MO budget cut
mount olive lost 2 million dollars, so i got an automated call stating that there is now a 200.00 fee for my kid to ride the bus this year. *le sigh* i dont know what im going to do. I dont have 200 dollars for them (its do at the end of the month) but at the same time loading up my infant on those cold winter mornings and afternoons is not tempting.
have any of you heard anything of hackettstowns cuts?
icicle
I heard on the radio something along the lines of the superintendent taking unpaid vacation days to save approximately 30K?? Maybe if you call the Board of Ed office they can help... Hackettstown was supposedly reorganizing the subject supervisors, but nothing in print yet. Lots of info on the Great Meadows budget. Good Luck!
Icicle - This is a charge being assessed for courtesy busing. All students residing less than 2 miles from their elementary and/or middle school and2.5 miles from MOHS will be assessed a fee of $200 for the privilege of riding a schoolbus to and from school. The fee is waived for all students that qualify for free or reduced lunches. Do you live less than 2 miles from your child's school?
If you live less than those miles that BLD stated, the districts do not have to provide busing, hence the name " courtesy busing. The district is giving parents the option of paying a fee for courtesy busing or the other option would be the district not providing the service at all. Hackettstown DOES NOT provide courtesy busing, however GM does ( at least at this point )
Laughs my ass off over this one . is this a per child fee or is that a family fee ?
Caged Animal 
Supt. taking 30k in unpaid days... boy he/she works hard! Consolidation time folks, something has got to give.
Jay that strikes me as wierd straight from the start... why would you get an automated call? wouldn't they at least send out a letter describing what is happening?
If you don't want to drive your child to school in the cold weather I would pay the $200. It about $1.20 per school day and about 60 cents per trip. We don't have bus service for the kids in Hackettstown. I can understand not wanting to take a little one out in the cold if you don't need to. That is how we do it down here though. :( I am assuming you must live in the less than two miles area if they are calling you.
youngnfresh the call was from the honeywell instant alert automated system and did explain a letter was to follow.
youngn-youre right, looking at it that way, it would be better for me to go ahead and pay for the bussing rather than take him myself. but boo to losing 200 dollars, where im even going to pull that out of i have no idea, guess ill put off some bills for it, i think thats what makes me so mad about the money is that is need it for my bills grr.
Icicle
You are not going to like what I am going to say so I warn you now .
You are going to have to talk with as many people of your township as you can and you have to rally up as many people as you can and go to the BOE and Make them provide the transportation the 2mile courtesy busing with in the buget . if the bus travels 2miles and 100th to pick up the first child out side the 2 miles what is the differance it still drove by all with in the 2miles . you want to go after the ones that make over 100k a year take the power back from the BOE Mount Olive is not a town with side walks crossing gaurds . Be strong
courtesy busing
if i am wrong but this is a state term (courtesy busing) It is 2miles that the state will not provide aid $$$ for and the state will aid the BOE for the cost of transport because the state many years ago mandated that children out side there 2mile limit had to be bused and the state still provides that aid
Also 200 per child is nuts .
and haveing all these cars on the road will cause more traffic more delays more injurys will in crease the exhaust emissions and the use of more oil . also many a mother in hackettstown will not let there kids walk for fear of the wackos out there so the school is indangering the lifes of many
Be strong Rally together every one you can
I do hate to see this in communities where there aren't safe sidewalks for the children to walk on. You need to do what parents everywhere do in this situation. Carpool. If you can share with at least one person, every other week is not awful. If you have minivans, all the better. More kids in a carpool means less days you have to drive. If that deosn't work, ask if you can pay monthly.
maja I thought most kids in Hackettstown walked to school and that busing was not an option, courtesy or not. Is busing now available to hackettstown kids if parents can afford to pay for it? My dd has been out of the school system for a long time but I hadn't realized it changed. Unfortunately, I think with all the cuts, this is only the beginning of what will be available at additional cost to parents. I had heard (not sure if it's the case) but that some school districts will be imposing large fees to kids that want to play sports in school..not much will be "free" anymore. Since I don't have a child in school, I'm not too up on what's going on.
Bessie Bessie there is no courtesy bussing in H'town. this is Mount Olive they arfe talking about.
I would get up and take my kids to save the money. Everyone has to share in the cuts. I take my kids everyday rain or shine, cold or hot.
Christine That's what I thought Christine, but Caged Animals line confused me, I thought Hackettstown had changed..
++also many a mother in hackettstown will not let there kids walk for fear of the wackos out there so the school is indangering the lifes of many++
I heard on theradio that if you have two or more kids going to the same school (such as Tinc Rd., MS or HS), there is only one $200 fee. - not per child.
copygirl Seems like to me that they would rather cut the bus than cut over payed teachers and administrators and they say its all for the children yeah right,Mt Olive people now go to the town and demand side walks and crossing guards and more police to watch the kids as they walk to school your talking more money than busing costs
I do not think bussing should be free, maybe $200/child is too much, but not free. I live in Hackettstown and my children couldn't possibly walk to school, they are young and would have to cross 517 at some point, not an option for us to walk. I drive them every morning and it's not all that bad.
tripsy I believe that the cost for bussing a child to school (within the 2 mile radius or not) is more than $200 per kid.
Think of it this way $200 x 60 kids per bus = $12,000 - that does not cover the cost of the bus driver, lease of the vehicle, insurance, maintenance, gas... etc. Think about the cost this way - school covers 180 days a year - the cost is about $1 a day. 50 cents each way.
The timing and telling you that you have such a short time to come up with $200 may be bad, but honestly, you will not save money by driving directly - if you are thinking of doing it to save money.
If you are not able to pay the $200 all at once, call the school when you get the letter and ask if you could be put on a payment schedule that meets your individual needs.
The state has the ruling that bussing under 2 miles is a courtesy. It is one of the quick budget cut items and they are taking it.
Coralie the two miles is radius figure not road length.
you can draw a cirle on the map with the two mile radius on it and every one inside that circe will loose the 'courtesy' busing!
kids can easily be made to walk 5 miles on the roads in this scenario.
say that news story last month about the 12 yeard old girl left home alone by her honeymooning mother. wasn;t that in MO? i wonder how far she has to actually walk to school.
brotherdog-the girl lived on hermanne dr, she would have to walk on rt 206 to get to the clover hill neighborhood where the mountainview school was.
i dont know what im going to do but i know one thing, my 6 yr old will NOT be walking to school, not ever.
How much is it going to cost you to start your car, warm it up and drive twice a day to the school to bring your child back and forth? More or less then $200 a year?, not to mention the general wear and tear.
What effect will you child losing the bus experience have on him/her as well?
Sometimes the school experience is about more than a few dollars (and yes, we grew up poor and had to find ways to make things work financially as well)
Honestly, I think it is less about what teachers make and more about the belief's of the general public changing. The idea is that people pay for the services they use - when they use them. Would parents rather pay for busses or compromise the quality of the education in the classroom. Taxpayers cannot hadle it all in this day and age.
Since I live in H-town we don't have a bussing option and I am happy about it. Being a teacher for years, I think half the trouble kids get into happens on the bus. Save yourself the $ and the swear words your kids would learn and drive them.
My nephew is a student at WMC and he got a letter mailed to them last week stating that any student living 2 1/2 miles away or less will have to find their own means of transportation for the 2010-2011 school year. "Courtesy busing" has been eliminated due to budget cuts, however, 850 per student, per year MAY possibly be an option if transportation if necessary...but that hasn't been committed to yet.
WMC is a separate entity from the elementary schools though, I think because it's "West Morris Regional" including Mendham and Long Valley....Haven't heard anything about the elementary schools
Look Mt Olive people force your township to keep the buses on the road remember the BOE works for you they do not own you fight it
The WT K-8 school system is a separate school district from the West Morris Regional High School school district. The K-8 school district in Long Valley will continue to offer courtesy busing.
$200 a year is a big deal? Is anyone out there saving $200 to $300 a MONTH per child from birth for college?
In the Know
Ther just trying to punish the voters because thats what they want you to do keep the money flowing into the school system uncheck well watch out BOEs we re watching
what ever happened to walking 5 miles up hill both ways through 3 feet of snow? - that's what I did when I was young!
kurt West Morris Regional High School District has done away with courtesy busing. According to the article it will affect approx. 500 students, (out of approx. 3000 kids in the district). They haven't determined a charge for those students who want to be bused because it will depend on how many kids sign up and where they are but it could range from $200-800/student per year. As I mentioned above the Washington Township, (Morris County) K-8 district will continue to offer courtesy busing -
http://www.recordernewspapers.com/articles/2010/07/16/observer-tribune/news/doc4c3df81098399326536664.txt
Icicle - Consider yourself "lucky" - West Morris Regional High School District is charging $600 per student for courtesy busing - http://www.recordernewspapers.com/articles/2010/07/30/observer-tribune/news/doc4c51dfc97d5fe610555080.txt. It is high school however...the BOE president's daughter is within the 2 mile circle but she said her daughter never took the bus because it "was the kiss of death for a high school kid to take the bus".
FYI- Mark Werner, the Board president, said at last week's Board meeting that if the budget fails again in Mount Olive, bussing will raise from 200$ to 600$.
MO teacher
I dont beleave he would say that
ever heard the term road out of town on a rail ,
You don't have to believe it. He said it at the PUBLIC Board meeting. Find someone from the PUBLIC who was there and ask them.
It's ridiculous to charge for this. It is a town that has loads of streets without sidewalks, no crossing guards to be found, many streets without adequate lighting and wildlife to boot. My daughter isn't old enough to go to school yet, so fortunately I don't have to worry at the moment. My friends son is in the HS and she is LIVID! They should cut another overpaid employee and fund the busing with that!
antimony You've got $100 in your pocket. You want to buy $200 worth of stuff. What are you going to do?
justintime "They should cut another overpaid employee and fund the busing with that!"
---------
BULLSH*T!!! You are telling me that someone should lose their job just so your friend doesn't have to drive her TEENAGE son to school?! Tell your friend to suck it up.
I drive my kids to school everyday. Growing up, my parents had only one car and my dad was at work before I even woke up. My mom either walked us to school or we walked ourselves. I walked whether it was freezing cold, rainy, or 90+ degrees.
Every morning I see congregations of parents in their giant SUV's sitting at bus stops blocking up local streets while waiting for the bus. Tell me why these parents can't just drop their kids off at school themselves at that point?
emaxxman ...Not to mention it isn't the school's responsibility to get your child to school. That is why it is called courtesy busing
Nicholas Off course e... My mom grew up on a farm in the midwest and walked to a one-room school (@ 2 miles) unless it was twenty below zero; then her father would drive the kids to school on the tractor. People wonder why kids are overweight and have diabetes in large numbers today.
"...Not to mention it isn't the school's responsibility to get your child to school. That is why it is called courtesy busing
Nicholas "
The state Mandates that children past a set numbers of miles from there school will be bussed at a cost to the school system and the state will aid in that mandated cost and still are , the courtesy bussing cost was at the expence of the school system . amd still should be now the people should go to the school board and say find the money with in the buget or look for a new job .
Lesson learned.......buy house more than two and one half miles from schools. It worked for us.
Ashby Unfortunately, the people that need that busing will now have to pay or figure something out. I think you will be able to add the busing cost to the other costs that will hit people in their own pockets.
btownguy I honestly dont get the busing thing. I took my kids to school everyday. Its something you just have to do in life.
And if the school can't foot the bill anymore because of cuts, you have to pay for it if you need it. We never had busing in Hackettstown so I had to make sure my dd got to school on my own. I wish I had courtesy busing when she was in grammar school but we didn't. You just have to do what you have to do. I understand it may be hard for some (as it would have been for me). but when the mantra is cut spending, cut spending, you have to expect that personally you will be affected somewhere along the line, it's just the beginning.
Ok so the way I put it came out harsh and insensitve. Point taken. Yeah she can and does drive, and will drive her kid to school. Many of us in MO are just superfed up with the taxes being hiked up and seeing so little in return. The school budget is a great source of agnst for many of us -- I guess I am just so fed up with the unions and the overall crap that I see going on. There has been a lot of teacher whining in my community lately and it's starting to grate on me - especially since we could have gotten funding had they cappped their salaries here for 1 year. That and I just opened my tax bill.....
I can't help but take offense. I know this is not going to go over well but 'teacher whining' really is offensive. If you don't know well, or love a teacher you really have no idea. Our lives are not bad at all ... but we have become PUBLIC ENEMY NUMBER ONE in the past year and it is just mean and uncalled for. This state has problems which go far past the decent salary a teacher makes... and since when was that a sin... to make a fair and decent salary doing a meaningful job you love.
Do you know if you have one child in the public schools you pay approximately $4.00 an hour for them to be cared for and educated? If you have two children it is $2.00 and well it is cents if you have three or more children. It costs more to have your dog boarded. Do the math the info is all on public record. Contact the super in MO he has the math down to a 'T'
Oh and capping the salaries for teachers would have hurt MO in the end... since it is such a huge district that freeze would have blown the state cap next year and the district would have been in worse shape then. This was all clearly explained at the June BOE meeting.
I got my tax bill and it is painful, but I have two kids who will attend the Hackettstown Schools and it is the way it is. There is no free ride in this world. The education of your children is not free, neither are their clothes, food or ipods.
For the cost of an ipod, a yes vote would have avoided this whole mess and put the schools in a much better position.
well then how about this we do away with all the bus ing and every one has to take there kids wow look at the trafic jams and green house gas , and all those suvs and mini vans hears the horns toot thats my spot in line
antimony - funding for what? Despite what the press may lead you to believe, a pay cut in a district will not net "millions".
Base salary is not the problem outside of Supervisors, Superintendents, and those working for 3 decades or more. The problems (and solutions) are:
1) The pension system is a political joke. When it was created they used 8.75% as the average annual investment income return, when historically this figure was around 4%. The money paid into the system by teachers is very small given the future return. The system needs to be grandfathered with most of the current teachers going to a matched 401k.
2) Free healthcare and then free healthcare during retirement. This is an excessive benefit. Soon teachers will pay a small amount which is a step in the right direction. The healthcare during retirement has to be eliminated.
they need a traffic light at the intersection where the road to willow grove st school is
Emily... I beg to differ...some people do get free education, and I think that is what people are upset about. It will be interesting to see what happens to the MO population of families on public assistance - welfare, etc. Will they get free rides? I live in Hackettstown and bringing my kids to school was always good, I got a chance to meet their friends and siblings. If one kid is sleeping, just put them in the car seat and go. I guess if you are schedulized it is a little harder. Good luck!
Emily, I proudly voted no for the budget and I have my reasons. I stick by them too. The busing needs to stay and they need to make other cuts. There are lots of families who have one car and that car is used by the parent(s) to get to work sometimes earlier than school starts. That is just an example of one situation I know of. This is not the type of community where it is always safe for our kids to walk to school - no lights, bear, no sidewalks --- just too many hazards. It's not like it was when our parents (or even us for that matter) had to walk to school. It just isn't. Also, it's not exactly fair (or even really relevant for that matter) to drag emotions into the mix. What difference does it make if I love a teacher, know a teacher, etc? It doesn't. How do you know I don't? Just because I disagree does not change my stance on the matter. I tend to agree more with Jay on this matter. We need to get rid of the unions and unfortunately its going to be a tough road to do that. Right now it is coming down to the district looking for all other ways other than teacher or program cuts. That is my opinion however misguided you might feel it is.
emily, jay is spot on once again. here is the problem , it is one of a feeling of self-entitlement. (see below) BrotherDog
Milwaukee teachers fight for Viagra drug coverage
By RYAN J. FOLEY, Associated Press Writer Ryan J. Foley, Associated Press Writer – Fri Aug 6, 10:31 am ET
MADISON, Wis. – With the district in a financial crisis and hundreds of its members facing layoffs, the Milwaukee teachers union is taking a peculiar stand: fighting to get its taxpayer-funded Viagra back.
The union has asked a judge to order the school board to again include Pfizer Inc.'s erectile dysfunction drug and similar pills in its health insurance plans.
The filing is the latest in a two-year legal campaign in which the union has argued, so far unsuccessfully, that the board's policy of excluding erectile dysfunction drugs discriminates against male employees. The union says Viagra, Cialis, Levitra and others are necessary treatment for "an exclusively gender-related condition."
But lawyers for the school board say the drugs were excluded in 2005 to save money, and there is no discrimination because they are used primarily for recreational sex and not out of medical necessity.
The filing last month comes as the union, the Milwaukee Teachers' Education Association, is also protesting hundreds of layoff notices issued to teachers for the coming school year. Citing a "financial crisis" caused by exploding benefit costs and revenue shortfalls, the district's outgoing superintendent proposed laying off 682 employees in April.
The district gave layoff notices to 482 teachers in June, but recalled 89 of them last month. Additional teachers may be called back, but these are still the first layoffs of Milwaukee teachers in decades.
At least one lawmaker questioned why the union is fighting for Viagra while teachers are losing their jobs. A consultant for the school board has estimated that reinstating the drug benefit would cost $786,000 per year — the cost to keep perhaps a dozen first-year teachers employed.
State Rep. Jason Fields argues that the money could be better spent any number of ways — including saving jobs.
"You've got to be kidding me," said Fields, a Milwaukee Democrat. "The fact that is the point of contention is kind of frightening. What are our priorities? I'm all for love and peace. But almost 1 million dollars? And you go to court over this issue?"
Union spokeswoman Kris Collett declined comment. But its lawyer Barbara Quindel said the case was worth fighting despite the district's grim finances. Quindel said erectile dysfunction is associated with heart disease, prostate cancer and other conditions, and the drugs are approved by the Food and Drug Administration and recommended by the American Urological Association.
"MTEA believes that men should not be discriminated against in receiving treatment for their medical conditions," she said.
The union has argued the costs are tiny compared to the $1.3 billion annual budget. But the school board says they are "particularly burdensome" when it is under pressure to reduce benefit costs.
That the pills — which can cost $20 apiece without insurance — were included in the first place is somewhat unusual. Health insurer Aetna Inc., which provides one of the district's two plans, says its standard pharmacy plans exclude Viagra and other "drugs for lifestyle enhancement or performance."
Basic state employee health plans also generally don't cover those drugs, but more expensive premium plans might, said Dick Cauchi, who tracks health benefits at the National Conference of State Legislatures. Lisa Soronen, National School Boards Association senior staff attorney, also said she had never heard of a similar case or an example of a union negotiating coverage for erectile dysfunction drugs.
"If you are getting down to what drugs are covered, you are really getting in the weeds," she said, explaining most negotiations are over premiums and co-payments.
Board and union negotiators reached a deal in 2002 to cover six tablets per month for erectile dysfunction drugs in health plans that insure 10,000 employees, dependents and retirees. They quickly became popular.
By 2004, the number of claimants receiving prescriptions skyrocketed to more than 1,000 per year, costing the district $207,000. During negotiations in 2005, the board proposed eliminating the benefit and an arbitrator adopted the plan.
The union in 2008 filed a sex discrimination complaint with the state. In June, the Labor and Industry Review Commission ruled the union couldn't pursue the case without identifying employees who have been injured by the policy and the complaint was filed after the statute of limitations expired.
The union is asking a Milwaukee County Circuit Court judge to overturn that decision and declare the policy violates the Wisconsin Fair Employment Act. A ruling isn't expected for months.
Viagra is usually on the other side in discrimination cases. In recent years, several lawsuits have claimed that employer health plans discriminate against women when they cover Viagra but not contraceptives or infertility treatment.
But the Milwaukee union says males are treated unfairly here. In one brief, its lawyers argued that vaginal cream, anti-bacterial medicine and estrogen replacement medication for female sexual dysfunction are covered. Other options such as penile pumps and implants included in the plans "are far less desirable than oral medication," the filing said.
District spokesman Philip Harris said school officials won't comment because "we just want to leave it alone." But Miriam Horwitz, an attorney representing the board, argued in court filings the drugs weren't necessary to treat life-threatening disease or have children.
So for those of you stating you have one car... do you also have neighbors? What's the matter with a good old fashioned Carpool? Why have one parent drive one kid when a parent could drive four and save gas and the environment as well?
I do understand many believe the union is corrupt and that healthcare is an issue. The bill has already been passed that teachers will start paying into their benefits when new contracts start so that is changing. As for entitlement, the viagra article is nuts ... when I first started teaching (15 years ago) my birth control pills were not covered because they were considered an 'option' by myself and not medically necessary. I never whined or complained I just paid for it.
Antimony - they have cut the busses and it is not going to change. While I understand the problems you are talking about the fact remains that it is a done deal. MO's budget this year was 80% employee salaries. The only thing else left to cut was people. MO also cut all the extra department heads and several administrators last year. It is a big district and the $ is going to pay the people who are needed to care for so many children and buildings.
And finally, while I appreciate that this has been a polite discussion, the fact is teachers have been really dragged through the mud this spring. My comment about if you know or love a teacher was emotionally driven and honest. I am the first teacher in my family. Before I became a teacher my parents regularly voted no for our hometown budget always worried about making ends meet. My whole family always comments that they really had no idea how hard the job was or how many hours teachers really work. While I don't feel sorry for myself because I know I make a good living, I have just been horrified by all the implications about our salaries and our role in the destruction of the state budget. The state is a mess, but you can hardly blame one group of people for it ... just as a one year freeze could not have saved MO from its problems.
btownguy, yes that is certainly an option people could explore. May not work for everyone though. Personally, I don't ever let anyone that is not an immediate family member drive my daughter anywhere - lack of carseats, extra liability for them, too many issues!!! Anyway, while a carpool is a lovely idea in theory, it doesn't really address the root problem of the budget and the trickled down effect of the busing cuts. At the end of the day, all I really wanna know is why MO residents are paying 96k for a kindgarten teacher (@ Sandshore Elementary) and will have no busing available. Unless we shell out 200 bucks. Right now, I am a SAHM so for me to drive my daughter it is not an issue. I realize everyone is not this lucky.
Emily, you are paid by the taxpayers which is why you are such a big target today. Private companies adjust costs all of the time. I work for a large healthy company, but to meet profit expectations from the stockholders cuts have been made to employees and benefits over the past many years.
Look around... few get free or subsidized healthcare in retirement any more. Pensions, I personally know of only one across this great nation.
Tenure, who has such job security today?
We can go on and on on this forever. Eventually everyone must wake up and realize that we must keep a budget that is affordable.
Emily , you sound like a decent caring person, but it is not the state budget as much as it is our local property tax rates. the school budget represents about 70% of my property tax bill.
when i bring up questions about it in my town i get treated very poorly by the unionized teachers who are eiter telling me to just 'suck it up' or to leave town if i can't 'afford' my taxes.
so you're darned right that i get passionate about how we can save money in the school system. it *IS* completely otu of control and needs to regined i.
moving the april sholl elections to be on the November ballot is a good start at reigning in the excesses of our public school system budgets.
BrotherDog
I know moving the elections to Nov. has been considered. An honest question: do you think schools can put together an accurate budget so far ahead of time? State funding is not estimated until Feb/March or later, and this has a big impact on school budgets. Could a district have an accurate picture of program needs/state funding/etc. a full year ahead of time?
I have to agree with brotherdog . "when i bring up questions about it in my town i get treated very poorly by the unionized teachers who are eiter telling me to just 'suck it up' or to leave town if i can't 'afford' my taxes."
we did let the cost of education get out of hand but to tell me to move out of the home i worked hard for no way. so we have find ways cut back and stream line the cost. find other ways to fund it .
noname - Personally I think as long as you know when the deadline is, you have enough time to create what ever is needed. When it comes to elections, the budget is not necessarily related to the election so I don't even think the issue is a matter of timing. Either you can create a reasonable budget or you can't. Either you can do the job and should be elected, or you can't. I'm not sure a change in time will be so effective in curtailing spending, I don't see the choice of what is as important as who. That said, I completely support Nov school board elections to coincide with political elections. Not because it somehow changes the spending as it just simplifies the process and becomes a more inclusive election. For sure school boards are the forgotten and unappreciated part of our tax bill. And more public involvement in that can only be a positive factor, which is the reason to conduct concurrent elections in November.
GC Emily
Please understand we have no bad feeling for the teachers , Boe , and suport staff Personaly its the system that we have to rebuild
I do think that moving the election to Nov. would increase the number of voters. As an educator, if the budget in the district in which I work is defeated, I look at it as the will of the community. As the election stands, however, the turnout is usually poor, so I do favor elections in Nov. for that reason. It also may improve awareness of the candidates for the BOE, another positive. There would also be a savings, albeit a small one, in the cost of elections if they were consolidated. It is just the budget issue that is a drawback to me, but if the state government cooperated as far as their committment to funding that early in the year, it would all be a win-win.
Nope - no bus drivers in the family. Wish there were though - I could stand some chauffering around these days :) hahahahah.
November elections woud be MUCH better.
"At the end of the day, all I really wanna know is why MO residents are paying 96k for a kindgarten teacher (@ Sandshore Elementary) and will have no busing available"
...because they've been teaching for almost 40 years? Is it not acceptable to expect teachers to have reached a higher level of income after almost half a century in education?
I think that despite our opinions one way or the other that the system needs to be fixed. You've got younger teachers like Emily here who are more hip to what's going on and more understanding of a community's needs and then you've got the "Old Guard" who are probably heavily involved or even in charge of the union that say "I was given this when I start and I want it until I leave".
There are more and more young teachers that are in it because it is what they want to do and because they have a passion and are willing to make changes, contribute to benefits and consider other options... and those are the first ones cut when the budget goes south. So, if anything, don't attack all teachers - attack the old guard and those that give the good ones bad names. It's like attacking all Europeans for what Hitler did.
Capped at 80k sounds more reasonable to me (and then COLA increases only). But when you remove the Pension and other perks the loss would be more than 16k, probably over 30k.
Don't expect anyone IN the system to help in its defeat. The same goes for Firefighters and Police; the retire after 20 years is not affordable and hard to justify today with a large percentage of the population having virtually no retirement savings.
hitler ? teachers unions?
great association, btownguy, i kinda like it!
yes to your points about the old gard will readily sacrifice the younger ones for their own selfish reasons, and they have done so all around the state this year by not saving the young ones jobs by agreeeing to a pay freeze. just shameful really. they have demonstrated quite clearly that it is not about the children, but it is about how much they can get for themselves first.
Really how much should a teacher make after almost 40 years of service and a masters degree?
Everyone says they make too much. I will say that she may be overqualified for a kindergarten teacher position. I don't know what the perfect salary is to make everyone stop complaining.
I have no issues driving my child to school here in town. I think the other towns should get used to the fact that some changes are going to happen. Taking your children is part of the process. Funny how people complain about something so basic. They want their kids to be educated but don't want to pass budgets. The bus ride is not a part of the education. So if I lived in MO I would prefer to have my tax money go towards the actual education rather than the ride to the school.
"At the end of the day, all I really wanna know is why MO residents are paying 96k for a kindgarten teacher (@ Sandshore Elementary) and will have no busing available"
...because they've been teaching for almost 40 years? Is it not acceptable to expect teachers to have reached a higher level of income after almost half a century in education?
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It is not acceptable if the salary cannot be tied to performance or some other measurement that demonstrates my children are receiving a proper education. Contractual pay raises (and employement where tenured teachers are concerned), regardless of merit, do nothing but further reinforce a culture of complacency.
If my child got a B in science in 2nd grade, would you automatically give them an A in 3rd grade simply because a year had passed by?
At the same time, your pay should be an indication of your job requirements and level. My salary will top out unless I demonstrate that I have the skills to move to the next job level and actually move into that next job position.
I would consider it a luxury to have bussing within a 2 mile radius, and as such if you would like to use this service you need to pay for it like all other luxuries in life. And It should not be included in the school budget. Think of it this way: Why should a tax payer in a town that has no childrern in a school system be paying for courtesy busing? The State won't.
And $200 for 180 round trips does not seem like enough, so a portion of this must already be in the budget and they are looking to recover some of the expense. Be happy that they did not do away with the service completely.
" just shameful really. they have demonstrated quite clearly that it is not about the children, but it is about how much they can get for themselves first."
See? Despite our different cliffs there is a little bridge between ;-)
I think the "saving jobs" line is just that a line. It depends on the district. A friend of mine works in a school in Sussex County. If everyone in the district had taken a pay freeze, they would have saved 85% of one job. Sure, in other districts it may be more, but in general, I think it would not have saved as many jobs as the anti-NJEA crowd would have liked you to think. I'm not saying I'm in support of no pay freeze, I'm just calling out propaganda and exaggeration used against.
"Everyone says they make too much. I will say that she may be overqualified for a kindergarten teacher position. I don't know what the perfect salary is to make everyone stop complaining. "
First off, teachers don't say "I want to teach 6th grade next year!". They're told what they're going to teach based on need. So perhaps this individual was a great upper level teacher and they decided they needed them at the Kindergarten level. Again, citing my friend, had a great 8th grade teacher (figurehead of the school and a big favorite) moved to Kindergarten for next year because that's what the district needs.
"It is not acceptable if the salary cannot be tied to performance or some other measurement that demonstrates my children are receiving a proper education. "
Okay and how would one measure that level of achievement? As I've said before, everyone is quick to say "Teachers must be accountable" (which I agree) but no one ever says "...and this is what I think we should do". Teacher accountability and pay tied to performance is the new buzz-word - everyone throws it around just to get support or make a point, but they have no way of backing up their point.
That is true that they are put where they are needed as that is happening now with the budget cuts. The low teachers on the totem pole are the ones making $40,000 and the ones to go bye-bye. Although she may have always taught that level. I am not saying it is easy to deal with 5 year olds by any means or that you don't need a masters. My point was it adds to her value as well as her years. I am not anti teachers. Just want to know what # will make people stop complaining about how much they make. It keeps falling back on teachers wages when that has nothing to do with a bus ride. :)
youngnfresh - "Just want to know what # will make people stop complaining about how much they make." You must know by now what the forum is like. If they were paid $1.50 an hour people would say it's an outrage and should be paid $1.25. There are those around that are so unhappy in their own personal situations they feel the need to use this place as their own dumping ground. So long as you're a reasonable person forget what "people" decide and go with what you know to be right. You don't need to justify yourself.
Let's see, how about the teacher progressed to more difficult instruction or the salary should be capped at some point. That is how it works in the private sector. In fact, my 80k figure may be high. Many would argue 60k, want more teach high school courses.
The taxpayers are tired of the manipulation of the system. The absurd cases have been addressed first, such as the pensions for part time employees going forward.
You are right GC. Thanks. I am not a teacher but I do know a few in the family and they are not making the large sums. I guess as the years go on they will. I get the points about teachers having to deal with the recession as we all have to. The lack of courtesy bussing is the sign of the times. It would make more sense to me if people were upset if they lived miles and miles away. I grew up going on a bus to school. I did live far from the schools. I don't mind driving my kids . Another pro to it is you don't have to worry about missing the bus! Haha! If there are people in a situation where they can't then yes a carpool is a good idea. Many of the parents in Hackettstown do that. I understand some would not want someone else driving their children so then they will have to drive their own kids.
"There are those around that are so unhappy in their own personal situations they feel the need to use this place as their own dumping ground."
Hmm, that's a bit presumptuous GC, lumping everyone into a miserable bucket because they don't see things your way. Just curious to know how you've come to that conclusion, what facts you've used to steer your views? lol, I know - you don't have to justify yourself. But neither does anyone else. I say the system has to change and am willing to be vocal about it: Does that make me a miserable curmudgeon GC? :)
IMHO a Master's degree accounts for very little at the elementary school level and is used 99.9% of the time to justify a larger salary rather that providing additional benefit to a kindergartners education. What is it the kids will learn from the Master's educated teacher - exit grade K understanding the theory of general relativity? ;)
There used to be a time, way back in the day, when salary was commensurate with the level of difficulty of the job at hand, and the number of people qualified to perform a task had at least an indirect correlation to the pay scale. While my kids had very good Kindergarten teachers, IMO their most important skill was interpersonal (how they controlled the classroom and thus the children's behavior) - not educational. Anyway, I can see why someone would question a $90k teacher as that's still a lot of money (to some, anyway) for a job that requires more social skills than educational knowledge.
But these discussions mostly miss the point, which is that compensation in the current system is currently negotiated via contract as opposed to being based on performance. Is it hard to see why there is animosity when the public has no salary (or job security) guarantees yet is asked on a consistent basis to pay more and more and more for public workers who do? That's not being unhappy, that's called "minding the store". Anyway, IMO there is too much focus on teachers anyway. The great majority do earn their pay and that shouldn't be our focus. Rules and regulations from "on high" need to be eliminated by first getting rid of the Federal Education Department and second by scaling back the NJ state education mandates.
Jay - "That is how it works in the private sector." Capped salaries? That lacks any credibility at all. If that were true Gates and Ellison wouldn't earn a billion $ a year, and the head of Chrysler wouldn't get a $50mill stock option while the company loses money. Totally unbelievable.
JIT - If I had lumped everyone into a bucket (miserable or not), you'd be right. I used the phrase "there are those". It's equivalent to "some people", or maybe "some of us". Luckily I do believe those individuals are even less than a minority, it's a select few. And it's not about people that don't see it my way, I was specifically talking about people who would complain even if their life was golden. (and that means it's about how they see their lives) I believe we're really in agreement about the need for change, fewer mandates, and performance based pay. The biggest shame is that most of the "rank and file" teachers are for merit pay but their reps won't go for it. Like any other profession, "good" ones deserve more. "Bad" ones deserve to be unemployed.
GC, Gates and Ellison were founders so they deserve what they have. The head of Chrysler is not, so I agree that he does not deserve such a high level of compensation.
I wasn't talking about executive compensation which is ridiculous or a founders compensation. What if Bensi's goes nationwide with 1000 locations; would not the founding family deserve the money?
What I was talking about is private sector non-executive pay for professionals. There are pay grades and as you increase pay grades your compensation goes up as does your responsibility/abilities/etc. In the Kindergarten example, this teacher should have been capped unless she was willing to teach more difficult classes -- high school, AP, etc. The taxpayers should be paying the "going rate", not the "stretching" of compensation by a long term employee.
"Let's see, how about the teacher progressed to more difficult instruction or the salary should be capped at some point. That is how it works in the private sector. In fact, my 80k figure may be high. Many would argue 60k, want more teach high school courses."
Jay, so does that mean, because she's been deemed the best qualified Kindergarten teacher based on availability, that she should take a pay cut for the years she teaches?
"IMHO a Master's degree accounts for very little at the elementary school level and is used 99.9% of the time to justify a larger salary rather that providing additional benefit to a kindergartners education. "
Who said the degree was earned as a Kindergarten teacher? Perhaps it served very well for the education of Grade 2 and up. Does that mean the degree should be discounted when teaching grades that you think it might not apply for?
Justintime... you could not be more wrong in many ways. When I started teaching I inched up cents each year while my husband's salary, my brother's salary and his wife's salary in the private sector jumped and leaped. I know of no one in my family working in private or corporate whose salaries are capped. In the private sector, you also have the opportunity to leave one job, sell yourself somewhere else and make more. Now in this economy that is not happening right now, but whether the economy is good or bad public employees cannot do that.
Also, there are people who have PhD's in Early Childhood Education. Teaching kindergarten is not about having good social skills. It is about understanding the growth and development of children. It is about having a room full of little people - some can read and some cannot recognize a letter... meeting their academic needs and making them all feel OK about themselves. It's also about recognizing signs of Learning Disabilities, Developmental Disabilities and even at times medical issues. I pray that my children have good experienced Kindergarten teachers and they are worth every penny. Why should a Kindergarten teacher not make that kind of money? A teacher with that many years is an expert and should not have to progress to what the public perceives as more difficult instruction.
Just because you once went to school does not make you an expert in education. Teaching young children is not easier and being an expert in what you do should be valued and respected.
Thanks GC, you are so right. No matter what it is, someone would not like it. I know I am 15 years in and changes are coming - which is fine. However, I would love to come to some other people's job, watch through the window and then decide if I think they deserve what they make.... ridiculous.
Jobs should compensate for relevant education and experience. Would a doctorate in education be relevant to a cashier position at Walmart; would this person make any more than a HS graduate? Should this person make more than a HS graduate when the job is a cashier...
Jay
Here we go again. It is getting OLD. Did you ever hear of the saying, Everythig I learned, I learned in Kindergarten? Get real! Kdg teachers need every bit as much a masters if they wish as a HS teacher! You really do need to go and volunteer some time at a public school or even better a special needs school to actually SEE where your money goes. You will be surprised! It would do you some good, so may be you would stop complaining about my salary and the salaries of my fellow teachers. We are professionals whether you want us to be or not! Get over it!
"Jobs should compensate for relevant education and experience."
Agreed and how is a doctorate or masters degree irrelevant for early childhood?
Oh and the teachers I know that have their Doctorate - they are paid on the Masters plus 30 salary step because there is no step for the Doctorate. People know that before they finish their education but they still get it knowing there will be no extra money compensated to them, because they WANT to and feel the need to, in order to do the best job they can.
One more thing. If you had voted FOR the budget you probably would not have lost courtesy busing and maybe saved some teacher jobs too. The Boards cut their budgets drastically but had to cut even more when it didn't pass. If you want courtesy busing back next year, attend the Board of Ed meetings this year, let them know and get out and vote!
btownguy:
"Who said the degree was earned as a Kindergarten teacher? Perhaps it served very well for the education of Grade 2 and up. Does that mean the degree should be discounted when teaching grades that you think it might not apply for?"
Obviously I don't know for sure, but the only highly paid Kindergarten teacher at Sandshore has a masters degree. IMO though, most masters degrees in education have little impact in the classroom at the elementary level. Of course this is simply my opinion, so take it for what it's worth.
Emily, believe it or not I'm on your side here! I never said anything about "capping" salaries. I did, however, imply that most jobs have an inherent salary limit that is based on the number of people who are qualified (or have the potential to be qualified should there be enough competition) for a job.
"Teaching young children is not easier and being an expert in what you do should be valued and respected."
No, teaching young children is not easy. As a parent who values education above almost all else i definitely agree with you there. But it isn't exactly rocket science either: How much of the population could become a rocket scientist versus becoming a teacher? Similarly, how many people could become a hairstylist versus become a teacher? Also, I don't think that respect is an issue either as I respect and value my barber as much as I do the rocket scientist or teacher. Would i pay my barber $100 an hour because he's the best at what he does though? Not likely, mostly for the reasons stated above.
doctorate cashier should make 80k a year .
"Emily
However, I would love to come to some other people's job, watch through the window and then decide if I think they deserve what they make.... ridiculous."
Well you can do that you could follow around say the road Dept a round watch if they are doing the job and then decide if there pay is to high cause they are public employees and you have the right to say that they are over or under payed an voice your self cause you can
Discussing the pay of currently working teachers misses the boat. The real problem is the financial burden caused by continuing to pay and provide benefits to every former teacher who is no longer teaching. There would be no issue if taxpayers only had to fund the school staff who are actually working.
What do you think bankrupted GM? They agreed to every union demand and the health care and legacy costs became too much to handle. GM essentially turned into a health care administrator that made automobiles on the side.
Now, states and municipalities are facing the same tipping point thanks to union demands for greater and unending benefits. Like any ponzi scheme, it works great for awhile and the people who get in first and toward the middle often make out fine. When the burden of paying returns becomes unsustainable because the exponential amount of money needed to keep the scheme afloat dries up, the whole thing collapses.
Congress is being called back into session to pass a rescue package to save union teaching jobs. Where is that money coming from? Printed? Borrowed? It's another band aid designed to prolong what is simply unsustainable and the tab being handed to the children who the unions claim to care so much about.
RJ You couldn't pay me enough to teach kindergarten. The material may seem "simple" however the job is physically and emotionally draining.
HS teachers may be teaching "harder" material, but they teach the same material repeatedly through the day.
Both are necessary to the education of the students. Just saying.
"Obviously I don't know for sure, but the only highly paid Kindergarten teacher at Sandshore has a masters degree. IMO though, most masters degrees in education have little impact in the classroom at the elementary level. Of course this is simply my opinion, so take it for what it's worth."
And do you know what their Masters degree is in? It could be something very relevant to Early Childhood Education - or it could not. No point in harping on the individual until we know.
"How much of the population could become a rocket scientist versus becoming a teacher? "
That should read "becoming a good teacher" and you'll have similar numbers.
How much does a rocket scietist make? he he... all good points btownguy.
We could go in circles as Cagedanimal said we have to right to state our opinions and I have done that.
Hopefully, this will be a more harmonious school year than last and some agreements can be reached for the future.
See the MO kiddies in September ;) and I'll be dropping my first born off at Kindergarten!
Jay-
Just because the subject matter is more difficult does not mean the job of teaching it is inherently more 'difficult'. A high school teacher can't teach AP English to students that didn't learn to read in K-3rd grade. I do teach higher level high school courses, but I wouldn't know how to begin to teach a kindergarden student how to write correctly, begin reading, etc. A friend of mine teaches 1st graders that don't even know how to hold a book properly and she teaches them to read. To me, that is astounding! (Yes, she has a master's degree in reading that has benefitted her and her students) Just because it is a 'simpler' skill does not mean it is easy to teach to a young child that has never seen anything like it before.
emily,
how does that schedule work? you are a full time teacher for 15 years yet you have the flexibility in your schedule to drop your kid off at kindergarten at the appropriate time?
I can share with you that most of us in the private sector would be told to make other arrangements and that our presence in the office (or at our place of work) was required at work times. there is no give and take just because we happen to have family needs with young children to manage as well.
and yes public workers on the public payroll that is funded by taxes charged to the public are under a public microscope. you don't have to teach if you value your privacy, you can chose another profession.
if you were able to view folks working in the private sector and try to decide if the salary meets the work required you may find that the majority of them right now are being over-worked and under paid. this is an epidemic in our society right now. it is exacerbated by the huge influx of cheap foreign labor who have entered the country legally and illegally.
so sad to say as you are a caring and sincere college educated professional who is charged with educating the next generation of leaders, but . . . . . .
Welcome to the new normal. Welcome to the new millenium. It is a harsher reality than our parents had for sure, and it is likely to be harsher for our children than it has been for us.
We are going of on a tangent. A lot of studies are showing the great importance of earlier learning. That being said we are talking about compensation. No longer do we have "open checkbooks". I am for people being compensated for experience/education/skills relevant to employment. This is not what unions are about. Unions are about getting the "most" for its members. For instance, the NJEA exists to get the best compensation/condition for its members; its primary goal is not about how to better teach children.
Brother Dog I am a teacher and I took my children to school. Here is how I did it. When in Hatchery they went to breakfast club. I dropped them off just before 8 so I could get to work on time. We in Hackettstown are fortunate that we have full time Kdg. My children then went to a babysitter or to aftercare at Hatchery. In the Middle School, they start earlier than Hatchery so I dropped them off and went to work. Same for HS. It is workable if your job starts later than the kids do, but the breakfast club really helped. They have it in the Middle School too. We in H'town never had busing so we had to make other arrangements from the start. I know the other towns are not used to this but it can be done. It is hard and wish all good luck. I wouldn't want something I counted on to be taken away from me either.
If other schools do not have a breakfast club,parents may want to look into this with their school districts. You have to pay for breakfast, but you have the piece of mind knowing you dropped them at school safely.
Brother Dog,
I drop my son off at Breakfast Club at 7:45... and go to my school 15 minutes away. I am there in plenty of time for my 8:30 start time. I have no flexibility in my job. I work 8:30 - 3:40 and 4:40 on Mondays. I cannot leave early or come late, I have a classroom full of students who arrive on time everyday!
No complaints, just giving you the schedule since you asked.
Not quite sure what that had to do with anything.
...."so sad to say as you are a caring and sincere college educated professional who is charged with educating the next generation of leaders, but . . . . . ."
I began commenting here to merely share some of what I know and defend what I see as a noble profession. If you don't think I am caring or sincere... I really don't care.
I'm a bit behind the conversation - I'll just respond to the question posed to me:
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"It is not acceptable if the salary cannot be tied to performance or some other measurement that demonstrates my children are receiving a proper education. " -- emaxxman
Okay and how would one measure that level of achievement? As I've said before, everyone is quick to say "Teachers must be accountable" (which I agree) but no one ever says "...and this is what I think we should do". Teacher accountability and pay tied to performance is the new buzz-word - everyone throws it around just to get support or make a point, but they have no way of backing up their point. -- btownguy
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Merit raises are based on the performance of their current class:
0% raise - class average score on state proficiency test is 60% or lower
1% raise - class average score is 70%-79%
2% raise - class average score is 80%-85%
3% raise - class average is 86% to 89%
4% raise - class average is 90% or higher
That's one way you can do it. These are hypothetical targets. Heck, you don't even have use these targets. Just use SOMETHING.
Now before someone says "what if I have a special ed kid" or "what if a student has a bad homelife" and that the teacher is not responsible...that's how it goes. Some years you may have a wonderful class and some years you will be challenged. Salesmen still have targets to meet despite the sinking economy. There are always challenges to achieving our goals. A good teacher, like any other good employee, will find a way to meet a target.
The problem here isn't coming up with an objective target (that pushes teachers and students alike). It's the complacency and lack of ambition in the teachers' union as a whole. While there are some exceptions, most teachers (and other public unions) would rather accept a safe, guaranteed raise vs implement a system that offers greater/less reward.
So what if you're a special ed teacher and your class averages between 70 and 80 every year? You're then limited to a 1% raise because of your students limitations? Maybe that teacher is the world to the Special Ed student (or every student) and they're limited to 1% because their students are poor performers?
Also, what's the stop the teachers from making their tests/quizzes easier to reach the higher grades? Sure, the students will feel better because they're scoring higher and the teachers will get their raises... and we'll have students falling behind in the world.
The problem is not complacency (though it is an issue), it is the ability to come up with an objective system that takes into account a number of factors that may or may not be beyond the control of the teacher. Why should the teacher be punished because they're handed some rotten eggs?
Emaxxman what you say looks easy to you on paper, however, what you don't realize is there are teachers who have a way with special ed students that have many of them in their class every year. They have a special gift that enables them to help those you have disabilities. That is why they have a special education endorsement.
Also what would you do for the Life Skills teachers who teach our most vulnerable, children with developmental disabilities? They teach children who some people may think are "unteachable" I for one do not think anyone is unteachable, but some do. The kids do not make big measureable progress year to year, but they are learning how to live in the community. That teacher who dedicates her life to them would never get a raise under your plan.
Just the other day I witnessed a severely disabled boy follow a one step direction for the first time. He was responding to the physical therapist in a way I had never seen before by finishing the 1 step obstacle course. The boy could never pass a test, so I guess no raise for the PT! You might say well her boss would recognize her doing this and then she could get a raise,but you have to realize we do lots of good things that our bosses never see! The PT may not be able to repeat this with him for a long time or he may respond the same way the next time she sees him. There is no way to know, but work one day at a time and be dedicated to doing so.
The reasons why schools were never set up like a business is because it is NOT a business! The profits we make are educating our young. There are good and bad teachers just as there are good and bad businessmen/women. I am thankful I teach with wonderfully dedicated teachers that are not in it for the money, but do need it to live and pay taxes in NJ.
So what if you're a special ed teacher and your class averages between 70 and 80 every year?
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You asked how we would measure teachers' performance. I gave you one example. There is no rule that says all teachers are should be held to the same standard. A high school teacher has many classes and would have a different standard than a 1st grade teacher.
At work, we have S.M.A.R.T. goals defined each year based on the role of the employee:
S - simple - a clear and concise goal, ex: class achieves 70% proficiency
M - measureable - target is 70% proficiency based on NJ state tests
A - achievable - if the average is 70%, 75% is achievable with some work but 100% is not
R - realistic - school wants to increase average test scores to 80%, in 2010 push for 75% and 80% by 2012
T - timebound - 75% achieved by end of school year 2010
No one in a school system should have the same targets as someone else unless they perform the same job function as another person. Make the target fair for the students, forces the teacher to raise their performance over the previous year, but also tailor it to something that the teacher has a direct role in affecting.
And lastly, metrics are based on objective measurements....so the class average based on the teachers' own test would not be valid.
DC - the problem I have with the current school system is that it's impossible to determine whether you deserve your pay or not. If, as a teacher, we cannot measure your effectiveness, then how can we say you deserve a raise. I also HATE, HATE, HATE tenure. NO ONE should be guaranteed employment over another employee simply based on years of service.
Now, I will accept that you love your job and do it because you want your students to excel. My wife was a teacher. My mother was a teacher's assistant. My cousin is a teacher. Would you not want to be part of a system where you have the opportunity to take home more pay than a bad teacher? Why would you want to be part of a system where a bad teacher will get the same reward as you?
emaxxman - great 2 recent posts - I really like the S.M.A.R.T system.
Problem is, it makes way too much sense...
;)
TigerDad A lot of dead wood (older teachers that have lost the enthusiasm to teach) that just hang around because of the "Golden Handcuffs." Can anyone state with an honest face that the non-tenured teachers who were the ones who lost jobs were inferior to all tenured teachers?
The system is BS. It is about protecting teachers, not promoting student education.
emily
you misread what i typed! i was saying to you that I know you are a caring and sincere person. how did you get the oppissite from what i wrote? the sad part is the welcome to the new normal which i typed following but you didn't quote it? please go back and reread what i worte to you!! you are a caring and sincere person, i know that and was telling you that i know it.
...."so sad to say as you are a caring and sincere college educated professional who is charged with educating the next generation of leaders, but . . . . . ."
So despite the educational benefits of topics such as art and music and their proven impact on test scores, you're going to relegate them to unimportant positions? The NJCCCS says that these subjects must be taught. Would it not be in the best interest of the school to incorporate as many areas of the arts as possible? Maybe that student that isn't a good student or athlete is a savant in the arts.
how would your system cover topics such as Gym or Arts or Music?
btownguy
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What are the curriculum targets for gym, art, and music each year? Start there.
None of this is easy. Nothing worth doing is easy. Perhaps instead of constantly trying to find ways for "why you can't", you should focus on "what you need to do to succeed."
So despite the educational benefits of topics such as art and music and their proven impact on test scores
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I think you just answered your question...tie the teachers' performance to the same targets as math, science, English, etc...
Brother Dog
Gotcha... maybe I am blearly eyed by this thread, lol.
Who knows how all this will be resolved. For now I'm just getting ready to set up my classroom and shopping for school supplies. I will choose to stay in education as long as I can. Right now, I have no complaints even with the new changes. We'll see how far it goes.
Sorry I misunderstood.
"guess I am just so fed up with the unions and the overall crap that I see going on. There has been a lot of teacher whining in my community lately and it's starting to grate on me - especially since we could have gotten funding had they cappped their salaries here for 1 year. That and I just opened my tax bill....."
I am a MO teacher and do a lot of work with my Association. Teachers didn't whine. We were asked to open up our negotiated contract, which is a legally binding document that was negotiated in good faith between the Board and our Association, and overwhelmingly voted to not reopen it.
Why would I cap my salary? I have my own family to raise in Hackettstown. I pay taxes, too. And I vote on school budgets just like everyone else. I do not complain about it or point fingers.
Jay I don't know where you are coming from with private sector at $10 an hour. My daughter makes more than that and she is in college! My brother is in the private sector, college grad with a BA, who just retired at age 60. He had 10 weeks vacation coming to him that was all paid to him in a lump sum, pluse bonus and retirement perks! He also makes 6 figures! I have more education than him, but am paid less than him, since I am a teacher, and do not have any of the perks he has at retirement. When he was working he got 7 weeks vacation a year!!
When you say private sector job at 10 an hour do you mean working at a fast food restaurant as a food handler, not a manager?? With a highschool education or less? Nothing wrong with that but when you say private sector jobs I thought you meant in business like managers etc.
Please do not interpret this as there is anything wrong with working at a fast food restaurant I am trying to ask Jay about his note above.
Emily I too am planning on when to go in and set up my room too. I will probably need about 3 or 4 days this year. UNPAID of course, but it is ok because that is what we do. We know we need to do it so it gets done, regardless of pay. Does anyone in the private sector go into their jobs anywhwere from 1 to 7 days or more for free? Not many that I know of. Even the so called "bad" teachers go in early and set up! You see there are many other things we do that account for the supposed BIG money we make and benefits we fight to hold on to.
"negotiated in good faith" What a load of crap. Let's stop the BS. The system for "negotiating" is a joke; and if it goes to arbitration it is a joke as well.
$10 an hour was just to make a point. Teaching Gym is not rocket science. Teaching at a preschool is more difficult and what do they get paid and what benefits to they have?
You teachers need to wake up, but you are awake. The best defense against legitimate attacks is denial; and that is what all of you are employing.
Teaching Gym is not rocket science.
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Do they actually "teach" anything? Every gym class I was in, the "teachers' just gave us a soccer/football/volley ball, etc. and said go at it. Call it recess and hire two part time assistants to cover it.
Now health class, that is where they may actually do some work.
DC,
I don't know where you get your info from but there are many people in the private sector that work many hours and yes even days, for no pay, just to keep their jobs. My spouse worked for a major corporation and it was expected that they would put in 45 hours per week. That didn't include their lunch time.
Whenever there was a problem, they were expected to stay until it was fixed. Some nights he would be at work until midnight and there was no extra pay for all these extra hours. Sometimes he would have to go in on Saturdays, also for no extra pay.
After 16 years in middle management he made less than the average Mount Olive teacher with the same amount of years. He had three weeks of vacation per year and had to pay an ever increasing amount for health insurance, about 4 times what you are being asked to pay. Be grateful for what you have, it's being subsidized by people who don't have the same advantages that you have.
96k?! I don't give a fig what her masters degree is in. 96k could pay 2 brand new teachers who could be just a good (perhaps even better) than Ms. 96k. Granted, they could be terrible, but I'm guessing the odds are slim. The pension and the health benefits when Ms. 96k retires are what we need to stop for anyone entering the system on a go forward basis. It simply too much money. Teachers should contribute to a 401k and their health benefits. There is no reason why they are the exception to that. Oh yeah wait a minute -- that union contract. There's that pesky exception.
Great point two good or even better new young teachers could come in and take the place of the woman ready to retire. They would have to be young because who can live on $40/50k in this state? Unless of course it a second income. I would assume she would be more than ready to go after almost 40 years of service. It still does not mean that people living close to the school should not suck it up and drive their kids to school.
Better yet since we can replace one teacher with two for the price of one we can ship our children over seas and have them taught in a third world country for next to nothing. Think of how much money we could save. Sounds like a great way to do business. Maybe instead of shipping them out of this country we can hire some illegal aliens. It works in favor for the contractors that don't want to deal with unions. They can teach our kids since the teachers we have now are overpaid. We can pay the illegals less than half just as the contractors pay them half of the union guys. Things certainly need to change with the way our tax money is spent. I am wondering how some of the people on this forum pay their bills with money they don't deserve from their high paying jobs that might look easy from the outside? What skills or educations they have to back up their jobs that others may think just don't matter?
DC
"Does anyone in the private sector go into their jobs anywhwere from 1 to 7 days or more for free?"
So the room your setting up and supplys you gather together are the tools of your trade .
Much like The tools of any trade from plumber to nurse you all prepair for the job at hand , some tools are wrenches and some are books and lession plans and yet they are the tools you bring to the job so yes to the above question
I believe that any salaried employee, regardless of public or private sector, puts in hours above and beyond the usual 40 with no extra compensation. Sure there are exceptions, but anyone who's salary I have spoken with in either sector puts in the extra time without bonus.
DC wrote: I too am planning on when to go in and set up my room too. I will probably need about 3 or 4 days this year. UNPAID of course, but it is ok because that is what we do.
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This is where I have a problem with the "hourly employee" mentality that infects and plagues the salaried public employees. Your job is to prepare your classroom, lesson plans, and teach the students. Your salary covers that time. You ARE PAID for that time.
I took a vacation day today to spend it with my son for his birthday. Guess what? I worked late each day this week to make sure my work still got done. I'll work late tomorrow and I'll work late Monday. I won't get paid any extra.
I've been at my company for almost 17 years. Only now do I have 25 days off. No sick days. No personal days. I don't get paid overtime. I can't carry days over and end up with years of accumulated time off. I pay ~$400 a month towards benefits. I don't have a pension. I don't have tenure. I'm not guaranteed a raise no matter how good my performance is.
But hey, THIS IS WHAT I DO.
Emaxxman maybe if you had a union you would have sick time a little more vacation and tenure. Why do you do what you do then,if it is so bad?
I know alot of people who work overtime and do not get paid. I am contracted until330pm but I am always there until 5 and then bring work home and sometimes work until midnight. My husband can attest to that. I am sorry but I do not know anyone else who would give full days or a week at a time without pay.
The last post should have read:
As a teacher, I am contracted until 330pm but I am always there until 5, sometimes even 7 pm and then bring work home and sometimes work until midnight, just like many of you do. (My husband can attest to the midnights). I know alot of people who work overtime and do not get paid for it, but I do not know anyone else who would give full days or a week at a time without pay, except teachers.
Who said my job is bad? I don't have a bad job. I enjoy my job and love the people I work with. I get paid fairly well and have plenty of time off. If I'm sick, I can use one of vacation days w/o question...I just can't accumulate personal and sick days year over year like public workers can. I listed my job conditions as a rebuttal to your comment.
I don't have a problem with paying for good teachers. I don't have an issue with a $100K plus a year teacher or administrator for that matter. As I've stated before, I want a system where we can directly tie pay to performance.
Regarding my recent post, my problem is when teachers like yourself make it seem like you're doing everyone a favor by prepping your class for the next school year and that you don't get paid for it. You are paid for it.
BTW, I've stated it many times before but I'll repeat...in the current century, I see no need for a union. More explicitly, I see negotiations with any union as akin to legalized collusion.
It is normal DC, unless you are in the teaching fantasy land. After Y2K came and passed with little disruption, most companies moved towards modern programming languages running on Windows, Unix, and Linux servers. Quite a few "Old Timers" could not adapt and lost their jobs. No tenure or unions (for most) to keep them employed. Keeping them employed when they couldn't cut it, so they can sit around all day doing next to nothing?
No matter what you do, stay current. Heck, I learn something new everyday in my field (IT). Many bad teachers started as good teachers, but then got burned out; then just stayed around and existed (and being paid of course and building up that pension).
In the example above, a teacher with 10 weeks off in Summer, has to use the last 3 to 4 days to "set up" the class. That is still over 9 weeks off in the Summer. Please, please stop the BS.
I am sorry but I do not know anyone else who would give full days or a week at a time without pay.
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You must only have public employees in your group of friends.
Every salaried worker in my company does this. We have production system employees that are on call nights and weekends (and get called). I worked 3 years, at least 6 days a week, and 60+ hours a week because I was on a very aggressive project. I did not get paid extra. We have sales staff that work 7 days a week if that is what is needed to get the sale made. We have people (myself included) in global positions that require us to work in all time zones.
You can take credit for the extra hours you put. I have no issue with that. BUT PLEASE STOP THE CRAP about how no one else does it.
"I am sorry but I do not know anyone else who would give full days or a week at a time without pay."
I have been doing it for about 6 months already! Grant it I am self employed LOL!
I also know plenty of my friends who are salary and they have to do it or they have no job.
well im not sure what happened to this thread lol, it wasnt at all about teachers or their pay.
actually, i didnt even say $200 was too much or anything, i just meant that **I** dont have 200.00 that was all.
and as far as salaries go:
we live paycheck to paycheck, it took my husbands job 4 years to give him a raise and when he did it was 1.50, yet our health insurance when from 500/month to 600/month at the same time, so really it was no raise at all, just a comp to cover the insurance which was too expensive for us to begin with.
i hope that covered all the random stuff that popped up here lol
anyways.......
Fellow teachers - quit whining! Be happy you have a job & put the time in to get your classroom ready. The ones who will benefit the most are the students.
Look at your contract, you were paid until June 30 - I am sure that your school year ended before that & your local BOE did not make you work until that date, so in essence you were paid for days that you were not even there! See, it all balances out.
Jeesh...
Getting back to the original point of this thread - other schools in NJ have done away with free courtesy busing - http://www.nj.com/news/index.ssf/2010/08/nj_parents_face_high_costs_dri.html
Follow up - On the first day of school all seems to have gone well despite the elimination of courtesy busing - http://www.dailyrecord.com/article/20100902/UPDATES01/100902056/School+traffic+in+Mt.+Olive+runs+smoothly+despite+courtesy+busing+elimination
Well, it's not surprising that it went well. People adapt easier than they think they can. As a parent, I know that I would've found a way to get my kid to school.
Just to keep the high jacking up...it always irked me when the teacher's who worked in Hackettstown and we knew were supposed to be in their classrooms until 3.30 would have the first spot at the elementary schools at 2.55! Also one of the teacher's at the high school would leave their raincoat in the classroom so it looked like she was still there, but many times when I went to speak with her, she was no where to be found. I thank the teachers who stay until 3.30 and are available to parents.
And again the people of Mount Olive line up like good little zombies and let there School board run there life's.by letting them get away pulling the busing you could have stood up to the school board and said keep the busing fit it into the budget . now dont speed cause your late for work ,
The latest proposal is going to create quite a stir - changing the cut off date for kindergarten - http://www.dailyrecord.com/article/20100904/COMMUNITIES/100903077/Mt-Olive-parents-confront-new-kindergarten-cutoff-date
Caged Animal, probably would have made more sense for the public to vote for the budget at an expense of 200$ extra. What is the cost of a speeding ticket these days? And everyone would have been bused and safe.
Why not run for school board yourself or organize to vote the school board off? Or, how about keep complaining and voting down budgets that drive down school services?
Here's another example of how school districts are cutting costs - Hopatcong has now eliminated field hockey and golf and marching band are being funded by the parents of those kids who participate - http://www.dailyrecord.com/article/20100903/SPORTS08/9030301/Hopatcong-field-hockey-eliminated-by-budget-cuts
More communities cut courtesy busing - http://www.dailyrecord.com/article/20100913/COLUMNISTS21/100910092/Commuting-Back-to-school-made-complicated-by-lack-of-busing
Oh wow, so its def the kindergarten date is set back? hmm ok.
Ok so. I think its ok to set the date back, BUT i disagree with the reason why, being they did it to save money. My son started kindergarten at 4 years old turning 5 by October 1st and his maturity and such was questioned. Now i have a little one, also a September baby who I dont mind waiting till 5 almost 6 to start her in kindergarten, however I am concerned with how exactly im going to keep her socialized for the next 5 years without paying for a pricey preschool.
Now Mt. Olive is considering a fee based preschool program - http://www.dailyrecord.com/article/20100919/COMMUNITIES/100917098/Mount-Olive-weighs-fee-based-preschool-program
Mt. Olive is now going to reverse it's kindergarten cutoff policy and go back to the Oct. 1 date - http://www.dailyrecord.com/article/20101026/UPDATES01/101026036/Mount+Olive+school+board+votes+to+reverse+kindergarten+cutoff+policy
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