Lets fire all the teachers!

Wow. What a great idea BLD. And then maybe we could fire you and everyone you work with just for the hell of it.
While our schools do need help we should probably find the problem (too many chiefs making too much money with too few indians to do the actual work, maybe) and deal with that instead of just walking in and firing all the teachers. The school in RI fired their teachers after trying to work with a teachers union that would not bend. I've seen many posts on here complaining about "teaching to the test" or "too much standardized testing" and I agree there is way too much testing in our schools. Maybe we should cut the test and go back to the basics. How about getting rid of fifty percent of the adminstration in each school and use that money to either refund the tax payers or educate the children?
And no, I am not a teacher nor do I work in the school system. I am a nurse. I am just tired of seeing the crap our teachers are put thru when they really have no input in the school system. The principal at HHS presented the new schedule to the junior class before he presented it to the teachers. How is that for a slap in the face? You'd think the school would have the decency to first notify the teachers of the changes and then the students. At least then the teachers would have been prepared for the students questions.

Snow
Mar '10

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I have to agree too many Indians - In Hackettstown alone we have a superintendent, a director of curriculum, a business administrator, six subject supervisors, principal, vice principal, and dean in high school, and three principals for the elementary schools. All these people then have support staff. I don't know if it is state mandated that each district have all these positions. I'm sure it's over a million just in salaries for these positions. As a taxpayer I would feel more comfortable with job descriptions of these positions and how they actually impact the students' education.

Kate S.
Mar '10

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I will play devil's advocate....changing the schedule has been in the works for a while. It would seem that if the kids knew via the grapevine, the teachers would know and take a proactive role and speak to the principal. This conversation has been going on for years, and with 80 minutes prep a day (plus lunch), the teachers have plenty of time to check with the guy. Maybe if they stayed the 30 or so minutes after school as required by their contract they would have time to become educated on the changes. I apologize if you are one of the teachers who does stay, but as a parent in the parking lot, the exodus of the teachers within 3 minutes of the bell is amazing. JMHO...

jlwhs
Mar '10

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I agree with you jlwhs. The teachers should be sent packing if they are not meeting their contract. I've seen the mad dash to the parking lot just minutes after the bell but where are the administrators? Oh that's right, they left ten minutes before the bell to avoid the traffic. If I was the boss I would be out there sending them (administrators and teachers) right back in the building and if they refused they would be docked pay. I would not back down to the teachers union, afterall it's in the contract they agreed to. And although the schedule changes have been in the works for sometime I find it very disrespectful to show it to the student body before your own employees. Plus, how do the teachers help the students understand it if they have never seen it themselves?
One more question, where are all the twelve month employees on snow days/vacations/summer break? Surely they do not have enough vacation days in their contract to take off the entire summer as well as the Winter and Spring breaks.

Snow
Mar '10

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OH my my my. Who needs to pay for entertainment when you have HL!

Jag
Mar '10

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I'm not talking about the maintenance staff. They always do a great job with snow removal, taking care of the grounds, ect. I am refering to the pricipal, dean of students, department heads, special services/guidance department, any other administrators I missed and any secretaries that get paid 12 months a year to work with these departments. How many of their vehicles do you see there when there are not students in the building? Like I said, there is no way they have three or more months of vacation time each year. So the roads were bad and they cancelled school, but the maintenance staff made it there and cleared the driveway/parking lot/sidewalks so where are the administrators? I'm sure they must have things to do when the students aren't there, why else would they be 12 month employees? If they can only perform their job with students in the building it's time to put them at 10 month status and cut their pay accordingly.

Snow
Mar '10

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caged animal....do all other professions take a test every year???

snowed in
Mar '10

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I'm all for a dumping the union and tenure. Teaching should be like any other job, you have to show you are capable of meeting the requirements of a job to keep the job. As a nurse I have to take a test on blood borne pathogens and safety precautions each time I renew my license with the state (I have a NY license, don't know if it's the same with a NJ license) and keep current on CEU's.
To answer ImOnSaxton, I have no idea about performance reviews for teachers and if a poor review would override tenure. I would hope a poor review would allow a teacher, or anyone for that matter, to be fired but who knows what kind of deal the union has worked out. Maybe there is a teacher on here that can let us know.

Snow
Mar '10

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what does the school business administrator do for $166,000?

curious
Mar '10

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I think the idea of tenure is a bit of bunk if you ask me. Not saying that people should be fired, but there does need to be a level of accountability in a licensed profession. Nurses, layers, engineers, etc.. why should teachers just have longevity and come continued learning credits?

antimony3
Mar '10

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yes teachers have an annual performance review...and in many districts administrators visit the classroom frequently and sit in on lessons unannounced

snowed in
Mar '10

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i feel that i received a top notch education right here in good old nj, not entirely because of but also not despite of the teachers that i had. it took a combination of my parents and public education to make me the smarta$$ i am today.
of course tenure has it's abuses, similar to lifetime appointments for judges, but don't you (anyone) think that a teacher with years of experience is better at teaching our children because of the experience he or she has gained?

realitycheck
Mar '10

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i am not saying that i disagree, just wondering about other professions...i also agree with getting rid of tenure...there are many teachers who should not be teaching...and there are many teachers that need to retire...

snowed in
Mar '10

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Any of you work for say the telecommunications workers union or any other utilities union? I worked in the trenches alongside many non-teachers' union union members for years, and I have never seen a more lazy, self-entitled group of time and money wasters in my life. You think the teachers and their union are a drain on this economy, next time you pay your phone, cable or power bill, ask yourself why it's so expensive. It's because of the tens of thousands of union employees who get 15 minute breaks every hour, who don't lift a finger unless the task is explicitly written in their contract, and who spend the rest of their 8 hour day filing grievances against non-union employees. At least the teachers are trying to make a difference. Also, how many of you post to this website while you are on the clock at your own job? Unless you are self-employed, I'd have to guess that wasting time on the internet isn't in the job description you are being paid to work to.

rjd
Mar '10

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I'm with TigerDad. Comical isn't it?

Jag
Mar '10

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It would be comical if it weren't so sad - on both points.

On one hand, there are real economic and social issues to deal with regarding our education system and the reward scale for those participating in it, especially given the perks that are not typically available to the average tax payer.

On the other hand is a communication style that is being ridiculed as uneducated when in fact being "educated" is far more than just spelling and grammar. IMHO (yes, in MY humble opinion) the thought process and logic used to derive conclusions is much more important than spelling or grammar (although it does make it harder to not be dismissed easily by those who consider themselves to have a superior intellect).

"I hope people will research who is running for re-election, who is seeking to replace them, what they might have to offer, and then vote."
Dolly, I wish it were that easy - to replace the school board and have the desired changes propagate through a school system. But real life doesn't work that way because the "system" itself needs to be reevaluated; simply making personnel changes won't work. My solution is a bit more global in scope, cutting to the root of the problem instead of dealing with it's symptoms. But it's not palatable and so we'll continue to do what we always do and play the seesaw between equivalent evils ;)

justintime
Mar '10

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Maybe highschool graduates wouldn't appear uneducated with poor grammer if schools took the time actually teach grammer. Poor grammer goes all the way back to elementary school where the schools have also decided to stop teaching math. And even if you aren't a fan of my grammer or "writing style" you may have me as your nurse one day and won't you feel lucky to have the nurse that graduated valedictorian of her class.

And now back to the subject. Sounds like starting over with a brand new school board may at least help the situation, they are after all the ones hiring the teachers.

Snow
Mar '10

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Snow - Grammar doesn't have an "e" in it. Just saying.

Calico696
Mar '10

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250k, WTF!

Jay
Mar '10

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Snow - I would be worried if you or any other medical professional misspelled something on a medical report, a prescription name, etc. that could have detrimential effects on either my medical care or that of my family in your care.

Best case scenario - professionals are educated, literate and effective communicators.

TigerDad
Mar '10

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I can't speak for other union jobs, but when you have a classroom full of children you cannot take a break. I agree with many of the points made and I see the problems in education everyday. I am a card carrying republican and a public school teacher. I am not out to fight with anyone but I think the issues with our economy right now are hurting so many that we all look for someone to blame. While there are always a few bad apples, teachers do deserve some respect. The research shows that NJ public schools are among the best in the nation. Our children are blessed and I am blessed to spend my days with them. We need to focus on the good and there is so much of it!!

Emily
Mar '10

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It always amazes me how teachers want to be considered professionals yet run right back to the union the instant their contractual rights are questioned. Professionals don't have unions.

The business administrator has, for as long as I remember, blamed our lack of state aid on wealthier districts being included in our zip code. In 15 years' time, one would think that for that salary, plus the benefits and perqs, he would have been able to do something about it.

Tenure isn't the problem. There are good reasons for tenure, to protect an independent thinker, originally. The problem is that NJ has the most powerful teachers union in the nation.

Me again
Mar '10

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Jay -

Yes, $250, 000. But as the rest of my post went on to explain, the outstanding academic, artistic and athletic perfomance of our children, FOR ME, justifies his salary.

As we have all posted here on various threads in the past, what we care about is the quality of education being provided to our kids. In my opinion, tenure removes motivation, and is reflected in the academic scores of our schools, like HHS, both in the state rankings and now the newly released SAT scores for our current Seniors.

I have never been a proponent of throwing money into our school systems SIMPLY AS AN ATTEMPT at improving the quality of education. However, in my particular situation, (and truth be told, my myopic focus has and always will be my own son), moving from H'town area so he could attend MLHS for the kind of education he is getting, AND MAKING FULL USE OF, makes it, IN MY MIND, worth the $250,000 salary. Our superintendent, with the support of the parental community, has more than put his money where his mouth is, and the results speak for themselves.

YKW (ML Laker)
Mar '10

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Please don't start comparing all schools to Mountain Lakes...that's like comparing apples to oranges because they are totally different. I've known parents and students from that school, my husband subbed at the schools in that district and even worked a part-time job there when he was first starting out teaching. It's amazing that even though the school has the facade of being the best of the best, they have REAL problems just like we all do. Just because a school has good test scores, doesn't necessarily mean the kids coming out of them are the best educated.

Just like everywhere in life, there's going to be those few bad apples, but we can't forget all the wonderful, caring teachers that have worked there (and still work there). The best thing we can do is investigate our options, become familar with how things work by being involved and working together to make the system better.

tripsy
Mar '10

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Snow - If you have a problem with my work performance you can discuss it with my supervisor. And there are people I work with who are being laid off. For school systems and the related unions not to acknowledge the economic realities we all are dealing with is arrogant at best and ignorant at the very least.

BLD
Mar '10

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Wow, this is turning into a great thread, not because I agree with everything being said but because of the various opinions given. I happen to agree that targeting the "front line" is not usually the answer (even though I'm sure there are bad apples in most school districts). I've always felt the overhead - the busy work positions that are required just to adhere to some federal or state guideline - is the primary problem. Taken a step further, getting rid of the source of these requirements would do wonders for our school systems. As frustrated said above, a good teacher knows HOW to teach. That is where the action is at, and that is where the attention should be. After all, graduating educated students is the objective, is it not?

I wonder if, after all the comments in this and previous threads, we can all agree that blindly throwing more money at the schools is not in our children's best interest?

BTW, thank you frustrated (although I think you should change your screen name) for understanding where the efforts of a teacher should go!

justintime
Mar '10

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Well that's the real point YKW, to YOU. You would probably cut off one of your toes to guarantee your child is a success in life. My choice has been private schools even though I am a product of public schools and have done quite well in life. The parents of private school children bear the cost, period. In the public schools people like you pass on the cost of your pipe dreams and gamblers mentality to the taxpayers. If you (YKW) were bearing all of the 250k I would have no issue with it.

Jay
Mar '10

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worthy -
It's a shame your employer has sabotaged your evaluation process. I just completed mine for my staff, and received my own from my manager. On both sides of the fence, they were helpful. I was thrilled to be able to present my staff with theirs, because they improved so much from last year.

Jay -
I never stated that it is important to me that my son is successful, only that I offer him the best education possible. I, myself, am a product of a combination of both public and private. I do not feel that a private school education is necessarily better, just that some public schools are better than others, with a better work ethic and a passion for what they do. MLHS is that kind of public high school. What he does with that education only time will tell. He is his own person, a young man with his own plans for his future. I cannot force my will on him, just like I cannot force him to be the Honor student he is, nor force him to select all those AP classes he keeps chosing in his areas of interest (it's a gift that this school system has so many for him to choose from), nor can I stop him from participating in more sports than I think he should. I have had to step in and say, "ok, too much!" He wanted this school and I am and will continue doing everything I can do give it to him. He has his own goals and ambitions, with his own bar set wherever it is, and as long as he is making the best possible use of this opportunity, I will continue to work my ass off to keep him there. However, at no time will any of my toes be harmed in the educating of this young man.

You Know Who
Mar '10

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Hey, I said it many times and we all know it to be true. A child who is not "engaged" in school will not reach his/her potential. The 250k "guy" might do a damn good job, but we have to have a budget, keep costs under control. Otherwise, you have the situation where a few taxpayers are willing to pay "whatever" for an employee. The total budget must be taken into consideration. Just look at what happened to pro sports teams when they didn't have salary caps? This is a paid by the public and to throw money around like play-money is rude and selfish.

Jay
Mar '10

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YKW-I never said MLHS's location was the culprit, just that people tend to think that those kids walk out better educated because of the type of school is has become known as. I personally know someone who moved to Boonton township just before their kids went to high school so they could go to MLHS, which is ludicrous. Like Kate S. said (thank you Kate!), it's what each child and family brings to the education that makes a difference.

And for what it's worth, when I was in high school we were only allowed to take the SAT's and ACT's once...not multiple times to get the highest grade possible. I just think being able to "play around" with scores is not a good thing, let the kids take the same standardized tests once to accurately measure their knowledge.

tripsy
Mar '10

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i think it's great that they broke the back of the union in that highschool in RI. and it demonstrates a workable model that could be used here in NJ to clean house.

assign them (NJEA affiliated local teachers unions) up to but not exceeding an extra half hour of work each day, and offer them a reasonable compensation for it (30 dollars an hour). when the union goons who lead that local chapter reject that out of hand and demand 90 dollars per hour, it builds a case for the administration to fire the entire bunch of them. (which is what happened). now as the BOE and administration begins rebuilding the staff from sctrach, they can bring back the good teacheres and leave the poor ones behind.

this is a great strategy for rebuilding a failed school.

p.s. to YNW, the parent of the honor student at MLHS, we get it , your kid is great, our kids are just regular. but no administrator is worth 250 thousand dollars per year. We do not have the money in this state to keep going in this direction. compromises must be made. It is shortsited and selfish not to admit that.

BrotherDog
Mar '10

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So just what are we spending our money on ? where do we look to see where the money is spent ? and what job title gets how much ? can any one direct us to this info ?

CagedAnimal
Mar '10

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My parents moved out of NJ to Scarsdale, NY, so their children could attend one of the "best" school districts. We had to take advanced SAT classes all all but one of my classmates (178 students) attended college. 80% graduated with at least bachelor's degrees. The one fellow who did not went to West Point. 30 years later, I wish my parents had not made the sacrifices and were able to enjoy life a little more. Also sounds like you have your child's school career all mapped out. I hope he can live up to your expectations!

jlwhs
Mar '10

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YKH, do you mean to say that you don't just drop your kids off at the state babysitter's facility and expect that someone else will take care of educating them for you, as they see fit? My God, are you actually taking responsibility for your own child's future? I am aghast at that notion!

But yes, by all means relax. Chill out and let someone else decide what is best for your child and what they should be exposed to. Expecting them to be challenged in their education? Are you serious? Ha ha ha ha!!!! Too funny!!!!! Thanks for the laugh!!!!!

JK in case anyone missed it ;)

justintime
Mar '10

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MRSPipes, I tend to agree to a large extent. I am from Hackettstown and now in Phila. for 30 years. The best teachers would only go so far in many schools.

Bob
Mar '10

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BrotherDog,
I guess reading comprehension was not one of your strength in school.

jit -
Thanks ;) I got it. :) Never made use of a daycare, either... ever.

Our move was a joint decision, my son's, with my support. He's living up to his end of the bargain so I continue to work hard to live up to mine. Period.

You Know Who
Mar '10

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ykw-

you cannot understand wry commentary? and your take away is that the level of my comprehension is sub-standard? that's very funny actually. you take yourself a little too seriously in my book. have a beer or something will you? geesh!

BrotherDog
Mar '10

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so what about the firing of the RI highschool teaching staff?

is it a good technique that can be duplicated here?

or are we still talking about your son? btw ykw, is he doing well at school? it's unclear from your posts.

how was that beer? any good? if you tried it and then posted, i have to say that it seems like it didn't take, you will be needing another one. (or two)(some on here recomend the RollingRock, and i must agree that's not a bad way to go.)

BrotherDog
Mar '10

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This is apparently one of the worst performing schools in RI. Now they are getting applications from around the nation. I have a feeling the students will benefit from this move. Phrases such as "it takes a village" and "it's for the children" come to mind. Bill and Hillary Clinton love those two terms. It looks like this is a situation where the students will have better teachers due to competition for the position. If the best teachers get hired, then the students will be exposed to better methodology and proven successful learning methods.

John K
Mar '10

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What do you call 1,000 NJEA officals at the bottom of the ocean?


"A good start"

BrotherDog
Mar '10

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