apr '14

I agree with the morps's logic on if the developer cannot follow simple rules, what important rules are the skipping.

The unfortunate part is there seems to be nobody we can call for info that will actually tell us the truth. I am not so sure that calling the developer would get you to the correct information, it would probably take you to the "correct" information, just not the actual information. I am very disappointed that our town officials have to do this much searching to find information, I would think they would be overseeing a project like this.

Well more rain, and the material is still all sitting, seeping into our soil. I cannot see how this is legal, or considered proper cleanup. And I certainly think that the town is crazy IF they allow CVS to start building without the proper approvals, we should all be getting (200FT) certified letters so CVS can try to change the resolution.....April 22 will be the meeting I believe

Darrin Darrin
Apr '14

The letter we received last year from the attorneys office regarding the timeline of the project that has now since come and gone had some numbers on it. Did you try to contact those? I find it very hard to believe that the town officials know nothing.

pampurr pampurr
Apr '14

i never received that schedule pampurr, I would like to contact someone on our towns side of the project or someone neutral, contacting the developer will give me obvious results.

Darrin Darrin
Apr '14

I don't understand why your so concerned about building materials sitting there "seeping into our soil". I looked at a list of the contaminants on site from a past article. They're soil contaminants, no? I don't think you have to worry about the broken down walls contaminating the soil. It's already contaminated.

Have you called DEP and spoken to person overseeing this remediation?

Gadfly Gadfly
Apr '14

The problem gadfly is you do not know what contaminates you are possibly adding to the soil. If you add contaminates to the soil after the site contamination survey has been done, you would never know if you may have to take other procedures in the cleanup process. Not to mention the pads the buildings were built on were said to be contaminated, they were once covered by the buildings and now they are open to the elements. I do not know the contact to DEP or anyone overseeing the project, I asked for it from both the town engineer and the mayor.

Gladfy, do you understand that there is different procedures for different contaminates? soil is not just contaminated or not, it makes a big difference in the procedure required. Especially since the original site cleanup plan presented and approved was to cap the site and leave the contaminated soil in place.

Darrin Darrin
Apr '14

Call the DEP. There number is in the phone book and on the internet. I believe you want the Bureau of Site Remediation. Ask for someone who deals with Warren County. Ask for the name of the person overseeing this case. Find out what the actual requirements are for the remediation. How can you be a watchdog if you don't know the rules?

Gadfly Gadfly
Apr '14

You are missing the point, our town engineer and mayor should have up to date info on this site, but they did not, I shouldn't have to go over their heads to get the info. I want the people that should be involved to get involved and bring the info to me.

It is actually in the resolution that our town engineer is suppose to receive a timeline and updates on the site from the developer, yet he had not info

Darrin Darrin
Apr '14

I'll admit it's hard to follow this thread, but did they come in and knock down a bunch of buildings, leaving some others, and nothing has been done since? If that's the case, fair bet that this initial round of demo was to knock down unsafe structures (I remember people saying roof's caving in with the snow), ahead of the actual demolition. If no materials have been removed from the site, that points even more towards that conclusion. I agree, it's strange and rather worrisome that you can't get this information from the town, but it's probably not some orchestrated cover-up between the engineer, mayor, DEP, developer, and whomever else... Hanlon's razor and all...

All that being said, it would make me a little leery if the soils contamination studies were already done, with new (or larger quantities) of contaminants being introduced into the soil after the studies... But if it's anything like removing an oil tank, don't they have to test again after the remediation?

Brendan Brendan
Apr '14

Here is the letter out town engineer forwarded to me from the developer:


Regarding your request the status of the demolition activities and the remediation process I want to provide you with a update as.

DEMOLITION

Jade has retained Dallas Contracting to perform and undertake the demolition on the existing buildings on the Bergen Tool site. Dallas is working in conjunction with The Whitman Companies who is overseeing the Licensed Site Remediation Program (LSRP) as authorized under NJDEP statues. Dallas has undertaken two phases of demolition to date. The first involved the CVS site which was required in order to prepare the site for CVS and also to complete additional testing under the building. Other than the possible installation of monitoring wells and the removal of a decommissioned tank near the property line this property only requires the slabs to be removed. The pile of brick on the site will be eventually removed for salvage by a outside contractor. There is a second container that holds a small amount of asbestos that was removed from the building and this will be removed. All the activities regarding this section of the property were carried out under a existing abetment plan for the property and in conjunction with the LSRP. The Hackettstown building department issued a demolition permit for the property.

The remaining section of the Bergen Tool site and the demolition that occurred in this section were prompted and undertaken due to the extreme winter that we had. As a result of accumulating snow the roof in several sections of different buildings began failing and collapsed. This result in concerns by the town building department regarding the structural integrity of the building wall running along Bergen Street and the potential to collapse and impeded access to the homes on Bergen Street.

After consultation with the building department and working in conjunction with Dallas and Whitman a demolition permit was issued to eliminate the unsafe condition. In the process of securing the first area of roof collapse two other sections of roof failed which lead to both these areas being secured. There are several piles as a result of this demolition activity: wood, roofing material and some masonry material. The wood is intended to be salvaged. The roofing material because it had asbestos material in it will be remediated and the masonry material recycled. Regarding the roofing material
due to the time the building was taken down the material was covered in snow and unable to be removed. Now that the weather has turned better this will be able to be removed. All the of the above was done under the LSRP protocol and Dallas provided a certification to the town that the asbestos roofing material would be handled in a appropriate way.

We are now at the point where we are coordinating with Dallas on a schedule for the demolition of the remaining buildings exclusive of the slabs and I will advise once I know the schedule.

REMEDIATION

At this point in time Whitman is now in the process of finalizing both the Remedial Investigation Report (RIR)and the Remedial Action Work (RAW) plan for the property for submittal and approval through the LSRP by NJDEP. The CVS property will be incorporated as part of this plan although able to proceed separate from the remaining activity on the balance of the site. Whitman is attempting to have this report submitted within the next few weeks.I hope this provided some clarity on the current status and feel free to call me if you'd like to discuss further.

Sincerely,

Ray Rice

Jade Hackettstown Associates, LLC

Darrin Darrin
Apr '14

Re: Bergen Tool- CVS approved

So ray rice has admitted there is asbestos in the remaining piles of rubble, and that the snow has stopped him from cleaning it up for the past 5 weeks, anyone else seeing the bs in this story? Yet they want to proceed with the building of CVS without proper approvals.....unbelievable!

Here is the site today....

And also here is the April 22, 2014 meeting agenda

http://www.hackettstown.net/app/download/2760581/PL04_22_2014agenda.doc

Darrin Darrin
Apr '14

Perhaps you should look for the container

There is a second container that holds a small amount of asbestos that was removed from the building and this will be removed.

Brad
Apr '14

Darlin',

Do you think the description provided by Rice is accurate? Do you think any of the described activities are in violation of any law or regulation? It sounds like they are currently operating under two demolition permits. Is he following conditions of that permit?

Gadfly Gadfly
Apr '14

Re: Bergen Tool- CVS approved

did you just call me darlin'????

Secondly yes I do believe rice was accurate, up until he said " The roofing material because it had asbestos material in it will be remediated and the masonry material recycled. Regarding the roofing material due to the time the building was taken down the material was covered in snow and unable to be removed. Now that the weather has turned better this will be able to be removed"

That is bogus, when the building was taken down the snow was almost all gone, and by the time they were done with demolition and piles remained there was no snow. This is not a adequate excuse on leaving material known to has asbestos open to the wind for 5 weeks.

As far as the other statements, we would be just taking his word for it, I was under the impression that when demolishing a building without FIRST removing the asbestos one had to either hose it down to keep asbestos from going air born or tarp the work area, none of which I or any other neighbors I talk to saw.

I think if they were truly following remediation code, there also would be tarps over known contaminated piles. It has me very leery and more research has to be done on my part before I can really call it untrue. I have requested a copy of the site remediation plan from our town engineer, that should lay out the exact details in what procedures should be taken, and I will have a better understanding then.

It is also concerning to me that it took my questions to both the mayor and our town engineer to get any sort of status update on the site, which took a week in itself to get. These are our town representatives that need to be up to date with everything going on at this site. Hopefully with the public will be able to continue to receive up to date info from reliable sources.

Oh, btw, here was Bergen Street AFTER the rain settled!

Darrin Darrin
Apr '14

The roof materiel Rice is talking about is the old shingles which are of no danger to anyone unless they are eaten, not the same as asbestos pipe or wall insulation. Probably the same as all of the roofs on the remaining buildings.

eapos eapos
Apr '14

http://www.oldhouseweb.com/how-to-advice/cement-asbestos-roofing.shtml

"Asbestos containing products, like cement asbestos roofing and siding, have the fibers imbedded in the Portland cement, and there is little health risk if the material is in good condition and not disturbed. Severely worn or damaged roofs and walls, or improper repairs, alterations, or removal can allow release of the fibers and risk the health of the occupants and neighbors."

so to sum up, you are correct, left untouched it is not dangerous, but crushed up as the developer has done is when it is most dangerous.

Darrin Darrin
Apr '14

Ray Rice could give a rats a%$ what happens to me you or the wall it's all about the $

coldout coldout
Apr '14

Correct...he could care less about the safety of Hackettstown citizens its all about the money with that guy! IF HE GAVE A SHIT the project would have safety parameters in place!

pampurr pampurr
Apr '14

You MUST submit these pictures to the Star Ledger. THE DAILY RECORD..and the Herald..there is a story to tell here. Pictures are worth a thousand words.

pampurr pampurr
Apr '14

According to the CDC, there are good reasons why not to let asbestos laden materials lying about:

"When a substance is released from a large area, such as an industrial plant, or from a container, such as a drum or bottle, it enters the environment. This release does not always lead to exposure. You are exposed to a substance only when you come in contact with it. You may be exposed by breathing, eating, or drinking the substance, or by skin contact.

If you are exposed to asbestos, many factors determine whether you'll be harmed. These factors include the dose (how much), the duration (how long), the fiber type (mineral form and size distribution), and how you come in contact with it. You must also consider the other chemicals you're exposed to and your age, sex, diet, family traits, lifestyle (including whether you smoke tobacco), and state of health."

Later in the article:

"Asbestos fibers do not evaporate into air or dissolve in water. However, pieces of fibers can enter the air and water from the weathering of natural deposits and the wearing down of manufactured asbestos products. Small diameter fibers and fiber-containing particles may remain suspended in the air for a long time and be carried long distances by wind or water currents before settling. Larger diameter fibers and particles tend to settle more quickly. Asbestos fibers are not able to move through soil."

http://www.atsdr.cdc.gov/phs/phs.asp?id=28&tid=4

So probably not good to bust up asbestos tainted materials and then leave them exposed to the elements, including flowing water.

mistergoogle mistergoogle
Apr '14

Pampurr, I sent the pictures to the mayor and our town engineer already. Be at Tuesday's meeting because we need to speak up that we do not want a half asked cleanup like this, and use it as leverage to not allow cvs to start building their building early. If the developer cannot take the proper steps in concern for the residents why should we go above and beyond and amend rules that were agreed to only to benefit cvs? maybe if CVS does not get what they want because of the developers actions are they will pressure the developer to do the correct thing.

MG, thank you for the valuable info.

Has everyone received their certified letters?

Darrin Darrin
Apr '14

Thanks Mr. G...for the information..not good any way ya look at it....its a dangerous substance.

pampurr pampurr
Apr '14

Darrin ...yes received my letter...

pampurr pampurr
Apr '14

So how long to we have to look at this mess? It is a dangerous situation that anyone could walk into. There is not even a decent fence around it ! ! !

Bernie Bernie
Apr '14

Plenty of links in the previous thread stating inhaled airborne asbestos is the primary issue. Keep that in mind while you are trying to scare everyone reading this thread.

As I've said earlier, this is a mountain/mole hill issue unless there is a potential for airborne release.

justintime justintime
Apr '14

justintime,

This is not about scaring the neighborhood, it is about informing the neighborhood with the most accurate information. There is a responsibility for the developer to keep us informed with proper update and timelines. This is not only reasonable but required.

Don't think that contractors/developers don't cut corners for one reason or another. The town needs to keep the developer's feet to the fire and make sure things are being handled properly and responsibly, especially when there are hazardous materials involved.

As citizens, we have a right to question if things are being handled the correct way. If we get no answers in a timely matter, then there is cause for skepticism on how things are being handled. Our community needs to make sure these things get done safely and correctly. A current timeline and site inspections should be ongoing by a public advocate to inform and protect our community-PLAIN AND SIMPLE.

THE MORP
Apr '14

JIT, how do you figure that crushing asbestos containing roofing with a escavator into the small pieces you can see in the pictures I have posted is not a potential for airborne release?

Considering we would be affected by it, we have every right to be concerned. I would think you would feel differently if it was your children walking by the site to go to school, at least I hope you would.

Darrin Darrin
Apr '14

MORP, it is about scaring a neighborhood if we over-exaggerate the problems as is being done here on HL.

Look, I agree the cleanup situation needs to be dealt with and I also agree that the *potential* for hazardous material to cause harm is there (although I think it is a very, very, very small -as in incredibly small - potential). And I really feel bad for those who live next to the site while it's being developed because it is an eyesore and because there are questions you need answered effectively.

As was posted in the earlier thread (and below), asbestos is really an airborne problem that targets our lungs. That being the case, the question should be what levels of asbestos are being released into the air? I would fully understand asking to have some tests done to get a PPM count that can be compared scientifically to a published "safe" level? If the town or developer won't do it, then how about getting a quote to have it done and asking for funding using Kickstarter? I would definitely donate a few dollars to find out the real extent of the problem.

Personally, I just don't see an effective transmission mechanism or any type of levels that could be harmful here which is why I keep being a thorn in the side.

http://www.atsdr.cdc.gov/asbestos/asbestos/health_effects/

(note the first words in the first paragraph on the page. Also read the sub sections for details)

justintime justintime
Apr '14

JIT: I agree that the risk is probably minimal in this case, and even more minimal (especially for Hackettstown) for water borne, but the science does say that it's possible that if left lying about, that it can move. Also, we really don't know if any asbestos is even in the material piles.

You are mostly right that it's usually an airborne release but IF it gets into your drinking water, that's another way to ingest it. So, if left on the ground even attached to other materials like roofing, bricks, etc. the possibility exists first for erosion, breakage, etc. to further free the material for either airborne or water contamination. IF water borne, it goes downstream, perhaps enters someone's water supply or perhaps goes on-shore, dries and becomes airborne. I would doubt that's going to be Hackettstown problem, but does provide risk for downstream.

And while it will not move through the earth, if left there it can later free up into the air or into the water if the earth is moved at some point like say, for construction.

Since the whole thing is about quantity available, quantity ingested, you are probably right that the risk is minimal.

But in a science where less is better, breaking materials up, leaving them laying around, does produce future risk, albeit probably slight in this case.

mistergoogle mistergoogle
Apr '14

So jit, if you had kids, or if you do you would feel completly comfortable with letting them walk by the site every day?

There really has been no exaggeration as you say, just a huge concern on why we cannot get adequate facts from our town on the cleanup. And why our town officials are not involved in overseeing the cleanup for our saftey.

For you to say the asbestos is a minimal risk is guessing just as much as it is for us to say it is a deadly level, but since it seems no tests have been done and we cannot get any real answers we play it on the safe side and consider it worse case senereo until we can get real answers. Better safe then sorry.

Darrin Darrin
Apr '14

"Also, we really don't know if any asbestos is even in the material piles"

MG, yeah we do, mr rice said it in his statement

The bottom line is even if it is a "risk" it is one the neighbors should not be put through had the piles been cleaned up properly

Darrin Darrin
Apr '14

"So jit, if you had kids, or if you do you would feel completly comfortable with letting them walk by the site every day?"

Absolutely, and without hesitation. Allowing them onto the site is something completely different though. I agree there are potential hazards, but being exposed to those hazards means you are breaking the law yourself by trespassing.

"For you to say the asbestos is a minimal risk is guessing "

Actually, I'm not guessing at all. How many links do I need to provide that discuss what the hazards of asbestos are? The science is pretty tight. Mesothelioma, for instance, is well documented as being caused by long term exposure to high levels of airborne asbestos. The link I just provided (just as the previous links) also describes that there have been no repeatable test that shows any correlation of asbestos causing long term hazards other than through inhalation - in large quantities and over a long period of time.

You are right to be concerned about keeping friable materials to a minimum. I would never say otherwise. And quite frankly I think you are doing the right thing by being vocal and active in pursuing the cleanup of this site. Keep it up, you've got plenty of people who agree with you.

But I think you should focus on other issues. The asbestos angle IMO has run it's course.

justintime justintime
Apr '14

JIT,

I appreciate the link. This is information that we need to help educate us in what are the facts pertaining to this issue.

You might feel safe to let your kid walk by the site but I don't get have that feeling. That being said, I am a man that errs on the side of caution. So again, one of my issues is updated and current timelines before any work is started. If they are doing demolition on Monday, then my kid doesn't walk to school and gets a ride there. So, it makes sense for the developer to keep the neighborhood in the loop of what and when things are happening. And in the meantime, I educate myself and my family on the issues at hand by fact finding. And so, when questions are asked by citizens to those who are supposedly in charge, we should get the factual answers from them. If there are no factual answers, then demolition should not start until we get them.

I hope that you can appreciate where I'm coming from.

THE MORP
Apr '14

Jit, I was not saying you were guessing about the asbestoes being dangerous, I meant you were guessing on the level of asbestoes that is being released, the truth of it is none of us know, we know it is definitely there, but we don't know along what levels. I agree with themorph, that more public disclosure needs to happen, so we do not need to be asking these questions.

Good information on the dangerousness of it, I was always under the impression that even with a single fiber, if it got lodged in right you can run a risk, but you have posted otherwise. I guess look at it like second hand had smoke, why should we be exposed to it at all? If clean up was done and the piles were not left sitting for 7 weeks, and it was easier to get information, we wouldn't be wondering these things.

Darrin Darrin
Apr '14

MORP ...A current timeline from THE DEVELOPER to the residents that live next to this site would have been nice! The way they do one thing is the way they do everthing.. just sayin

pampurr pampurr
Apr '14

By the way, due to the age of these buildings the brick morter most likely is asbestos laden too.

eapos eapos
Apr '14

If there is ever a time for the residents near the BERGEN TOOL SITE to band together, the time is now! There are loads of children on Bergen and East Prospect. The fact that there has been asbestos laying out in the open not protected, and total disregard for the safety of others is pathetic if you ask me. There is always risk of contamination when dealing with harmful chemicals/ toxins like asbestos. I will see you all at the meeting. Those of you that sit back and wait for others, enjoy the ride. To those of you who have paved the way " Thank You".


Eapos, yes, that is where the concern origionally came up and was discussed in another post as jit says, first the developer had a dust cloud going across the neighborhood, and now he has left aesbestoes materials out for over 7 weeks, how much does it take for people to realize things are not being done properly?

Darrin Darrin
Apr '14

Just a reminder, The meeting is a 7:30 tonight.

CVS is asking to begin building their building before their required DOT application is passed.

It is a change to the resolution, because they originally agreed to this condition, but then never filed the DOT permit in a timely manner (at the last meeting they said they still had not filed, yet were looking to get moving on building)

Darrin Darrin
Apr '14

Have any of you called the DEP yet? Just curious....

gadfly gadfly
Apr '14

Update from last night's meeting,

Obviously it has been mentioned what the meeting was about, It came very close to being passed with the stipulation that our town engineer would oversee the whole process and any changes to the runoff issue would be immediately addressed by our town engineer, as I stated during comment, the town would be gambling with the well being of the surrounding residents and that would not be fair to us, especially after being involved for years reviewing multiple runoff plans, and now to change all that in a whim would not be right.

Luckily through public comment and the support of Mr. Burke and Mr. Campoirini, the amendment to the resolution was delayed to next month and CVS must first produce a new plan that will show what changes this will cause to the original runoff plans and it has to be available for public review prior to the meeting.

Thank you to all who made the right choice in this matter, I am very happy with the outcome.

Darrin Darrin
Apr '14

This is good! I would also like to extend my thanks to Mr. Burke and Mr. Camporini for their support ....Also to the citizens who came out last night to present the facts to the Planning Board and the CVS attorney.

pampurr pampurr
Apr '14

I would like to make a point.

The approval has more steps to go through.

The open land stated in the beginning of all this mess will still belong to the owner of the developed property. It is not open free land for the public to do with what they want to.
Unless the town is given the property of open land, It will continue to be private property and you will be trespassing.
I think that the public thinks that this will become a place for their pleasure.
The detention ponds will belong to the owner of the project and that too will be private property and the developers responsibility.
The Town of Hackettstown should be aware of this and not accept anything to do with these areas as it will become a burden on the taxpayers.
The state must still approve the project.
I hope the Hackettstown Planning Board makes this clear at the public meeting.
There is a few more permits that will be needed before any building can take place.
The pipes for drainage will be under NJ STATE Highway and must be approved before anything can be done under the State Highway.
Charlie

Charlie Charlie
Apr '14

Charlie,

You bring up a good point, DOT approval is not only for the roadway changes, part of the DOT approval that CVS is trying to start without is the drainage changes. DOT has to review the plan that took us over a year to come to terms with, being this can directly affect a state highway there very possibly could be changes needed. The review of the professionals is the only safety net our neighborhood has to make sure that these plans, calculations, and data collected is correct.

I would like to know if and when a meeting occurs in Trenton over this project, it may be worth the trip to a group of us to go down and present the flooding photos as we did to our planning board. CVS just filed the DOT application 2 weeks ago, so if there is a meeting it may be coming up some point in the next few months, does anyone know how to find out about this?

You are right about the phase 2 park, it should be able to be used by the public as a park, but should not have to be maintained by the town, as the main reason the retention pond is necessary is the new coverage and grading changes to the property. Sure it will help the neighbors, but really it is helping to protect us from what the development of this property will create. In October the phase 2 representatives said they were 60-90 days out from a formal plan...200+ days later we still have not seen this plan, and nobody (our board or engineer) has heard anything about it. Makes you wonder IF and WHEN the phase 2 will ever happen, don;t hold your breath!

Darrin Darrin
Apr '14

Does anybody know if the state DOT approval for drainage and road improvements has a Public hearing like our town planning board does? Where can I find this info out for if and when CVS potentially will have this meeting on the state level?

Darrin Darrin
Apr '14

i know i said i was done with this thread but i feel bad that you keep asking the same questions and no one is telling you where to find the answers. So here:

http://www.nj.gov/transportation/about/directory/northregion.shtm#permit


I don't think a meeting with take place in Trenton, more likely it will take place in our local DOT office which is in Mt Arlington. Call them if you want answers.

darwin darwin
Apr '14

Good to know, thank you darwin, did you enjoy the town meeting?

Darrin Darrin
Apr '14

i was a little disappointed. i was actually in favor of the town approving CVS's request. As everyone on the board pointed out the issues with the site are with the property owner. CVS has not had anything to do with the site and won't have anything to do with the site until the buy it from the owner. So in my opinion CVS could have been a good ally for the town. The property owner is only motivated by $ and has no urgeny to do anything on the site until they get closer to being paid by CVS. So if we were to approve CVS's requests, as the lawyer said, everything would be happening sooner, including the site cleanup. I gaurantee the owner would have the site cleaned up if they knew CVS had a large check waiting for them.

So now you won't see anything done on the site for another month or 2. All those bricks and crap on the site will sit there for many more weeks, when instead they might have been gone by now if we approved CVS's request. the board even said they have no power to make things happen on the site, but CVS does since they will not buy the site until it is cleaned up. Oh well, hope everyone enjoys looking at those bricks until Labor day because it seems like they will be there until at least then

Again CVS's lawyer gave testomony that they will do whatever our town engineer wants them to do until the DOT approvals come in. And since the board seems to listen to whatever our town engineer tells them i don't see what was the point of the board wanting to see some sort of temp plans at the next meeting before they approve CVS's requests.

I can almost predict what the next meeting will sound like

Board: "ok thanks for the plans, mr engineer what do you think of these plans?"
Engineer: I approve them since i helped design them"
Board: ok great we approve CVS's reguest"

or they could have jsut aprroved CVS's request at the last meeting and gave control to the town engineer and had faith he would do right by the town instead of wasting another 30days

darwin darwin
Apr '14

I see your point, but as I stated, we all have the right to see plans if they are going to be changing the design, DOT approval is not only street changes it is Drainage changes, something that is a necessity to the development of the property.

I agree with you that the cleanup is not CVS's issue, but by bringing it to the boards attention during the meeting gets those facts on public record, CVS would have definitely gone back to the developer and gave them grief over the fact that their actions have hindered CVS getting approval. The developer can wait to clean it up if he wants, eventually a formal complaint will be filed and the developer will be fined and end up cleaning up the property anyways.

It's not fair to the affected neighbors to risk their homes being flooded on the direct actions of our town engineer, we need to see the plan, so we know if what is being done is proper. So I see your point, but your point really only stands because you would not be affected if there was a mistake made, so to you it is worth the risk to get the property cleaned up, to the people that could be flooded, we would rather see it drawn out and done properly, after all based on the testimonies given by multiple surrounding neighbors, we see where rushing the developer has gotten us, and that is a far from proper cleanup.

So the question is, is it worth it for us to let the developer cut corners and do a improper cleanup for the payback of getting the site cleaned up quicker?

Come to the next meeting, you may be surprised with some of the questions that will be asked

Darrin Darrin
Apr '14

the board is going to approve CVS's request at the next meeting. Heck 2 were ready to approve it at the last meeting. Burke and Camporini will review the plans submitted and then turn to the town engineer and then approve them. All they did was delay the approval by 30days.

CVS and the town engineer will present plans on a temporary solution to the flooding while they wait for the DOT approvals. There is not going to be any expert witness or case study done on these temp plans like there was with the permenant plans. Also CVS said they will listen to the town engineer if any other temporary changes need to be made down the line. They might even just suggest digging a trench on the side of Stiger where the new pipe will go in.

Again CVS is just asking to begin construction on the building, they are not asking to change any of the approved site plans.

darwin darwin
Apr '14

You are most likely correct, but time will tell. CVS needs to come up with these plans first, and the public gets to question about the plans. A laid out runoff plan is what we want to see, that way it is not a free for all, do whatever you want, but call the town engineer after there is a problem and it is too late. That's the risk we should not have to take, we need proof the situation will not get worse during the construction.

I doubt the town engineer will be overseeing the project every day to make his concerns about runoff, so this seems to be the best plan of action, way better then the wait until it is too late one. As I said in the meeting, it is the least they can do for the neighbors who have been involved in the project for over a year reviewing multiple runoff plans, it's not fair to change it in a whim, even if it is temporary.

And yes I know they are not technically making plan changes, but starting to build before the other buildings are knocked down as depicted in every one of their runoff studies can be very dangerous, they specifically calculated site runoff with the whole area that is currently buildings gone. And they cannot build the temporary retention area as promised without taking down the buildings, as well they cannot put in the new drainage under east stiger without DOT approval, so really it is changing quite a bit.

Honestly shame on CVS for not filing sooner, they filed for DOT approval two weeks before the meeting, tell me again why we should feel bad for them?

Darrin Darrin
Apr '14

So when will cvs start building

happiness
Apr '14

If the town gave CVS permission to start building while they were waiting for the DOT approval for the street changes. CVS would have started construction in May with the hopes of opening by the end of the yr. if the board approves their request at next month's meeting then every thing gets pushed back a month. If the board makes them wait for the DOT approval they might be able to start by Labor Day and open in spring 2015.

Darwin Darwin
Apr '14

So what happens when the developer continues to improperly knock down the buildings while CVS is going up, does that mean the new CVS building will now contain asbestos?

From what I gather the initial set of buildings were knocked down before CVS had a appointed LSRP, So i am hoping to see a change in how things are done when they start the actual demolition.

Darrin Darrin
Apr '14

Looks like there is public meetings, although I am going to call someone to find out if CVS will have one, There is like a million different phone numbers, so finding out who to call looks challenging.

http://www.nj.gov/transportation/community/meetings/index.shtml#1

If there is a public meeting, it will be the neighbor's opportunity to present the state with the same photos as we did our town, and let them be a second judge of our situation at hand and what was decided to rectify the problem. A second opinion never hurt anyone.

Darrin Darrin
Apr '14

Through multiple hoops and phone calls I received the LSRP's contact info for the site, he is the only person to talk to about any environmental cleanup or contamination concerns:
Dave Robinson, Synergy Environmental Inc. 856-874-4448

I also spoke with our town construction official, Mr. Oconner, who was very nice and very helpful. He said if anyone has questions about anything with the site you can contact him too. 908-850-0660 EXT 118.

Unfortunately I have found that the DEP has no concerns about the cleanup at all, and all concerns have to go through the LSRP.

Also the meeting agenda for May 27, 2014 has been posted, and both phase 2 and the CVS start before DOT approval is on it.

http://www.hackettstown.net/app/download/3103771/PL05_27_2014agenda.doc

Darrin Darrin
May '14

CVS was approved to build prior to DOT after some MAJOR changes to the construction plan they presented, thanks to public comment. Thanks again to all who went, and all who put their input in and got us a temporary retaining pond in this early stage. How CVS had the plan laid out, it would of definitely flooded the residents but after public comment our town engineer agreed and the changes were made.

As much as I would of liked to see it go up for public review again, I think we all covered our basis very well

Darrin Darrin
May '14

glad the board approved CVS's request to proceed while they wait for the DOT. Now let the cleanup and building begin!!!

darwin darwin
May '14

Don't count on the cleanup beginning right away, it is further out then you think, that was discussed at the meeting as well. We will now see a new CVS building surrounded by the old buildings. All this does is impedes the proper cleanup of the site, but at the same time speeds the process along, as long as CVS and Jade can get along, there has been many problems it does seem between the two of them. I am as well happy that this went up for public review, as a lot of changes were made due to the public.

FYI to all, I spoke with DOT today and they have NOT received a application from CVS, CVS has claimed that they filed, but DOT is saying no.....take it however you want, but I know what it means.

Follow up Email from DOT after my phone call:

It was pleasure talking to you on phone. As discussed, this office has not received the application from CVS yet. Your concerns will be taken into account as a part of CVS application review process. If you have any question, please contact me.
Anil

Darrin Darrin
May '14

Darrin did you check to see if the application was filed under the the Realty Corporation as it appeared on the agendas? Just a thought that they may be still using that name until it is built??

Michele Morpeth Michele Morpeth
May '14

That's a good question Michele, although I think the DOT would of been knowledgeable of it being a CVS, considering they completely review the plans, I did just email them back to find out:

(Is it a possibility CVS filed under First Hartford Reality instead? I believe that is what they have been going by at the town meetings. Their site location is on the corner of main (route 46) and stiger street in Hackettstown, NJ 07840)

EDIT:

Michele, you are very correct, Paul just emailed me and told me the two permits that were filed were

Street Intersection Permit Application- Town of Hackettstown
Major Access Permit for New Driveway- First Hartford Realty LLC

The first one was actually filed by our town, and the second by CVS

Being that DOT discussed and asked about what changes were being made, I would think that if they had saw the plans that they would of remembered it just being another name, but anything seems to be a possibility.

Darrin Darrin
May '14

Whatever goes in that site (whenever that is) will be much nicer then the eyesore thats been there abandoned for the last 10 years.

singh singh
May '14

FYI to all, I spoke with DOT today and they have NOT received a application from CVS, CVS has claimed that they filed, but DOT is saying no.....take it however you want, but I know what it means.

LOL of course it was filed under the Corp name and not under CVS. At every meeting it was First Reality But i will give you credit Darrin you are doing much more all the complainers on this thread.

darwin darwin
May '14

Will we ever get a Trader Joe's??? That would be so much better than ANOTHER pharmacy.

Can the town BID call Trader Joe's and request a site visit or something? I know it would go well because most of the ppl I know drive all the way to Hanover every week to load up.

Heidi Heidi
May '14

Darwin, the point is, I spoke with the head DOT official of Warren county, and he asked for particulars from the designed plans, i would think in case it was filed under a different name(other then CVS), and he did not remember seeing any of the plans I described. But I do have a email out to him with the actual application names just to be sure, I will check back, hopefully it was just a mistake, or maybe it just didn't ring a bell.

" But i will give you credit Darrin you are doing much more all the complainers on this thread."

I will take that as a compliment I suppose, as I said before, there is a big difference between simply complaining and being genuinely concerned.

Darrin Darrin
May '14

it was a compliment. i give you credit for attending the meetings, voicing your concerns and doing your own research, unlike the some others that just came on here to complain and/or attending the meetings but only snickered in the back of the room.

Now correct me if i am wrong but there is a pile of rumble where the new CVS will go right? So CVS is not going to buy the lot from Rice until that is cleaned up. Also CVS will not be able to open for business until the other buildings are torned down and cleaned up. So now CVS will be pressuring Rice to clean up the remaining lot which is a good thing. So if we had to wait for the DOT then only the town ( which they said they have no authority to do) would be the ones pressuring Rice to clean up the lot. Now CVS will be holding a large check over Rice's head which will motivate him to clean it up.

this is a win win win win. Rice gets paid, CVS gets to start construction, the town gets to see this eye sore cleaned up and the residents in the area get their flooding concerns addressed.

darwin darwin
May '14

Okay, Confirmed, DOT has not receive the permits, from DOT:

"I have only one permit at that location and was approved back in year 2001 by our office. Permit was given to Township of Hackettstown and P & D Realty."

I have sent Paul a email to confirm that we are on the same page with location. as I am not sure who P&D realty is, and what was going on in 2001...

Darrin Darrin
May '14

my head is spinnig trying to follow your emails

Who is Paul?

so they didn't get them, then they did, now they didn't?

darwin darwin
May '14

Paul sterbenz is our town engineer, don't know where you have been, or what you have been paying attention to at the meetings! LMAO

I never said they got them, you were the one that mentioned the fact that they may of filed under a different name, I checked and they did not have anything filed under any name for that property, the last DOT filing for Bergen tool property was in 2001.

And I do see your point that you raised above, although I am not completely sure how the money will be handed out. I say well see what happens because I have heard from multiple reliable sources, from both construction companies and our town building conductor that demolition stopped because Rice stopped paying the demolition team. The demolition team packed up and left.

Darrin Darrin
May '14

"I have only one permit at that location and was approved back in year 2001 by our office. Permit was given to Township of Hackettstown and P & D Realty."

I believe that is the Quick chek/Shoprite Liquors Mall

Brad2
May '14

Sorry I forgot you were on first name basis with Mr. Sterbenz when you said you emailed Paul and he said they had 2 applications I assumed you were talking about a contact from the DOT. So cvs said they filed and our town engineer said they filed but the DOT says they don't have any applications?

Darwin Darwin
May '14

Close, that's pretty much the case, CVS claimed they filed two weeks prior to the April meeting, if you remember, I know you went to that meeting, Mr. Sterbenz has not given any comment on if they have filed or not, and DOT said they have not received the alleged application.

I did find it strange that at they May meeting, when asked by our board, CVS would not give a answer on if they received any sort of conformation or receipt that the DOT application was received.

Darrin Darrin
May '14

"And I do see your point that you raised above, although I am not completely sure how the money will be handed out. I say well see what happens because I have heard from multiple reliable sources, from both construction companies and our town building conductor that demolition stopped because Rice stopped paying the demolition team. The demolition team packed up and left."

If you think about it Darwin, CVS will most likely not give Jade the full payment for the deal until the rest of the buildings are down and CVS can get their CO, they have to rely on Jade for that. If you remember at the April meeting I asked if Jade fails to take down the buildings, will CVS take them down, and CVS reluctantly finally answered they would have to. And also if you remember the CVS attorney expressed that there has already been issues arising, which I asked him to expand upon, but he obviously wouldn't.

If the demolition team has already packed up and left due to lack of payment, will they be the same ones back to the rest of the job? And why did Jade stop paying them, was it because the insurance money ran out from the buildings roof collapsing due to snow, or is Jade out of money? These things are important, because if Jade is out of money, we may end up getting a half completed project, and even more worrying, they will not hold up to the promise of "a balance of old buildings coming down as they new buildings is going up" for runoff issues that's what was promised.

More importantly, if they are running low on money they may try to cut corners. Which as you can see not everything is flowers and sunshine over there, Ray Rice flat out lied on the letter I posted a while back, saying "Regarding the roofing material
due to the time the building was taken down the material was covered in snow and unable to be removed. Now that the weather has turned better this will be able to be removed." which is obviously a lie, considering the weather has been nice for how many months now? With no set timeline it is anyone's guess it seems.

Making the site "look" nice means nothing to the benefit of our town if they are not going to properly clean it up.

Darrin Darrin
May '14

Darrin I couldn't agree with you more.. The planning board and the concerned residents have these meetings to ensure that the property gets cleaned up correctly. Once the new buildings are built the town, it's residents and taxpayers have no more say... Rice , CVS or whomever won't tear down any part of a new building to fix an issue.

michele morpeth michele morpeth
May '14

Darrin, shouldn't the permits go to the State of NJ DOT since it is a state road? Just curious.

Christine Christine
May '14

Christine, yes you are correct.

What we are talking about here, (actually up a little) is that CVS said that they filed 6 weeks ago for this state DOT permit, and in talking to DOT person who handles permits for warren county, I am told he has not seen these permits. I have put him in contact with Mr. Sterbenz, our town engineer, and have not heard anything back since, so I would say they have not filed....but why then did they say that they did file at our town meeting in May, under oath no less??

Darrin Darrin
Jun '14

So new update, David Robinson is not the LSRP, I had contacted him and he immediately sent this back

"Hello Darrin, I have not been the LSRP on that site for 3 years. I am of sure who the LSRP is now, but the last I heard the project is being managed by the Whitman Companies. The Project Manager was Jessica Trifiro. Her number at Whitman is 732-390-5858."

So at least from that we get a contact for the Whitman firm, but it does not explain why our town construction official has not known the LSRP for three years....interesting

Darrin Darrin
Jun '14

Well it looks like the same old program is going on.
I am not sure if you know but shouldn't people talk to the neighboring towns about this company and how they work.
I am quite sure that the planning bd. would learn a lot.
All they have to do is look over their shoulder, ask questions.
I am sure they and the general public will be surprised how much is going on in one of our neighboring towns.
Yes they too have problems ( our neighbors).
The contractor changes plans like we do our laundry.
Once again I found out interesting information.
You can do the same.
CVS is only doing what they feel is right.
The rest of the project is constantly being changed.
I wish the Planning BD and the Mayor would ask around and find out how many other projects by this company are trying to pull the wool over their towns eyes.
The hard cold facts are out there. Make some calls to other town leaders and you will see and hear other issues.
Darrin, keep up the good work but make a couple of calls and listen to what takes place. What a surprise when I was in Belvidere and listened to people talk about appeals by a neighboring town with this contractor.
Good Luck Charlie

Charlie Charlie
Jun '14

Here's some CVS's from various towns, you can do some clicking around to find out more what citizens are saying doing, and acting upon::

http://www.progresslex.org/lexington-deserves-better/

http://www.seminoleheightsblog.com/?p=989

http://pvpost.com/2012/07/31/construction-wraps-on-corinth-cvs-opening-scheduled-for-aug-12-11265

http://oururbantimes.com/business-news/new-cvs-pharmacy-opens-old-wicker-park-bank

I love the third one. The fourth one sounds like what Bergen tool could have been. I found these by googling "cvs pictures" and then clicking on the page associated with the pic; probably lots more "info" how people have either made or not made CVS do the right thing.

mistergoogle mistergoogle
Jun '14

Darrin any updates on that DOT application? Attorney said he filed it to weeks prior to the meeting..

pampurr pampurr
Jun '14

The update i received from out town engineer is that CVS did file when they said, but they improperly filed, so the application was rejected, which is why when i spoke to DOT they had no clue of the application. CVS has apparently recently re-applied for DOT.

Why CVS was unwilling to share this information at the last meeting when asked, i am sure because it would of hurt them more then helped, but ignoring the board members question, and beating around the bush rather then answering honestly was very unprofessional

Darrin Darrin
Jun '14

Re: Bergen Tool- CVS approved

Due to the unfenced construction going on at Bergen tool, people like this just walk onto the property. I am done caring, as obviously the property owner does not care enough to put up no trespassing signs and/or a proper fence. The trespassers asked me who's property it was and if they could take bricks, I told them Jade land co. owns the property and I wouldn't take the bricks....

It is not my place to tell them they cannot go on the property, nor is it my place to tell them that there is hazardous materials on the property. If the owner chooses to leave the property unfenced and un marked in the current condition that it is his is what happens, hopefully nobody gets hurt due to the property owners negligence.

They left empty handed

Darrin Darrin
Jun '14

There is a hole in the fence by the bike ramps. Kids got through and were on Bergen Field, when they spotted me and my dog they ran towards Main St.

pampurr pampurr
Jun '14

As much as I do not want to see anyone get hurt, the property owner seems to welcome it. If you look on you tube there is a video from a neighbor hood kid i believe going through all the buildings, mind you this was posted a while ago.

By the way i finally tracked down the new LSRP for the propertyy, he is Todd Gerber of the whitman co. His email is tgerber@whitmanco.com

and here is the email I recieved from whitman;s project manager pertaining to questions to the aesbestoes cleanup and aesbestoes that is currently in piles

Todd Gerber’s email address is tgerber@whitmanco.com. He’s been the LSRP for this project since January 2012. You indicated that you had several questions about the site but only mentioned the building construction debris and potential asbestos. Please be aware that this aspect is not covered under the LSRP oversight and regulations of the Department of Environmental Protection (NJDEP). Concerns regarding asbestos in the demolition debris would be covered under the purview of the Occupational Safety and Health Administration (OSHA). However, if you have any other questions, we will do our best to answer them.

It's real nice to waste a month sending emails and making phone calls to find out info that our town should have readily available to the public.....all to still get a run around...I have a email out requesting a contact at OSHA.

Darrin Darrin
Jun '14

The developer Rice said during the take down of the buildings they would be covered..because of the risk..asbestos...none of that occurred during the demolition of those buildings. In fact there was a cloud of those toxins that people witnessed billowing over the neighborhood close to Bergen...

pampurr pampurr
Jun '14

Once I am able to get a contact with whom we are to file complaints....sounds like you have one to file!

Darrin Darrin
Jun '14

Does anyone know what this is on the Mayor and council agenda?

Resolution to approve the CVS Developers Agreement

Darrin Darrin
Jun '14

"There is a hole in the fence by the bike ramps. Kids got through and were on Bergen Field, when they spotted me and my dog they ran towards Main St."

Pampur did you call anyone to let them know there is a hole in the fence? I know you are so concerned with the safety of our kids it would only make sense to notify someone that their fence was damaged, right?

darwin darwin
Jun '14

Whats the point darwin, the whole east stiger street side's fence is missing and has been for over 4 years, if the owner hasn't noticed they are blind, it is obvious the owner does not care, a phone call would be a waste of time, and it would probably take a month of phone calls before you were finally told who you should speak to about the issue....trust me, I am going through it now, nobody knows/or wants to give the answers.

Darrin Darrin
Jun '14

Darrin in the pic above I see a fence. Did these people walk over the fence? If so they are trespassing and I would have called the police.

Christine Christine
Jun '14

Re: Bergen Tool- CVS approved

Christine, the fence you see is down in many places, and only partially covers the property. Like I said above, it is not my job to regulate the property, if a inadequate fence is what the owner chooses to put up to secure the property, and he chooses to not maintain the fence people can and probably will walk onto the property. I am not for tattling on fellow residents, I on call CVS and Ray Rice out...lol!! Now if I saw them taking items from the property, that is a different story, I would of called the police.

Also we were told no trucks would be traveling on residential streets, today the truck with excavator came right down East Stiger Street and out East Prospect. They were not happy about me taking their photo, but I really don't care about how they feel!

We were also told that any dirt that was graded would be removed, as to not hinder the flow of water on the site, the pile pictured sits right in middle of a area that normally catches rain water.

Darrin Darrin
Jun '14

Your right Darrin be a waste of time to make the call. Kids would be long gone and the fencing is down in alot of areas....it is not my job to monitor that fence around the field...if Rice wants to be negligent that is his deal.

pampurr pampurr
Jun '14

So much for the huge rush to start building before DOT, not a single thing has been done on site for many weeks. I wonder what the hold up is?

Darrin Darrin
Jul '14

Heard CVS is going to Long Valley, too much aggravation in Hackettstown (See Long Valley Life)

eapos eapos
Jul '14

eapos, what thread because I could not find what you stated? I did find an article about their plans. Ray Rice is also that developer.


If one developer gets approval from various local and state boards and committees, the center of Long Valley would take on the face of a bustling downtown.

Developer Ray Rice has proposed to the town a sweeping change in the landscape and grounds on West Mill and Fairmount Roads that would consist of more than 100 new residences, two retail buildings, a community center and new firehouse for the Long Valley Company.

The development was discussed by the Washington Township Planning Board Monday night, and Rice is scheduled to present the concept to the Washington Township Committee Wednesday night.

Town planner David Banisch discussed the town’s requirements and possibilities of pursuing a process for development in downtown Long Valley under the current Highlands Town Center designation, according to member Bill Leavens.

“The board adopted a measure to advise the Township Committee that we have a real interest in planning which will conform to that designation, working with the Highlands Council staff under a grant that the town has applied for,” Leavens said in an email to Patch.

While there currently is no application for development before the board, the town has a “real opportunity to do some actual planning so that we are not always merely reacting to proposals which may or may not be suitable to the character of the town and in accord with the expectations of the people who live here,” Leavens continued.

A preliminary overlay sketch of the area – attached to this article – puts the majority of the development on the open land behind the Long Valley Middle School. An entryway from West Mill Road would be established a few hundred feet west of the school’s entrance, with a community center – flanked by two parking lots – on the left side.

Across the roadway from the community center is a proposed group of townhomes, 44 in all.

Behind the townhomes, or to the south of the development, is an oval shaped roadway with 72 single-family homes. Forty-two of the properties would wrap around the roadway, with the additional 30 on an island in the center of the loop.

The development carries across Fairmount Road with two proposed retail buildings of 2,200 square-feet and 1,500 square-feet, respectively. Those buildings would be the southernmost and easternmost structures in the plan.

To the north of the retail buildings would be a six-bay firehouse amounting to 13,575 square-feet, directly entered from Fairmount Road. Finally, a two-story, 20-unit apartment building would be constructed to the north of the firehouse to fulfill the state’s Council on Affordable Housing requirements.

New sketches have already been prepared, according to township administrator Andrew Coppola, and will likely be presented to the governing body Wednesday night. The meeting, which begins at 7:30 p.m. at 43 Schooley’s Mountain Road, is open to the public and residents are encouraged to attend.

Christine Christine
Jul '14

"Developer Ray Rice has proposed to the town a sweeping change in the landscape and grounds on West Mill "

Yeah this ray rice promises a lot, until he gets approval, then he just changes everything he promised to maximize his profit.

Lets see if they have as many problems with him as Hackettstown and CVS have had

Darrin Darrin
Jul '14

Re: Bergen Tool- CVS approved

So here is the updates from tonight's meeting, Jade, did not show up again...

There is issues between the property owner and CVS. CVS is unwilling to sign contract on the front parcel of property until Jade completes the environmental cleanup of the property.

Jade (for phase 2) is currently dealing with a 24 page report from our town engineer regarding necessary changes to their original submission, and thus far they have been unable to complete the changes (the reason they have missed the last two meetings).

Also there was mention that the highlands requirements have not been met and now a certified soil survey must be done on the site.

The pic was from today they pulled a huge tank out of the ground

Darrin Darrin
Jul '14

What the hell is going on there. Meanwhile Ray Rice is proposing developments in Long Valley and other areas in NW NJ.

kb2755 kb2755
Jul '14

Though some conversation with the property owner we have been able to work out a solution that updates will be passed down to concerned residents as to when site work will be occurring and what will be happening, this way people who would like to avoid the site, or just plain know what is going on will stay informed. I will try to post any and all updates I hear.

Here is the first update:

Soil and tank removal work is scheduled for the period between September 2nd and September 5th on the Bergen Tool Site

The contractor that will be doing this work is:
Kenneth J Gabel . Landmarkcompanies,1200 Sunnyview Oval,Keasbey NJ

Darrin Darrin
Aug '14

I see they broke up the slab that was where CVS will be and have begun removing the old footings, they moved all of the waste concrete and bricks to the rear of the property, and the reason for this is because it will be recycled.

The developer's current main concern is to get the CVS lot remediated so CVS can close on the front piece of property.

Darrin Darrin
Aug '14

The Ray Rice that showed up at the Washington Twp meeting to present the Jade proposal sounded like a saint.

OnTheEdge OnTheEdge
Aug '14

Anyone who thinks that the detention pond would have been open space is only fooling themselves.
It is still private property and the owners of the property will have to maintain the property.
This belongs to the owners of the property and if they get the approval, it will be their problem.
The town planning bd. should make it clear to the owners.

Charlie

Charlie Charlie
Aug '14

Charlie: Could be wrong here but I think the developers often turn open space over to the community.

mistergoogle mistergoogle
Aug '14

I guess that's something to look into,

I do not remember if that question was ever asked at a town meeting, probably because no plans for phase two have been publicly discussed yet, so as of now there are no plans for a park, only a ordinance that when someone builds on the site, they must make a park.

Darrin Darrin
Aug '14

It has always been made clear that the open space was not to be retention ponds but should be usable recreational space. If retention ponds are needed, that should not come out of the open space. I have put it on record at a few meetings over the years. The town need to be vigilant to make sure it stays that way. I believe it is stated in the town's master plan and the resolutions pertaining to the property.

THE MORP
Sep '14

The master plan, zoning, and resolutions regarding this property went out the window a long time ago. I would not be surprised to see the trend continue.

Denis Denis
Sep '14

retention ponds are a waste of space and a breeding ground for mosquitos


waste of space?

Darrin Darrin
Sep '14

Re: Bergen Tool- CVS approved

They are digging to China! If you look there is a full sized excavator down in that hole, and is digging down as far as the bucket can go. They have been working on this hole for days now.......Wonder what they are after?

Darrin Darrin
Sep '14

heard a rumor Jimmy Hoffa is burried on the site.

darwin darwin
Sep '14

Foundation and/or basement?

Darwin LOL

Christine Christine
Sep '14

According to the timeline we got, they are performing tank removal and soil testing, Could a tank be buried that far down? Or maybe the tank was leaking?

Christine, nah, it is in one specific spot they have been digging, they are after something, most of the soil that was removed was covered in plastic

that hole has to me at least 20-30 feet deep, probably more, I am just going off the heigth of the excavator and when he is in it you cannot see the escavator

Darrin Darrin
Sep '14

I think starting a excavator and rock truck at 7am on the weekend approx 60 feet from the houses is a little ridiculous. I still do not think the owner realizes he is working in a residential area (although I have reminded him of this)

Darrin Darrin
Sep '14

Darrin, no offense but you want him to get the work done but you don't want him to do it in any way that will temporarily inconvenience you? I would think that getting the work done would make you happy.

justintime justintime
Sep '14

I want him to get the work done properly, while respecting the fact that he is working in a residential area, I have mentioned that many times

Darrin Darrin
Sep '14

Darrin, Bergen Tool, happy, hmmmmm. Even the holes are too deep.

I like the Hoffa theory combined with the Gambino Excavation company doing the work to recover, remove, and replant the issue. If we don't hear from Darrin for a few days.........

mistergoogle mistergoogle
Sep '14

You'll always hear from me mg, it's the people who try to get me you'll have to worry about

Darrin Darrin
Sep '14

What, me worry? :>)

mistergoogle mistergoogle
Sep '14

I feel the same way when lawn mowers go off at 7am anyday!

Christine Christine
Sep '14

I think it really just blew my mind they started at 7am and left by 8:30am

Darrin Darrin
Sep '14

2 weeks ago I had a email out to the property owner, as he asked, If we had any concerns to email him.

I am concerned about the piles of dirt they pulled from the location of a underground oil tank and then covered. These covers have since ripped off in some areas during the big rain storm we had two weekends ago.

The first email I sent to the property owner he forwarded to the contractor

Nothing was done as far as covering the piles or telling me that it was nothing to be concerned about in a week after sending the first email, so I sent another asking if this was something to be concerned about, as generally if piles are covered in plastic it is for a reason, a week has gone by and I have not heard anything back, and the property owner wonders why assumptions are made?

Darrin Darrin
Sep '14

I have yet to hear any discussion of site layout, Certainly hope the same moron who laid out the Mansfield project has NO hand in this one,
Traffic in the ShopRite lot,the theater,etc. must have been by the planners little sister on his day off!! Don't you just love the layout at the theater,to come out to Allen road??
The Weiss complex may have greenery,but none is cared for and BLOCKS view in many intersections.Does anyone in government follow up on anything??

Oldtimer Oldtimer
Oct '14

If it is site layout for phase two, you are correct, as far as layout for CVS, it was approved last October, but still no construction

Darrin Darrin
Oct '14

...Reminded me to post

There will be trucks removing soil on Oct 6,7 th

Darrin Darrin
Oct '14

Last week the dirt piles that were removed from the 10,000 gallon tank area and had the covers torn off for over three weeks were trucked off site...

Can we assume that these piles were contaminated? I would say yes since the dirt was removed from the site and new fill brought in to replace it. If it was safe dirt I would assume they would of used it on site.

Now i am assuming because I have asked the property owner in two instances and have received noting in return other then a initial email to the construction company. After seeing nothing was done I followed up with the property owner and received nothing.

If the property owner didn't care to make sure the contaminated piles were properly covered, even after being told twice that the piles covers were torn off, what can we assume from that?

All I can say is I reached out to Ray Rice twice to show concern about the piles and the covers being blown off and I got nothing in response, and now the dirt is gone.

This goes back to what I said before obviously the property owner does not care, and if he doesn't care about something as simple as plastic covers being torn off (which was directly brought to his attention) what else doesn't he care about?

Again, we are left to assume, even though we were directly told by Mr. Rice that if we had any questions or concerns to reach out to him.

Darrin Darrin
Oct '14

Given your assumptions; perhaps someone should test the dirt they "trucked" in.

mistergoogle mistergoogle
Oct '14

There's more contamination from cars leaking oil than there is about a pile of dirt that sat around for a couple of weeks. Oil from cars *does* run off into streams and rivers where's the runoff from these piles *may* have travelled what, 10 ft from the pile? Assuming there was even a concern, it's probably a moot point.

Justintime Justintime
Oct '14

How come nobody that lives around the parameter of this property is not getting updates and timeline on demolition anymore from their lawyers? What's with that?

pampurr pampurr
Oct '14

Sounds like a lot of assuming going on!

Christine Christine
Oct '14

Well, when we are told not to assume by the property owner, and we were personally assured by Mr Rice that any questions can be simply answered by contacting him, then we go out of our way and give the property owner over three weeks to respond to two emails, with no response, I would say that yes, we are left to assume, do you have a better plan?

It's worry some that dirt removed from a known contaminated area was removed and tarpped for a obvious reason, within two days the tarp partially blew off, on the third day the property owner was notified. The tarps sat torn off for over three weeks despite numerous people working the site, and a second email after a week, I guess everyone was too busy to do the right thing, no assumptions there!

JT, who knows what was in the tank they pulled out, do you? it may not of been as simple as motor oil

Darrin Darrin
Oct '14

Pampurr, Mr Rice is emailing timelines to our town engineer, who in turn is emailing it out to a list of people. From this, as soon as I get the update, I try to post it on HL either in this thread or the Phase two thread, depending on what is more relevant.

In our discussion with Mr. Rice we collaboratively decided that the lack of communication has been the biggest downfall of the project.

Thus far we have been notified and I have posted everything that has been going on

No timelines for demolition have been given because there is no demolition work set to occur, Mr Rice said the main concern is the property cleanup on the front lot so that CVS can close on the sub divided property.

Darrin Darrin
Oct '14

Whose on the list from Sterbenz? you the communications manager for Ray Rice now? lol....

pampurr pampurr
Oct '14

It's better then not getting updates right?

Darrin Darrin
Oct '14

This whole thing is unbelievable

happiness
Oct '14

I appreciate it thanks much Darrin, but why can't the Mayor give updates? I hear her on local radio quite often.

pampurr pampurr
Oct '14

pampurr, I cannot speak for the mayor, and I am honestly just happy to be getting any sort of updates, we have been asking for them for well over a year now, so I will take what we can get.

I try to do my best to share what updates I hear as soon as I can for the benefit of the people who live close to this project.

Darrin Darrin
Oct '14

until you get updates please feel free to share all your assumptions with us :)

darwin darwin
Oct '14

I have received some information from the property owner to answer some questions hopefully.

The orange safety fence that is down all over is apparently not needed, and was only put up for their own use. I am slightly confused about this, because when i met Ray Rice in person, he said he was unaware and would have it replaced, but now apparently it is not needed.

Also, regarding the dirt piles, I was told they were removed because "it had a variety of regulated materials that exceeded measurable levels".......so that's contaminated? or does that mean something else?

Darrin Darrin
Oct '14

He couldn't be more vague. ..did he say what they were?..this guy Rice is something else.

pampurr pampurr
Oct '14

I double checked with the construction office on what Mr. Rice told me (that the construction fence is not needed) and the construction office, upon finding out this info immediately made the property manager replace the fence, and apparently fix other issues with the property which I am unsure of. A big thank you to the construction office for doing what was right!

As far as the contaminated piles and why they were not re-covered after having the covers blow off I still am yet to get a answer, every time I ask the question to the property owner I get some sort of left field answer that has nothing to do with the question, so I may have to pursue a different route.

Despite the fact that the piles are now gone, I still want a answer as to why the covers were not replaced, as it seems something improper happened right before our eyes and nobody on site cared to do anything about it.

Darrin Darrin
Oct '14

CVS wants to close on the property before Christmas, that's only if the front parcel passes the cleanup requirements.

Tried and tried and tried, but nobody will give a answer as to why the covers were not replaced after they blew off of the contaminated piles. When there is information you don't want others to have, it seems the simple answer is, ignore the question.

Darrin Darrin
Nov '14

At least it is no where near a Love Canal...


And you won't get an answer Darrin..that is the MO!

pampurr pampurr
Nov '14

Well it will most certainly be put on public record, if we ever have another planning board meeting, I have pictures of the piles uncovered, as well as multiple emails to the property owner. A no answer is not a option for me, it will not be forgotten.

Darrin Darrin
Nov '14

Wasn't the list of "contaminates" found in the soil presented at the 9/24/13 board meeting? I don't remember there being any alarming levels

darwin darwin
Nov '14

Darwin, the soil I am talking about was dug out from the area of a removed 10,000 gallon tank. I was only told the dirt was removed because "it had a variety of regulated materials that exceeded measurable levels". At the time you mention they did not say the contaminates in this location, they said there was a tank to be removed.

my question lies in the fact that the protective covers blew off the piles during a rain storm and were never replaced for the following weeks the dirt remained onsite before being removed. It goes back to my statement about making sure things are done right.

I am unsure what contaminates were in the soil, but it was removed for a reason, and they removed a lot of it. Why were the covers left off after they tore off?

Darrin Darrin
Nov '14

So much for the transparency Mr. Rice spoke about in the very beginning of this project. I don't believe anything they say.

pampurr pampurr
Nov '14

He would be a perfect addition to the Obama administration.

kb2755 kb2755
Nov '14

He is already running the town of Hackettstown, everything he wants he gets!

pampurr pampurr
Nov '14

IDK about that pampur, maybe before the public was involved so much, but since there has been more public concern it seems the board has tried to step up, and a lot of changes were made on public concerns. There are certain changes and requests that are within their reach, and certain things they just cannot make Ray do, after all, it is his property.

We will know better about this when or IF the second phase of the project goes through. We will be able to see how willing Rice is to work with the town and the 3 acres open space requirement. Initial plans that were given to the town were to include parking lot islands as open space, as well as other unusable property, but thankfully our town engineer put the kabosh on that, and since we have seen no other plan submissions (as far as I know, although I haven't talked to the town engineer in a while, and I actually have to return a phone call to him.

The key thing the town should be fighting for once phase two comes out is that the retention pond is not included in the open space requirement. Open space is to be usable, and a retention pond the size they will need is sure to take up 1/4 to 1/2 a acre if not more. Also in prior meetings it was discussed that the retention pond was not to be included in open space. The retention pond is not a necessity currently, although it will hopefully be a benefit. What makes it a requirement is due to the amount of impervious coverage the developers will be adding to a site which used to be a catching place for our towns runoff.

Now it just seems he is sick of the public getting in his way and he only answers what he has to, and only to certain people. But ask the right question, and a answer you shall not receive!

Darrin Darrin
Nov '14

RE: JANUARY 27, 2015 MEETING

The regular meeting of the Hackettstown Planning Board will be held Tuesday, January 27, 2015 at 7:30 PM in the Municipal Building, 215 Stiger Street, Hackettstown, New Jersey.

AGENDA

1. Sunshine Act
2. Swearing in of new & reappointed members
3. Roll Call
4. Pledge of Allegiance
5. Reorganization of the 2015 Planning Board
A. Chairman
B. Vice Chairman
C. Clerk/Secretary
D. Professionals
E. Official Newspaper
F. Meeting Dates
G. Financial Committee
H. Authorize Chairman to Sign Professional Contracts
6. Approval of minutes –December 9, 2014
7. Resolutions – None
8. Case #15-01, Fulton Financial Corp.
9. Case #13-01, First Hartford Realty Corp. Extension Request
10. Case #14-02, Jade Hackettstown Associates, LLC (completeness)
11. Case #14-03, Scott Peluso Extension Request
12. Old Business
13. New Business
14. Adjournment


Looks like CVS is asking for a extension

Darrin Darrin
Jan '15

CVS is on the February 24th planning board for a extension request

HACKETTSTOWN PLANNING BOARD
215 Stiger Street
Hackettstown, New Jersey 07840

TO: ALL MEMBERS OF THE HACKETTSTOWN PLANNING BOARD
RE: FEBRUARY 24, 2015 MEETING

The regularly scheduled meeting of the Hackettstown Planning Board will be held Tuesday, February 24, 2015 at 7:30 PM in the Municipal Building, 215 Stiger Street, Hackettstown, New Jersey.

AGENDA
1. Sunshine Act
2. Roll Call
3. Pledge of Allegiance
4. Approval of minutes –February 5, 2015
5. Resolutions – Case #13-01, First Hartford Realty Corp. Extension Request
6. Case #15-01, Fulton Financial Corp.
7. Old Business
8. New Business
9. Adjournment

Darrin Darrin
Feb '15

Just recieved a update from the property owner:

CVS acquired title to there section of Bergen Tool a week ago today. I'm happy and excited that they will finally commence construction. I also wanted you to be aware that weather permitting our demolition contractor will commence the demolition of the remaining buildings on-site. In speaking with CVS they are excited about this store and it's potential to have a positive impact on the town. We look forward to moving on the balance of the project. Paul asked me to provide updates which we will continue to do, however, as it relates to CVS that will be up to them.

Darrin2
Feb '15

OMGoodness; Darrin has been cloned.

Does that mean double the postings for Bergen Tool?

mistergoogle mistergoogle
Feb '15

Plus double postings of "bring on the friggin snow!" Noooooooooooooooooo!

John C John C
Feb '15

You can only post so much MG before the forum says "give someone else a turn", and I switched my name so that I could keep posting the latest updates from the property owner. People are not replying, and that is fine because I know many people who read this for the updates.

CVS was approved for extension with no comments or public time allotted last night. Nobody from CVS was there.

Darrin Darrin
Feb '15

WHAT no update? LOL but wait he is on another rant?

Christine Christine
Feb '15

So glad to hear this is moving forward and demolition will start at some point soon. Its such an eyesore currently. I for one will definitely give CVS business while continuing to give business to our local mom and pop pharmacies too.

mom of one mom of one
Feb '15

LMAO! Christine, you try way to hard to bash on me and you never cease to embarrass yourself while trying...what "rant" are you talking about?

Had you bothered to read what I posted you would of seen that the last line IS a update from last nights meeting, the rest is responding to MG and John.

Darrin Darrin
Feb '15

I can't believe he didn't mention 2 track hoes and shoring that are on site.

Philliesman Philliesman
Feb '15

Calm down Darrin it was a joke...GEEZE!!

I meant at the meeting last night not about your relationship with updates you receive. Your other rant I was joking about the Fulton project. Get a sense of humor will ya or don't you know what LOL means? Besides your post was not there when I posted. Probably because it was not ok'd yet by the moderators.

Christine Christine
Feb '15

Classic case of jumping the gun hu?

Darrin Darrin
Feb '15

Re: Bergen Tool- CVS approved

They showed up around 8 this morning and just fired up the two excavators, they will be taking down the remainder of the buildings. If I have time, I will try to get photos and post them as I am working from home today.

They seem to be up on the roof of the big brick building, shoveling off stuff out of a section of the building they knocked down

I am seeing many hard hats and saftey vests, which is a good thing

Darrin Darrin
Mar '15

That is all well and good. Any mention of asbestos removal while demolishing the buildings? At one point in time Rice said they were going to be covered while this was going on.

pampurr pampurr
Mar '15

From what I was told by the construction department, this week is pre-demolition. By next week a fence will be up and demolition will begin

Darrin Darrin
Mar '15

What construction department? Will they cover the buildings while they are being demolished? Might be a huge dust cloud of nasty asbestos particles and God knows what hanging over the houses near by.

pampurr pampurr
Mar '15

Our town construction department oversees the deconstruction. I cannot see them covering the who,e area with plastic before knocking it down. From the looks of things they are going in the building (which I must add they said was too unfit to save) and removing any potential asbestos first. If there is asbestos in in mortar we will probably see them hosing it down as they demolish the building.

The thing that has me wondering, but is obviously too late now, is that the owner claimed to roof was too far gone and unrepairable when they were trying to get the original save the building ordinance abolished, right? But this same roof has no issues supporting 10+ guys with no safety harnesses in case there is a collapse?

Darrin Darrin
Mar '15

..I saw the men up there the other day working and walking around as if there was nothing wrong with the roof..yes and NO safety harnesses in case of a roof collapse. Unbelievable.

pampurr pampurr
Mar '15

Re: Bergen Tool- CVS approved

I watched them for a while today, and I will be the first to say, this demolition crew seems to really be on the ball. I am seeing safety vests on just about everyone, and have witnessed a guy wearing a tyvek suit and respirator removing what I would think is asbestos.

They were plucking the roof off on one of the buildings today.

Darrin Darrin
Mar '15

Depends what kind of problems they found with the roofs. Didn't w couple of these have roof collapses last winter with the snow load? A couple of people isn't much compared to the snow load a flat roof faces...

Brendan Brendan
Mar '15

The is true Brendan, we had almost the same type of winter, a lot of snow and then a long rain storm, further weighing the roof down, and none of the remaining roofs collapsed as far as I could tell. Hey maybe that's what the property owner was waiting for? I mean, after all, last year it got almost half of the buildings down on site.....

But then again, the load of snow is more evenly distributed then a human foot print, more overall weight with snow would take the whole thing down, more of a chance to fall through a bad section on foot I think

Did find this, sort, but has pics

http://wrnjradio.com/community-news/2015/demolition-began-at-the-old-bergen-tool-property-in-hackettstown-today31915/

Darrin Darrin
Mar '15

Glad he had his safety gear on. One never knows what else is lurking in the dust.

pampurr pampurr
Mar '15

Re: Bergen Tool- CVS approved

Another picture update, it looks as if they are stripping out the brick building in preparation for it's now inevitable demise.

Darrin Darrin
Mar '15

Re: Bergen Tool- CVS approved

More deconstruction, they are knocking down the boiler building in the rear. I was surprised to not see them spraying it with water considering the amount of dust they were kicking up and how close to the homes they are.

Darrin Darrin
Mar '15

Those must be the very same bricks the Mayor and council talked about incorporating into the new design.

Denis Denis
Mar '15

Let the dust fly! Great picture Darrin! So much for the coverings when they take down those buildings.. What a line of BS they gave us at the meetings.

pampurr pampurr
Mar '15

Re: Bergen Tool- CVS approved

I was just really surprised to see them just rip those buildings down without stripping anything out like with the other buildings, especially after seeing how carefully they are taking down the front buildings. I don't understand. Those buildings were the old boiler buildings too, wonder how many pipes were wrapped in asbestos, unless they had already previously been stripped?

Looks like they are stripping the roof off the main building today (pic attached).

pampurr, I would like to know where the fence is. I asked the construction office and they sent a inspector, the inspector was told this was pre-demolition work, and that when they actually perform the demolition a fence would be put up....well obviously from my pictures yesterday this is not just pre demolition, they fully knocked down two buildings....so who is fibbing?

Darrin Darrin
Mar '15

Re: Bergen Tool- CVS approved

For some reason they are hosing down this section as they knock it down...

Darrin Darrin
Mar '15

I am sure Darrin someone is keeping a very close eye on your posts with pictures.

auntiel auntiel
Mar '15

Did you see the abatement plan?

pampurr pampurr
Mar '15

Was that the Master Abatement Plan?

ianimal ianimal
Mar '15

Re: Bergen Tool- CVS approved

auntiel, I know they are

Here is a pic update from today, they tore down the building they were hosing down this morning.

Darrin Darrin
Mar '15

Re: Bergen Tool- CVS approved

Another pic from this morning

Darrin Darrin
Mar '15

Darren, keeps the dust down when they knock it down...


From ourair.org

Dust created by removing rubble from the site may cause your neighbors to be exposed to asbestos. Wetting down the rubble before disposal will help to reduce this exposure.

Maybe they had removed asbestos.


I know why they do it, I wanted to know why they didn't do it to the building behind that one when they knocked it down. The dust was floating right through the Bergen road homes. All the front buildings they are taking apart piece by piece,slowly and to my knowledge correctly. But the building in the back you could only see from the end of east stiger or Bergen street they basically drove the excavator through in less then a day

Darrin Darrin
Apr '15

I walked by the site..your correct Darrin they did not hose that down and the dust cloud was over Bergen Road.

pampurr pampurr
Apr '15

Re: Bergen Tool- CVS approved

Picture from where they are at today, the building they were hosing 5 posts up has been removed

Darrin Darrin
Apr '15

I hope they will try to keep some of the bigger trees.

hktownie hktownie
Apr '15

hktownie that would be nice, but this is not a tree friendly town to say the least! There days are numbered I'm sure.

Denis Denis
Apr '15

The developers have asked opinion at the meetings in the past, but the only option they have given for keeping the trees is two small patches that will be fenced off because they say they cannot perform the environmental cleanup necessary on the area without removing the trees. None of this is set in stone yet, because the trees in the back of the property have to do with phase 2 plans, possibly phase 3 plans depending how they handle the remaining property. It is not too late to voice your concern at a town meeting pertaining to this property when they present the plans.

Darrin Darrin
Apr '15

Re: Bergen Tool- CVS approved

Denis, they may very well be saving some bricks. I saw a few guys today picking through the piles and palletizing some, picture attached.

Darrin Darrin
Apr '15

site looks better already. keep it up! it's about time this happened.

darwin darwin
Apr '15

Re: Bergen Tool- CVS approved

It certainly makes a difference when they knock the stuff down and truck it right out rather then leaving it on site for a year doesn't it Darwin?

I do agree that this construction company is doing a way better job then the last, with the exception that I am still wondering why they "drove through" a building in the rear, with no prep, no water spray. Yet everything they touch in the front is being fully prepped and sprayed down with water.

Current issue is going to be to get them to remove the slabs. I believe they want to leave the slabs in place and just cover them with fill, I do not feel this is proper site cleanup, nor should it satisfy the CVS cleanup requirement, and it certainly will not help the water runoff issue in the area.

Pic attached is photo update for today

Darrin Darrin
Apr '15

Get this, now everybody on the roof is wearing a safety harness, last week not one person was......interresting

Darrin Darrin
Apr '15

Was sitting at the light the other day and saw 4 people working on the roof. All wearing white protective suits with hoods and masks, all except one who had his hood down and no mask. Kinda makes one wonder what is blowing around town.

Mr. 4paws

4paws 4paws
Apr '15

4paws, I am assuming the roofing has asbestos in it. They have been scraping it up and throwing it down through holes they made in the roof. The other day a gust of wind came through and blew everything they were working on off the roof, don't know if they went and got it or not, but yeah, I would try to avoid walking in the area.

Darrin Darrin
Apr '15

Re: Bergen Tool- CVS approved

Some more photo updates, they have the roof and windows ripped out of the factory section, and they are beginning to tear it down.

Darrin Darrin
Apr '15

Re: Bergen Tool- CVS approved

Here is a really cool panorama shot I took, let me know if you want the original, it is much better quality, but HL seems to downsize the photo resolution

Darrin Darrin
Apr '15

Re: Bergen Tool- CVS approved

Here is another pic

Darrin Darrin
Apr '15

Old bricks are worth some money ! Are they going into the new design ?

janster janster
Apr '15

Re: Bergen Tool- CVS approved

Moving along

Darrin Darrin
Apr '15

Re: Bergen Tool- CVS approved

Pic 2

Darrin Darrin
Apr '15

Re: Bergen Tool- CVS approved

Another pic

Darrin Darrin
Apr '15

My beloved Uncle, when living, used to sit on his deck and every time a bug hit the bug zapper, he would say: "there goes another one."

Thanks Darrin for bringing back those memories.

mistergoogle mistergoogle
Apr '15

Re: Bergen Tool- CVS approved

They took down the Bergen machine and tool sign today and look what was hiding behind it all these years!

Darrin Darrin
Apr '15

Re: Bergen Tool- CVS approved

A picture of the current building state

Darrin Darrin
Apr '15

Re: Bergen Tool- CVS approved

The back is emptying out, also looks like a crusher is now onsite to "recycle" the old concrete and bricks

Darrin Darrin
Apr '15

There goes another one :>)

mistergoogle mistergoogle
Apr '15

Since the other thread got closed I will post this here, Even though the property own said they are keeping the signs, whoever posted that they saw pieces of the american saw mill sign busted up is correct, I just drove by the site and the original american sawmill sign is broken up into many pieces and is in a pile with the bricks, maybe by saving them he ment throwing them out and not allowing anyone to have them?

Darrin Darrin
Apr '15

who cares, it's his property he can do whatever he wants with the sign.

darwin darwin
Apr '15

Here we go again!

Teenie
Apr '15

Re: Bergen Tool- CVS approved

Well at least we know where you stand with our towns history darwin....."who cares". It amazes me that you are "so active" in this town, yet can post something like that

It is his property to do whatever he wants, but something like that should of been preserved

Pic attached

Darrin Darrin
Apr '15

I think the Bergen Tool site ship of history sailed long ago as our town politco's said bon voyage. In fairness though, wasn't like suitors were banging on the door.

But I am always amazed in life at how the easy, simple, classy things are oft overlooked. In the case of this sign, why didn't the owner offer it to the town or for sale? Was the salvage price of cement really worth the continuing bad image of a quick fix robber baron used car salesman this development company actually works on to perfect? Or was it just more efficient to destroy than preserve.

But why say "we're keeping it" when you mean we're destroying it? What comes next "nah, nah........"

Personally I think you are correct Darwin, it's their sign and not a historical site so they can do what they like. That does not make it right nor classy that the owner skipped the easy, simple stuff just because they could. And then to destroy it and stick it in Darrin's face, well, that's just some low class.

mistergoogle mistergoogle
Apr '15

Yes I am active in the town, I also live in the present and I'm concerned with the future.

Having a giant concrete sign preserved is kind of pointless. What is the town suppose to do with it?
As someone mentioned, the Historic Society doesn’t have the resources handle the sign even if it was gifted to them.

darwin darwin
Apr '15

here Darrin here is a nice site you can go to:

http://vintagemachinery.org/mfgindex/detail.aspx?id=36

darwin darwin
Apr '15

OMG sign broken. Who said they was keeping the old sign? The developer "Rice" Darrin?

Darwin, how do you know the Historical Society does not have the funds? Are you their bookkeeper? What a shame it was destroyed..and of course your attitude is I don't care? SMH

pampurr pampurr
Apr '15

Re: Bergen Tool- CVS approved

Darwin, The offer would of gone miles, not a "were keeping it" and then to see it in a pile of rubble smashed.

Yes ray rice said that they were keeping it

Darrin Darrin
Apr '15

MG, your post just popped up, yes bergen tool was not CLASSIFIED as a "historical building", but it was part of our town's history for many years, once it is gone, it is gone.

Okay, so if the historical society doesn't have the means to hold onto the sign, someone else could of for them. I have a spot behind my garage and would of been willing to store the sign for the town. But it was not offered.

Also there is no value in concrete scrap, you actually have to pay to get rid of it. That is why there is a big rock crusher sitting in the front of the property. They are going to crush up (as the developer said "recycle") all the scrap concrete and bricks and spread them out on the site so they do not have to pay to get rid of it and get it off the site.

Personally I have no attachment to the sign, but I do know that our town may of had an attachment to the sign.

Darrin Darrin
Apr '15

Darrin, from what you posted before, I got the impression that no one knew there was an "American Saw Mill Machinery Company" sign hiding behind the "Bergen Machine and Tool" sign.

If that's the case, how could anyone have promised to keep something that they didn't know existed?

ianimal ianimal
Apr '15

pam it was mentioned on the other thread that they didn't have the resourses to take the sign.

So for those who think the sign should have been preserved, what would you want the town to do with it? Where would a giant 8" think concrete sign go? And I'm sure you would have no issue if the town spent $ on the sign, to either buy it or move it, right? Because the 2 of you are never seen complaining about government wasting money, right?

I wish they would have kept the actual building, to me that would have been a great piece of history to preserve, sorry i don't feel the same for a giant concrete sign. Please don't hurt your neck with all that shaking. :)

darwin darwin
Apr '15

Darrin how do you know they didn't attempt to dismantle the sign? You've assumed the worst. It appears you spoke with the developer why don't you find out what happen.

hackettstown townie hackettstown townie
Apr '15

@Ian, the sign was (to me) found when the removed the bergen tool metal sign, I am sure others may of knew it was there, but idk. Luckily I got pictures when I did, because they headed right for the sign the next day, something could of been done when they uncovered the sign, much like I did, I immediately emailed the property owner as soon as I saw it to ask what would be done with it, but when he said they are keeping it and he had nothing more to add, I figured they would be preserving it, which is fine, it is theirs, I didn't think "keeping it" was crumbling it into a bunch of pieces.

I agree about the building darwin, that could of very easily been gutted and converted to a office building, but that idea was stomped a long time ago, now we are at the point of saving what we can. The sign, even if the town didn't keep it, could of been incorporated in the memorial "bricks" that we were promised from the developer that is to have a plaque about being the former site of american sawmill.

@ht, The developer clearly said he had nothing more to add, seemed like a dead subject to him, if you want to press the case, I can give you his contact info. Although a very good point, i would think that if the sign was broken in a few places this could be true, but it is literally in 50 pieces like there was no attempt made, maybe they broke it once and just said the heck with saving it....idk

Darrin Darrin
Apr '15

again you are saying what the developer should have done with the sign. But what exactly should the TOWN have done with it.

darwin darwin
Apr '15

I didn't make that claim. It was posted on the other thread by a reputable poster. But considering the museum is a small home yea I’ll go out on a limb and say they didn't have room for it. :)

"something could of been done when they uncovered the sign, much like I did, I immediately emailed the property owner as soon as I saw it to ask what would be done with it"

so right back at you, since you say the town did nothing when the sign was visable i assume you spoke to the town about this, right?

you offered your lot to the town to store the sign, right?

darwin darwin
Apr '15

As I said before darwin, Okay, so if the historical society doesn't have the means to hold onto the sign, someone else could of for them. I have a spot behind my garage and would of been willing to store the sign for the town. But it was not offered.

The town could of held onto the sign until the park that we are promised opens and incorporated it there. Heck phase 2 plans have not even came out, the town could of held onto it and asked that it be somehow incorporated in phase 2 buildings. It is obvious, from what you said, that the historical society does not have the room to display the sign in their museum and had no interest in it, since you made this claim on the behalf, I am assuming you spoke to them about this?

Darrin Darrin
Apr '15

It appears our messages got switched in order.....but to answer yours

I may not of seen the other post, as it seems to have disappeared, I presume because of people who want to talk about personal issues rather then the topic at hand

darwin, you are trying to turn this around when this is not what I am saying at all. You are trying to pursue this to try to make me look wrong, I get it, but the point is, upon seeing the sign, I asked the property owner about it directly, he said they were keeping both signs, so I forwarded this info on by posting it on this forum as well as forwarding the email to the Mayor....... what would you do from there that I didn't do since now apparently I am at fault?

"since you say the town did nothing when the sign was visible" where did I say this?

Unless of course you are changing what I said in answering ian's question of "If that's the case, how could anyone have promised to keep something that they didn't know existed?" In which case I never said the town, i said "something could of been done when they uncovered the sign" never said the town.....

I did not expect the town to pursue the sign, especially after I forwarded the email from the property owner claiming they wanted to keep the sign to our Mayor, so there is much more going on then you think you know.

Darrin Darrin
Apr '15

I love all the assumptions made for the HHS by non-members of the society. After talking to the president of the society, nothing was said or offered to the society in this matter. Would room have been made for this sign, maybe not at the present town museum but maybe in the future. Storage would have been available.

John C John C
Apr '15

+1000 John C thanks for looking into this, my point exactly, but apparently Darwin's reputable source.......

I immediately inquired about the sign as I would of been willing to store it for the society, but when I was answered that the property owner would be keeping them I did not push the topic any further, as it was their sign to keep.

Darrin Darrin
Apr '15

too bad the other thread got deleted Darrin.

darwin darwin
Apr '15

Yes very true darwin, it was not coming from you, but it was also not a confirmed source as we can see from John's post.

Darrin Darrin
Apr '15

Wasn't the old blacksmith shop on the property the first to be demolished?

pampurr pampurr
Apr '15

I saw it on the other thread. It was said and we do not know if they confirmed or not.

All this does not matter anyway as the property owner has the right to do what he wants with the sign. Its his option to break it up and throw it away.

I would rather see the building there also.

Teenie
Apr '15

Wouldn't surprise me one bit that the property owner would rather see the sign thrown out then donated to the town.

prefernotosay
Apr '15

Oh my, so many angels.

On the sign, sure the owner was in his rights. But sure would have been a class act to try to preserve the sign especially after all the hoopla unless it broke up on it's own accord, you know fragile after standing all those years.... So judge ye on the actions.

On the site, I have no doubt the building could have been saved. Give me a break that a bad roof means you have to bring down the whole brick building.

It was not a historic site. It obviously did not sell itself due to the building and our town not being able to support a multitude of buyers for prime center city retail space. Whether our politico's and volunteers like the HHS did enough to either gain historic preservation or find a creative buyer, I don't know, but they would have had to jump through some hoops to do so based on the lack of interest.

That said, we have another one that will probably go the way of Bergen Tool and that is our portion of the Morris Canal. Too bad we can't start buying it up for park land and a walking trail. I will open a thread if there isn't one.

mistergoogle mistergoogle
Apr '15

idk mg, how fragile can 8" thick (according to Darwin) concrete be? (i think it is more like 4 inch think) but still....

Darrin Darrin
Apr '15

Went in the rain today to look at it. Not all the bricks are there. They are definitely damaged.

Teenie
Apr '15

A bit tongue in cheek but it could have been damaged if they couldn't lift it off the building and dropped it instead. Salvage value might be the value of fill that they might use it for.

Point is that the developer seems to have shown a lack of class in not trying to save any memento's from the site. It is their right to be uncool. Just as it is our right to continue to keep picking at them. Keep going Darrin.

mistergoogle mistergoogle
Apr '15

Darrin and mistergoogle you to should have bought the property and spent all the millions of dollars it would have required to rehab the property and just sit empty. It amazing how the two of you assume all these obligations on a private property owner, this isn't public property. I've still haven't seen anything that didn't indicate attempts were made to save the sign. In fact I passed the site and two men were in a lift in front of the building working on the sign. If the intention was to disregard the sign why bother with a lift and handsaws, it certainly would have been less expensive just to drop the material. Who knows what the condition was good or bad. It is logical to assume that the developer would have made a attempt to preserve the sign versus intentionally destroy it as is the assumption.

Stick to the facts of what you know and not what you don't know and not hypothetical assumptions.

hackettstown townie hackettstown townie
Apr '15

I think I was pretty careful with the probably's, seems to have[s, and maybe's and think your accusations are unfounded HT.

Frankly as benevolent and you seem to feel this developer is, I dare you to come up with any good references for this developer though. Easy to find not so good.

Heck, I dare you to find out where the development dollars are even coming from besides a exotic holding company name without a record and some used car salesmen front men.

mistergoogle mistergoogle
Apr '15

Mistergoogle why all the bitterness? I don't understand the reference to exotic holding company without a record what does that mean. There obviously, is a deed for the property with a name on it, correct.

"Point is that the developer seems to have shown a lack of class in not trying to save any memento's from the site." Your comments. How do you know what been saved and not saved? Stick to the facts versus bitterness and you'll be better served as we all are.

hackettstown townie hackettstown townie
Apr '15

Bye bye sign...to the dumpster.


I am sticking to the facts ht...i said the sign is on the ground in broken pieces.....that is a fact right?, and if you would of read all the posts i also said that i suppose he could of attempted to save the sign and when it broke he said the heck with it....but you seem too busy trying to make people look bad to notice i presume? Keep being amazed, but i think you should try reading the rest of the posts before jumping to your own conclusions.

To add, they are using the lift to deconstruct the building where they cannot simply do so with the excavator because of closeness to the street, they have been doing it for a week. The lift was not to just get to the sign as u claim.

I was very diverse when i posted possibilities of what happened to the sign. I love when people say "well then why didn't you just buy the property" such a waste of breath and character.... yup everyone has a cool million just sitting around to do that with....good one.

Darrin Darrin
Apr '15

This whole deal about the sign is ridiculous. Just what do you propose to do with eight pieces of granite? Spread them around the gazebo? Of what historic significance is American Sawmill... ??? I just don't get the hullabaloo.


At the risk of escalating the pettiness, I think you need to understand the definition of bitterness such as "anger and disappointment at being treated unfairly; resentment." I think it will be pretty obvious when I am bitter.

And yes, you are right that I said: "the developer seems to have shown a lack of class" with the operative word being "seems" meaning "to give the impression or sensation of being something or having a particular quality."

I believe I was tempered in my opinion whereas you on the other hand SEEM to be unduly aggravated.

mistergoogle mistergoogle
Apr '15

At the risk of escalating the pettiness, I think you need to understand the definition of bitterness such as "anger and disappointment at being treated unfairly; resentment." I think it will be pretty obvious when I am bitter.

And yes, you are right that I said: "the developer seems to have shown a lack of class" with the operative word being "seems" meaning "to give the impression or sensation of being something or having a particular quality."

I believe I was tempered in my opinion whereas you on the other hand SEEM to be unduly aggravated.

Sell the sign? Who could ever make a buck selling a memento from a company like this: http://www.ebay.com/itm/AMERICAN-SAWMILL-MACHINERY-CO-Hackettstown-NJ-No1-CAST-IRON-SIGN-/320959407597

Some history: http://vintagemachinery.org/mfgindex/detail.aspx?id=36

mistergoogle mistergoogle
Apr '15

"I love when people say "well then why didn't you just buy the property" such a waste of breath and character.... yup everyone has a cool million just sitting around to do that with....good one."

yet some have no problem telling the person who does have the cool million sitting around how they should spend their money..... good one :)

darwin darwin
Apr '15

Absolutely correct Darwin, after all they are building in our town....what do you think they do at the planning board meetings?

And on top of that I never never said they should of done.....you asked what I would of liked to seen happen with the sign and I answered.....initial post was just that the property owner said they were keeping the signs and then the sign was found trashed, so your post is a little far fetched.

Darrin Darrin
Apr '15

"And on top of that I never never said they should of done.....you asked what I would of liked to seen happen with the sign and I answered.....initial post was just that the property owner said they were keeping the signs and then the sign was found trashed, so your post is a little far fetched." Darrin you've implied all types of things; how the site should be developed, what should be saved, what the developer did, how the sign was trashed, and on and on and on.

Why don't you look at the other side and think how you would feel if someone was asking you to do all types of things and meet all types of conditions if you were to do something with your home. Maybe once the Bergen site is developed your home will be incompatiable with what was developed? How would you feel then if you had to meet a standard going forward?

hackettstown townie hackettstown townie
Apr '15

"Darrin you've implied all types of things; how the site should be developed, what should be saved, what the developer did, how the sign was trashed, and on and on and on."

So now were digging deeper? I thought we were just talking about the sign?

"Why don't you look at the other side and think how you would feel if someone was asking you to do all types of things and meet all types of conditions if you were to do something with your home"

HT, you seem to of misinterpreted the use of this forum. I am not sending these messages to the property owner, I am on here, as a resident, discussing ideas with other residents, as well as sharing information pertaining to the site that is provided to me....this is the whole reason of a forum in the first place.

Secondly, THIS DOES HAPPEN!!!! Have you ever got a permit to do something to your home.....well yeah, it is exactly what you just described!

Darrin Darrin
Apr '15

I just realized "hackettstown townie" is new to this forum and has never posted to any other thread, hmmm............

On the forum I am free to express opinions as long as I present them as such. When I present facts, I as well present them as such. There is noting wrong with talking about it, as well as talking about possible options, it is very enlightening for when I attend town meetings.

Darrin Darrin
Apr '15

Darrin stay on substance versus speculation. You bring up a valid point on the permit and yes I did have this situation when I put a deck on my home. However, I never told my neighbor what color to paint his home either, it's private property. I am new to the forum and I find it entertaining to see also the endless speculation on supposedly what is the intentions of the property owner. It's pretty clear the building is coming down because it visual. Other than that I have no idea what happens with the rest of the property with exception of a CVS on the corner per other posts.

You seem to have some way to contact the developer why not just ask rather than speculate all the time?

hackettstown townie hackettstown townie
Apr '15

Again, you are confusing me apparently "telling the property owner" as opposed to openly discussing ideas with other residents on a forum (which has no affect on the property owner)

You also seem to be misinformed on what is speculation and what is fact, if it is a topic you are interested in, you should go to some town meetings, or stop by the construction office, because plans that the developer has submitted are on file there and can be seen by public (both CVS and phase 2 and 3 of the whole property) if you just ask to see them. That is where I get my info from, along with talks with the town engineer, property owner, construction office....I don't just pull stuff out of my butt if that is what you think.

I also usually do contact the property owner with questions. I am very confused, either you read the beginning of the forum, or something, because since I have received the property owner's contact info, most of the info I post is either current status of the property or information about town meetings or information I received from the property owner. You shouldn't ridicule me for things said 2 years ago before I had these contacts available, stuff like that takes time.

Darrin Darrin
Apr '15

Darrin okay I acknowledge your points and will get myself better educated. However, in the little I've read already most of the posts seem negative in regards to the property and it's development. I say good riddance and anything is better than the eyesore that the property has been for so many years.

I will keep my comments fact based and not speculate. How do you get hold of the property owner?

hackettstown townie hackettstown townie
Apr '15

There is many things that are currently "speculation" but they are speculation due to concern, for instance, the number of apartments that they are looking to put on the property for phase 2 development, that is something for us to be concerned with, especially with new low income housing requirements rolling out in June I believe. But that topic is better suited for the other thread (bergen tool phase 2 ( http://www.hackettstownlife.com/forum/568705 )). Many topics such as that and water runoff issues with the site are what is being discussed. We have every right to "speculate" on how and what improvements the developer chooses to make will affect what already exists in our town, by doing this, we have ideas ready to bring forth during town meetings.

If you have any questions you can always contact me through the forum or PM me.

Also to answer your question, he contacted to me, and I asked to meet him, and when we met he gave me his contact info.

Darrin Darrin
Apr '15

What's the concern with low income housing?

What ideas are you bringing forward?

Who are the residents that are so concerned? (yes have read the thread and not many are on here) Seems you are talking to mostly pampur and not the rest who are happy to see Bergen Tool gone.

Please don't come back with anything but answers. These are valid questions IMO.

Teenie
Apr '15

Tennie, these issues have been discussed in multitude, but it is currently hard to say because we do not know what the developer wants to do. These questions are better suited for phase 2 thread since that's where this stuff may come up.

Many many people read this thread but do not reply, totally fine, the idea is getting the info out there.

This topic is years and years old, discussing something like this in one post is not a possibility. If you read up on old posts you will find what you are looking for. I don't even know if it is possible to read all the posts, but hey if you did kudos to you! the last bergen tool thread was over 1300 posts.

Darrin Darrin
Apr '15

I will though speak of current issues, One current issue is the developer is trying to get away with leaving the slabs to the buildings in place. I spoke with our town engineer on the topic, and he is certainly on top of it. This would not meet what the planning board agreed on in the resolutions. And will majorly hinder runoff especially when the cvs tract is built.

Darrin Darrin
Apr '15

I have read all the topics. It wasn't easy though. Anyway you mentioned above about the low income housing and your ideas which I did not see on other threads. I saw the issues of water drain off (terrible problem) so not sure what exactly your ideas are other then above and the problem with low income housing.

Thanks for the above answers anyway.

Teenie
Apr '15

"Seems you are talking to mostly pampur and not the rest who are happy to see Bergen Tool gone."

LMAO Teenie!


Darrin thanks for information!

pampurr pampurr
Apr '15

My observation pampurr.

Teenie
Apr '15

"What's the concern with low income housing?"

Really???? Perhaps just google it?

http://www.nhi.org/online/issues/77/pubhsg.html

http://www.google.com/url?sa=t&rct=j&q=&esrc=s&source=web&cd=1&ved=0CCIQFjAA&url= http%3A%2F%2Fsocrates.berkeley.edu%2F~raphael%2FIGERT%2FWorkshop%2FMatt%2520Friedman%2520-%2520Fall%25202010.pdf&ei=6No3VY_DAoixggS1vYGgDQ&usg=AFQjCNGmTPo43RFi1oihpBuvuVy629PHVQ&bvm=bv.91071109,d.eXY

mistergoogle mistergoogle
Apr '15

Pampurr seems to be a very bitter person in regards to this property. Not sure what he issue is. I did start to read the posts and apparently she lives in proximity to the site based on the posts she's made your commented on. Perhaps there was a vision of another use, however, it is private property and it certainly looks like it will be developed. Pampurr you may want to recognize this and look for the better outcome.

Darrin I also have taken the time to see that you have put much information on this property on this site. However, it does seem as Teenie pointed out very few respond or even follow this subject. I am planning on stopping into the town and getting better educated on the subject as you are.

hackettstown townie hackettstown townie
Apr '15

Earlier posts did ht, but currently have just been posting updates.

As far as low income not much has been said about it because the owner originally said he would pay the fee to no have to include low income housing. But now knowing (it was brought up at the last planning board meeting) that low income housing laws are changing, i am not sure if this will affect the housing component of the site. Initial is 99 apartments which i personally feel is way too much for the area, but apartments in general have been discussed in the past.

Just because few respond does not mean few follow, as i said i talk to people all over town who follow it even out of towners who follow it for updates

Darrin Darrin
Apr '15

Hackettstown Townie...Did you go to any of the planning board meetings?

pampurr pampurr
Apr '15

Hey Pampurr, come on over and party.

For appetizers, we're having Karela melon ice followed by a green salad with some fresh grated horseradish, rapini, dandelion, escarole, radicchio, and endive with a olive oil and vinegar dressing followed by Sauerbraten with Kimchee, San Fran's finest sourdough, toasted by Singapore Slings and Pisco Sours.

It's a bitter party!!!!

mistergoogle mistergoogle
Apr '15

MG- LMAO!!!


I am sure many of the houses that had the woods and ball field in their back yard are not excited to see the site developed, they will now be looking at parking lots, depending on how the town asks for the park to be done. This is especially true for the residents of bergen street. Initial plans practically has these houses which were once woods behind, now surrounded by pavement. That will be sure to affect a home's value.

The people, such as me, who were looking at dilapidated buildings, are very happy to see the buildings getting cleaned up, I just want the job done right. The town was very smart to make the property owner do a full site cleanup while withholding CVS the right to get a C.O untill full cleanup, we may not of seen the site cleaned up so fast without this, but trying to skip out and leave the foundations is not doing the job right. CVS will make this area look much better for sure, but I am not looking forward to the added traffic of what has been initially proposed for phase 2 though, especially not on what used to be a residential road. But who knows what phase 2 will bring, we only know what the owner is looking to do.

And HT, you cannot force someone to accept change with open hands, not everyone is like that. I am not sure of pampurr's particulars.

MG had me excited, i thought we were going to have a party :-(

Darrin Darrin
Apr '15

Mistergoogle I make a mean Pisco sour and been to the country where they originated more times than you can count. MP (see if you can figure this out, Yo soy peinsolo no es possible es porque en e media)

hackettstown townie hackettstown townie
Apr '15

Thanks Mr. Google but I have to decline the offer!

pampurr pampurr
Apr '15

You all know that low income housing is a law right? Its called COAH. Another wonderful thing NJ requires on builders. (insert sarcastic tone here) The builder has to follow the COAH regulations. All the housing in Hackettstown has some currently and it never has posed a problem in this area. I suspect it won't this time either.

Teenie
Apr '15

Now I am truly bitter :>)

mistergoogle mistergoogle
Apr '15

I'll come over Mr G. I have no problem's with bitter-free zones. ;-)


Teenie...are you aware that COAH requirements are changing in June?

Darrin Darrin
Apr '15

Re: Bergen Tool- CVS approved

Building update for today, the only remaining building is the brick building, but I am sure its' days are coming to a end. There is also one building that remains in the rear of the site, not sure why that is still there.

Darrin Darrin
Apr '15

The low income housing on the site will turn into the projects. After all, we're getting a Salvation Army. :)

neighborhood watcher
Apr '15

Re: Bergen Tool- CVS approved

Bye bye big brick building

Darrin Darrin
Apr '15

Finally!! This is great! CVS will be up and running in 6months! Now on to Phase 2 & 3.

darwin darwin
Apr '15

Finally, a few more days and this eyesore is gone. What a huge benefit finally having a store like CVS on this side of town versus Mansfield.

hackettstown townie hackettstown townie
Apr '15

Re: Bergen Tool- CVS approved

"Finally!! This is great! CVS will be up and running in 6months! Now on to Phase 2 & 3."

LMAO, I will believe that when I see it. They still have not been able to agree if the foundations are coming out or not.

Here is a better picture. Other pic was from my security cams. (I have been recording the whole deconstruction process and hope to make a time lapse video but currently do not know how)

Darrin Darrin
Apr '15

Did they save the sign that read "Office?"

mistergoogle mistergoogle
Apr '15

They have not ripped down the front yet

Darrin Darrin
Apr '15

Say buh buy to Skylands Pharmacy. That's progress~

pampurr pampurr
Apr '15

Those that use Skylands as their pharmacy will still use them because they go to Skylands for their great customer service and knowledgable staff. But those use us that have tried to run into Skylands for 1 or 2 quick items only to find no selection, empty shelves and at times expired medicine, will now go to CVS.

So yea getting something better as a consumer is called progress.

Darwin Darwin
Apr '15

And there's still a pizza joint within walking distance so I can grab a slice when I get da drugs. A hallmark CVS advantage over those big blue boxes.

mistergoogle mistergoogle
Apr '15

Skylands Pharmacy is the best. CVS has made many mistakes with my prescriptions. I stopped going to them when Skylands opened and I am not looking back. Their staff is wonderful. Besides I think Quik Chek will have more of a problem then Skylands. CVS has deals on many grocery items and they take coupons and also have cash back incentives. I bought Cheerios the other day and paid $1.24 a box. Milk is a bit cheaper there also. The only thing is I am not sure if they are open 24 hrs.

Teenie Teenie
Apr '15

Be on the lookout for the 24 hours thing. They told the planning board no, but i can see that trying to change. I hope they wouldn't allow it to change because they are in a residential area and their lights will flood the area.

Darrin Darrin
Apr '15

Darrin you have security camera's, why? If anything the redevelopment of the Bergen site will make your neighborhood better no old builds to hide in, right?

hackettstown townie hackettstown townie
Apr '15

Skylands is the best, been going there for years..won't go to CVS for their cheap Chinese junk...

And BTW... If you leave Darwin that will be progress for me and my husband. LMAO!

pampurr pampurr
Apr '15

How old are you?

Darwin Darwin
Apr '15

Who really, really, truly thinks we need a junky pharmacy store in an area already served by one pharmacy and one convenience store in the same block? Do you really need that much OTC medicine right now, or cheap Halloween decorations that can't be found within a ten minute radius? Dollar General will be open nearby soon, can you wait?
Just unfortunate that a forward thinking population which appears to largely object to this choice of business will have to deal with it. There is a reason more prosperous towns appear to have a better selection of businesses. Not every consumer needs to be catered to by businesses that may negatively impact the character of a town.

kepa
Apr '15

None of your business.

pampurr pampurr
Apr '15

Obviously 12!

Teenie Teenie
Apr '15

And obviously Teenie must be one of the section 8 crowd..and he is going to tell us all about COAH..LMAO...

pampurr pampurr
Apr '15

Now wait a second pampurr, Teenie does not need COAH, just likes to live next door to it.

mistergoogle mistergoogle
Apr '15

Skylands could relocate up 517 a bit..maybe to the mall by the quick chek?

Brad2
Apr '15

Now now guys, lets not get at each other. We are here to help each other and the more people we have whether we agree with them or not is more ideas in the pot.

The honest truth about COAH is that nobody knows the new regulations that are going to roll out in June. Initial talk was almost doubling the requirements for our town. We will have to wait and see what becomes of it.

Darrin Darrin
Apr '15

The COAH laws do tend to bounce around a bit and currently the flux is at an all time high in NJ as Christie and the Supremes duke it out.

Don't get me wrong, I am all for COAH in concept, but let's face it, our houses are our largest investment, lately the return has been nil. We live in our neighborhoods and towns and, sorry, I also have a huge NIMBY going on here as well. I imagine that not too many of us want a low income development in our backyards... not that there's anything wrong with it. And if higher density development becomes the Hackettstown norm, let's face it, the shape of our neighborhoods and main street will change to suit that as well.

Planners need to be careful with the development mix and it seems that higher density is becoming the norm for Hackettstown and it's close surround.

In many places there are township and builder alternatives to every single development including COAH; some of these are from the NJ experience as well.

There's diverted funding at a municipal level where basically a developer can buy off the planning board who uses the funds wherever and makes sure the associated COAH units are built somewhere else in the municipality. The right number of COAH units are built but not necessarily as a portion of each development.

There's state funding pools where developers can pitch in to the pool to avoid COAH and the state allocates the funds to build COAH elsewhere. Again, the right number of COAH units are built but the state helps determine where the pooled funding will be used to do so.

And then, one of my favorites, is where the developer builds his non-COAH units but rents a prescribed number at COAH levels for a predetermined long period of time.

All of these require management and oversight but are ways the both COAH and non COAH can better co-exist in my book.

mistergoogle mistergoogle
Apr '15

When was the initial talk about doubling the COAH requirements? How many years ago was that?

pampurr pampurr
Apr '15

It was brought up at last month's planning board meeting at a heads up.

Darrin Darrin
Apr '15

What's a heads up? Does that mean the Planning Board has an okay on this already? Has this been decided before they table the discussion at the public meetings?

pampurr pampurr
Apr '15

http://www.highlands.state.nj.us/njhighlands/warren_county/hackettstown/3_Hackettstown_Adopted_Housing_Element_and_Fair_Share_Plan.pdf

pampurr pampurr
Apr '15

Pampurr: the COAH rules are in flux and chances are this report, dated 2010, might be changed for the new regulations.

mistergoogle mistergoogle
Apr '15

Pampurr, REALLY? So what if I was part of Section 8? Doesn't mean I am a criminal or bad.

MG, You do you realize we have a lot of COAH already in this town? I already live by some and have no problems with them and never have.

Teenie Teenie
Apr '15

Yup, keep putting in more and more Apartments including the low income and see what it does to your taxes. Homes are bad enough but apartments really put a strain on the tax base. One would think Hackettstown already has enough Apartments. What Hackettstown needs more of is Businesses and Industry that pay taxes but not add children to the School System.
I still say the Bergen site would have been better served as a light industry or a transit Village with small stores/shops in the lower section in the front building.

Mr. 4paws

4paws 4paws
Apr '15

Transit system does not seem fit since the train does not run much. Getting NJ Transit to add more is a null point. I have written numerous letters with no response. The town also has asked. The town does have a lot of apartments BUT when a study was done thru the HBID it showed people are interested in apartment/condo living. Light industry is leaving NJ. The costs are too high.

I would have loved to see a park and town center. BUT that investigation proved VERY expensive. We could dream though.

Teenie Teenie
Apr '15

Train to nowhere 1:45 minutes to Manhattan that doesn't translate to transit development. Also the ordinance for Bergen is on line and they have the right to buy out of the COAH if they want. Also despite Pampurr's bitterness COAH isn't Section 8 housing. I looked up Section 8 housing and those living in this housing get a subsidy from the government. According to the Department of Community Affairs site for NJ COAH is either for sale, rental housing that people just pay a reduced price or rent rate for. From what I can gather on Section 8 housing it seems to be for people who are government dependent. Big difference. Pampurr stick to the facts versus wild speculation. 5% of fact doesn't equal 100% of the truth.

hackettstown townie hackettstown townie
Apr '15

How is your property values like? Gone through the roof, huh.

pampurr pampurr
Apr '15

"I still say the Bergen site would have been better served as a light industry or a transit Village with small stores/shops in the lower section in the front building."

Mr. 4paws, unfortunately the town residents that feel the way you do lost that battle when the zone was changed from Light Manufacturing to a Mixed Zone that it is today.

THE MORP
Apr '15

The good news is that only a CVS is approved for the front corner of the property currently, there is still time for residents to voice any concerns they may have with the rest of the property, formal plans have not been presented yet, although what they were trying to make formal is available for review at the construction office at town hall.

What I am concerned about is rules changing, the town needing more low-income, right as plans for 100 apartments comes out. Then we may have more low income housing at this one site then we bargained for. I have no problem with low-income housing here and there, but when you group it all in one spot you get what MG nicely said.

The planning board never said they were okay with this new COAH, although they wont have much of a choice,l rules are rules.....they were doing the right thing and giving everyone a heads up that this will be happening. I would think this will be further discussed in one of the next to come planning board meetings.

I have no problem with stores, I am against apartments, main street cannot support the traffic it already has let alone if we add 100 apartment more of residents to it.

Plus apartments were approved on bilby street over two years ago and they are still yet to be seen, are we sure we want to add this much load to our town? better yet, are we sure our town can handle it, such as schools etc?

Darrin Darrin
Apr '15

Wow, that's a really good discussion, nicely done folks.

First, I am happy Teenie's experience has been a good one. But face it, income levels aside, more density generally means more problems. Especially if we just keep dumping new residences in without making corresponding infrastructure improvements. You know, we can just suck it up and take in all those tax dollars.

Note that I am not against COAH or even high density, but it takes careful planning to develop a good mix, and as Darrin indicated, seems H-town seems to lean towards higher density consisting lower to moderate income housing in the majority of cases.

Darrin, I am not sure there are COAH rules right now, seems to be up in the air until the dust settles. Also, I think the developer already forked over some cash to avoid some of the low income, but like you said ---- even if true, all things beyond Phase I are still not rock solid plans, even the 99 units might change, and given the trends I doubt downward. Point is 100 new apartments in this area would indeed make it more mixed but also is a huge impact on the surrounding residential communities.

And extra ratable's does not always mean additional revenue. It depends on the break points for major infrastructure additions to cover the increased population. While residential development ratables are a linear function, infrastructure enhancements are a step function. Like one too many forcing a new school, new water plant, extra police, etc. etc. can add up. Again, careful planning but our expense will skyrocket if infrastructure breakpoints are breached.

Lastly, there is a general tendency for clustering. Not only in H-town itself but surrounding communities are more likely to plan their higher density units near other similar projects which H-town can become a magnet for. Already H-town is ringed by higher density from Independence, Mansfield, Long Valley. All of Mansfield's R-3 zoning is on it's H-town border. Likewise for Independence. Washington town ship is a mixed bag, but the new townhouse development being planned lends a hint.

So as we develop this higher density apartment complex bordering our nice single-family residential, we should be careful to be adding value to our community rather than lowering or inviting further high density from our close neighbors of which I am one.

Lastly, thank you Teenie for fighting the good fight for the train. Tell us who to write. On this note, hate to say it, but the apartments will probably help that cause :>(

mistergoogle mistergoogle
Apr '15

My husband and I went through this with Keith awhile ago about the COAH apartments at the Planning Board Meetings. The metrics have changed drastically now and looks to me like they want to double the amount of COAH in Hackettstown.

YIKES. Talk about Traffic Congestion and overcrowding of schools.

Mayor Hines and Nancy Brown said exactly what you said awhile back Morp..a Quincy Market of sorts, small shops/stores in the lower section in the front building..

pampurr pampurr
Apr '15

Some pictures and a video.

http://wrnjradio.com/wrnj-news-department/2015/demolition-is-almost-complete-of-the-old-bergen-tool-property42715/

ooonoo ooonoo
Apr '15

A CVS is Baltimore is getting looted live on TV right now, I think I saw Darrin in the crowd. :)

Darwin Darwin
Apr '15

Disgusting animals.

Denis Denis
Apr '15

ummm, no Darwin, I am not a thief....

Secondly, the demolition is not "complete" until they take the slabs out.....they haven't touched one.

Darrin Darrin
Apr '15

Glad to see all the good "Christian " folks of Hackettstown are all here to show the rest of the town how truly hateful and horrible you are. Low income housing helps a lot of people get on their feet. I am not in such a situation but it's good to know how my fellow "neighbors " would look down upon me if by chance I did need it. It's all about the almighty $$$. Karma is a b*tch! Nothing would be better than all of you experiencing a life changing event and falling off of your soap boxes!

wondering wondering
Apr '15

Darrin, RELAX no one said its finished. I think you need a beer!

wondering, I AGREE wholeheartedly.

Teenie Teenie
Apr '15

Actually teenie the article from the radio station said it is almost complete. Although I do not recall being worked up over it, I would love a beer.

Wondering...I am wondering what exactly you are talking about? It seems you are upset over someone's post...especially to wish negative life changing events on everyone....that's pretty extreme. I don't think anyone said anything bad about low income housing, we just showed concern for grouping that low income housing all in one spot.

Darrin Darrin
Apr '15

Darwin: have to clean coffee from keyboard after that one :>)

Wondering: I did say I was in dilemma. And don't get me wrong; I was started in a place you would not even go to, and if you did, you would lock your doors, stay in the car, and keep moving, even with your righteous Christian spirit.

My point is I am not against COAH but feel mixed housing is the way to go. Unfortunately that is difficult to plan, we tend to cluster, then surrounding areas tend to cluster against the hub......like development to the lowest common denominator so Chester is rich and Hackettstown is not.

So my point of concern is 100 units in this part of town is a big number that should concern us all but anyone closer will be more concerned, that's life. But what's more important is........what's next?

mistergoogle mistergoogle
Apr '15

:) MG

I’m not against COAH housing if it were condos rather than rentals. I was able to buy a condo at the age of 23 in the Bedminster Hills because it was in a COAH development section. My mortgage payments were less than most of my friends that were renting. And as my income grew I was able to afford my house here in town.

I think with condos you get more stability in the occupants so it’s less stress on the town. But 100 rental apartments that can have so many turnovers year after year I don’t see how the town can plan for that. Think about it, 1 year you can have 100kids in those apartments and then a few years later it can change higher or lower so dramatically. So the town makes changes based on the current # and then has to change again when those #s shift.

darwin darwin
Apr '15

I too started out in COAH, ours was a middle class single family split level but at COAH rental rates split amongst a number of us renters. So, it was not a COAH home, but rented at the COAH rate. After a decade, it could be sold at market rates. That was the alternative to putting up a real COAH house.

We tried, but I admit we were the least respectable home on the cul-de-sac; certainly a B tenet. Lots of bikes, big blocks, beer, babes, and bbqs. Used to tell people, just look for the brown yard. But we were nice, respectful, turned down the sound early, and all the new Dads in the neighborhood enjoyed the keggers and daisy dukes roaming through. At least they always turned up to say howdy about then.

Funnier yet, since we built the home, it had more amenities that any other on the cul-de-sac, finished basement, extra rooms, closets, upscale carpets, fixtures, fenced yard, extra windows and door, etc. so I guess once turned respectable, it was the queen of the split levels there.

mistergoogle mistergoogle
Apr '15

How about townhouses instead of condo's at least there would be ownership and a better fit for the neighborhood. Might require some compromise with less apartments and some for sale product which would be better for the town. Thoughts?

hackettstown townie hackettstown townie
Apr '15

HT, I tend to agree, so long that they do not cram as many as possible in there, I do not feel the area can support that many added residents. The developer is looking to maximize his profit with disregard to where he is building, stores with 99 apartments on top. Rumor has it the developer is already asking for more apartments......(again rumor! I cannot confirm this is true, it is something I was told)

Darrin Darrin
Apr '15

you would still have ownership with condos.

the condos would go above the storefronts. Townhomes are side by side and don't have anything below them. Townhomes own the exterior of their home while a condo only owns the interior walls of their home. so if they are going to do storefronts then condos would be what they built above them if they don't do apartments. So its not a debate between condo vs townhouses for Phase 2 its a debate between condos and rental apartments.

Now Phase 3 we can see a whole bunch of options from commerical office space, to townhouses to more rental aprtments.... nothing has been ruled out so far for that Phase.

Phase 2 is the issue the public needs to be focusing on now.

darwin darwin
Apr '15

So the buildings are down, besides the one which is still being remediation. Now lets see when and how the foundations are removed.

Darrin Darrin
May '15

Looks great. Bergen St looks nice too.

Why do you think the foundations won't go? They plan on building where they are so they would need to come out for the new foundations to go in right?

Darwin Darwin
May '15

Sadly, now we have to look at those "homes" on top of Hackettstown Mtn. One good thing about the old Bergen tool, it hid them.

Ms. Fishy Ms. Fishy
May '15

During discussions at prior town meetings the developer said many times they may be leaving them and just covering with soil until phase 2, which does nothing for runoff, especially with the addition of CVS.

I had contacted the developer direct with the question a few weeks ago and was told they would be leaving them.

I personally feel this does not meet the full site clean up requirements set into the site resolutions for CVS.

Darrin Darrin
May '15

I agree Ms. Fishy, what an eye sore that slash upon the mountain is.

Darrin, won't these foundations be building or parking lot covered or are some of them open spaces?

mistergoogle mistergoogle
May '15

The slabs will all be open space until anything happens with phase 2 which could potentially be years out, we have not seen any formal meetings on their plans. Plans have been submitted, but initial particulars cannot seem to be agreed upon to make it to a formal meeting.

What we "agreed" to during the CVS meetings was that the slabs were to be removed and converted to turf for the time being.

Also to add, the parking lot of CVS needed to be porous pavement to allow the rain water through, I would think they would do the same for the remainder of the property, but this would mean nothing if there was cement right under porous pavement.

Darrin Darrin
May '15

I get it and seems right as rain to hold them to their agreement even if to set the stage for the next round of agreements.

Yet no net difference to run off from previous if left untouched. Shocked they agreed to turf conversion, that's probably pretty tough and expensive place to grow grass. Gonna need a bigger roto.

Good luck, hope you got minutes, documents, recordings, lawyers, guns and money..... Best luck.

mistergoogle mistergoogle
May '15

guns and money is not necessary, but persistence and care for your town is

Darrin Darrin
May '15

Someone will qualify for the low income housing and bring all there relatives to live in a one bedroom.That is what is going on NOW on main street over the stores.

Intrest
May '15

Darrin, Do you happen to know what the one (and only) building left standing was used for, when the plant was operating?

deviljet
May '15

It's all speculation that feeds into the hysteria. Darrin I'm not sure where you get your information but isn't it better to at least see if something is proposed first. I understand from visiting the town there have been ongoing discussions about the stormwater and that is holding up the application on the remaining sections. Not that the developer isn't trying to proceed but that the town engineer wants to make sure that the stormwater works.

hackettstown townie hackettstown townie
May '15

That's just a line from a song Darrin, not serious, just funning.

But in all seriousness, money does matter. That's why developers can't pull some of this cra.....ola in Far Hills. Money = lawyers and that can certainly put some cogs in those developers wheels.

Darrin, based on your reporting, I don't see rampant speculation leading to hysteria. To me, the fact that we're looking at a good sized apartment-above-store complex, signals warning, warning, warning. Not that this can't be done right, IMHO as to what right is, but there is much more probability of doing it wrong.

Keep up the good fight and most certainly hold these folks to their agreements and statements.

mistergoogle mistergoogle
May '15

@deviljet, yes I do, actually spoke to one of the guys on the demolition team this weekend about it. It was one of the main old boiler houses. It is still standing because it is the only building on site that needs full remediation due to dangerous asbestos. The other cleanup was done was in the roofing and other small things.

@hackettstown townie, I have every right to be concerned what they do, my house is directly affected by the runoff from this site. I have had water coming in my basement windows. So sit back and let it happen is not an option. I have personally seen how the site and area floods, most of the engineers involved are working off computer mappings and pictures, big difference.

I do not quite understand what you are saying, because what we are discussing is the possibility of the slabs being left on site, If I read your message right you are saying wait to see what the site plans are.....two years ago we were told the plans were 45-60 days out.....this was over two years ago. So we must proceed, at the very least until plans are APPROVED, as if nothing will be build on the remainder of the property. Waiting for developers is what gets towns in trouble.

And to answer you question, I take my questions directly to the source, I am in contact with the developer and the town engineer on almost a bi-weekly basis.

Darrin Darrin
May '15

"It's all speculation that feeds into the hysteria"

What speculation are you talking about?

"isn't it better to at least see if something is proposed first"

Are you talking about leaving the slabs, apartments? I am confused, because everything we have been talking about has been in one way or another proposed

Darrin Darrin
May '15

Darrin is an excitable boy... at least that's what Roland said before he lost his head. Maybe he'll leave him his Thompson gun (-;

ianimal ianimal
May '15

Darrin is right to be concerned. I live a couple blocks away, and the times that stream overflowed above us, which has happened more than once, we had tremendous flooding! HFD pumped us out 3 or 4 times over the last few years.

deviljet
May '15

ianimal... "Enjoy Every Sandwich"... the late and great...

Townie Townie
May '15

Keep in mind purposed does not necessarily mean brought to a public meeting, it can mean what the developer is asking for but has not made it to a meeting yet. Some of these things you had to be at meetings to know. Thought the years of meetings we have learned what they want to do, so there is no speculation to it, if they are looking to do it, it is worth talking about prior to the meetings, that's how good ideas are brought up.

Darrin Darrin
May '15

Even of they do take the foundation slabs out don't they have to put in another foundation for their buildings?

Flooding is a problem on that road. BUT Bergen has been there a very long time. I can tell you this was not the case for all the years Bergen has been there. This I happened in the maybe about 10 yrs. You cannot blame Bergen something else caused it.

Teenie Teenie
May '15

Yes they do have to put in new slabs, but they will also have to put in one or more retention ponds. So the point here is that the developer was unwilling to do the retention pond with phase 1, so the town requested the buildings be removed to help runoff instead.

Nobody is blaming bergen.

Darrin Darrin
May '15

I think flooding is worse everywhere recently but that's not what Darrin seems after. He seems to be seeking the opportunity to develop for improvement plus holding the stakeholders to the agreements previously made.

Sounds kosher to me.

mistergoogle mistergoogle
May '15

Wait a minute Darrin. There are plans filed for the next section and there in the town, you can look at them, I did. So what are presuming versus what is filed? Also you need to be objective on this. I presume your flooding issue existed when you bought your house so the old saying 'Caveat Emptor" buyer be aware applies. I have spent considerable time going through the Forum site and you seem to have made many statments on flooding that exists today. So even if Bergen never got developed your problem exists today right? Have you approached the town about a solution to your issue in previous years? And if you haven't why not. Also I saw significant commentary on environmental conditions on the site. Why wouldn't you want the site cleanup. And realistically do you really expect someone to cleanup a site without some idea that they can recover the investment.

I see allot of comments from people against project without consideration of all the pre-existing conditions: flooding, enivormental, non payment of taxes and the terrible eyesore on the Main Street. I am happy this eyesore is gone and finally progress is being made.

hackettstown townie hackettstown townie
May '15

Spot on MG!

@hackettstown townie "I presume your flooding issue existed when you bought your house so the old saying 'Caveat Emptor" buyer be aware applies"

Oh stop with that, if I had a dollar for every time I have heard that from people on this forum, read up, my story is in one of these threads. Point is, a town shouldn't shoot to have homes not sell because they flood, so that is a lame excuse and does nothing to solve the real problem at hand.

The plans you are seeing at the town are plans the developer has applied for, they do not meet the town engineers initial review, and until they do, they will not be brought to a formal meeting....aka no sense in wasting everyone's time, although I would like to know some of the points they are bringing up. They are a good start for, as you said "speculation" and "hysteria" though if that is your thing.

you are going over a lot of old stuff here, but I will try my best to answer your questions as shortly as possible. If you want to meet up sometime I can explain all of this to you in person, it would probably be better for both of us.

"So even if Bergen never got developed your problem exists today right? "

Correct, but the site acts as a runoff area (this has been discussed both here and at meetings) the developer, including CVS will be raising the property, water will no longer run into the property as it currently does. we cannot have the flooding issue get worse.

"Have you approached the town about a solution to your issue in previous years?"

No because the existing site always acted as a buffer and the majority of flood water ran into this site.

"Why wouldn't you want the site cleanup."

When did I ever say I didn't want the site cleaned up?

"And realistically do you really expect someone to cleanup a site without some idea that they can recover the investment."

Where did I say I didn't want anything on the site?

Again, if you would like to meet up I can answer all your questions you may want to ask, but we are sort of back peddling the progression of this topic to do it here.

Darrin Darrin
May '15

MG said it best by "develop for improvement"

But my concern is not making the current situation worse. I was at the town meetings where they were saying the development would not make it worse, they assured us..... but I also told them during public review that the models they were using (and showed) did not nearly reflect how the runoff comes through the site in real life.....so whats going to happen is up to the engineer and his computer......I really do hope he was right, but based off the fact he was not using correct info to begin with......

Darrin Darrin
May '15

No body even mentioned what kind of traffic problems are in store. I can't even imagine what that will be like!

pampurr pampurr
May '15

If your concern is not making the site worse, then the town fathers have let you down.

Why develop if new development is not going to profit both the owners and the area. I am sorry, but to pampurr's point, why should I put up with one extra car if there is no WIFM. Much less, the extra kids, sewage, etc. etc. etc. I am sorry but frankly most of us paid more for the infrastructure for these things than these residents ever will.

So Darrin, stay the course and hold them to their commitments. And don't feel embarrassed (not that I can ever imagine that) for asking for WIFM on any new development in the area. No development is an island, they are not self sufficient, so yes, they have the right to develop, but not the right to develop at will. New developments should be a win-win-win, good for the developer, good for the area, and good for those who ultimately live and work there. Anything less is insufficient leadership.

Man, the oxygen is thin on top of my soapbox :>)

mistergoogle mistergoogle
May '15

Darrin, okay good commentary and yes I am a townie come lately and will try to stay current. But I still think that it's factual the property is going to be developed. The developer is clearly spending significant money cleaning up the site and demolishing the property. How it gets developed will require approvals, however, it's going to be developed. In reading through all the posts it doesn't look like your neighborhood has any water control now and that has to be part of the problem. However, I don't see how the neighborhoods problem is the developers problem? I presume the developer has to have a plan to address his water control? If there being asked to address the neighborhood how is that fair? May I got this all wrong and you know more but I don't see how anyone can be asked to correct a problem they didn't create?

hackettstown townie hackettstown townie
May '15

CVs isn't going to add much traffic, but it will add commercial traffic to a once residential street, which i am less than thrilled about. phase two with apartments and who knows what stores will be the biggest increase.

There has been many posts about traffic, flooding, taxes, cleanup, maybe not in this thread, but it has extensively been discussed.

Darrin Darrin
May '15

To answer your question HT, you are looking at the scenario without knowing what current conditions exist and knowing how what the developer plans to do will change these current conditions, yes we do have storm drains right now, but currently that property is a low area and allows the runoff that flows like a stream down third street to flow into the property, go look sometime at where third street meets with the property and this will all make sense, I have even posted many pictures on this site of this occurring. By flowing into the current Bergen property the water has a place to dissipate, where cvs is to be built is one of the lowest areas around, but cvs will be raising the proper by 2-3 feet, so this will no longer occur.

Also again, I know the property will be developed, no where have I denied that.

Darrin Darrin
May '15

To put it in lamens terms, the Bergen property has a pre existing issue where it is the lowest property and water runs into the site. During the development they pan to raise the property which will cause these waters to run around the property rather then into it like it used to

Yes measures for CVs were put in to increase the size of the east stiger storm drains but in my opinion this will not offset them raising the property.

They said this will help the area, I will believe it when I see it, I fought for a retention pond with this phase but lost, so if my home gets damaged because of their decisions...... ..

Darrin Darrin
May '15

But if the neighborhoods water is going to the developers site is that his problem? If your sending water to your next door neighbor don't you have to address that. Or are you saying the developer has to take the water? Why? Doesn't make any sense to me why someone is burden by someone else's problem. That's why we pay taxes so it seems to be that the taxpayers affected by the issue should look to the town to address the issue? Isn't that the correct way.

hackettstown townie hackettstown townie
May '15

The site has always taken water. If you are in a flood area it is actually illegal to raise your property. The developer's site, when purchased was a flood area (along with the houses in this area), and was taking this water, it has always taken this water, he cannot simply divert it onto the houses.

You have to deal with the topography you are dealt, it is something that maybe the developer should of looked further into before buying the property. The solution cannot be to divert.

So if I am reading your post right, you are all for it not being their problem and raising that property so the water floods out the homes instead? And that the town should spend the however much money to correct this issue, even though the solution has always been that property?

My grandfather lives on the other side of 46, when the brook overflows he gets 4-5 feet of mud and water into his basement. (this has happened twice in the 50 years he has lived there) (and this is the whole towns water that comes down the brook) So he should just build a berm or raise his property to direct the water away from his property and into the other neighbors property? This is what you are saying is okay.

The real problem is that the brook is our towns go to water runoff dump, and they keep adding and adding and adding to it.

I forgot to add the fact that what the developer plans on building, as well as the massive amount of pavement that will be laid will all be diverted into this same stream. SO how is that fair? They will be taking a site that had zero storm drains and dumping a lot of it back into this already problematic brook.

Darrin Darrin
May '15

Actually HT, the state law is not "do no harm" when it comes to adding run off due to development, the law is "make things better." That goes for residential as well. That's why you see so many single family homes with detention basins.

From tentowns.org for example:
"Flood control – same as existing, must reduce peak flow of 2, 10 and 100-year storm to 50%, 75% and 80% of pre-existing condition

Quality – Must decrease post-development total suspended solids load by 80%

Infiltration – Must recharge 100% of the volume recharged prior to the site’s development, provisions included for redevelopment."

Key words: reduce, pre-existing condition, decrease, recharge..... All aimed at improvement of existing conditions during development. And if adjacent waterways are C1 or HUC14, there are buffer and encroachment limits and stricter regulations.

www.tentowns.org/10t/docs_etc/stormregs.ppt

mistergoogle mistergoogle
May '15

Good info thanks mg, did not have the time to look up the actual guidelines on the phone.

Darrin Darrin
May '15

Yeah, this is engineer stuff, but when you look at the developments around like Walmart, Target, Lowes, etc. you certainly see detention in abundance. Peak flow and recharge would be where you focus I guess. Any chance your stream has those classifications? That would be an entirely different ball game.

mistergoogle mistergoogle
May '15

The rear of the bergen property has been used for runoff ever since that pipe and runoff area was put on their property, I would assume this is something the property owner knew when he bought the property.

When the brook reaches it's maximum capacity it backs out into this area, out the storm drains, and out that pipe on the bergen property flooding the bergen property. The property owner must make this better, not simply say "get this off my property, not my problem. It has been there prior to his purchase, and was there when he purchased it. Much like the ordinance to keep the front building was, but we see how that worked out.

Darrin Darrin
May '15

Darrin, is that the ditch that runs around the perimeter of the property and behind the houses..because I have seen that flooded out on people's backyards that are adjacent to the ball-field.

pampurr pampurr
May '15

I am speaking of the ditch that channels the water from 3rd street into the open culvert on the bergen property. If you go down 3rd street where it dead ends to the bergen property you will see exactly what I am talking about/

Darrin Darrin
May '15

Thank MG educational.

hackettstown townie hackettstown townie
May '15

The stream is the brook that crosses route 46 right by prospect street. Most to all of the runoff for the area runs into this brook, including some of the runoff from whats to be built at bergen

Darrin Darrin
May '15

A HUC-14 isn't a stream classification. It's the smallest sub watershed that is defined by NJDEP and each is named for the stretch of waterway that it drains to. HUC stands for hydrologic unit code. The 14 stands for the number of digits that are used to identify the area. Larger watersheds are HUC-11s, which can have up to 1,000 HUC-14s within its boundary, but usually not nearly that many.

The stream in question isn't C-1; otherwise it would have a 300' riparian zone buffer.

I recall looking at the FEMA flood maps a long time ago and the Bergen Tool site wasn't mapped as being within a flood zone itself. So, the "zero net-fill" of the Flood Hazard Area Control Act rules wouldn't necessarily apply. But, the Town Engineer nonetheless has an obligation to ensure that the development doesn't exacerbate flooding elsewhere.

iPhone-imal iPhone-imal
May '15

I think there's still a 50ft riparian zone buffer required but now I am not sure that the regs I linked to were C1, watershed or for streams and storm systems not designated as such. Much verbage to digest, much run off.

mistergoogle mistergoogle
May '15

Having spent some time reading through the link that mistergoogle gave it would look like the real issue is that the neighborhood around Bergen was built with no drainage control other than to send it a stream. So if the surrounding neighborhood has a problem I again ask why the town has never addressed it? Also I lookedup Fema on line. I don't understand the maps that well, however, if I read them right I don't see Bergen as being in a flood zone.

hackettstown townie hackettstown townie
May '15

When purchased the bergen tool property was in a flood zone, as well as my house. This changed at the same time that the developer started making plans for the site. Had this not changed, I do not believe they would of been able to change any current elevation on site.

Again, HT, the town has addressed it, they dug the ditch that runs through bergen tool deeper, and that has helped tremendously. The town has piping on bergen tool that floods out when the brook overflows, acting like a retention pond now, that was existing when the owner purchased the bergen property.

If you are looking for a complete fix of the problem and feel that the bergen development shouldn't have anything to do with the issues that affects all of our properties (this is what it sounds like you are saying) please expect a very serious tax hike, because it is not a easy fix. at the very minimum It may require the town to purchase a section of the bergen property to make their own retention pond. The brook cannot handle the peak water flow now, yet we keep allowing more developments and adding to a already problematic stream.

It was said at previous meetings that the bergen site receives something like 56 acres of runoff from surrounding properties.....this is not a "problem" this is just topography and has to do with that property being the lowest around....this existed prior to them purchasing the property, and how did you say it?

" I presume your flooding issue existed when you bought your house so the old saying 'Caveat Emptor" buyer be aware applies."

Darrin Darrin
May '15

The flooding problems on the Bergen Tool property started after the construction of the Countryside housing and apartments development farther up Prospect Street.Prior to that housing construction there was little or no flooding on the Bergen Tool property.

consumer.
May '15

good info consumer, do you know when those apartments were built?

Darrin Darrin
May '15

I think this is the map you're referring to ianimal:

http://www.hackettstownlife.com/images/forum/2013/05/8b97b98c4cd7e1201a88b47b8bcacd10b6d87a42.jpg

From this thread:
http://www.hackettstownlife.com/forum/450140#t521312

justintime justintime
May '15

Correct JIT, unfortunately like I said at the time that map was posted, it does not correctly reflect how the brook busts the banks, anyone that lives in this immediate area could agree. Water flows down third street and down main street flooding east stiger and the bergen property. It has happened 2-3 times in the past 5 years, so I cannot see how that is a accurate "flood" map for the area.

That has been my ongoing issue with all of this, this map being the same map that the engineers could be using, and then you got incorrect information all around, thus why I have been so actively voicing my concerns with flooding in this area. I have all the minutes saved where I was explaining to the engineers their maps were not accurate, as well as pictures and videos I posted both on here and emailed to our town engineer.

I actually have a video of water 2 feet deep flowing into the bergen property from third street taken just three years ago, so how can that be a accurate map?

Darrin Darrin
May '15

Re: Bergen Tool- CVS approved

"recycled" brick anyone?

They currently filled in the foundation of the front building with the recycled brick without removing the walls or the slabs. I am not sure if this is temporary, or permanent, but have reached out to the proper people to ask whats going on.

Darrin Darrin
May '15

Would love to know what their planning on doing?

pampurr pampurr
May '15

Re: Bergen Tool- CVS approved

I can 100% tell you the developer "wants" to leave the slabs, it would cost him less money. But I am not so sure this will meet the requirement of cleaning the site and removing the entirety of the buildings.

Do remember this area where the picture was taken used to be about 4-5 feet below the road (estimating here). It is now all filled with crushed brick.

Darrin Darrin
May '15

HT: I think all drainage controls ultimately send it to a stream. The law attempts to lessen the amounts, speed and velocity as part of any new development. Generally when you develop, your goal is to get rid of water ASAP. Also, generally when you develop you reduce the amount of water that was being absorbed. So, you have more water and want to get rid of it ASAP.

What I think the law requires is less. So developers, at minimum, need to provide ways to lessen the water and for the water that runs off, "detain" said water from freely and rapidly entering the streams it will ultimately flow to.

In Darrin's example, the slabs are not increasing the amount of water or flow from when the building(s) were there. That damage was established upon building the building in the first place. But removing the slabs and replacing with turf will reduce the amount of water and slow the flow from what is was previously with the buildings or the slab.

Yet all that really does not matter, what matters is Darrin states there was a developer commitment to do so and the town should hold the developer to his commitment. Less water is better for all of us. And then in the long run, the new development should lessen the amount and detain the flow, according to the law. If the apartments created some of the current problem, note that the law was probably in place at that time so extreme community vigilance, especially from potentially affected neighbors downstream, seems appropriate.

Fool be once, shame on you. Fool me twice........

mistergoogle mistergoogle
May '15

You hit the nail on the head MG.

I did not live in town at the time of the apartment development, I only know of what occurs since I have lived here.

Darrin Darrin
May '15

If i remember correctly, They said at the flood meeting that the MAIN issue was the sewer at that interection has many different pipes flowing to it. So rain water all the way from Grand Ave actually get flowed to that interection and the pipe is not big enough to handle all that water. It was a poor design from the get go. I'm sure the apartments at Countryside on added to the existing issue.

darwin darwin
May '15

The current Stormwater Rules (NJAC 7:8) that require runoff rate reductions, groundwater recharge and water quality treatment were adopted in February of 2004 for residential projects through the Residential Site Improvement Standards.

They didn't begin to be applied to non-residential projects until municipalities adopted ordinances that were essentially carbon copies of NJAC 7:8. Most municipalities were in compliance sometime in 2006. So, it's a relatively recent development; the prior standard was "no net increase", but I'm not 100% sure when that standard went into effect and superseded the time when, like you said, developers (and municipalities) simply tried to collect the stormwater and discharge it offsite as quickly as possible.

ianimal ianimal
May '15

So you have water from the Countryside apartments flowing to that intersection, you have water coming down Main St from Independence flowing to that intersection as well as water from Grand Ave. All meeting at that 1 pipe.

darwin darwin
May '15

@darwin "It was a poor design from the get go"

Poor design if you keep adding to it, sure, but other then that, it had worked fine since installed, so at what point should it be upgraded, and who's responsibility should it be? The town's or the developers who want to add to it?

At previous meetings I remember them saying it would be near impossible to upgrade that pipe due to location and underground utilities.

I wouldn't think that countryside flows down to that pipe, it would make more sense to dump into the stream up there. But correct on all water from main street to grand ave coming into that pipe.

Darrin Darrin
May '15

And the somewhat ironic part is that NJDEP will never let the Town enlarge the culvert in that area because it would increase flooding downstream. The only thing they could do is build their own detention basins to attenuate the flows to that point; I doubt they have the land available to make that a feasible solution, though.

ianimal ianimal
May '15

Iman: original rules were the 90's and like you said, may have been "no net increase" versus less.

When I did my drainage connection to "the system" in an surrounding township, to be honest, the county didn't even know the full extent and capacity of "the system" because it is so old and records so poor.

So as far as downstream effects, I am guessing they really just don't know.

mistergoogle mistergoogle
May '15

so where is the turning point?

We already are obviously over the maximum capacity for this culvert. Even the proposed bigger drainage on east stiger street is not fixing this, it is applying a band-aid and allowing the water a place to back up into. We already see what happens when these fill, I have posted pictures of water coming back out of the storm drains in this area, so all this bigger culvert is going to do is delay the inevitable.

With the addition of phase two and a retention pond, you are applying a even bigger band-aid and making a even larger area for the water to back up into.

At what point do we stop adding and fix what we have now?

Darrin Darrin
May '15

Darrin, truly "fixing" what you have now involves buying out everyone in the floodplain and knocking those houses down. They never should have been built there in the first place.

ianimal ianimal
May '15

But my home is not considered a flood plain anymore....and that was a recent decision....

Most of the houses that are in the current floodplain were there before the brook was probably even used for runoff. My grandfathers house is completely covered in blue on your map, was built in the 40's before the brook EVER had that much water. My home has been here since the 30s.

So my question is, why is the homes that have been here for years the ones that "should of never been built there" when back when they were built, there was not this issue? Wouldn't the real issue be the homes or developments that have created this flooding due to their impervious coverage, poor drainage, or whatever else might be adding to the issue?

Darrin Darrin
May '15

Darrin best sell a car or a couple of guns and invest in a small boat before the next big rain.

eapos eapos
May '15

The Countryside houses and apartments were built in the early 1970s. No retention basins were needed at the time.The water runoff increased greatly and the Bergen Tool property became flooded after almost any heavy rainstorm.

consumer.
May '15

People being bought out for flooding have all asked that same question; answer is when it is cheaper to buy them out than save them which might take a lot more storms in your case.

But given the situation, any new development should lessen, meaning improve, the situation, that's the law. So if done correctly, the detention, retention ponds and other developments should make things better versus the same or worse. That's the law I believe.

Removing the slabs and putting in turf is another story since, if I am reading correctly, it is interim and not the final development. There, I believe from what you have said, is that you have a commitment and that's what should suffice to get er done.

mistergoogle mistergoogle
May '15

Re: Bergen Tool- CVS approved

Darrin, attached is the portion of your personal HUC-14 that is tributary to the culvert that crosses Main Street. I'm going to guess that the watershed to that point is about 3-3.5 square miles and 80-90% of its land area is located in Independence Township. Lucky for you, it's also very sparsely developed. Imagine if it all looked like the Hackettstown portion of the map.

So, if the Trout Brook floods today, which is what would be shown on the FEMA maps, I'm pretty sure that it was flooding 50, 100 and 100,000 years ago and the houses nearest to it were flooding out occasionally ever since they were built.

The "drainage problem" caused by undersized storm sewers is apparently a different localized problem that I don't have nearly enough information at my disposal to assess. But, if you look at the Bergen Tool property in extreme lower right portion of the map, compared to the overall watershed, I think you can see that there isn't anything that they can do that will fix the problems down there. The only thing you can ask is that they don't make them any worse.

Also, the Trout Brook is C-1, but it's a lot further away than 300' from the Bergen Tool property, so it won't have any impact on their development in that regard.

ianimal ianimal
May '15

Ianimal, I think we are talking about two different areas.

The troutbrook's banks at the point you circled is actually higher elevation then bergen tool property. The pipe I keep referring to that is undersized is actually under the intersection of main and east&west stiger street. This pipe is where drainage from the brook to this intersection, and from grand ave to this intersection all meet and make their way to the brook.

The real issue is the brook gets too full, and what happens is the undersized pipe that runs down west stiger (same one as mentioned above) and dumps into the brook backs up because it can no longer dump into the brook as designed. Once the brook reaches that point it busts it's banks up behind country side apartments and comes out and down main street. Having no storm drains to go into (they are all full and backed up) it comes all the way down to that same intersection (west&east stiger and main) and bergen tool (lowest area) and floods the area.

Darrin Darrin
May '15

Re: Bergen Tool- CVS approved

I would think that taking down the all of the buildings on the Bergen property and leaving the slabs would definitely make a change in where the water will divert to. The buildings had gutters and down spouts that would have diverted the water to multiple and certain areas. Also, if not mistaken, I believe that there was one or a couple of storm drains on the Bergen property that lead to the intersection or Bergen St or both. Not sure if they were removed but if all the rain water lands on the slabs and the slabs are pitched to the storm drain, does it add more water to the drains or less water to the drains and flood the Bergen property? The last big rain storm we had this year after they started removing the buildings my business' parking lot on West Stiger St flooded out more than it has in a long time.

Also, are there any environmental issues with the materials in the slabs? Are there issues UNDER the slabs? Has the soil been tested under the slabs? Or is the developer just burying the slabs and his head under the ground? I recall the slabs being a part of the cleanup/removal of the buildings at the meetings I attended and think the developer should hold up his end of the obligation. The town planners allowed for the main building to be removed after it was initially supposed to be adapted into the plan. In my opinion, it seems the developers take but don't want to give back.

THE MORP
May '15

Re: Bergen Tool- CVS approved

Here is a photo of Bergen St flooding during the same rain storm.

THE MORP
May '15

"to preserve and reuse as many bricks as possible which will be used in the Phase 2 buildings."

Given where we are in the process, do you think this is happening?

mistergoogle mistergoogle
May '15

Re: Bergen Tool- CVS approved

I have folders of pictures of flooding from every year since I have lived here. I have videos of white water rushing into the bergen property. I have pictures of west prospect street so deep in water you would of lost a car, not ruined a car....lost a car

Here is that intersection (west&east stiger and main) with the undersized pipe and what happens

Bergen property is just out of the photo but this area is higher then the majority of the bergen property

Darrin Darrin
May '15

Re: Bergen Tool- CVS approved

Here is one of the water so deep it created white water going down third street like I was talking about

Darrin Darrin
May '15

Re: Bergen Tool- CVS approved

Here is a picture of that same third street picture the next morning just so you can tell how deep the water was, look at the water line on the right side

Darrin Darrin
May '15

Re: Bergen Tool- CVS approved

Here is the water flowing into the bergen property

Darrin Darrin
May '15

Re: Bergen Tool- CVS approved

And A final picture of west prospect looking out to main. Most of these pictures have been posted here in the past, but I have many many more

Darrin2
May '15

Thanks for the pics Darrin..

pampurr pampurr
May '15

My question is if the response to the flooding issue is "They never should have been built there in the first place." Why are we allowing a development to be built currently?

MG, yes I do believe so. I posted a picture a while ago of the demolition team stacking bricks from one of the rear buildings on pallets. Also based on my conversation with one of the workers, who was very nice I must add, he said they were instructed to save a few pallets of bricks

The "as many bricks as possible" is really an interpretation. I am sure they did not save "as many as actually possible" The spent one day stacking a few pallets after knocking down one of the rear buildings and that was it (from what I could see)

Darrin Darrin
May '15

Re: Bergen Tool- CVS approved

Hey, if the new thing uses blended bricks that compliment the saved bricks for size n color, it will be better looking IMHO than a monotone red so I think saving any bodes well for the final look n feel.

Now here's a classic CVS.....

mistergoogle mistergoogle
May '15

Re: Bergen Tool- CVS approved

But when using a monotone brick and basic design, sometimes the results are met with mixed feelings by the neighborhood.

Can anyone post pictures of our design?

mistergoogle mistergoogle
May '15

Re: Bergen Tool- CVS approved

I do not have them in color, but you may be able to see them at town hall, here is what I did have though

Darrin Darrin
May '15

Re: Bergen Tool- CVS approved

And other side

The other two sides are plain with a loading area and such

Darrin Darrin
May '15

Thanks and IMHO Not bad, not the worst. CVS designs are eclectic and while they do have some modern basic box store types, often they incorporate old buildingd or coordinate design with surrounds. Seems like they are trying to fit "our town" versus coordinating with the stucco strips across the street. Good.

Could not find any existing pictures matching ours except one that was much more grandiose re the towers and such.

mistergoogle mistergoogle
May '15

Eclectic??? That's is the last word comes to mind with any CVS I've ever seen around these parts. Someone must have forgot to tell them to "incorporate" Pal's Cabin, and the Lockwood Tavern.

Denis Denis
May '15

ianimal, you nailed it I saw the same thing you did on FEMA maps. The main problem in in Independence from a watershed perspective and the fact that Hackettstown allowed in the past development with little on no stormwater control. Also I did speak with a engineer I know and he told me that same thing mistergoogle stated the Bergen Tool developer needs to actually reduce and control runoff and not increase the existing situation.

It would seem that this is a win for the town. The developer reduces runoff a eyesore is gone and the property gets redeveloped which helps everyone. Also the environmental cleanup is done. Am I missing something?

hackettstown townie hackettstown townie
May '15

You are absolutely correct HT, the concern is making sure all 4 things you listed are done properly and as promised. This developer seems to have a history with this project of going back on his word.

Examples:

Bought the property knowing the front building was to stay, did nothing to preserve the front building and let it rot for 3 years, then came back to board begging to take it down.

Slab removal: was told that the property must be cleaned up in it's entirety, now is trying to leave the slabs.

So I want to make sure what we were told at meetings, and what we were promised in the resolutions actually happens. If the developers engineer is using inaccurate runoff maps, but says runoff will be reduced, well that better be what happens.

When you introduce the well being of my home into the equation, I have every right to be concerned. If this system fails or is in any way too undersized, the surrounding houses will be the ones to pay the price. Luckily our town engineer has been great with taking pictures and ideas and being there to ask questions, he really has been a huge help.

Darrin Darrin
May '15

Re: Bergen Tool- CVS approved

And is what Ian is saying is true....

"Also, the Trout Brook is C-1, but it's a lot further away than 300' from the Bergen Tool property, so it won't have any impact on their development in that regard."

Then why do we have pictures like this from the brook busting it's banks and coming down main street to the bergen property?

Darrin Darrin
May '15

Re: Bergen Tool- CVS approved

Ending up down by bergen tool.

Darrin Darrin
May '15

Re: Bergen Tool- CVS approved

And when you get a big storm you get this down at the bergen tool property

Unfortunately I do not have a picture of the bergen property at this time, but if you look at the topography of the property it is very easy to realize that the property would of had a crap ton of water. Yet the brook doesn't affect us, and we are not in a classified flood plain?

Darrin Darrin
May '15

HT, yes you are right but it takes vigilance and some good town government to make it happen. Remember, I connected a drainage system directly to the county without detention or flow control through, what I thought was a compelling set of facts and persistence. Imagine what a savvy developer might convince others of.

Darrin, with the slabs only a few things can happen. One, they renege and you lose. Your current situation. Two, they punt it downfield, offer some future consideration for leaving the slabs, hopefully a win-win. Would probably be proffered at some future meeting if you keep the pressure on. Three, they meet commitments and you win.

If you lose that bodes ill and you should get support, change it up, do something since you are about to lose again if you keep doing what you're doing (losing). If you take the win-win, you need to set some interim check points to better assure they will actually pick up the ball they punted downfield. At some point you may, probably will be, at the win-lose point again.

Denis, the picture I posted was CVS incorporation into what looks like a 100+ year old building, ye olden apothecary if you will. They have done similar things many times resulting in many different looks for CVS buildings. Eclectic designs: I think I nailed it :>) Just google cvs building pictures. However, I would gather the towns where they opted for this put some constraints on plan acceptance yet CVS seems to be able to roll with those punches. Our new CVS seems to be leaning that way versus looking like those modern big cookie cutter boxes dropped from the sky, i.e. the other side of the street from Bergen or what the fast food strip is headling towards. So I would say we rolled over on the building retention, but not quite like a $25 Tijuana......oh never mind.

mistergoogle mistergoogle
May '15

Constantly loosing is not what we should aim for. The town needs to put the brakes on and not allow changes to the plan, especially not ones that put the surrounding homes in jeopardy. The buildings were to be removed in their entirety due to runoff issues, this was decided because CVS would of tremendously benefited from adding a retention pond to their phase 1 development, but they threatened to back out of the deal when presented with the idea or if they were even made to wait for a retention pond to be built by the property owner, so complete removal was the only way the town could open up enough property to dissipate the water on site without a retention pond.

We cannot allow developers into our town that promise things and then try to change what they promised or even punt it down the field. If we agreed that the entirety of the buildings must be removed for CVS to get a CO, then that is what must happen, because it was obviously decided on for a reason. Time will tell, I have a email out to our town engineer awaiting a response on a update of the slab issue.

Darrin Darrin
May '15

Who told you CVS was going to back out of the deal. Is that speculation or do you have it on fact? I did take the time to read over the many posts and most are yours but I don't see anything about that. Also you say CVS would have benefited tremendously from a detention basin based on what, your opinion, there opinion, who's.

Also I don't understand why you haven't pursued the town more aggressively on this in terms of the existing condition today, surely they have some obligation to you and your neighbors. From all the posts you've made it seems that prior to this very little was being done. Now that the properties being developed it a issue.

Let's hope things keep rolling that end of town already looks better without the buidlings.

hackettstown townie hackettstown townie
May '15

To answer you questions:

@HT "Who told you CVS was going to back out of the deal. Is that speculation or do you have it on fact?"

Complete fact, it was said by a CVS attorney during a planning board meeting.

@HT "I did take the time to read over the many posts and most are yours but I don't see anything about that."

If you truly read over all the posts, you would of seen it, it is literally talked about in the second post on this actual thread. You may want to do some more reading.

@HT " Also you say CVS would have benefited tremendously from a detention basin based on what, your opinion, there opinion, who's. "

Again, talked about by a few different engineers, including our town engineer during the planning board meetings on the topic and also discussed on here.

@HT "Now that the properties being developed it a issue. "

Like I have said multiple times, on here and to you, with the development of the property they are raising a huge low area of property, which will cause water which used to run onto the property to be pushed onto the homes unless we are careful. I know many many people who have been bringing this issue to the towns attention and it has fallen on deaf ears for years, so why should I waste my time with that? My pursuit has been that this development does not make the situation worse and in fact makes the situation better like they are required to do.

Darrin Darrin
May '15

You're really getting quite good at this although the reading for extra credit bit was a bit snarky :>)

My point is a potential compromise was I thought the slab area, if left alone or turfed would be re-developed during the final construction so the value of the turf was for about a year. Therefore, if one traded this for some future longer-term benefit, that it's might be a win-win decision where you give up a year of benefit to gain many years of other benefit. Although the first shot should always be holding feet to the commitment fire for benefit and principle. Any compromise would be theirs to offer unless you had a great one in mind that benefits you and makes their development life easier too.

mistergoogle mistergoogle
May '15

Re: Bergen Tool- CVS approved

Mr.G I don't have to Google images of CVS, there is are a countless ones in every town around here. Please point me to the eclectic one?? Yes there are towns that actually enforce their zoning laws, and make CVS and other developers comply to certain standards. Unlike this town, and many surrounding towns where zoning laws are torn up, and rewritten with variance after variance to suit developers. To say that they like to incorporate old buildings is beyond absurd. In the past year alone they have knocked down Bergen Tool, Lockwood Tavern, and Pals Cabin, just in North NJ. Larison's turkey is the next one they would like to knock down. Oh look I found a pretty Mcdonalds, I guess with your logic that must mean they are eclectic and like to to preserve historic buildings also. Who knew!

Denis Denis
May '15

so Denis, what should the owners of Bergen Tool, Lockwood Tavern, Pals Cabin and Larisons be allowed to do with their property? They shouldn't be allowed to sell it? They should be stuck owning that land and have nothing developed on it?

darwin darwin
May '15

Didn't mean to be snarky MG. HT seems to be focused on calling out fact or speculation, and said that they read the comments yet couldn't find it mentioned. It is very well mentioned in more places then one, including the second post. it is also the second time they have made mention of most of the posts being mine which I am not sure if it is meant to be a insult, or what other point would be to keep mentioning that. I am wondering who HT really is.

The problem with your thought, is within that year you are giving up, you are compromising the well being of the surrounding homes. The engineer was clear when he said this had to be done for runoff reasons if retention was not going to be included.

Darrin Darrin
May '15

You cannot really blame CVS for dropping bergen tool, that would be on the land owner. He originally bought the property knowing he was to keep the front brick building. He let it go to disrepair (more so then when he bought it) and then asked to tear it down, before even having any real plans for its' replacement. Heck, there is still no real plans for its' replacement, he just wanted it gone!

Darrin Darrin
May '15

Geez Denis, give it a rest. If you like, you can believe all CVS buildings are cookie cutter big box designs.

mistergoogle mistergoogle
May '15

Darwin that is an entirely different debate. My point was clear that to say CVS likes to preserve old buildings is absurd in light of what has happened in the local area over the past year.

Denis Denis
May '15

Denis doesn't the area drive what someone is willing to compromise from a development standpoint. The Bergen Tool site has been sitting vacant and unused for years on the Main Steet, just as Larisons Turkey Farm has been. I don't know where Pals Cabin is and Lockwood Tavern I think is in Byram. I'm glad Bergen Tool has moved forward and can benefit the town and residents. Larisons look terrible and it's sad that such a visible area in Chester is a eyesore, just like Bergen was.

People don't always like change and I'm sure there were people complaining when these structures that or coming down now were going up, or maybe not because there were less people. It's kind of sad how no one see the positive and only talks about the negative. After reviewing all the posts its seems a small handful of people even post on this subject and it tends to be negative in general. Hopefully, when all this over and the project is done everyone detractors and supporters will be happy with the outcome.

hackettstown townie hackettstown townie
May '15

townie, yes the area does drive what is done from a compromise point of view, agree 100%! Some towns enforce zoning laws some rewrite them. Does nothing to negate my original point. I can assure you that once the project is done, including all the apartments there will still be detractors.

Denis Denis
May '15

Re: Bergen Tool- CVS approved

eclectic means "deriving ideas, style, or taste from a broad and diverse range of sources." I think CVS does a better job that most chain pharmacies when it comes to this.

"My point was clear that to say CVS likes to preserve old buildings is absurd in light of what has happened in the local area over the past year." Chillax. I said they have done it in other places not that the "like" to do it. I am not sure what they like, but they have incorporated older buildings, not preserved, and have incorporated area looks in their buildings. As far as how much Mikey D's does this, I do not know, but the pic you posted looks like an excellent MickeyD's.

As far as images, what can I say but to jfg cvs pictures. It's not hard. I will take a shot to help you get through this. OK, there's the "apothecary" I posted before. Now try this one from Florida.

Are both Pals Cabin and Lockwood Tavern going to be CVS's with modern designs?

In fact, the Byram Lockwood design supposedly will "harken" to older buildings like ours, but like ours, I think the jury is out until you see either better plans or renderings. This Bryam one is part of a bigger shopping center and while the town planners are attempting to "build a village," that sounds like a bit of an overreach. But they certainly are not cookie cutter boxes if you push them on it.

The West Orange Pals design I can not find. I am sorry your favorite haunts are coming down but when the business can not support the building and the new owners find it more profitable to start anew, and the people can't support historic reclaims of the buildings, only the town planners can make the best of these new developments.

I would rather have seen CVS use the Bergen Tool Building, I still can not imagine that it was that far gone and it seems to fit the bill: a big box with lots of windows. I would gather the developer had a lot to do with the decision. But if it has to go, I would rather something that is not like the cruddy stucco modern monstrosities across the street.

mistergoogle mistergoogle
May '15

Re: Bergen Tool- CVS approved

A CVS in a movie house

mistergoogle mistergoogle
May '15

Ht, positive points don't make for a lasting conversation. Points of concern do though.

There has been many positive points made, they just do not take off into conversation, same goes for most other topics on this forum

Darrin Darrin
May '15

I don't need a definition of eclectic Mr. G, but I think you do. More than 6000 CVS stores across the nation, and you can find a few unusual styles on Google, congrats, but hardly proves anything. I could do the same for any large chain, as I did with McDonalds. There are countless CVS in the area if there designs are "often eclectic" surely you can come up with at least one?? I can think of numerous ones in the area of the top of my head, and not one would fit that description. You also said "often they incorporate old building" again I can show you plenty of cases in the area where quite the opposite happened, as I did. So again, show an instance in this area where you can back up what you say. As far as a business not supporting the building, that was not the case with Pals, or Lockwood, and a attempted subject diversion from your bogus CVS claims.

Denis Denis
May '15

You cannot really blame CVS for dropping bergen tool, that would be on the land owner. He originally bought the property knowing he was to keep the front brick building. He let it go to disrepair (more so then when he bought it)

Darrin that is not even close to being accurate. This article sums up the timeline pretty well:

2003 building went vacant
2010 zoning plan required building be kept
2011 building sold
2012 developer said it couldn't be saved.

So he only owned it for a yr before saying it couldn't be saved. How much more could he have let it go into disrepair in a year? I would say the majority of the rotting of the building occurred before he bought it, no?

http://www.lehighvalleylive.com/warren-county/express-times/index.ssf/2012/05/hackettstowns_bergen_tool_site.html

Darwin Darwin
May '15

How do you figure it is not accurate? Based on your approved timeline seems pretty accurate to me. You think the day that he bought the property was the day he looked at it? I am sure he did months if not years of research on the property before purchasing it, especially considering the extent of issues with this site, ANY developer wouldn't of just jumped in.

So the question is, if that year did not do the damage as you say, why did the developer purchase the property knowing the front building was to stay? We can agree to that right? When purchased the zoning ordinance was for the front building to stay.

The way I see it, he purchased the property knowing he would get out of the building having to stay.

The way I see it, he spent his time trying to get out of it and did not make any effort to try to save it. I mean how hard would of it been to tarp the roof so no further "damage" occurred while you figured out what you were going to do?

I don't know if you took a look at that front building while they were tearing it down or not, but it was a solid building, it could of been reused had the developer WANTED to, but he got out of it, sorry I wasn't aware of the situation when it happened, I have only been told how those meetings went down, and that some sort of presentation was put together to make the building look in horrible shape.

Darrin Darrin
May '15

Keep in mind that its not another new CVS moving in. The CVS from Mansfeild is moving across town.

H'townian H'townian
May '15

Re: Bergen Tool- CVS approved

"My point was clear that to say CVS likes to preserve old buildings is absurd in light of what has happened in the local area over the past year."
Actually Denis, to use your own argument, with "More than 6000 CVS stores (7,600 actually) across the nation, and you can " look at the local area " hardly proves anything."

"As far as a business not supporting the building, that was not the case with Pals." Actually expenses and taxes were exactly the reason the PALS owner(s) said they were throwing in the towel.

Here's a CVS design drawn from a broad range of taste :>)

mistergoogle mistergoogle
May '15

Darrin according to the posts I saw there was presentation from a architect retained by Preserve Historic Hackettstown (?), not sure who this is and a report prepared by developers architect. From what I could read in the questions wasn't could the building be saved it was the enormous money to save it and the fact that it wouldn't be economical. Can you really blame someone for not wanting to spend money on something they won't recover?

I would be the same as any homeowner putting a $2 million dollar renovation on a home in a $400,000 dollar market, how can you justify it? You can't is the answer. Things change and we all need to be realist. Constantly, dredging without looking forward doesn't accomplish anything.

hackettstown townie hackettstown townie
May '15

Anymore pictures of the West Prospect Street flooding? Thats the highest level I have ever seen Trout Brook.

consumer.
May '15

Re: Bergen Tool- CVS approved

here's a picture of Trout Brook, looking more like the Muscenetcong River, flowing through my yard on East Baldwin....The flow then ran down Main towards the Bergen area.

deviljet
May '15

That is not the Brook itself, but it spilled it's bank where it runs parallel to North Main, above Hamilton Drive and the overflow comes through my neighborhood.

deviljet
May '15

He couldn't touch the building until he closed on the purchase. Also what inspection of the building did the zoning board do prior to saying it had to stay?

article from 2010, prior to the Planning Zone requiring the building to be saved where the mayor is quoted as saying ""When is it going to end?" asked Mayor Michael Lavery. "That place is falling apart. We can't sit here for another two years and go through this again."

http://www.lehighvalleylive.com/warren-county/index.ssf?/base/news-2/1273659723102370.xml&coll=3

But whatever, you have it in your mind that Rice is this big bad wolf in the storyline. Find me where the TOWN inspected the building prior to saying it had to stay. Cause that I can't find. So who is to say the building was restorable when the zoning board said it had to stay? I can't even find the vote from that meeting. So you had at least 3 people with no construction background say the building had to stay, most likely out of sentimental rationale rather than economic or logical rationale

darwin darwin
May '15

And yes Rice was trying to purchase the site for years.

"In 2007, the same company submitted a conceptual plan for 25,000 square feet of commercial space in the front of the 11-acre downtown site and 60 homes in the back"

the town rejected it which delayed the purchase of the property. So if you think about it, in reality the town was the reason for the building coming down. Might have been saved it he was allowed to puchase the site in 2007 and didn't have to wait until 2011.

http://www.lehighvalleylive.com/warren-county/express-times/index.ssf/2011/06/bergen_tool_factory_in_hackett.html

darwin darwin
May '15

@HT "Can you really blame someone for not wanting to spend money on something they won't recover?"

ABSOLUTLY I CAN.....because he purchased the property KNOWING he was to keep the front building. He agreed to that when he purchased the property, he was well aware of the ordinance, it was not like a suprise.

And Darwin, i dont care if the building was reduced to a pile of bricks by the time he did anything, the fact is that he knew he was to keep it when he started the project.

Darrin Darrin
May '15

No sense in discussing it, its a done deal, move on and look to the future

Darrin Darrin
May '15

the fact is the ordiance in 2010 was doomed to begin with. Again the site was failing before it was purchased and therefore the ordiance statign it had to stay was not logical and should never have been passed.

http://www.lehighvalleylive.com/warren-county/express-times/index.ssf/2011/02/water-weakened_beams_caused_ro.html

Hackettstown Business Improvement Director David Rucki, while not involved in creating the redevelopment plan, said Wednesday's collapse is a signal that a developer is needed soon to make the plan a reality.


"It's just a reminder that we need to find a suitable solution for that property. The sooner, the better," Rucki said, adding the site is not just stagnant but now dangerous.

"Look at it," he said. "It's falling apart."


2010 prior to the ordiance being passed, stating the site was failing apart:
http://www.nj.com/warrenreporter/index.ssf/2010/05/hackettstown_council_agrees_to.html

Mayor Michael Lavery was skeptical of the decision to reexamine the ordinance. “There are consequences if we just sit on this thing; we cannot preserve that site as it was,” he said. “While I want to see the commercial development of that property and housing component minimized, we have been looking at this for as long as I’ve been here and there is no plan that is going to be perfect. That place is falling apart, it’s an embarrassment when you go down the hill and it’s the first thing you see when you go to Hackettstown. I would be for trying to approve this thing if we can – we can’t sit here for another two years and then come back and go through this again.”

darwin darwin
May '15

Re: Bergen Tool- CVS approved

Denis, not sure why we are arguing over the word eclectic; it is my opinion that CVS designs are “Not bad, not the worst. CVS designs are eclectic and while they do have some modern basic box store types, often they incorporate old building or coordinate design with surrounds. Seems like they are trying to fit "our town" versus coordinating with the stucco strips across the street.”

Hey, it’s an opinion yet at the same time I am guessing that the other strip stores and apartments may not follow suit. Additionally I have no doubts that not only could the Bergen building have been reused but that CVS has shown their willingness to do so for other sites. More so than most chains and box stores. I am guessing this was a developer decision to ease their development of the entire site.

“To say that they like to incorporate old buildings is beyond absurd.” Like, no I didn’t say that; I said often they actually do it and therefore most certainly not absurd. Plus even the new buildings have a lot of variety in style --- i.e. electric. I’ll start posting some of those, but think Darin gonna need a new thread… The fact that everything you see in NJ looks the same to you does not necessarily detract from that. It may just show that NJ planners are shoddy.

Your statement “My point was clear that to say CVS likes to preserve old buildings is absurd in light of what has happened in the local area over the past year” is actually absurd in your own words. With “more than 6000 CVS stores across the nation (7,600 actually), and you can find a few” that don't in NJ “hardly proves anything.”

Also, your statement “as far as a business not supporting the building, that was not the case with Pals” except that the Pals Cabin owners stated they were selling due to rising utility and tax bills not supporting their level of business, a business which they have actually morphed and migrated to a partnership with Fairchild Market in Roseland.

You’re not satisfied with CVS designs showing a diverse range of sources on a national level proving CVS buildings are diverse, OK. Here’s one from Princeton incorporating an older downtown building. And here’s a story on the Sparta re-use of an older building. http://www.nytimes.com/2003/09/14/realestate/in-the-region-new-jersey-converting-old-supermarkets-for-other-uses.html

If Darin’s picture is correct our version will have a colonial look with pitched roofs, dorms, trim, etc. A little better than a big box and much better than the Stiger Street Strip of Stucco (is that why the sidewalks are pink stucco look?).

Something needed to be developed on that site and I think the CVS portion is a better option than a whole lot of things that could have happened. I don’t know that the rest of the strip development will be and I think the apartments are just a bad idea. I have a deep distrust of the developer pulling the wool over the town with shortcuts for profit.

And yes, CVS uses a wide variety in their building designs, often reusing older buildings. Some might call this eclectic. Others may say absurd.

mistergoogle mistergoogle
May '15

What did the town get in return for allowing the zoning requirement to be overturned?

Do you think there may of been a deduction on final cost of the property because of the requirement?

Darrin Darrin
May '15

"What did the town get in return for allowing the zoning requirement to be overturned?"

they got the site to be developed on, the got a ratable business coming in.

He said he's in favor of redevelopment because the town would have another taxable property and an improved gateway at the town's western edge.

"Now we got a chance to get somebody who wants to do something," DiMaio said. "And nobody can find anything historical about it, anyway."

http://www.lehighvalleylive.com/warren-county/express-times/index.ssf/2013/01/hackettstown_town_council_clea.html

darwin darwin
May '15

"Do you think there may of been a deduction on final cost of the property because of the requirement?"

He paid $1.1million for the site.

darwin darwin
May '15

"they got the site to be developed on, the got a ratable business coming in. "

The property was already purchased and owned, so business were coming either way there was no gain for the town in allowing the zoning to be overturned, only the developer gained.

And you are still missing my point. It's much like buying a car that you know needs new tires and then going back to the dealer and complaining the car needs new tires. You knew it existed when purchased, you should of figured out if it was financially feasible before purchasing the property, unless of course you purchased the property knowing you could get out of it.

The original plan had 60 homes in the back of the property, I am sure that's why the idea got turned down. So he was taking development ideas to the planning board before even owning the property?

The property has been collecting taxes as it sits, heck he paid the backed taxes. Do you think our homeowners taxes will go down with this addition?

Darrin Darrin
May '15

Re: Bergen Tool- CVS approved

deviljet, as an addition to your photo

Darrin Darrin
May '15

Mr.G, The lockwood tavern design will "harken' to the old building styles, the jury is not out for me. They will not be able to replace a historic 200 year old building with a faux building style. That's what they said about the Central house, but the new building falls far short of that. With the multitude of CVS stores in the area, the two examples you cite are them moving into an old Acme, hardly a building of any significance or character, and a store in Princeton. Princeton, good luck knocking down a building there and putting up a cheap box store. There are towns were they know they will face a losing battle, and other towns they know the local politicians will roll over for them. Princeton being the former, and Hackettstown the latter. I don't think you and I will ever agree on this, but I do agree with you that the apratments are a bad idea, and I share your deep mistrust of the developer.

Denis Denis
May '15

Re: Bergen Tool- CVS approved

Actually I do agree with your last tome. The Lockwood Tavern had a beautiful interior exposing hand hewn big lumber, etc. I can't imagine the exterior is close to the original but I can't find any historical pictures. Even in the interior, much was gutted and faked like the stone pillars, brick facades, etc. (the plugs with no exposed wires indicates new). Remember to the true devotee, most often exposed beams is not really restoration (but I like it). You can't even be sure the exposing the beams is historic, could have been lathe and plaster.

Barone, the owner, has wanted to tear it down for years, why I don't know. But when the owner desires it, unless you, the town, or someone wants to buy it, tough noogies. Myself, I would never get a historic marking since it would restrict me from doing things I want to do. Don't get me wrong, I love old, have always lived in old, but I am not into 100% restoration. I like some new stuff.

I agree whatever CVS does will pale in comparison to that interior although might even look better than the Lockwood exterior which to all intents was modern. But I am sure never to you and your memories. My point is compared to most big box or large chain concerns, at least CVS makes an effort and actually has some differences from building to building.

Hey, as far as the Acme, hey they did it; who are you to argue whether the existing building is worthy, at least they did it. Re: Princeton: yeah, that's the point. If it really bothers CVS, they could have rolled it a few blocks up 206 and put in a cookie jar. It's the town that decides via zoning what is OK to do. One of the town's I lived in in PA was nothing special, but it was old and quaint. It was not any richer than Hackettstown yet they maintained a very coordinated look n feel for downtown and nobody got a variance over that. You didn't like it, well skip the town and head for the strip in the township and thank you very much.

So I am not saying "hats off to CVS," they're not Charlie Brown's. Of course, they are not bankrupt either. So, let's go with "hat's tipped," appreciate the effort, could be worse and keep trying.

Keeping on the theme, here is one last CVS that seems distinctive and is in an existing building..

mistergoogle mistergoogle
May '15

I see historic and old being two separate things. My 1970 Olds 442 is historic, whereas the Bergen tool building and myself are merely old, both predating 1970.

eapos eapos
May '15

Darrin states. "So he was taking development ideas to the planning board before even owning the property?"

This is a common practice amongst developers. They go to the Zoning, Planning and Town Council to see what could be done with the property prior to putting in a bid. Sometimes they even go into a contract that stipulates upon approval of town.

Darrin states. "The property has been collecting taxes as it sits, heck he paid the backed taxes. Do you think our homeowners taxes will go down with this addition?"

Obviously they have not been paying taxes as it sat if Rice paid the back taxes. Also why would homeowners taxes go down? That does not make any sense at all!

teenie teenie
May '15

Darwin good job of illustrating the history in regards to when the developer became the owner. Darrin you can't be implying that the developer would have spent money maintaining the property prior to owning it or are you? No one would do this.

Teenie I think you hit it on the nail. Rice was probably a contract purchaser trying to determine what could be done with the site. In reading through many of the posts it seems that the zoning was eventually changed to allow for the development going on now, but after many years. However, it does seem odd why someone would close on something without knowing what you could do. I did google Bergen Tool and it looks like they went bankrupt, sadly.

hackettstown townie hackettstown townie
May '15

"The property was already purchased and owned, so business were coming either way there was no gain for the town in allowing the zoning to be overturned, only the developer gained."


Thats not true. It took 8 years sell the property. It's not like there were people lined up to purchase it. So whose to say if Jade HAD to keep the building they would have developed on the site? They may have just sat on the site and waited a few years to sell it. There was no guarantee business was coming if that building had to stay.

Darwin Darwin
May '15

Mr. G you don't know why Barone wanted to tear it down for years? I don't think it wouldn't be a stretch to say he was looking to cash out and reap a nice profit. I agree an owner should be able to do what ever he wants with his property, but if he bought the property under certain zoning restrictions, he should not expect the town to totally rewrite the zoning laws, and grant a multitude of variances to line his pockets, which is pretty much what happened. Nice CVS in the picture there, like I said point me to one in the area that meets your eclectic definition. Judging by the palm tree's I would say you gave up on that idea, but I'm sure you tried your best.

Denis Denis
May '15

We don't need a over-priced chain drug store and condominiums , we need a IGA supermarket and a ball field with woods in the back. They changed the zoning from light industrial to welcome to hell .... the problem is that Mr Google doesn't know when to shut up. " Duas tantum res anxius optat, panem et circenses "

fact not fiction
May '15

@teenie "Obviously they have not been paying taxes as it sat if Rice paid the back taxes. Also why would homeowners taxes go down? That does not make any sense at all!"

That was the point.....the developer is paying the property taxes as it sits, prior to anything being built, hence, we do not NEED buildings on the site to get paid the taxes on the site as some keep saying we need to develop to make money. Sure taxes will go up, but as it sits, it is not a looser for the town. Especially now that it is cleaned up, the town needs to take their time and carefully decide phase 2 with the benefit of our town in mind.

@HT "Darrin you can't be implying that the developer would have spent money maintaining the property prior to owning it or are you? No one would do this"

No, I said after purchasing the property he did not do anything to keep the building from getting any worse. I did not mention before.

The point I am trying to make is quite simple, the developer purchased the property knowing he would get out of the front building ordinance.

@Darwin "Thats not true"

Again, how do you figure? The property was sold and backed taxes were paid, that's a win for the town, but anyone who bought the property would of had to do this. The developer purchased the property knowing the town wanted to keep the front building. Within one year he had the town going back on what they wanted with no trade off gain to the town. For example, the town could of asked for more water control, or for more open space, not just taken it as a freebie.

@Darwin "So whose to say if Jade HAD to keep the building they would have developed on the site? "

Do you think they purchased it planning to sit on it? I don't really think that is reality, especially considering he had already made connections with CVS about the site and had submitted phase two plans prior to purchase. I would think most developers will not put their name on a site, especially one with such a environmental issue, and allow it to sit, he is looking for a return on investment. Do remember there were "due dates" for the environmental clean up classification on this site, and they were expiring soon.

Darrin Darrin
May '15

Re: Bergen Tool- CVS approved

Denis, I don't disagree with you, again. But I do live in the real world.

So who cares why he wanted to sell and of course he would like to profit. I think anyone can totally expect towns to grant variances, or rewrite zoning. After all, it happens all the time. Bear in mind I agree that many times, like this one, they shouldn't have without better considerations.

I posted two NJ examples so far, you just said they didn't count because one was from a town with moneyed, zoning savvy, stylish people and one, while eclectic and using an old building both, fell beneath your artistic quality level. I will find more, but you need to buy HL a round if I do your work.

But as a freebie, here's the CVS we all wanted, why doesn't Ray Rice and CVS just building the CVS shown. It's eclectic.

mistegoogle mistegoogle
May '15

The funny thing is CVS and the Brick building coming down have nothing to do with each other. The bergen tool building sat on phase 2 property, property which still has no agreed plans, and no plans that have been brought to public meeting. There is plans to see at the construction office of what he would like to do for phase 2, but they do not currently meet the requirements of our town engineer to even be allowed a spot at the planning board.

CVS is approved and will be built on the traffic light side of the property, and the property has been subdivided such that CVS will own their own block of land.

Currently the ONLY thing agreed to for the property is CVS in the traffic light corner, and the buildings must come down and property fully cleaned for CVS to be granted a certificate of occupancy. Everything else is essentially a pipe dream, as well as still open to opinion and concern.

Correct me if I am wrong, but even the 3 acres open space is a "ordinance" much like the front building was to stay was a ordinance. So if the town overturned the one, whats to keep them from overturning the other?

Darrin Darrin
May '15

Absolutely nothing stands in the way of a variance except the town planners and a whole lot of lawyers if you disagree.

Luckily there is much talk about such things so if you think it's coming: prepare, prepare, prepare. One of the first foundation steps is to create a common group of interested parties; the closer the better. Townships tend to listen to voters, less to outside "agitators." But even so, if the going looks tough, if you can, then hire a front man to be the legal spokesman speaking legal and threatening the possibility of more.

http://real-estate-law.freeadvice.com/real-estate-law/zoning/object_neighbor_zoning.htm

mistergoogle mistergoogle
May '15

Mr. G, I was only pointing out his motivation since you said "he has wanted to tear it down for years, why I don't know." I wasn't passing a judgement on his motivation. I would disagree with your assumption "I think anyone can totally expect towns to grant variances, or rewrite zoning." If that is the expectation, then they serve very little purpose, and are only worth the paper they are printed on. Back to my original point I challenged you to cite some local examples of CVS's eclectic building style. With 7,600 to choose from there must be some in the local area that fit the bill. Your last example had palm tree's in the picture, so I would say fail.

Denis Denis
May '15

Open space does not mean it will be used by residents. I personally feel it should be a park but you cannot force any property owner to make a park on their property. I also have no problem having Condos/Townhouses or apartments and single family homes. Would like to see more adult living places. Seems the ones in town we have always have waiting lists. That would be a win.

Anyway lets get it done. Its such an eyesore.

teenie teenie
May '15

There are no palm trees in Sparta or Princeton but they are both in NJ and neither is a typical CVS box store.

Like I said, I will find you more but if all you're going to do is disqualify them based on your personal "artistic" opinion, we already have your answer ---- none. But I did find you two so far.

Zoning sets the stage for development; there is always the possibility for variance therefore anyone can expect a variance. I think this is a good system since everyone should have a recourse to work with zoning for the best outcome for everybody, but variances should be the exception, not the rule.

One study I saw from North Carolina which covered a good number of municipalities, large and small, indicated a 72% approval rating which either means, you are right ---- very little purpose, or it's one heck of an understandable and ez-to-use system so only those who will succeed enter an application. Needs more research and interpretation to know.

mistergoogle mistergoogle
May '15

You can't find me more if you haven't found any to begin with. You said "CVS designs are eclectic" I said with all the CVS stores in the area show me one. You came up with 4 images. Two of which included palm tree's so not likely around these parts, and where stores were placed in structures that already existed. One in a movie theatre, and one in a existing building in Princeton that no doubt precedes the existence of CVS by decades ( good luck knocking down that building and putting up a box store in Princeton ) As a matter of fact all of the images ( movie theater not included )precede the existence of CVS. It's not a question of artistic interpretation, you have yet to come close to pointing out a Eclectic CVS design anywhere around here. I am sure you will reinterpt this somehow to fit your narrative, I think the facts speak for themselves. My typing finger is getting bored, and I don't think I can convince it to continue this circular endeavor.

Denis Denis
May '15

Re: Bergen Tool- CVS approved

Maybe this might qualify as an eclectic building. The same experiment of dueling pharmacies across town that I feel failed.

THE MORP
May '15

Re: Bergen Tool- CVS approved

Actually, let me remind a third time. I said: " CVS designs are eclectic and while they do have some modern basic box store types, often they incorporate old buildings or coordinate design with surrounds." Key words: eclectic, some modern, often old or surround coordinated.

Thus the Sparta and Princeton count as incorporating old buildings: old being somewhat equivalent to existing. Those are the only two I have posted for NJ, however, each design you mention is not cookie cutter, thus eclectic IMHO (do you want the definition again.

But since you can't find them, some more NJ specimens of CVS's eclectic building designs, eclectic meaning "things taken from many different sources."

First --- modern: CVS Chatham

mistergoogle mistergoogle
May '15

Re: Bergen Tool- CVS approved

Next CVS Cherry Hill, modern again with a twist.

mistergoogle mistergoogle
May '15

Re: Bergen Tool- CVS approved

How about a little wave from CVS Shipbottom

mistergoogle mistergoogle
May '15

Re: Bergen Tool- CVS approved

Maybe a little factory look (old factory building this one)

mistergoogle mistergoogle
May '15

You're right Denis you and MG are going around in circles. Who really cares about any other CVS. The point he was trying to make is THIS CVS won't be a cookie cutter box brick building. The architect tried to make it look like it belongs in town and match the building along main st. They didn't want it to look like the strip mall across the street. Is it going to like the greatest design building, no of course not. But the irony is it will look better than the plain brick rectangle Bergen tool building some were sad to see teared down. So architectural wise it's an improvement on the site. The reality is if CVS were to move it to the Bergen Tool building it would have looked awful.

Darwin Darwin
May '15

Denis - Your view is myopic, and if those places aren't within 30 feet of your home that's one thing. But they're not even in other states which shows Mr G's point is apt.

Darrin - "CVS will own their own block of land". What do you mean "will" as in future tense? The subdivision is already accomplished and the sale and deed are already filed. It's done.

THE MORP - They may have dueled, but they're owned by the exact same company which means one prevailed over the other. That situation and the drug store rivalry across many state borders and the Hackettstown specific locations have special circumstances that don't exactly translate to the Bergen property. Keep being concerned and involved, but I think the idea of concentrating on the design at hand will be the most effective.


@Teenie "Open space does not mean it will be used by residents. I personally feel it should be a park but you cannot force any property owner to make a park on their property"

That's exactly what the ordinance is, usable open space. The town did exactly what you are saying cannot be done. I believe this was done because there is a ball field on the property that many residents were allowed to use for years.

@Teenie " also have no problem having Condos/Townhouses or apartments and single family homes."

Thats crazy, this area of town cannot support the amount of traffic that comes through it now. Our schools are already busting at their seems. A huge apartment complex was already approved for bilby road, and yet you are okay with adding more to this already bad situation? That is the last thing our town needs, and it has been mentioned at a few town meetings that they want the housing component minimized.

@Teenie "Anyway lets get it done. Its such an eyesore."

It is? Looks like a open field of land now, big whoop, I hope the town takes their time and carefully and wisely chooses what to consider for phase 2.

GC "What do you mean "will" as in future tense?"

I was not 100% sure if cvs closed on the property so I used the word will as to not pass false info. I know they were holding off until they were sure the developer would hold up to his end of the bargain, that was very apparent.

Darrin Darrin
May '15

Re: Bergen Tool- CVS approved

Ah Denis, all becomes clear when you say CVS is on the other corner. No wonder the developer would rather start anew given anything beyond a big box affair would add expense to restoration plus NYC-style lofts with huge windows probably not a great Hcktwn apartment consumer draw.

However, CVS continues on with it's eclectic builds. Here's a special version for tornado alley.

mistergoogle mistergoogle
May '15

Re: Bergen Tool- CVS approved

Here's a CVS built in a previous Hooter's location trying to blend in with the existing building.

mistergoogle mistergoogle
May '15

Re: Bergen Tool- CVS approved

And the new CVS drive-through designed especially for inner city locations like Baltimore to blend in with the neighborhood. eclectic!

mistergoogle mistergoogle
May '15

Darrin you know the ballfield was private property right? Darrin reverse the situation and your the property owner. You'd want to be dictated to and told that you have to address problems you didn't create. Why is your backyard not acceptable for a detention basin versus the Bergen property? I just fail to see how one property is obligated to address a problem that has existed for years?

hackettstown townie hackettstown townie
May '15

The usable open space was a compromise to changing the zoning from Light Manufacturing to a Mixed Uses zone. The planning board and town council spent tons of time putting together a "Good Plan" together for "Our Town". The usable open space will add value to the community and the developing that will be done on that property. If the property owner doesn't want to keep the ordinance as it stands then the zone should just be changed back to Light Manufacturing zone. IMO. If the developer gets what he wants than just do away with the town planning board and zoning laws and let the flood gates open to give everyone what they want.

THE MORP
May '15

Meant Darrin not Denis in that first pgraph five threads up.

HT: First there's the laws
- zoning laws
- storm water management laws
- other building regulations

Much of what Darrin discusses are covered there including detention basins. Most is covered above but the law is clear: less harm for new developments.

Then there's the variances. Normally, if your town government has it's head screwed on correctly, variances are only given in return for some other benefit. That may be as lame as the development itself for say, innocuous and non-contentious variances out to some real quid-pro-quo for a major zoning variance like residential in light industry or vice-versa.

Amazingly as MORP says, that's what happened.

mistergoogle mistergoogle
May '15

Darrin, If you are going to quote me at least finish the paragraph!! If you noticed I would like adult living! Also usable open space can be used for anything. For example it can be a park for the apartments going up.

Darrin states, "Thats crazy, this area of town cannot support the amount of traffic that comes through it now. Our schools are already busting at their seems. A huge apartment complex was already approved for bilby road, and yet you are okay with adding more to this already bad situation? That is the last thing our town needs, and it has been mentioned at a few town meetings that they want the housing component minimized"

Nothing crazy about it! A study was already done that there would be minimal impact. I know you don't believe it! Like I said I would rather see se3nior or adult housing anyway. There is a need for it.

Darrin states, "It is? Looks like a open field of land now, big whoop, I hope the town takes their time and carefully and wisely chooses what to consider for phase 2."

Its not an open field. Its a pile of rubble with another building still standing. You would be happy with that?

The developer will get housing in there with the town dictating how much and open space requirements. Be prepared there will be negotiations. Where the town will have to give some and the developer will have to give some. No one ever gets everything they want in development. Town nor the developer. It all has to do with money. No one wants to go to court and spend money to fight it out there. Its a lose lose situation for both parties.

teenie teenie
May '15

"then the zone should just be changed back to Light Manufacturing zone. IMO."

I agree with holding any developer to the zoning and appropriate regulations. But back to a Manufacturing site?? This isn't 1957 any more where plants and peoples houses were next to each other. We're a more mobile society. Any Manufacturing can go out to Bilby road. If the zoning needs to be adjusted again, set it to strictly retail/office. Otherwise you get some company with 24 x 7 shifts and they keep you up all night with the lights and noise. And with Light Manufacturing zoning they don't need any variance and you wouldn't be able to stop it. Let's not throw out the baby with the bath water.


@HT "Why is your backyard not acceptable for a detention basin versus the Bergen property?"

Because the pipe in question does not run in my property, it runs in the bergen property and existed when the property was purchased meaning the buyer must of known about it.

@HT "I just fail to see how one property is obligated to address a problem that has existed for years?"

I thought we cleared that up when we posted the runoff laws and requirements? It's much like just about everyone has told me on here....shoulda done your research before purchasing. I have said it a hundred times, the bergen tool property is one of the lowest (in elevation) properties around. For years water has run that way. The town did not decided the topography of this area. By law the developer cannot make any current situation worse, and he must actually make it better. If he did his due diligence before purchasing the property, he would of known of the condition prior to purchase, not saying that he didn't know, but it is something by law that he must deal with. If I wanted to raise my property as to push the water I get onto my neighbors property I am sure I would be required to do some sort of drainage improvements as well, especially if I was about to convert 90% of my property to impervious coverage.

@teenie "If you are going to quote me at least finish the paragraph!!"

I apologize for cutting it off, it was not done on purpose. But I do agree that senior housing would be better then apartments IMO. We do not need to bring housing into town that welcomes a rotating type living, more permanent housing would be better I would think. But as of right now 99 apartments is what was requested.

@teenie "a study was already done that there would be minimal impact. I know you don't believe it!"

I have heard a study was done, but I have not been able to get my hands on it, I am VERY interested in how 99 apartments would not affect our current school condition. But take into consideration the added traffic to a already bottle necked and problematic area too when you consider any housing. Also HMUA, and other utility services must be taken into account, it is not just schools.

@teenie "Its not an open field. Its a pile of rubble with another building still standing. You would be happy with that? "

It wont be in a few more weeks, the developer is obligated to take down the remaining building (currently undergoing asbestos abatement, which is why it is still up) and clean up and properly grade the property for CVS to get a CO. The stuff we are talking about is apparent to Phase 2 which is still up in the air, right now CVS will be built and the remainder of the property converted to turf in the meantime as per the resolution.

@GC "Otherwise you get some company with 24 x 7 shifts and they keep you up all night with the lights and noise."

How is that any different then Quick check being 24 hour, or the fact that they take deliveries all hours of the day, block route 46 traffic with semis backing in (something they were never suppose to have) and the dumpster truck comes at 5am and slams the dumpster multiple times a week? I would think that CVS may try to get approval to be 24 hour, as a lot of CVS's are. But being their location and being so close to residents I do not think it should be a given option for them.

Darrin Darrin
May '15

Re: Bergen Tool- CVS approved

CVS eclectic building design extends to their signage and messaging. Note how they go out of their way to fit in for Boston.

mistergoogle mistergoogle
May '15

Re: Bergen Tool- CVS approved

Our this sign offering you to say howdy and clear out those cash drawers.

mistergoogle mistergoogle
May '15

Re: Bergen Tool- CVS approved

Ok Mr G, in appreciation for the time invested by you, I will have to admit that though many are ugly, and garish, you did provide some local examples that would fit the eclectic definition. Kudo's. Personally I find this to be the most eclectic of them all. If they build it here, I will lift my personal boycott.

Denis Denis
May '15

Re: Bergen Tool- CVS approved

Not that this will be the greatest design, but I do commend CVS for at least trying. Funny how Chatham got the weird modern one.

While I have many more NJ sites, I will leave with the signage that means the most to me. Having lost The Golden Skillet, hopefully our CVS will grace us with eclectic messages like this (I know, I probably used eclectic wrong on this one :>)

mistergoogle mistergoogle
May '15

"then the zone should just be changed back to Light Manufacturing zone. IMO."

GC- The property was zoned LM when I bought my property. I did my research before buying and came to terms that all that you listed above could happen with the adjacent property to mine. What I don't want in a boat load of apartments(which I'm sure will include low income housing) next to my property. If a manufacturing plant is next to my property at least it will be employing our community, paying taxes and building American made products. Apartments increase school needs, traffic, police, taxes, etc.

My point is that a zone shouldn't be changed to meet a developers need and keep it zoned as is.

THE MORP
May '15

Isn't too late to change though? Its already zoned a mixed use. This was all changed because Town Council heard from the residents, did a survey via the BID. Its not like they just came in and begged the Town Council to change use for their benefit. Should the Town stick with what its zoned at now? Once again I see the need for senior/adult community here. All the others in town are full and don't put a great stress on our schools. Shouldn't have council thought of the services issue before they zoned it mixed use then? I don't know why residents are so afraid of low income housing. Its not like the whole complex will be that. Its a percentage or the developer can pay the COAH fees to not have a percentage.

Darrin states, "It is? Looks like a open field of land now, big whoop, I hope the town takes their time and carefully and wisely chooses what to consider for phase 2."
then he states this "It wont be in a few more weeks, the developer is obligated to take down the remaining building (currently undergoing asbestos abatement, which is why it is still up) and clean up and properly grade the property for CVS to get a CO. The stuff we are talking about is apparent to Phase 2 which is still up in the air, right now CVS will be built and the remainder of the property converted to turf in the meantime as per the resolution.

Bud you are not making sense. What do you think I was talking about? Phase II also. What I am saying is let them develop it its an eyesore. UGG!

teenie teenie
May '15

The developer Ray Rice has a conceptual plan for a new bustling business center in Long Valley it includes a community center for the residents.

Has the developer even mentioned this as a possibility for Hackettstown? All I heard is apartments/condos and stores and a retention basin for Phase 2 and Phase 3.

pampurr pampurr
May '15

MORP, no, you probably already lost that fight when they changed it for this developer. Would be a huge suit now if they attempted to renege without paying him off for the value plus the profit.

You have to fight these battles on a timely basis.

Darrin, now I got re the buildings positions and the slabs and I can see where you would put a high priority on them meeting their commit. Phase II could be a long way out; just takes a recession to stop all development and construction has yet to bounce back from 2008.

You probably know this but, first, get the original commitment either in writing, transcript, or get the tape for the meeting. They are all taped.

Second, determine the actual person who enforces the commitment sit on them to determine the status and the schedule. If appropriate, monitor and verify.

Third, if enforcer schedule not appropriate or dates are missed, find the people who enforce the enforcer and have all your friends tell them what they think either by mail, phone, or public meeting. Put the public pressure on them once implementation failure is obvious.

I am sure this is what you're doing so good luck.

mistergoogle mistergoogle
May '15

@Teenie "Bud you are not making sense. What do you think I was talking about? Phase II also."

Sorry for any confusion. The first one was in response to your "Its not an open field. Its a pile of rubble with another building still standing. You would be happy with that? " comment, which is not really apparent since you are judging a property which is currently being cleaned up as per CVS phase 1, not developed, which would be phase 2. The only thing that will (as of now) be built on the property is a CVS and the rest of the property is to be converted into turf, the piles of rubble and the remaining building will be gone in a few weeks (as I responded).

@Teenie "What I am saying is let them develop it its an eyesore. UGG!"

A CVS and the rest of the property being converted to grass will be a eyesore? and we should let them hurry up and develop? Really? Now you are confusing me because that makes absolutely no sense. I think as long as the property is cleaned and grading is done and grass is planted, ~~~AS the developer MUST do as per CVS's agreed resolution, there will be no eyesore about it. So what is the rush to develop the remainder of the property? The town should take the time, and be wise about what they allow.

Darrin Darrin
May '15

I have been trying to follow this topic here from day 1 but now i am confused! . That being said i think you people should start to put your emphasis on the other 2 large apartment projects the are still in the planning stages that will effect H'town more than a CVS and its apartments!! With 400 units on Bilby rd and 400 on Kings hwy this town will be a traffic nightmare. There is another project that will cause problems is the expansion of Heath Village! The CVS project should be the least of your concern!

dadof2
May '15

MG, yes, thank you. The commitment is written in the resolution for CVS to develop the property, but I believe it is just written as the buildings are to be removed in their entirety and the remaining property converted to turf.

I will try to get a copy just so I have it, but I know of a few that have a copy too, but great idea. As far as staying on them, that what I have been trying to do, with emails and phone calls to the town engineer for status updates as well as current issues questioned, also expressing my concern that if it is something that may be changed it needs to come back to a planning board meeting open to the public before anything like that is allowed.

Darrin Darrin
May '15

dadof2,

The 400 units on bilby road is already approved, not much you can do about that. As far as a heath village expansion, that may be the adult housing that teenie is looking for! But either way, heath village is located in a less dense area of town, so may not have as much of a negative effect

I am unaware of the current situation of kings highway apartments, but I have not seen anything about it come through the hackettstown planning board as of yet.

If you are confused and have any questions feel free to ask, someone on here will give some sort of answer LOL!

Darrin Darrin
May '15

Kings Highway is not Hackettstown.

Lions Gate is the senior housing, because some of the above people showed up with their pitch forks and torches when a senior development was proposed for Bergen.

And the COAH is happening at Bilby, not Bergen. So why all the FUD about CVS?

The Morp - I understand completely about the apartments and holding the developer to a payout. Concentrate on that because CVS is already split apart and done. But why would you prefer something that could come in 24 x 7 with things Darrin is complaining about once a day that would go on every hour? Sure, I can understand not zoning residential for what you want. But going back to 1957 with industrial?? Why not go retail and it's more like BoA, West Side Hair, and Rita's? If industrial went in that space with CVS sitting in front, the whole area would suffer by having industrial next to residential. Yet space is ready and willing on Bilby for that which won't impact people's homes. You can fight against the apartments without having to resort to bad zoning of industrial.


The point i was trying to make gc was these are things that were not suppose to happen but are apparently allowed to happen anyway. Why will cvs or anything else be any different? Quick check was not designed for a full sized semi to block route 46 traffic and back in twice a day, they were not suppose to have anything bigger then box trucks (same thing cvs said) and i am unaware if our town has noise ordnances or if it is just a level of courtisy for the other stuff.

I am fine with stores, but i would like to see housing eleiminated or as small as possiable.

I just do not want to see the property crammed with everything but the kitchen sink simply because the developer wanted to maximize profit and he is allowed to due to mixed use zoning. This particular location is already under enough traffic congestion.

I could understand why the town changed zoning, they couldent get any buyers interested in the property, but now it has been sold, paid, and almost cleaned, so no reason for rush.

Darrin Darrin
May '15

MisterGoogle- I helped to fight against the zoning change and have fought hard for the usable open space. I was not a fan of having any residential(especially apartments) in the zone. I have been a citizen involve in this project from day one and I stay vigilant on the whole matter. I might not get everything that I would like but I will fight for what I want and what our "Community" wants. I'm guessing most of our community doesn't want higher taxes. More people=Bigger schools+More police+higher traffic+Maxing out our sewer treatment plant=Higher taxes

GC- Not all LM zone businesses are 24/7 and of course there are laws and guidelines that businesses need to follow. In my case, my property I butted up against the wooded lot in the back of the property and when I moved in 14 years ago, Bergen leased the ball field to the town for a $1 per year. So that being said Bergen ran a LM business and had 1957 working in early 2000's. Unfortunately, for reasons that I am assuming (high taxes, environmental pressures by the State of NJ, Cost of doing business in NJ) forced Bergen to move to Mountain Top, PA

As a taxpaying citizen and business owner in the town of Hackettstown, I want what I think is best for the town. In the 14 years that I've owned my property in Hackettstown, the town has approved and built about 6 residential developments(2 across from the hospital, Lions Gate, Bergen Tool, Bilby Rd, across from River Star Diner) that has doubled my taxes and has the schools busting at the seams. My understanding is that Highland Act and COAH has played a big role in this. Why the town approves more residential zoning in a 3 square mile town is beyond me.

As far as "senior housing" goes, my understanding is the town is limited to the amount of restricted housing it can have. And last I heard, Hackettstown met that limit for senior housing. That could have changed though.

THE MORP
May '15

MORP, thank you for your efforts, I hope you have had some success. I don't think we can ever stop development and your cautions are spot on. Not that taxes necessarily go up on every development, but as I have said in the past, most infrastructure expenses are not a smooth cost curve but a series of step functions. Need a new school, drop a few million, need a water plant expansion, drop a few... And then you have to build towards the future so need room for 100, build to what --- 200, 300? Takes careful planning to develop rationally.

Hackettstown has the additional issue of being a semi-urban commercial hub for surrounding residential areas. So while Kings Highway not Hackettstown, Hackettstown will feel the brunt of Kings Highway commuters, shoppers, kids looking for a place to hang, and passersby. I think Kings Highway should be of grave concern to all Hackettstowners. Not sure how the county planners account for this or whether they even bother. Yet it is Hackettstown's problem in the end. Earlier I posted many surrounding communities zoning maps and links and literally all of the Hackettstown surround puts it's higher density on H-town's borders.

My main personal issue is Hackettstown's love of lower income housing and it's inability to attract anything else in residential. I feel for the neighborhoods surrounding the college, behind Bergen, etc. as they get encroached by high density second story apartments, apartments, and incredibly small townhomes.

Sure we need them, but is that all we can do?

That on top of everything MORP said.

mistergoogle mistergoogle
May '15

mistergoogle- I believe that what you are calling Hackettstown's love for low income housing is to be blamed mainly on COAH. The rules for COAH have changed at least a few times since I have been following this topic. Hackettstown has not met it's state requirements for the amount of affordable housing units. From what I see is COAH doesn't want to create the "Other Side of the Tracks" or "McMansions" communities and wants to integrate the rich to live next to the poor and the poor next to the middle class home, etc. I personally don't think it's a reality. And talk about government telling property owners what they can do with their property, COAH is doing just that, not individually but on a planning level (Your town needs to have x number of affordable housing units) Of course, this is my opinion on the matter.

THE MORP
May '15

It seems that the trade off for the developer getting a change in zoning was recreational space for the community, so it seems as successful as it was going to be, while still fighting hard to get the property cleaned up.

Darrin Darrin
May '15

Looks like the last building remaining is coming down today

Darrin Darrin
May '15

MORP, it's hard to find the numbers on who has done what and who owes what to COAH but nowhere have I seen that Hackettstown has been singled out for some kind of special COAH treatment. Have you?

mistergoogle mistergoogle
May '15

Hold your breath and don't breathe in!

THE MORP
May '15

Thanks pampurr I didn't know the long valley site had a community center in the plans. That would be great here. I wish a YMCA would go into the Bergen site. Nearest one is in Randolph and I can't find any in Warren county. It would be a perfect fit for our town.

Darwin Darwin
May '15

Darwin- Now that is some good planning. Only downfall is YMCA would not pay taxes, I would think, as they are non profit. But that would be great for the community, bring people in from out of town and not affect impact on schools. But a much better idea than apartments.

THE MORP
May '15

mistergoogle- I don't think the State is singling out Hackettstown. I just think COAH keeps making changes to the rules and laws. So it makes it hard for the planning board to plan properly. For example, they might say the town needs 40 deeded affordable housing units and then the come back a year later and say you need 60 units. All the changes that COAH makes, seems to make things difficult for the town is the jist that I have been getting all these years. Also, the fact that our town seems to be a buildable area within the Highlands Act area. Highlands seems to make changes all the time too.

THE MORP
May '15

My concern is that it has been made known that COAH requirements will be changing this summer. This coupled with being one of the current developments looking to build housing in Hackettstown may end up giving us more then we barged for, or more low income housing then we thought would come.

The developer in the past has expressed interest in buying out of the low income housing requirement, but I am unsure if new rules will have any affect on his ability to do so.

I still think a M&Ms store would be great, and that Mars would greatly benifit investing in some sort of tours/gift shop like many other big named products have, that would also make hackettstown a destination. But a community center also seems to be a great idea, especially considering the location being so close to the heart of our town.

Darrin Darrin
May '15

Darwin - When you say "the Long Valley site", remember that's not Kings Highway that's under discussion. Rice presented a concept but there's no actual plan, and nothing as been adopted. The whole concept is based on the bypass going through, and a number of other issues. One of which is getting a buyer to front the $3 mill the community center would cost. Rice's idea was to try to attract someone like a Y that would own and operate the center. It would not be own or operated by either Rice or the town. Only Rice can say whether that was considered for Bergen. But when the cost for that alone would be more than the whole current development plan, and it would take the space away from the apartments Rice plans to make his profit on, it doesn't seem like it would be in the cards.

THE MORP - All of the things you stated were exactly all the reasons to be concerned or totally against residential or mixed zoning. But the only thing you mentioned about industrial is what, "we had luck before with Bergen, let's do it again?" How many other residents would like to see another Bergen there on the site? If you go any kind of manufacturing zone you run the risk of not only a horrible neighbor right next to all of the homes, but zero ability to stop that. Office/Retail is a far better choice to be next to residential areas. And if a couple of office buildings aren't enough profit, a small number of every day low density single family homes in keeping with the existing properties in the back would not have the big impact high density apartments will. Putting industrial right in the center of town is an outdated concept, we don't need to move backwards.

Additionally, out of the six plans you mention half of them are senior housing - Nisos Lemnos, Riverwalk, and Lions Gate. Giving the timing that could have been Bergen instead of Lions Gate, and Lions Gate might have been more retail. But the residents scared Van off, and so that's why Bilby is happening. (isn't that called "Princess"?) It should be noted that Bilby is planned to complete the COAH requirements of the town. Hunters Brook correctly was largely impacted by Highlands otherwise they were going to wait longer.


@GC "And if a couple of office buildings aren't enough profit, a small number of every day low density single family homes in keeping with the existing properties in the back would not have the big impact high density apartments will."

You are very correct in saying that, but that counter acts with what you said prior as far as Rice making money. Unfortunately it seems the way of the world is stacked housing, and seems the way Rice wants the property to go. Initially Rice wanted 60+ homes (correct?) that is a far cry from a "few". But in saying that, IMO I would think the current homes in the rear of the property would rather other homes, then what was once trees converted to an asphalt parking lot.

Darrin Darrin
May '15

Darrin - What I said previously is what I said now, it's just that's *my* opinion. And it's also the ideal world that I was suggested THE MORP shoot for instead of going a route that could actually have made it worst.

What enough profit is enough is ultimate resides with the developer who decided whether to go ahead or not. It would be enough for my tastes, but obviously not for Rice - which is why there is always give and take just as the planning board has to have their opinion on how much is too much and what chances are the developer would have walked away. In this case, like everyone else I had hoped for more, and while not happy am at least not unhappy. The CVS portion is definitely a good thing. The rest still depends a lot on hold his feet to the fire to live up to what is agreed on.

As for COAH changing, as far as I know there is no need to let him add COAH. Even if the need increases, Bilby Road can handle it. That's one of the pieces of sticking to the agreement. I believe he will for entirely selfish reasons. He wants as big $ as he can get for the new places. Paying off the fee will just make more profit for him.


Re: Bergen Tool- CVS approved

Tower going down

Darrin Darrin
May '15

Obviously developers make money on all levels of income housing. It's just that no one could conceive of producing and selling them on the Bergen site; I get that McMansions probably wouldn't fly there or in most of Hackettstown. That ship done sailed. But that does not mean we had to fall to the lowest common denominator of packing 99 units in, much less some on the second story above the retail.

"The developer in the past has expressed interest in buying out of the low income housing requirement, but I am unsure if new rules will have any affect on his ability to do so." I think they put money aside for this already, not that that's how it will end up, but I think there's a $250K placeholder. Not sure he ever did the set aside.

Sure, things change, that's life. But Highlands restrictions really does not affect what types of development Hackettstown allows, it just makes Hackettstown more viable. It's up to the town fathers via the Master Plan, Zoning Laws, etc. to determine future developments in the town. That's where the rubber meets the road.

By the by, I am all for Senior Living developments. They drive slow and don't get out often. Good neighbors.

mistergoogle mistergoogle
May '15

Re: Bergen Tool- CVS approved

Going down

Darrin Darrin
May '15

Darrin, would love to see a community center built there..!

pampurr pampurr
May '15

Hackettstown has a Community Center. The town looked into buying the property for town hall, a town center and other town needs. It was not viable as it would cost too much and taxpayers were up in arms. There is a YMCA Camp near, Camp Bernie. They wanted to make that camp larger and expand to a full YMCA facility but they claim the funds do not allow it. This was a couple of years ago.

GC has it right. Planning Board, town and developer have to give and take and negotiate.

teenie teenie
May '15

Re: Bergen Tool- CVS approved

Belly up for the tax increase then pampurr

mistergoogle mistergoogle
May '15

@Teenie "Planning Board, town and developer have to give and take and negotiate"

Keep in mind, these people represent the residents, and are paid for by us (taxes) so they must take into account what the residents want and what is best for the residents.

When the town looked into the property it needed both environmental and demolition done. Now the property is smaller, and will be ready to develop, I wonder if that will make it any different.

@MG "Belly up for the tax increase then pampurr"

My taxes have increased around 25% in 4 years, and I do not have much at all, What have I gotten from it? Nothing that I am aware of, other then pink sidewalks and a soon to be CVS billboard when I look out my front windows.

If our town is going to keep growing and approving apartments and other housing, we are going to eventually have to upgrade our facilities. Our current court room where meetings are held is undersized, and many times meetings had to be postponed because it could not fit all the people who showed up. Other offices that are in this building will have to grow if our town grows, police, construction, etc. Although I am against tax hikes with no payout, actually getting something that would benefit our town would not be the worst thing, taxes, as proven, are going up either way.

Darrin Darrin
May '15

Darrin Sorry 25% in 4 years? Ours has not gone up that much. If you have done improvements to your property that would do it. BUT overall our taxes have gone up very little the last 4 years and I live in Hackettstown proper.

I understand the Town represents us. But us is the whole town not just your area. Besides does the town have money if the developer decides to sue the town for not being able to develop the property? Who is going to pay the fee? That's why its called negotiations. Its a give and take situation.

teenie teenie
May '15

Yea sorry Darrin but according to zillow your 25% is not even close to be right.

Darwin Darwin
May '15

Darrin - You bought on Aug 12, 2009. That's closer to 6 years ago instead of 4. If you really wanted to compared 4 years ago that's $4489.68 this year, and $4442 in 2011. Your $47 increase of 1% is nothing short of enviable. At the absolute maximum figuring you really wanted to talk about the six years because that includes the reevaluation, it was $3739 back then. The correct amount of increase at its worst over those 6 years is 16.7% for an average of 2.7% increase per year.


Zillow numbers are seemingly wrong darwin, GC has the correct number for 2014

16.7% is pretty darn close to 25% for simply pulling numbers from memory, after all I did say around.....but we can pull hairs if we want. And actually now that I think about it, when I bought my house there was vet and senior discounts which remained till the end of the year, which obviously wouldn't stay, but is where I got the 25% from.

But that is not the point, the point is taxes keep going up, sure it is inevitable, it equates to the cost of living. At the same time the town is obviously growing, so bigger facilities are going to be needed.

Darrin Darrin
May '15

Oh man Darrin, tough crowd. I too would say if you eyeballed 25% from 17% close enough for government work :>) You open up and next thing you know they're reading your tax records, purchase records, and downloading your Zillow assessment...... Next they'll be heading to the courthouse to pull your deed :>) Thank goodness googlemaps has fogged out your windows for the street views :>) Then they'll hit ancestry.com and trace your entire family......

I just love the internet age.

Given the tax laws, without a reassessment, it's hard to beat 4% a year nowadays. In my own case, 4-years at 2% total. Ouch, but I did well in the reassessment. Think I am batting 4 out of 5 for improvement and only lost the one due to inattention; my in-laws did not want to make waves.

But I agree, it's all about the return on investment. I honestly don't care what I pay, although less is more, but what is important is what do I get in return. And in NJ, I feel it's less than sufficient. Now, at the local level, I think my guys do pretty well managing a buck. It's when you climb to county and beyond that I think we lose value. Lots of it.

mistergoogle mistergoogle
May '15

Teenie, yes, but when there is extenuating circumstances such as the water issues on site, they are going to take prescience so that the town does not make a decision that puts home owners under water, literally.

From what I have seen so far with phase 2, our town engineer is doing a very good job with this. Everyone seems to have learned their lesson with CVS and realized there is a way bigger problem then originally thought. Heck CVS was going to be approved according to everyone here (mainly darwin) but then it got postponed 2 years due to the public bringing up concern about the water. Had that been approved as it was, the homeowners over here would of been screwed!

And as far as developers suing towns, that is a very slippery slope I agree. Everyone, not just developers, are so quick to turn to their lawyers now-a-days it's ridiculous. And something that is concern can be construed as holding them back, or not allowing. It is very unfortunate because it takes all power away from planning boards, and sometimes they end up folding because of this threat.

It's very hard to say what the town wants for phase 2, there has not been any formal meeting to tell us what the developer wants since those initial meetings years ago.

Darrin Darrin
May '15

LMAO, that made me laugh MG. It's okay, I was slightly incorrect and corrections are welcomed, even if you need to pull hairs to do it. It is just funny that the interest is more on proving me wrong then discussing the benefit of the town, which was the point I was trying to make.

It's very simple math, if the town is going to keep growing, they are going to need bigger facilities, like morph said "More people=Bigger schools+More police+higher traffic+Maxing out our sewer treatment plant=Higher taxes"

I just don't understand why if that is the route you are going to take, shouldn't you be getting the facilities ready to handle that? The same people who are all for the town adding housing are people who are against the town building bigger facilities, when they go hand in hand, one requires the other.

Darrin Darrin
May '15

Because of the step function of adding facilities, it is human nature to delay and defer. Plus, it's human nature for developers, and sometimes town planners, to blue sky estimates which, in this case, means low balling it.

The stair step of adding new facilities is heightened since once you decide to build or expand plant, most often, you try to build with as much head room for the future as you can get away with so you don't have to go through it again in the near future.

That first brick for a new school for one extra student can be a killer.

The one I always love is the "business means ez ratables" so let's put in the strip mall. We'll just rake in the cash without adding increasing the population. And then discover we need an extra cop to control the hangers-about and other crime issues related to the ez ratable. Cha-ching --- $250,000 loaded cost plus a new car. This is especially true in the exurban almost rural surrounding areas where we have no hangers about until we put the first strip mall in.

mistergoogle mistergoogle
May '15

No planning board meeting this month went to check what was on the agenda and found the cancellation notice..

PLEASE TAKE NOTICE THAT the Chairman of the Hackettstown Planning Board, after consulting with the Board Attorney and the Town Engineer, has cancelled the regular meeting scheduled for Tuesday, May 26, 2015 at 7:30 PM.

Any and all matters previously scheduled are carried to the next regular meeting.

The next regular meeting is scheduled to be held Tuesday, June 23, 2015 at the Municipal Building, 215 Stiger Street, Hackettstown, New Jersey, and will be held at 7:30 PM.

michelemorp michelemorp
May '15

Does anyone know any more details about this "extensive" report that was done on your school vs. population situation? I have only been told a report was done and adding apartments would have little effect, I would like to know why and what they were based off of.

Darrin Darrin
May '15

Here you go Darrin... enjoy (-;

http://pppolicy.rutgers.edu/cupr/otherreports/njDemos.pdf

ianimal ianimal
May '15

Thank you ianimal, an interesting read, but dated at 2006 and using census info from 2000, I am sure is inaccurate for today.

I was more interested in the one directly for our town. I am sure situations are different town to town, and as a deciding factor isn't that what we should be going by? Not a regional average?

We need to asses the current situation at Hackettstown schools, I thought that was what was done?

Darrin Darrin
May '15

The study that I linked to, AFAIK, is still the State-accepted standard for assessing development impacts on school systems. Any project specific assessment that was done for the Bergen tool site was in all likelihood based on the multipliers in this report. I doubt that there is a link to the report you're looking for online anywhere, but you can get a copy by filling out an OPRA request with the Town Planning Board if you want.

ianimal ianimal
May '15

You know Darrin, there should be documentation on all infrastructure effects for all developments perhaps from two or three sides.

The first would be the impact documentation at least provided by the developer; I would guess the lowest form would be the application.

Then there might be documentation from each of the affected infrastructure elements like water, police, DPW, schools, etc.

Lastly, the h-town, warren county, or nj might have put together regional information using these sources.

I could find nothing on school infrastructure planning re google search. Sounds like a long search via each of these organizations.

mistergoogle mistergoogle
May '15

How often is the state required to update these reports? Meaning at what point are they considered outdated? Using data that is 15 years old seem pretty strange as well as dangerous.

I know from this you can forecast the future, but it is not a accurate method, nor should it be used on such a potentially large impact area.

I am sure inaccurate census, which is probably a common occurrence can highly affect these studies as well.

Darrin Darrin
May '15

The latest census is from 2010 however there are yearly population estimates based on that data. I would think one could estimate anything you wanted from a 2000-based report using a combination of 2010 and the yearly estimates for forecasting purposes.

For actuals for things like schools, I would think enrollment should be available.

Is the report posted?
Do you have enrollment numbers?

Here's the link for general population estimates. http://www.census.gov/popest/index.html

mistergoogle mistergoogle
May '15

Darrin - It takes 10 years to put together data like what you're looking at. It's neither strange nor dangerous giving the long term and high level purposes of what was posted. I suspect what you are referring to is the Superintendent's 2014 Demographic Study and the BOE's choices of realignment. The study's been talked about several times on the school threads. If you really want to make an impact on your tax dollar, it's there. The percentage of your dollar is way higher than the other pieces. Start here:

http://www.hackettstown.org/domain/36


I know I missed the bus with the study, but I would still like to know about it, as it is never too late to learn. And thank you GC, that may be what it is, I did not know the name

Darrin Darrin
May '15

I just drove past the " Princess Towers" location on Bilby Rd in front of the Medical Arts building and it looks like they are preparing for the fondation work.


They have been working on that property for seemingly years now, I am not sure what their schedule is.

Darrin Darrin
May '15

ianimal - another interesting fact of this report

http://pppolicy.rutgers.edu/cupr/otherreports/njDemos.pdf

is the numbers and data do not include Warren County in it.

So it is an old report and does not include data of our area. I brought this up at a planning board meeting a long time ago. I suggested that a local study to be done to make sure the multiplier projections would be accurate.

If memory serve me right, initially they projected that the Bergen Tool development would bring in 21 students into our school system from 99 apartment units. They later changed it to 28. But I feel without a accurate study with the correct data, these numbers are incorrect or just a guess at best. I still feel the town needs an accurate study and needs to get it right before developing.

THE MORP
May '15

That's exactly what I would like to see done morp. Not just schools, I would like to see traffic, stores, all demographic information for this area. At town meetings I have only seen traffic impact studies done on the adjacent roads, but this project should take into account the already problematic main street and also take into account the people who will take side streets as alternatives, we do not want our residential roads turning into a commonly used bypass, it is already happening all over town because main street has been over stuffed for years, and we seemingly keep adding to it with no care or impact studies done.

Darrin Darrin
May '15

Unless you're going to ask the petitioner, the county or the state to do that Darrin, don't think it will happen on the town's dime. I think you can ask for the data and results that the town used to allow the development to proceed. But for the schools that's in the study which you can compare to the Rutgers inputs but I am guessing it's a match.

The thing on school populations and populations is that they are type of structure (rental//owned) (detached or multi-unit) and bedroom dependent. So the fact that 99 units are going in is moot without knowing the bedroom configurations.

Secondly, for the roads at least, there's no data existing to speak to the traffic effect of the townhomes coming in just outside of town on 57. Collateral traffic damage so to speak.

The demographic study includes princess towers and Bergen tool sites so chances are, until the developer makes changes, they got the data right. And it shows minimal Hackettstown population growth which makes sense given we are currently shrinking. 470 units, 200 students by 2019-2020. That's between 470 and 1,000 adults in my guess. Now I say minimal, but it is a 10% increase for both adults and the schools so where is the tipping point for each of the schools or each of our pieces of infrastructure. If near 10% of maximum capacity for any facility and the study has the demographic ratio's wrong, those facilities are on the bubble and we're gonna need a bigger boat.

The second point is this is unit/bedroom specific so if developers move to change configurations and add bedrooms, the numbers will rise. I am just guessing that is in their basic interest and nature to do so. That's one to be sure to keep your eyes on.

mistergoogle mistergoogle
May '15

mistergoogle- I'm sure that the reports don't include the illegal immigrants that might be within our towns population. And even with the bedroom configurations, I am sure that will not stop the illegal stacking that can happen. I'm not saying that a new study would include those numbers but I think a current study could make a difference. If you overbuild there's no taking it back. That's what I consider planning.

Darrin- If I remember correctly, the Hackettstown Historical Society had offered some funding for studies on the property. I'm not sure if anything was done about it. Also, I would think that the Hackettstown BID could or has offered funding or apply for a grant to pay for certain studies.

THE MORP
May '15

i would think the Dollar General moving into the old Ford dealership will cause more traffic issues than the Bergen Tool site. At least with Bergen there is a light to control traffic. I'm more concerned with cars turning left into the ford parking lot or turning left out of the parking lot

darwin darwin
May '15

I would think that if the property owner wants to add housing to our town, we should hold him accountable to pay for the studies, wouldn't that make more sense?

Why should we loose town funding to allow a developer to maximize his profit?

Darwin, if you are concerned about left turn out of doller general you should know that the traffic "expert" made it very clear that for the traffic of the phase 2 development to work, people would have to be allowed to turn left or right at the current UN-signaled route 46 entrance (they will be keeping that existing cutout). Just using the traffic light will not work, and will cause backups (his words not mine) So that should give a idea of how much traffic they are, or were (when the statement was made) they are planning on. Multiple stores and apartments is sure to add more traffic then a single store will. The biggest concern is that the property in question backs to multiple residential streets and I do not want to see them getting used as bypasses.

Darrin Darrin
May '15

" I'm sure that the reports don't include the illegal immigrants that might be within our towns population." Nah, you don't know that and if the study was done correctly, it would survey what was there, illegal or not. Same could be said about the Rutgers study which has similar numbers.

Darrin, the Ford property has two entrances to the side street adjacent to the property, one from the small upper lot and one from the lower lot. Dollar General does seem to generate a good amount of traffic and unlike apartments, it is through out the day versus concentrated at rush hours. Too bad there isn't a convenient existing traffic light.

Certainly getting "boxier" at that end of town. Gonna need a bypass soon.

mistergoogle mistergoogle
May '15

"But for the schools that's in the study which you can compare to the Rutgers inputs but I am guessing it's a match."

They would not be a match if you read through both. The Rutgers study is a much more generic statewide review of both overall and regional populations. It comes up with very generalized "multipliers" based on periodic census data.

The Hackettstown school study says it uses regression analysis and "co-hort" method predictions based on only the school district involved. (the study adds it is the method required by state law) It explains how each grade level is carried forward from the previous year and the data has been compiled over the past six years from mandatory reporting to the DOE.

I can understand wanting more types of studies we may not have like traffic and business growth. (which we do have some) But when it comes to current, Hackettstown specific, all inclusive data, the report on the BOE site has it.

Mr G - One thing you mentioned you sure got right. The apartment size configurations are crucial. One bedroom units aren't a huge impact on schools, and two bedrooms have modest impact. It's when you have 3 bedroom rentals that the numbers jump up considerably. The numbers of each size planned are stated in the BOE study. If 3 beds were the most profitable, then you would expect all the developments to plan as many of those as possible. But that's not the case. Bergen is going to be all 2 bedrooms. Princess and Lions are going to be a mix of 1, 2, and 3 with emphasis on 2 beds. Both are twice the size of Bergen. As long as its held to current plans, Bergen is no town-buster. There are much bigger fish to fry than this.


" you don't know that and if the study was done correctly, it would survey what was there, illegal or not."

That would be the hope, but I would think that anyone that was illegally living in the country would not participate in a census.

And do remember MG, That Ford building is not going to just be a dollar general, it also has a brewery going into the back, so they may maintain that upper smaller lot for the brewery and the big lower lot for dollar general, I would think that makes the most sense. I am not quite sure how a traffic pattern of two very close properties exiting without a signal into main street is going to work, that road currently doesn't work as it is!

We need to keep in mind that this area has many residential dwelings, My concern is that the bergen property also backs to third and fourth, and well as could be made to have east stiger run all the way through, creating a basic highway through the property and through existing residential areas. It is no debate that many of our residential streets are already used to bypass the main street traffic, so we are definitely going to be adding more.

Darrin Darrin
May '15

GC, sure there are bigger fish to fry, but you still have to pay attention to what is going on around you, when you stop paying attention to the "little guy", that's when plans change. Nothing has been set in stone with the bergen property, and as far as I know, saying what will be put into bergen is a guess, all we know is what the developer has tried for in the past, and that is town homes, and apartments. I do agree with what you and MG said about the sizing being crucial though.

Darrin Darrin
May '15

Darrin i thought it was in the plans to widen E. Stiger and put in a left turn lane.

darwin darwin
May '15

Yes it is darwin, but if you remember (not sure if you were at the meeting with the traffic assessor) he made it very clear that even with that additional turn lane they would still need the main street un-signaled bi direction exit otherwise traffic conditions would reach a "unfavorable" condition

Darrin Darrin
May '15

And then there's the RR tracks. How many dumb a$$e$ stop on the tracks, or their car bumper isn't clear of the tracks. That happens now when traffic is backed up. One train, one time, is all it will take. Not pretty.

auntiel auntiel
May '15

Oh, I got it mostly right, and mostly wrong. I am still pretty sure the BOE study will fall in line with the Rutgers study even with all the fancy mathematical and historical data tossed about (that's why they get the big bucks.....) However, the range available from the Rutgers study is considerable so as to using the exact same numbers ---- it depends on the input assumptions applied; not the fancy stuff or the historical stuff but the raw input assumptions made as to the type of housing.

The fancy stuff is where the steel meets the bone for existing housing but the BOE kid total for Bergen at .32 falls between the Rutgers range of .17 and .62, with average (including both owned/rented) at .21. Pretty much tells you that the Bergen site will be rental and the rent will around median but probably lower, not above median.

I may have gotten this confused, the Rutgers study is humongous. And the factors are school age children per unit for 2 bedroom so here goes:

BOE Bergen site: .32 or 32 kids (up from 28 in previous iteration.)
R, avg, owned/rent: .21 or 21 kids
R, above median rent: .17
R, below median rent: .48
R, COAH: .62

For every three bedroom, multiply factor by 3 or 4 times; ouch.

Some other fun facts:
"a. 100 gallons per day (gpd) for each person in a single-family detached home
b. 75 gpd per capita in an attached unit
c. 25 gpd for each office worker"

Darin, apparently the Rutgers study has factors for other infrastructure elements like how many police, etc. needed. Get this one down and you can be quite the smart guy at the next meeting :>)

Not sure how a 6-year view adds to the Bergen site estimate since the numeric leverage is really bedrooms, rented/owned, price per unit, and other development variables. The multi-year estimate does not offer much in comparison to those factors. But the BOE view needs that for estimation for the legacy homes. The Rutgers study adjusts over time also but again ---- unless you are forecasting out into the future, the end date is the most relevant. And while the 20-year trend is downward out to 2000, I can only hazard the guess that the trend has continued or tapered.

Point is I think the BOE and Rutgers estimates are comparable, methodology probably similar, and doubt that Darrin or others can find fault with the BOE computations. Where there may be issue in the numbers is the base assumptions used to make those correct computations. We noted that the number of bedrooms is the biggest and we know that assumption for Bergen. But rented/owned, price per unit including COAH, and other development variables can adjust the school kid estimate significantly. Without knowing those inputs you just don't know. More important is if these assumptions change over time, you will only see the final effect as in ooooops: more kids.

mistergoogle mistergoogle
May '15

http://www.nj.com/warren/index.ssf/2015/05/what_are_warren_countys_growing_and_shrinking_comm.html

Good link. Hackettstown has only gained 701 people since 1980 over 35 years. Most of Warren County is in a free fall with population. All that existing infrastructure with no population to support it, there's something to think about it. We need growth and that's what Bergen Tool and Bilby Rd represent. Also Mistergoogle's in depth analysis on kids assumes it all happens at once, which I doubt. It will be over many years and as these sites develop the existing homes will be losing kids to college or those moving east.

Honestly, not a real pretty picture everyone is heading east or south in NJ.

hackettstown townie hackettstown townie
May '15

@HT "Most of Warren County is in a free fall with population."

"Honestly, not a real pretty picture everyone is heading east or south in NJ."

So if we are actuallt loosing people, why is it that more housing is even needed? That doesnt seem to make sense.....

Darrin Darrin
May '15

"Most of Warren County is in a free fall with population."

OK, not to make like of your assessment, but picking two points 35 years apart and calling the result a trend is like standing in Denver, getting your altitude and the altitude for the beach in California and concluding "it's all downhill from here."

According to the BOE demo study, Hackettstown population:
1950 3,894
1960 5,276 - 35.49% increase
1970 9,472 - 79.53% increase
1980 8,850 - 6.57% decrease
1990 8,120 - 8.25% decrease
2000 10,403 - 28.12% increase
2010 9,724 - 6.53% decrease

"not a real pretty picture" hardly indeed. Not even sure whether we have an exodus. Might just be a decrease in household size. Or are there 300 vacant houses in Hackettstown in 2010?

Yes, all sorts of people are leaving NJ, especially the old and the young who can't find work. This has happened before. I would hope the developer has done his research and is not trying to go broke. I would hope the planners have done their work and are not looking for non-existent ratables.

"It will be over many years and as these sites develop the existing homes will be losing kids to college or those moving east." As I noted before, the demographic forecast should be exactly that, a forecast that includes such changes over time. Thus all the fancy math.

mistergoogle mistergoogle
May '15

Doesn't make sense....Biggest exodus in the country... NJ

pampurr pampurr
May '15

New Jersey population over time:

2013 8,899,339
2010 8,791,894
2004 8,698,879
2000 8,414,350
1990 7,730,188
1950 4,835,329
1900 1,883,669
1790 184,139

mistergoogle mistergoogle
May '15

Maybe, due to the age shifting older this CVS may get more and more busy...


If the age is shifting older more sense would be in adult housing. This is why a precise study needs to be done. Not just population changes, age changes, children population, all should be taken into account when planning housing.

There is also many questions about the open space requirement. Who will own that? If it is private property then how is it allowed to be a park? Who will maintain it? Etc. These are all very good questions for when and if Phase two of this project is ever brought to light.

Darrin Darrin
May '15

If people stay in Hackettstown, yes more 55+ housing.

Darrin, this is Warren County, not Morris County. The things you expect would be addressed in Morris County but Warren County is still in the 1950s...


"Warren County is still in the 1950s" Gee, I thought Warren County was in West Virgina :>)

You can do all those types of studies you want on the taxpayers $$$ but certainly you can't ask a developer to foot the bill for that nor can you dictate 55+ housing to them, I think, via zoning. You can ask the developer to preform an impact study, but that's different from what you are saying here.

On the open space, all good questions, surprised they have not been answered but I am not a process maven as to the proper timing to do that. But you ask a good question. I have seen townships saddled with it and if not frequented by the township it just becomes another tax burden or unkempt eyesore.

mistergoogle mistergoogle
May '15

It's not about "making" the developer do anything, it is about making good decisions for the town, decisions that have a reason.

I am sure there will be many more question if and when phase 2 comes out of the darkness of closed doors, lol!

Darrin Darrin
May '15

Darrin you sure are anti development from what I can see. Maybe you should stand in the developers shoes and look at his side of the discussion versus constant doom and gloom.
Do you see anything good in Bergen redeveloping. I've spent a fair amount of time going over all the posts you've made and frankly they are 95% negative. I'm just happy somebody is trying to do something. Main Street needs help we have a check cashing business, multiple consignment shops, money wiring services, pawn shop some real winners. You had multiple posts on how bad CVS was and you wouldn't shop there when it was built (camera's ready everyone) and you seem to be doing everything possible to throw this project under the bus?

What's the rub. And if it gets built and turns out a positive are you going to claim victory? How about giving things a chance?

hackettstown townie hackettstown townie
May '15

A couple of things hackettstown townie. I have been very clear in showing concern with what we put on the site and how it will affect/benefit our town, never have I said the site should just be left alone and not developed. So you saying I am 95% negative and am all doom and gloom is just trying to sway the crowd for whatever your motives happen to be. People who actually read the posts, and take the time to physically meet me, know my real concerns and know that is not the case at all.

You spend a lot of time working on just my posts which is quite interesting, I have my reservations as to why, but that's okay, certain people do not feel comfortable posting their real names and affiliations, I get it. But with your constant concern with the developers profit and such, I will ask anyway (even though you don;t answer my questions) Why are you so concerned with the developer over the good of the town?

Secondly had you actually "read my posts" as you say, you would see the reason that I will not be shopping at CVS is because I support local stores. We have a skylands pharmacy right across the street, and that is where I take my business too, and will continue taking my business to. I do not necessarily agree with a CVS because how many there are in the area, there seems to be more of them then then walmarts. But that is their deal, and up to them, I am sure CVS was smart and made sure that would work here, and I hope the town was smart in saying that it will not take customers away from skylands. It was also the only thing that would come and with the town's efforts push to get the developer to clean up the site, which was my main concern originally.

Again, I welcome you, to meet me, talk to me, and then make your judgement if you still feel the need to .

To answer your last question "And if it gets built and turns out a positive are you going to claim victory? How about giving things a chance?"

YES, because the victory is in if it works for the town. You seem stuck on thinking that I want nothing on the site, which I have told you is not true, get that out of your head, because it is not productive. Victory is in the changes that are made to the project due to time and research put in. Our planning board, town engineer, and many residents have brought very good concerns to the planning board with phase one, many of which were incorporated, that is victory! (catching things that may not work and changing designs before building) Once it is built, it is built, then when there is a problem everyone just says shoulda coulda woulda had you gone to the meetings, so I participate in every meeting I can, and raise any question or concerns I may have to the appropriate people. Sometimes they already knew about it, other times a few simple pictures strike a flood survey on the night CVS was to get approved and 2 years later we end up with multiple drainage changes on the plans that will benefit everyone, now that is VICTORY! :->

Darrin Darrin
May '15

Darrin, I was just saying u won't get the developer to pay for that and probably not the taxpayers. Need to find a cheaper solution probably.

HT: I think Darrin's primary concern is proper development especially re: hazardous material and water runoff. Whatever could he ever possibly do to harm real progress? Sure many of us would have rather seen something more interesting than yap (yet another pharmacy) but I use CVS and can think of worse thinks than a shorter drive and a drive-through. Plus I can wave to Darrin whenever I get my drugs :>) But I believe that citizen involvement is always a plus no matter how cantankerous said citizens may be (not that I am pointing at you big D :>)

But you comment "Maybe you should stand in the developers shoes and look at his side of the discussion" is foolhardy at best. First, tell me how you suppose to stand in this developer's shoes. It's a shell company of investors, a group with no visible identity for the responsible individuals. Who are they? They are nameless. What have they done before? They have no record. Do they have an directory, an address, any sort of "being" whatsoever beyond their paid-for mouthpiece? No. Beyond making a buck, do they have any other community ties whatsoever? Not that they advertise.

Beyond that, the ole "fool me once shame on you" adage comes to mind and I only have to glance just beyond Hackettstown to the top of the Rt46 hill to say: "hmmmm, I just can't imagine that the result matched the plan......"

I think development is inevitable. Careful development takes planning and citizen involvement and monitoring.

Thank you Darrin for your efforts.

mistergoogle mistergoogle
May '15

I appreciate that MG, Thank you!

Other people too, in the past, have thought I was anti-development, and that is not it. I realized early on, when I was young to the forum and honestly quite a hot head, that it was the way I was expressing myself that caused me to get that label. Development is inevitable, and if done right, a positive growth to our town.

At this point the best thing our town did, was make the developer clean up the rest of the site for CVS to get a CO. CVS was obviously in a big rush to build as they came to meetings asking to build before D.O.T approval, but nothing has been built yet, I can only assume that they too were concerned about the property owner not holding up to his end of the deal.

We are still dealing with the slabs, the developer wants to leave the slabs in place, in talking to the town engineer, in order for the slabs to be left, the developer must provide the proper research showing that it will not affect the runoff of the site, they have yet to produce this paper work, so as of now the slabs still must be removed, as previously agreed.

MG said it best, I am just a concerned citizen that takes notes of what everyone says at meetings, and holds people accountable to their promises. If i see something that is a pending disaster, much like the about to be approved plans for CVS's drainage were (over two years ago), I bring them to the proper people's attention, and I am glad to say I have the respect of those people, and they take what I say seriously, as the appropriate changes were made, (victory)

I have no doubt that our town engineer and planning board is doing a great job, but they do not live directly by the site, they do not see anything other then computer models and calculated tables, and an occasional pass by. It takes a eye witness and apparently some photos and videos to prove what really happens.

There is no harm is showing concern and asking questions, especially not if it benefits the good of the surrounding residents and the town as a whole.

Darrin Darrin
May '15

Re: Bergen Tool- CVS approved

Here is the other picture. This water did not "run onto" the bergen site, this is simply from the soil on site not being able to process a heavy rain.

Darrin Darrin
Jun '15

Re: Bergen Tool- CVS approved

Picture taken June 1st around 11am after May 31st rain storm

THE MORP
Jun '15

Darrin,

Is that the new fishing hole? Open recreational space? lol

THE MORP
Jun '15

Darrin your picture is misleading they excavated soil in that area I saw area being removed. Water goes to the lowest point right? There is no such thing as the soil not being able to process a heavy rain, what does that even mean? The Morp where is the picture from and how does it relate to the conversation, seems non-contextual to me.

hackettstown townie hackettstown townie
Jun '15

ht, you certainly seem to be getting pretty bitter, yet still offer no answers to the questions we have asked you.

But, I am a giving guy, so I will continue to answer.

@HT "Darrin your picture is misleading they excavated soil in that area I saw area being removed. Water goes to the lowest point right? "

So what is misleading about the picture? It was a area they dug up, and it is filled up with about 3 or more feet of water. Unless drainage ditches are dug (they are not) or the property was engulfed in water (it may or may not have been), water does not just openly flow to the lowest point. This center area has been holding a bit of water for weeks now, this last rain storm filled it up

@HT " There is no such thing as the soil not being able to process a heavy rain, what does that even mean? "

Sure there is, have you ever heard of saturated soil? ( http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Water_content) It means that the rain water is no longer absorbed by the soil and instead sits on top like shown in the picture I posted.

@HT"The Morp where is the picture from and how does it relate to the conversation, seems non-contextual to me."

Anyone that know this area, and knows the drainage design of this area would be able to tell exactly where that photo was taken and why it has to do with the issue at hand. The morphs photo shows the last storm drain at the end of the run before emptying into the brook (the same storm drain system the Bergen tool development plans on adding to), clearly this storm drain is already having problems exiting into the brook and is backing up into that parking lot. Currently there is no plans to upgrade this down stream and only plans to add more water. If I owned that area I would be very concerned.

Darrin Darrin
Jun '15

CANCELLATION NOTICE

HACKETTSTOWN PLANNING BOARD

PLEASE TAKE NOTICE THAT the Chairman of the Hackettstown

Planning Board, after consulting with the Board Attorney and the Town

Engineer, has cancelled the regular meeting scheduled for Tuesday,

June 23, 2015 at 7:30 PM.

Any and all matters previously scheduled are carried to the next regular

meeting.

The next regular meeting is scheduled to be held Tuesday, July 28, 2015

at the Municipal Building, 215 Stiger Street, Hackettstown, New Jersey,

and will be held at 7:30 PM.

Patricia D. Zotti, Secretary

Darrin Darrin
Jun '15

Please use one thread for the Bergen Tool discussion:

http://www.hackettstownlife.com/forum/568705

Moderator Moderator
Jun '15

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