Students Stumble Again on the Basics of History

This is why we need to reform our educational process in a fundamental way :

this article is telling and disturbing.

BrotherDog

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Fewer than a quarter of American 12th-graders knew China was North Korea's ally during the Korean War, and only 35% of fourth-graders knew the purpose of the Declaration of Independence, according to national history-test scores released Tuesday.

Don't Know Much About History?
Try your hand at some of the questions on the NAEP history tests.

View Interactive
..The results from the National Assessment of Educational Progress revealed that U.S. schoolchildren have made little progress since 2006 in their understanding of key historical themes, including the basic principles of democracy and America's role in the world.

Only 20% of U.S. fourth-graders and 17% of eighth-graders who took the 2010 history exam were "proficient" or "advanced," unchanged since the test was last administered in 2006. Proficient means students have a solid understanding of the material.

The news was even more dire in high school, where 12% of 12th-graders were proficient, unchanged since 2006. More than half of all seniors posted scores at the lowest achievement level, "below basic." While the nation's fourth- and eighth-graders have seen a slight uptick in scores since the exam was first administered in 1994, 12th-graders haven't.

http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424052702303714704576385370840592218.html?mod=WSJ_hp_MIDDLENexttoWhatsNewsThird

BrotherDog BrotherDog
Jun '11

Those who don't remember history are condemned to repeat it. Truer words were never spoken. I'll never forget that written on a sign hanging behind Jim Jones sitting on his "throne" in a Time magazine photo published when the Jonestown story broke. About six years after that, I was working a temp job with a bunch of college age kids. During lunch break, one of them had Kool Aid. I made a remark to the effect, "don't drink the kool aid!" They just looked at me blankly. I said, "Remember, Jonestown?" Still, blank looks. Scary. Won't be long before you'll be talking to people younger than you and say, "remember? 9/11?" And you'll get blank looks.

Bruin Bruin
Jun '11

If you start with 1776 until I graduated HS in 1960, I had to learn about 184 years of U.S. history. In 2011, it's up to 235 years. That's an awful lot of history!


This was on Glenn Beck the other night. And teachers wonder why so many people have a problem with the current public education system? We can teach 5th graders about sex but we can't teach proper history?

JeffersonRepub JeffersonRepub
Jun '11

I lay some of the blame on the steady stream of technology toys that kids get addicted to
at early ages. Want to see better grades... take away the x boxes, Facebook, Twitter, and all the other gagets and web sites that occupy hours of teenagers time each day and you will see grades improve...

Spring Fever
Jun '11

your right the average kid will not know what (We the people) or (for which it stands) means let a lone what your civic dutys are as a USA Citizen are .It seams as if they stopped teaching it . but we are taught how to put a rubber on a banana

Caged Animal Caged Animal
Jun '11

The way history has to be taught now, from multiple perspectives, sanitized, making sure no group is offended, etc, is extremely boring! Wouldn't hold the interest of those of us who like history, I'm afraid. The problem is that there is so little commonality among our populace now. I can offer no solution.

jersey dutchman 2 jersey dutchman 2
Jun '11

Re: Students Stumble Again on the Basics of History

This is how I like to teach history.....get the kids so interested that just maybe they'll try to live it instead of being lectured about it! Our reenacting group has signed on many new members (under the age of 16) with such an interest in American History. And I feel they did it on their own since most schools do such a basic overview of history.

John C John C
Jun '11

Re: Students Stumble Again on the Basics of History

A typical "School of Instruction" camp for Civil War Infantry Drill and Living History. If interested in learning more, just click on my name below to view our Reenactors Website.

John C John C
Jun '11

Cbel - is that you being sarcastic. I sure hope so.

Steve-0 Steve-0
Jun '11

Re: Students Stumble Again on the Basics of History

A couple of our younger lads learning the Manual of Arms of basic infantry.
Young ladies are also incouraged to join our group to teach the public about homelife and other aspects of life in the 1860's.

John C John C
Jun '11

Steve-O: No, I wasn't. I needed to learn about early American history, WWI and WWII. Then came Korea, the Civil Rights movement, Vietnam, the space age, and on and on. Maybe it's just me, but it seems to me that teachers have to just skim over history to cram everything in. How do you see it?


Ohh Ok. I see it the same way as you. I thought you were saying what they had to learn today and when you were a kid was too much.

In the end its not even close to the history of what other countries history lessons cover.

Suck it up kids....Learn it and Teachers find a fun way to teach it. They did when I was a kid. Get creative. (Ok here we go)(Let the bashing begin)

Steve-0 Steve-0
Jun '11

WHY >>>>>.The way history has to be taught now, from multiple perspectives, sanitized, making sure no group is offended, etc, Sanitized <<<<<<< why teach the truth dont sugar coat it. ggerrrrrrrrrrr

"I lay some of the blame on the steady stream of technology toys that kids get addicted to
at early ages. Want to see better grades... take away the x boxes, Facebook, Twitter, and all the other gagets and web sites that occupy hours of teenagers time each day and you will see grades improve...Spring Fever" <<<<< you said a mouth full !!!!!

Caged Animal Caged Animal
Jun '11

John C,

That's awesome! Though I can tell you, as a KID, I would have thought you were crazy and would have been at all interested in re-enactments. As an adult, I think they're cool. But you're a testament to good teachers- trying not just to recite the information or giving reading/writing assignments, you try to really get the kids into it. Teachers like that are few & far between. When I was in school (graduated 1987), I can count on 1 hand the teachers that took that kind of interest in the materaial and.or the kids... and that's in ALL TWELVE YEARS of schooling.

JeffersonRepub JeffersonRepub
Jun '11

John C,

uh... I just realized that I actually don't KNOW if you're a teacher! lol. You used the word "teach" so I assumed! Either way, bravo!

JeffersonRepub JeffersonRepub
Jun '11

JR wrote -

"I can count on 1 hand the teachers that took that kind of interest in the materaial and.or the kids... and that's in ALL TWELVE YEARS of schooling."

but the teachers are always trumpeting that it is 'all about the kids' ? are you saying that's *NOT* true?

when did you become antit-education, anti-kid and anti-community? (that is what the teachers will call you now that you posted this)

BrotherDog BrotherDog
Jun '11

Just a poor ghosthunting camera toting reenactor that would never think of teaching in a classroom!

John C John C
Jun '11

I think its funny that we are presuming that History means American History and we are lucky therfore since World History is so much longer.... Should we amend the quote to: "Those who remember history are condemned to repeat any history outside of the U.S."

I remember when somone mentioned that putting the U.S. dead center in the map was a bit presumptuous (especially since sometimes it was made bigger too).

I am sure we all are using the U.S. aspect for reference but that we really mean is the sutdy of World History perhaps starting with the U.S. And History can be really fun. I remember a summary of The Middle Ages on the History Channel. Don't hold me to it, but from memory it went:

Let's summarize the Middle Ages: There were four indistinct periods: The Dark Ages (does not sound good), Early Middle (a confused period), Christendom (not good for pagans) and Renaissance (yea, everyone wins!!!). Of course, the Renaissance sounds pretty good but you had to get though The Plague to get there, ouch. The Middle Ages ran from 400ad into the 1400's. Basically the rich ate well and were only cooked a few times during this period while it was rare for a peasant to get a decent meal but it did happen. And then the Black Plague cleaned house making working and studying alone fashionable again. That's it, the whole thing in a nutshel.

The key to remember is that when the pagan rich were deposed, it only looked like they got the ax. In actuality, they simply went to rehab, became reborn, put on a different costume and continued to rule the world incognito while getting all those converted meek Christians unified to beat up on non Christians, steal their stuff, and set the stage for modern terrorism by putting one humongous chip on the Muslim's backs. When the Christians ultimately started killing each other, some went into hiding, joined the pagans, and rowed over to America to found a new nation with separation of church and state and religious freedoms as its hallmark since that's what got most of them killed during the Middle Ages (but that's beyond the Middle Ages...) Meanwhile the Asians were very far away most of the time.

And if you remember that, you will not be doomed to repeat it....or will you?

So here we go:

Before the Middle Ages, Rome flourished with its highly evolved political system, infrastructure, arts, and architecture. Great time to be a Roman, good time to agree with a Roman, really bad time not to. Silent was not deadly in this case. Not a bad time to be a peasant since there were roads, aquaducts, plumbing, baths, lots of sex, and the Roman rulers put on many a cool gladiator show for the peasant mob. Really bad time to be a slave and worse time to be a Christian since they were seen as not agreeing and were often used for gladiator target practice at sporting events. Since Football halftime shows had not been invented, Christians were the only form of entertainment.

The sack of Rome by Alaric the Visigoth in 410 CE had enormous impact on the political structure and social climate of the Western world, for the Roman Empire had provided the basis of social cohesion for most of Europe by killing anyone who did not agree,were different, or just didn't look good in a toga. Great time to be a Goth, terrible time to be a Roman, especially a rich Roman. Still not good to be a Christian but getting much better. Pretty good time still to be a peasant, not so good to be rich.

Many of the improvements in the quality of life introduced during the Roman Empire, such as a relatively efficient agriculture, extensive road networks, water-supply systems, and shipping routes, decayed substantially, as did artistic and scholarly endeavours. The Goths became Christian because it was gettng boring and it required less sacrifice than to be pagan. And while it was a good time to be a Christian and a bad time not to be, about the year 1,000 the decline was called The Dark Ages which has nothing to do with beer.

There was a brief hiatus from the darkness during the flowering of the Carolingian court established by Charlemagne from 770 to 814. Apart from that interlude, no large kingdom or other political structure arose in Europe to provide stability; it was like Afghanistan without Stalone. The only force capable of providing a basis for social unity was the Roman Catholic Church which Charley really, really liked. He also liked schools, roads, and building and he did a lot of it so it was a very, very good time for peasants and rich alike. But he liked the Chruch so much and really he did not like non-Christians. So after taking a town, he asked everyone to convert. He asked very nicely but made it clear that it was your choice. If you didn't, you were killed, beheaded, sometimes entire towns did not need hats after Charley came though. Very good time to be a Christian, excellent time to convert, very very bad time to announce you were not.

About this time, the idea arose of Europe as one large church-state, called Christendom started by the early Italian Mafia aka Reborn Romans who later founded the Democratic Party. Basically, during the Early Middle Ages (and no, there is no Middle Middle Age or Post Middle Age -- that would be silly) the Romans turned in their togas, put on funny Catholic clothes, especially the hats (get it, hats....) converted to Christianity, and said: "heck no, I don't know any gladiators, don't like togas, and I wouldn't ever own more than my fair share of alter boys, I mean --- slaves...."

Christendom consisted of two distinct groups of functionaries: the sacerdotium, or ecclesiastical hierarchy (that's church for you dummies), and the imperium, or secular leaders (that's state for you dummies --- and you thought Hamilton/Jefferson started this....do I smell forshadowing????) In theory, the two groups complemented each other, attending to people's spiritual and temporal needs, respectively. Supreme authority was wielded by the pope in the first of these areas and by the emperor in the second. In practice, they constantly sparred, disagreed, or made war with each other. The emperors often tried to regulate church activities by claiming the right to appoint church officials and to intervene in doctrinal matters. The church, in turn, not only owned cities and armies but often attempted to regulate affairs of state. Still, a good time for peasants and rich folk alike, just a bad time for non-Christians which is funny when you think it was really the Romans running the show.

During the 12th century a cultural and economic revival took place; many historians trace the origins of the Renaissance to this time. Towns began to flourish, travel and communication became faster, safer, and easier, and merchant classes began to develop. Agricultural developments were one reason for these developments; during the 12th century the cultivation of beans made a balanced diet available to all social classes for the first time in history. Also the weather was very good. After a period of extreme cold, global warming made things grow like they were in a green house. Some blamed the burning of non-Christians for the warming, others said it was God's will. Those who said it was Gods' will were instantly beheaded (OK, that one was subtle.....) The population therefore rapidly expanded, a factor that eventually led to the breakup of the old feudal structures. Great time to be a peasant, it was the best of times. Party on Wayne, party on Goth. The word ribald was invented. Voluptuous was in. Kirstie Ally would have been a diva.

The 13th century was the apex of medieval civilization. That's the cat's pajamas to you morons. The classic formulations of Gothic architecture and sculpture were achieved. Many different kinds of social units proliferated, including guilds, associations, civic councils, and monastic chapters, each eager to obtain some measure of autonomy. But their were no teacher Unions. The crucial legal concept of representation developed, resulting in the political assembly whose members had plena potestas—full power—to make decisions binding upon the communities that had selected them. Intellectual life, dominated by the Roman Catholic Church, culminated in the philosophical method of Scholasticism, whose preeminent exponent, St. Thomas Aquinas, achieved in his writings on Aristotle and the Church Fathers one of the greatest syntheses in Western intellectual history. The peasants were really partying then --- oh boy, oh boy it was good to live in the 1200's and be part of the Renaissance fair as Goths and Romans, and Eastern/Western Europeans peons intermingled with the Mediterean peoples. It was a good time be almost anything except a non-Christian but Charely had killed most of them by then so it was pretty much OK for everyone left alive.

Do I hear ominous music? Did someone just go down to the basement?

Meanwhile in Scandanavia, it was cold, freakin cold. It was always cold and half the year you couldn't even get a tan from a 24-hour sun. You had to dress in furs, you made lots of dating mistakes, and you were given awful names like Lars and Gunter.... But you had great boats with a light draft and a keen need for some warmer air. So, in 700ad, you went over to England to warm up, found an abby that had lots of precious metals in funny shapes like crosses and no swords or arrows, just bald headed guys in black robes without underwhere on. And part of the island had guys with skirts. Cool. So you went home and told all the other Lars n Gunters about the warm enviroment, loot and women with visible body outlines, and soon all the Vikings were doing it: robbing, raping, pillaging, oh man what a time. With your low draft boat, anywhere on any river was accessible and most towns were on rivers because that's where it is the most fun to pee. Really bad time to be rich, not a great time to be a peasant, didn't matter what religion. And a god awful time to live near water which everyone did.... By 1,100, the Vikings were cooking in high gear and Christian life and the Roman Church was threatened.

But there were these knights hanging about so the Roman Church just revved them up, fed them well and pointed them towards the Vikings. These Kngihts had this code of Chivalry which is like a metal encrusted guy with a crossbow, a lance, and a HUGE head splitting sword who opens doors for ladies and does not date your daughter unless you say its OK. So, around 1,100, the vikings were flourshing, the knights, like Arthur, were growing to meet the Viking threat and life was still pretty good for everyone. And during the 1,100's the knights began winning, the Vikings began retreating and life again was fantastic for everyone. But there started to be a problem. Lots of knights and no vikings. Bored Knights are very bad for rich people and deadly for peasants. So beginning to be bad time for peasants, bad time for rich since the Knights had no one to beat up on. And then since the peasants and rich folk stopped going to Church, no more collctions plates. Bad time for Church --- what to do????

Aha --- invent The Crusades, have the Church suggest the Crusades, find the holy grail if you can.... Send the bored Knights to kill the Muslims and steal all their stuff. From 1100 to 1300's, the Knights crusaded away and peasants and rich alike breathed a sigh of relief. And to support the Knights with their banking needs (since carrying large bricks of gold across the Middle East was unsafe and very hard on the horses), the Church created Fiat (like the car) money and the Knights Templar to be the bankers for it. Problem solved, Knights busy again. Peasants and rich folk using collection plates again and new revenue stream for the Church from the Knights Templar. The Bishop who thought of this one got a big fat raise.

But the Knights Templar (remember --- the STATE part of the Christian equation...and the Templars were State.) were getting too much money, too powerful, and so in 1307 the Church part of the Church had them all killed on Friday the 13th during a really scary movie. Turns out that Friday the 13th is a lucky time to be anything but a Knights Templar which is uber bad luck.

So kids, that wraps up the Middle Ages since after that is was all down hill with 1350 being the pits as the height of the black plague which killed 30% to 60% of Europe and 75% of those infected, bad time to be a human, worse time to have a lot of friends.... And after that we had the Renaissance where art and scholarhip are king since being alone studying or painting or sculpting is a good thing when everyone else has the plague. Ante Domino's home pizza delivery was invented during this period.

Is that the end of the History lesson, the end of the story kids???? Not really. Because as luck would have it, although they were seriously unlucky, a few of those Templars survived. They walked up to Scandinavia where they had an outpost and talked to the Vikings who said, "yeah, we know what that feels like, seen it, felt it, been there." And then, once again, these rich-toga- wearing-pagan-gladiator-lovin-romans-cum-catholic-costumed-christian-funny-hat-wearin-templars put on another costume, used silly symbols and handshakes, and morphed into becoming freemasons rowing over to American with the Vikings, landing in Minnesota (via the Hudson Bay route), to scope out the new land and whether cheese could be made there. A few hundred years later, the freemasons founded America, with separation of church and state (man, did they learn that lesson on Friday the 13th), and religious freedom (yeah, like they were going to let the Catholics have another shot at them....) and inalienable rights (OK, the alien part is a bit of a Historical stretch, but have you really looked at a dollar bill......) of man.

So kids, study World History, it's fun, it's cool, and it's all connected. And remember the 4 major summary lessons of history throughout the ages:

1. It sucks to be a peasants usually, but not always, so recognize and enjoy the good times.

2. Rich folks have problems too, but when they do, they just change their costumes and rule again

3. Its better to be a pope than a peon (see 1 and 3).

4. After every plague comes a renaissance so lock youself in a room, study hard and be ready to party when the time is right.

mistergoogle mistergoogle
Jun '11

mistergoogle: How do you have time for all this?


Jacques de Molay, thus you are avenged

MrCharlie2
Jun '11

MrCharlie2 - While true. perhaps we shouldn't forget the "History of Western Civilization" is only one piece of the entirety of World Culture. I'm not sure the Olmecs, Incas, and Aztecs subscribe to the theories of the Knights Templar. I'd bet Lao Tzu or Genghis Khan aren't really even bothered.


toga- wearing-pagan s yes yes now thats history

Caged Animal Caged Animal
Jun '11

I heard - not sure if its true but they no longer make Cursive writing or reading mandatory. Now why would they do that???

Huh...let me think about if for awhile - oh yeah maybe if you wanted people to forget history - you would no longer teach the style of writing contained in documents such as the US Constitution or Declaration of Independence, etc...

Yup - no agenda going here...go back to sleep people ; )

babybull24 babybull24
Jun '11

I think very very fast but I type even faster than I think and and cut n paste faster than both...... About my memory, I forget. I think I lied about this coming from memory...might have been a lot of cut n paste....:>) Given the factless onslaught some topics generate and the 5-to-1 liberal-to-conservative HL ratio, I have gotten very fast at searching too, thus the moniker.

Because I think so very, very fast, I jump to conclusions, make rash judgements, leap before I look and make much waste with my haste.

To average things out, I talk r e a l s l o w......

mistergoogle mistergoogle
Jun '11

They teach kids to pass state tests. Is a portion of that test dedicated to History? I don't think so. Schools have taken on the roll of parent (drug testing, feeding, counseling, nursing, fitness, sports), and education has taken a back seat. Every time a kid gets drunk, gets into trouble, or does not do well, someone wants to start a school program to address it and the community supports it.

I know I'll take a bashing over this but sports are not education and they get more attention from parents and the community than the educational programs do. This is what it gets us, kids that can play football, a place for the fencing team to practice, but kids that don't have time to learn or don't know US or World History.

notreally notreally
Jun '11

mistergoogle: You're a hoot!


Hey Not Really.

We are number 5, we are number 5.... And even higher in Math. Must be doing sumptin rite in Math not as well in anglish and spulling.

http://education.usnews.rankingsandreviews.com/education/high-schools/articles/2009/12/09/americas-best-high-schools-state-by-state-statistics

Cbel --- yes, think fast, wise like owl, just have to learn to walk with foot in mouth......:>)

PS --- there will be a test on my disertaion later (NTW --- multiple choice)

mistergoogle mistergoogle
Jun '11

Funny stuff, g-man... thanks.

ianimal ianimal
Jun '11

notreally
"They teach kids to pass state tests."
Which i feel is wrong . dont teach to pass state test . teach for th sake of inspireing their minds, the state test is just a gauge .
"Schools have taken on the roll of parent (drug testing, feeding, counseling, nursing, fitness, sports), and education has taken a back seat."

yes your right and its sad

sports need to be earned with good grades

Caged Animal Caged Animal
Jun '11

Did you ever think the teachers are teaching them, they learn it for the test and then they don't care to remember history because it doesn't mean anything to them? I am not saying that every teacher is great, but they are not all bad either. I was taught by great teachers but I don't recall all of the material I was taught. If I need to know I google it. Everyone's memory is different. Stop bashing teachers and blaming them. The kids have to take some responsibility once they are of a certain age!

Dianne D
Jun '11

I loved history. Remember a lot of it but then again I never cared much about tests, always thought of it as interesting stories being told by some sort of "authority". Mr. T was the best (not the one with the mohawk).

With the proliferation of the internet, teachers are no longer viewed as worthwhile authorities and seemingly, are the enemy. Why sit through a semester of history when you can google information that you may want (no offense intended Mr. G, liked your post)? More and more our kids (and sometimes adults) are dependant on machines that have existed their entire lives. They know the answer machines exist, so why put forth the effort to exercise their mental muscle?

I'm interested to see what happens to education in this country over the next ten years. As web 2.0 gets bigger, teachers get chased out of the profession and students get lazier with more entertainment devices at their finger tips. It should make for a funny history blurb in 50 years. I wonder who will be reading it.

fearn123 fearn123
Jun '11

GC, thanks. I had forgotten where I read that, but I think you're right. BTW, Durant's volume 1 is devoted to Asian civilization, 1000 pages vs 10,000 pages of European civilization. He never got to America. Wonderful books.

MrCharlie2
Jun '11

fearn123
the internet is great and wounderfull and if you need to refresh your mind but when the power switch is turned off do you want your mind to go blank as the screen not knowing a thing or how to fine a library book to look it up .when the battery in the adding machine drops dead how will you add 2+2

Caged Animal Caged Animal
Jun '11

oh if I want to bash a teacher or two its ok

Caged Animal Caged Animal
Jun '11

I love history and to read about it; the internet lets me do that faster than ever. While I love to understand the people, the process, and the flow, I can not remember a date for the life of me.

So I only found history classes to be 50% useful --- the memorizing part just killed me and ruined the whole idea.

I think that not knowing history by memory is OK; not knowing how to discover and learn about history is a crime. So not knowing about China being NKorea'sa ally does not strike me as that bad. Have you ever read beyond that --- did you know that China was our ally in this war also. Did you know we dropped more agent orange like stuff on North Korea than in WWII and Vietnam combined. Who cares what you remember, it's the ablity to discover the facts and the purposes (all of them) is the important part. Not knowing the purpose of the Declaration of Independence --- tell you the truth, beyond the obvious I doubt any of us know. Matter of fact, I would guess that none of us would say, "one purpose was to get foreign aid....." This is my point --- schools tend to teach the date and a single sound byte fact as in "here is the single and only reason for the Declaration...." History is much richer than that and only by teaching the ways to learn about history, using the tools to discover history and emparting a fierce love of history (and the reasons you need to love it) will the schools ever really help our students.

Here are the purposeSSSSS of the Declaration. I am sure there are others as well as I am sure there was a great debate about what was said....what was cut.....and what was left out.

http://www.revolutionary-war-and-beyond.com/purpose-of-declaration-of-independence.html

Happy Fourth of July!!!!!

mistergoogle mistergoogle
Jun '11

CA

You restated my exact point. Not sure why your first comment was directed at me.

Since this thread was founded on history though, I'm interested if there is a historical example of when a work force had this much public bashing and political overhaul and yet improved performance. It may be "ok" to bash a teacher or two now. However if you have a child sitting in classrooms filled with forty students, due to a teacher shortage in five years, it may not be ok anymore. These arguments don't exist in a bubble. Actions have reactions and shortsightedness got us into this mess, it sure won't get us out of it.

fearn123 fearn123
Jun '11

Let me guess, we're supposed to throw EVEN MORE MONEY at this problem? That sure as hell hasn't worked in the past... all more money has done i created "do-nothing" jobs in administration & make the union demands EVEN MORE.

Nope. Not this time. The well is dry. The public school systems are just going to have to improve WITHOUT even more taxpayer dollars. The money isn't the problem. And I've said before- the majority of teachers aren't the problem. It's the educational administration & the union that is the problem. If ever there was a union in recent history that has gotten out of control (to the point of violence & criminal behavior) it is the teacher's union.

I've said it before & I'll say it again- if the teachers of this country don't wake up & figure out that their union is their own worst enemy, it'll be the end of them.

JeffersonRepub JeffersonRepub
Jun '11

it's not the money , it's the lack of academic rigor in our public school curriculum that is the explanation for why students here in our country lag so far behind a lot of the industrialized world in math and science.

they don't know the history because they have never been taught it correctly. it is not part of the classroom experience.

BrotherDog BrotherDog
Jun '11

Here's the thing i though i was taught history in grade school and i think high school also. And i'll be honest i just couldn't get interested. Of course it wasn't just history, it was school in general. At times i paid attention and picked things up of course. You really can't blame that on the teachers. My interest in learning came as i got older. As far as history it came from just traveling around over the last 15 years or so and seeing different sites, like Monticello, Gettysburg, Jockey Hollow, etc. Eventually i got the urge to go back and learn everything i never bothered paying attention to when i was younger. I finally stumbled upon a massive book about American history from the beginning and i am glued to it now. I should finish it in about a week or so and i'm so glad i got the urge to read it, i learned so much and got much more familiar with all of the bigger events in our history.

Bryan Bryan
Jun '11

I don't want more money thrown at the problem. But I also don't want blind action without forethought. Revamp benefits and pensions. Adjust the tenure system or get rid of it. The system needs a lot of work but there is a lot of collateral damage that is happening at the moment and I fear that when all is said and done, no one will be happy with the results: teachers, students, tax payers, etc.

Again, I'll watch with interest to see how this unfolds.

fearn123 fearn123
Jun '11

fearn wrote -

"there is a lot of collateral damage that is happening at the moment"

what collateral damage?

BrotherDog BrotherDog
Jun '11

Bryan, what is the title of the American History Book you are reading and author?
I could use a good refresher course too. Thanks!

Spring Fever
Jun '11

Bryan -- I agree. Once you see history the way you do now, studying it becomes a way of life. Schools need to plant that seed and teach you the tools to make it grow --- not recite a bunch of dates and events.

I find the Burns documentaries where actual letters and journals are read to be a heck of a lot more tantalizing than the events themselves although then I want to put things in context so I study the dates even more.....

mistergoogle mistergoogle
Jun '11

I've never once needed to know who people like Martin Luther, Genghis Khan (sp?), or Lewis and Clark were. I've never once needed to know that China was an ally of the Great Leader. The skills that I have needed and used (even outside of work) are reading comprehension, algebra, geometry, typing, PC knowledge, and woodshop; all skills taught in schools today.

While I agree that not knowing what the Declaration of Independence or Bill of Rights are and the reasoning behind them is disappointing (since they both form the basis of our legal decisions and way of life today), I think that there are plenty of topics that are no longer critical to the proper functioning of society. As our society (globally) and way of life evolves, our educational process must evolve. Advancement placement courses are but one example of how our educational process has evolved.

Put it another way...just because a student doesn't know that China was an ally of NK doesn't mean they are not educated if that lesson was replaced with a different, but just as vital, lesson.

BTW, I hated history in school. It was boring and lame. I have a much higher level of interest today because I like to understand the "reasoning and logic" behind events...I still find it boring relatively speaking though.

emaxxman emaxxman
Jun '11

I had the worst history teacher in high school the old football coach. Didn't give a damn about really teaching. The sad state is that most adults don't know much about American history or -god forbid-world history/geography/events.

blackcat blackcat
Jun '11

The book is A History of the American People by Paul Johnson. Overall it's very good. I didn't spend a ton of time researching other similar books. There were 1 or 2 others that stood out and i read a few excerpts and went with that one. It's very eye-opening in spots. At times i feel like you have to know some background or infer some things to piece things together but i have also been using the americanhistory.about.com website to help me do that along the way.

Bryan Bryan
Jun '11

Thanks for the information, Bryan.

Spring Fever
Jun '11

Teach kids to teach themselves.

Critical thinking is what we should target, not individual facts. As many have said here, not knowing a bit of information is fine. Not knowing how to find out is unacceptable.

justintime justintime
Jun '11

justintime is totaly right
and you cant all ways point to the internet to find it cause as i say when the power turns off your screwed

its good to teach the over all of how how our history is layed out and to remember some dates but not all

Caged Animal Caged Animal
Jun '11

JIT - Completely agree. I've always felt that HS, and even to a degree college, taught you how to learn. What you choose to do with that skill will determine how successful you are in life.

CA - If the power is out, the only thing I will need to know is where the batteries for the flashlight are. :-)

emaxxman emaxxman
Jun '11

I think that it's entirely possible that the child who couldn't tell you that China was North Korea's ally during the Korean War might be the very same child who can understand a complicated mathematical equation that will solve an engineering conundrum.

Or she might be the child who can understand molecular biology and create an innovation in the health care field that will save thousands of life someday.

Or perhaps he's the young man who can write a stirring novel that become a bestseller and provide enjoyment and insights to millions.

Perhaps she's the kid who knows just the right thing to say to her patients when she provides end-of-life care to someone's mom as she's dying.

Maybe he's the musician who will write music that millions will listen to, share, and revere.

Could it be that she's the artist who will create paintings that will one day rank with those of Renoir, Michaelangelo, and Matisse?

Maybe he's the athlete who will represent his country in the Olympics or the World Cup, or the World Championships of his sport.

Maybe she's the kid who will become a robotic engineer and create a device that will enable someone with a spinal cord injury to live a fuller life.

Just because someone doesn't know historical facts doesn't mean that they're not bright or well-educated. It more than likely means that their interests aren't in the field of history.

I think judging an entire country or their system of education based on how students perform on standardized tests in a particular subject does a grave disservice to everyone.


Agree that it is not necessary to know a lot of history facts.
But, in a democracy, the electorate needs overall to make good decisions. In order to make good decisions, they need an understanding of government and politics. And, it is very hard to have such an understanding without a basic understanding and perspective of what got us here, to this point. So history is important, even if knowing specific facts may not be.

jersey dutchman 2 jersey dutchman 2
Jun '11

jd2,

Best post from you EVER. If we do not learn from history, we are doomed to repeat it.

JeffersonRepub JeffersonRepub
Jun '11

Thank you A & W!

Spring Fever
Jun '11

I'm absolutely on board with learning history. I think that all kids should know and understand the implications of the events of world history.

Example: it's important to know that countries form alliances in wars, and on what basis they make those alliances. But to expect that one could automatically name the alliances of the Peloponnesian War....or the Korean War is nothing more than rote learning.

And cbel's somewhat whimsical statement does bear thought: During WWI, students learned history up to and, one assumes, including the early 1900's. Now, a century later, we've been through a stock market crash, a great depression, another World War, the Korean War, the VietNam war, all of the wars and conflicts in the Middle East, the establishment of the "new" country of Israel, the advent of the space program, the assassinations of many world leaders, and so much more.

Since the allotted time for the teaching of history hasn't changed all that much since the early 1900's: what gets left behind to make way for current history? Do we no longer teach about the Civil War? Or do we condense that to make room for the Gulf War?

I'm not being snarky: I genuinely want to know how one would propose teaching the same history that I was taught in HS several decades ago. A quadratic equation is a quadratic equation is a quadratic equation. But history is always evolving.

Anyway, to declare that our education system is sub-par because someone who isn't particularly interested in history and doesn't perform well on a multiple guess test is bothersome to me.


Agree, A&W, that it's very difficult to decide what should be taught. People will not only disagree about that, but also about what actually happened, what is important, why things happened, etc.

Maybe a few excellent "life and times" biographies of key figures during the U.S. formative years, Franklin, Washington, Hamilton, Jefferson, can be the cornerstone.

Then some about the horrors of slavery, bio of Lincoln, and the basics of the Civil War. Maybe that's enough.

The key is really what makes humans tick, and perspectives of how today is really not all that different from the past, in many ways.

It's hard though, because everyone will have their own opinion. And children are too young to understand much of this. People should continue to learn throughout their lives.

jersey dutchman 2 jersey dutchman 2
Jun '11

A&W said "Anyway, to declare that our education system is sub-par because someone who isn't particularly interested in history and doesn't perform well on a multiple guess test is bothersome to me."

But this is just ONE symptom of many of our deteriorating educational system, over many years. If you've been paying attention the last 20 years (and it's been going on longer than that), you'll know that it seems like every few months a new statistic comes out about how our school system is getting worse, or ranks poorly amongst the world. Or a news story about how a school, so caught up in it's own political correctness, won't let students do something as honorable as say the Pledge of Allegiance at their own gradusation.

Come to think of it, that's what burns me more than the corruption, poor scores, union hacks, and all else... that our schools have become politicized. In some cases, indoctrinating in leftist politics. ("Barack Hussein Obama, mmm-mmm-mmm") The colleges are all but lost; nutbag marxist professors preaching the doctrine from on high, not even entertaining opposing discourse. Too many reports to mention.

Thank God, America is finally waking up to all this stuff... but it's been in play for so long, I only hope it's not too late. The 2012 election will tell the tale.

JeffersonRepub JeffersonRepub
Jun '11

Whoops! I forgot to say to A&W quote that I posted...

What, would you have the students take UNstandardized tests? Or should tests be on an "I'm ok, your ok" platform? Oh, Johnny, I see for the question of 2+2 = you answered 3. Well, if that's what YOU think the answer is, that's ALRIGHT with us! Far more important for us not to bruise your self-esteem than to actually TEACH YOU ANYTHING.

JeffersonRepub JeffersonRepub
Jun '11

"Just because someone doesn't know historical facts doesn't mean that they're not bright or well-educated."

Do you really believe that?

If someone did not know US or World History I would definitely not consider them well-educated.

notreally notreally
Jun '11

There are also some people who want to be elected president that don't have a clue about history either .


http://www.rawstory.com/rs/2011/01/25/bachmann-founding-fathers-worked-tirelessly-slavery/

SnarkyRichard SnarkyRichard
Jun '11

While I'm certainly not defending Michele Bachman (she needs to be a little more precise in her facts), that article linked to is full of ...untruths, to be nice?... Thomas Jefferson never father children with his slave Sally Hemmings, for one. Don't try to debate it with me, just do some homework. I have multiple respected historical sources. To believe that story would be to believe Sarah Palin actually had her daughter's kid, and Barack Obama was born in Kenya.

-School is in Session-

And the article says the Founding Fathers compromised with the south to decree the slave 3/5 (three-fifths) of a person... do you know WHY they did that? Because slaves counted as population for the purposes of the House of Representatives. As long as the south held slaves, and the slaves counted as population, the south would always have more house members than the north, and slavery would never end. By making the slave "3/5 of a person", they were decreasing the number of southern representatives, thereby leveling the playing field in the house, in hopes of being able to abolish slavery in the future.

So, believe it or not, making the slave "3/5 of a person" was actually to HELP the cause of ending slavery.

-School is in recess-

JeffersonRepub JeffersonRepub
Jun '11

Richard - Not to worry. Since there's only one correct person left in the world, they will eventually own the past and re-write it so the conspiracy against them will having nothing left to do. What could possibly go wrong??


The author of that story is a regular writer for the Huffington Post and the Guardian UK. That should be all you need to know. (no wonder his "report" was so... factually incomplete.")

JeffersonRepub JeffersonRepub
Jun '11

I am well educated college etc. and hated History! Had to force myself to get a B to stay on the honor roll. I couldnt even tell you anything about what I learned. Now I realize it was the teachers I had. ALl they did was read out of a book and tell us test tomorrow. They didnt make it interesting to learn or to even want to learn it. My DD LOVES history and she told me this is the first year she ever did. WHY? Her teacher inspired her to. So much that nextyear she will be in Honors History. SO History isnt for everyone IMO. Now give me a Algebra or Geometry question and I can still do that. Or Biology or chemistry was my passion! LOL!!

Christine Christine
Jun '11

"The author of that story is a regular writer for the Huffington Post and the Guardian UK. That should be all you need to know. (no wonder his "report" was so... factually incomplete.") "


I don't care what anyone's political leanings are , but if you watch the video in that clip it's clear what Bachmann said . Bachmann may be Palin light , but she's still a dum-dum like her who sees prayer as a viable political strategy and that is about as far out the scope of reality as it gets for sane people in government . Obama ain't no genius either continuing the wars in the Middle East and keeping the tax cuts that favor the rich who refuse to spend their wealth here and continue to ship U.S. jobs overseas for the slave labor wages with zero benefits . And anyone who thinks health care for all , that is something that works in a country like Sweden with 10 million people , will ever work in a country with over 300 million people needs to look at what happens now with all the health care fraud being committed by supposedly legitimate chiropractors who expect you to go to them 3 times a week for the rest of your life ! Let alone the government infrastructure all this will cost . Medical fraud piled on top of more national debt is insane !

Ron Paul seems to make sense in all of this insanity , but his own party marginalizes him in favor of the far right nut jobs . Anyone got any better ideas that don't involve praying to God and cutting taxes while continuing to spend outrageous amounts on a military that the U.S. doesn't really need anymore ?

SnarkyRichard SnarkyRichard
Jun '11

Snarky,

I was commenting on the accuracy of the author's facts in the story. Read my post again. My post had nothing to do with Bachman.

JeffersonRepub JeffersonRepub
Jun '11

Hate to get involved in ideological arguments, but maybe just a little here:

The slave as 3/5 of a person for the purpose of representation, was more fair than as a whole person, as JR says, because the slaves were not allowed to vote. On the other hand, 3/5 is much less favorable to justice than zero - why should slaveholding societies get any representational benefits from slavery at all? So it was a major compromise. It did not help to end slavery, unfortunately. It took the Civil War to do that.

Staying away from whether or not Jefferson fathered children with a slave (the slave in question was in any case a half-sister of his late wife), it is a sad fact of U.S. history that it was very common for slave owners to do so. As Frederick Douglas said in his personal memoir as a slave, the slaveowner satisfied his lust and at the same time produced additions to his slave "property".

jersey dutchman 2 jersey dutchman 2
Jun '11

Zero would have been better, but the FF were smart enough to know it was unachievable at that time, without instant civil war. If America had dove into a civil war right after the Revolutionary War, we would have been divided, less powerful as a nation, and ripe for the British to march right back in and take us back. And frankly, they would have been on the SOUTH'S side.

So, while zero would have been better, what the FF did was EXACTLY what NEEDED to be done at that time, to reach the end goal. And they succeeded brilliantly with that plan. Yes, a the Civil War was still fought, but at a time when America could withstand such a tragedy, if only barely. More Americans were killed in the Civil War than in all of our other wars COMBINED.

JeffersonRepub JeffersonRepub
Jun '11

*Douglass

jersey dutchman 2 jersey dutchman 2
Jun '11

notreally wrote: "If someone did not know US or World History I would definitely not consider them well-educated."

Without using Google, name every single ally that the U.S. had in WW2. When you're done listing them, give me 3 examples of how the integral of an equation is used for. After that, explain what ontogeny recapitulates phylogeny is. These are all things that we learned in HS first year US history, calculus, and biology. Any self-professed and well-educated person should know these.

emaxxman emaxxman
Jun '11

Jeff says "Come to think of it, that's what burns me more than the corruption, poor scores, union hacks, and all else... that our schools have become politicized. In some cases, indoctrinating in leftist politics. ("Barack Hussein Obama, mmm-mmm-mmm") The colleges are all but lost; nutbag marxist professors preaching the doctrine from on high, not even entertaining opposing discourse. Too many reports to mention."

Obama has helped politicize the schools to indoctrinate our students in leftist politics according to the Jeff. Well, I think we do have to call Obama a genius if he can pull that on off in three years of office. Imagine if he used his power for good instead of evil (sarcasm alert).

Please, please mention some reports of professors preaching, much less preaching marxist doctrine without allowing opposing discourse. Please, please. Otherwise, sounds like a meaningless paranoid rant and we wouldn't want that, right?

Meanwhle --- ready for your history lesson on the Middle Ages?

1. Why is 13 considered unlucky?
2. Was 13 ever lucky for the peasants?
3. Was dressing Goth ever cool?
4. Was building Goth ever cool?
5. Is Christendom a place, a time or a delicious snack?
6. Was it better to be a Christian or a Pagan?
7. Which is worse, dark ages or black plague?
8. Who discovered America: a viking, a freemason, a circle, a square
9. During the Middle Ages, which was the better hotel room, ocean side or mountain side?
10. What comes after The Middle Ages and was it fair (hint....)?

Answers are in the text above.

mistergoogle mistergoogle
Jun '11

GREAT thread title BD. First time I looked at it because I knew exactly what it would be about.

Firefly Firefly
Jun '11

Not important to know that China was NK's ally in the not so distant past (and even present)? When all the young people who don't know this become our future statesmen, I hope they boned up real well on their Mandarin (which I hear is a heck of a lot harder to learn than history. Want to talk about memorization?) I guarantee the Chinese have not forgotten. Speaking of young people, where the hell are they? Haven't seen one post from one of the little bastards. There some kind of filter on this forum? I'd really like some insight right from them.

Bruin Bruin
Jun '11

the school system is loaded with left leaning liberal professors.

i know students who have gotten very low grades for writing papers the supported conservative causes. this is way wrong and it seems that our University systems gets a complete pass on the 'intolerance' shown to anybody who is either republican, conservative and/or christian.

there are some communist leaning professors on campus for sure.

BrotherDog BrotherDog
Jun '11

"When all the young people who don't know this become our future statesmen, I hope they boned up real well on their Mandarin "

Just as I would not expect a doctor to only have a HS education, I would not expect a statesman to only have a HS-level history education. I would expect each to identify the career path they wish to take and then pursue the necessary education required.

Plumbing and IT are just two examples of career fields that are/were not taught in schools (either now or 20 years ago) but yet there are plenty of successful folks in these fields.

emaxxman emaxxman
Jun '11

yep, Exmax is right again,

i am in the process of cleaning the pipes put on a windows server right now!

(did *NOT* get that from highschool)

BrotherDog BrotherDog
Jun '11

From the Fringe Division Other World department of Paper Does Not Refuse Ink headed by Dogmanet:

the school system is loaded with right leaning conservative professors.

i know students who have gotten very low grades for writing papers the supported liberal causes. this is way wrong and it seems that our University systems gets a complete pass on the 'intolerance' shown to anybody who is either democratic, liberal and/or non-christian.

there are some capitalist leaning professors on campus for sure.

mistergoogle mistergoogle
Jun '11

miggles -

????

tit for tat? you ape you!

or is that the other way around?

i will try and find the report that lists the percentages of of the political affiliations for campus professors, i do not expect you to believe me with a an goggled link to support the 'facts'.

if my memory serves me correctly it's like 85 % liberal democrat to 15 % republican on campus. (professors and adjunct professors nation wide)

and for the record i was speaking from personal knowledge, are you doing the same? or are you just aping me to try and get my goat? won't work you bully you.

BrotherDog BrotherDog
Jun '11

mistergoogle...

Please stop misquoting me... or should I say, SPINNING my posts. Do you work for a major network? Or CNN?

I did not say Obama has accomplished leftist indoctrination in out schools. The only mention of Obama was a quote from a song that an elementary school teacher taught her students. You don't remember that in the news? There was a big stink about it. Obviously the teacher was a left-leaning Obama voter:

http://blog.foolsmountain.com/2009/09/25/mmm-mmm-mm-barack-hussein-obama/

JeffersonRepub JeffersonRepub
Jun '11

Veering off topic for a minute. What bothers me way more than kids not being up to date on history since the beginning of time is their spelling, grammar and sentence structure. Go to the Shades of Death thread for example.

Rite, no and breathe instead of write, know and breath. What are some of these kids being taught....or are they just not paying attention? It's easy to hide ignorance of history, not so much with writing skills.


cbel,

r u kidding? idk what ur talking about.

lol

JeffersonRepub JeffersonRepub
Jun '11

What they need to do is get teachers that look like Lady Gaga and every one will learn that they are little monsters and they were born that way

Caged Animal Caged Animal
Jun '11

Jeff,

Sorry, I did not misquote or spin. You were not clear. I did not know the news story. You did not reference it or clarify you parenthetical so I just took you at your words. Sorry.

Dog:
It was parody, not factual --- just like your non-referenced input --- just an assumption, an opinion, a guesstimate. Bully --- what bully --- just by mirroring what you said? Childish, yes. Bully, no way.

You'll know when I slam you, it will feel like a bat.

mistergoogle mistergoogle
Jun '11

"Plumbing and IT are just two examples of career fields that are/were not taught in schools (either now or 20 years ago) but yet there are plenty of successful folks in these fields."

emaxxman

What schools are you talking about? Both plumbing and IT are/were taught in schools in my area.


cbel,

r u kidding? idk what ur talking about.

lol

Jefferson

OK. Abbreviations are OK. Killing the English language is not. There's a huge difference.


Ok any one know what the cost for summer school classes for hackettstown high are total cost and fees

Caged Animal Caged Animal
Jun '11

cbel,

First of all, it was a JOKE.

Secondly, reducing the english language to abbreviations is just fine? I think the texting thing has gotten out of control, and plays a large part in the butchery of the english language, especially amongst the younger people who's primary form of communication is now texting.

JeffersonRepub JeffersonRepub
Jun '11

CA - Are you trying to find out what it cost the taxpayers for summer classes for HHS or what they charge the students who take summer classes at HHS? There is no charge to the student, (or their parents) for remedial classes.


JR: I did get the joke, and I don't care for the abbreviating/texting phase either, but shouldn't spelling and grammar be learned even before high school?


agoggle wrote -

"It was parody, not factual --- just like your non-referenced input --- just an assumption, an opinion, a guesstimate"

yes, but my statements are based on my own observations from when I was in college and also by talking to others who went to different colleges (and at different times and generations) and so they are true, I am not making them up. yours was a reaction to mine and you honestly admit that your statements are not true that they are 'parody' to make a point about unreferenced facts.. thank you very much for your honesty. my points are still true.

I will look for the reference material on the study/surveys that were done to back up what I am reporting here. But it is true that professional academia is heavily weighted in favor of a liberal political viewpoint (from my memory of the study I read it's like 85% to 15%)

and it is my contention that this over the top liberalism affects what material gets presented in History class, and from what individual perspective it gets taught. (like Jefferson was a bad man for example, or that Lincoln was a closet gay for another example, or that the word Jihad is not 'Holy war' it is just a strong commitment to a goal,(this is a real distortion of the truth if you ask me but it is being taught to high school history students right out of the text book))

BrotherDog BrotherDog
Jun '11

cbel,

Absolutely!

JeffersonRepub JeffersonRepub
Jun '11

"What schools are you talking about? Both plumbing and IT are/were taught in schools in my area."

20-25 years ago, very few schools had the robust IT-based programs that they have today yet we have plenty of folks in successful IT careers (myself included.) Plumbing was not available in my HS (only woodshop and metal shop) and I know a few friends who are successful plumbers.

My point is that not every field is taught in school and if you think HS will provide enough, then you are going to fail.

emaxxman emaxxman
Jun '11

What I find amazing (and I remember this from my DC school trip) is how they seem to miss out on showing kids some of the most significant aspects of our US History on these trips. Yes, all the memorials are important, but I consider Ford's Theater and Mount Vernon equally as important. How these two places are not added onto the 8th grade DC trip is perplexing to me. They both have wonderful walk-through galleries especially Washington's Mt Vernon that shows life-size clay models of Washington throughout different times in History.

My nephew has a knack for US History, especially American Revolution and Civil War. I personally just went inside Ford's Theater for the first time in my life about a month ago and was fascinated by it. And it was FREE!!! If you walk through the gallery, you could spend easily a half a day there reading through all of the Lincoln/Civil War facts.

The only upside is that it now gives me an excuse to take my nephew on a proper US History tour of DC and Va which will no doubt include Mt. Vernon, Ford's Theater, Monticello, Ash Lawn, Mitchie's Tavern as well as some of the major Civil War battle sites. If I can swing it might also try Jamestown and Williamsburg as well to round out the experience.

ComputerSharp ComputerSharp
Jun '11

mrg, it's nice of you to provide a link filled with enough hopium to lift our bewildered minds! ;)
How about we look strictly at our collective (because that's what's important, the collective, right?) graduation rates and compare that with our #5 status:

http://www.higheredinfo.org/dbrowser/index.php?measure=23

Yea! NJ is doing fine at #4 in this area. But what about the rest of the country in which the average graduation rate in '08 was a puny 70%? Mind you, this is only graduation rates we're talking about, not the level of intellect of those graduates.

BrotherDog, here's another take on what I think is the same test:
http://www.higheredinfo.org/dbrowser/index.php?measure=23

justintime justintime
Jun '11

Wow, that's a lot.

jersey dutchman 2 jersey dutchman 2
Jun '11

CS - My daughter just went on the D.C. trip. They saw:
National Archives
Botanical Garden
Arlington
WW2, Korean, Vietnam, and Lincoln Memorial
Jefferson Memorial
Capital Building
Plus a few Smithsonian museums

They are basically there for only 2 days (not including the drives). There is only so much you can squeeze into the trip while also corralling 100+ students. It's not to say that the locations you mention aren't important but there are financial and physical limitations to deal with.

With that said, I'd add the White House tour and the Supreme Court before adding anything else.

emaxxman emaxxman
Jun '11

emaxxman, in response to your battery of questions, I no longer sit for exams, unless they are medically necessary.

On another note, nice school trip. I love DC.

notreally notreally
Jun '11

our 8 grade class trip was to DC we got on the bus at 2am and got home at 2 am no over nights and this was a hands on history lessen
National Archives
Botanical Garden
Arlington
WW2, Memorial
Lincoln Memorial
Jefferson Memorial
Capital Building
Plus a few Smithsonian museums

since 8th grade i have been to DC three more times
the thing that made me cry the most in side and weep a tear was the wall I have never felt anything like this its so quite and when you place your hand on it you can feel them reach out to you .Vietnam Memorial

Arlington was another thing that hit me hard in 72

All i can say is that every citizen of this country should go to DC once in their life

7th grade we went to Gettysburg and that was great years later i went again with my cousin who knows every thing about this area ( he should teach history )

Hands on learning the best

I was sad when my Nephew went to DC and when i aske him to tell me the stuff he learned he was able to tell me all about the arcade they went to good job Hackettstown school system

Caged Animal Caged Animal
Jun '11

Re: Students Stumble Again on the Basics of History

CA - Being Vietnamese myself and refugee of the war, I feel a great sense of debt to all of the lives lost in that war. My life would be incredibly different if I did not have the opportunity to come here to the US. I felt extremely emotional when I saw the vastness of names on the wall.

I took the attached pic at the wall. I was hoping to get it w/o any other visitors and only with a reflection of the Washington monument. Unfortunately, there were just too many people.

-----------------

"I was sad when my Nephew went to DC and when i aske him to tell me the stuff he learned he was able to tell me all about the arcade they went to good job Hackettstown school system"

I'm not sure what year he went but I can say that Mr. Hunter, who organized the trip for the past several years, made sure that the kids as much education as possible. My daughter raved about all of the sites they visited.

emaxxman emaxxman
Jun '11

* made sure that the kids got as much education as possible.

emaxxman emaxxman
Jun '11

for MSG - who wanted attribution for the idea that our University system is heavily wieghted with liberals - this is scary stuff to realize that these porfessors behave in this fashion - BrotherDog


By Dan Lawton / July 13, 2009
Eugene, Ore.

When I began examining the political affiliation of faculty at the University of Oregon, the lone conservative professor I spoke with cautioned that I would "make a lot of people unhappy."

Though I mostly brushed off his warning – assuming that academia would be interested in such discourse – I was careful to frame my research for a column for the school newspaper diplomatically.

The University of Oregon (UO), where I study journalism, invested millions annually in a diversity program that explicitly included "political affiliation" as a component. Yet, out of the 111 registered Oregon voters in the departments of journalism, law, political science, economics, and sociology, there were only two registered Republicans.

A number of conservative students told me they felt Republican ideas were frequently caricatured and rarely presented fairly. Did the dearth of conservative professors on campus and apparent marginalization of ideas on the right belie the university's commitment to providing a marketplace of ideas?

In my column, published in the campus newspaper The Oregon Daily Emerald June 1, I suggested that such a disparity hurt UO. I argued that the lifeblood of higher education was subjecting students to diverse viewpoints and the university needed to work on attracting more conservative professors.

I also suggested that students working on right-leaning ideas may have difficulty finding faculty mentors. I couldn't imagine, for instance, that journalism that supported the Iraq war or gun rights would be met with much enthusiasm.

What I didn't realize is that journalism that examined the dominance of liberal ideas on campus would be addressed with hostility.

A professor who confronted me declared that he was "personally offended" by my column. He railed that his political viewpoints never affected his teaching and suggested that if I wanted a faculty with Republicans I should have attended a university in the South. "If you like conservatism you can certainly attend the University of Texas and you can walk past the statue of Jefferson Davis everyday on your way to class," he wrote in an e-mail.

I was shocked by such a comment, which seemed an attempt to link Republicans with racist orthodoxy. When I wrote back expressing my offense, he neither apologized nor clarified his remarks.

Instead, he reiterated them on the record. Was such a brazen expression of partisanship representative of the faculty as a whole? I decided to speak with him in person in the hope of finding common ground.

He was eager to chat, and after five minutes our dialogue bloomed into a lively discussion. As we hammered away at the issue, one of his colleagues with whom he shared an office grew visibly agitated. Then, while I was in mid-sentence, she exploded.

"You think you're so [expletive] cute with your little column," she told me. "I read your piece and all you want is attention. You're just like Bill O'Reilly. You just want to get up on your [expletive] soapbox and have people look at you."

you can read the rest here - http://www.csmonitor.com/Commentary/Opinion/2009/0713/p09s02-coop.html

BrotherDog BrotherDog
Jun '11

CA: Perhaps the issue of what stood out about the trip for your nephew had more to do with your nephew and less to do with the school system. There is, after all, the old adage: "you can take a horse to water but you can't make him drink."


Take, take??? I thought it was "lead" not take. You see, A&W proves my point. It's leadership that's missing and our horse of a leader looks to be doing too much drinking. I take we stop these pensions and get the lead out. A&W said it all. We need more laddership.

Actually, I thought it was "you can lead Christine to water, but that isn't what she drinks?" I am confused (and no horse references or excess references intended and ---- do not try this at home....)

mistergoogle mistergoogle
Jun '11

You are right, mr.g. It is "you can LEAD a horse....". Mea culpa.


A&W
you are so right I can take a horse to water and cant make him drink.
but also wrong I can take a nephew to water and make him drink by kicking his butt and not offer a night of arcade games to play. instead the school should have offered some type of program that high lited the trip and what they saw and other places they did not see .

Caged Animal Caged Animal
Jun '11

emaxxman that was 2009

Caged Animal Caged Animal
Jun '11

"emaxxman Being Vietnamese myself and refugee of the war, I feel a great sense of debt to all of the lives lost in that war. My life would be incredibly different if I did not have the opportunity to come here to the US. I felt extremely emotional when I saw the vastness of names on the wall."

emaxxman in any war many are lost on both sides is there any Memorial of the lost lifes of Vietnamese cause they to meed to be remembered

I met a man who was a german and servered in the german army He said that he did as told and served his country wrong or right he served . and he loved is country then . later on in life he came to the US and be came a citizen . he missed germany but loved his new country every morning he would raise our flag at work and every dusk he would take down the flag .

you want to learn history do one on one with people who live in nurseing homes

you want a great law/fund a way to learn history from people who lived it and write it down

emaxxman
I know you have been here for some time But welcome to the USA

Caged Animal Caged Animal
Jun '11

CA - 2 years ago, the school took the kids to the ESPN Zone at night after their day was done (from my understanding.) It was not part of the formal itinerary. The school can be criticized for many things but the D.C. trip is not one of them. The kids are taken to many historical sites with the teachers providing educational commentary the whole time. At the same time, they are required to dress formally and pay the proper respect to locations such as Arlington Cemetery. I expect the school to excel in all tasks and this is one where they did not disappoint.

Thanks for welcome (been here since 1975).

emaxxman emaxxman
Jun '11

I knew a fellow who was from North Vietnam, family migrated sourth and then he came to the U.S. --- family must have had some money. Nonetheless, when in the North as a child, he would go to bed, the bombs would drop, he would be lifted up, moved over a few feet and dropped on the floor. He then would get up and go back to bed.

First, how do you win a war against kids who grow up in that environment? And second -- war is the worse plague on mankind by mankind and the effect goes well beyond the soldiers on the wall and not only affects and scars this kid for life, but his kids, and their kids....

I mean, stupid example but --- The Who's Tommy --- 1969 and they are writing about WWII tramas. Daltry --- 1944. Townshend --- 1945. Didn't fight, just got scared for being close. War is just really really terrible awful even for the survivors.

Teach that in history or at the monuments.

mistergoogle mistergoogle
Jun '11

Ringo remembers hiding under the kitchen table as a toddler during the Blitz.

Scared for life by the effects of war.

BrotherDog BrotherDog
Jun '11

There are so many neat things in history just here in jersey and not war related . I did some deed reviews for my street and to see how the county was all the way bact to english owners

Caged Animal Caged Animal
Jun '11

CA,
Not all the way back to New Netherlands? :)

jersey dutchman 2 jersey dutchman 2
Jun '11

NJ history.... OK how about some Warren County. I call these my history fun factiods:

Most of the folks who “discovered” the region either never came here, were looking for something else or left very, very quickly. The Indians called it "a good place for an ambush."

The first area to be settled in the county is now virtually empty and where the county is populated today was virtually empty in the 1600’s when the area was first settled.

Warren County is named for someone who was never here.

The county seat is located in Belvidere because the land was free. It is named Belvidere because the word sounds beautiful, just like the scenery.

Even though the county is landlocked and the Delaware River is not commercially passable beyond Belvidere, we have many ports like Port Murray, Port Warren, Port Colden, and Rockport.

We have the first commercial highway in the U.S. It is probably the least traveled highway in the U.S. today.

Mining was one of the first major industries in the area, followed by steel production. Many of the mining towns (Mt. Bethel) have pretty much disappeared and there are no mines today.

Oxford Furnace became the first U.S. smelting operation to use the hot blast process, while in 1859 Peter Cooper's furnace in Phillipsburg was one of the first in the U.S. to experiment with the Bessemer process and was the most productive furnace in America in the 1860’s.

One of the early settlers here was an escaped Revolutionary War prisoner from Britain. We knew he was the enemy but we let him live here anyway.

Two Mastodons were discovered here, they went to Harvard…..

mistergoogle mistergoogle
Jun '11

NJ history.... OK how about some Warren County. I call these my history fun factiods:

Most of the folks who “discovered” the region either never came here, were looking for something else or left very, very quickly. The Indians called it "a good place for an ambush."

(Shades of death road)

The first area to be settled in the county is now virtually empty and where the county is populated today was virtually empty in the 1600’s when the area was first settled.
( the area along the delaware mine rd known as paquire town ship now worthington state forrest )
Warren County is named for someone who was never here.
(true )

The county seat is located in Belvidere because the land was free. It is named Belvidere because the word sounds beautiful, just like the scenery.

(the first choice was oxford but the land was not free)



Even though the county is landlocked and the Delaware River is not commercially passable beyond Belvidere, we have many ports like Port Murray, Port Warren, Port Colden, and Rockport.

( because we had canal s we have ports )

We have the first commercial highway in the U.S. It is probably the least traveled highway in the U.S. today.

( ? )

Mining was one of the first major industries in the area, followed by steel production. Many of the mining towns (Mt. Bethel) have pretty much disappeared and there are no mines today.

(Liberty has had Mines)

Oxford Furnace became the first U.S. smelting operation to use the hot blast process, while in 1859 Peter Cooper's furnace in Phillipsburg was one of the first in the U.S. to experiment with the Bessemer process and was the most productive furnace in America in the 1860’s.

One of the early settlers here was an escaped Revolutionary War prisoner from Britain. We knew he was the enemy but we let him live here anyway.

( who)

Two Mastodons were discovered here, they went to Harvard…..

(yes one in liberty off of jenny jump rd)

Caged Animal Caged Animal
Jun '11

Caged - I'd bet even money the people pounding their fists didn't have a clue about a single thing you posted. Some things are just a breath of fresh air in an intentionally fouled glass house.


GC -- well my glass was clear. Caged, you're good, very good. Think the don's were across 46 from Johnson Road and maybe off 517 at the canel. Ambush area was really anything off the river over to Long Valley. Whole area very craggy. But our Indians were pretty darned tame, think they avoided the ambush areas..... You got the areia right (and the road!!!!) but called "the minisink," Minisink = Minsies (first Indians) = "used to be a flippin lake here" in Indian... Hey. let's build a dam and remove all the homeowners....that's why it is vacant (well, not any more thank goodness). Nice job.

Old mine road: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Old_Mine_Road

During the revolutionary war, when British prisoners were being marched and were passing between Allamuchy and Hackettstown, at Allamuchy Pond, Phillip Hoffman stepped behind the large rock, still there, and remained concealed until the guards had passed. The folks made him welcome and he settled in Independence for the rest of his life

mistergoogle mistergoogle
Jun '11

Mr G - While I'm glad you're personally keeping the Windex company alive, it wasn't the clearness of vision I was referring to. It was the wisdom of holding holding a projectile contest in the interior or releasing a cyanide fogger while the doors are locked.


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